Latest / The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine / Daniel Rinaldi: Mental Health in the Alternative Music Scene

Transcript

Daniel Rinaldi: Mental Health in the Alternative Music Scene · The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I need the bright nice. You still got some minny
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: headed with soak is Chief and dime.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Best to let tea.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: So they will up.
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: We've got Daniel Rinaldi with us, Renaldy.
• 0:33
  Speaker 5: You know, if you know, if you said it at
• 0:36
  Speaker 5: a certain time in a certain place, I don't know,
• 0:38
  Speaker 5: maybe that's offensive now to say it that way.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't know, but maybe we're past that.
• 0:42
  Speaker 5: Who knows, who knows. At one point it was probably
• 0:45
  Speaker 5: super offensive to make fun of Italian. But you know what,
• 0:49
  Speaker 5: Jersey Shore brought that on to yourselves. And I'm a
• 0:51
  Speaker 5: huge Jersey Shore fan, but yeah, I mean, I'm just
• 0:54
  Speaker 5: saying I don't know if you've watched that show at all, Daniel,
• 0:57
  Speaker 5: but Jersey Shore really brought a lot of shame to
• 0:59
  Speaker 5: you Americans and so maybe maybe a little maybe a
• 1:02
  Speaker 5: little deserve it.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I I agree, I agree. The Jersey Jersey
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Shore was something was.
• 1:10
  Speaker 5: That the world is that we're like in there where
• 1:12
  Speaker 5: in the world you kind of like, you know, Northeast
• 1:15
  Speaker 5: America kind of thing.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Is that where you grew up in?
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: Well, I I grew up in Queens, New York, but
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: spent a whole lot of time in Jersey in like
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: the mid two thousands, so of course quite familiar with it.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: And also one day found myself at a New Year's
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: Eve party that was dj' by Polly D. So I'm very.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Deep so jealous. I'm so jealous.
• 1:40
  Speaker 5: I don't even like going to club music, but if
• 1:42
  Speaker 5: I knew like poly poly D was gonna be there,
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: I would absolutely go and show up.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: I love Jersey Shore. Colin knows this about me. I
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: love Love Jersey Shore.
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: Jersey Shore is one of my favorite shows of all time.
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: And uh, Colin and I grew up in like the
• 1:59
  Speaker 5: Midwest and South Dakota where there weren't a lot of
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: Italian people at all, and so any like any sort
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: of like culture like that where it's just like it's
• 2:08
  Speaker 5: totally foreign to us.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I just sucked, Like I just like ate all of
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: that up.
• 2:12
  Speaker 5: And so Jersey Shore was one of those where it
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: just felt like this is so foreign to what I
• 2:16
  Speaker 5: grew up with that I just I want to know
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: what this is like, like I want to.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: I wish I was was was a part of it.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: It was, it was a whole thing.
• 2:24
  Speaker 6: Mason. You need to you need to change your your
• 2:26
  Speaker 6: lingo on it and you need to say you're just
• 2:28
  Speaker 6: working on cultural literacy.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm just I'm trying to be more cultural, you know,
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: like I'm trying to trying to be a good human.
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: You know, I want, I want to learn of the
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: Italian American ways. I want to make damn good lasagna,
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: you know, I want, I want to make some good
• 2:45
  Speaker 5: bake CD.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Dude, I love a good bake CD.
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: You know. You know, well, Daniel, we didn't bring you
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: on here to just talk about Italian American culture.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 2:56
  Speaker 5: We brought you to talk about something probably even worse,
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: mental health in the alternative music scene. You know, I
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: can't imagine something that is probably known for just you know,
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: when I think of mental health, I don't think the
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: alternative music scene is probably like the prime example of
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: mental health. So but I will say, you are talking
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: to two people that are currently in therapy, and we're
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: also in the alternative music world. So if there's any
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: sort of you know, shining star, I do think, you know,
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: as much as Colin and I are not shining stars
• 3:35
  Speaker 5: in a lot of ways, we are probably trying to
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: do our best at least and being alternative emo kind
• 3:41
  Speaker 5: of people that are you know, leaning the way? But yeah,
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: I think I think the like intersection around mental health
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: in the alternative music world.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: There there's so much there.
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: Obviously, I think a lot of the culture of it
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: was built on sort of bad mental health and almost
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: even like stereotypes of it. I'm sure you have lots
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: of thoughts on all of that.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's.
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: That's why we want to talk, you know, talk to you,
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: and so we're excited. Obviously, Well we'll get into all
• 4:06
  Speaker 5: of all of those things, but before we dive into that,
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: let's ask the most, the most therapist question we could ask,
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: how are you doing to date?
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Daniel? How are you doing?
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: I'm doing well. Thank you for asking. I appreciate that. Mason. Yeah, no,
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: doing well. Can't can't complain too much. It was a beautiful,
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: rainy and cold day in the state of Massachusetts, so
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: that's always fun.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: But you live in Massachusetts.
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: Yes, you might be the first person I've ever met
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: that currently lives in Massachusetts. I just feel like Connecticut
• 4:39
  Speaker 5: and Massachusetts. I know that those states exist supposedly, but
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: like anytime somebody brings up where they live, almost at
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: no point does somebody bring up one of those two states, So.
• 4:53
  Speaker 6: Your cultural literacy is failing Mason.
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, clearly, clearly. I just got to get over to
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: the Northeast a little bit more, I guess.
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like it's not it's not one of
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: like especially like you know, if you're coming from the scene,
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: it's not one of the most chosen places from like
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: the the millennial, like you know, like there's a lot
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: of people in Nashville, there's a lot of people obviously
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: in California, Philly, you know, different certain places and likes.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's also pretty like you know, it's expensive
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: to live here, so it's not it's not necessarily.
• 5:30
  Speaker 5: In the nineties and two early early two thousands was
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: pretty you know, pretty solid though.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no solid, still still huge, solid metal scene in Massachusetts.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: Like I don't know if you guys are familiar with
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: the Palladium and Worcester, but that's like the hub of
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: metal in Massachusetts. If there's a metal show or a
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: hardcore show for that matter, it is gonna be at
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: the Palladium, and they do. They literally bring in everybody,
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: all right.
• 5:59
  Speaker 6: So I'm I'm very curious how how you got started
• 6:02
  Speaker 6: on this journey. You played in a bed light for
• 6:05
  Speaker 6: Blue Eyes, and you you did the whole touring thing,
• 6:10
  Speaker 6: you did the scene, You had pretty great credentials and
• 6:16
  Speaker 6: everything like that. So what brought you to the point
• 6:19
  Speaker 6: where you said, Hey, mental health is going to be
• 6:23
  Speaker 6: a focus of mine following a band?
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think it, you know it was. I
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: think it was obviously like as the band ended, it
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: was my own I think, my own struggles with mental
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: health and then realizing, like you know, you had mentioned
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: before that it really wasn't something that existed either whether
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: you were directly involved in the scene, whether you were
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: in a band or crew or whatever, or if you
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: were just a fan going to a show. It just
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: didn't exist. It existed on paper, right, So for thinking
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: like two thousands, like it existed in like T shirts
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: and wristbands and stuff like that, but like, it really
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: wasn't something that was focused on until we started, I
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: think seeing problems and issues crop up and and different
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: things like that. But for me, it was my own
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: probably struggles after not being in a band anymore and
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: kind of coming out of that going like, well what
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: do I do now? And everyone else that I knew
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: had graduated college and were getting their first you know,
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: real jobs, and I was kind of like, well, what
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: do I do now I dropped out of college, What's
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: going to happen? And I was, you know, pushed by
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: my my girlfriend then my now wife, really go back
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: to school and see if that was for me as
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: an adult, And that's what it ended up being. And
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: it's kind of just like taking what I love the
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: most about being in a band, which was human connection
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: for the most part, which was like, you know, every
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: day you're meeting new people, you're talking to them, you're
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: hearing their stories. And it was kind of taking that
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: and kind of just filling that void with this kind
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: of new path, which was mental health. And you know,
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: pretty much you're sitting down having conversations with people you
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: know daily, So what better way to connect to humans?
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: So that was kind of the route that I went.
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was just about to ask, like, I would
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: imagine there's like some skills, you know, as much as
• 8:28
  Speaker 5: we kind of think like being in a you know,
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: metal band versus being a mental health professional is probably
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: like two very different professionals, and they probably are in
• 8:36
  Speaker 5: very you know, certain in certain ways. But I would
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: imagine there are certain things that are happening between both
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: industries or both kind of professions, if you will, That
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: probably do relate a lot. And like you said, like
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: being in a band, especially a touring band, you're meeting
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: lots of different people You're meaning fans that might have,
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: you know, their own stories of why that your music
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: connects with them, and you hear those stories, and that's
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: you're probably the same. The kind of conversations you're having,
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: especially with fans, probably feels somewhat similar to the kind
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: of conversations you're having with maybe a client who might
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: be experiencing depression or whatever other you know, sort of
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: thing they might be going through.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent, especially now where my my main
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: focus is based in artists, crew and creatives, right, Like
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: that's the majority of my my caseload and what I do.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: So there's insane parallels now because not only is it
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: you know, I know what they've what they're kind of
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: going through on the road, and I know the language
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: and what they've been through and know that it's not
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: this wonderful vacation that you know someone from the outside
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: looking in might see. So it kind of there's there's
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: a lot of parallels now, but even before, Like you said,
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: they're you know, the you know, talking to someone out
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: at a merch table and being able to hold a
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: converse station and really listen to their story and why
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: they came to a show or why a song affected them.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: Does translate to when you're sitting across from someone and
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: they're telling you some of the most personal things that
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: are going on in their life, and the ability to
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: kind of sit with them in that and offer them
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: a different perspective or offer them just a person to
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: sit with them through that is very similar to certain
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: things that I remember doing when I was on the
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: road with fans that were like, hey, this song really
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: changed my life, or I drove three hours to be here,
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: I'd love to spend some time talking to you. And
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: it's like, you know, you went outside by by your
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: bus or van and you talk to those people and
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: you gave them that time. So it's there's a lot
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: of similar things there.
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And you know, I think you brought up something
• 10:50
  Speaker 6: earlier that was kind of interesting to me that I
• 10:53
  Speaker 6: hadn't ever thought about, And that's this idea that well,
• 10:57
  Speaker 6: the fans have all these you know, these mission and
• 11:00
  Speaker 6: these organizations that are aiming to try to you know,
• 11:04
  Speaker 6: talk someone off a ledge, or to reduce self harm,
• 11:09
  Speaker 6: and and and to and to try to you know,
• 11:11
  Speaker 6: you know, bring mental health to the forefront of everything
• 11:14
  Speaker 6: you think of, like to write love on our arms
• 11:16
  Speaker 6: and things of that.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Sort of right, right, But.
• 11:21
  Speaker 6: The individuals that are kind of the reason for people
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: being at festivals and shows in the first place are
• 11:28
  Speaker 6: often the ones that are struggling as much, if not
• 11:31
  Speaker 6: more than anyone else. And I'm curious where the I'm
• 11:40
  Speaker 6: curious why that that hasn't been a thing, like why
• 11:42
  Speaker 6: why don't we have especially when we're talking about like
• 11:44
  Speaker 6: the Emo scene, which is I think was more along
• 11:47
  Speaker 6: the lines like where bed Light for Blue Eyes is, yeah,
• 11:50
  Speaker 6: kind of stationed. Right When we think about the Emo scene,
• 11:55
  Speaker 6: I mean, we're talking about as emotional of lyrics as
• 11:58
  Speaker 6: we can possibly get, right, so it becomes a cathartic
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: again for the fans, But is it still cathartic for
• 12:05
  Speaker 6: the artists? Is it after you played it a thousand times?
• 12:08
  Speaker 6: You know, from your personal experience and then also from
• 12:12
  Speaker 6: your professional experience. First of all, why do you think
• 12:15
  Speaker 6: there wasn't a whether it hasn't really been much of
• 12:19
  Speaker 6: a focus for artists mental health and be Can it
• 12:29
  Speaker 6: be normalized in a way that it is commonplace right right?
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: I think we're getting there. We're a long ways away.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: There are companies that exist now that are that are helpful.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: There's a company called company called Backline who does a
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: lot of great work. I work with them often, you know,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: and they're there for crew and artists to kind of
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: help get them set up with any type of help
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: they might need. I think when we talk about, you know,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: the emo scene, and we talk we go back years,
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: it was it was unheard of, right, Like it wasn't
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: there was. I mean there still is stigma surrounding it,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: but no one talked about like you talked about it
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: in songs and people related to it, but no one
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: was really using their platform to talk about mental health
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: or talk about things directly. And I think that was
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: based on stigma based on where we were in the
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: culture at that point. We weren't talk especially if you
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: talk about like a male dominated space, men weren't talking
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: about their they're still not talking about their mental health,
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: and especially back then, you weren't having these larger than
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: life characters talking about their mental health and talking about
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: the other things that they were going through, because then
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: you'd have to start really talking about some deep, interesting
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: topics that no one was ready to talk about. Right
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: If we talk about like alcoholism in the scene, if
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: we talk about inappropriate behaviors in the scene, all that stuff, right, Like,
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: then you start having to talk about that. Obviously, later
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: on this stuff started to kind of come up and
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: we started to hear about it. But back then it
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: was like I remember being on the road and dealing
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: with things and like talking to like labelmates are talking
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: to people at the label and they're like, you're you're
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: an eighteen year old, nineteen year old dude on tour,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: like suck it up, like you know, it is what
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: it is. And now we're getting to a place where
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: artists are more willing to talk about it. But there's
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: still not this from the inside help that I think
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: they're searching for. Right there's a lot of outside companies
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: that are great that do work within the industry, but
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: I don't think there's enough people that have been through
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: it that can relate to it, that can help them
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: feel like they're not struggling and battling this alone, that
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: this is something that they can kind of sit with
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: someone who's who's been through it, who knows the who
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: knows the lay of the land that can help them.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: But we we are getting to a place where there
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: are more people talking about their mental health, talking about
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: you know, the things that need to be talked about,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: from artists to artists, crew to crew. But also I
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: think it's it's just as important for the fans to
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: hear that too and know that these people that are
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: up on stage or they're like sure, it's really it's
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: really awesome and sexy to see the tour lifestyle, right
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: and the person up on stage, But once we get
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: to know that they're human and they struggle just like
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: we are, it reduces that that petis still dynamic, and
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: it reduces a lot of what we see in the scene.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: So where we're getting to a space we are a
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: far way away from that perfect world, but we're not
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: where we were in you know, say two thousand and six,
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: right right.
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: It's it's interesting the way you talk about this because
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: especially when it comes to like let's say the Emo
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: scene again, which like your band was pretty involved in,
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: especially in that you know, like early two thousands phase
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: of like you know, especially like Warped to Our Era right, right,
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: or the height of Warped to Our Era one of
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: the things that we would often like, it's interesting you're
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: talking about like a lot especially like male dominated kind
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: of music again, which was a lot of like warp
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: tour music that you know, Colin and I listened to
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: growing up. There was a lot of lyric a lot
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: of lyrics that would talk about like struggles that one
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: was going through, you know, especially when it comes to
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: like breakup or whatever, right.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: But in a way where.
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: I'm curious, like what your thoughts are on this, where
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: there was a lot of like sort of honesty or
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: openness about one's emotional state. Hence EMO, Like you know,
• 17:14
  Speaker 5: it was like it was emotional, it was emotional hardcore, right,
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: but there was something about it was like a sulking
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: of it, Like it was almost like a glamorizing of
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: the fact that I'm going through something difficult.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: And because of.
• 17:26
  Speaker 5: That, it was like I got to lean into that
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: difficulty in a way where I'm not trying to like
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: actually improve on it. I'm just trying to like, hey,
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: woe is me kind of type of thing, And I
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: know I'm curious, like your thoughts on that, Like, there
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: clearly was a honesty and openness about one's emotional state
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: in that world, especially during that time lyrically, but it
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: doesn't it didn't feel the same way as like somebody
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: who was actually using their their lyrical content as a
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: way to like actually process their own emotions.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Am I do you think I'm right in that?
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: No? I think I one hundred. I think what was
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: going on then was a lack of tools and resources, right,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: So a lot of us, we're all finding our community
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: and finding our spaces in those concerts and at those
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: shows and those festivals. But there was a lack of
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: tools and resources. So you can have the lyrics, or
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: you can go to the show and screen the lyrics,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: and that's that's great. You find that the language that
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: that you that is kind of going on in your
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: head and you're finding the words for it. But then
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: what right then you just go right back home to
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: the abusive parents, or you go right back to the
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: green room to the bottle of alcohol, or you go
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: So there was there's no tools there to to kind
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: of Okay, you did the thing, you said the thing,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: Now what where it was you said the thing? And
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: now we're there's nothing there for you to kind of
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: find safety in other than I'm just gonna keep coming
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: back because if I maybe if I scream into the
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: void loud enough, someone will help me. But there was
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: no help there for any of those people to say like, hey,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: I could see you're hurting and I could see you're struggling.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: Here's this resource that I can give you, or here's
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: this thing that I can give you. And now we're
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: in a space where that happens more, where we have
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: different companies that like Hope for a Day or Heart
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Support or these other companies that are apt shows that
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: are giving people a space to meet at a merch
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: table and go like, oh, hey, I've never been to
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: therapy you have, can you tell me about it? Or
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: an artist might message me, or a crew member might
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: message me because they see my stuff on on Instagram
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: and they might go, oh that didn't that wasn't there before.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: Let me let me see if this is if this
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: is right for me? Where I think where we're where
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: we're talking about, like it was like you got to
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: a point and then there was this giant barrier there
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: that if no one knew how to like climb over it,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: or no one knew how to find their way past,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: like getting lyrics out, getting this pain out. But then what.
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: It did seem like, especially during that era, you know,
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: especially with like an organization like to write Love on
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: Your Arms, which.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: We mentioned just a bit ago.
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: It my sense of like the mental health world was
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: it had to be that bad before you got the
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: mental health uh kind of therapy that you needed, right, Like,
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: it had to be to the point where you're self harming, right,
• 20:56
  Speaker 5: And I think maybe and I would imagine I'm curious
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: like your thought on this, but my sense was during
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: that EMO era, at the height of it, it seemed
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: like there was a sense of we only need help
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: if it gets to that point.
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: Obviously we're very aware at least.
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: At least some of us are aware that, like there's
• 21:17
  Speaker 5: so many things that you need to do beforehand before
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: it I should get to that point, right, But I'm curious,
• 21:22
  Speaker 5: like what was that like a sense that you got
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: as well, that like there's a reason why. And obviously
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: the work that it's right, Love on her Arms was
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: doing was important and incredible work. And also it seemed
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: like we had this like weird or wrong Miss misinterpretation
• 21:39
  Speaker 5: that it had to get to that point of self
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: harm before we actually sought out help.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you. I definitely think there was
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: this kind of space in the air where it was like, hey,
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: if this is like, well I'm not there yet, Well
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: I'm not. I'm not here yet, right, I'm not self harming.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: I'm not you know, talking about you know, ending my
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: life or anything like that. So I definitely think there
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: there was that space, and then like another part that
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: like it maybe it's maybe it's a little bit more
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: of a hot I don't know, it's probably not a
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: hot take, but like, I think there's there's part of
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: it too where a lot of those companies, especially then,
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: you know, there was a lot of marketing and a
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: lot of like cool T shirts and a lot of
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: things that I think muddied the waters where it it
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: like instead of in instead of people fight like doing
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: the work right like and really figuring out where they
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: needed to go and what they needed to do, it
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: was like, well, I'll buy the shirt to help the
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: next person, and I'm gonna wear this shirt because this
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: is what we're all doing, or we're gonna wear the
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: risk band. I'm guilty of it too. I had the
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: I had like the thick rubber black wristband that that
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: most people had, and I think, like, you know, it
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: was just like it became something to be a part
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: of instead of just like the scene and the emo
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: scene and things that we've seen kind of go past.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: You know, it was like something that you know, you
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: you were putting a price tag on Steph, and you
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: were putting a cool design on Steph. But we weren't.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: We weren't making any sort of waves that were sticking
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: that we that maybe could have happened if things were
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: approached in in different ways at at that time and
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: even now.
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: So going going along with that, you know, we talked
• 23:49
  Speaker 6: about the stigma, and I remember early two thousands of
• 23:52
  Speaker 6: the stigma of mental health and help for mental health
• 23:55
  Speaker 6: was was certainly not what it is today. Do you
• 23:59
  Speaker 6: think that the marketing of of mental health products or
• 24:08
  Speaker 6: I don't know if a product is the right word,
• 24:09
  Speaker 6: but I does feel like that, do you think that
• 24:13
  Speaker 6: that was maybe something that helped to relieve some of
• 24:17
  Speaker 6: the stigma, Because if I think about today and you
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: think about like especially millennials, I mean, we are significantly
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: more therapy we go to therapy. I was gonna say therapies.
• 24:30
  Speaker 6: We go to therapy much more often now than any
• 24:33
  Speaker 6: generation before us, at least in America. So did we
• 24:37
  Speaker 6: maybe at least in some part buy into this marketing
• 24:41
  Speaker 6: ploy and then actually did find some help where it's
• 24:45
  Speaker 6: almost like a delayed effect.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: I think there's it's twofold. I think from this standpoint,
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: like you know, like we saw what are parents and
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: family and older family members didn't do. We saw what
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: our older siblings didn't do right, and that that led
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: way for us to become more educated in what what's
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: going on? Why is this happening to me? Or why
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: do I feel this way? And the information was there right,
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: like we were able to access that information way easier
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: than you know, our uncle who's you know, seventy five
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: years old now, where it's like there wasn't that, There
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: wasn't college wasn't necessary, like there was none of those
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: things happening. And as we all you know that are now,
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: like you know, late thirties forties are looking at it
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: going like, well, I don't want to do that. I
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: want to make sure that I'm taking care of this thing,
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: or why do I have trouble speaking you know, to
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: a group of people, or why can I not have
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: a relationship that lasts or you know, all of this stuff.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: I think that's part of it. And I also think
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: too obviously companies saw a market and said, how do
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: we make this, how do we make the entry point
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: to this the easiest thing possible for people who are
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: in school, people who are you know, getting their getting
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: their jobs, people who have families, people who don't have time.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: So that's where like the better helps came from, and
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: all of those things came from, for better or for worse, right,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Like I think that you know, there are there is
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: a lot of information out there that those companies aren't
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: the best. But you know, I think there was a
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: level of it, you know, being marketed. And obviously now
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: right like we're going to get off of this and
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: there's going to be one hundred ads somewhere somehow that
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: we're going to see that it's going to be like
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: you know, get a therapist now or whatever it is,
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: and it makes it so much easier to access that
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: before it was like you in the two thousands, right,
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: you went on MySpace or tumbler and shouted into the
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: void and hoped that somebody maybe liked your stuff or
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: would talk to you about it. And now it's like
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: you actually there are things if you look up you know,
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: mental health or therapy, am I A hundred things are
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: going to pop up. So access is a lot easier,
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: although financially access is not easier, but there's a lot
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: more out there that's being marketed to you or being
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: shown to you that it makes the entry point into
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: therapy or any mental health service a lot easier.
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So it does seem like there was a like destigmatization.
• 27:40
  Speaker 5: I feel like I'm mispronouncing that, but there was something
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: that happened at some point where to the point where
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: it was like what Colin was saying, now like now
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: it feels like almost like a like a hip thing,
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: Like I mean, there's like a whole segment of the
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: population where it's like if you are somebody who is
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: in therapy, that puts you on a pedestal in a
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: way that like if you aren't, like there's something weird
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: about that that I found interesting. But there like it
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: got to a point where like it used to be
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: like I mean you go just even twenty years ago,
• 28:13
  Speaker 5: if you were to say you were in therapy, there
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: was like a stigmaization of that, whereas now you almost
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: have to be in therapy if you want to be
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: like somebody who's like like a person that's like datable
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: or whatever.
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: Right Like, there's there's something about like it like totally turned.
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: And what's interesting is whether that's like the emo world
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: or not, or maybe it's just generally what happened in
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: the culture. There is something that seems to be kind
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: of like along that line of like people who really
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: grew up in that emo world that the millennials that
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: did they I mean, you know, to the ill that
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: they were back in like the warped tour days. There
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: was something that must have changed where it became a
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: not only a popular thing, but something where at least
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: there is a a.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Stigmaization of it.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I and I often think about this because I wonder.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: I often wonder about when that switch was or how
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: that or how that happened, And like part of me
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: is like we started seeing better examples of it in
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: media and in places, right like, you start to see
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: shows that break down the stigma because the right or
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: like even for when you think of like a lot
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: of millennials or a lot of people that were from
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: the scene don't necessarily want the seventy five old white
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: guy behind the oak desk, what his degrees on the wall.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: They want someone who's got colored hair and looks like them.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: So when they when they started to see that that
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: is possible, I think a shift happened, then one and
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: then two. I also think about how much like things
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: like COVID and the pandemic change things, where we started
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: to see people, you know, people were home, a lot
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: more people were had more access to reflecting on themselves
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: and reflecting on the things that were going on and
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: saying like, maybe this is my time to explore this.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: And then a funny one is then they also started
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: to see like the separation of now we know everything
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: about everyone because now everyone's got a soapbox and I
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: don't want to be like my cousin or I don't
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: want to be I want to make sure that I'm
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: not I'm breaking the generational curse or I'm breaking the
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm making sure I'm taking care of this trauma.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: I don't want to be like Uncle Steve on on
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: Facebook right now, that's ranting. I want to go and
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: use this and use this time in a positive way
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: and get help for some of the things that maybe
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I've been dealing with or now that I'm in this isolation,
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: my depression is going way up and my feelings of
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: this are going way up. I need to talk to somebody.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: So I think I think there there was a lot
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: of stuff, But I also think, like media wise, too,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: we started to see it wasn't just a thing where
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: it was like ooh, like you said, ooh, you go
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: to therapy. Why, it was more like, oh, like that's
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: really good that you're working on yourself and this is
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: actually what therapy can look like. I kind of like that.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: I kind of dig that it's not this or it's
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: not that. And again, like it's like you said, it's
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: become this like giant green flag right where it's like, oh,
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: you're working on yourself and all of the trauma you've
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: been through. Great. I love that. I'd rather that than
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: someone who's not doing that.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Go ahead.
• 31:49
  Speaker 6: The only thing I don't like about it is when
• 31:50
  Speaker 6: is when everyone starts talking in therapy speak all the time.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: That's that's a tough one. And again that's that's a
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: lot of social media that's a lot of exact TikTok
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: famous like therapists and doctors and stuff like that, where
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: you watch that and you just kind of like utilize
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: that to kind of like self diagnose or just slip
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: that into conversations. I mean, I deal with I haven't
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: dealt with it in a while, but early on, you know,
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: I'd get, hey, yeah, I was on TikTok and I
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: saw this person talking about this, and I was like, no, like,
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: get off of TikTok, Like that's not a place that
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: you should be like self diagnosing yourself and possibly in
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: the wrong, in the complete wrong way, or listening to
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: people who don't They don't know you, they don't know
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: your situation, and you're going by just what they say.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: You also don't necessarily know their credential. You also don't
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: necessarily know what they're in it for.
• 32:55
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: Most of people on social media are in it to
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: make money. What are they going to do to make
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: money and get followers and get people to to buy
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: in is they're they're going to say some stuff that
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: maybe isn't always the best best course of action, Right.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: So I think I think that had that had a
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: lot to do with like that therapy speak, or when
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: you hear terms like gaslighting all over the place, or
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: you hear all these other terms where you're like, do
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: you even really know? I don't know if you know,
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: but you probably you heard it four million times here,
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: so now you're using it, but you're using it in
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: the wrong way, or like you know, oh, this person's
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: a sociopath, this person's this, and it's like.
• 33:38
  Speaker 6: You have you're a narcissist.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like narcissist is another big one where it's like
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: I have people come in and they're like, oh, my
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: partner says I'm a narcissist, and I was like, are
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: you are you? Like, where is the evidence of that?
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: What is going on? Well, we fought the other day.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: I was like, well that's not narcissism, Like, you know,
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: we have to we have to make sure that we're
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: that not just throwing these out there, because there are
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: things that can that could easily become someone's identity very quickly,
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: and the last thing you want to do is have
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: something like that becomes someone's whole identity when it doesn't
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: need to be right.
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: So, actually, what's interesting what I was gonna ask is
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: like on on the like flip side of that or
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: like the reverse of that is so so what you're
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: talking about is like there's a tendency to sort of
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: over therapize oneself or other people. Uh, what I find
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: myself maybe struggling with in part because I respect my
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: therapist so much, Like I think I think the world
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: of her. I find myself seeing her as like an
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: authority in my life the way that maybe other people
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: would see like a pastor in their life, you know,
• 34:51
  Speaker 5: some other authority in their life, where what she says
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: feels like, oh, like, but my therapist said this, Like
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: that must mean something if my therapist said it, and
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: I'm curiously and I again, like this is something.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm being open and honest right now.
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: I feel like I might struggle with that, while I
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: also want to like hold up the fact that, like
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: I think what she says is like really legitimate, important, reasonable, rational,
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: you know, like she like I think she's wise and
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: clearly knows her stuff. And because of that, I find
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: her to be an authority in my life because of
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: those things. And at the same time, I don't want
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: to like put her on this pedestal that now she's
• 35:31
  Speaker 5: sort of I'm using her authority to like minimize or
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: to sort of erase any other dissenting or critical thought
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: that you know, she might be critical of. So I'm curious, like,
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: maybe for you as a therapist, like, how.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Do you navigate that?
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: You know, if there was, let's say there was somebody
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: a client of yours that like puts you on that
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: sort of like they really trust you and therefore they
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: like really put you as an authority in life, Like,
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: how do you navigate that as a therapist. I'm curious
• 36:03
  Speaker 5: because again, I feel like I struggle with that as
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: like a client, because I just respect the hell out
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: of my therapist.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: One thing that I always tell clients is you are
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: the one at the end of the day doing the work.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: You are the one I see you for an hour
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: once a week, if that right? A lot of times,
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: maybe I see someone bi weekly, maybe I see someone
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: once a month the other days of the week. Is
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: all you, right? And I want to instill into my
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: clients and the people that I work with that the
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: only reason that the therapy or and this is strictly
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: my opinion, right, the only reason that I think the
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: therapeutic relationship works so well most of the time is
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: because or that you value it is because it's you're
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: sitting with someone who has a different perspective and has
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: lived a different life. It's not necessarily that they're this
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: wise person living up in the mountains that has experienced
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: so much. It's just because they're not in it like
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: you're in it, and they can they can pull themselves
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: away and live in a parallel and go, I can
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: see this differently because I'm not going through it or
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: I'm not this doesn't pertain to me. So I can
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: give you something that you're not seeing, which in turn
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: ends up being like, oh, my goodness, light bulb, light bulb,
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: light bulb, which it makes sense to why you or
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: somebody else or even myself. I go to therapy as well, right,
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: like even myself where there are times where I'm like,
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: oh my goodness, this dude's a genius, like why didn't
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: I think of that? And I and a lot of
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: times I have to remind myself to not put someone
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: on a pedestal, because again, at the end of the day,
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: it's it's good to understand that, yes, this person is
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: in your life and they play an important role in there,
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: but you are doing ninety nine percent of the work,
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: and that therapist is only one percent of that thing.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: Because again, at the end of the day, you leave
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: that office or you leave that virtual session, and you
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: have to face all of the rest of that life alone.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: And hopefully the hope is that we bring something to
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: you or we say something back to you that hits
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: in a way. But oftentimes it doesn't. Right. There are
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: times when it's not gonna hit. There are times when
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: it's not gonna do what we hope it does. And
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: that's where I think sometimes the pedestal can get a
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: little a little tough. Is where when it doesn't hit,
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: what do you do right when it's not? When I
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: if I'm talking to you and I go somewhere else
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: right and you're like, WHOA, why are you going there?
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: Or I challenge you and I say say that again
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: and let me know how how like how that sounds
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: to you because sounds a little off to me, And
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: you go, oh, I didn't realize that I was saying
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: that about myself or or whatever. That that's a that's
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: an interesting crossoad that builds trust. Right when we have
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: when if you and I were working together and we
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: had a moment where you and I where I challenge
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: you and maybe you challenge me back and we get
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: through that. That's a that's a step in the therapeutic
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: process and the therapeutic relationship. But I think I always
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: say I'm I'm just someone who loves human connection, who
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: got a different degree than somebody else and is able
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: to sit, sit with, sit in someone else's life and
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: put it away after we're done. Right. And the therapeutic
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: relationship is special because you found someone that you feel
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: comfortable with, that you feel can sit next to you
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: in that journey, and that's extremely important. And it's okay
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: to respect and care about the therapeutic relationship. It's just
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: we want to make sure that you know that how
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: much work you're doing as an individual as opposed to
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: me who's just kind of sitting there and oftentimes to
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: be honest with you, and this is like me like
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: laughing at my own profession, but like oftentimes we're repeating
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: back a lot of the same stuff and hearing it
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: out of my mouth just sounds different than when it's
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: in your own head, and you go, oh, that sounded different, right,
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: So it's it's one of those things respect that person
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: really dig that relationship. But I just want people to
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: know how much work they're doing on their own two
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: to help themselves.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Mmm. It's like very import for that.
• 41:13
  Speaker 6: As as someone who's working specifically with you know, band
• 41:16
  Speaker 6: members and crews and stuff like that. Would you say
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: that the like the main thing that that that ails
• 41:24
  Speaker 6: that that kind of lifestyle. Is it isolation or is
• 41:29
  Speaker 6: it is it just like other people not understanding what
• 41:34
  Speaker 6: kind of work actually goes into that kind of uh
• 41:38
  Speaker 6: line of work or or what What would you say
• 41:41
  Speaker 6: is kind of like the main thing that you see
• 41:43
  Speaker 6: the most with those kinds of individuals.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: It's a bit of everything you just said. I think
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of it is thinking, you know, from
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: the outside world, it's it looks awesome, right, Like we've
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: seen our favorite bands and it's like, whoa, like, look
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: at that, like that life must be so cool, and
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: then when you're actually living it, it's fourteen hour days,
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: it's no sleep, it's bad food, it's alcohol, it's drugs,
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: it's you know, it's infidelity, it's being away from your kids,
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: missing birthdays, funerals, you know, all of this stuff. And
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: so that's a big part of it. And another one
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: that's a big part of it is what do you
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: do when you get home and it's silent and no
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: one needs you and no one cares about you the
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: same way that they did on tour. Right there is
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: no person waking you up and telling you every bit
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: of your day that you have to do. There is
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: no food that's being made for you. You're doing all
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: these things, the noise stops, and how do you deal
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: with that? So it's how most of what I see
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: is that drop off, that that kind of re entry
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: into real life and then you know, also another big
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: one again is how do not lose your identity on
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: tour and how to navigate just the different landmndes of
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: the touring world.
• 43:19
  Speaker 5: M along those lines that obviously we want to eventually
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: get into your your top five, but I'm I'm always
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: curious about this.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Some of the.
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: Best music we've ever heard, and part of the reason
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: why I love the fact that like.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: You were in a band, you made music, you were
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: doing the.
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: Tour life and all of that for a while, some
• 43:39
  Speaker 5: of the best music we've ever heard has been written
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: in a place where somebody was very mentally unwealth and
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: I'm curious for you as a you know, a mental
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: health practitioner, Like what would you say is maybe like
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: the like, how do you think ideally a musician should
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: relate to music when it comes to their mental health,
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: because there is this time period where it feels like
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: when somebody's like really struggling, that's when sometimes the best
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: music comes out.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: But like how like I'm just.
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: But like also we don't want them to stay in
• 44:18
  Speaker 5: that right, So like how do you how do you
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: like navigate like like as somebody again who's like on
• 44:25
  Speaker 5: sort of the other side of it, as not a
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: practicing musician, now, like how on the other side of it,
• 44:31
  Speaker 5: would you say, Oh, that would be the ideal version
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: of relating to your music, creating your music, writing your music,
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: playing it. Like like I'm just curious, like like are
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: you okay, Like would you be okay as a practitioner
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: to say like, oh yeah, like get into that mentally
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: unhealthy place so you can write that really good music,
• 44:52
  Speaker 5: but then immediately go into this Like I'm just curious,
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: Like how would you navigate that now as a knowing
• 44:59
  Speaker 5: like both sides of it, like as somebody who has
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: made music and somebody who clearly you know, really wants
• 45:04
  Speaker 5: to make sure that you're mentally well.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I I think I think it's we have to
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: look at it as like situally situationally, right, I think
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: you never want to tell someone, hey, go write a song,
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: but go to the darkest depths of your life right now,
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: grab a bottle of jack and get to it, right Like,
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: that's the last thing we we probably ever want someone
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: to do.
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: When I think will I'm a big fan of that
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: that approach though, I mean, right.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: And and and it's not and it's not like it's
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: not unique to him, right like, there there are plenty
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: of people in the history of music. And also now
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: that that all do that. I think, I think now
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: when we look at it, and when I when I
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: think of, you know, some of these some of these
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: songwriters in these modern bands, I think there's there needs
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: to be a space where they're right. You know, I'll
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: be like if I'm for example, if I'm thinking about
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: and these two just come to mind, like the bands
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: like day Seeker and bad Omens, right, we see them
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: with very heavy lyrics and very very interesting imagery and
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: interesting stuff, and I think what happens there is we
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: want to make sure that like they're writing the music
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: that they want to write, but we also want to
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: make sure that they're okay and asking them how they're
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: really doing, and making sure they're getting help and getting
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: the things that they need if they're struggling. Right, there
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: are some people that can just turn it on for
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: songwriting right and they're not necessarily struggling. They just can
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: write really well, or they can right from somebody else's perspective.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: But I think that's something where the powers that be
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: that are in the room or outside of the room
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: need to be aware of what's going on and saying
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: like hey man, like I'm listening to this demo, like
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: this is some pretty heavy stuff. How are you doing right?
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: And that's something we never asked, you know, some of
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: these you know, some of these legendary emo people, you know,
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: people like we've never asked them, like, you know, I
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: think like I think back to like, you know, the
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: first time we heard like Hawthorne Heights say cut my
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: wrist and black my eyes right where you're like, are
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: you are you good?
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Man?
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: Like are you okay? What's going on? Or is you
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: know some of these other bands where you're like whoa like, hey, like,
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: let's check in on you, And no one ever did that.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: So I think now that's where Like, like I said,
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: I'd never want someone to throw themselves into the pits
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: of their depression just to write a song. But if
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: if you're in a space, make sure you're also surrounded
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: by a good a good group of people, and you
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: have your people to check in on you and say like, hey, man,
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: are you good, Like this sounds heavy, or I know
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: you're going through it right now, what's up? Do you
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: need to step away? Like what do you need to do?
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: So I think it's important to be surrounded by a
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: good you know, whether that's your band, your crew, your management,
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: it's important to be surrounded by people who who know
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: what's going on as well.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and again like and we've already talked about like
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: it just seems like they're in the scene. There's more
• 48:42
  Speaker 5: awareness around that, yeah than ever before. You know, we
• 48:47
  Speaker 5: Colin and I we're good friends with Garrett Russell from
• 48:49
  Speaker 5: Silent Planet, and like he's somebody who's such an advocate
• 48:52
  Speaker 5: for that, right, Like you know, he has his own
• 48:54
  Speaker 5: mental health struggles and he's somebody who's very open and
• 48:58
  Speaker 5: honest about it and also is such an advocate for
• 49:01
  Speaker 5: those who are still like going through their own stuff.
• 49:04
  Speaker 5: And so but that like again like you were talking
• 49:07
  Speaker 5: about like that, that that kind of honesty in that
• 49:10
  Speaker 5: way Again there was maybe honesty about like I'm going
• 49:13
  Speaker 5: through shit, but like honesty in a way where it's
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: like I'm going through shit and I need help that
• 49:18
  Speaker 5: even lyrically that didn't maybe exist twenty years ago, and
• 49:22
  Speaker 5: and that.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Does seem to be a change.
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: Like I think even like I'm blinking on his name,
• 49:27
  Speaker 5: Jeremy from uh from touschay Amory, like he he kind
• 49:31
  Speaker 5: of has that vibe even of like you know, they've
• 49:34
  Speaker 5: even you know, some of their most famous songs are
• 49:36
  Speaker 5: about like mental health and him like sort of pleading
• 49:40
  Speaker 5: like I like, I need help, just you know, as.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Much as we all do.
• 49:43
  Speaker 5: So there does seem to be a shift that's happening,
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: which is really encouraging.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like, and we're getting some of the it's really
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: good to see some of the people that are really
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: important in the scene, or people that you wouldn't think
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: are going to talk about their mental health talking about
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: their mental health, talking about their struggles, you know, you
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: see a lot of people talk about their recovery a
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: lot from you know, drinking and drugs, and that's so helpful, right,
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: Like you have these these giant hardcore dudes, you know,
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: like right off the top of my head, like the
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: singer for Beyway Jay calls himself Jway right Like, he
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: constantly is talking so openly about his struggles and the
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: lease on life he has now. And that's important for
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: people to see. That's important for fans to see and
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: other band members and crew members to see. You know,
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: when when Noah from bad Omens takes a step back
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: and says, hey, I'm struggling mentally. I need to cancel
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: some shows. That number one. That takes a whole lot
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: of guts to cancel shows, But that allows other people
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: to to do that, Garrett, Like you said, like you know,
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: when they're so open about it, it just allows the
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: door to be open, and it allows for people to
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: realize that, you know, from a fan perspective, they realize like, hey,
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: if my favorite singer can talk about this and get
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: help and talk about getting help, maybe I can too.
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: And I think that's where I want to see. I
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: want to see that that pedestal or that power dynamic
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: work is where fans are doing things in a positive
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: way because their favorite singer or their favorite band member
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: is doing it, not not any other way, not any
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: other reason.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: So, I think it's great to see a lot of
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: these people really like waving the mental health flag and
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: making it making it known that it's okay to go
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: and check check in on yourself.
• 51:58
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I like. I like the way you put that.
• 52:01
  Speaker 6: That's that's a good little boat to put on it.
• 52:06
  Speaker 6: So let's let's talk about your five most influential records.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Okay. So so first I'll go take it back Sunday,
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: tell all your friends. The only reason I talk about
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: that is because I'll never forget. My first Warp tour
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: was in Asbury Park, New Jersey, on the beach, and
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: I'll never forget I was about.
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: To leave what Mike the situation on there was he
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: showing off his apps to everybody?
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: No, I think I think the one that I'm talking about,
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: he might have been a young child. I don't know
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: if he would have even I don't even know if
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: he would have been like known what Warp Tour was.
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: But I'll never forget. I'm leaving and all of a sudden,
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: I hear the first first chords of Chewing Out the
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: East start playing and watching Adam climb the rafters and
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: this is when he was climbing rafters and hanging upside down.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: Now we're now we're we're doing stuff, but we're not
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: doing that and hanging upside down with the chord wrapped
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: around his neck, just singing that song, and that like
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: changed my life and made me like just take that
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: record and be the only thing I listened to and
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: maybe and made me like you need to be in
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: a band, you need to do that. So that was like,
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: that was a big one for me. Another one which
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: I feel like I'm out on an island. But Lucy
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: Gray by the band Envy on the Coast. A lot
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: of people don't talk about them. They were on Photo
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: Finish Records. They did a lot of touring with the
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: likes of Taking Back Sunday, Circus, Survive, the Receiving End
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: of Sirens, and they are by far one of the
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: most underrated bands in my opinion. That record came at
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: a time that I needed it and they were speaking
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: about all the things I was going through and like
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: like we're talking about right, like it was just they
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: were saying all the things I needed to hear, and
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: to this day, it's a record that holds up insane
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: for me.
• 54:13
  Speaker 5: And I looked like they played around the same years
• 54:15
  Speaker 5: that you guys were playing too, right.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they lasted a little bit, a little bit longer.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: They definitely had like wonderful push at a moment, but again,
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: like they were fighting an uphill battle where the bands
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: that were around them were getting pushed and they were
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: kind of like what about, you know, like who's gonna
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: push us? And they were just outside the box enough
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: to where they weren't. They weren't as poppy as their peers,
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: they weren't as as hard as their peers. They just
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: kind of sat somewhere in the middle that the scene
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: wasn't ready for yet, Like we weren't at that time.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: We weren't looking for an incubus type band, or we
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: weren't looking for what they might have been going for
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: at that time. We were looking for neon pop pot
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: like made a parade all time low. That's what people
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: were really gravitating towards at that point, or from the
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: like the more metal perspective or hardcore perspective we were,
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: we were leaning more towards some of those more like
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: influential like you know, as I Lay Dying, It Dies Today,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: leading through you know, under Yeah, under Oath, like a
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: lot of those bands were were the things, so they
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: kind of sat in the middle. But that record is
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: is just absolutely insane. Another one that's this is going
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: to be a wild one, but it's what got me
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: into music. Abandoned Luncheonette by Hollan Oates.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: So that's our first notes. I love this, I love
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: Halo Notts.
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: So that was my first concert I ever went to
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: as a kid. My dad took me to that, and
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: I like, I probably am the only one in the
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: scene that's like seeing them, like, you know, like ten
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: or twelve times in my lifetime. Always been a huge fan,
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: a huge inspiration for me growing up as far as
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: like songwriting and just music in general. Harmonies hard harmonies
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: are crazy. They always got they always got a bad
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: rap because they were the first like music video band
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: on MTV, and their music videos were the cheesiest things
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: you've ever seen. But I challenge and now you won't
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: see them play together live because they don't like each other.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: But they were like the tightest band ever. They their
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: band was always filled with like monster players like G. E.
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: Smith from the Saturday Night Live band, you know, like
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: T Bone Woke from Saturday Night Live band, just these
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: monster players that were always fantastic. So that's one that's
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: I could have put one of their records, but that
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: was like the first one I heard growing up, and
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: then last, like last I was I was having trouble
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: with this, but like I was thinking, like Jimmy Eat
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: World Clarity something like that, where like I mean again,
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: like I can put most Jimmy stuff on there, right,
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: but like there was there's something about when you can when.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: You you probably should say clarity.
• 57:28
  Speaker 7: By the way, clarity is the right answer, But I'm saying,
• 57:31
  Speaker 7: like those are I say that because it's already it
• 57:36
  Speaker 7: might be the most cited one ever, so like you should, okay,
• 57:40
  Speaker 7: make sure that it's the most sighted one.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: So that's why you probably should say.
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: So it's one of those things where it's like when
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: you heard when you Still, when you Still, when you
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: hear those chords, when you hear that voice, it still
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: is one of those things where like you are instantly
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: back in the moment that you first heard that song, Yes,
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: instantly back in the feeling that you had when you
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: first you know, the exact girlfriend you had at the time,
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: you know, the exact friends you had, you knew, the
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: exact T shirt you were wearing, you knew who was
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: in your top eight, Like, you know exactly what your
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: life was like. And there's not a lot of bands
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: that can do that off of like the first three
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: chords of a song. And I think te World is
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: one of those bands.
• 58:25
  Speaker 6: Gosh, that and that album in particular, for some reason,
• 58:28
  Speaker 6: does that more than any of their other ones.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: Right Yeah, Like.
• 58:32
  Speaker 6: I literally remember for every single song, I have like
• 58:36
  Speaker 6: a specific scene of my life that's that plays out, right,
• 58:41
  Speaker 6: and what.
• 58:42
  Speaker 5: That album is a good that's that album is a
• 58:44
  Speaker 5: good starting place for Like every therapist is like, all right,
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: where were you when you first heard Clarity and we'll
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: start We'll start there.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Let's start there.
• 58:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, let's see if there's some repressed emotions there.
• 58:58
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, let's geah, what do you still think about
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: that sixteen year old girlfriend that you had?
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: Right, Like it's it's just one of those things where
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: it's like like the sounds on that record, like you know,
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: Trombino was like Mark Trombino was like in it at
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: that time, you know, like it was just one of
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: those things where it's like, oh man, and and again
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: like there's there's plenty of other little spots from their
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: catalog that we can we can go to and we
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: can grab from, but like, I don't know that record.
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: To me, it's like it just like you know exactly
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: where you were.
• 59:39
  Speaker 6: So I know music therapy is a thing, but has
• 59:42
  Speaker 6: has there ever been a therapy that says like, all right,
• 59:47
  Speaker 6: I want you to bring in two records or like
• 59:51
  Speaker 6: a playlist of songs, and I want you to tell
• 59:54
  Speaker 6: me where you were at with these songs when you
• 59:56
  Speaker 6: heard them for the first time.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, me, that's that's that's easy.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: You that that's your practice.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: So so I do there is a lot of that
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: that happens, right, Like, there are a lot of people
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: that have a hard time articulating what they're going through
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: and what's happening in their lives or what has happened,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: and oftentimes the best way to do that is bring
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: in those songs that explain exactly what you're going through,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: and through those bands and through their words, you find
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: language that you didn't have before. That's why we love
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: those songs, and that's why we come back to them
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: because they said what we were needing to say at
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: that moment, and they still say sometimes what we need
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: to do in that moment. That's why we love that
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: one metal song, or we love that one song that
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: like is a little bit like weird and violent, you know,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: like for example, I remember like Bite to Break Skin
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: by Census Fail was that song that I listened to
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: where I was like, I'm mad, this has to go on.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: And then there were other songs where I was like
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: I don't have words for this, but he does. Jim
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: does you know, like you know, Dashboard does, like all
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: of these bands like have these words. So there are
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: often times where I will work on that with people
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: where it's like make your playlist, like what was your week?
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: Like make you make your week playlist where it's like
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: Monday was this, Tuesday was this, you know, Wednesday was this,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: and it just gives us a gives the client a
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: starting point, but then also is just one of those
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: things where it's like, you know, I've done things where
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: like hey, I've never heard of that one, Like let's
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: listen to that and then all of a sudden, like
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: your client is in tears and you're really getting to
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: a space where you're like, why did this affect you
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: this way? What's going on? What's happening? What? What in
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: this song really really spoke to you? And that's where
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: you know, so it's I utilize that all all the time.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: That's so cool.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 6: I've utilized this thing where like I can journal, and
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 6: I have journaled and stuff like that, and I find
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 6: it not very helpful for me. But what I do
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 6: now I also journal a little bit still. But what
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 6: I do now is I will make a playlist like
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 6: usually like once every two weeks, and my emotions, my thoughts,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 6: all my feelings just like go into that playlist and
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 6: then I that's how I journal now. So it becomes
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 6: like my own like way to go to go through everything.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 6: And then it allows me, you know, the space to
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 6: kind of like pull back a little bit and see,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 6: all right, why am I feeling that? And I think
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 6: that I feel like that should be more commonplace, you
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 6: know what I feel like that should be like like
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 6: why don't we Why isn't that like the next step.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: For here's what I say, here's what I say to that,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: bring it into the it's your session, right, I say
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: this to anyone. Sure, if that's what you're doing, bring
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: it in right if that, If that's what helps you,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: bring it in and talk about it and go over it.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: And I should I shouldn't be fitting you into my
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: therapy box. I should be doing everything that I can
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: to work with and adapt to what you need and
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: what what you need right. I should never go hey,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: Colin like I have. I went to school and I
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: studied this, and I really am fond of this method.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: We're only going to do that and this is all
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: you're ever gonna do. If that is what helps you,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: I want you to bring that in and say, hey, man,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: I made a playlist and I'd love to talk to
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: you about it. I would. I would fall off my chair.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: I would be like, oh, yes, let's please do that,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: like I would love.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: That's probably.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 6: That's probably got to be like more exciting too for you.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 6: Do you actually like listen to the tunes as well?
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: There have been times like you, especially if I don't
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: know it, where like you know, people bring in stuff
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: that I don't know all the time because I, you know,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: I there is certain stuff that I listen to and
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: certain stuff I don't listen to, and I'll like be like, hey,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: like let's let's let's play it, like let's see what
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: let's see what this is all about, and we'll listen
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: to the track and like we'll really break it down,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: like why that's the track that really hits you on
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: that Tuesday at eight o'clock. Right. And I think that's
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: great that you utilize that for for journaling because I
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: tell people all the time, journaling is what you want
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: it to be. It's doesn't always doesn't even have to
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: be words half the time, right, Like you could draw pictures,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: you can cut out. You can be like old school
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: where like you take magazines and cut out stuff that
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: makes sense to you. Doesn't have to be this daunting
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: school like task. It could be anything you want it
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: to be. It just it's just a matter of what
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: is it. Is it doing something for you? Yes, keep
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: doing it. I don't. I don't need you to write
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: paragraphs off of a prompt that I got from some
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: therapy workbook in my graduate class. I want you to
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: take it and run with it.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you're a much better person than I am, because
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 5: i'd be so judgmental to people's.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 6: Yeah, all I'm thinking about is like I might have
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 6: to find a new therapist if I want to try.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 6: I feel like mine might not go for it.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're you're sitting there, bring bringing in something. You're like,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: this is suffocation and this is my song by them,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: and I'd like for you to take a listen to it,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: and they're like, okay, click. So it's like, but I
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: find that interesting, right.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 4: I think it's a therapist. Have you ever heard of
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: g g Allen?
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I can't even that.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, my favorite song ever by Gen.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: Do you want to watch the YouTube video because that's
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: even better.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's watch a YouTube video.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, let's let's really like, let's really ring it home?
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be that would be so bad. But yeah,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: I think I think it's all what what you want
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: to make of it? And I think it's sometimes it's
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: you know sometimes Yeah, there's gonna be a song where
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: you're like, really like lifestyles are the Rich and Famous
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: by Good Charlotte, Like, but then like.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: You want to be a rock Star by Nickelback.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: Did you say kid? Did you say kid rock? You know,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: like rock? Yeah, new kid rock, but with the blah
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: was was at the time was was a jam right
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: but like but.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 5: Now but like but like alternative halftime show could rock.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 5: That's what Colin's Yeah, yeah.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: I could see Colin, You're so into that. Yeah, I
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: could see that.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I think it's it's it's what you make
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: out of it. It just adds. It helps lighten some
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: of the some of the barriers that are there in
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: therapy that I think helped people walk through the door
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: and stay and stay in it as opposed to you,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna try this out, but I didn't like that,
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: so now I'm not gonna do it anymore. The goal
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: is to get you to want to be there and
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: want to work on the things that you want to
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 3: work on. And if that means bringing in a playlist,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: if that means you know whatever whatever that you know,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: having your favorite like I have all this ridiculous stuff
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: behind me. Like if that means like showing showing something
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: that you're really proud of or whatever it is, like,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: I'm all for it.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 6: Sick. I love that so much. All right, what would
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 6: you like to plug?
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: Well, definitely plug my Instagram Daniel and all the LMHC
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: where you can find all of my ramblings of mental health.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: And that's where if you like, even if I'm not
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: working with you, if you have any questions, I answer
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: my DMS. I talk to people all the time. I
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: love helping people get to where they want to go
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: into in therapy or find that first thing. So please
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: feel free.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: Is that where?
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: Then look like book a session with you too if
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: they want.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there, So you're that's the one thing that I
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 3: always talked about. It's a real help, real time. Right,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: you're talking directly to me and you're there is no
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: seven hundred steps if you if you want a book,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: like you know, I give everyone the option of, hey,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: do you want to do a quick console to see
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: if it if we vibe like, because I never want
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: someone to just like force themselves into a room with me.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: So it's it's that, and then it's like, hey, you
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: want a book, here's the paperwork, let's start next week,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: you know sort of thing. There there is no wait
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: list essentially, so it's it's kind of just hey, let's
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: let's go. And so you're talking directly to me and
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: you're booking, you know, if you want a book, we're booking.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 6: And then is there is there other people like you
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 6: that have kind of similar kind of vibe. I would say.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: There there are people out there. I don't know a
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: whole lot of them. There are people out there that
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: have different backgrounds that are working in in the same industry.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of times with this industry, with
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: the stigma and how hard it is, it's hard for
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: a lot of people to break through. I got lucky
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: a while, you know, a year ago, where I posted
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: some posts that went really well and it allowed me
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: to kind of get a base of people. So I
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: will show up right, I will be in your feed
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: if that's what you're looking for. But there are people
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: out there, so I like, you know, if if you know,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: if you're looking for it, Like if maybe maybe I'm
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: not right for you, and you go, hey, I'd really
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: like someone who's female or non binary. I I'd like
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: this person or that person reach out because someone I
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: can always help you find that person that I maybe
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: know personally that's reached out to me, or I just
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: know of that works in the same space, that does
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: the same thing, that has a touring background, but they
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: might not necessarily be comfortable with talking to me. And
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: that's okay. I don't I don't want someone who's uncomfortable.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: I want them to feel like they can be you know,
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: be open. So, yes, people do exist. I think it's
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: just so hard to break through the noise of social
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: media and really show up on people's radar.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, for sure.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I can't imagine that. It would be very easy
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 6: trying to be the only guy. So you know, yeah,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 6: if you had to be the therapist for every single
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 6: band member and crew member and management out there, you're
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 6: gonna be a busy dude.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd be a busy dude. Like it'd be lovely, right,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: And you know, maybe there's a space where you know,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: that's I'm building something called sound Check SASH right now.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: It's kind of it's in baby stages and it's out there.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: It's kind of it's kind of built for the touring model.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: It's built for the green room. It's built as as
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: a space where you know, tours and the people on
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: them get what they need but don't have to, you know,
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: pay for an extra person to be out there. They
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: don't have to, they don't have to have the all
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: the stigma that that surrounds it it's again real help
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: in real time on tour. So that's that's kind of
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: getting built in real time as I'm doing content and
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: having my own practice as well. Sound Check is eventually
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: going to become the hub for hopefully a bunch of
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: different things.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 6: Awesome, that's good, that's good.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: Anything else you like to plug.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: So one thing I think that people don't necessarily like
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: know me from or or that is like, I don't
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: know if you guys. Do you guys remember bananas and pajamas? Yeah,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: for sure, Like they're marching down the stairs bananas, right, Yeah,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: my children's show.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 6: It was like puppet kind of stuff looking.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they were like puppety bananas. So it was it
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: was interesting. Back in my freshman year of college, I
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: was I wasn't sure what I was doing. I was
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: kind of in the creative arts, but I actually got
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: employed to design the actual stripe pajamas that were that
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: they wore in the show. So coming down in pairs
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: blue stripe pajamas.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 6: That was me. Whoa gosh, I don't know if you
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 6: realize how seminal you were.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: To my child. Right, So, like before the pajamas, they
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: were just kind of in these like weird like onesie
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: things that didn't look right when I was when I
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: was looking at the original storyboard, and then I kind
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: of came in and was like, what about like this
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: like two piece old school like dad pajamas sort of thing.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: I think it would be interesting, and lo and behold,
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: they went for it. You know, definitely paid for that
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 3: freshman year and then I dropped out, but it was
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: it was definitely interesting.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 5: Were you recently a part of a design team that
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 5: made these polka dot aliens that play mathrock in Canada?
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: Dude, I I wish that is an interesting that's an
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: interesting thing. I'm I'm hoping that maybe I can tap
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: into that that fashion designer again and create a couple
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: of create a couple of custom pieces for them.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 5: Though Okay, it just it feels like the bananas and pajamas,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 5: whatever that crew was that was making that seems pretty
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 5: similar to that crew that was you know it's making.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 6: Well it does.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not gonna lie hopefully hopefully there's there's
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: not there's there's not a lawsuit coming. I'm just gonna
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: say that, guys.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 4: You know, it does feel a little copyright ish.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying it.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: I really I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to the old
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: Banana crew and see what's going on.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I love that. I love that you must you
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 6: must Mason and I want a crew. I think Mason
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 6: and I should start a shock rock band where we
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 6: wear like the most wild stuff and and.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 5: You know, honestly a lot of like like some of
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 5: those nineties children shows that were like live action like that.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 5: Uh they like they were really in scary costumes, like
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 5: a lot of the big comfy couch kids or like
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 5: the actors for that that.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: They were scary looking.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 5: And I do think the Dust Nights, Oh you're you're
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 5: absolutely onto something calling like that could be a total
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 5: shock rock get like gig and yeah bit yeah yeah.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: Look at look at how many other bands are out there,
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: Like they have their stick right, like some of them
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: do that horror stuff on stage and and all those things,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: like you guys could perform live from the comfy couch, right, Yes.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 6: I would love that. I want to do the I
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 6: want to do like the big clock thing though on stage,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: Like yoga, the stretching clock.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah so good. It would be fun.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 5: At somebody's paying good money for that, Colin, all right,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 5: all right, Daniel, thank you so much for hanging out
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 5: and talking about mental health in the in the music scene.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 5: Just so such obviously incredibly important work that you're doing,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 5: incredibly important conversation, and so thanks for so much for
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 5: for chatting more about it, and love to have you
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 5: on again.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely anytime. Thank you guys so much. This was
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: a blast, and thank you so much for the platform
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: to talk about mental health. I think it's like, it's
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: always so wonderful when I when I get that