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Transcript

Author Insights—Balancing Multiple Series · Reality Writes

0:05
SPEAKER_01: Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another edition of Reality Rights.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: I am author Ellie Alexander.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: This is the podcast where we go behind scenes on books writing all things bookish.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: And I'm here with the tech guy.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Hello, hello.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh what are we?
0:20
SPEAKER_00: We're rolling into what episode is this?
0:24
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: No, I think it's past that.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: But regardless, if uh you're a first-time listener, welcome.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: And for those of you who've been with us since the beginning, uh, thank you, thank you.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, please uh please follow us uh on your favorite podcast platform or here on YouTube if you're watching.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: Um we also have cool video of our smiling faces.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you wouldn't mind dropping a review or rating, that would be awesome.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: And leave us some comments.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: Let us know what you think.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh, what do you want us to talk about?
1:04
SPEAKER_00: What are your burning reader or writer questions?
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Because we'll cover all the hard stuff here on reality rights.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we will.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: And we want to hear from our darling.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: So that's true.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Lay it on us.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: So this week we're gonna talk about writing multiple series.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Somebody I know has experience in that.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Just just math, just a tad.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh writing multiple series at the same time.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: Writing multiple series at the same time, although not necessarily writing them simultaneously.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: So there's a difference.
1:45
unknown: Yes.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: But there is a difference there.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:50
unknown: Yeah.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: Should I just dive into that?
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you're you so we're we're covering the fact that you you you write multiple series.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Um you have um, you know, but you're you're only working on one book at uh in a series at a time, and then move on to the next series, as it were.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Um so it's not like you're writing the same book at the same time.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: But maybe we'll get into that.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: If that's uh where where do you want to start?
2:21
SPEAKER_00: Because I know there are a lot of steps to it.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: There are so many talking points for this one.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good place to start because this is a question I get asked often by readers and writers, you know, like both ends of the spectrum.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: How are you writing multiple series at the same time?
2:37
SPEAKER_01: So it is not as if I start my morning and I'm at tort.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, for any uh new listeners or darlings out there, one of my long-running series is the Bake Shop Mysteries, and I am currently working on book 21 in that series.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's not as if I start my morning writing that series and then I take a break for lunch and I shift and I'm suddenly writing the my new secret bookcase mysteries.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: That would be bonkers.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: I could not keep my head straight at all.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: But what I mean by writing more series than once is these books are coming out from multiple series throughout the year.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that will tie into kind of scheduling.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: But also one thing that I will often do is I will write a really shitty first draft.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, you can beat me out for that, but um it's true, you should.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I I recommend this to all my writing students.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: Just crank out a first draft.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: That's about getting the story on the page, that's really about plot.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: Everything else happens in editing.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: So I will do that, let's say for Bake Shop.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: I'll finish Bake Shop 21 in a week or so here, and I'll set it aside and I won't touch it, and I will start maybe editing book five of the secret bookcase series.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: So it gives my brain a little break.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: And then once I've finished editing book five of the secret bookcase mysteries, then I'll go back and I'll start editing Bake Shop 21.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: So there's sort of a rhythm to it.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: But so let's talk about scheduling because you you had mentioned that, and I think that's on our list of topics.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, there's really two different schedules.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: There's the writing schedule, and there's the well, three schedules really.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: I guess there's the writing schedule, there's the publishing schedule, and there's the marketing schedule.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: And those those all connect, they all overlap, they're all integrated.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we should probably start with the writing schedule.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: Like how does it work?
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so especially in writing multiple series, there is there are a lot of things to juggle.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: And I should say I am not alone in this at all.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: In fact, darlings, many of your favorite writers are likely writing multiple series because if you're trying to carve out an income as a writer, that's that's one of the ways that you're able to earn um, you know, even a livable wage, potentially.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: For some writers, not even a legible livable wage.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think most of us as writers have multiple ideas and stories that we want to tell.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: So um I think again, this we did a whole podcast on organization, but this really does go back to thinking at this stage, you know, you and I are looking two years out, three years out sometimes in terms of pub dates and marketing schedules.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then backtracking that to be like, okay, well, I know the next bake shop mystery is coming out in August of 2025.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: I need to deliver that book, you know, in November of 2024 and like working my way back from that.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: So I need to start that book in July.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's that's usually at least a launching point for creating the schedule.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: And you so you're you're taking you you're writing based on release date, obviously.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, and because you're both a traditionally published and indie published author, you do have some flexibility on one side, but not so much on the other, um, in terms of when when stuff is due.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: So you've just you you have to schedule things so that they line up um the different phases of the writing process line up and they don't overlap significantly, right?
6:27
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: And you know, one of the things that I do early on with my mystery writing students and my um private coaching clients is we work out a schedule like this.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think it's really helpful and motivating if you have some deadlines to hit.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: And so even if that deadline is self-imposed before you have a book contract, there's really something to building that structure in, especially at the early phase of your writing.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: Because then let's say once, you know, one of these students goes on and either publishes it independently themselves or lands a book deal, they're going to be in that same position where it's like, all right, now now game is on.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: Okay, book one is done.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: One's two coming, one's three, you're off to the races.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, so if you can establish some of these patterns early on, I think it's super helpful.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that gets that that gets hard too.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: The harder, the more series that you're writing concurrently, because um you there's only so much time.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: There are only so many hours in the day, there are only so many weeks in the year, you know, it just uh it and it adds up.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: Um so that covers the writing piece.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: Then what about the publishing piece?
7:33
SPEAKER_00: Because it's it works differently with um traditional versus indie.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the same steps need to be followed, but the timing is uh different a lot of the time.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Although before we jump to that, the one other benefit that I see um as a writer myself, and hopefully this comes through for readers, in um kind of switching back and forth between series is that when I'm writing, when I'm in a first draft, I am fully immersed in that world.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, with Bake Shop 21, this book is going to be set in Costa Rica.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: You and I went to Costa Rica earlier this year.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: I took copious notes and pictures.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: And so I have just been in Costa Rica on the page again, fictionally speaking, speaking for the last month and a half, two months, whatever it's been.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: And I have a harder time wanting to leave that world when I'm done writing a book, a first draft.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: I would keep being in that headspace, or I would be thinking, so this was early on in my writing career, especially, I'd be thinking about plots and I'd be thinking about things that needed to change.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: But what I've learned, and what I think is so critically important for every writer, and this is the piece that I hope comes through if you're reading one of my books, is that in order to really flesh out these worlds and bring them to life, you need some distance from that first draft.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: You have to set it aside for a chunk of time, whatever that means.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Now my windows of time have tightened.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: But early on, you know, I would set it aside for like six months and be able to come back to it with fresh eyes.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: Now maybe I'm setting it aside for a few weeks or a couple months.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: But the gift of switching and writing a different series while that first draft is resting is it takes my head out of that space.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: I have to focus on something new.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: I have to go be in a new world.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: So it really gives my brain a break from that book that I need some distance from.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: But so talk about that because you know, there might be a lot of writers or, you know, um prospective authors listening that that um you because I hear you say this all the time, but tell tell people why is it important that they get some distance from the that first draft?
9:56
SPEAKER_00: Why, why shouldn't they just dive right into the next phase of like layering in things for the second, third, fourth drafts?
10:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that you use it to layering.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: It's all it's all layering.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: Good job, good job.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: I've spent hours on that course content.
10:14
SPEAKER_00: Trust me.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Um I've probably watched it more than most of your students, to be honest, just through the editing process and everything.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: So why have you not written a mystery yet?
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Huh?
10:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, how do you know I haven't?
10:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh maybe maybe I'm using a maybe I'm using a pen name that you don't know about.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: We need a tech guy book who's with you, darling.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: We're totally honest by here.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: I need I need one more project.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: That is exactly what I need right now.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: But I know you have some book ideas in you.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: We should do a whole podcast about this.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: All right.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: All right.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm molding them to it.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, um, I think it's super important because um the headspace that you're in when you're writing a first draft is very different than the space that you need to be in when you're editing, and in my world, I call it layering.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: And that is, like I mentioned, the first draft is the bones of the story.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: It's just it's trying to push the plot forward.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: A first draft is not intended to be full of beautiful language and sentences that maybe read like poetry and all those sensory details.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is, if you are so immersed in a story, I think it's really impossible.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, there are probably writers out there who would um argue with me on this, and that's fine.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Like if that works for you, that's great.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: But my slant is that in order to really see where things aren't working and where things are working, you need to have a little time away from that story to be able to come back to it and go, oh, okay, I I can see where I was going here, or I can see this thread, and I'm gonna follow that more.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: Or, ooh, this character's really coming to life on the page, and I have no idea who this character is.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: I can't see them at all.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: Or wow, I just dropped an entire uh red herring there that never got closed at the end.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: If you read a draft too quickly, I don't think you have enough time away from it to be able to necessarily be able to really home in on those issues.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, it was something you said just reminded me real quick.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that it this doesn't work for every writer.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: And so people need advanced.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to remind the darlings out there that are listening that um, yeah, when I asked about like dropping stuff in the comments and everything, what I don't want to hear is well, Ellie, I was listening to so and so, and they said you should do this.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: That's great, that's wonderful.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: You want to do that, go for that.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: This is like this is reality rights, and we're gonna talk about things from your perspective when it comes to writing, my perspective when it comes to marketing and living with a writer and everything.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: So, so just just a reminder to everybody out there and those and and you know, information for those who may be new, everything we talk about here is what we've done, what we've learned, what's working for us.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: So uh definitely take that with a grain of salt, I guess.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: I do think that like the vast majority of at least my writing friends and peers would would share the same thing.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: And like every writing teacher I had in college and over the years, same thing.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, there's I mean, I need like I want that plastered on my forehead.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't need it now, but like early on I did it, and that's one of my giant talking points to um new writers is because I think you're so excited about the story.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you just want to keep going.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: But um, the gift of distance, it's important.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it's it's um, I mean, that that is true.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: But that what you just described is true, even in the world of like journalism or advertising, my my degree um in advertising.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: You you the more time you spend looking at something that you've created, the the uh higher the odds are that you're going to miss the glaring error, you know.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: Everything you just like because you you you might be looking at a misspelled word a hundred times and you're like, Yep, that looks great.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: Check, done.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: And then you get it back all marked up in red, and you're like, what happened?
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Like it just like you missed it because you've been looking at it.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you've you're too close to it.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: And then like uh that will happen all the time.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: And then six months later, I'll go and like read something that I wrote and go, Oh my gosh, there are two blaring errors here.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, so that's the initial schedule in terms of publishing, especially with series, each publishing house and method of publishing um kind of has its own model.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: And we're really in an interesting space, I think, right now, uh, with where the industry is going.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: So in traditional publishing, this would be like the big five houses, right?
14:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, usually you're publishing a book either once a year or two times a year for a series.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so for that, I'd hear sorry, every time, every time I hear this, I can't like for those those of you out there who watched the show Castle when it was on with Nathan Fillion.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: Um and uh Stanja Kotik, I think is well, everyone hating hated each other.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: I know, but on screen they had amazing chemistry.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um the the one-line castle, the character played a card game every month with very famous mystery writers um who in who played themselves in the series.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: So there was like now they're all their names are of course.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: James Patterson.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: James Patterson.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think James Patterson was the one on this on the show who was like they were they were giving Castle um crap one uh one game where and he said one book a year, Castle, seriously, one book.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: One lame, yeah, one book, yeah.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: And hey, one book uh is one more book than I've written.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: So like if people are writing one book a year, that's great, but it just every time I hear you say that, I always crack up.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: I so true about I love Nathan Fillion.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that show was just fantastic, too.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, okay, so for the big houses, you're probably publishing every six months to um once a year, and you're delivering a book a year in advance of either of those.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: This is wild.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Um so one So right now, all the all the indie published authors out there are like, what?
16:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, and you're like, Yeah, yeah, that's right.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: Because you have to think about it from like a publishing house perspective, they have hundreds, thousands, I don't know.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Like they have a lot of authors writing for them.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: And so they've got a lot of books coming out, and they can't release them all at the same time.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: And and they do market research about like when what genres sell best during which months, and you know, all of that.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: And and they don't want to stack similar titles up against each other and everything.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's all it's all predetermined.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, that that's crazy because earlier in this episode you said you were writing you're working on Bake Shop Ms.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: the bake the 21st Bake Shop mystery.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: The 19th just came out, like you know, just a month ago.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: A month ago.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: Not even, yeah.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: Not even, yeah.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the the 20th doesn't come out until February, right?
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: So it's uh huh, yeah.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: So that's a much longer schedule, right?
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Now um my my hybrid publisher, Storm, they're kind of they're in this in-between space.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's like I I have every end of the spectrum right now.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: We've got traditional publishing, we've got the storm model in the middle, which I sort of see as the real future of where the industry's going, and then um indie publishing over here.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: So with that, I um I will be releasing four one, two, oh, I gotta move my hand.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and now I just hit the mic.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, one, two, three, four, four books this year with their um model.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: That's that's wild.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, so the first two books released together at the end of June.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: I have um book three that will be coming out right after this podcast airs, and then book four will be coming out in November, quickly followed early next year by book five.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: So um they're really capturing this idea of the fact that readers and darlings out there, um, and myself as a darling of other series, tend to devour books pretty quickly.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so really building um a readership early on for new writers, too, you know, where instead of having to wait a year or two for your next book to come out, if a reader really enjoys a series, they're gonna be able to get books in a much faster model.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you're seeing that across all forms of media, honestly.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, it's definitely it's definitely happening with TV and movies and streaming, um, for sure.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it's also happening with uh podcasts too.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Even there are several podcasts I listen to where I'll listen to the most recent episode, and then I'm like, what you I have to wait a week for the next episode?
19:17
SPEAKER_00: A week?
19:18
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm like, as I'm thinking that, I'm like, oh wait, we release every week.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: So hopefully they're hopefully there are darlings out there that are like, ah, I can't wait for the next episode.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then on the indie side, I have friends who are literally releasing a book a month, um, sometimes two books a month, um, because they are in that now they are tending to do, I would say, closer to more like a novella length.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, the books might not be 250, 300 pages, they might be just under 200.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're coming in at like 170 or something like that.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, but they that is that's kind of the indie publishing model where it's like, no, we can if I'm writing and I'm in the flow with a series, then I'm just gonna keep producing.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Um so then for us, because I'm in all of these worlds, which I love, uh, because they're all they all have overlapping um themes, but they're all uniquely different too, which is pretty cool.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, but that means I have to be just very uh militant about my schedule and intentional about my writing time and planning.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: And then you have to come in with all of the marketing.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that that is so, and this is where it gets really complicated, right?
20:46
SPEAKER_00: When you're when you're writing um multiple series at the same time, because you we will be discussing whatever it is you're currently writing.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, but we will also have to be thinking about content for something that you wrote, you know, months before, you know, like uh yeah, or up to a year before.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: Um and and the the marketing calendar is pretty long too because it starts with like cover reveal, right?
21:17
SPEAKER_00: So that happens sometimes a year before the book's even go, you know, gonna be uh released.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: And then it is just this constant drip, drip, drip of hey, the book's coming.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: It's up for pre-order, it's up for pre-order, you know, and then and then oh, it's out, and now you have to do all the the marketing.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: So you're marketing something that was written six months to a year ago, but you're also while you're doing that, you're you're having to think about the next release that's coming, maybe within just a few months, because of the way the calendar stacks up, um, you know, with the multiple series.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Um and that it gets complicated.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, so that's okay.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Tetris territory.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, and and kind of competing with yourself to a certain degree, too, right?
22:07
SPEAKER_00: You know?
22:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: So okay.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, the other segue on this that I get asked, I think, most often when it comes to writing more than one series, is how in the world do I keep my main characters straight in my head?
22:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't think I've ever done a book talk where I haven't been asked this question.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, which I love.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Like, but I think that's so fascinating because for me, as the writer, if I think about Jewels from the Bake Shop Mysteries, or Sloan, who is my um sleuth and head brewer in my Sloan Krause mysteries that are set in Leavenworth, Washington, or if I think about Annie Murray, uh, my new secret bouquet sleuth, they are they're so different to me in my mind.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: It would be like saying, um, you know, if you have three siblings, how do you keep them straight?
23:01
SPEAKER_01: Right?
23:01
SPEAKER_01: Like that's how they feel to me.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: And none of them are twins.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: They all look very different in my mind, too.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: I think um, I think I don't know, because I've thought about I've heard readers ask that so many times at book talks um that you've been doing.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things that uh readers might not take into account is for them, Ellie Alexander writes all three of those series.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: So it's just you writing it.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: But for you, those are three completely distinct worlds that that are happening, right?
23:36
SPEAKER_00: So when you sit down to write Jules, you are just talking about it, you're in a completely different mindset than when you're sitting down to write Annie.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I can attest to that because you do immerse yourself, like all of the recipes that you're baking are very bake shop focused, versus Sloane, who does some cooking and baking in that series too, but her recipes are totally different than Jules.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Um and exactly, or like I have one of your candles here, you know, like I have a different candle, like I have a bake.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: Let me see that again.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh don't look.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: That's my fault.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: I didn't let it go long enough.
24:13
SPEAKER_01: I know.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Well we'll have to do a we'll have to do a podcast episode on proper candle usage because I'm bad at my candle tunneling.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: That is bad.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: I do not make candles that tunnel.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: So that was a user error right there.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: I just I just want to I just want to clarify that because anybody watching on YouTube would be like, oh yeah, that's tunneling.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: So I know sorry, not indicative of the quality of the candles.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: My bad, darling.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: It's my bad.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: I did not follow the instructions.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, I also think that um one thing that you don't see is how much doesn't end up on the page.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: So I have you can't see it from this perspective, but I'm working on a new series.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: So I have um I have a suspect board right here next to my desk with images and notes, and I have multiple whiteboards around.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, when I'm when I was working on developing Annie Murray and that character, I have pages and notebooks and pictures and playlists, and I know what she would wear, and I know what she's reading, and um, you know, that's just little touches of it probably come through.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, but if I put all of that into any of the books, it would be the most boring book you've ever read because it would just be pages and pages of like character nets, right?
25:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think that's another reason for me that they're so very different because they have different personalities, they have different growth arcs as well.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, they're all working on their own emotional growth, but in very unique and different ways.
25:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, they all have different interests, they have different friends, they approach the world in a unique way.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: So that's another reason that I can't even fathom getting them confused.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: But I fully understand why the darlings are like, wait a minute, how how do you write more than one at a time?
26:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, and you do, I mean, uh you do have to think about each of the series a little bit while you're writing one.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're writing the bake shop, you you in the back of your mind, and we've talked about this a lot, where you're you're still thinking about like Sloan and Annie, because you need to make sure that like characters aren't going through the exact same growth arc, you know, or they're not like Jules isn't like suddenly meeting this mysterious stranger that like makes her learn something about herself if that just happened for Sloan, you know, like two books ago, for example.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and also like I think I think the harder thing than characters even um for me are like plot lines and murder points.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, because you know, 40 books in, I've I've killed a lot of people, fictionally speaking, right?
27:02
SPEAKER_01: Um and so thinking through how those have occurred, I don't want to like um, you know, have written a jewels plot line, uh, let's say, that is gonna end up coming out at the same time, even though maybe it was written a year earlier as an annie book where it's like, oh, it was poison or, you know, like whatever the murder method even is.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that gets really tricky is all of the secondary character names, not the not the like main casts of each of the series, because same thing I do, I spend a lot of time making sure I really get to know Andy and Sterling and now Fletcher and Hal and Pre, but um the suspects and anyone who's just in the story to move the plot forward.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: I do have to go back through and go, wait, did I use Peter?
27:53
SPEAKER_01: When's the last time I used Bob as a suspect name?
27:56
SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, that kind of thing.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that gets tricky for sure.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: And that I mean, that would get tricky.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's probably tricky just in the bake, just inside the bake shop mystery series itself, because it's at 21 books now, but um, but then you add the layer of complexity of having multiple series to that.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: I can see where that would get.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: Um it just make sure you have a lot of notes.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of notes.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: Or sometimes it's frantically like flipping back to work like, uh, uh the nice thing is the publishing houses do um style guides for every book.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: And so that includes a list of every character.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and in previous books too, the bake shop style guides are huge now.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, but they're a very helpful reference tool to be like, okay, wait, it's been, you know, 10 books since I pushed somebody off a cliff or, you know, whatever it is.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: I think we're okay.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, but to your point on that, it's also if you're writing multiple series, it's very different to be developing and building a series like I am with Annie, where we're just, you know, out in the world, we'll soon have three books, but I'm five books in and a series that is gonna be at 21 books.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, because that's its own beast too.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: I need to make sure that the secondary cast are all getting growth arcs and time on the page over over the years of writing a series like the Bake Shop Mysteries.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: So many of the secondary casts have become as popular, if not more popular than Jules.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, you know, like readers always reach out, yes, you do, darlings, about like where's Lance?
29:33
SPEAKER_01: I need more Lance, or you know, whoever it is.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: Um versus, and it's easier to um sort of dip into those even secondary characters because I'm really familiar with them 21 books later.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: Whereas with Annie, I'm still building out that world.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: And um, the more you write something, the more familiar you become with it.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: And this is gonna sound a little woo-woo, but it's true.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, the more other things appear to you that I hadn't even been expecting, where it's like, oh, okay, well, I here's a new character.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: All right, let's go, let's go.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: You're tapping on my head, let's see where you're gonna take me.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: I um that actually made me think of a question.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: And um, like, do the series influence each other like for you?
30:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, so as an example, what you were just talking about with the Bait Shop mystery, 21 books in, I don't know, they're probably a dozen or more secondary characters that are now kind of like you know, first tier little letter A characters, you know, for the most part, because they've been in so many books, right?
30:39
SPEAKER_00: But so when you're writing a new series like the secret bookcase mysteries, um, is that like do do you think about that from the big shop mystery perspective?
30:49
SPEAKER_00: Do you are you writing thinking, ooh, I need to introduce, I only have like three characters right here.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: I need to introduce like another character right here that can start a growth arc because I need a larger cast.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: Does that that's such a good question?
31:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't think I consciously realized that, but that just happened in book five, where it was like, wait, this this series is growing too.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: I want to keep writing it, I'm excited about it.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And we have, you know, maybe like four secondary characters at this point, um, all of whom are getting lots of page time.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so a character worked their way in in book five.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, initially, I thought this would potentially be another toss away character.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I was thinking in the back of my head, like, oh no, this is like this is like, you know, Marty or somebody who I introduced in Bake Shop, maybe eight books in.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's interesting.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, and for the darlings out there, like uh I totally ask questions sometimes on this show that I 100% already know the answer to, but I just think they might be interesting for for the darlings to hear the answer.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: But that was not one.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: I had no idea.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: We've never talked about that, but yeah, no, that just came up.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm kind of proud of myself right now because as you should be.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: No, I hadn't thought that when you said that, I was like, yeah, but also I don't even know that I had like full awareness that that was happening until I was done with the book.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, okay, wait, I see where this is going.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: I used to, when I would go here, and you know this from um, you know, watching me.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: You you didn't usually come to some of my favorite author talks.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: I would go with a a friend um because you hadn't read the series, but I would come back and gush, and I always heard authors talk about like, oh, these characters who go off the page and they're doing all these things that they didn't script.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, come on, like that doesn't happen.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: No, you you are the writer, you're narrating this world.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: But it's so true.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you give yourself space to let those things happen, I think from a mystery, you you really do need some sketch, some little blueprint of a plan to work from.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: But then within that, giving yourself space to see where the characters take you is always fascinating.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: And in this case, you'll meet this character in book five.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Um I was like, okay, I guess I guess you're sticking around.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: Book five, which is coming out later this year.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: Book five will come out in February of 2025.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, okay.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: That is a victim at Valentine's.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's right.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: Four is, yeah, got it.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's really fulfilling to write a series.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: It's such a gift, and this is another thing that I never would have anticipated when I started that darlings would form attachments.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think you always hope that a reader will form an attachment to your main character, your sleuth, your protagonist.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I I never anticipated that I would hear about secondary characters and that they would become so treasured and beloved or loathed, like in the case of Richard Lord or Richard April.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: April April.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:06
SPEAKER_01: Um so I think that's I think that's such a fun piece of series writing that not only do you have the creative lens of getting to like, you know, plot the murder and let your sluice solve it, but you also get to bring in this whole crew of friends, allies, and maybe like a nemesis or two.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: No, that that is interesting.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes, readers have definitely come to love a lot of the secondary characters, maybe a little too much sometimes.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: I know.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: Same for my editor back in the day when I was reading.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: Carlos.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: Carlos window every time she was emailed.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: Freaking Carlos.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: I need some more Carlos.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm loving this book, but can we get just like a few more?
34:50
SPEAKER_00: I thought for a while there, I was I actually thought the Bait Shop Mysteries was the series was going to have pictures because of some of the um some of the Carlos comments that were going back and forth.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: So that's true.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: And sorry, this is a bit of a spoiler if you're new to the series.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh maybe it's not a spoiler, but I won't say what happens.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: But um there was a was it a crime of passion fruit when a whole group of readers came wearing like Carl team team team Thomas, team Carlos, yeah, yeah.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: Love it.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was fun.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: I know you gotta just separate them.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: Could have gotten ugly.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, but I think for me, I can't fathom not writing a series.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: I have written a couple standalones, and I would love, and I have actually a few standalones that are sitting in a drawer waiting, waiting to be sent out into the world.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: But um even with the standalones, it's like I thought they were just a solid standalone, and a year or two later it'll be like top, top, top, wait a minute, there could be a sequel.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, maybe series writing is just in my blood.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: We'll have to see.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think for you, and I don't know if this is true of all writers, most writers, whatever, but um I think that you put the same amount of work, like setting plays such a huge role in the series that you write, but it also did in the uh Lost Coast literary uh standalone that you wrote, and I know it will in these other standalones that you're dropping hints about that you have yet to uh finalize.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: But um but is like is that one of the reasons that that tap tap tap happens is that you put you you put so much effort into this world building that it's it's that's a place for you.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: Um and and I know a lot of your a lot of your settings, all of your settings are inspired, at the very least, inspired by real places, if if not actual real places, you know, themselves uh fully.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: So do the like how much does setting play a role in in making that happen?
37:15
SPEAKER_01: I think so much.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: And and again, that's like that's another gift if if you're a a writer listening to this podcast, like you get to create these fictional spaces or take a real space and turn it into a fictional world.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a lot of escapism that goes into the process of writing.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: And I feel these places calling me, and I want to spend more time in there.
37:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think and hope that's what darlings take away when they read the series too, that they feel like setting is another character.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: I want you to feel like you are walking through the plaza in Ashland, or that you are, you know, like netting on a Bavarian pretzel and listening to the polka band when you're in Leavenworth, or you can smell the like musty pages of the bookstore in a secret bookcase.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think I think setting plays a giant role, not only in helping to really set the series in time and space, but also to bring readers in.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: And then selfishly, when I'm writing, I'm like, where am I gonna go next?
38:20
SPEAKER_01: I've been in Costa Rica with with Andy and uh Jules for a little while.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: And um next I'm gonna go back to Redwood Grove, I think, or I'm off to Leavenworth.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Right, I'll have to see uh if I have any other work trips I can schedule in different places that we haven't been so we can reclassify them as research trips.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then when I'm working on something new, like this project uh that I have the murder board by my desk here for, um, that's an entirely new setting, and that's gonna be loosely based on um Santa Cruz, not quite Santa Cruz, but Santa Cruz adjacent.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: So we've taken a few trips over the last year there.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: And that's the other thing about like that schedule, like this book won't come out until 2026, but I have been working on it for all of 2024.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: So um gives you kind of a scope of um all of the other layers, I guess, that go into putting a full book out into the world.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, and so, but that's interesting because the the you know some readers, some writers that that hear you say that might think, oh, well, yeah, I mean you're working on the book for two years, but you you're not going to be working on the book for two years.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: Like it you're going you're gonna write it now and it comes out in 2026, but when will you like when is it done?
39:42
SPEAKER_00: When does it go to like in that case, in this this particular book's case, like when is it done?
39:48
SPEAKER_01: I'll deliver this book in early I'll deliver this book like next spring, basically.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: So like and then it'll work the publishing house will work on it for a year with me.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: So right, right.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's not so it's not like you know, when you say like in traditional publishing, like the book comes out a year or two later, like that is not you're you're not just like leisurely writing your book over the course of a year or two.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: It is set, like ready to go ready to be printed and ready to go months before the release date.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I hope that the takeaway this week from this episode, if you are a darling who is a writer, that um if you've thought that you were just writing one book, maybe you try to stay open as you're going to see if there's a second book that starts going tap, tap, tap.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you are a reader, darling readers, I would love to hear like, what is it for you about a series that keeps you coming back and wanting more?
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Um and and like when is enough enough?
41:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm always curious about that too.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can rattle off a number of my favorite series.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm currently reading the last of the Jaclyn Winspear Maisie Dobbs, and I have read every book in that series and I've been following along, and she went out on tour this year and announced this is it, she's done, which I respect.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: But I would keep reading these forever.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there are other series that I've read for a while, and at some point I'm like, okay, I'm done with.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm always I'm fascinated by that from a reading perspective.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: That stinks to know that because that was always a go-to gift.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: So if there's a new Jacqueline Windspear, I can just say all right.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: It's an auto buy.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: No.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, tell us in the comments, uh, darlings, like, what is it about series writing that like resonates with you?
41:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: All right.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, so that wraps up another episode of Reality Rights.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: Um and again, if you like it, if you like listening to Reality Rights, please share it with a friend.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: Just send it along to a reader or writer who might gain some uh gain some knowledge, have a laugh or two, and uh um just enjoy it.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: It'd be great.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: It would help us out if you share it or drop a like and uh or a comment.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh but uh thank you for listening and uh until next time.
42:25
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening until next time, darling.