Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 169:18-19. Interest: Lending Between Two Jews and a Non-Jew, Purchasing Loans; Prohibited Tricks

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Yoreh De’ah 169:18-19. Interest: Lending Between Two Jews and a Non-Jew, Purchasing Loans; Prohibited Tricks · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:00
  Here's what it is. OK, OK, good morning.
• 0:03
  We are continuing kuf somatet. We are in the middle of sif
• 0:09
  yurkhas. We are in the middle of the
• 0:13
  Rama. Actually we're about 1/4 through
• 0:16
  the Rama. It's if you're looking in the
• 0:22
  Shah, it would be between, well, looking at the letters of the
• 0:27
  Shah, not the Shah, the letters of the Shah, it's right in
• 0:30
  between the nun Zain and the nun khet.
• 0:34
  Between the nun Zain and the nun khet, the vel nagon is nun Zain.
• 0:40
  OK, Or it starts as a period, maybe right after it says
• 0:45
  Bahmenhag khakh period ulmoter lelova liksovi miserala sheni
• 0:50
  the pachos alpha pisha goy no teen lunuter oshiyuka lomar
• 0:55
  eniya ka kahilik beribi taba Mina goy call shavua.
• 1:00
  OK, we also touched upon this before.
• 1:02
  When you have this shaliak, this agent, this middleman, and he's
• 1:07
  just working. He's just an extension of the
• 1:10
  LOA in general. The main thing is the loan has
• 1:13
  to be between. It's all the same principle.
• 1:16
  A loan has to be between only one goy and one Jew.
• 1:20
  But this middle man, he's allowed to profit in between.
• 1:23
  He's working, he should profit. So he's making the deal and he's
• 1:28
  just taking a cut from this ribis.
• 1:31
  But that's OK because that's that's his cut.
• 1:34
  He's not. He's basically getting the cut
• 1:41
  this extra ribis directly from the goy.
• 1:44
  He's not there's no halva and there's no ribis between the two
• 1:47
  Jews. He's just making his cut by the
• 1:50
  ribis being higher from what the Goya is paying versus what the
• 1:55
  the lender the Jew is actually receiving.
• 1:58
  And there's nothing wrong with that.
• 1:59
  OK Gam I am yurtzu aloe Viva malva shaliyeka malva sheniya
• 2:04
  mashka niyada Rakhine henumiyada halove hazeh shahilva Allah
• 2:08
  ligoy Shari. It's OK is if the Malva, the the
• 2:12
  Mashgun is in the hands of the Shalia.
• 2:14
  It's also OK. Again, the of the Mashgun has to
• 2:23
  be in the hands of the Lova, the Malva, the Malva, the Jew, the
• 2:29
  Jew between the Jew and the guide.
• 2:31
  But the Shalia is allowed to hold the Mashgun.
• 2:34
  It could be traveling the whole time, or that's just where
• 2:37
  they're keeping it for safe keeping.
• 2:38
  But the end of the day, the real is on the malva.
• 2:43
  OK, all right, so the IM hit news, the IMSA Shah Malva
• 2:47
  Harishon. The Malva Harishon I believe is
• 2:50
  referring to the Shalia Lagoy Shuhuhil Vakshav Miesra Hashini.
• 2:57
  Who's the real Malva? It hire you Bakariuso Harishchut
• 3:04
  viadam the Martinus schomer kinam liot Keshawal.
• 3:11
  Now this Shaliak could also have some kind of akhayas.
• 3:17
  So to keep it really simple, we said you have to have no
• 3:19
  akhayas. And that's because the loan is
• 3:22
  completely between the Goit and the Jewish Malville, not the
• 3:26
  Shaliak. He's out of it because he's the
• 3:28
  one who's handing the money from Jew to Jew and we can't have
• 3:31
  him, you know, one of the main players, otherwise it'll be as
• 3:35
  if he gave the loan with Ribis. So we say the Akrayas has to be
• 3:39
  really with the Malva, the Jew, not the Shalia.
• 3:44
  However, we allow him to have some responsibility and in a way
• 3:49
  he should because otherwise he can just steal or lose the
• 3:51
  money. So he has that, but it can be on
• 3:54
  a level of just a showman and just has to be clear who at the
• 3:58
  end of the day that the goy really has to collect from the
• 4:03
  from the he must gets his mashikam.
• 4:05
  But the Malva really collects has loaned back from the goy and
• 4:10
  they are he's but the middle man.
• 4:13
  He he could take upon himself some kind of responsibility like
• 4:18
  a showell, even like a showmer, even like a showell, the yeesh
• 4:23
  omrim dafilu lahaknot halovahala Hashini kanui lo hamashgun, the
• 4:38
  ko maqam shahu now, so there are there are more ads and it could
• 4:44
  be you don't. The middle shiliak doesn't even
• 4:47
  have to actually give the mashko into the hands of the lova to
• 4:51
  the malva, to the malva, the Jewish malva, because he's
• 4:55
  taking right. The borrower is the goy.
• 4:57
  He's taking the mashgun from the goy, giving it to the malva, the
• 5:00
  Jew, this Jewish Shalia that you don't have to actually give it
• 5:06
  to him physically. As soon as he takes the money
• 5:09
  from the the shilia, takes the money from the Malva to give it
• 5:12
  to the goy, automatically the Moshkin that's in his hand in
• 5:15
  the shilia sands becomes acquired to the to the
• 5:22
  automatically becomes acquired to the Malva.
• 5:24
  Right Kenyan of a right. It's not a Mahira, but it's it's
• 5:27
  a Kenyan of a moshka, the Dover Torah, because according to the
• 5:31
  Torah Mao's konos giving over a transaction just by handing over
• 5:36
  the money, that's enough to make the Kenyan, it's a Kenyan on the
• 5:40
  money and it's a Kenyan automatically on the mash
• 5:42
  because it's all being done at the same time.
• 5:44
  But Al Gove de Miderabanon by Mashika.
• 5:47
  Now it's true Miderabanon, we need to do Mashika for this case
• 5:55
  also also dealing with the Goya, dealing with Ribis for this
• 5:59
  situation, right? It's not a really an issue of
• 6:03
  Mecca of Khoshin Mishbat. We're we're in your idea now
• 6:07
  we're discussing for the ISR of Ribes.
• 6:11
  So anyways, for our purposes, once he just does a, it's a
• 6:17
  Mashika on the mouse really or a Kenyan on the mouse.
• 6:20
  You don't have to also do a Mashika on the Mashika.
• 6:23
  OK, So that's what there are Mahals.
• 6:32
  OK, fine, now let's go on me who tov Shiakanello ayde.
• 6:38
  But he says it's better definitely to do a Kenyan ayde,
• 6:44
  some other some other mashika, either the Mashkun itself or
• 6:49
  some other Kenyanaga something else.
• 6:51
  Or you use another person or use another person to be Mazaka to
• 6:56
  him and you lift it up you someone else to lift it for you.
• 7:00
  And that could also work against the question if that works by a
• 7:02
  by a goy. But here you're doing it for the
• 7:04
  Jew. OK, I don't know Venet Ahman
• 7:07
  Halo Velomar Shyesh Lomashka. Now this middle guy, this agent,
• 7:18
  he's, if he's being honest and then what he's really doing,
• 7:22
  he's just working as an agent and the loan is really just
• 7:25
  between the goy and this Malva Jew.
• 7:28
  So when this agent comes to the Jew, this lender, he's allowed
• 7:32
  to tell him I'm this loan is not for me.
• 7:35
  This loan is for a goi and the lender's allowed to believe him.
• 7:40
  If the middle guy is lying, he's taking it for himself.
• 7:42
  So then he's doing a novera but here, but inside the lender, he
• 7:46
  is allowed to believe him and he's allowed to lend him with
• 7:49
  Ribis and take the smash gun even though he never met this
• 7:53
  Goi and fine, we learned you supposed best to have this best
• 7:59
  for them to have direct contact, know who the person's name is at
• 8:02
  least and to avoid certain issues that we mentioned before.
• 8:06
  The ain't you can trust him. You can lend to him unless you
• 8:15
  know he's a, he's a shyster, he's a, he's a, he's not so
• 8:19
  incredible and you know he's likely to be lying.
• 8:22
  And then you can't put yourself in a situation where you might
• 8:25
  be doing an Ester Dareisa. But if he's a Kasher Jew, you're
• 8:29
  allowed to believe him and move on.
• 8:30
  Lend to him and it's OK. Kachem ecardvarium Medina meilu.
• 8:34
  These are the main issues. Alpha.
• 8:41
  So Roma gave some hetarium and he says that's really the
• 8:45
  halakha and kavar pshata minhaag la hakel and that's the minnag.
• 8:50
  But Ain limhos biada osim kaniskar Ki dinahu.
• 8:54
  So whatever I said before, the Rama says you could be so mekhan
• 9:00
  and fine, all right, but I'll just, you know, I'm part of the
• 9:07
  Rama. We already pointed out the
• 9:08
  Ekhroni Murad did not agree, but that was in the beginning of
• 9:13
  your heights. Fine Nicole Zelo myri Ella
• 9:16
  Keshilo Zakafi Seoul Shalo velagoi Karen IM repeat now all
• 9:22
  about. So if the Zakafi.
• 9:31
  So that's when you combine the Karen and the rebeat together
• 9:36
  when you say 1 right? So the everything we said now is
• 9:41
  if you didn't put it all together, you you continue, the
• 9:48
  Ribis continues, the interest continues after there's a
• 9:51
  transaction or a change of hands and or it's the loan's going to
• 9:56
  be continuing. Everything we said now might be
• 10:00
  a problem. When it's a problem is if the
• 10:04
  repeat the interest is accruing after you change hands.
• 10:10
  As time goes. On right, a normal a normal loan
• 10:13
  where they as the time goes on exactly that's when then it
• 10:17
  accrues exactly that's what we said up until now of all all
• 10:23
  these cases when it's even us or is generally going to become
• 10:26
  mutter in Kavarza Kafi Searle, I Magoy Karen.
• 10:32
  If the Jew in the goy already established how long this loan
• 10:38
  is going to be for and figured out how much the Ribis is going
• 10:42
  to be and then came up with a price for the future.
• 10:46
  You're lending me $100 at the end of the month.
• 10:51
  Let's say you going to owe me 110.
• 10:54
  So that means right now you owe me 100.
• 10:56
  And if that's the agreement right now, even if you give back
• 10:59
  the loan and you prepaid, you still have to pay me that 110.
• 11:04
  So once it's already become a fixed number all together,
• 11:07
  that's what it means Karen, you come up with the amount of
• 11:17
  repeat until the end of the year Miata and as of now is already
• 11:23
  high of this amount. Anytime between now and the
• 11:26
  year, then you have to pay back and this is the amount with the
• 11:30
  ribis included. So then Hariyakok, you have a
• 11:33
  Karen. Shall you sell?
• 11:35
  So now all of this is as far as any future going on between Jews
• 11:40
  over here, any future transactions moving around
• 11:43
  Moskons, moving around Alva. It's considered like a new loan
• 11:49
  with 1 Karen because it's already been an established
• 11:52
  amount and now it's if you're going to take a loan now the the
• 11:57
  loan is more expensive now because you're taking it from
• 12:01
  the Goya that already has a higher price.
• 12:03
  But now at this point, it's like a loan for free, a new loan and
• 12:10
  you have to pay the full amount anytime and it's and there's no
• 12:13
  ribbus anymore. Bain Jehovah al amashkon O
• 12:16
  balomashkon, whether there's a mashkon involved or not.
• 12:20
  Asur lovote azem mishal habero vishala rebeat minakov khosman
• 12:26
  shalva Gabe de hava quilo no TE no har rebeat mikiso.
• 12:47
  Right? OK well you can't keep on paying
• 12:53
  more, but this is what it's just saying from whenever your own
• 12:56
  pockets from Jew to Jew in Karen Ulo Stam just sell it to him
• 13:02
  Stam whatever the the amount is Lukisha wrote Zeloxor Likakovo
• 13:07
  Yaksur Vietnam at I'm a little confused the answer go ahead so
• 13:20
  the. Only thing that can be done,
• 13:22
  let's say it was set up but the go ahead was the final.
• 13:25
  Amount, right, So there's a final amount.
• 13:27
  So now. The only thing that you can do
• 13:28
  is you're selling the whole on. And say, right, you can do this,
• 13:32
  it's yours, right? So and they can.
• 13:33
  Agree. Or that they'll talk about that
• 13:35
  they'll sell. That right so you pay the full
• 13:37
  amount basically what we said before I'm just having a little
• 13:42
  trouble reading it right now for some reason and so.
• 13:44
  Solve some the. Right, the entire Karen very be
• 13:50
  together it's. Just.
• 13:51
  Selling the right, it's like selling a whole.
• 13:53
  You know, it's up until now when we're talking about that
• 13:54
  whenever. I got up until this point from
• 14:00
  this date forward until it pays that you get right.
• 14:02
  Not send it anymore now I'm just saying you know on.
• 14:04
  The phone. That's it.
• 14:06
  We're done, right? And then later in another year,
• 14:09
  whatever. OK, Right, right.
• 14:12
  You can always sell this loan and then you can buy it back
• 14:16
  later exactly for a less OK, fine.
• 14:23
  It has to be a complete Kenyan, right?
• 14:25
  It has to be a complete sell because the the two Jews can't
• 14:40
  be wishy washy between the two of them because they can't be
• 14:44
  involved in Ribbus. It has to be a complete sell if
• 14:47
  they're going to keep getting ribbus from the glide after we
• 14:50
  do the kind of environment Mitim Shikashilo, Maot Yaxzor, VM
• 14:54
  Karenulo, Pedera Khaniskar. So you can tell them, listen,
• 14:59
  when it's time, we'll make a brand new Kenyan and I'll sell
• 15:02
  it to you then. No, he's a they're allowed to
• 15:13
  sell. You can't force him to sell, but
• 15:15
  you're allowed to sell, I think. And you're, you're paying the
• 15:20
  full amount and there's no, it's just, it's a full Kenyan.
• 15:24
  Yeah. Can you talk about now?
• 15:25
  Yeah, I'm telling you the full then later, you know.
• 15:29
  Yeah, you can talk about it as I think you can.
• 15:31
  You can talk about it. Yeah, I see.
• 15:45
  You can tell him that. You can tell him.
• 15:46
  Don't worry. If you have the money, I'll want
• 15:50
  to do it, but it can't be an absolute condition.
• 15:53
  The guy can be able to renege is what it seems.
• 15:57
  OK. Now if you have debts, they're
• 16:04
  often going to be a loans. But anyways, you have debts
• 16:09
  we're talking about typical the case we're talking about here is
• 16:16
  debts of non Jews. It's that's what we've been
• 16:19
  talking about till now. So we're talking about Kovot,
• 16:22
  let's say it could be a star. It could be with witnesses or
• 16:26
  just bell PE. But there's a real obligation of
• 16:30
  of a loan to pay back and it's and it's Peru.
• 16:35
  Shalmanah is says here basically a trust.
• 16:38
  It's it's you're basically trusting that he's going to pay
• 16:42
  you for it Sarikshi, or you're going to make a switch.
• 16:45
  What you want to do over here is move the Hove of a goy from one
• 16:50
  Jew to another Jew. And this is basically a case of
• 16:56
  Mayima Shlashtam. You have normally a case is 3
• 17:00
  people and you want to be able to move the, the money that's
• 17:06
  owed the debt from one person to another person.
• 17:10
  And technically, according to the Tara, there's no way for
• 17:14
  that to happen unless you can't just automatically in the air
• 17:19
  transfer a loan from one to another.
• 17:21
  So it's a Takanas Hakamim. I mean, they're Abana and they
• 17:24
  said you can do it to make it easier for everybody.
• 17:27
  But that's what they want to do. So if all three are there
• 17:31
  present and they agree to it, then that's your normal case of
• 17:34
  Mayima Shlashtam. However, there is no by a goi
• 17:40
  Khazal only established this din Derabanan, the kind of Derabanan
• 17:45
  by by Jews. So here it's not going to work.
• 17:49
  There's no way to normally transfer.
• 17:51
  You'd have to make like a new star, a new transaction.
• 17:55
  But there's no way to magically just move a hole from one person
• 17:58
  to another. So sari shio Marlow atatiftora
• 18:03
  goi bakhbakh nikova ko. So if these two Jews, the goy is
• 18:15
  not there, he doesn't know what's going on and you don't
• 18:17
  want him to know what's going on.
• 18:18
  Basically, the two Jews are making a deal.
• 18:20
  One is buying the Cove from the other one, but technically it
• 18:26
  doesn't work on it doesn't work technically.
• 18:32
  So what has to happen is the one who who's selling it is
• 18:38
  basically telling you one tells the other, listen, the goy owes
• 18:42
  you the money. Well, what's it called?
• 18:46
  You forgive him. So don't because I'm paying you
• 18:49
  money now. So you forgive him.
• 18:51
  So don't go collect from him. The goy will think will tell the
• 18:55
  goy that we did this thing and the goy is going to think he has
• 18:58
  to pay me. So I'm going to go collect the
• 19:00
  money from the goy and the goy's going to think that I, it was a
• 19:05
  proper well, the, the goy knows that we sold because I don't
• 19:08
  have the paper to, to show for it or you'll tell him.
• 19:11
  So the, the goy knows the Raja knows he has to pay me or the,
• 19:15
  the guy who's buying the, the, the, the loan, the debt.
• 19:20
  So therefore my DNA akum it works and he agrees to it and
• 19:25
  everyone's happy. Everybody wants it and so
• 19:28
  therefore there's no axela from a goy because the goy, we deny
• 19:31
  him, it works and he pays the money willingly and everybody's
• 19:35
  happy. So that's.
• 19:38
  But yeah, the the one who's selling is forgiving the loan
• 19:43
  and the other one is going to collect the loan that the goy
• 19:46
  wants to pay him or knows he's supposed to pay him.
• 19:50
  But really, Medintara the goy doesn't owe him anything.
• 19:54
  But but really. But it's 100% mutterb and it's
• 19:59
  not even let's SCD Shamaine because everybody wants this to
• 20:02
  happen and and it's OK, Fine. Let's go to your tet.
• 20:09
  You sell about a caveiro. I'm trying to think.
• 20:12
  I think it's good enough. Yeah, let's just go on your tet.
• 20:19
  You sell about a caveiro. Grandmother Halvani Maot Alu
• 20:23
  Shahim Shogoy. Basically, what's happening over
• 20:29
  here, these two Jews are not behaving.
• 20:33
  They want to make a loan from one Jew to another with Ribis,
• 20:39
  but they want to bring, but there's no way to have a loan
• 20:43
  from a Jew to a Jew with Ribis. So what they're going to do,
• 20:46
  they're going to say, look, I have a friend, he's a non Jewish
• 20:49
  friend. He's going to give you a mashkun
• 20:52
  and this and the mashkun is going to come from the non Jew.
• 20:56
  So they're they're trying to use this mashkun Qilu to make
• 21:00
  everything kosher, kosher vyoshi.
• 21:02
  But that doesn't work at all because at the end of the day,
• 21:07
  the the mashkun belongs to the GOI.
• 21:10
  But who cares? You're having there's 100% loan
• 21:15
  Ribisutsa probably or whatever the case is.
• 21:17
  It's a complete loan from Jew to Jew with interest, and the Jew
• 21:21
  was giving him the money and the Jew the Jew was taking the
• 21:23
  money. The fact that you threw in a
• 21:25
  mashkon into the vex makes no difference.
• 21:28
  In fact, a goy could be an Arif, but that doesn't help you.
• 21:33
  It still could be an esodereza. In order for it to be a mutter
• 21:37
  to do a loan with interest with a goy, it must be alone with the
• 21:40
  Jew to the goy or a goy to the Jew.
• 21:43
  You can't just the fact that you add a a mashkun or an are who's
• 21:48
  a non Jew has no bearing on the ICAR loan.
• 21:51
  I think that's says it pretty clear.
• 21:54
  So let's just read it again a little bit inside.
• 21:56
  So this Jew wants to borrow from one and take the the the mashkun
• 22:01
  from the Goya. And the whole thing is with
• 22:05
  Sarah and he's paying the Ribbus.
• 22:09
  Oh Shamala, pay me money by Ribbus and I'll give you a I'll
• 22:16
  get you a mashkun collateral from a goi, A goi, maybe a
• 22:20
  mashkun. And the Goi even brings it
• 22:22
  himself, the holy Kamasalova. And he transfers the money to
• 22:26
  bring it to him. Takbulotor shahim, he zo the
• 22:31
  loyutori beat klaw. So this is a takbulavar Shahim
• 22:35
  and it doesn't work. And it's it's it's Revis.
• 22:40
  Want to stop? OK, fine.