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V Levels - Reflect and Revise · Insights from the Edge

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to a new podcast from the Edge Foundation.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: This series is designed to be heard in short bursts over coffee or a commute.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: We bring together experts in policy, research, and practice.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: We'll explore how education and the world of work are developing for young people and education providers.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be asking how that world will give young people across the UK the knowledge and skills they need to flourish in their future life and work.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Insights from the Edge.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to this episode, and we're going to be talking about something that is very important in the education sector at the moment, and that is a new set of qualifications, the V-levels.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I've got two great guests with me, one from Edge and one from Outside.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Dana, today you publish some really important research in this space.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's the 22nd of September, and this is hot off the press.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: So from that research, just tell us a little bit about what you see as the kind of problem that V-levels are trying to solve.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a good principle behind V-levels.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Practitioners are not opposed to V-levels, and this came through during in the survey that we administered to practitioners.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there's actually cautious optimism about them.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: People particularly liked the idea of smaller vocational qualifications that gives young people more flexibility and allows them to combine that vocational academic subject and route, if you'd like, rather than having to specialize very early.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the fundamental purpose is still very unclear.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the most powerful message that kind of came through in both the survey and the roundtable discussions.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it is essentially your question as to what V-levels are trying to serve across the sector.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: And people want to know who the typical V-level learner is, the gap the qualification fills.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So this simplification, I guess, that has been introduced with the V-level qualifications, it's understandable, but it can only be clear when the purpose is clear itself.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a risk of adding another qualification without a clear identity.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Trying to kind of describe these things without really quite having a handle on them.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it definitely was for providers and being able to kind of communicate what they are and what V-levels will re lead to as well.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something we saw with T-levels, just understanding the progression.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: So once kind of staff, not just teaching staff, have an understanding of where V-levels can lead, they'd be able to kind of communicate it as a whole.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yes to your question.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's really helpful.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, we're we've got our alphabet soup for various levels.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: V-levels are coming kind of hot on the heels of T-levels.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I know you did some previous research uh on those.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: So what have we learned from the rollout of T-levels?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: And are those lessons being learned for V-levels?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to articulate really carefully because they sound quite similar.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've definitely from the report, I can only speak off of the report, I think, where we uh spoke to 200 students across uh quite a few colleges and also teaching staff on T-levels.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the main thing, the main grasp we got from that report was that the implementation is not something that happens just when teaching starts.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Colleges need time beforehand to understand the specifications, to train staff, design the curriculum, organize assessment, and engage in employers in the wider sector to kind of to communicate the offer to both students and learners.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And linking back to the roundtable, the participants also suggested that what you had just mentioned about the providers need at least a full academic year to kind of prepare all of that.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: When the resources from the DFE and awarding bodies are published, they would need a year after that to prepare for all of this.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: So there are things that, of course, worked very well for the T-levels as well that we can we can learn from.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that the teachers were very happy with was the CPD that they were offered.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if I remember correctly, it was mainly run by the ETF at the time, and they spoke very highly of that CPD.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: So seeing something similar possibly for the V levels in the survey that we administered, um, a lot of the teachers who responded to that survey asked if there would be any CPD involved in V-levels, or would it be just an adjustment to the teaching that they already deliver?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there are questions behind that as well.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then another thing that kind of came through from the report of the T-levels and what we need to learn is communication, which again leads back to what I said earlier, um, just understanding the reason, the progression, and the clarity around what V-levels are for and what they could lead to, um, to be able to communicate that to staff, to students, and to parents.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, because we saw with T-levels in the first year or two, there was a very high dropout rate with students.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because they were kind of misled in the very beginning or miscommunicated about the progression and where T-levels lead to.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't want that, we don't want that risk with V-levels.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, it comes back to giving them time, giving the sector time to be able to articulate um and illustrate really the progression that V-levels can offer to be able to communicate it.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Dana.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Mark.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's lovely to have you here.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: We want a bit of a view from the front line, uh, not just uh from our own research.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: We've been talking to lots of people.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Changed jobs since I last spoke to you.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: I have.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I was um head of curriculum design, assistant principal at ADA.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: I have just retired.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, however, I'm still uh going to be a consultant with ADA and I'm doing some work with the British Computer Society as well.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm kind of in the early days, early days of retirement, but keeping my finger in the pie, I think.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because when people retire, they get to say what they really thought all along.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's great to have you with us.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Reflecting on the kind of areas that Donna and I have been talking about, what what's your view from the frontline?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: What does it feel like from a provider on both V-levels and that point about lessons from T-levels?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think as far as I can see, and from talking to other providers as well, I think the lessons from T-levels, which we've implemented and implemented very successfully at HETA, is it takes an awful lot longer than policymakers might assume in order to get it right.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think in terms of say the FE workforce being ready to deliver V-levels, what would that look like?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think colleges, as all providers always try, will be doing their very best to be ready.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think that came out at the round table discussion as well, that I was part of.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: So the issue isn't willingness and it's also not resistance to V-levels.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: The issue is how much meaningful preparation providers can actually do without the detailed materials that they're going to need.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's where the issue comes.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: See, for a lot of people, September 2027 might sound a long way away.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: But in reality, colleges are already planning that intake now.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: I certainly know at ADA, they've been working not just on curriculum offer, but also on staffing, timetabling, recruitment, we're getting our prospectus ready, progression advice for when we actually have students and parents or potential students and parents coming in for open days.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: All of that needs to be ready from now onwards.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a real issue.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: So if detailed qualification and assessment materials, as from what I've read, the latest from what I've read from the DFA are only available in spring of 2027, that creates a real constraint.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: By then, most, if not the vast majority actually, of planning decisions will have already been made.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: They can look at subject content, some of that's been published, but again, not in terms of specific wording bodies yet.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: And think about likely staffing.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: They can do some curriculum mapping, and they can engage with employers to the knowledge of the qualification they currently have.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: But that's there's a limit to how far they can go without final specifications, assessment structures, examples, and clear delivery guidelines.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: We haven't got those yet.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's why readiness means more than having a specification.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Genuine readiness means giving providers the information early enough to make good decisions, alongside subject-specific CPD, which Don has already mentioned and is essential, and it's what helped T-levels, assessment support, teaching resources, and clear progression guidelines.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I would actually turn it around slightly and say the real question is not simply will colleges be ready by September 2027 for the first cohort of V levels.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's are they being given what they need early enough to plan September 2027 properly?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really good way of putting it, Mark.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that there's a real willingness amongst the providers we talk to.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think people see the benefits of this.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that the kind of um overall aim isn't clear and people aren't behind that, but that pathway to f from here to there, that's what people are genuinely worried about.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think it's interesting, obviously DFE are doing a huge amount of work in this area, and we have a huge amount of respect for the officials who are doing their best in that space, and more guidance has come out this last week, which is which is great.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think there's a big difference between providers saying that they are getting ready to deliver and providers telling us that they don't have what they need to deliver really well.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think everyone's gonna do their best to deliver them.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: But the question is kind of are they gonna deliver them?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Are they gonna deliver them in in the way that we would hope?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: And we all know from previous policies that if you don't get that first year right, it's really hard to row back.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to get your take on on another area, which was just thinking a bit about um the kind of the progression routes and the way that these kind of tie together for young people.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um obviously ADR is is quite a specific area, but I know you have expertise in the wider sector as well.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: How do you see V-levels fitting into the offer and and kind of pathways for young people?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think the way V-levels have been positioned, and this is to allow for greater flexibility and choice.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: And will V-levels translate into some meaningful choice and progression for young people?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um somewhat equivocal.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think potentially yes.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think the recent the September, the recent dead DFA update has made me more positive about program flexibility.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: The decision, however, not to impose national rules of combination is important.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad they've said that.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad Jackie Smith was very clear on that.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: And equally UGAS tariff treatment is also going to be helpful for progression.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I think those are really good recent developments.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: However, I do think there's going to be a need for more flexibility in how the qualification can be combined with other qualifications.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: Effectively, the premise has been up until this point.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: We've got three A levels combination, or we've got T level.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: And what a lot of the second has been concerned about is that the missing middle, that third way, that qualifications that are both vocational but can be mixed with academic qualifications to those who aren't ready yet for a very specific technical pathway but want to engage with vocationalism for want of a better term?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: Where are those qualifications?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where V-levels are being pitched at.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think the problem is well, what does that detail look like?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: What's the flexibility in terms of combination?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: How can we combine V levels and A levels, V levels and V levels, and V levels with those alternate academic qualifications that are continuing until a V level comes into place in that area?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: That I don't think has been clarified yet.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I think that is what's giving a lot of providers cause for concern in terms of well, how flexible will this flexibility be?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'll give I'll give you an example.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: And this is from my own experiences, from my experience at Ada as well, and it's in terms of digital.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: And digital is going to be one of the first V-levels that's coming out in September 2027.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so I'm fully on board and support the broad digital systems and data V-level.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's its official title.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: I've looked closely at the content.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think it has a clear and valuable role as an interdisciplinary applied digital qualification.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: However, broad does not have to mean singular.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: I don't accept the leap from broad, which I was presented, to therefore one qualification is sufficient for almost the whole digital landscape.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think those work together.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that's actually realistic, especially when you consider there are three digital T levels as an example.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: So suddenly having one digital V level at 360 guided learning hours doesn't seem fit for purpose.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: Therefore, what was announced the other week that there'll be a one-year extension for larger computing and IT diploma, so 720 guided learning hours, the equivalent of two way levels, is really welcome because it recognises that the transition cannot happen overnight, but it is a transition measure, not a long-term curriculum answer.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: And providers planning future cohorts now need clarity.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what comes after that transition?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where I think the gap is.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's super helpful, Mark.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: And Don, I wanted to just come to you for on that same area, which I know was the kind of second big recommendation from the report around kind of greater flexibility and the combination of V-levels and other other qualifications.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: What were you hearing there, just to build on Mark's uh points and where would you like that to go?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think, yeah, just to add to Mark and just reiterate what he said, it's it's quite important to kind of protect that flexibility and learner choice, and but to make sure again that it's clear because again, the young people looking at their options, they want to understand the route that they're going to take and where it's going to lead to.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And to do so, they need to understand the combination of the different qualifications available to them.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that can look very differently to every single student, it's quite unique to the different pathways.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: So just really making that very understandable in an illustrative way, I think, is quite important for the sector to have.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: Could I add a little bit as well, Ollie?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: See, I actually think some of the issue here is I think policy can become overprotective of the space occupied now by T-levels.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: I strongly support T-levels.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: I have delivered them, I've seen what they can achieve for the right learner.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: We've just got six of our students from ADA who've now gone from their T-level directly into digital degree apprenticeships at Amazon.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm a big fan, but one size doesn't fit all.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we need to recognize that.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Success stories are so important.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as we come kind of towards the end of our time together, I wanted to come to each of you just for a thought on if if you were kind of stepping into the policy shoes, um, obviously there's a lot of recommendations in in the in the report.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: What would be the kind of one thing that you would prioritize to try and get V-levels into the best possible place for kind of delivery?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um so Donnie, obviously you've talked to a lot of people about this.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sorry to have to ask you to pick one, but just kind of highlight one thing that you think would be a top choice.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think, yeah, I think there's I think I mentioned time already, so make sure that the sector is given enough time.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it goes back to what Mark and I were saying as well at the beginning, is that it's not how quickly teaching can start on V-levels, it's kind of how well they can be delivered.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the sector, you shouldn't allow, you shouldn't have the sector to absorb those hidden costs, which are training staff, um, possibly facilities needed, the marketing as well as V-level.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So there are some hidden costs that are needed um within that that probably haven't been detailed uh well enough just yet.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think time is my key recommendation, just that it's delivered well, not quickly.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Love that, it's really nice and clear.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And Mark, what would be your kind of top suggestion for policymakers?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think following on from what I said before, I think it's just testing whether the curriculum itself is genuinely flexible.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said, in digital, for example, one broad digital systems indeed at a V level should not automatically be treated as sufficient for the whole digital landscape.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: There needs to be room for additional focused V levels and for sensible partnered combinations where they serve a different learner and progression purpose from the T level.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: So my one priority would be to test the reform against real learner experience before first teaching.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: Can providers plan it properly?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Can learners access meaningful combinations?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: And does the curriculum preserve enough breadth to support different ambitions?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: If the answer to any of these is no, then the implementation plan still needs adjusting.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: That is a very uh sensible test, Mark, and I can tell that that's come from your technical brain on the on the kind of the work that you do.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, very sensible.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean I think this has been uh a really positive conversation.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot out there that can make V-levels work.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of positivity from the sector.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's a view that for most people that this is a kind of sensible way to go.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there's also a really clear view here that we want to make it work really well.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's an extremely complicated area, particularly when you look at different subjects.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and to do it well and get a good first year that we don't have to then kind of recover from.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Can we kind of see those um those progression pathways for young people?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that point about combinations, which has come up a lot and the way that fee levels combine with other things, is probably a really good place to kind of finish this because that's going to challenge, hasn't it, all the way back to 14 to 19 diplomas, if not before.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: We need to make sure we don't have just individual qualifications that make sense, but qualifications that can be put together into packages that make sense for a young person thinking about their future career, thinking about the skills they want to develop and getting themselves ready for industry.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, Dana, Mark, thank you so much.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, thank you for doing this research, Donna, in this in this really important area.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and great to be able to talk through some of those findings with you both today.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast was produced by the Edge Foundation.