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147 Are Coding Bootcamps Worth It? · DevQuestions with Tim Corey

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Dev Questions Podcast with Tim Corey.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Join us each episode as we tackle the questions you are asking about a career in software development, understanding the industry, and new technology.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you're just starting out or you want to grow stronger as a developer, this is the place to get your questions answered.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's your host, expert developer and online educator, Tim Corey.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Are coding boot camps worth it?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a question that got asked on the suggestion site.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: I thought it'd be one that we should tackle in today's episode of DevQuestions.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if you have a suggestion, go to suggestions.iamtimcorey.com, leave it there, and hopefully you'll see your question answered on a future episode of Dev Questions.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: So coding boot camps, worth it, not worth it?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Are they great?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Are they a scam?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: What's going on?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you know the general answer you're always going to get for any question, it depends.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: But let's be more specific.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: It depends on you and it depends on them.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about first what are coding boot camps.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Let's define that a little bit.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then let's talk about how to evaluate if you're a good fit for a bootcamp.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Then we'll go into how to evaluate them to see if they're a good fit for you.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: And finally, we'll get my thoughts on boot camps in general and in this way of learning C sharp specifically or any uh software development language.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So let's start with a general overview.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: A boot camp is typically one of two things, either full-time, meaning 40 hours a week or more, or part-time, like 10 to 20 hours a week.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: But either way, it's a very concentrated program where you're meant to really dive deep into the material, just like a normal boot camp for, say, the military, where you go and you're you're solely focused on, I need to build up these skills.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: I need to, in a short amount of time, have a lot of skills added to my repertoire.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it's usually full-time, but there are some part-time boot camps as well.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about the differences there.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: But uh generally three to six months.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's the goal is to get you in and get you out.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Get you in, get you trained, get you up to speed on whatever you're learning, and then get you out into the workforce.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: So three to six months is generally a time frame.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: I have seen some that go longer, which begs the question how long's a boot camp?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Boot camp's usually a shorter thing, not a forever thing.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I have seen some that go shorter, which to me seems like a rapid fire thing, more like a quick training rather than a really in-depth training.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: So three to six months is about general.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: As far as price goes,$10,000 to$20,000 in the US is about what you're going to expect out of a boot camp.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: The thought process here is: well, if you went to, again in the US, if you went to a four-year college and got a degree, you'd have less skill and training than you get from a boot camp in that specific area.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And you'd also spend, oh, 10 to 20 times as much money on your education.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: And oh, by the way, take four years or more to get that education.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: So compared to going to a college and getting a four-year degree in the US, it's much, much cheaper and much, much faster.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: But$10,000 to$20,000 is still quite a bit of money.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then finally, the goal of a boot camp is to teach you quickly.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's to, you know, really sit you in a chair, tilt your head back, and just bury you with knowledge and just show as much into your brain as they can get in in a short amount of time as possible.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because the goal is you want to get in, get out, and get that job.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of what a boot camp is designed around.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the kind of the parameters that are typical in most boot camps.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk now about how to evaluate if you're right for a boot camp.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: So the first question I'm going to ask is: are you good at picking up things quickly?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: The whole point of a boot camp is to go rapidly through a lot of material.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: And this can be overwhelming to some people.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: For instance, you may learn a topic or a piece that you need to know for development, you need to know it for a lot of other things, but you may learn it over the course of one or two days and then move on.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to now be able to do that for the rest of your training, knowing just those two days of training.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: So can you absorb it?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Can you capture all that information and then move on to the next thing you have to learn?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And how many of those can you do in a week?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: And oh, by the way, then start applying that right away.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: So do you pick things up very quickly?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you work well under pressure?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's the whole point of a boot camp is to kind of put you under that pressure, to kind of force you to say, I don't have a choice but to get this.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so some people work very well under pressure.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: The idea that I have a deadline, I have to do is I I can't not do this.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna just kind of sacrifice my free time, I'm gonna sacrifice, you know, taking my time, I'm gonna just get this done.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if you work well under that pressure, then it's a benefit to you.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: So also, do you just have the time?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have one friend that went through a boot camp and he literally quit his job because it became more than a full-time job.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: He ended up spending about 70 to 80 hours a week on the boot camp.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have time for a job at that point.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you have time for this boot camp?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now, part-time boot camps are designed to work around a job, kind of, but that still means that you have to dedicate maybe 10 to 15 hours, maybe 20 hours a week to classroom learning, but that's not all the time you have to dedicate.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: You also have to dedicate quite a bit of time to absorbing that information, to practicing that information, and then to doing the assignments to prove that you know how to do what you just said you learned.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: So do you have the time to dedicate to that?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because I can tell you what, if you don't have the time, if you say, I'm just gonna do the classroom hours and a little bit extra, you're gonna fall behind.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And once you fall behind in a boot camp, it is very, very hard to catch back up.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Typically, what happens is people will drop out of the boot camp and then maybe come back the next semester and try and pick it back up.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that can be expensive.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: It can be either a full other cost of that boot camp, or if the boot camp can work with you, they might give you a discount on the next time around, or may make it for free, but that doesn't typically seem to happen.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: So there's the idea that can you spend enough time on this so that you don't fall behind?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, once you fall behind, it's kind of too late.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then finally, do you have the money to do so?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I really cringe.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I sell training.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm kind of in this boat, but not, I mean, I'm nowhere near the cost of boot camps, but still, I have people that say, oh, I'm I'm stretching, I'm saving, I'm I'm hoping to eventually pay for your content.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that makes me a little nervous because yes, I absolutely think that my training is worth it.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I absolutely believe that my training can help you elevate yourself and get into a better position at work or a better job somewhere.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: However, you gotta be very careful that you don't spend too much money on training where you're really sacrificing everything on the hope that maybe this will work out.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I encourage you to think through your finances.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: Try not to go into debt on this.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's a lot of money and you might not have an option there, but try to figure out is this really going to be worth me going out of debt?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Am I really going to commit to this?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Am I really going to succeed in this?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: And is there what I can try this out first?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because when you don't have the money, it's can you an added pressure, and you're already under pressure in a boot camp, having an added pressure of I have to make this work the first time, and I have to be able to do this, and I have to be able to succeed, can be really a much greater added burden.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: So be careful with your finances here to make sure that you really have enough money and you could survive beyond just the boot camp even without getting a job if you pay this money.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my thoughts on evaluating you.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to evaluate you because different people learn differently, different people succeed differently, different people have different personalities when it comes to learning.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I can't make a blanket statement, this is good or this is bad, because it all depends on what works for you.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Now let's evaluate them because this is really important.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: If you say, you know what, I think I'm right for a bootcamp.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think that a boot camp would really help me.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think that my personality is going to fit well with the fast pace.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can learn things, I can, I have the time, I have the money, uh, I do well under pressure and all the rest, then I think boot camps are right for me.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then let's evaluate them so you get the right bootcamp.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: They will tell you, there are a number of boot camps out there that are not much more than just a way to take your money.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that's true of any industry.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: There are there are organizations out there that are more focused on getting from you than they are in giving you the value that you're paying for.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: So let's evaluate and find the good ones rather than just anyone that says they're a boot camp.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: So the first thing to look at is what's their graduation rate?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this can be a deceptive number.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Numbers can lie based upon how people calculate.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to do some investigation here and ask some pointed questions.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um based upon what?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So when you start a class of, I don't know, 20, are you saying that 19 graduate?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Or are you saying that after a certain point we have a two-week dropout period?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, how many people go past the two-week dropout point?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, eight.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you're saying is 12 don't even make it to the point of the dropout point.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so your real graduation rate is lower than 50%.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you gotta look at those numbers and really see what they're mean by what's the graduation rate.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: How many people succeed versus how many people start in the program.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this again is a tricky number because good programs will also be hurt by students who just aren't cut out for this.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now, hopefully, a good program will be evaluated and saying, you know what, I don't think this is the right spot for you.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Or they'll say, hey, you know what?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: We have a two-week free trial window to see if this is right for you.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's not, you don't pay anything.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that doesn't really count against them then, because you could take advantage of that as well and say, hey, I want to try this out.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: But making sure that you understand what their graduation rate is, why people drop out, why people don't succeed is gonna be an important thing.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Now, um, next up, what's their placement rate?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of these for-profit code camps or boot camps or things like that, they're they are required to track their placement rate.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now, not all of them are, but some of them are required to track their placement rate to say, hey, when a person graduates, we get them a job within six months.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: We make sure they have a job or or they get a job within six months.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: We track that.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And here's the placement rate 80%.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: So of the 10 people that graduate, eight have a job within six months in their field.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Also important.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because they could say, well, you know, 80% of them have a job after they, six months after they graduate.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but is it in their field or are they working at Walmart as a cashier?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because, okay, nothing against Walmart cashiers, but that's probably not why they went to the boot camp.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it probably didn't help them in that job.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: So let's make sure that they're getting that job.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Their placement rate is about getting jobs in their field.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Next up, what do their graduates have to say?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: And you're gonna get some great stories.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna hear people say, Oh, my life was totally changed.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: This is awesome, because they came and they're they're handpicked by the person that is running the boot camp to give their story.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: They've got a great story and they want to share that.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not a bad thing.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Those people are genuine typically.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: So the only thing is it doesn't teach the whole story.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't show the whole story of what a typical graduate says.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's one success story out of a thousand, or maybe it's one out of five.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: There's a big difference there.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so what you want to do is find places outside of the boot camp's control and find out what graduates are saying.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Ask around, look on forums, look to see if you find any other graduates.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And what do they say about the program?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Now, with anything, if you see a review, you know you have to take a grain of salt because there are really two people that give, or two types of people that give reviews.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: They're the people who had a wildly successful time.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so they go to the, let's say, a boot camp and they graduate and they immediately have a high-paying job and they're thrilled and want to share that.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's the one end of the spectrum.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: The other end of the spectrum are the people who had a horrible time.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they had a bad teacher or they have a bad experience and not a student, even.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it really left a sour taste in their mouth, and so they evaluate the one star.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: They're the the other side of things.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: That can be misleading when it comes to looking online.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because you see, they've got an average three-star rating.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: We ask, but if they have all fives or all ones.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: But the question is, you need to evaluate each of those situations and figure out why it is a five-star?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Why is it a one-star?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is this because they knew somebody and so they got a good job because their dad knew somebody and so they were able to get them a good job when they graduated, and it was kind of not what you would face.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, on the other side, is that situation really the school's fault or is it the person's fault?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And is this an isolated incident or is this a recurring problem?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: So when you evaluate what the graduates say, just remember you're not seeing the whole picture, just kind of the ends, the ends of the spectrum.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: If you can find people in the middle, that'd be great.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Just find out, hey, what's your experience?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, good and bad, just tell you what's going on.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then does this corporation or company have a good reputation in the industry?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Preferably, they have a track record of success over time.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of pop-up boot camps where they've not been around for very long, or maybe they've been around but they've changed a name a few times.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of look back and find out why.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because maybe it's just a corporate restructure and better evaluating what their name should be, and that's fine.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes it's, hey, we're we're evading this problem with the law, or we've got this problem with the government, and so we're, you know, create a new corporation that's not associated with the old corporation, but it's the same people.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: So making sure they have a good reputation.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen way too many uh shady organizations that say they're a boot camp that you know look flashy, they have great PR, they have great marketing, but the actual bootcamp itself is not much more than a scam.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: So be careful when looking for the right one.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: There are great ones out there.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying there's not.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: There absolutely are.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Just be careful to find the great ones.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Don't just pick one that looks great.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so that's you know what you should do or be prepared for and if evaluate yourself.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's how you evaluate the boot camp.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about my thoughts on boot camps.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Boot camps absolutely serve a purpose in the industry, and they absolutely are valuable to a small group of people.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when I say small, that doesn't mean you know very, very few.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: That means thousands and thousands of people compared to the overall million people plus that are in the software development industry and are learning.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: So there's definitely a purpose for boot camps.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: They definitely can be a positive influence in your life.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: They can definitely help you launch into a career in software development.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: But it all depends on are you right for them and are they the right ones?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: So there is a group of people they work for.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: But if it doesn't work for you, or if you you started one, it just doesn't, you can't get it.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Don't think that that's because you are less than, or because you know you're just not good enough.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: It just means that's not the right way for you to learn.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: So this is why I don't do training boot camps.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I may in the future at some point, I don't know, don't don't quote me on this.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but right now what I what I do is I teach with an asynchronous learning style, where you know, you buy a course from me, which by the way is you know 5% of what a boot camp costs, but covers the same material or more, and you get to learn at your own pace.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now you don't have an instructor breathing down your neck.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now I do have like the year of coding where it says, hey, this is what to do this week, and this is what to do next week, and so on, but that's not really an instructor, and it's not really a person that is physically present in a classroom with you.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a little different, and it's not quite as fast-paced, and it's not quite as, you know, take all the time out of your schedule, and it's not quit your job in order to do this type of work.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's fit it in when it fits your situation.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: So there's differences there.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I teach a different way, and you know what?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: I serve a different audience.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: There are people that that will not work for.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: There are people that my training is not the right way for them to go.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that's okay.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: There are people that are right for boot camps that aren't right for my training, and there's people that are right for my training that aren't right for boot camps, and there are some crossover.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, what you need to do is evaluate what works for me.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: How do I learn and what's gonna best help me get to my goal?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: So evaluate what's right for you personally.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: If you have a person that tells you this is the only way of doing this, avoid them, they're selling you something and they're doing it in an unethical way.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: There are good things to do.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: There are good ways to learn.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: I personally love the way I, you know, the way I teach is the way I want to learn.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of the reason why I like it, because this helps me.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think if it helps me, it will help others too.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it does, but it's not the only way.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: So make sure when you're evaluating a boot camp that you don't say, this is the only way to learn, or if I don't succeed here, it must mean that I can't learn.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Also, be cautious.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Be cautious with boot camps.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Boot camps can, again, can be great, but you just need to be careful that you don't get burned with one that's more about bringing people in than it is about actually training people.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure that you're having good time with a professor that's giving you good real-world training, and that you can absorb it fast enough for what they're doing.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then make sure that you evaluate your options.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: Don't just say, okay, boot camp, I'm gonna figure that out and I'm gonna do it.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Make sure it's the best option for you.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: There may be other options that are better for you depending on your finances, depending on your time, depending on your learning style, and so many other things.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: So this is one option.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: It can be a good option, but it all depends on you and your situation.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so that's my thoughts on coding boot camps, if they're right for you, and how to evaluate them to make sure you make a wise choice.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening, and as always, I am Tim Corey.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Dev Questions.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Tim is committed to making it easier for you to become a developer.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you would like to help make more content like this possible, please like, subscribe, rate, and share Dev Questions.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: You can also send your questions to questions at IamTimcore.com.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, remember, you are too smart and your time too valuable to waste it making all the mistakes Tim did.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: When you're ready to learn to think and code like a professional developer, head over to imtimcore.com and enroll in a course.