Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Leave No Trace and Winnebago on Reducing Travel Impact
Transcript
- Scott Brady (00:01.167) All right, awesome guys. I am so grateful to have you both on the podcast today. know, Leave No Traces, an organization that I have had such respect for. I've been following what you guys do for such a long time. And then of course, when it comes to vehicle-based travel, Winnebago has been at vehicle-based travel for a very long time. When did Winnebago first start? Mark Nevils (00:26.19) 1958, John K. Hansen in Forest City, Iowa decided we needed to find a better way for people to go camping. it's been kind of an upward trend since then. Now we're part of a bigger organization with several other RV brands and boats. it's a trend of a lot of classic American companies, which is greatness from small beginnings. Scott Brady (00:30.116) Okay. Scott Brady (00:47.891) that's incredible. And looking back on the history of Winnebago and the number of units that you guys have produced through the years that have gotten families out for a road trip or the vacation of a lifetime or some version of comedy like American Vacation or something like that. you know, it's really it's fun to see that. And also your guys' focus in on to the Overland space with your new models like the Hike trailer. like the Revel that many of our audience are familiar with. The Revel bands are something that a lot of people purchase and use around the world. So your guys' products are certainly represented within the space. Where I wanted to kind of start the conversation though is let's take some time to get the listener up to speed on what Leave No Trace is and then let's work through the various tenets of the organization. Because I feel that not only are they super important, they apply to those of us who travel over land. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (01:51.962) Totally, you're exactly right, Scott. So, know, Leave No Trace is an international nonprofit, but more than that, it's an outdoor ethic, you know, a way to approach the outdoors and no matter what we do to protect it for its long-term health, to share it with others, and to make sure that we're good stewards of the land. And Leave No Trace can be pretty in-depth, you know, we teach five-day courses on Leave No Trace, but really it can be boiled down to seven core principles, seven categories that we really... can be good outdoor stewards and protect these places. You know, the first being planning ahead and preparing, making sure we know what we're in for and having all the gear, the equipment, the knowledge we need. The second principle there is traveling and camping on durable surfaces, sticking to roads, trails when available, or if we're off trail, just knowing what durable surfaces can handle that impact. The third, disposing of our waste properly, you know, making sure we're packing out our trash and our human waste. Scott Brady (02:44.295) Yeah, sure. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (02:50.436) fourth principle is leaving what we find, keeping cultural sites intact, leaving historic artifacts. The fifth, really important in our modern age, minimizing campfire impacts specifically, minimizing wildfire possibilities. The sixth is respecting wildlife. We're interacting with wildlife everywhere we go. And the last seventh principle is being considerate of others. We're sharing these public lands with millions of other people. And if we're kind, compassionate to each other, it makes all of our experiences better. Scott Brady (03:21.265) Yeah, those are, they're such great insights and each one of them could almost become a podcast in and of itself. But when I think about those of us that travel by vehicle, you know, let's dig in a little bit onto those durable surfaces because one of the responsibilities I think that we have, especially when you travel in groups is to make sure that you're not expanding campsites. So if you come up on a campsite and you have five vehicles in your group and it looks like you can really only fit three, don't push that campsite out. Don't drive back over the brush. Don't extend the campsite because that's going to affect the experience for the next group. It's going to damage wildlife. It's going to leave an impression on other travelers of, look, these people that are driving a vehicle have done some damage and expanded a campsite. And I think that that's also where it comes into play around the vehicles that we choose. So like you guys have the Revel van, which is much more compact, the footprint because it's a van, the overall length is no more than a standard midsize pickup. But you have the ability to comfortably sleep a whole bunch of people. So I do think that those durable surfaces considerations are important. If you're going to be leaving tire tracks where it isn't a hardened surface, if those tire tracks are going to persist beyond the next time that the wind blows, like if you're in sand, for example, you need to look for another place to camp. So that's an important one for overlanders to remember. Any other thoughts on that, Bryce, around durable surfaces, things that we can be mindful of? Because you've done a bunch of overlanding yourself. So how do you look at it? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (05:13.262) Yeah, yeah, you're totally right. The phenomenon you're referring to we call site creep. It's not just the person who wanders into your campsite at night, you know, and you don't want them there. Site creep is when, you know, we pick a spot that's maybe too small for our group, even if it's just a few inches at a time, over time, it will expand and that footprint of that campsite grows, you know, and in extreme cases, this can lead to land managers limiting access, know, Willow Springs outside of Moab is a good example Scott Brady (05:21.895) Ha ha ha ha! Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (05:43.178) of this, where over time we just destroy more and more area. And vehicles are heavier than footprints, right? And so those tire tracks, especially in arid desert environments, can take decades to repair themselves, that compacted soil. So really just making sure that we're staying, we're not making new pullouts, right? We're using existing pullouts and campsites. And if we're in a larger group, maybe using multiple of those pullouts for our camping. Scott Brady (05:44.019) Sure. Scott Brady (05:59.335) Yeah. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (06:12.866) and not making shortcut trails in between them, right? Utilizing the road to walk back and forth. That really is a game changer and makes a big difference when we're out on forest roads or anything like that. Scott Brady (06:25.085) Yeah, that's all great. Even like tactical recommendations there of, know, if you can't fit your group into that one campsite, keep going until you can find a couple of them, either one that's bigger or a couple of them that can be paired together. And then maybe you got to walk a little bit, but we think about it as these are public lands. And one of the beauties of public lands is that three generations from now, I hope, that young people are able to go out and experience these beautiful places as close to the same way that I'm able to, if not better. And the only way we have any prayer of that happening is by doing things like you're talking about, Bryce, where we're very intentional about, like, it looks like we can almost fit this other vehicle in here, but let's just do the right thing. and not damage that campsite or like you said, that site creep at an individual campsite and let's find something else. Or one of the things that we recommend is travel in smaller groups. The impact is much less on wildlife, it's much less on local resources. It does prevent things like that and it allows you to, I think, have a better experience than if you're in a group of 15 or 20. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (07:49.998) Yeah, yeah, managing those, what we call, know, cumulative impacts that is really what makes the difference to ecological space. you know, any one instance of impact driving off road, leaving trash behind, usually doesn't destroy an ecosystem. But you think of some of these areas outside Sedona, Arizona, four million visitors a year, outside Moab, five million visitors a year. Some of these places just see so many folks that though that level of impact just grows so drastically. It's never just that one instance, it's every person that's there every day all year long and that's when we see biophysical health changes. Scott Brady (08:30.823) Well, and it makes sense. remember hearing a few years ago during COVID that Moab shut down camp. They had to shut down camping in the entire area just because of the amount of human waste that was being just littered across the desert, which is like horrific to think about. If I think about even 15 years ago in Sedona, I could go just to the outskirts, maybe 10 miles out of town, and I could always find a campsite and I'd usually be the only one there. If I go there now, there will be hundreds of vehicles and some of them are people that are living there now. it really starts to create additional impact. Mark, in your experience, what are some of the things that the vehicles like you build or other ones in the market that are similar quality, what are some of the benefits that you're bringing to the table around reducing impact at these campsites? Mark Nevils (09:33.326) Sure. I mean, we can go all the way back to how we build them in the first place from a sustainability standpoint, in terms of overarching environmental impact. But if we're specifically getting down to when you're on the ground at a campsite, I think a lot of it just comes into the framework that you have. When you have an RV versus if you're tent camping, or even if you're in a pickup that's got a topper on it or something like that that doesn't have a bathroom facility, you are making that waste management impact that you're not really intending to. That is one of the beautiful parts about RV life and a lot of people that are not in the RV lifestyle don't love this idea of like, so I have a cassette toilet and I have to manage this and I have to dump that, or I have to go do this. And those aren't our people because I think it's a reality when you're a human being and you're gonna be in these environments. But I think the RV piece of it makes it a lot easier. It's comfortable, convenient, and it adds a little responsibility aspect that's built into the vehicle. It's something that you don't have to worry about what's happening with that. And I think you have a lot of the frameworks that you have at home that you typically don't have when you're camping, trash management, just how you pack stuff in, how you pack things out. Embedded solar structure is also part of it. so you've got power you can a lot of times you can run you can cook using propane So you're not making a you know fire risk or or something like that where you can you know, that's another great example of bomb I would call what Bryce called site creep where you know, you thought that one can't that campfire spot was good enough Why do we have three more now because somebody changed their mind and started a new one you just you can avoid some of that stuff because you you've got light you've got heat you've got Scott Brady (11:15.153) Yeah. Mark Nevils (11:21.464) cooking abilities, all those sorts of things. So it just gives you a little bit more of a platform to not have to even consider that stuff. And I think in my conversations with Bryce, a lot of this comes down to intention and impact and how those things, they're related, but we like to believe a lot of people have the best intentions when they go out in the outdoors, because I think that at least subconsciously they understand the long-term impact and wanting this to be something for their children and the children after that. But it's kind of irrelevant what your intentions are if your impact isn't in line with that. So what Leave No Trace does, what some of the features embedded in our V's do is it gives you a little bit of a framework and a process to kind of check yourself and just have a plan. And I think that's what's awesome about it. Scott Brady (12:09.426) Yeah. And if we're looking practically, if someone is traveling in a roof tent or they don't have bathroom facilities, they can still bring those along with them. So you can bring along an enclosure for some privacy. You can have a composting toilet or you can have a cassette toilet or you can even have a bag system that you can then remove your waste. You know, if we start to be really gentle around capacity. So when you look at someone that's traveling on a motorcycle, they have very limited capacity. So we start to be a little more gentle around like they're probably going to be handling human waste like hikers do. But if you have the ability to carry a toilet system, do that, please do that because entire regions like in Moab experienced several years ago, these places are getting shut down because of human waste. Mark Nevils (12:53.602) Yep. Scott Brady (13:07.795) So as overlanders, we tend to be a little more prepared. We tend to be a little bit more thoughtful. We want to be outdoors, so let's preserve that for future generations. So thank you for that, Mark. I appreciate those insights because like even gray water capture, that's another thing that an RV can do. That's a lot more difficult when you don't have a full camping system, although it's possible. It's possible to pack out your gray water to even in a pickup. But these are the things that we want to start to be mindful of for sure. Let's talk, Bryce, a little bit more about the fire risks. Because that's another thing that Leave No Trace focuses on that applies to an overlander every single day that they're camping is cooking, sometimes a source of heat, certainly a source of human interaction and community. mean, human beings have been sitting and telling Tulsa. tall tales around a fire for a really long time. So how do we reconcile the risk and the impact against this very natural desire that humans have to have that experience? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (14:19.576) Yeah, you're totally right there, Scott. know, nothing's more synonymous with the outdoors than sitting under the stars with your family with a fire in front of you. know, Leave No Trace is not anti-campfire. We are pro-responsible campfire. Knowing how and when to have those fires is really the biggest piece of that. I'll start first about the when, you know, knowing that on high wind days when those red flag warnings, which in my opinion should be renamed to be something a little more clear, you know. that when those days happen that we aren't having any fire. A big one when we're thinking about the overlanding community is not, as you alluded to earlier, is not making new fire rings using designated ones or bringing them with you. Tools like the solo stove that really mitigate a lot of that risk and embers flying out. are really helpful. thinking about that because upwards of 85 to 90 percent of all wildfires are human cost in some way or another. know, fire is a natural part of most forests, most ecosystems, but not nearly at the rate that humans are causing them. So we just want to be really mindful of that, making sure we're putting our fires all the way out, either packing out our ash or dispersing it over the landscape when it's cool to the touch. way later in the day. These are good ways to mitigate it. Another big one is, you know, is overlanders staying on the trail, those pullouts and making sure we aren't parking on dry brush. Even in Colorado, just this last month, there was a brush fire started by a tailpipe parking on some dry grass. So thinking of us some of those things really can to make us better stewards in the wildfire space. Scott Brady (15:55.866) Interesting, yeah. Scott Brady (16:02.129) And there was a pretty significant video that came out a few years ago, a guy driving a Jeep Wrangler and some brush got up onto his skid plate and it started a fire and the vehicle burned down and he was very remote. So you're putting yourself at risk by not being mindful of the impact that can also happen to the environment. And there are good tools for you can bring fire pits with you. You can, if they're depending on whatever the burn control is, I live in Arizona and we have really strict fire considerations. So, you know, you may need to go from having the campfire to having an above ground campfire in a fire pit. You may need to go from that to having a propane fire and you may need to, depending upon the risk or even your own assessment, you may need to have no source of flame at all in, in the campsite because of the amount of danger that it could cause to others in the community and the wildlife that you have in that area. Interestingly, when I was in the military part of my job, I was a wildland firefighter and it was incredible how quickly they burn and how dangerous they are to animals and to other people. So we have a lot of responsibility around making sure that the fire risk is limited. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (17:24.984) Yeah, great points there. And I think an important part of fire too is to make sure you're not relying on it for your heat or your cooking necessarily, because then we can get in a situation where it's dangerous to have a fire, but we need it to cook our dinner, right? And we're making those maybe more unethical decisions. And that's where a lot of great rigs like Winnebago has come into play. Like you said, we have a kitchen, we have a stove, all those things. They really can mitigate some of that impact by having a self-contained unit. That's where You know some RVing can be less impactful than other ways of getting outside Not that any of them are wrong, but it makes those those choices easy because it's contained for us Scott Brady (18:06.461) Yeah, especially around the cooking because there are times even in Arizona where you're not allowed to have any flame source unless it's enclosed in an RV or inside the vehicle. you have to be so mindful of that. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (18:15.182) Yeah, totally. Mark Nevils (18:23.192) Yeah, I was gonna comment on that to you, Scott. mean, that's an area where we see a lot of changes in that every day. mean, just with, think about convection ovens weren't a thing that not long ago. We were using induction cooktops. So you literally don't have not even a propane flame indoors at all. Things that we can do using sustainable power systems to just really give yourself the flexibility. Cause I think just like Bryce Winnebago, you know. love the idea of being around a campfire too. That's part of the cultural experience. And so we just want to give people as much flexibility as they can to have their best days outdoors. Scott Brady (19:00.529) Yeah, that's a great point around the induction cooktop. There's not any flame at all, which also makes the RV safer for sure. I'm a huge fan of the induction cooktops, especially now that so many of us have all this extra battery power on board. So they really, really are effective. Bryce, let's dig in a little bit into the cultural component, because that does apply so much to overlanders, especially when we're traveling internationally. But even if we Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (19:15.545) true. Scott Brady (19:29.499) Take the example of we're going into southern Utah. We go into Combe Ridge. And any canyon that you pick, there's going to be some native site that's present. We have a lot of responsibility. Again, like when we go back in and we get to see this old Puebloan ruin. And there are pottery shards and maybe arrowheads and maybe corn cobs all over the ground. I mean, this is an incredible experience and think about how we feel when we first get to see it. If we take even one of those pieces away, we've now reduced the experience of the next person and it continues on for every piece that goes missing. And, you know, a good friend of mine, Brian Bass, who's been on the podcast many times, he's an archaeologist. He says, as soon as that is removed from that area, all context is lost. Like the historical record of humanity that existed in that place, a piece of it is now gone forever. It'd be like a big chunk of the Rosetta Stone was missing. And every time we do that, it has an impact. Also, when we're traveling internationally, we interact with cultures different from our own. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (20:24.538) Yeah. Scott Brady (20:46.557) people that maybe believe different things, they have different gods, they have different language, they have different cultural norms. We have a responsibility to minimize our impact on those other cultures, our judgment of those other cultures, imparting our own way of life on them in a way that maybe they're not interested in receiving. So I like the cultural component a lot. Bryce, do you have some other insights on that that we can be mindful of around the cultural impacts? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (21:16.194) Yeah, I do. I got some good insights and some even some examples. I think years of Utah's, you know, a very defined area where people see a lot of Indigenous cultural sites and as overlanders, we're able to often get into those more backcountry environments and interface with them more. I think of the San Rafael Swell where you can see some amazing pictographs and petroglyphs and historical sites. But to your larger point, not only do we ruin the story that archaeologists put together, we do what I call stealing the wow, stealing someone else's wow moment of seeing that cultural site and learning from it and taking a part of them. Scott Brady (21:39.335) Incredible. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (21:58.57) in a bigger way. And this can be really in a big way affected. And a good example is in just in Arizona, actually, outside of Flagstaff, Walnut Creek is a national park where, you know, in the early 1900s, late 1800s, it was commonplace for folks to show up there and take as many pottery shards home as they want, etc. And now in the modern day, we don't know nearly enough about the people who lived there because there's no remnants of their culture left. So it's important for us to appreciate, but not to take. Don't steal people's wow, don't steal the part of that story. And your other point really about internationally, this is also something to consider. Leave No Trace is doing some research actually this year in New Zealand. The local indigenous culture sees some of the mountains there, Mount Eroki as a specific one as a, you know. figure and as something that should be respected and when climbers climb on it and leave their waste behind it's very disrespectful and so thinking of things like that doing your research and knowing what those implications may be and being respectful of all those cultures is a big part of sharing all these spaces with everyone no matter how they get outside. Scott Brady (23:11.155) Yeah, I mean, just imagine if you came to go see your grandmother's grave and someone had taken the headstone. Like that's what you're doing when you remove those things from those cultural communities. Like this is their history. This is where their ancestors lived and died and laughed and, all of those other things. And if you take any of it away, it's just like, if someone took that part of our own family history or, someone you've go out into the backyard and someone's going to the bathroom in your backyard, you'd be like, what are you doing? Like, why would you do that? Like, why would you do that? But that's how the Maori feel in New Zealand. That's how they feel about somebody doing that on the mountain that represents something really important to them religiously. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (24:01.419) Absolutely. Mark Nevils (24:01.688) Yeah, Scott, was going to say I love this conversation because it really gets down to the kind of the human perspective on how you need to approach your attitude when you step outside of your comfort zone and into the outdoors where you're the least common denominator in terms of understanding how it all works. And I think a lot of it, again, is not about bad intentions. It's just kind of ignorance. so one of my favorite parts of that Ted Lasso TV show was when they made a, I don't know if you guys saw that, we made this point about Scott Brady (24:19.218) Mmm. Scott Brady (24:24.274) Yeah. Mark Nevils (24:30.83) The difference between people that are good people and bad people, a lot of times it's about being curious and asking the questions and coming up. And because I think there has to be an assumption that you don't know, you don't know the bigger picture, you're one piece of that puzzle. And so it's the butterfly effect that, know, quintessentially people talk about it. You don't realize that by running over this one particular plant could divert, could impact this whole ecosystem in a way that you might never understand. To take away from that, you know, Scott Brady (24:35.248) sure. Scott Brady (24:42.376) Yeah. Mark Nevils (24:58.926) environmental wow factor for someone or one missing piece could, to your point, could destroy that chain of evidence that an archaeologist might have been able to really tell a story around that. It's just such a bigger piece. And that's why we all go outdoors, right? Is to kind of get that grounding of how little we are. That's why we look at the stars, all those types of things. And that's our behavior, right? Like I think, I think just that attitude is right to begin with. Hopefully, you know, people will make a little bit more informed decisions. Scott Brady (25:18.983) Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Scott Brady (25:28.477) Yeah, just reminding ourselves that the world doesn't revolve around us and our needs in that moment. And we are just a very small speck. in a very broad and amazing universe. having some humility around that is going to help us, I think, do a better job as travelers. Let's take a little break from the tenets and let's go through what you guys have done for travel. So Mark, tell me, like, how do you enjoy overlanding? What's your favorite rig for doing that? Maybe what's one of your favorite places that you've experienced or seen in the world? Mark Nevils (26:02.926) Sure. I'm going to go back a little bit in time. I was with Polaris for a long time. I think that motorcycling has been my favorite way of being outdoors. And I know that's not overlanding per se, but the connection with that. I haven't done any of the extreme kind of adventure bike stuff, but enough of it that I've experienced that. Scott Brady (26:09.957) Right. Scott Brady (26:18.397) Sure it is, yeah. Mark Nevils (26:30.478) I love the minimalist aspect of that because you can only take what you can carry. And that to me, that's where the adventure was in that. So, you know, I've ridden through all the national parks and everywhere in between, you know, from Sturgis to LA and back down to the tip of Baja and back to just amazing places. And it's just a way to do that in a way that you. Scott Brady (26:46.61) Awesome. Mark Nevils (26:52.33) it's difficult to replicate just because it's a full sensual experience, the temperature, the smells, just everything, you know, it's all inclusive. So that's where kind of where I began. And then since I've been part of Winnebago, we've had some opportunities to then, you know, do more of the RV overlanding piece of it. And I think what's been awesome about that is I feel like it's sort of perfect for me now that I'm getting older. And I say that. Scott Brady (27:19.943) Yeah, sure. Mark Nevils (27:20.768) my own sense of humility because it's sure nice to sleep in a comfortable bed after a day of moving around and yeah, exactly, get clean, have a cold drink, whatever you want without having all the effort in it. And so I can't speak to any particular trip that think stands out for me, but I think it's the community. That's the piece of it for me that I think is cool about the RV groups is Scott Brady (27:24.883) Hot shower. Scott Brady (27:44.743) Yeah. Mark Nevils (27:49.068) If you look at our Echo community, for example, they're one of our biggest ones. They all are the same types of people. all have that, you know, again, that curious obsession with experience the outdoors in its most natural state and getting out there. And so that's what stands out to me when I look back about any trip that I've taken or a group that I've gone out with. It's the fact that it brings the right people together. And I assume that's, you know, in your experience, the same with the Overland community at large is It's that sense of sense of amazement of the outdoors and what you want to do. And that's that's what comes up to me when I look back. Scott Brady (28:25.297) And what of all of the models that you guys make, which one is your favorite? Mark Nevils (28:31.0) Depends on the day. I've got two little kids. So depending on what we're doing, that can flex. But one of my favorite ones right now is the Echo. And the reason for that is it's a little bit bigger than a camper van, but the footprint's not that different. But there's so much capability to it. There's this massive gear garage in the back. So you can bring bikes. You can bring so much stuff with you. Scott Brady (28:34.471) Sure. Scott Brady (28:42.055) Yeah. Mark Nevils (28:59.386) just to expand kind of the activity side of what you do. So it's not just about the camping, it's really about enabling whatever lifestyle piece that you have. And so I think that's probably my favorite right now. Plus we've got some, I'm kind of a gear nut and gear nerd and there's just all these little mods you can do that we have one that right now that's this full body paint selenite that's kind of stealth looking cool and who doesn't like that kind of stuff? Scott Brady (29:08.267) That's great Scott Brady (29:19.955) Sure. Scott Brady (29:26.524) Yeah, sure. Mark Nevils (29:27.662) So I think that's probably my favorite right now, but there's lots of different options, know, mild to wild. And I think that's what we're trying to chase right now is creating options for people at different price points because just getting outdoors is the real goal for everybody. You can spend more or less money and get more features and capabilities, but getting outdoors is the real benefit that we have. Scott Brady (29:29.915) I like it. Scott Brady (29:42.93) Yeah, absolutely. Scott Brady (29:52.923) Yeah, that makes sense. And I could see an Indian scout with some navis on it getting a little bit into the back country. I'm sure somebody's done that. I'm sure somebody's done that. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (30:00.206) They're out there. yeah. Mark Nevils (30:02.766) Back in the day, I mean, yeah, Burt Monroe riding across the salt flats from, know, to make a New Zealand connection with our previous conversations. So all kinds of fun. Scott Brady (30:08.124) Yeah. Yeah, Indians are neat bike. They are just great looking motorcycles for sure. Absolutely. Mark Nevils (30:19.326) I love the classic Americana of it. Harley and Indian kind of have that kind of compatriot relationship where they both started back shortly after the turn of the century and there were just such core parts of history that, and I think that's what's fun about being parts of companies like Indian or Harley or Winnebago. You have that core to it that... Scott Brady (30:31.667) Yeah. Mark Nevils (30:44.29) There's history, but then everyone's looking ahead and trying to do it better and make it more accessible for everyone. Scott Brady (30:50.673) How cool. All right, Bryce, what's your current Overland setup? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (30:55.482) Ooh, you know, currently I'm with you on the old age thing. I was actually doing the math the other day. I've probably camped 25, 2,600 nights over the years. And it is, I actually, as part of my Leave No Trace work, I was on the road full time out of a Subaru in a tent for four years and camped in 46 US states and worked in them. Scott Brady (31:06.269) That's a lot. That's a lot. Scott Brady (31:18.667) wow. wow. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (31:19.514) But my current rig, have a 25 year old Ram 2500 with a Lance camper on it. It's got on board air, winch, and some decent tires, and so I can get out there pretty well. And the solar setups, I tell you what, are a game changer. I can work remotely from what feels like a super back country area. Scott Brady (31:26.523) Awesome. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (31:40.67) And it's taken me some cool spots, you know, in the Alpine lakes of Oregon, a lot of desert. I'm from the desert. I'm in Nevada at the moment. And so that always hits home. Escalante is a great spot as well. It's hard to name them all, but it's incredible to be able to experience the world in that way. Internationally a favorite, I'd say, is Iceland. If you ever get a chance, the interior of Iceland is all back country dirt roads. Mark Nevils (31:53.623) I don't Scott Brady (31:54.008) so great, yeah. Mark Nevils (32:05.166) Man. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (32:10.426) as far as you can have a rig able to take it. And that's an incredible experience. can't wait to relive. Scott Brady (32:18.939) What, Bryce, what were some of the things that you learned from living on the road and camping for thousands of nights? What are some things you learned about yourself and about, I mean, there has to be some takeaways from that of like, without this one thing, didn't work. Like, what did you learn from that? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (32:37.166) Yeah, you know, I'd say a big one is really that it takes all of us caring about these spaces to preserve them. You know, one thing I like seeing about the rise of dispersed camping and RVing, I think it's like 80 million people last year camped a night in an RV or a camper van. And that's good. We need more people to experience these places so that they can care about them and want to protect them in the long term. and just how fragile that balance is, right? That humans are a part of these ecosystems, but we can easily overrun them. And so it takes that collective effort to do so. That and just how freeing it is to be able to spend time in nature. You know, we're a pretty modern society that has cities and people more disconnected from nature. It's really only in the last 100, 150 years that that has been a wide phenomenon. And so getting back to our human roots, I think everyone needs a little piece of that for their mental health, their physical health, all the above. Scott Brady (33:41.201) Yeah, I would totally agree. And like what an incredible experience to be able to spend that many years advocating for the wild spaces of our country. And, you know, it's important that overlanders know that like I've had conversations up and down your organization and no one has ever told me that they were anti motorized travel. In fact, they were very clear that they were not anti motorized travel. They just want people to be aware of the impact. Mark Nevils (34:08.979) people to be aware of. Scott Brady (34:11.025) that they have when they're out there with a vehicle in the same way that they need to be mindful of the impact that they have when they're backpacking. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (34:18.81) Totally, yeah, yeah, you know, in a lot of ways, self-contained units can be less impactful than other activities. It all depends on how we approach it. And so, you know, no one way of getting outside is better than the others. They're just different. Scott Brady (34:32.711) Yeah, they are very different for sure. that's what an amazing story. 2,500 nights of camping. Let your legend, your legend, your legend. That's amazing. Mark Nevils (34:39.598) Yeah, I'm jealous. I'm jealous. I was gonna say, feel like knowing what I know of you, Scott, and what Bryce just told me, feel like I'm, yeah, I'm the low man on the totem pole when it comes to like, Knights on the ground. Scott Brady (34:54.291) Not at all. mean, look at what you're contributing to our industry with not only your time at Polaris. I had great experiences with the Polaris team. guys there were very interested in how you reduce impact and get people out into the back country. Now you're helping individuals and families do that with your self-contained units. Yeah, that's all really great. Let's talk a little bit about What you're seeing Bryce around remote workers, Starlink has really opened up the back country for prolonged use. What are some things that you guys are being mindful around that with Leave No Trace? you starting to incorporate that into some of your training and your messaging? How do people be a little more careful about instead of now you can only be in the back country for a day or two or you need to be fairly close to a cell coverage. Now you're three hours deep. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (35:56.324) Yeah, you know, you're totally right. The rise of van life and just being able to get out there for more extended periods of times have really opened up a lot of spaces for people to spend considerable amounts of time in. And that's not a bad thing per se, as long as people are taking into account a couple things. I'm with you on that with the Starlink and my solar setup. The only limiting factor to how much time I can spend out in the back country in the rig is my black tank, which is a couple of weeks. Scott Brady (36:24.317) Yep. Right. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (36:25.632) And so with that, we just really want to be mindful of our impact, choosing those durable sites, being really mindful of our waste and the fires that go along with it. And something too I like to, you know, a lot of people in this current age are using apps like free campsites.net, iOverlander to find all these dispersed sites. And they're great tools. But the trouble with dispersed camping full time on public lands is we're not contributing sometimes to the financial well-being of those public lands being managed with fees and things. So I really encourage people to volunteer with those public lands, with the Forest Service, with the BLM, so they can kind of give back in a proactive way to make up for some of that. Moab does this really well with their trail ambassadors and a lot of volunteer programs that they have locally, but really any chance we can give back to kind of make up for utilizing those spaces if we're living or working on them. helps in the overall health of them. Scott Brady (37:25.895) Well, that's really that's great insight, Bryce. And I didn't I hadn't considered that because I don't ever I don't I probably do spend 20 or 30 nights a year on public land camping out in some capacity or another. But that's that's really interesting about how how else can people give back? So you talked about volunteering with the Forest Service or with the BLM, you know, maybe taking some time to police your campsite so that someone else doesn't have to do that. So leave with more trash than what you collected yourself. And then what are some organizations that people can donate to that help to, in addition to Leave No Trace, of course, but what are some other places that people can give back? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (38:20.61) Yeah, so almost every type of public land that you get out on a local BLM site, a Forest Service site, or a national park, they almost always have a friends of group or a local stewardship group that kind of acts as the helper to the land manager for the stewardship of those places. You know, there's a different one for every place you get outside, and so do the research on your favorite ones, find out what that group is, and those are a good way, a good organization to get in touch with. Scott Brady (38:44.647) Yeah. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (38:50.614) you know, there's always volunteering, swinging a pickaxe and helping build trails or doing the micro cleanups in your campsite and making sure you're bringing out more trash than you're bringing in. But you can also be a volunteer educator, right? Spreading the word about these Leave No Trace principles, about systems that help us minimize the impact. Your sphere of influence is a good way to spread that information. So volunteer education is something I often rely on. Scott Brady (39:16.287) What programs does Leave No Trace have for becoming a volunteer educator? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (39:22.338) Yeah, so on our Leave No Trace website, we have a portal to sign up as a volunteer. It'll connect you with your local state advocate. Every single US state has a advocate that really aligns volunteer opportunities and events for Leave No Trace in their state. And you just get connected in that system. So say, you know, I live here in Nevada. If there's a cleanup up near Lake Tahoe by my house, I'll get pinged when those happen and we can really put some feet on the ground and know how I can give back. Scott Brady (39:53.329) Yeah, that's, that's awesome. And, tread lightly has similar programs. have their master trainer program so that you can, you get, you actually get training on how to have a conversation with another user on the trail about why taking their, you know, ATV over, over the brush was a bad idea. and there's a lot that can be learned about how to do that. Mark, let's talk a little bit about what you and your team are doing to help increase awareness. Obviously, you guys are becoming a partner of Leave No Trace, which is one of the most powerful ways to do that because that's how these really important organizations like Leave No Trace are able to continue to operate. But what are some other ways that either you've integrated in with the vehicles or that you have in your future plans or that you have in your current value sets? as an organization that helped to reduce impact. Mark Nevils (40:50.166) Absolutely. I'll put on my enterprise hat for a second here. You again, I mentioned I work for the Winnebago brand specifically, but we have such an awesome family of brands, both Marine and RV. And collectively, we all ladder up to our Winnebago Industries Enterprise. And when you look at the value proposition, they have the principles. It's about doing the right thing, putting people first. supporting community, supporting our environment. We all have those values in place. The tagline for Winnebago Industries is be great outdoors. And really they're trying to have everybody live their best life in a way that's not impacting the environment that's gonna take that opportunity away for somebody else. From the Winnebago brand specific standpoint, on the manufacturing side, obviously environmental sustainability is a big goal for us. We're working on converting a lot of our factories to be zero waste type facilities. We're on a really good path for that right now. But I think we're also trying to look to the future. We've talked about the Echo and the Revel and some of the units that we have right now that really do offer opportunities to help people not have that impact. One of the projects we did recently too was an all electric RV prototype. Really the fact that it was electric was the least exciting part of it. It was about all the little bits and pieces that went into it where we're starting to experiment with things. And I thought it was interesting you guys were talking about how work life, work on the road, van life has become growing, you know, and that touches on something we haven't really hit on a little bit. It's the ancillary experience impact you have on other people, you know. You look at people working from the road. mean, I think we've all been either on a plane or in an elevator with somebody just like jacking on their AirPods, having a conversation as if no one else is there. Imagine that was happening at the campsite next to you, you know? And even something as simple as the light pouring out of your RV. And really when someone's over at the next campsite wanting to absorb, you know, a meteor shower or something like that, there's little subtle pieces of that that Scott Brady (42:54.555) Yeah. Mark Nevils (43:08.768) also impact the experiential environment. We looked at lighting systems that do the kind of low impact red light at night where you can still retain your night vision and be able to operate. Those are things we're experimenting with right now. We wanna continue to elevate all experiences of being outdoors in terms of impact on the environment, but just when you're there, giving you that experience without taking it away from somebody else. Scott Brady (43:34.973) Well, and I would think, Mark, that the fact that you're making these more overland suitable models, they're going to be more durable. They're going to last longer. They're not going to end up in a landfill because the way that they're constructed, they're durable. They can last for decades and decades of use. That's one thing that comes to mind. The other thing that I really like is that you're offering all-wheel drive or four-wheel drive solutions. So just... the RV being all wheel drive or four wheel drive will immediately reduce the impact. So an RV that's two wheel drive, if it loses traction, you're gonna end up with wheel spin and you're gonna end up with displacing of materials, some trail erosion, things that are part of tread lightly as well. So the fact that you're making all wheel drive and four wheel drive solutions will automatically reduce impact. It'll reduce impact. if there's a little bit of mud or some moisture on the road, it's going to reduce a lot of that vehicle-based damage by offering four-wheel drive. So that alone is a great start. Mark Nevils (44:43.372) Absolutely. I think one of the other pieces of it, and again, this is something that we're really excited about, is this partnership with Lead No Trace because one of the benefits to Winnebago having the breadth of a community that we have, and this is the same for all of our family of brands at Winnebago, is the network we have of customers and our ability to affect change at a larger scale. by creating people that are gonna raise their hand and say, okay, I pledge to live by these principles, these seven pieces that leave no traces working on with us, whether I'm in a boat or in an RV or whatever it is, and then evangelize that amongst their network. And so that's really where we can turn something small into something big, is just getting more people on board as far as that goes. And another way that we do that is we have a really fantastic set of ambassadors who I feel probably have way more in common with you two than I do just based on what they've done. Bryce and I were just talking about one set of them. Peter and Kathy Holcomb are our oldest rebel ambassadors and they have a site called Famagogo.com. They're currently on a rebel expedition where they started at the Arctic Circle and they're going all the way down to the tip of Argentina and pad through Patagonia and back. Scott Brady (45:57.479) Okay. Scott Brady (46:05.643) Awesome. Awesome. Mark Nevils (46:09.194) They've been frequent blog contributors on our Winnebago Life blog about kind of a backcountry code of ethics and have seen a lot of this through all the countries you're talking about. And these are really the types of stories that I hear and see what they're experiencing. And then we're enabling them to help do these things because they have a great blog of their own. We share their material out and they come to shows and events for us and can really talk the talk about these kinds of overlending backcountry experiences that you see. So that's a great way I like to do it because they're real people. They're not just a face from the OEM. know what mean? This is their family. They've raised their daughter on the road. Her daughter is now a medal winning freestyle kayaker because it enabled her to go from river to river to where these cool rapids were to stay on top of training. It's a great testament to what the outdoors can create for you and your family. Scott Brady (46:50.131) Incredible. Mark Nevils (47:08.46) I think the more that we can do that, you know, as a company enable those stories to get out there. It helps inspire other people to say, I wish I had a little bit of that in my life too, in my family. Scott Brady (47:17.895) Well, that's amazing what you guys are doing, not only to support Leave No Trace, but to support families like Famagogo out on the road, traveling internationally, using your product and showing how it works in the field. We're going to kind of start to wrap this up a little bit, but Bryce, what are some other things that you've learned in your vehicle-based travel that you think... can remind the audience of things to be conscious of, especially when it comes to interacting with other use case scenarios. So you're camped out and you've got hikers coming through the campsite. How do we help foster those relationships? How do we improve relationships between use groups? How do we be sensitive to other users on the trail? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (48:11.854) Yeah, you're totally right that sometimes those user conflicts can be a difficult part of sharing the outdoors, right? We always say we're making a lot more people, but not a lot more land. And so we need to share what we have in a kind, considerate way and be respectful of every way people get outside. you know, Scott Brady (48:22.995) Yeah. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (48:32.694) Even if we're all doing different activities, we get the same benefits from nature, right? We get a sense of adventure, a sense of purpose, maybe some quiet and solitude. That doesn't matter whether you're hiking, bird watching, or out on your, you know, your revel way in the back country. Any of those modes of transportation or getting outdoors are going to get us to those benefits and everyone should be as entitled to them as anyone else. And so really it just kind of comes down to not othering each other, seeing everyone as co-rec... creators, regardless of how you get outside, and then giving space and time as well for those experiences. just being considerate as things like Mark was talking about earlier, shielded our red lights on our rig so that we're not blinding other campers. Being mindful of our noise is a big one. We're in shared spaces, Noise travels, especially when we're around water, so making sure that we're Mark Nevils (49:14.382) you Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (49:27.742) minimizing that at later hours, not just blasting music. That makes everyone's experiences, especially in backcountry environments, better. And then just other things like minimizing our impacts in relation to human waste, right? No one likes showing up to a dispersed site and there's charm and flowers everywhere. toilet paper sticking out from bushes. And so when we're practicing Leave No Trace, we're making that a welcoming space for others no matter what they're doing when they come after us. So all those pieces just kind of work in tandem so that we can have sometimes millions of people on these landscapes and be minimally impactful and allow everyone an opportunity to enjoy it, to have their wow. Scott Brady (50:10.393) And even when you interact with hikers or let's say a bike packer comes along, one of the things that I find really helps is ask them if they need anything. Do you need water? Are you okay on food? We've got some nice chairs here. You're welcome to sit and relax for a little bit. know, offer up some of the things that you've brought with you that is only possible in a larger vehicle. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (50:21.721) Yeah. Scott Brady (50:38.021) Most of the time that they'll say no, but I've been surprised by the number of times that someone's like, you know, I'm pretty low on water and that would really be helpful. So just taking and maybe they're a little prideful or they don't, they don't want to ask or they're afraid to ask, but taking a moment and just saying something like, Hey, thanks for being out here. You know, isn't this beautiful? What a beautiful play. How lucky are we to be here? And, you know, and also Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (50:44.271) Yeah. Scott Brady (51:04.613) On the other side, recognizing that not everybody has the same degree of mobility that we do. mean, Mark, you and I can rip and tear on our motorcycles out in the back country, but not everybody can do that or not everybody can hike or walk back into the places that they want to see. So understanding that everybody has a stage of life and some people have limited mobility and the four wheel drive or something like that may be the only way that they can access those spaces. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (51:33.08) Yeah, you're totally right about that. I was in the Needles District of Canyonlands not too long ago and you know, I had hiked eight miles back to this beautiful area and you know, this pretty sweet Jeep with a rooftop tent came by and it was, you know, someone who with a disability was still getting out there to that same place and experiencing that same enjoyment. So it is a great way for people to access these areas and all the more reason to share them. Scott Brady (51:39.11) Epic. Scott Brady (51:59.047) Well, we're to have to delve into a bit of a crappy subject here, but I think it's let's bring up human waste again, because it is really important. We know that the RV makes a huge improvement in that situation. We want, if we have a vehicle that has the payload or the capability, we should be packing out a hundred percent of our human waste. But let's say someone is on a motorcycle or the crapper's full or whatever. and someone needs to use the restroom in the back country, how do they do that properly? What's Leave No Trace's current stance on that? A lot of people were raised to think that they should burn their toilet paper. And we know that that is something we do not want people to do anymore. So what's the current Leave No Trace approach towards human waste? Mark Nevils (52:37.195) Thank Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (52:50.146) Yeah, so there's a spectrum of how we approach human waste and on, you know, the most least impactful side, it's going to be using our restroom and our camper or using a wag bag, which is a pack out bag for our waste. There are a lot of commercially available products that make it cheap and easy to pack out our waste and our toilet paper with us. That's the least impactful option, but. Cat holes in most environments are still generally acceptable. And when I say a cat hole, it's a six to eight inch hole. That layer of soil is important. That's where the most microbes and bacteria and soil are to break down human waste over time. And the other important number to remember for cat holes is we want them to be 200 feet or 70 big steps away from water. Because when it rains, the water will trickle down and will seep through the soil. And we want it to be filtered before it gets to that natural water source, the lake, the stream, anything like that. So cat holes almost everywhere are still acceptable. There may be some things we want to keep in mind. If it's an area with hundreds of thousands of visitors a year, cat holes might still be ineffective because there's so many of people there in so many cat holes. But wag bags are a great option as well. And you can get them most any outdoor store. A lot of land managers will actually make them available for free. Escalante is a good example of that. You can go to the BLM office there and pick up as many wag bags as you need because they don't want it in the Escalante River. Any of those are good methods. We do recommend, as you say, not burning toilet paper because that's a fire risk. If we can pack it out in a ziplock that's sealed really well, we just don't want it to end up outdoors. We can bury it at the bottom of our cat hole if we need to. You know, thinking about that spectrum, that's a good option if cat holes are an acceptable way to poop outside. Mark Nevils (54:43.896) Hey Bryce, I was just gonna ask, does that extend to our four-legged friends we bring with us? Scott Brady (54:44.01) that's really helpful. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (54:52.036) Good point. So pet waste is actually the third biggest contaminant of most water sources in the US. We spend billions of dollars filtering out pet waste from our drinking water, but the natural environment doesn't really have that advantage. So packing out pet waste is our best option if we can. If we can't do that, yeah, a dog hole, if you will, is a good way to dispose of that in a back country ecosystem too. If we're... Scott Brady (55:19.621) Yeah, pack it out. If you go to the local park, you don't leave your pet waste for some kid to step on barefoot. You know, we're supposed to pack out our animals waste and it's pretty easy to do that. They've got, you know, little wag bags for dog poop. People know how to use them. So don't just use the campsite as another place for your pet to poop everywhere. Mark Nevils (55:24.515) Yeah. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (55:44.11) Yeah, yeah, a lot of leash laws are actually in place so that we can manage our pets' waste, you know, knowing where it's at, because when they're just running around, it can be harder to spot when they poop and where it gets left behind. And remember, any one instance isn't a big deal, but there are millions and millions, tens of millions of dogs in the US, and that's where it really starts to add up. Scott Brady (55:54.772) that's a good point, Scott Brady (56:04.023) That's great. Mark, any other thoughts that you'd love to share with the audience around minimizing our impact, ways that they can get involved, any other advocates or ambassadors that you have that they can follow and learn more about these things? Mark Nevils (56:24.334) That's a good question. I I think it really comes down to a partnership on everybody's part as individuals. We are trying as a corporation, we're trying to do the big things right. We're trying to, again, create a better pathway to how these vehicles are created in the first place. Whether it's diversion of waste from landfills, anything that we know has larger base, kind of the big hitters from an environmental impact. peace overall. That's kind of our side of it. The rest of it is empowering. I mentioned just a couple of our ambassadors. The Winamigo website, you can see several other ones that we've got on there. But the communities themselves is probably the most exciting part because none of those people are ambassadors from a corporate relationship standpoint. Every time they go camping, to your point, they're the ones that are raising their hands saying, do you need water? Do you need this? They're setting that example. And so I really think that that and what we're able to do with Leave No Trace now is kind of a partner. want to create ambassadors of every single Winnebago owner, every single Neumar owner, every single one of our family or brands, whether they're boating or being, if they can become, you know, kind of de facto ambassadors for Leave No Trace at the very least in terms of their impact on the environment. that's really where we're going to make waves. And so I think that's probably what I think we're most excited about and just based on the timing of this. And I think there's no better group to do it with Bryce. And I think we really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you today on this podcast, especially because overlanding continues to grow and people, know, capabilities continue to create even more access. So the sooner we can kind of create that cultural change amongst people's mindset when it comes to this stuff about thinking ahead and just creating a framework so that their intention does reflect in their impact. We'll all be in a better place and so will our children. Scott Brady (58:24.659) Yeah, thank you for that, Mark. And thank you to you and to your organization for the support that you're providing to Leave No Trace. It means a lot to me because it's an organization that I really believe in. Now, Bryce, do you have any kind of wrapping up thoughts? What was your favorite piece of gear that you camped out with 2,500 times? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (58:48.282) That's a tough one, I tell you what, the hammock is a pretty good luxury in a lot of areas. you know, after a long work day in the back country, being able to put it up between the tailgate and a tree is a good way to spend that afternoon. Yeah. Scott Brady (58:53.667) I like that. I like that. Scott Brady (59:03.783) Yeah, and a testament to a Subaru too. Those things are, those cars never cease to amaze me. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (59:10.87) Yeah, I tell you what, the rock crawling I did with that Subaru was pretty impressive. They're capable vehicles. Mark Nevils (59:10.892) Absolutely. Scott Brady (59:14.643) I believe it. I believe it. believe. Well, Bryce, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you for your tireless efforts for Leave No Trace. Your entire team has always been a joy to interact with. And I'm really excited to see what's coming from Leave No Trace in the years to come for these increased partnerships with vehicle manufacturers, with Overlanders and the Overland community. I think it's just going to be a really exciting time coming up. Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (59:47.394) Yeah, agreed. you know, one last plug I'll add is there's always more to learn, right? I always say you can't do better unless you know better and, you know, go to learn.lnt.org and really take some of those online courses and really put that outdoor ethic to use. Scott Brady (01:00:04.333) That's great. Well, thank you both for your time today. And everybody, how can people follow Leave No Trace on social media? Is it just at Leave No Trace? Brice Esplin - Leave No Trace (01:00:14.382) Yep, at Leave No Trace on most platforms. think TikTok might be Leave No Trace organization, but easy to find us. Scott Brady (01:00:21.809) Okay, that's great. And Mark, how about people get in touch? Is it just at Winnebago on Instagram and other spots? Mark Nevils (01:00:28.878) Absolutely, yeah, and on Instagram and kind of those socials were Winnebago RVs typically. also, know, winnebago.com on the web and then to access our whole family of RV brands, Winnebago Industries is that the enterprise level and that gets you to all the RV and marine brands we've got. So lots of good stuff. Scott Brady (01:00:47.715) Awesome. Well, thank you guys for the time today. And we really appreciate you being on the podcast. And we thank you all for listening. And we'll talk to you next time.