Latest / Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt / CI to Eye | Why Audiences Aren't Coming Back and How to Fix It

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CI to Eye | Why Audiences Aren't Coming Back and How to Fix It · Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt

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Hello friends! Dan here. Today we're joined by an incredible guest.
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Aubrey Bergauer is a leader in arts management and advocacy,
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celebrated for her innovative,
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data-driven approach to transforming arts organizations.
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Aubrey was first on CI to Eye back in 2018 when she was making waves as the
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executive director of the California Symphony. Since then,
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she's launched her own business, Changing the Narrative,
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and recently published a game changing book for our field:
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Run It Like A Business.
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It's chock-full of tips for running successful arts organizations in the
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post-pandemic era and adapting for-profit methods for nonprofit
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goals. In this episode,
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CI President Priya Iyer Doshi sits down with Aubrey and dives into some of the
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book's key ideas that can make a big difference in our organizations.
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Aubrey shares proven strategies for building brand relevance,
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reimagining subscription models, and getting more out of our digital content.
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They also explore how evolving organizational structures can better serve our
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missions and growth.
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If you've ever felt like traditional models were holding your organization back,
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this conversation is the perfect push to try something new.
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Aubrey's insights are practical and eye opening,
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and we know they'll leave you inspired. Priya, over to you!
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Well, Aubrey, welcome back to CI to Eye.
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It's so good to have you back.
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Hi, Priya. I'm super excited to be doing this with you. Thank you.
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Yeah, we're so grateful for you being here. And for our listeners,
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your last time on the podcast was back in 2018 and your life looked
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very different back in 2018.
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You were leading the California Symphony at the time,
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and I know since you have done so, so much. You have launched your business,
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Changing the Narrative.
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You have published a book that I'm so excited to dig into with you today,
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Run It Like A Business. So it's been a few years for you, huh?
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Yeah,
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I cannot believe it's even been over five years since I've gone full time in my
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business. Longer than that since I was here on the podcast.
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When I left the California Symphony...
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everything I'm doing now is a side hustle. Everything,
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all the speaking and the consulting,
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these are now all things I've become known for.
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And I thought at the time that I couldn't keep doing both.
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I had to make a choice of what's the next chapter going to be.
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And I remember I was so stressed about it and I just knew I wanted to make an
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impact beyond one organization. And now just to share it,
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I've worked, over five years later,
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I've worked with hundreds of organizations and individuals across all types of
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artistic disciplines and budget sizes. Orchestras, operas, theaters,
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dance companies, I mean, you name it.
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And two years ago I just started changing the business model to scale,
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and that's just been a really exciting thing. And then the book this year.
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And anyway, so all to say it's been a lot. As I'm recapping, like, wow,
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five plus years, it's pretty amazing to, I dunno,
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have a moment to look back a little. Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah. I mean it's been amazing to watch.
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I've been following your journey this past five years,
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and I remember you and I met backstage at Boot Camp back in 2018.
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That was the year that we met. And since then,
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obviously we've seen each other at various conferences and things like that.
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But your journey is inspiring and it's just been incredible to watch.
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And I'm so excited to be here to talk about your book today.
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And I'll be honest, it's sitting right here. It is one that sits on my desk.
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Amazing.
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And I often grab it and it is just full of such deep,
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insightful, concrete advice for our industry.
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So I'm a huge fan.
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And I wonder if we could just start by you sharing what moved you to write this
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book? What was the point where you were like,
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"I got to write this thing," and then ultimately did that?
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Yeah,
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I was just seeing so often in our industry that we approach
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our challenges with programming. If we just program fill in the blank,
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we will bring in new audiences, younger audiences,
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diverse audiences or whatever it is.
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And kind of a thesis of the book is that the art is not the problem.
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And in fact, the art is our greatest strength.
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And so I've just been seeing it long before I was on my own,
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but for as long as I've been in this industry, which is now almost 20 years,
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which is another just crazy moment.
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Mind-blowing.
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So it's just been kind of everywhere I've been. And like I said now,
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hundreds of organizations later,
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I was just seeing this everywhere and I thought, this is not it.
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This is not solving our challenges, not addressing our problems, as we know.
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And so I thought, okay,
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it's time to put pen to paper on what else is there to address these challenges.
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That's not to say we don't need to talk about our product,
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we don't need to talk about representation in our product. I mean,
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there's all kinds of things,
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but just the idea that that alone is not going to solve these things for us was
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really the impetus.
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And so the book is really about optimizing everything else
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surrounding our art.
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So many people in organizations have asked me over the years,
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what's the playbook, Aubrey? So here we go. If you want a playbook,
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I would say this was my best attempt. Yeah.
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Yeah. I mean it was a great attempt. It is a fantastic playbook. I'm curious,
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are there specific parts of this book or specific principles that you've
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found people really latching onto?
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I know you've been traveling a ton this year doing book signings and presenting
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and all of those things, talking to tons and tons of people.
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So are there patterns emerging on parts of the book that are really resonating
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for people?
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Yeah, there's a few things coming to mind. One is people are saying,
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I feel like I can do this now.
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I feel like everything you wrote about is actionable and I feel empowered.
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I feel inspired. When I hear those things, I'm like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes,
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we can do it. You can do it." So
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I feel like that's been a real just general type of response that I've seen,
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just this idea that it gives me hope, which for me,
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just talk about personal fulfillment to feel hope in our industry,
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which can feel sometimes just heavy when the work before us is so much.
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And so for people to say,
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I feel hope that we absolutely can create the future we want for our
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arts organizations. That's been really amazing to see.
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And then I'll just add one more thing that I'm seeing,
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which I think is so important. So I want to mention it,
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which is that board members as a category of people have been reading this book
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more and more. And that's part of why I titled it this way,
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but we know if our boards don't change, nothing changes.
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And so just to see board members emerging saying, okay,
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I feel like I can govern my institution a little better now... That, I think,
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is really big. Yeah.
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That is awesome. I mean,
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I think there are so many books that sort of spin in the conceptual space and
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philosophical approach,
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and I love to hear that you are getting the feedback on how
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tangible this is and how useful it is for people to again,
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literally keep on their desk and think about action they're going to be taking
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as a result of it. That's awesome.
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Thank you. Thank you.
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Yeah, that's great. Okay, so let's dig in.
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So I know the first few chapters of the book are really focused on this idea of
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maximizing revenue and growing audiences, and that's such a clear priority,
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especially for the marketing audience that we have listening today.
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So just thinking about the way that we package as opposed to
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what we're selling itself, the art is not the problem,
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but there is some opportunity in packaging.
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And so can you talk a little bit about that opportunity that you see for arts
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and cultural institutions to really shift the way that they're packaging what
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they're selling specifically?
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Yeah, this is exactly why it's chapter one. We all want more revenue.
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We all want to grow our audiences. So right out of the gate, I was like,
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we got to talk about this. So we say we need new audiences.
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That has been our mantra for as long as I can remember in this business.
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And yet the data show,
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we are actually on the whole pretty good at getting new audiences.
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This is actually pretty good news for us.
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And where we really struggle is to retain them.
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And so when we talk about packaging,
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chapter one is really about user experience research,
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and the idea is just going to your audience or in this case,
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potential audiences. So chapter one is really about the newcomer.
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And so 10 years ago is the first time I embarked on a user experience research
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project, and we went to kind of people who should go to the orchestra,
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you self-identify as I go to live entertainment options.
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I feel like I'm generally culturally aware, I'm educated,
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all those things that we would say are probably the profile of who we serve.
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But for whatever reason, I don't go to the symphony.
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That was the first time I did it was when I was running the orchestra.
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And so it was newcomers to the symphony.
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And the important thing for user experience
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research is it is about asking how someone, a user,
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feels. And so I just want to underscore that for everybody listening. So often,
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we send out surveys on "what was your experience like?" And user experience
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research is really, it's different in that it's about how somebody feels.
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So why does this matter? Because we started learning things like,
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"When I visit your website,
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I feel overwhelmed." "When I read your program page and it's artist, conductor,
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title of piece,
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I feel confused." "I don't know what Romantic is versus Baroque." And
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so I would say that's a whole category of things when we talk about the
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opportunities before us. Okay, that's the opportunity online.
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There are so many things we can change that are copy changes.
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Raise your hand if you want free changes that make a big impact!
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Copy changes on our website! Anyways,
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there's just a whole bunch there about just the language we use and how do we
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address these feelings that people are having that are pretty hard to hear,
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but negative,
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difficult feelings about this thing we're trying to sell. And if we talked about
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online experience, then I would say also the in-person experience,
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and the feelings we were hearing there are... even,
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I was going to say, even worse than online. Harder to hear.
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It was feelings of when we talk about,
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I don't know when to applaud and we probe, but what's the feeling behind that?
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The feeling is "I feel unwelcome" or "I feel ashamed when I
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applaud at the quote wrong time and somebody shushes me." and it's like,
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oh my God, these people are coming to our institutions and they feel shame.
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And I'm like,
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no wonder why the stat I share in the book is 90% or up to 90% of first time
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attendees never come back. So again, not a new audience's problem,
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it's a retention problem. And I'm like, well, no wonder.
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I don't go to places where I feel ashamed or unwelcome either.
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Of course.
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So anyways, the good news is these feelings absolutely can be addressed.
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And that's what the rest of the chapter is about.
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What do we do to start to combat these difficult emotions and what can we do to
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make other types of emotions, positive emotions, part of their experience?
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Yeah, yeah. I mean it's all about changing the perception, right?
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I'm remembering how it felt to watch your Boot Camp presentation back in 2018
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because these facts,
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these truths about the way that people perceive our organization and whether or
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not our organization is inclusive of people like them,
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and whether or not people feel welcomed, like...
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we're still having those conversations today.
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And it hits as hard today as it did when I heard you say it back in 2018.
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And I feel like we as marketers work so hard to really think
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strategically about the way that we're communicating with our audiences because
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we care about their perception of our organization.
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And I think this type of feedback is so hard to hear,
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but so important to not deflect. It can make a real difference.
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And ultimately it's the key to people wanting to come at all,
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let alone come back. Right?
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Exactly. Yeah. Hard to hear, but so actionable actually.
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Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
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So let's shift to another piece of the book that I really enjoyed,
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which is the subscription economy or the membership economy, which --
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all of this again is about retaining audiences and how do you get people to want
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to come back? How do you get people to want to commit at certain levels?
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So in the book you talk about,
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we all know subscriptions and memberships are down in our industry,
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but outside of our industry, we know subscriptions and memberships,
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that economy is actually booming.
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So can you talk a little bit about some of those opportunities that you see for
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us to consider as inspiration for our own subscription and membership models?
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Yeah, this question as you just laid it out was plaguing me. Plaguing me.
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I was like, how is it that... We know what the graph looks like in our industry,
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right?
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Yes, we do.
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And I was like, how is that the case? And yet everywhere else,
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subscription and membership economy is thriving, booming,
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and to the tune of -- this was something I learned in my research -- 20%,
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around 20% of all credit card transactions globally go
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to the membership economy. So that's our Amazon Prime, our Netflix,
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everything else we buy on subscription. And I was like,
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20% of all of our credit card transactions. And so I was like, does not compute.
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What do we do about this? And so I started going
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deep into the research, deep into what's working elsewhere,
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everything I could learn, I just became, like I said,
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it was plaguing me and I was determined. I was like,
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I've got to figure this out. So okay,
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there's a lot of things we are doing differently.
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And so just to name a few of those things...
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So one is what I now call the first year cliff.
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So this is actually right on the heels of the conversation we were just having
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about retention. So we were talking about first time attendee retention,
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but now let's talk about first year subscriber retention and first year donor
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retention. So nationwide, it's pretty similar.
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No matter your artistic discipline,
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it's about 50% of first year subscribers don't
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renew.
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They fall off that first year cliff. And all the data show,
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once we get somebody in for a second year and definitely a third year,
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those renewal rates are way, way higher. So it's like that first year,
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and this is true, this is what I learned across any industry, any sector,
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always that first renewal period, whatever it is --
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your first month on some other program, or your first year as a subscriber --
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always that first year is the hardest,
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but it's like if we just get that number better, a little better,
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it just sets us up for so much more recurring revenue later.
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So first year cliff, and then on the donor side,
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this comes from the Association of Fundraising Professionals.
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So across all nonprofits,
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the renewal rate for first year donors and across all nonprofits is 19.
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19% first year donors. Yeah,
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I thought the subscription first year cliff was pretty bad. For donations,
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it's even crazier.
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Wow.
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Yeah. Wow is right. And so I just thought, again,
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if we just can do some things to just get those first year retention numbers up,
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it just really, it's like... Now I say it's like retention is compound interest.
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It just gets better and better and easier.
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So I would say a second thing that we do very different than pretty much
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everybody else that has a thriving successful subscription or membership
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business is how we do renewals. And so what happens every month?
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Netflix does not ask me if I want to renew my subscription.
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They do not. They do not.
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So this idea that what we do is we opt everybody
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out for them. And this is true for donations too,
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generally on the subscription and donation side,
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we wipe the slate clean at the end of every season,
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and now I can't unsee it. I'm like, oh my gosh. We literally cancel for them.
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And so I know everybody listening is like, well, what do we do?
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We have to legacy people in. And yes, yes, yes.
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There's a million ways to roll something out.
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And I'm not saying we rip off a bandaid that's going to hurt us,
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but when I started going deep on this, I was like,
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this is a key defining thing that is different. So how do we start?
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And we talk about this a lot and in my Run It Like A Business Academy.
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How do we start to move toward making the customer opt out for
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themselves? Anyways, there's a whole bunch we could talk about there too,
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but I just want to name that it's a pretty big difference between us and
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everybody else.
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And then the last thing I'll say is we are pretty bad
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at behavioral repetition,
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and that's this idea that we have to help people form a habit.
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And whether that habit is you came once and we want you to come just a second
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time before we upsell you to subscription, donation, gala,
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fill in the blank thing,
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or a habit of you just are in your first year of subscribing.
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We only want you to renew before we solicit you for this other thing or
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whatever.
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So helping people form a habit is a key factor that makes other
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subscription businesses more successful.
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And so it's like if we can just have discipline because we know there's a bigger
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prize, if we can just keep them building that habit right now. Anyways,
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so much to say on all of this, but I hope for everybody listening,
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it just gets the gears turning and there's just a lot we can do.
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And I talk about it of how do we start to address some of these things to really
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take advantage of what is now sort of standard practice across the subscription
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and membership economy, and how do we apply that to our work?
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Yeah,
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I feel like some of these changes can feel kind of radical.
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Even just the idea of something like auto renewal where instead of asking our
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audiences to opt in again, again every season,
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to just default opt them in and then they can tell us if they want to opt out.
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I think those changes can feel really radical.
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And I think you have some really interesting perspective on just the approach to
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change.
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How can we help our listeners think about a change like that that can feel
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so radically different than what we've done for so many years and kind of
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balance this idea of:
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we know that maybe a more modern flexible subscription or membership model
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might serve us better given all of this data,
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but I feel paralyzed on where to start or how to start.
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Do you have some words of wisdom maybe to help with that?
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Yeah, this is what I do all day every day, Priya.
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So often in our business,
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we tend to think we have to go from zero to a hundred.
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I don't know where this comes from, but actually I have a theory.
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I have a theory that it's like when we put on a performance,
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it essentially is perfect. That's our mission.
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We try to do the highest artistic quality possible. And on the admin side,
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we think we have to match that. When we roll something out,
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it has to be all the way perfect. And yet we forget that our artists rehearse.
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And so what this has to do with change management is change
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happens slow. Every expert, every research study,
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anything out there on change management says, don't go from zero to a hundred,
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don't do the grand sweeping program, which we tend to do.
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We roll out these big new initiatives, the festival on this,
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and it's like that's actually not what the research
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shows is effective change management.
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So this is great news for us because what the research shows is that to do
19:16
something small, do a pilot test, do something on a small scale,
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roll out the babiest of baby steps test, measure, refine,
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and then we get to do it again.
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That's called iteration and that is how change is made.
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So I'll give you an example.
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So one of the organizations in my Run It Like A Business Academy is Fort Collins
19:34
Symphony.
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And they were very interested in this question of moving toward auto renewals,
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and they were trying to figure out how do we do it? How do we get there?
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And what do we do with our long timers versus our new subscribers?
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These are two different segments we can treat very differently.
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And they were so worried about the core audience,
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this is the question I get so often, what does the core audience think?
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And so they decided their baby step was going to be
20:01
for their long time renewing subscribers -- not the new subscribers.
20:05
Anybody rolling this out for new subscribers,
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I think they shouldn't get a choice new. They don't know any other way, but --
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for long timers, they decided, okay,
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we're just going to move our renewal form to,
20:17
they made a bunch of changes to try to simplify the form.
20:20
They merged in every bit of information they can.
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Why we ask existing subscribers to fill out their address is beyond me.
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So they merged in everything they could.
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That's great. Remove the friction.
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Exactly. Remove the friction. And they said at the top,
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check this box if you want everything the same for next season.
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So it wasn't auto renewal, but it was literally one check mark and you can be
20:40
done. So for them,
20:43
that was the baby step of 'as frictionless as possible,' as you said,
20:47
and they were nervous. What are these people going to think?
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We're merging in their seat assignment and we'll just charge your card if you
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check this box. And you know what happened?
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They started getting thank you calls from their subscribers saying, amazing.
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Oh my gosh, you made this so easy for us. Thank you. Oh my gosh.
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And so they were so nervous and instead what they got was,
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"what took you so long?".
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That's incredible.
21:13
Yeah,
21:13
so I just share that story because we get so I think just
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entrenched in, "but this is what we do and how it's been done,
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and there's comfort in that and I know that." And so that's why the baby
21:26
steps I think really are helpful.
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We just push it a little bit and then what do we learn? Okay,
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it's going to be okay.
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Yeah. Yeah. And I think what an approach like that,
21:36
like a pilot and a more iterative approach gives us too is real
21:40
data to couple with the stories that we already tell ourselves about our
21:45
audiences and how they're going to feel and what they're going to do and how
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they're going to react with a pilot,
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we get the opportunity to actually see how they react and actually see how
21:55
they feel.
21:56
And I think the other thing that can happen is you hyperfocus on the loudest
22:00
voice in the room.
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So you have some people who feel friction with specific things and they're very
22:06
vocal about it and they tell you about it,
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and all of a sudden you believe that the entirety of your subscriber base
22:13
feels that specific way.
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And I think that's another beautiful thing of the idea of a beta or the idea of
22:20
a pilot, because you are wading in,
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you're making some sort of iterative shift and you get to
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stop telling yourself the story without the data.
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You actually get the data and maybe the data supports your story.
22:34
That definitely happens sometimes too,
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but also sometimes you get thank you calls where you thought people would go up
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in flames, you get something real.
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So I really appreciate that too.
22:47
It's a great pro tip for boards too,
22:49
because another category of questions I always get is how do I get my board on
22:52
board with this? And it's like, we're just going to call it a pilot test.
22:56
Nothing is etched in stone. Yeah.
22:58
Yes. It's a beta. Always changing.
23:00
Always a beta.
23:01
Yes. Yes, totally. That's a mantra at CI. Always in beta.
23:04
I love it.
23:07
Let's talk a little bit more about audiences.
23:10
And we've already mentioned a handful of times in this conversation so
23:15
far this focus on new audiences and diversifying audiences
23:20
and just such an important common goal for our industry and one that
23:24
needs as much weight as we can possibly give it.
23:27
And you had a line in your book that I really enjoyed that I'm going to quote
23:31
right now:
23:32
"Stop serving Mexican food to Mexican people." I love that line because I
23:37
think it illustrates so clearly the point you're making,
23:40
which is that is not the sole key to success and solutions for all the
23:44
things we're trying to solve right now.
23:46
Can you talk just about some other opportunities that you see
23:51
in just getting us closer to this goal of diversifying and bringing in newer
23:56
audiences to our space?
23:57
Yeah, I first, I have to give credit where credit's due. So Salvador Acevedo,
24:02
he's the managing director at Scansion,
24:04
and he has done a lot of arts research in his role.
24:07
And so he's the one who gave that line. I interview him in this chapter,
24:11
so just to give credit to him.
24:13
And we try to solve our challenges through programming.
24:16
So what does that mean on this question of specifically diversifying our
24:19
audience? It often looks like,
24:21
let's do the Dia de los Muertos concert or the Black History Month program or,
24:26
in opera, let's program Porgy and Bess again. Or something like that.
24:29
And I just want to say there's nothing wrong with those programs.
24:32
When authentically done and thoughtfully done, no problem.
24:36
And yet what we're seeing is that the same data is true.
24:40
The people who do come out for those concerts,
24:42
it's 90% of those first timers aren't coming back again. So none of the stats
24:47
are changing and they're not becoming subscribers,
24:50
and it's not certainly not changing our overall demographic composition.
24:54
So that's where I go back to,
24:56
then there's got to be a different way to achieve these goals that are so
25:00
necessary for our sector.
25:02
And what I've learned is that really what I just described is very siloed
25:06
programming.
25:07
And we tend to do this not even just with racial or ethnic demographics,
25:10
but we say, let's do the movie concerts to bring in the young people.
25:14
Let's do that. So we do this with age demographics too.
25:16
And the ideas that these siloed programming choices are, like I said,
25:20
they're not really serving the bigger goals we have. So what do we do?
25:23
The data show that a blending of cultures is really the sweet spot.
25:28
So instead of segregated programming or siloed programming,
25:31
it's blending the program. The best example in my opinion,
25:35
and this goes right back to the title of the chapter, is food.
25:38
So many of us eat all kinds of food. And to quote Salvador Acevedo again,
25:43
it's like,
25:43
"Stop serving Mexican food to Mexican people." We have multifaceted identities,
25:47
is another way to parse this out.
25:50
We're not just our gender or our ethnicity. We are also a mother,
25:55
a sister, or whatever. We have interests outside of our jobs.
25:59
We know these things about ourselves.
26:00
And so that is how people approach entertainment choices
26:05
too. I don't just go to the symphony because it's a Dia de los Muertos concert,
26:09
and we see this a lot in pop music too. I cite it in the chapter,
26:13
but the top global hits,
26:15
the last five of them were actually a blending of genres,
26:17
and there's just something there about that. So anyways,
26:21
this chapter really is just talking about embracing our full identities,
26:24
reflecting people's full identities and what we do. And when we start doing
26:29
that, basically it's not just about the titles we put on the program,
26:33
but it just is a much more holistic approach,
26:37
an approach that looks a lot more like the world around us.
26:40
And it starts informing other choices besides, like I said,
26:44
besides the program, but who are the people performing,
26:46
who is working front of house, who is on staff making these decisions?
26:51
That's a big one. That's the next chapter actually,
26:53
is talking about who's on staff making these decisions. So anyways,
26:56
all to say it just becomes not just a more reflective and authentic approach,
27:01
but the data bears out a more effective approach as well.
27:05
And I think coming to an organization and seeing a more blended
27:10
representation, like the entire experience of being at that organization,
27:15
it doesn't feel like there's solely representation on the stage,
27:18
but there is representation throughout the space that you are existing in that
27:23
feels different and goes back to the sense of welcome and belonging and
27:27
inclusion. So it's a beautiful approach,
27:30
not only across the programming piece, which is certainly a part of it,
27:33
but the entire organization.
27:35
What does blend look like across the entire organization? I really like that.
27:39
Exactly. Yeah.
27:41
Okay. So let's turn inward a little bit,
27:43
just speaking about the teams and organizational structure inside
27:48
of these organizations and actually the people.
27:51
So you said one of my favorite buzzwords lately earlier in your
27:55
response, which is silo.
27:57
And we know that silos are very present when we think about
28:02
just the clear,
28:04
strong departmental lines that exist inside of arts and
28:09
cultural institutions in the traditional sense,
28:11
and I would say most arts and cultural institutions today still follow a
28:15
traditional organizational structure. You are development, you are marketing,
28:19
you are front of house, et cetera, et cetera.
28:22
And one of the things that your book talks about is the idea of vertical
28:27
work versus horizontal work and how the
28:32
organizational structure can support one or the other just based on the way that
28:37
you set things up.
28:38
So maybe can you just start by introducing this idea of
28:43
vertical versus horizontal work?
28:44
What's the difference and what are you getting at there between those two types
28:49
of work?
28:49
Yeah, so I'll start by saying, I'll back up and zoom out just a little bit.
28:54
We have had our current organizational structure in arts and culture for
28:59
40 years, 40 plus years at this point.
29:02
And when we first came up with this model of our structure,
29:07
it made a lot of sense. It served us very well for a long period of time.
29:12
And then to our own credit, we got more complex,
29:15
we got more sophisticated in our marketing, in our fundraising, as we know,
29:19
of course, the landscape has changed quite a bit around us in 40 years.
29:22
Forget the last 40 years. Let's talk about the last five.
29:25
So where this is going is any business pretty much changes their structure
29:30
within 40 years of existing.
29:31
And so maybe the old structure just isn't quite serving us as
29:36
well as it used to.
29:37
So vertical versus horizontal work. So vertical work is what we're
29:42
all much more used to. It's kind of what we described.
29:45
The development department does this vertical, which we call fundraising.
29:48
The marketing department does this other vertical, which we call ticket sales.
29:52
And the education department does this other vertical,
29:55
which is bringing music appreciation or art appreciation to children.
29:59
For a lot of organizations, that's what the education department looks like.
30:03
And on and on and on. Finance, HR, all these other verticals. Okay.
30:06
So that's the work we are pretty accustomed to.
30:08
Horizontal work is work that affects all of us.
30:13
And so in the book, I contend that, for example,
30:18
when we talk about community engagement or being relevant to our community,
30:22
some of the conversation we were just having, we literally call sometimes our
30:27
education department "community engagement." And I'm like,
30:29
this is not the job of one team or department.
30:32
If we're talking about what we were just saying,
30:34
like who's making these decisions and how are we reflective of our communities
30:39
that we want to serve? That's horizontal work.
30:41
It is all of our jobs across the institution to contribute to these kinds of
30:45
goals. So that's just an example.
30:48
And thinking about it that way I would say in some ways is harder.
30:52
It's not just point a finger to that person's job or that department's job.
30:56
It takes building some institutional muscle to figure out, okay,
31:00
well if there's a goal that really does touch all of us,
31:04
what does that look like and how do we define that?
31:06
And there's of course work involved in that,
31:08
but it gets easier on the other side of that work. I will say,
31:11
once you kind of do that, then you're like, okay,
31:13
it is clear how everybody's contributing to fill in the blank.
31:17
So that's horizontal versus vertical work.
31:20
Yeah,
31:22
I think I was saying earlier when we were talking about the membership and
31:26
subscription economy,
31:27
I think that can feel like a radical change to move
31:32
from this more siloed,
31:34
clear department style work to more of the horizontal work where we
31:39
have shared goals and we're all sort of contributing to that.
31:42
Do you have organizations that you've worked with who are taking
31:47
this approach that maybe you can offer to our listeners as some inspiration?
31:52
I'll share about the American Shakespeare Center.
31:56
So they joined my Run It Like A Business Academy, and they said,
32:00
we are all in on this idea of patron retention.
32:03
And in the chapter I talk about desiloing marketing versus development and what
32:08
part of that is horizontal work and what part of that is vertical work that just
32:11
needs to be better integrated. But they came and they said, okay,
32:13
this is what we want to do.
32:16
So total shout out to their executive director, Vanessa Morosco,
32:21
and Stephanie Cabacoy, who -- originally Stephanie was head of development,
32:25
that is how she was hired into the organization.
32:28
Then they came to me and they said,
32:30
we want to convert that role to basically head of patron loyalty
32:35
and combine those marketing and development functions.
32:39
So the tactical parts actually weren't the difficult parts of how
32:45
do we figure out reporting structure and dah dah dah.
32:47
That actually was not the most difficult thing.
32:49
Instead it was how do we get our board on board?
32:52
And so here we go right back to change management.
32:56
I think it's important to say that from what I learned from my vantage point,
33:00
this was not a super forward-thinking board. And I say that not to throw shade,
33:04
but to say I think they were normal. I think they were a normal board.
33:08
And so sometimes people, I tell these stories and everybody's like, wow,
33:12
that Fort Collins Symphony board must have been forward-thinking.
33:14
That American Shakespeare Center board must have been really forward-thinking.
33:17
And total credit to the leaders on the board who helped adopt these strategies.
33:22
But anyways, from where I sit, I think they were normal boards,
33:25
which means your board can do it too, is where I'm going with this.
33:28
So they faced all the same pushback as so many of us is the point.
33:31
So they had several conversations with the board over time,
33:35
and we really had to elicit: what's the fear? Because it wasn't fear of change.
33:40
It was like... it turned out as they probed,
33:43
some of the board members were worried they might not have as high touch
33:47
relationships with the staff. And it was like, where is that coming from?
33:50
We said nothing about not having high touch relationships with our major donors
33:54
and board members. And so it was like, okay,
33:56
let's parse this out and help them realize nobody's going anywhere.
34:00
We love you board members. And so that was kind of interesting.
34:05
And then basically they had this big board meeting where it was kind of like the
34:08
crossroads moment, like, okay, we've talked about this for months.
34:10
Are you guys going to approve the title change in structure or not?
34:14
Let's decide here. So Stephanie and Vanessa prepared quite a bit,
34:17
and I remember Stephanie excitedly messaged me afterwards and she said,
34:22
not only did they get their board completely on the same page culminating in
34:25
this big board meeting or retreat or whatever it was, and they said on the spot,
34:30
she was like,
34:31
I raised $50,000 from board member contributions wanting to support this work.
34:37
She was so, of course, who wouldn't be so excited?
34:39
Some of us have had those moments where you're like, yes, we did it.
34:42
We really galvanized everybody.
34:44
We got everybody facing the same way marching forward.
34:47
And so this season right now that we're in, they're doing it.
34:51
They're bringing those revenue generating functions together and in a way that
34:55
they complement each other, marketing and development,
34:57
not compete for dollars from the same household.
35:00
And so that's what they're doing right now.
35:03
That is awesome. That message is amazing.
35:06
Awesome. Yeah.
35:07
That's really awesome. Wow. Well,
35:10
let's zoom back out here as we come to sort of the end
35:15
of our conversation. I just want to zoom out.
35:18
Obviously we've talked about many different tactics in the book today,
35:22
and there are many, many more. Again listeners, if you have not yet,
35:25
I highly recommend you get it on Amazon or at your local bookstore,
35:29
wherever you can get it.
35:31
But I think a lot of this comes to the idea of change
35:35
management and change itself can feel just incredibly
35:40
difficult, incredibly overwhelming.
35:42
I think the story you just told is inspiring,
35:44
but I'm wondering if perhaps you can offer some words of wisdom on just how
35:49
organizations generally can consider approaching change.
35:53
Where can they start when they get overwhelmed?
35:55
Thinking about all of the stakeholders that they need to get involved and on
35:59
board and aligned, or how quickly they want to move or need to move,
36:03
where can they start?
36:05
How can they sort of calm and ground themselves as they embark on
36:09
this journey?
36:11
I think it's "start small." I mean, when we feel overwhelmed, that's part of it.
36:16
It just feels like the point B feels so far away or so
36:20
high or something that that's usually where the emotion of overwhelm comes from.
36:24
So instead it's like, break it down. What's the smallest,
36:27
smallest baby of a step? So it goes back to that. What is the pilot test?
36:31
How can we do this on a very small scale and just see how the cards fall?
36:36
I just can't stress that enough because this is something I see all the time.
36:40
I was joking that every day, this is what I do, but it's kind of true.
36:42
And so we just have to build... maybe an appetite for testing, is a word for it.
36:47
This is totally Capacity Interactive language, I think, but let's test it.
36:52
But I, I mean, I said this earlier,
36:54
we know what the graph looks like. We know what the graph looks like if we don't
36:57
change. And so that should be our impetus to be curious,
37:01
to want to try some new things, but try them on a smaller scale,
37:04
not swinging for the fences. I think that's just the key, and such good news.
37:08
And I have -- for anybody who wants more on change management,
37:11
I have a whole article on my blog about this where I really go deep into more
37:15
about what the research shows and how do we get others to buy into that future
37:19
that we want,
37:20
that picture and vision we want to paint that we're advocating for.
37:23
So I think that's all really important.
37:25
And then I'll just give one more tip here, which is:
37:29
don't try to do everything all at once.
37:31
There's a book of 10 chapters of different strategies,
37:34
and I give this advice a lot, which is no, no, no, just pick one, maybe two.
37:39
And even within each of those chapters, it's like,
37:41
we're only going to work on our website for the next season or whatever.
37:45
And it's like, if that's the only thing you do, that's okay,
37:48
and be proud of that and carve those boundaries for yourself as an institution
37:52
so that -- We get the shiny object syndrome. Oh, you should try this. Oh,
37:55
we should do that. Oh, we should do that. And it's like,
37:57
that's not what I'm advocating for.
37:58
And so some combination of pick a lane or two,
38:04
or pillar, and just say, this is going to be the focus for now.
38:07
And then when we get really good at that thing,
38:10
then we will add on something else. That's how change happens.
38:13
Yeah, yeah. What you were saying about the data,
38:17
we know if we continue the way that we're going,
38:20
we know what the picture will be. And it reminds me of that quote,
38:23
"The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a
38:27
different outcome." Something like that.
38:30
But it reminds me of that we all know the things that we want to change inside
38:34
of our industry today,
38:36
and we know that the actions of today are what have yielded the
38:41
results of today.
38:42
So what will the actions of tomorrow be that yields different results?
38:47
Because the same actions of today can't necessarily yield different results for
38:51
tomorrow.
38:52
That's right. If we want different results, we have to do something differently.
38:55
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and I think that's incredibly inspiring. I'm curious,
39:00
I think when you think about change or impact in an organization,
39:04
oftentimes it can feel like, okay, if I'm a senior leader,
39:09
I have the power to make the change and I can make the impact.
39:13
So what advice -- One, I don't believe that that's actually true,
39:17
but I think it's easy to believe that that is the truth.
39:20
But what advice might you offer somebody in maybe a more
39:25
junior arts and cultural institution role who
39:30
hears your words, they want to make an impact,
39:32
but they feel held back by existing structures or traditions
39:37
or preconceived notions of what their actions can or can't do in
39:41
terms of making impact inside of the organization.
39:44
What sort of advice might you offer them?
39:47
There's a lot to say on this. I think the quick version would be,
39:51
no matter your role in the institution, definitely arm yourself with the data.
39:55
That was a game changer for me. I remember being early in my career,
39:58
and at the time, this is so dating myself, but it was like,
40:01
we need to start social media channels. We need to have digital ads at the time.
40:06
Let's have a mobile friendly website. At the time,
40:08
it was like those things weren't happening,
40:10
and I was the kid in the office not getting --
40:14
being dismissed for those ideas until I started equipping myself with the data
40:18
and like, oh, could,
40:20
can you guys just give me a hundred dollars to run some digital ads and I will
40:23
report back? Fast forward.
40:24
I ended up having to report at every board meeting going forward because they
40:28
realized, oh, this is making a difference. But really,
40:32
maybe these examples sound silly,
40:33
but the idea of going from "this is what my gut tells me"...
40:36
Trust your instincts, of course, but how do you validate that?
40:40
And that goes right back to everything we said on run the pilot test and
40:43
everything. So no matter where you are in the institution,
40:46
even if you're more junior, get good at the CRM.
40:48
That was incredibly helpful to me early on where I could say,
40:51
this is what our data is showing. I think it's just,
40:54
don't make it about your own opinion. Come armed and equipped.
40:57
And that has made a big difference for me.
40:59
Yeah.
41:00
Yeah.
41:01
You can't reject the data. The data is the data.
41:03
Data is the data.
41:05
The data is the data. What's next for you?
41:08
Do you have any projects that you're working on or research that you're excited
41:12
about?
41:13
I know you just have been all over presenting on this book and signing books.
41:18
What's happening next? What's your mind on next?
41:21
What's next? Oh gosh.
41:22
I think in some ways it's to celebrate this year.
41:26
I think this year has been really, it's been a good year.
41:29
Not every year do I come out saying that.
41:31
So I feel like just really celebrating that and enjoying that.
41:34
But I think for me now it's starting to think about that. To your question,
41:38
what is the next thing? And I'm trying to find a way --
41:42
I'm super happy with how the business is going. Continue that.
41:44
We've done a lot on scale. How do we support more organizations, all of that.
41:48
And then starting just to figure out,
41:52
the more I remove myself from the day to day of the business,
41:56
then that frees me. And so just really, I don't have an answer,
41:59
but just really trying to figure out what does that look like next?
42:04
I wish I had the whole plan. I don't know. That's where my mind is right now.
42:08
It wouldn't be fun if you had the whole plan today. So I mean,
42:11
we're excited to continue to follow along.
42:14
And if people do want to follow along and want to learn more about you,
42:18
where can they find you? Quick plug.
42:21
Yeah, thank you for that. My website is AubreyBergauer.com.
42:25
I've got some free downloads for anybody hearing all of this.
42:27
So if you go to aubreybergauer.com/book, you can get,
42:31
they're called book bonuses, but basically if you buy the book,
42:34
you enter your order number,
42:35
and even if you already have it and you want these bonuses,
42:37
no matter when you ordered, you can still get them.
42:39
But it includes the research roundup. What happened is everybody was like,
42:43
Aubrey, you talk about so much data in your book,
42:46
and even just now in this podcast we've talked about so much,
42:49
how do I get the CliffNotes version? That's the download.
42:52
It's like all the top data points and their sources,
42:55
and it's all clickable if you need that data to go to the next board meeting or
42:58
whatever. So that's all there. That's a free resource.
43:02
Lots of articles that I've mentioned as well. So that's all there.
43:05
AubreyBergaeur.com.
43:07
Awesome. And finally, we've come to our CI to Eye moment.
43:11
So this is our final question of today's interview.
43:15
If you could broadcast one message to executive directors, leadership teams,
43:19
staff, and boards of thousands of arts organizations,
43:23
what would that message be?
43:27
I would say one more time: The product is not the problem.
43:29
We should be so proud of that. Our product, our artistic product,
43:33
is our greatest strength, and we have that in our corner.
43:38
So many organizations and industries want a strong product, but we have it.
43:41
And we've worked literally hundreds of years to get to that point,
43:45
and we should be so proud of that.
43:46
So the work before us then is to optimize those
43:51
things surrounding that excellent product. And when we start doing that,
43:56
I feel like it blows the doors wide open for us.
44:00
Beautifully said, we have a beautiful product. It's so important,
44:03
especially right now. Beautiful note to end on. Thank you so much, Aubrey,
44:08
for being here. Thank you for chatting with me today,
44:11
and we'll see you next time on the pod, I hope.
44:13
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
44:25
Hi, everyone. Dan here, back with more CI-lebrity Sightings.
44:29
Here are a few of our favorite stories about CI clients in the news. First up,
44:33
the Washington Post ranked the 20 best art museums in America based on their
44:38
collections, exhibitions, and history of public engagement.
44:41
Those heavy hitters included the Whitney and the Museum of Fine Arts Houston.
44:46
The Post also ranked their favorite smaller museums,
44:49
and we were excited to see our friends The Barnes Foundation, The Clark,
44:53
and The Phillips Collection on the list. Speaking of rankings,
44:56
New England Conservatory was named one of the top 100 women-led businesses in
45:00
Massachusetts according to the Boston Globe. Way to go NEC!
45:04
And on the opposite side of the country,
45:06
the city of Portland just announced over $4 million in general operating grants
45:11
for arts and culture organizations. Recipients include Portland Center Stage,
45:16
Oregon Ballet Theater, and Portland Opera. Fantastic news!
45:20
If you're looking for a thought provoking read,
45:22
check out The Guardian's article, "Small Step or Giant Leap:
45:26
What AI Means for the Dance World" featuring insights from San Francisco
45:30
Ballet's artistic director Tamara Rojo. And finally,
45:34
if you haven't checked out #MuseumTok recently,
45:37
Art Net reported on the growing trend of museums having Gen Z interns script
45:41
their social media content.
45:43
They included a roundup of their favorite takes on the trend,
45:46
and we agree that the London Philharmonic's video ate and left no crumbs.
45:50
Pop off, queens. Got a story that deserves a shout out? Well,
45:54
tag us on social and let us know.
46:07
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
46:09
This episode was edited and produced by Karen McConarty and co-written by Karen
46:13
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
46:16
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CI to Eye's designers and video editors,
46:20
and all work together to create CI's digital content.
46:23
Our music is by whoisuzo. If you enjoyed today's episode,
46:28
please take a moment to rate us or leave a review.
46:31
A nice comment goes a long way in helping other people discover CI to Eye and
46:35
hear from experts in the arts and beyond. If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
46:39
pass it on to all of your enemies. Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
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Until next time, stay nerdy.