Latest / Think Twice Show / The Morality of Storytelling ft Precious Mustapha

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The Morality of Storytelling ft Precious Mustapha · Think Twice Show

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If he went to the source or Gotham's problems and fixed it,
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he wouldn't have no criminals to beat up.
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Batman's redundant at that point.
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You're looking at me in some type of way that my mum, yeah.
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Mainstream blockbustery films. The majority of people who are
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in those spaces are, like white execs, privileged.
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OK, welcome to Think Twice. This is a philosophy show
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basically, where we discuss various different topics and we
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try and find out where we sit on all these topics.
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Today we happen to be discussing storytelling.
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Previous episodes we would have discussed anarchism, we would
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have discussed epicureanism, we would have discussed isms,
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basically. But today we're doing
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storytelling. And you're wondering why are we
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doing storytelling? It's because humans love
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stories. It's it's the way humans make
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sense of the world. It's the way they connect
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emotionally to one another and share knowledge.
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Like in evolutionary terms, stories that help people
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survive. They were the way people could
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tell people about social norms. It's the way people could tell
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people about dangers, about values.
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So that's why stories are really important.
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And today with us, we have the superstar that if you ever watch
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Netflix, you've probably seen that that let me not even talk
1:29
about that, you know, big time on Netflix.
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All of that's good stuff from East London.
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And if you've ever watched Ted Lassow, you've ever seen that
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too. We have Precious Mustafa with us
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today. Thank you for joining.
1:41
Us welcome to the show. Thanks.
1:42
For having me. Did you like that one?
1:44
Yeah. Did that cool you down a little
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bit because. You've got that awkward smile.
1:48
You know, I'm just awkward. So on our first question we're
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going to ask is the role of large budget films to impact
1:57
Society 10. What do you think?
1:59
Yes, absolutely. My answer to this is actually
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whether a film producer like it or not, I feel like it impacts
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society. Like films, especially big
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budget films, definitely impacts society because they tell
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stories. And like you said in
2:14
Introduction, stories are super important for people to identify
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their like cultural norms, to see themselves reflected back on
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screen, and to develop their own culture in the context in which
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they live. So I think films are super
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important. What do you?
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Think. Of course we can say.
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Yeah, no, I agree. I I definitely do think they
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impact society. I think big or small budget.
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But do you think the role of them is to impact society?
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Definitely, because I feel like if we look at films now, a lot
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of our mainstream blockbustery films, the majority of people
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who are in those spaces are like white execs, privileged.
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And consciously or subconsciously, that's what they
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want us to see. Do you know what I mean?
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They want to see themselves. So that's all we're really
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getting 100. Percent.
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And it, it shapes like societal norms, right?
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Yeah, you know you're making a face, but what's the matter?
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Is that in the intro you gave away the answer?
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Well, that's a good point she made.
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Right. It's the grimace, like sort of
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might be conflicting with my father.
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That's a good point. That's a good point because I, I
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basically said if I was to give one answer, is the role of large
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budget films that impact society, I'd say no.
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But like financially impacted, I say yes.
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Culturally, yes, but like ideologically and politically
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answers no for me. I feel the role of large budget
3:55
films, like $200 million films, I meant to sort of actually
4:00
mirror society as it is, as they say, it's not meant to actually
4:04
try and change or shift society in any sort of way.
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Like just because I, I actually think that's the role of like
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smaller budget films, if I'm honest, to be a little bit more
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risky, to be a little bit more nuanced.
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Whilst like actual big budget films, I, I, I don't think it's
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their role. Like they're supposed to be
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universal. The storytelling is supposed to,
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it's supposed to bring in a lot of people.
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Yeah, that's, that's how I see that those massive, you're
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looking at me in some type of way that my mom gets to me.
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I said, Oh my God, what I just said.
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And, and the reason why I sort of say this is because like, if
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you look at things like Snow White, for example, like the
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recent Snow White, like Rachel's Edgar Snow White, when people
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are putting millions and millions of pounds into this
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film, like they just want some sort of escapism from reality
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about some southern magical people and this white lady about
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the story that we all heard as children.
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That's what they want. Like that's all that's what they
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want to see. And the, the film doesn't
5:09
actually have the impact you want when Rachel Zeigler, for
5:13
example, post what she post about Donald Trump or you hire
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Rachel Zeigler to, to sort of do that role and the controversies
5:22
around that film. The film doesn't then have the
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mass appeal we're supposed to have in the in the 1st place.
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And I and I think if you really want your point to be to come
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through and come through well, just do it on a smaller budget
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film with less moving parts. But then.
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That's an argument. Did you get around to me at all?
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No. I can hear what you're.
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Saying but. What about like films like
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Conclave where, you know, like the Pope has died now and
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apparently like popes, they're not the Cardinals, but the
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Cardinals. They've been watching,
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apparently watching Conclave to I guess learn some things from
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that. Film it.
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Would have, at least subconsciously.
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Yeah, right. You know, and like we've learnt
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stuff from watching that. So I don't know how it wouldn't
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impact society. I'm not.
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Arguing that it doesn't or it does impact society, like even
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the Snow White film, it impacts it.
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It, it creates discussion. Like just because they're large
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films, right? But I'm saying it's the role of
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them to do that. But do you mean like to impact
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like in in what way like financially?
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Financially, like I feel they have to recoup that.
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They have to like, it's just so much money that you're trying to
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get this money back, right? And cultural presence, just
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because it's a large film, like it's culturally going to be
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discussed like through memes and fashion and maybe fan bases, but
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like, should it push a particular ideological thought
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or a political thought through the movie?
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And that's where I'm like, I don't think it should have that
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impact. The other.
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Impacts that you think that it shouldn't, not that it doesn't.
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Precisely. The other impacts aren't really
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like by design of the film. Do you get what I mean there?
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By design of the fact that you have something so big that it
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reaches so many people, regardless of whether you like
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it or not, the thing that you're actually in control of.
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So when we discuss role, the thing that you're actually in
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control of is the themes you put in the film.
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And those themes are like ideological or political and I
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don't think they should be too contentious in like large budget
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films. I hear it, but like film
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producers don't. They have an idea of the tone of
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the media that are crying. They have an idea, like a a
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bigger picture idea, about what this film is trying to say and
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where this film might fit into the cultural context.
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Yeah, But I feel like the distinction is you're not trying
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to change society as you understand it.
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You're just trying to mirror what you see.
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Do you get what I mean? Like, I think that's the big
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distinction between. I hear that, but.
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I think what you're suggesting is by just mirroring society,
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that that is an apolitical act. Yeah.
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But it isn't. It is political because you are
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reaffirming the status quo if that's what you.
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Choose to do. That's why I made that face when
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precious, I made that. Because you are reaffirming the
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status quo. Like if you create a big budget
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film and all the people, all the love interests are all white and
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they're. All beautiful you're you're.
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Saying something about, yeah, that that might be what's
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happening in a particular city in America or whatever, But by
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mirroring that reality back on screen, you are reaffirming that
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white is the beauty standard. You know that is an acceptable
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state of affairs. I, I, I accept that argument and
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it's a fair argument, but what I would then say is that is the
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reason why you need like a diverse group making the film.
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And if you have a diverse group sort of making this film, you'll
9:01
get the mirror of society that is as accurate as possible.
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That's basically what I'm suggesting.
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I agree that representation on in film production is is super
9:13
important, but I still have contention with the mirroring
9:16
society as it is. If you believe society isn't
9:19
right, well, there isn't justice in society as it as it as it
9:23
stands right now. Mirroring it is a political
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action is a political choice and you're reaffirming status quo.
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I still think that you see like how like.
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If. You make like a police drama.
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I think we're talking about Line of Duty earlier.
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And you? Portray like the.
9:41
Lives of police officers and like they are just and they're
9:44
trying to do the right thing. You're saying something about
9:48
the police force. It's not an apolitical message.
9:50
Like you might be reflecting what is literally happening
9:53
right now in a certain branch of the Met.
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And there are good people trying to do stuff in a certain branch.
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But by choosing to represent that on film, you are portraying
10:03
the police in a certain light that doesn't critique the
10:07
systemic injustice of the. Police and I, I think there's
10:10
like a place for these things. Yeah, I'm not.
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I'm not saying we don't do that like.
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We just, I'm just saying it's not.
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On a budget, not on a 250 million dollar budget film.
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But that's all I'm saying. Like that it should be on that
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like an on a bigger scale because you want that.
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Message to go to more people. You know, maybe it should be in
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something like The Avengers because you've got more people,
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I feel. Like I feel like it's like a
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fair argument about you guys are making.
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Like I'm not like fully against it, but I just think that I
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think what you guys are saying is ideologically ideal.
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So like perfect case scenario, I make this film loads of people.
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Go see it anyway, people. Watch nowhere, you know, like
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people actually watch it. It didn't have the mass appeal
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because of these problems. Do you get what I mean?
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Like whilst the smaller budget films that then just do it right
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like get out for example. Like everyone think out like the
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smaller budget films that just do it correctly then get mass
11:11
appeal eventually I. I have I have problems with get
11:15
out though I. Feel like you want to discuss
11:18
this? Yeah, I don't want to derail
11:20
this. That's what you're about to do.
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You're about to. Let me play my role.
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I think I think Get Out is a great film, but I think first of
11:31
all, Get Out is for is pointed towards white audiences because
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all the micro aggressions that Danica Lewis character goes
11:39
through. It's like we understand that as
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black people, we already get that, like we don't need to.
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We're not learning anything by by seeing that.
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But I think the reason I had mass appeal is because it said
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something and talked to white people.
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White people were like, oh, like my progression that let's let's
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learn about that. I don't want to be them And
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that's why it had that mass appeal.
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My argument is that that's why it was a success.
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It didn't necessarily like critique systems of racism.
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It just looked at interpersonal racism.
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And like, I don't think that moved the needle.
12:15
I feel like it moved the needle culturally.
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Yeah. And you can't try and fix every
12:20
problem all at once. That's, that is a problem,
12:24
right? Like that, that was an issue
12:26
that was affected and sorted by that film or like, not sorted,
12:30
but like addressed by the film. So I I I don't think it's, but I
12:34
don't. I don't think interpersonal
12:36
racism is our problem. Like that's not.
12:39
It is a. Problem though it's a problem,
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but I don't think it's worth like trying to fix that.
12:45
But you, you do realise like interpersonal, this is not what
12:48
I want to do in this episode. But you do realise that
12:50
interpersonal racism is what then translates to systemic
12:55
racism? It's all way round you.
12:58
Think it's the all way round. Absolutely.
13:00
I think systemic racism the the framework of white supremacy is
13:06
what normalises interpersonal. That's for another episode.
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But we don't need to send that. That's the question too.
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Oh, heroes. Just villains with better PR.
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100%. Right, I need I don't understand
13:25
this question. Oh heroes, just villains with
13:28
better PR. Give me an example of a hero.
13:32
Batman Batman's a villain. He's the biggest villain deeper.
13:40
Batman's a billionaire. He can sort out a Gotham, he can
13:44
build schools, he can build hospitals.
13:46
Yeah, but can one man do all of that?
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He's a billionaire, you know, He's got bread.
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Instead, he puts on a costume. Yeah, and goes and beats up
13:57
petty criminals deeper. But are they?
14:00
What's he doing? It's petty like.
14:02
The he's involved with the mob. No, he's trying to take down
14:05
mobs. And yeah, yeah.
14:06
But a lot of the time, like, he just beats up like people who
14:08
are doing like petty theft and like.
14:10
That is a big part of his. Yeah.
14:12
Like he. Usually the film starts with him
14:15
doing the small stuff, then he moves to the mob and like the
14:17
Joker and like stuff like that. So would you say him and the
14:20
Joker are equal? They're equally as bad as each
14:23
other. Did you watch Heath?
14:25
Heath Legend? Yeah, like, I'm not saying I'm
14:28
Batman on that one. Interesting.
14:34
Oh, how would you judge Batman for example?
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I think Batman is like the first one that comes to mind when I
14:40
hear that question. I thought about Iron Man as
14:42
well. Oh, Tony Stark.
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Yeah. How do you feel about these
14:45
characters? I mean, OK, let's say he built a
14:50
school, right? Sure.
14:52
You have to then hire people who were going to nurture that
14:56
institution. Nurture those people.
14:58
Nurture those kids. His pockets are long.
15:00
Like he could do it. But is he in charge of all of
15:03
that? I think he's got the resources
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for like to to impact social change for sure.
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And I think his application of his time and resources is crazy.
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It's insane. It's actually deeper.
15:14
Think about it if Batman actually solved crime right by
15:18
looking at the root causes of crime.
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I know I'm like over intellectualising Batman a bit
15:22
here, but like if he went to the source of like Gotham's problems
15:26
and fixed it, he wouldn't have no criminals to beat up.
15:30
Batman's redundant at that point if you really deepen.
15:35
So he's actually invested in the state of affairs.
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OK. And if you actually like look at
15:41
the Joker, the Joker's like big point is that these people don't
15:47
look after us. Society is unfair.
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Society is unfair and I just want to cause chaos as a result
15:52
of that like. The Joker's work.
15:57
He is not woke. He is extreme.
15:59
The Joker is extreme. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:02
Because he doesn't care, yeah. But he's allowed to.
16:05
The injustice of society for sure.
16:07
Do you know what I feel like? Maybe a a better example would
16:12
be like Killmonger and Black Panther.
16:16
Yeah, OK. Yeah.
16:17
Because Killmonger I wouldn't say is a villain.
16:20
He's just misunderstood. Yeah, but also his arguments are
16:26
valid. Remind me like I watched for a
16:28
long time ago, Like what's his general?
16:30
Point. His, his thing was like giving
16:32
back to like, like you guys are here in Wakanda and thriving,
16:38
but like you're not giving back to the people, right?
16:41
Because he says something like ain't all people your people?
16:44
Right. Whereas I think with Black
16:47
Panther, his thing is like, no, I'm, I'm the king of Wakanda.
16:50
So that's, that's all I care about.
16:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I think they're quite
16:55
interesting them too, because I do think Black Panther in that
16:58
sense is a villain with really good PR.
17:02
Yeah, he's what, a little bit like Ilias, the bit classes,
17:05
yeah. To a degree.
17:07
Yeah, I'd agree. With that, I just thought about
17:08
Herman talking about Herman. Well, like, he basically created
17:13
something that nearly ended the world, but we sort of follow his
17:19
story. And the moment we follow
17:21
someone's story, we sort of connect with them as people.
17:24
And the moment we connect with them as people, even when they
17:26
do things wrong, we're like, we we can understand why.
17:28
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can understand why they've
17:30
made this decision. Right.
17:32
And they always explain like a precisely you can justification.
17:35
But and so essentially like Iron Man, Tony Stark, when they've
17:39
created this tech, like from if you're on the other side of this
17:43
and you know nothing about, you feel like this man is just
17:45
ruining this world. Like, yeah, it's all his fault.
17:47
And in someone else's story, he's completely the villain.
17:50
But obviously we follow Tony Stark's story, so we see why
17:54
it's happened. Yeah.
17:55
And I just see it's it's all about narrative frame it
17:59
basically like how. Do you feel about him?
18:00
Do you think he's a villain? I.
18:02
Think he's a villain? Yeah, definitely.
18:04
Yeah. I think a lot, a lot of them
18:07
are, to be honest. I think there's a lot of people,
18:10
there's a lot of groups, there's a lot of people that get very,
18:12
very good PR. Land of Duty is a good, good,
18:16
good one. Yeah.
18:19
Like anything that has a fed as a protagonist, forget about it.
18:24
Forget. About it.
18:24
It's good PR. It's great PR and there's a
18:29
cynic in me that's like, you know, the police, I think
18:31
they're quite happy with these, this sort of media.
18:34
Maybe they're funding it. But wait, isn't minor duty
18:44
trying to? Isn't it about them trying to
18:46
find some like? Corruption in the police, yeah.
18:49
But then again, like you're basically saying the police can
18:52
police themselves, which we all know they can't.
18:55
Like ACAC 15, like the the department is supposed to reveal
18:59
corruption. They're kind of villainize the
19:00
whole show. They're kind of like the people
19:03
that are getting in the way of the real police that are trying
19:05
to do the the real detective work.
19:08
Yeah. That's the tone of the show.
19:09
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is.
19:10
Yeah. And then like the guy who's the
19:12
head of the corruption department, he's a bit sussed
19:15
towards the end of all. They kind of villainize him.
19:17
Like he's doing the madness. Yeah.
19:20
If you remember, yeah, yeah, the feds are getting great PR.
19:23
Like top tip here. Like Luther.
19:25
Luther's cool. Like, he's sexy.
19:28
He's suave. And he's black.
19:30
Do you know what I mean? He's a black fan.
19:37
There's a reason for that. Yeah, it's crazy, man.
19:40
It's crazy. But on to our final segment, I
19:46
actually. Really enjoyed this segment
19:47
because. Usually we sort of make these
19:49
things up and like, this couldn't ever be our lives, but
19:53
this could be yours. So let me start.
19:57
You just landed a role in a major production.
19:59
It's a breakthrough opportunity, but the character you're being
20:02
cast as is a stereotype you've always struggled with.
20:05
You've been told by your agent and your director that this is
20:08
your big break and turning it down could ruin your chances for
20:11
future roles. However, you've always felt
20:14
uneasy about the way the character is portrayed.
20:16
It's shallow, 1 dimensional depiction of people from your
20:20
background. Do you take it?
20:23
No, no. No.
20:25
No chance. I love that.
20:26
No, I love. That standard business, I agree.
20:29
I I won't. Yeah, I, I do wonder, and maybe
20:33
you can help me with this. Like in a situation like this,
20:35
it's your big break, you know, But like, let's say it's a big
20:40
production company, to what extent do you have like, control
20:43
over how your characters actually acted and played?
20:47
Do you have any like I think creative licence?
20:51
It depends. I think if you've got like
20:52
leverage because you've, let's say, come from like a, a massive
20:56
job or something and you're like top billing, you're like #1 then
21:01
yeah, maybe there is leeway. But a lot of the time I think
21:04
these big studio production companies like they are the, is
21:11
this, they're saying it doesn't matter what you think because
21:16
they're trying to sell something and that's all that matters.
21:20
But I think why I would say no is because I don't think it
21:23
would be creatively fulfilling for me as an actor to do a role
21:29
that I don't think serves me, you know?
21:35
And I think that's also, I don't judge people who do because, you
21:40
know. Money talks.
21:41
Yeah, you got you got to make money, I guess.
21:44
But personally, I think yeah, there's just no way.
21:48
Like there are certain roles, like a lot of like the slavery
21:51
stuff. I think there's even nuance in
21:55
that conversation because for example, like I watched Sinners
21:59
recently, that's set in like the Jim Crow era, but the
22:05
conversation's nuanced. The story is very obviously it's
22:07
about vampires, whatever. But the story is, is quite like,
22:12
I don't think we've been depicted that way before.
22:14
Yeah. So that's interesting.
22:16
I would say yes to that. As opposed to like a like a 12
22:19
years, 12 years. What's it called?
22:22
12 years basically, right? Yeah, I wouldn't, I don't think
22:26
I would say yes to that because I don't think it it's showing us
22:29
in a way that it's, it's not showing us in a way that's like
22:33
positive. It's almost like.
22:35
It's just pain porn. Yeah.
22:37
It's just like black suffering. Yeah, it's also like so tired.
22:40
It is. It's.
22:41
Fucking tired and I think we're soon as it's completely
22:45
refreshing that. Yeah, that for me felt like
22:47
escapism, you know, I feel like that's like, I don't even know
22:51
if black escapism is a thing, but I felt like I was.
22:55
I didn't have to think too much whilst watching it, even though
22:59
a lot of the conversations were just fantastic and like the
23:01
stories were amazing in it, but I didn't feel uncomfortable,
23:07
which I feel like like, again, a 12 Years Slave, like I felt
23:10
really uncomfortable watching it.
23:12
So yeah. It also helps when it's a black
23:15
director. Yeah, exactly.
23:16
Yeah, do you? Know what I mean?
23:17
I think there's. But 12 Years a Slave is a black
23:20
director is Steve McQueen. Is that his name?
23:24
Yeah. Oh for us, Tantino.
23:26
No Django. Django Unchained.
23:28
Oh, sorry about. That.
23:29
But even Django I think is nuanced.
23:33
I enjoy Django. It's a different take on.
23:36
Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed it because again, I don't think we've seen
23:40
that. Some of it we've seen obviously
23:42
like the slavery element of it. But, you know, a slave rebelling
23:46
and at one point he's whipping a white man.
23:48
That's, that's insane, you know? Yeah, no, I hear it.
23:53
What do you? What do you do?
23:54
Do you take it? No, I don't take it.
23:56
I don't take it. I do understand why someone
23:58
might take it. And I think part of the question
24:00
that I asked you was about like, how much creative control, Matt,
24:03
you have is to explore where there are parameters where
24:07
someone could try and take this role and try and adapt it and
24:10
almost like shave off the excesses of the character.
24:13
The ones that play into like the most harmful stereotypes and
24:16
tropes, of which there are a lot, especially in in American
24:20
cinema, they love like certain black tropes.
24:24
They're about specifically, like they do stuff with black men and
24:27
specifically black women a certain way.
24:31
But no, I don't take it. I don't think I could live with
24:33
myself like perpetrating racial stereotypes.
24:37
I think that's just spot on barrel stuff.
24:39
Yeah. And it's there forever.
24:41
Yeah. Yeah, like you're on the
24:43
Internet. Just how how do you feel?
24:45
Do you take it? Do you like talk me through your
24:47
process? You're not going to take it on,
24:50
you do. You know what?
24:55
There's there's a particular part in this scenario which is
24:58
you've always felt uneasy about the way this character is
25:01
portrayed, which means I can't take it.
25:05
Now, if I was aware of these things but I didn't feel uneasy
25:12
about it, would I take it? Probably, yeah.
25:17
Like. And, and my question is like,
25:19
why wouldn't you feel uneasy about it?
25:21
Also giving example like what kind of what?
25:25
What kind of role? That's a good question.
25:29
I haven't actually broken it down.
25:30
I I literally like looked at it and sort of.
25:32
We could do something like that. We could do some examples right
25:34
now. Like what about Top Boy?
25:36
Top boy is a good example, right?
25:38
Because there are things that you don't like love about that,
25:41
right? But would I take that role?
25:43
The answer would be yes. Would would you do that?
25:45
Yeah, just because I feel like that's maybe an example of what
25:51
you said about how much control creatively.
25:53
And so I feel like I can tell that there must have been some
25:57
sort of collaborative effort because they are nuanced
26:02
characters. They're they're more than just
26:05
drug dealers. Yeah.
26:07
Like they they kind of develop them a bit.
26:09
Like top, what would you take? No.
26:12
You wouldn't take them. What to play like Deshane or
26:14
Sally? Oh, like a role within the.
26:16
Yeah, OK. Maybe that's why I'm not an
26:20
actor. What about for example?
26:23
That's probably going to be enough.
26:25
I think Sinners is a great example of like something that I
26:27
think. Yeah, but sinners is obvious.
26:30
Like who wouldn't take that? Like, you know, I mean like it's
26:32
not, it's not contentious. Crazy, right?
26:34
Like get out. Yeah.
26:36
Yeah, I take that you would. Yeah, OK.
26:39
Of course I would take that. Yeah.
26:44
Stuff like some of the classics, yeah, like when we were growing
26:47
up. Oh, like Shawshank Redemption?
26:49
Yeah, Shawshank Redemption. I'm even thinking like Coach
26:52
Carter was like one of my favourite films growing up, like
26:54
paid in full, like stuff like that.
26:57
I look back at that stuff. Yeah, I look back at that now
26:59
and I'm like, Nah, man. You wouldn't do it.
27:02
Nah, not paid in full. Can't be doing that.
27:07
Anyway, thank you for joining us today.
27:10
Hope you enjoyed some stuff about storytelling, Precious.
27:14
Did you enjoy today? Yeah, I really did.
27:16
Did you actually? Yeah.
27:17
I was nervous, but I I warmed up into.
27:22
It thank you. See you soon.
27:23
Take care. See you next week.
27:36
It's cool. I'm excited.
27:37
Not cool. It's going to be a good one.
27:40
I'm like nervous again. And he's illuminating what's
27:46
happening there. I was just about to start
27:49
cooking it. Man.
27:52
You're done it again. Lovely.
28:00
I was going to talk about sinners in a bit more.
28:02
Like we've all watched Sinners. Yeah.
28:04
Yeah. You were saying sinners is like
28:07
super layer then before it was like new ones.
28:09
What parts of centres did you enjoy the most?
28:11
That which were the parts that you thought are like this is
28:13
new, it's not been like done before or told before.
28:16
I think the fact that it was leaning in like the supernatural
28:22
and the the whole like gothic element of it, yeah, I thought
28:25
was great because I personally like stuff like that.
28:28
Like even though it was centred on vamp, like vampires and you
28:32
know, spirituality and like the voodoo elements and stuff, it
28:37
felt very grounded. It felt very real.
28:43
So I really enjoyed that. I also loved the Irish.
28:47
Folklore, that was. That was my favourite part of.
28:50
The film, just because I think what Ryan Coogler is really good
28:53
at doing is making again with like the villains.
28:56
The villains aren't black or white.
28:58
Like they're very layered. There's a, there's a lot more to
29:02
them than just like I'm, I'm a bad guy.
29:04
Yeah, that's complexity there. So I found the character of
29:07
Remic really interesting and I could find myself going.
29:12
I see where you're coming from. Yeah, I get it.
29:14
I. Get it?
29:16
So I enjoyed that element of it and I felt like I was learning
29:19
something new as well, because I've never really seen racism
29:22
through the Irish lens before. Or what?
29:25
Was it racism? Well, yeah, yeah.
29:27
I think. Because they also have their
29:31
shit was happening to them, yeah.
29:32
They had their own history. And it's never really spoken
29:35
about. So that was very interesting.
29:37
Yeah. I also thought like the way they
29:39
intertwined the Vietnamese story as well.
29:43
Yeah. It was amazing.
29:44
Yeah, you know, the the shopkeeper family, there was a
29:48
history apparently back in Jim Crow when white store owners
29:51
would never, wouldn't serve black people.
29:53
The Vietnamese community, yeah, they actually served black
29:56
people. So that sort of collaboration
30:00
and like partnership between the Asian, the Asian family and all
30:05
the black people in the actual party.
30:06
I thought that was that was really nice.
30:09
And like, I don't know how you feel about like when she let the
30:12
vampires in, but she, Loki did the right thing at the time.
30:17
I was what is she doing? But I think she probably did the
30:20
right thing in the end. Why?
30:21
Do you think she did breakfast? Because she saved the rest of
30:23
the village. But she also said that she was
30:25
thinking about the kid, probably.
30:27
Yeah, because had had they not gone in, I literally think the
30:30
vampires were on their way to the village and the village
30:33
would have been done. Do you think so?
30:35
Yeah, I think they said that like, remember it.
30:37
Was more like a threat though. I actually think they were going
30:40
to do it. I thought they were like saying
30:41
that so you would so she would do it.
30:43
I thought it was a bluff basically.
30:44
OK, OK. I mean because it.
30:46
Wasn't like local like, well, it wasn't like close.
30:49
But the vampires can like. They could move, they could
30:52
move. Like they could move, yeah.
30:54
So I think they would have got there pretty quick and just
30:56
patterned it. Yeah, I thought I was AI thought
30:59
it was a bluff when we were like, how?
31:01
Obviously she fell for it. Yeah, it worked, yeah.
31:04
But I hear it, though, because she's a mother.
31:05
Yeah. And she's thinking, oh, this
31:08
vampire is probably going to go kill my kid.
31:10
And also, like, your husband is like, one of them.
31:14
Yeah, Let me try save his soul if I can.
31:18
Yeah, by like stabbing him. Yeah, through the through the
31:20
heart with the stake. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair, fair.
31:23
But yeah, I think, I think sinners, I actually think
31:26
sinners is going to go down like in history.
31:28
Yeah, I. Just think it's it's going.
31:30
To be a classic, if it isn't already.
31:34
How do you feel about Sinners events?
31:35
I enjoyed it. Like what I loved about it most,
31:38
and this is probably what I love about like art in general is
31:43
symbolism isn't overpowering. And if you like knew nothing,
31:48
you just watch the film and be like, that was a great film.
31:50
Like you see that dance and that was just fun.
31:53
Like, and that's what I just loved about the film that
31:56
obviously we pick up on it and like, if you're interested in,
31:59
you might go read stuff about it.
32:01
But if you're not, you just can enjoy the the direction of the
32:05
film, like how it was written, the actors and the content of
32:09
it. So I just, yeah, I loved it, to
32:11
be honest. With you, yeah, I think in a
32:12
vacuum the entertainment value was off the charts.
32:14
Yeah, the music, the the way it was shot as well, I thought it
32:18
was super cinematic and like the scene that the music scene
32:22
inside, like where he's like infused all the African cultures
32:25
I just fought. Amazing that was.
32:27
Just brilliant. It was genius.
32:28
I've played that on on Spotify so many times.
32:31
Yeah. Yeah, because the whole
32:32
soundtrack's out. It's called Lads You and you
32:38
know he deloted the guitar for the film.
32:40
Crazy. I had a feeling that would that
32:42
would be. Yeah, I had a feeling.
32:42
I had a feeling. And his voice is just it's.
32:46
Unreal so. Good, so good.
32:52
All the best, all the best stories.
32:54
One that is the one that confronts it.
32:55
I. Think the best film?
32:58
The best films do. Both, yeah.
32:59
I think films can both confront the reality we live in, but also
33:03
take us out of the mud of today and think about or try to
33:09
imagine a future beyond what we're going through right now.
33:14
So yeah, I think the best songs can do both.
33:16
I think it can be done in different mediums.
33:19
Like I think for example, like Louis Theroux and that
33:23
documentary that he's done recently when he went to Israel,
33:27
that was confronting reality, reality and I and I still think
33:32
that's very powerful. And I think it could also be
33:37
done in a film like medium and still be just as powerful, which
33:43
we've we've had many films that do that.
33:45
Yeah, yeah, I'd agree. I'd agree both.
33:47
If I had to lean on one side, I'd probably say Escape.
33:50
And really I just think it gives you the bounds that haven't been
33:55
seen yet. So like if you take for example,
33:57
a movie like her, that was the reason why we now kind of have
34:04
Alexa and things like that. And they literally even tried to
34:08
use the voice from her. And so when you sort of escape
34:11
reality, you kind of see something that hasn't happened
34:14
before. And the way something could be
34:18
it's. Kind of like what Black Mirror
34:19
it. Kind of does, yeah.
34:21
Yeah. And when you haven't seen that,
34:23
I just think it it now elevates humanity in the sense gives you
34:28
something to aspire to, something to achieve.
34:31
Yeah. Yeah, I do think escaping
34:33
reality is is important on 2. Fronts like that.
34:36
You you want to talk about and, and see a reality that you've
34:39
never thought about before. It stimulates you intellectually
34:42
and it opens like the collective mind to think about like things
34:46
beyond what we're thinking about right now.
34:49
But I also think like there's an important escapism in film and
34:52
media that it's just like about enjoyment, like after a long day
34:56
of work, like you want to turn the TV on and sort of escape
34:59
into that, that film, that TV, whatever it is.
35:02
I can't say when I watch maths, like I'm really learning too
35:05
much. I mean, I'm not challenging like
35:08
societal norms. I'm just looking at like mess.
35:12
Like it's, you know what I mean? It's just enjoyment.
35:14
And sometimes like after a long day of work, that's what you
35:17
need. You don't need to like.
35:18
Just switch your brain off, yeah?
35:20
You're already a bit fried, like let's just relax a little bit.