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477 The Great, Good, Mid and Ugly of the MCU - THE CINE-FILES LIVE! · The Cine-Files

0:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, everyone, and welcome to a brand new live episode of the cinephiles.
0:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I am John Roker, one half of the cinephiles, and I'm sure my partner Steve Morris will be coming in momentarily to join me to have this fun conversation on the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
0:30
[SPEAKER_00]: We're on the precipice of a Spider-Man brand new day coming out.
0:33
[SPEAKER_00]: We're currently in the middle of
0:35
[SPEAKER_00]: of a number of things happening and being announced you've got doomsday coming up later on this year we've got Daredevil born again season two really kicking into high gear and everything going on there we got so much going on at the Marvel Cinematic Universe and Steven I are about to or recorded part one earlier this week of Deadpool so Deadpool we are going to be driving into Deadpool had a lot of fun
0:57
[SPEAKER_00]: talking about part one, it's such a fun movie.
1:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And although that movie doesn't 100% qualify, but what we're talking about today, we are going to let you know where we place Deadpool in our overall list.
1:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically this idea came about from conversations that Stephen I had about the Marvel movies and where we would place the Marvel movies.
1:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he was like, what about these middleing Marvel movies?
1:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do we place those middleing Marvel movies?
1:22
[SPEAKER_00]: How do they have some value?
1:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And also, yeah, that sounds great to me.
1:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the idea of us discussing these Marvel movies and breaking them down and kind of clarified where we think certain Marvel movies land when it comes to great Marvel movies, good Marvel movies, mid-Lig Marvel movies, and ugly Marvel movies.
1:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Essentially, I was using the good, the bad, the ugly,
1:44
[SPEAKER_00]: and just add it some categories and move some stuff around and so that's kind of what we're looking at today.
1:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to break this down and talk about it.
1:51
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to focus more on the middling Marvel movies, but we will talk about what movies we think qualify for the great category when it comes to the Marvel Cinematic Universe and what movies qualify for
2:06
[SPEAKER_00]: the good quality.
2:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's going to be separating of these Marvel movies.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: There's 47 of them if I'm correct on that.
2:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to talk about them and break them down and then figure out where we place them and have a fun conversation about where they go and what they're all about and why they belong in the categories they belong in and all these things like that.
2:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the situation that we're dealing with here today.
2:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And so
2:30
[SPEAKER_00]: We will be talking about that.
2:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, Steve Morris will be along just a couple of minutes.
2:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure he's got some family stuff that's popped up here for a second.
2:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So please be patient.
2:37
[SPEAKER_00]: We got stuff to get into.
2:38
[SPEAKER_00]: This is going to be a lot of fun.
2:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And we want to hear from you all.
2:41
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you?
2:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do you put?
2:42
[SPEAKER_00]: What are the great movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe?
2:45
[SPEAKER_00]: What movies are the middling movies in the cinematic universe?
2:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Are the good ones, rather?
2:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Then what movies are the middling ones?
2:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And what movies do you think are absolutely ugly ones, the bad ones, that are just no good.
2:55
[SPEAKER_00]: that you got to let us know in the comments there in the chat.
3:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And those of you who are watching later on or listening to us later on, if you want to come back and leave a comment on our YouTube video or you can leave a comment on our page on or on our Twitter, letting us know what your lists are.
3:12
[SPEAKER_00]: For this particular situation and you know we're in phase six right now right with what do we got coming on here phase six is happening right now and that is fantastic for first steps which happened we have spotted man brand new day coming at the end of July, which I hope you all enjoyed that new trailer
3:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Then we've got Doomsday coming in December of this year, later on, December of this year.
3:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And then December of 2027 is one we're supposed to get secret wars.
3:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, there's been a lot of conversations about whether they're going to move Doomsday, stop the idea of Doomsday and make it Doomsday on one week, and doon three the next week.
3:47
[SPEAKER_00]: They're even exploring the possibility of letting a dropping it a week before Doon three comes out.
3:53
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll see if that actually happens or not.
3:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It'll be interesting to see if they stick to that time or not.
3:58
[SPEAKER_00]: because that is super important for how they're looking at all of this and the box office taken the reception to it all.
4:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But so far, the bus has been pretty positive.
4:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We've really enjoyed the initial trailers that came out in December into January.
4:11
[SPEAKER_00]: People have liked the stuff they're hearing behind the scenes.
4:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Kevin Feige said that he is on set daily.
4:17
[SPEAKER_00]: for the issues.
4:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's been a little bit of drama reported a little bit of drama behind the scenes between two or the couple, two of the cast members.
4:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But look, you're going to get that many actors on a set.
4:26
[SPEAKER_00]: There's bound to be some kind of issues between some of the actors, especially if they don't know each other, have to work together before they want to stand out.
4:33
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's just a different animal.
4:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's bound to be some friction at times between with the egos and everything involved in the professional desire to look good and
4:41
[SPEAKER_00]: want to do a good work.
4:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's all there in the in the making of those movies.
4:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So we will see what the end result is later on.
4:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Certainly Marvel right now is a little bit wobbly.
4:51
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I know people loved Wonderman, which was really fantastic earlier this year, but they're no more to get just had the most highly rated episode of its run happen this past week.
5:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But Michael Vogel and I know review on the geek buddies, we weren't necessarily that high
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So jazzed as everyone else is about the alternative award again because there were some issues with in our opinions, the issues with some of the storyline, some of the acting here and things of that nature and health, some things are happening conveniently in certain ways and it's not as gritty as we would like it to be.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we both kind of fell into that feeling that it isn't like the Penguin on HBO Max.
5:32
[SPEAKER_00]: We wish it was more like the Penguin on HBO Max.
5:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And also
5:37
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's this idea of where they're going next with the X-Men with Sadie Sink and all that that's been released there with the Jeff on the hot mic, what he's been reporting what he's been talking about as well.
5:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And so is this where they're going fully with the X-Men are the is the rumors of the five movies that Sadie Sink has been signed on to is that where they're going next.
5:57
[SPEAKER_00]: with this whole mute saga is it going to be multiple X-Men movies or the X-Men appearing in multiple movies as they get rolled out there in phase six and seven.
6:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot to look forward to when you look at the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
6:11
[SPEAKER_00]: There's in the future right now they've got Black Panther 3 that they haven't really haven't put a date out for that one yet.
6:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Armor Wars, Blade is apparently still dance around and they're
6:19
[SPEAKER_00]: a sequel for Sean Sheen, the Legend of the 10 Rings, and as I mentioned, that X-Men film, and they just signed Joana Kahlo and Lee Song Jin to come on and write that one to work with Jake Shire because they had worked together on Thunderbolt.
6:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're the latest writers to come up what I think the third set of writers to come aboard for the X-Men movie.
6:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of things still in flux, but I think we're heading towards a December where this movie, Doomsday,
6:48
[SPEAKER_00]: a success and I think that's or it's going to dent the marvel brand even more.
6:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So but everything inside me tells me we're we're we're lining up to have a great 2026 for Marvel movies.
7:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels like Spider-Man brand new day is going to be fantastic.
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels like Doom's Day is going to be great.
7:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's just that energy that you feel behind the marvel universe that it is going to happen.
7:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So we will see in the end what it all leads to if it's going to go down and and and um
7:15
[SPEAKER_00]: explore the mutant stuff.
7:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Certainly Spider-Man brand today in that trailer.
7:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It seemed like they were exploring Peter's possible mutation in demand spider.
7:26
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole could be coming savage.
7:31
[SPEAKER_00]: the mutations and all of that.
7:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and then what is Gene's role, if Sadie Sink is playing June Grey, which I think is 99.9% sure, what is what is her role in all of this?
7:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And are we going to see any other X-Men pop-up in this Spider-Man film?
7:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they saving certain things?
7:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything gets spoiled nowadays, but, and certainly I'm guilty of sometimes doing that with on my shows, but I wonder if there's still a couple of hidden secrets that they have for
7:57
[SPEAKER_00]: that movie and what's going to happen with that movie.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll see, we'll see you overall, you know.
8:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot to talk about when it comes to the Marvel universe, a lot of films to look at when you look at the Marvel universe, certainly phase one had a, oh, sorry, there we go.
8:12
[SPEAKER_00]: All of those, so many Marvel universes kind of crazy to think about how many films have been in the Marvel universe.
8:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So
8:19
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about them all here on the show, not extensively, but certainly the ones that are middling were spent a little more time on, but we're also going to talk about which ones we consider to be the great ones, the good ones, the ugly ones, and then as I said, the middling ones.
8:32
[SPEAKER_00]: But I can't do it alone.
8:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's bring them into the channel, my co-host here on the cinephiles, and that is Steve Morris.
8:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Steve, what's going on, man?
8:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there was been a lot of things going on today that led to a bit of a delay.
8:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very, very sorry.
8:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got my sister in town, my son, we were doing family activities.
8:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I lost track of time ran in here.
8:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Couldn't get anything to work correctly.
8:57
[SPEAKER_01]: couldn't select the right camera, couldn't do any of that stuff, but I'm here now and I'm ready to talk some MCU.
9:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you weren't here, yes.
9:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just telling people for the first nine minutes of this going on and on about how we're going to be exploring the MCU movies and and kind of separating them from the great ones, to the good ones, to the middling ones, to the ugly ones.
9:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But we're really focusing on the middling ones and how this was an idea that you would kind of
9:20
[SPEAKER_00]: uh uh uh posed to uh to me when we were having a conversation about this stuff and so it kind of led us going into this stuff so yeah well why did you want to talk about the midding movies?
9:30
[SPEAKER_00]: What kind of sparked your desire to talk about the middling MCU films?
9:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It just kind of got to this I was I've been rewatching some Marvel movies lately go through kind of slowly and we always talk about
9:42
[SPEAKER_01]: The great Marvel films, the reason that we fell in love with the MCU, the ones that really brought us all together, and then particularly lately, we've been bitching about the bad Marvel films and how they lost their groove.
9:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And all of those things and to sound agree, I started to think that maybe the
10:00
[SPEAKER_01]: The backbone of the Marvel cinematic universe is in that sort of top of the middle, like those ones, like they don't maybe they don't qualify as great, but they are the ones where they are so solid, like I think if we didn't have those solid ones in the middle, the great ones wouldn't make the difference.
10:17
[SPEAKER_01]: that was the big, that was sort of the thought, and it kind of led to us going, well, which ones are the great ones?
10:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And which ones?
10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: There are just good and where is the, you know, where are and where is the term used middling ones?
10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And I went, there's an interesting conversation you're not just in terms of ranking the films, although I'm sure you held disagree on some of that.
10:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But what is it that makes a solid marvel movie?
10:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, what is it, you know, we know what makes some of the great ones great, but what makes a solid one solid, yeah, well, do you do you want to start with that, do you want to start with what you think makes, or do you want to say that afterwards after we discuss these films, I think we need to, I think we need to figure out what's in these categories, otherwise we are sure what they have in common.
11:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds good to me.
11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
11:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got my list and everyone who's following along at home, you can pull out your list of the MCU movies.
11:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And Steve, how was it for you?
11:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Separate in the great, the good, the middling and the ugly films?
11:19
[SPEAKER_00]: How was that process for you?
11:22
[SPEAKER_01]: The ends were pretty easy and the middle got real, real hard.
11:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, there's no question, you know, I know what a great film is.
11:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know what a shitty film is.
11:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
11:32
[SPEAKER_01]: When you get into the sort of like, well, is this good or middling or is this feeling or bad, that's where it started to get a little bit difficult for me.
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think also that's where it gets really personal.
11:43
[SPEAKER_01]: because yeah, it is is that if you love this character and you love this actor and the movie is man, you might still go, no, it was good.
11:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you not a fan of those characters or those actors or the then it doesn't matter, it's going to take a lot more for a performance at good level.
11:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that as well.
12:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I tell you this Steve.
12:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we talked yesterday about it and your process is it's like, I found myself only struggling on two or three of these, but I've got, well, I've got way more good movies than middling and so it's going to be interesting to say, although I do have some surprises in the middling.
12:20
[SPEAKER_00]: versus the good, and so this is going to be an interesting conversation to have.
12:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty set on the ugly, and we might, I don't know if we're going to diverge from the ugly that much, but I think the good in the middleing is going to be where we kind of have our interesting conversations.
12:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to do what I was going to ask is like what I was thinking is a little we could kind of go back and like start with the great maybe and we each get to pick one and if there's no disagreement about it then we go okay that is solidly on the great list and then I think we'll have to have some discussion and maybe we'll decide between the two of us where we're going to end up putting it that sounds good okay sure that sounds good do you want to start if you want me to start
13:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm happy to start and I will start with a movie that we recently fairly recently did on the cinephiles that I think is truly great and it's probably for me the most heartfelt movie of the entire MCU and that's Guardians of the Galaxy.
13:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely love it.
13:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll watch it anytime.
13:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it is a great movie and I think it is a groundbreaking movie in terms of saying what these superhero movies could be, you know?
13:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's a fantastic film.
13:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely, maybe the greatest film James Gunn is done to date and you think it's a great, I don't think there's even an argument that it's the greatest film he's ever done.
13:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a great expression of who he is, a great expression of his approach to movies, to superhero movies and how he sees these characters and where James Gunn really does his best work and that is in the character development of the people in his movies.
13:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, and I think you're right there.
13:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So I agree with the gardens of the galaxy.
13:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I will move to Avengers Infinity War.
13:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That is one of the most rewatchable movies for me.
13:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's an absolute great film that deserves to be at the top of the list.
14:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't agree more, and in particular, for Infinity War, it's I always got to put in this isn't a category I think anybody should judge films by, but I always do, which is degree of difficulty, the degree of difficulty to service all of these characters in a satisfying way and still have a plot that advances in a story that makes sense is
14:25
[SPEAKER_01]: on it's off the charts hard.
14:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It is incredibly difficult and they deliver.
14:30
[SPEAKER_01]: There are so many solid emotional moments in infinity war like I think it's incredibly impressive.
14:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
14:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
14:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's your next one?
14:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm going to go into a, I'm going in a slightly different direction, another one we've talked about on the cinephiles and for me by the way, I feel there's, there is a theme of what makes these Marvel MC movies great, what makes the great ones great, and because my next one is Captain America winner soldier, which yes.
14:58
[SPEAKER_01]: absolutely fantastic.
14:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing about it is that particularly if you look at guardians and Captain American, what are soldiers?
15:04
[SPEAKER_01]: These are movies that have a vision.
15:06
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not just saying we're going to do a superhero movie.
15:09
[SPEAKER_01]: They have a vision of a particular way of looking at the world and Captain, you know, for guardians of the galaxy is this wacky bunch of losers who we shouldn't like, but we actually love all coming together.
15:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It's deeply heartfelt, great sense of humor,
15:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And when a soldier is that 70s spy thriller, you know, it's good.
15:30
[SPEAKER_01]: In Captain American, put him in this different place and put him in a situation that where his Captain Americanness is kind of coming up against the reality.
15:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's fantastic, though.
15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I grew with you a hundred percent, you know, winter soldiers on my top of the list, top of great movies list as well.
15:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the 70s thing is important.
15:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking at the time that that film came out.
15:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
15:51
[SPEAKER_00]: This was the Marvel Cinematic Universe and already critics were starting to like dismiss it as just kind of frivolous and comic book movies.
15:59
[SPEAKER_00]: The critics resist it the oncoming of the Marvel machine.
16:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And certainly they were not happy to see this kind of taken over.
16:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I feel like Winter Soldier was the answer to that.
16:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it was intentionally the answer to that.
16:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But he became the answer to that because it showed what these movies can do, what they can explore, what they can evoke, and that they can reach the classic status of things like three days of the condor, or the parallax view, or whatever you're at the igre's section, whatever you're set for every sevenies that kind of spy thriller film is, they're able to do it.
16:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, also introducing new characters, pushing the narratives that are going on with their current
16:36
[SPEAKER_00]: as characters and questioning systemic stuff questioning how to protect ourselves a government agency that's probably gone wild and been infiltrated by Hydra.
16:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So there was so much there that I just kind of love in winter soldier and exploring of course at the heart of it of what happens when a friendship gets reborn but your friend has been brainwashed and has been committing murders for decades.
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you do with that?
16:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's always been tough whenever I felt to face that circumstance myself.
17:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's, you know, I'm sure it's not similar.
17:06
[SPEAKER_01]: The, I also, I think, but the less about Hoover, the less we say about Hoover, the less we say about Hoover, the less we say about Hoover.
17:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so many Hoover stories.
17:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So the, but the other thing I think is that, it's like, when Hollywood was first toying with superhero movies, it was always feeling as a comic book geek, I always presented it of like, oh, we're doing another of those kid stuff things.
17:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, too smart, not too deep because this is all just, you know, fun, silly things.
17:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And what winter soldier says is goes, no, it is a superhero movie.
17:37
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to give you all the superhero goodness you want, but this is about something, you know, yeah, more serious take for sure.
17:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
17:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that yours?
17:47
[SPEAKER_00]: That was mine, right?
17:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
17:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's both of ours.
17:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It belongs to everyone, I think.
17:51
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
17:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I go to I'm going to go to infinity endgame just to kind of do the one to from or sorry infinity and be Avengers endgame just do the one to from an infinity war to endgame and game is probably the most rewatchable film for me in the MCU and it's a long one.
18:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But I put it on all the time.
18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I just kind of love endgame.
18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Infinity War is a slightly better film, but I prefer endgame in terms of a watch.
18:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I just kind of love to put that.
18:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if where they go on this, what they explore, the questions they ask, the humor, I don't mind fat, though, or I like what goes on with Robert Downey Jr. in the sacrifice that he has to make Donnie Stark.
18:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And what cat does, and also the jokes around time travel with Ant-Man and the Hulk and all of that, and seeing the progression of Nebula and her seeing the younger part of herself and having that conversation, if people always talk about, what would you tell your younger self?
18:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, here is legitimately that scene there in the film.
18:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So so much to enjoy and game it.
18:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the way they wrap it up but when it's over.
18:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're going to be surprised to hear me say this.
19:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I do have endgame on my great films list, but it drifted towards the bottom and I kept thinking about the good.
19:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's the thing about it.
19:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's I think as a film as a whole, just thinking of it, not as part of the MCU, not as the culmination of all these different movies, bringing all these characters together.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it is definitely less good than Infinity War.
19:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it kind of drifts a little bit.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: There are parts in it that I care less about, parts in I care more about.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But when it delivers, it delivers like crazy.
19:34
[SPEAKER_01]: There really are very few more movies filled with more satisfying payoffs, then and game.
19:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I put it on this degree difficulty scale where I'm like, that was so hard to do.
19:45
[SPEAKER_01]: That was so hard to give.
19:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it's not just our main Avengers characters that have great moments.
19:51
[SPEAKER_01]: You have all of that.
19:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, just the, which I watched it all the time.
19:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Every time it pops up on social media, the big opening up the thing and all the heroes showing up at events.
20:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, moment.
20:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I've watched it so many times and it is so satisfying because of this thing and this is the thing.
20:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have a theory about what makes the great movies great.
20:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Infinity War and endgame don't fit in it because what Infinity War and endgame are is a culmination of this is what the entire Marvel cinematic universe can deliver when it's all working together perfectly.
20:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Now that's not what I think is great about Guardians of the Galaxy or Winter Soldier or some of the other ones I put on the
20:29
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the delivery of the promise of the MCU happens in Infinity War and Endgame, which is, okay?
20:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So I am from the Great List.
20:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, your question.
20:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But you don't define them as confused on the delineation you're making.
20:47
[SPEAKER_00]: You're saying they belong in the Great Movie Conversation, but you're saying they're not what make the MCU movies great.
20:54
[SPEAKER_01]: No, let me explain because I'm, yeah, this all terrible.
20:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll say what my theory is, and then I'll say what I want to say about it.
21:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
21:02
[SPEAKER_01]: My theory is basically all the movies on my great MCU list are made by filmmakers with a true vision that was unique.
21:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so that certainly applies to the two we've already talked about, Guardians of the Galaxy and which are soldier and I think it's going to apply to some of the other ones of go on this list.
21:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, but I think Infinity War and N game, why they deserve to be on this list, is that they are what Marvel said they can do that I think none of us believed.
21:26
[SPEAKER_01]: which is taking a whole bunch of characters from a whole bunch of different movies and a whole bunch of different stories and bring them all together and deliver an ultimate story, an ultimate Marvel story and make it satisfying.
21:39
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why, so I don't see Infinity War and Endgame as a visionary film the way I see Guardians of the Galaxy.
21:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I see the culmination of it is exactly the promise that Marvel is failing to deliver on right now, which is...
21:54
[SPEAKER_01]: with the multiverse saga and maybe what we're going to see next with the next Avengers movie of trying to bring in all these threads and make them work in infinity more in end game they succeeded in bringing in all the threads and makes them work.
22:05
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where the greatness is to me.
22:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me challenge your point because I like this, but let me challenge a little bit.
22:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So what separates infinity war and end game from return of the king?
22:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Return of the King is also a culmination is also all these separate story lines and separate characters all coming together and it is the promise of the J.R. or token thing so would you say that we're trying to the king is not a film that makes
22:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the greatness of it, well, first of all, I'm a love for turn of the king and yeah, other one you could put in, you could put in, um, Deathly Hallows, too, which is J.K. Rowling bringing.
22:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure, right in there with the story.
22:43
[SPEAKER_01]: The difference is, is that the Lord of the Rings was already written.
22:47
[SPEAKER_01]: They had already figured, he had the chair or token had already figured all those things out.
22:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Jacob rolling had figured out, she planned all their plans in playoffs.
22:54
[SPEAKER_01]: When you get infinity war and endgame, you have all these different movies and all these different threads made by all these different filmmakers and things that have been happening in Finland.
23:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Not let us the story.
23:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
23:05
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
23:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, well, I'm saying, so if your question is, do I think they're in the category with return of the king?
23:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think return of the king is doing the same thing.
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: What's different the other differences is that the Lord of the Rings movie, that's one vision.
23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: That's Jay that's that's Jara Tolkien and that's by your jack.
23:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas this is the vast corporate network of the MCU all having to work together with many, many different writers feeding these two directors to make those things.
23:35
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, yeah, I mean, I just think of it.
23:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but we can build a accomplishment.
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fair point.
23:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be a short down the road.
23:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this conversation.
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have time for today, but I love this conversation.
23:45
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
23:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So who's next?
23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, next, I think it's me who's next.
23:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And I will go to what I consider another visionary film, which is Thor Ragnarok.
23:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Thor Ragnarok can only be made by Taco White TD.
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It has its own sense of humor, its own sense of style.
24:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I liked Thor up to this point, but this is where Thor got figured out in a way that was fantastic.
24:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So Thor Ragnarok is on my
24:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I 100% agree with you, what an unusual take on Thor that we hadn't seen from the previous two films and completely saved the character for a lot of fans.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I like the first two movies, I don't think they're that great, but I like them.
24:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a couple of them are in the middling section.
24:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think this is the film that maybe, yeah, I think this is the film that like absolutely goes next level and with the character delivers on the promise and great humor.
24:41
[SPEAKER_00]: While also telling a really pointed story about a son realizing how the mistakes of his father coming through his first born child and him coming to terms with that, but also coming
24:56
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, there's so much that explored in Ragnarot, besides the humor.
25:00
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a really sound emotional story being told that's great in Ragnarot.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So the next one I will throw in is I would go with Stephen other visionary filmmaker and film and that's black Panther to me black Panther is in the great movies still the only marvel movie to be nominated for best picture Ryan Couglar just won two Oscars or a bunch of lashes for his films first film from from film centers and so this is a visionary filmmaker and I think black Panther much more than Wakanda forever black Panther is a great
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Expression of a visionary filmmaker and a fantastic film.
25:38
[SPEAKER_01]: you will get no argument whatsoever for me.
25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's why, you know, that's like, and it's funny, like, there's one that I'm, I think is gonna get on the great list that we'll see if it gets there.
25:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't fit my category, but this is this thing of like, you have type of ITD.
25:54
[SPEAKER_01]: You have James One, these are people who came in with a vision who said, I can take your superhero movie and I can do something and say something that I wanna say with it.
26:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And Black Panther,
26:05
[SPEAKER_01]: is, you know, it's one of those movies that I think earns the hype that was around it at the time.
26:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
26:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was such a big moment when that movie came out.
26:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it absolutely deserves it.
26:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I've rewatched it, I like it just as much every time.
26:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Agreed.
26:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Agreed.
26:22
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
26:22
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the, what's your next one?
26:25
[SPEAKER_01]: My next one is is a very different.
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in a very, very different place.
26:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, but my next one is Spider-Man No Way Home.
26:32
[SPEAKER_01]: That is on my list of, I was, well, I was wondering if you were going to put it on there.
26:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So yes, I agree.
26:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Spider-Man No Way Home.
26:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is, well, this is the thing is like I really think that mostly we can agree on great.
26:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we'll disagree on one or two.
26:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And mostly, we'll probably agree on ugly, but it's the middle that it'll be interesting.
26:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Spider-Man, no way home, is both a really, really good movie.
26:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And had all sorts of, you know, behind the scenes and geek news and stuff that people got extra thrilled.
27:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And it came right into the pandemic.
27:03
[SPEAKER_01]: When sometimes a movie hits at the right time, you know, we're just, yeah, we don't need a movie that felt like this.
27:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's deeply emotional.
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the plot, I won't say the plot doesn't make much sense.
27:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there, there's some things in the plot that are kind of like, wait, what's going on and which universe is, why is this happening?
27:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't matter at all because A, just the Tom Holland Spider-Man story is great and then you get to have your two Spider-Man's that we love come back and have completely satisfying arcs and even have great satisfying arcs for villains who didn't get good arcs, I mean, the amount of things it's delivering on for us is amazing.
27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Agreed.
27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: When I looked at it, I was like, no, it belongs in the great list.
27:47
[SPEAKER_00]: The level of difficulty, as we, you were mentioned with Infinity War in-game, to bring three Spider-Man together, from two franchises that went, that went to funk in essence.
27:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've been into this very interesting story about what's going on with this Spider-Man who is having to deal with the Uncle Ben situation finally in his film and how the these Spider-Man come together to guide him and nurture him and teach him about becoming Spider-Man that they've all gone through this stuff and how it all works and then the sacrifice he makes
28:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So that, you know, everyone can function in their lives and not be in danger.
28:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So he makes the ultimate decision by the end, the ultimate heroic decision by the end in order to save his friends.
28:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And we'll see how much of that they untangle or change when we see the next of a brand new day.
28:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is a fantastic, and the usage of Dr.
28:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Strange works really well.
28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And the journey that Tom Holland goes on as an actor, I think, also by the end of the movie.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just phenomenal that that's seen between him and goblin at the end.
28:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So, uh, okay.
28:54
[SPEAKER_00]: The great one.
28:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I have only one more left on my list of the great ones.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about them all up until Captain America Civil War.
29:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I put Civil War in the great one because to make Civil War work from the comics, to the screen and be as effective as they were.
29:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are so many great moments
29:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I absolutely love it.
29:17
[SPEAKER_00]: The introduction of PD, the stuff that goes on with Vision and Scarlet Witch, the stuff that goes on with Iron Man and Tony and then at the end, the battle there and we as an audience, are you team cap or are you team Iron Man?
29:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that all plays out so well and they do a nice job of changing the story to fit their MCU and I think it's a great
29:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I went, I went a little bit back and forth on this because they're parts of it that I don't love, you know, the Baron Zimo thing and I did like the plot stuff about it, I don't care that much, but you know, he killed my mom like that sequence and and the the battle on that at the airport.
29:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a one of the most satisfying battles because again, and this it's funny.
30:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I really should say I think there are two categories for me because there's the artwork category of Black Panther and Thor Ragnarok and Guardians and then there is the deliver on the promise of Marvel category and that civil war infinity war and end game and it 100% delivers on what I want it to deliver, you know, ironically all directed by the Russo brother.
30:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:25
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
30:25
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all mine.
30:26
[SPEAKER_01]: You have no line.
30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
30:29
[SPEAKER_00]: These are the great.
30:30
[SPEAKER_00]: These are the great films.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: We've locked it down.
30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't ranked them.
30:33
[SPEAKER_00]: That may be down the road, but for now, those are the ones that we put in the great pile.
30:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So should we move to the ugly pile?
30:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So that kind of knock out both of the things we should move to the ugly pile.
30:45
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
30:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I did or no, you just did the last one.
30:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's my turn now.
30:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure.
30:50
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
30:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
30:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go with the one that I like the least.
30:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's it journals.
30:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't, I couldn't, I mean, like, it took me four nights, many cocktails, and we can blame the cocktails on this.
31:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But there were moments where I was like, I have no fucking idea what's going on.
31:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe, maybe it was the cocktails.
31:11
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think so because I kept going, like, wait, what is Angelina Jolie want?
31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And where are they trying to go?
31:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And was this person good or bad or were they good in the theater?
31:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they bad and became good?
31:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I just kept trying,
31:26
[SPEAKER_01]: and was board like to be confused in board yeah it's it looks gorgeous and I like many of the actors and I the designs are cool do not like that movie.
31:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I have watched it three times on cheeses in an effort to try to like the movie because the thing that I discovered when we did the MCU rewatch, the lady in outline, the the outline I, is that I was like, well, some of these films, I think I was a little harsher on, then I remember being now, maybe because I've got an older and I've gotten softer, which some of you may not believe.
31:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I've gotten softer and I'm like, a little more space with, so with the turnals, after
32:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And then earlier this year I watched it because I want to do video essays and so this is a film that I rewatched and I'm like I want to break this thing down and say why it doesn't work and be fair to it as opposed to just being a terrible you know and so I but it doesn't work it really doesn't there are moments but to me there's there's casting issues.
32:26
[SPEAKER_00]: To me, the idea of all of these characters being thrust into that we have no idea who they are and you don't do a good job of really laying down the groundwork for each of these characters really give them through lines that make sense and some of the scenes are played safe as opposed to bold and interesting and I'm just really surprised.
32:45
[SPEAKER_00]: that Chloe's out did this and I think it's also an element of the executives coming in because if you watch HamNet, one of the best films arguably my favorite film of last year, she is an incredible filmmaker who understands how to develop these stories, and develop these characters, and see their progression as characters.
33:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was missing throughout the journals.
33:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt nothing like nothing through the whole movie and that is surprising to me.
33:12
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I say.
33:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't figure out what a character wants or is trying to do.
33:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really hard for me to feel anything for them.
33:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, great.
33:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a bit soulless, which is really hard to say about a Marvel film.
33:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And a Chloe Schaufen, which is super cool.
33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I will contour.
33:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, let's say the controversy.
33:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say, no, you know what's good.
33:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm leaning into it.
33:32
[SPEAKER_00]: My other ugly one is the multiverse of madness.
33:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I.
33:36
[SPEAKER_01]: agree.
33:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's a fucking show.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so bad that movie.
33:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I just I don't understand why people love it.
33:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand how it made almost a billion dollars.
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a film that just has so many mistakes in it.
33:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And the Dutch angles like there's just so much of the same raveniness that destroyed that film.
33:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just don't like it and never have Steve.
33:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I, I really hate, we went into an era, which I think we're now moving out of, where someone, so when I was a kid, and there was something called crisis on infinite earths, which was, yeah, 1980s, DC comic thing, and what it was was at that time, there was earth one, and there was earth two, and there was prime, and there was all these other earths, and there was, you know, there was gold-nage characters, and then there was,
34:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's clean it all up, and so the purpose of crisis on infinitors was to get rid of the multiverse to have one universe and then it ended up being a really big hit and then Marvel next did secret wars, you know, where we get it in this thing and then this idea came along that people really like multiverses as opposed to multiverses are messes created by continuity that those 50, 60, 70 years.
34:53
[SPEAKER_01]: quadruple down on the fucking multiverse and it's like and we've lived in that world for a while and it's like I don't want seven versions of this character.
35:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want I actually want to tell a story that has a beginning middle and then about a character going through something and so A it was super confusing B it's trying to introduce all these other characters C it's trying to do fan service for Patrick Stewart and for all those things that they threw in there none of which worked at all because it just felt thrown in and C they
35:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what they built this amazing character they had this incredible actor playing this character and then they just went Oh, she's crazy and evil and it was just was like, you know, yeah, not a good movie and repeating the same things We just saw one of it exactly.
35:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah All right, what's your next one?
35:41
[SPEAKER_01]: My next one is a movie I genuinely really wanted to like and and thought about putting it in mid lane and I just can't really get behind at that much and that is Captain Marvel
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
35:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to like, yeah, I put it in my middling list because I, I, you know, I can watch it.
36:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm surprised when I read did the rewatch that I found myself Wednesday.
36:08
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the last time you saw it?
36:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's been a while.
36:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a while.
36:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and actually, if you, if it might work on it in the midway, because it was what I was baiting, and you know, part of it is is that and maybe maybe I'll just cheat a little bit because I think it was tainted a little bit by marvels, you know, oh, yeah, yeah, good point.
36:27
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you want to.
36:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so I will definitely put marbles in in the ugly.
36:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the marvels is that talk about a shit show.
36:34
[SPEAKER_00]: The marvels is an utter shit show and it's a shame.
36:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just shame that these two women of color came into direct these movies.
36:43
[SPEAKER_00]: and it just did not work.
36:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It just did not work out, and it's such a shame, because we've seen Ryan Kugler, we've seen a destined Daniel Creighton come in as men of color and really knock it out of park with their movies, but these two films, it just marvels and internals, just utter shit shows from beginning to end, and it's a shame.
37:06
[SPEAKER_00]: to see that because I think I think there was potential here and it just kind of all fell away.
37:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a bad villain.
37:14
[SPEAKER_00]: The three girls are, well, the three, sorry, when the three actresses are together, they're great.
37:19
[SPEAKER_00]: There's great chemistry there.
37:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Just the dialogue isn't that strong.
37:23
[SPEAKER_00]: The storyline isn't that great.
37:24
[SPEAKER_00]: The subplots with each of them and the dancing planet.
37:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
37:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So there was just so much about it.
37:29
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, what is happening?
37:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's weird about that movie to me is that I felt like when I was watching it I could see the movie they had intended to make and didn't make and I couldn't reconstruct it now because there's a while ago that I saw it but what I remember was like oh this character
37:46
[SPEAKER_01]: is doesn't trust anybody in this character is pushing people when this character needs a fit.
37:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I could see that they created the, and I don't remember what they were, but they created their flaws.
37:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So perfectly, that they were the solution to each other's character flaws.
38:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was really a perfect setup for the kind of,
38:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy movie where you start with people in conflicts that come from very very different places and then they become a family it I could see that there were actually the bones for that were there and I really like those actors I really like the the characters and then it was like.
38:22
[SPEAKER_01]: in the editing room or script provisions, they just cut out the soul of the movie and through a bunch of stuff into have more action or more jokes or more whatever.
38:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I really think there was a skeleton there.
38:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I bet there was a script that was a good script, but that is not a good movie.
38:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
38:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the ice comics is the Marvel's felt like Star Trek next generation season one.
38:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not, you're not wrong.
38:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, okay, so you have more so we've got Marvel's multiverse of madness and internals in there.
38:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
38:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to throw a film that I was surprised in the end to throw in and I watched a little bit of it just to kind of make my it's just make my decision here, but I got to throw in.
39:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to know in Brave New World, I was on the fence about it.
39:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't sure about it, then I watched it again, and I was like, you know what, as much as I enjoyed it in the theater, I do think this film is just an utter Frankenstein of a movie and just not a good film in the end, and there's so much as you were just mentioning about, you could see that there was a better movie there in the Marvels, either was such a better movie here in Brave New World, if they had just
39:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Gone with the original vision of leaning into what it's like to be a black superhero in America.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But all the anti-DI and all this anti-woke bullshit killed it, they overthought it, they tried to go safe with it.
39:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just is an utter Frankenstein movie.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It becomes a red halt movie when it's called Captain America Brave New World.
39:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the biggest mistake of the film overall.
39:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't hesitate for a second to put it on the ugly list, sadly, I wanted to be great.
39:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I honestly think we can say that it's because of, you know, DEI and political things, but I think they, I think they chickened out when they did Falcon in the Winter Soldier.
40:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Like yeah, I think they did not, they had set up that was what that series was about and they really didn't do it and I think that's an amazing idea to talk about that that that that is hugely dramatic and interesting and again watching Brave New World
40:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm literally going like, so this is the story, like this is what we're doing.
40:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You spent, I mean, it just so, and when you get to the big fight scene with Red Hulk, I so don't care, you think about, and I love, again, this is, I think I'll say this pretty much about every one of these.
40:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I like all the actors.
40:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I like the characters.
40:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Sam is a great, the Sam that you meet in Captain America, the Winter Soldier is an, this veteran, friendly, strong sense of humor, deeply wise person, and then he disappears.
41:01
[SPEAKER_01]: For also, and we don't really see him, and we certainly don't see that character for me in Brave New World.
41:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he really properly.
41:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Great, that's great.
41:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, all right, do you have any more in the ugly.
41:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I've one more.
41:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any more?
41:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I have two more.
41:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
41:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
41:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like Robin Thunder.
41:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
41:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a good all love it's not there.
41:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I have it in my middling, but I was debating about it.
41:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
41:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
41:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're saying that a great Christian bail performance is really ugly.
41:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
41:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what again, there's it's I don't think I'm going to say something.
41:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You're really going to like because on some level, I'm going to say these lists cannot be objective.
41:46
[SPEAKER_01]: These are always subjected.
41:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
41:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the thing about I think I believe that if Thor Ragnarok had never existed, Thor love and thunder would be middling.
41:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's a fair point.
42:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fair point in comparison.
42:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
42:02
[SPEAKER_01]: My expectation coming into Love and Thunder was like here.
42:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
42:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm so excited.
42:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you think like there's the great episode of the Simpsons where they go to Camp Crusty and Crusty never shows up or they're all freezing.
42:14
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll go, Crusty will come.
42:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Some day Crusty will come and I remember watching Love and Thunder is like, OK, it's going to be good.
42:20
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's going to be, oh, that was kind of funny.
42:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's kind of, uh, and then there's this certain point where you're like, uh, no, this is not working for me.
42:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a shame.
42:30
[SPEAKER_00]: There was so much that they could have gotten right here.
42:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you have the Jane Foster Cancer storyline and the gore, the guy butcher stuff.
42:37
[SPEAKER_00]: There was really poignant emotional rain that they were exploring here.
42:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is such a shock that Tika who did such a good job with it and Thor Ragnarok.
42:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, when you strip away the jokes, there is a really poignant commentary about fathers and sons and daughters and daughters.
42:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I pass in and being forgiven and taking the mantle to be the leader, like there's so much, why was that missing here in this movie, I agree, just wasn't strong enough with the Jane Foster stuff or the gore and even his child, like taking over a gore's child, like to essentially be the stepfather of the new father, it just, you know, there's just isn't that power to it, they we like I think there's still some fun jokes.
43:23
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
43:24
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
43:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing I know what your last one is, but who knows?
43:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you have it?
43:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be.
43:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's Iron Man 2.
43:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my other one.
43:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, interesting.
43:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I have Iron Man 2 and Middling.
43:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
43:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I have another one that's still in which is, which is quantumania.
43:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I will fight to the death the defend quantumania.
43:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I am one of those rare people that like that movie and as Steve said at the time, when he came on here, these are these are our lists and they're going to be subjective and I cannot explain to you why quantum media works for me, but it does and it does and I put it in the middle in category because I don't think it 100% gets there, but I find that I have a wonderful time.
44:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is probably a guilty pleasure movie, like a million ways to die in the West or Hudson Hawk like I know objectively people are like I get what your points of views and why you don't like the movie that is not going but for me I do like however I know that a lot of people feel that it's an ugly film so I can move it in no no no no I actually think it should go in middling I'm thinking about it and this is the what's the difference here is that in the difference between
44:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, like let's say brave new world or marvels or multiverse of madness, there's really not much there that I can say that I really like and I'm not even really enjoy like Chris Hemsworth, one of the most charming actors you could possibly You're very charming.
44:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not find him that charming because he's trying too hard to be charming.
44:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I think in love and thunder.
44:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas in quantum mania, even though I don't think the movie works, I don't think it makes sense.
45:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that it doesn't move me in any way.
45:07
[SPEAKER_01]: What's his name?
45:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's name just went out of my head?
45:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Paul Rudd is still super charming.
45:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And the rest of the cast is charmingly walking through this movie.
45:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think works.
45:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And that to me does make me go, no, I think it should be in middling.
45:22
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not a shit show.
45:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a movie that doesn't work great, but I wouldn't throw it out of bed.
45:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd watch it on an airplane.
45:33
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, also, then I'll move Iron Man 2 into Midlink and we're talking about Iron Man 2 is there are, I don't think it's, I think it is perfect.
45:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, should we talk about it now?
45:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's be honest.
45:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you say for Midlink or do you want to go into it now?
45:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll say for Midlink.
45:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, because we, I got to run a tight ship.
45:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I got a tight day today.
45:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Good movies, midlink, do you want to go to good movies now?
46:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Shall we break down our good movies and then moving to the next one?
46:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, but I could feel I could feel it's going to get harder now.
46:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we've agreed on a lot of stuff up to this point.
46:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the first two sets of the workout were doing all right.
46:13
[SPEAKER_01]: In the third set.
46:17
[SPEAKER_01]: My turn to your turn.
46:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think go ahead, man.
46:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead, yeah.
46:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So good.
46:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to start off with.
46:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Iron Man, the first Iron Man, and I'll say what I've said this now, probably many, many times on the cinephiles, which is my real feeling about Iron Man is that it is a B, maybe B plus movie, barely, with an A plus unbelievable charismatic performance from Robert Danny Jr.
46:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I think when you actually just kind of remove Robert Downey Jr. for the movie and just think about the story and the special effects and what happens and all it's fine, it would be middling, you know, but Robert Downey Jr. is so great is electrifying every moment he's on screen and that moves it up for me to good.
46:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with you.
47:00
[SPEAKER_00]: 100% he is the reason to watch it.
47:01
[SPEAKER_00]: He is literally atlas holding up the MCU.
47:05
[SPEAKER_00]: This is him taking the opposition in that movie.
47:08
[SPEAKER_00]: We would not have the MCU without that arm and movie.
47:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care what anybody says.
47:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So I agree with you.
47:13
[SPEAKER_00]: 100%.
47:14
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so then I will go phase one, staying in phase one, I will say Captain America, the first adventure is a good movie.
47:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this movie.
47:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember Shannon and I saw it at the Comic Con.
47:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a secret screening.
47:27
[SPEAKER_00]: There was 10 people in the theater because people didn't seem to be that interested in it and we loved it.
47:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yes, there are third act issues with the film.
47:36
[SPEAKER_00]: but not enough to overcome the greatness of the performance of Chris Evans, Haley Atwell, and even Hugo Weaving at times in the movie and the introduction of Hydra and the red skull and all that, and Tom of the Jones.
47:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so much to enjoy along with Stanley Tucci and his performance and of course, Sebastian Stan.
47:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So to me, it is a very special place in my heart, Captain America, the first adventure.
47:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's funny.
47:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I've ever said this theory to you, but I think there is a connection between the movies dirty dozen Stripes and now I'm going to add to it that I hadn't thought about before of Captain America first of venture which Stripes and dirty dozen act one is fantastic when you're training when you're sort of learning the characters and all that stuff
48:19
[SPEAKER_01]: in both of those movies act too when you're in the war games sort of section is fun and really good and actually in both dirty dozen and is kind of when we're actually on the mission is actually less good than than the beginning.
48:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the same is true of Captain America first adventure.
48:35
[SPEAKER_01]: When we meet Steve, it is great.
48:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and when the first comes becomes Captain America, it's really good.
48:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when we get to the final mission against Hydra,
48:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's fine, you know, like it does what it needs to do, but it doesn't live up to act one in any way, but it's good.
48:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not enough to capsize the movie, which is what you want in the end.
48:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You still walk what you feel good.
48:57
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, what's your next one?
48:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, this is actually where this whole conversation started because the movie I was watching was Dr.
49:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange.
49:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, Dr.
49:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange is so solid.
49:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it is absolutely not a great movie.
49:13
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
49:14
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not a moment that we'd think of saying this is a great movie.
49:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But I totally will watch it again.
49:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they nailed the character.
49:21
[SPEAKER_01]: They understand the tone.
49:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that the buildup of the bad guys, the mystery with the ancient one.
49:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think all that stuff is working really, really well and the cool and they understand like what they need to do with this kind of asshole arrogant guy as your main character and what that is the journey he goes on is perfectly
49:44
[SPEAKER_00]: When Dr.
49:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Strange came out, and I grew with you a hundred percent, Dr.
49:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Strange came out.
49:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I was surprised to see some critics not liking the movie or fashion the movie, so in my small active defiance, I went and saw the film three times paid full price for the ticket to show my appreciation for the film because this film is really one of the gems of the MCU of my opinion.
50:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I love combations.
50:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Love it.
50:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, is American accent gets better as he gets in the MCU later on, but I like what it's saying about the arrogance of this
50:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Guy, and what he has to go through, and how he has to, you know, in a sense, as genuflect before some to humble himself, before this, before he can achieve true greatness.
50:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But what is possible if you humble yourself, if you get rid of these,
50:32
[SPEAKER_00]: perceptions that you put out in the world because your arrogance is always born from a place of insecurity.
50:37
[SPEAKER_00]: We, how do you deconstruct that to find out what's really going on and see what it's like to care about people and connect with people and I think it's great throughout the movie and to see the what happens with, um, uh, I get, uh, Chowento Agia Force character by the end of the movie and how he turns because of what happens with the chosen one.
50:54
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's amazing.
50:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So to me, there's so much to enjoy.
50:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And even the sequence with Rachel McAdams and the hospital when they're fighting on the spiritual plane, just a great great action stuff.
51:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Over, do I wish she'd had more to do in the film?
51:07
[SPEAKER_00]: 1 million percent do I think she's one of the most underused characters in the MCU, 1 million sections of great actors.
51:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that is a negative, but overall, I love the way I feel coming out of Dr.
51:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Strange.
51:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm missed.
51:19
[SPEAKER_00]: That Scott Derrick said did again a chance to do multiverse of madness, and we got stuck with Sam Rain.
51:23
[SPEAKER_00]: because I think he almost killed it.
51:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I never know where to put the blame.
51:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Sam Raimi, Sam Raimi is Sam Raimi.
51:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I'd like Sam Raimi to move in movies, sometimes I'd like them left.
51:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But to me, it's Dr.
51:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange, multi-versa madness is barely a Dr.
51:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange story.
51:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, yeah, it's all over the place.
51:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know?
51:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So then, my, my opinion is, uh, it man.
51:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it man is such a good movie.
51:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, almost great.
51:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so good that it's almost great, but it's so good.
51:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like almost.
51:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know pretty good, like good, pretty good, you know, it's so much fun.
52:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Paul Rudd is so good in here, Michael Douglas, I eventually in Lily and Michael Payne, who is quietly the star of the film, good.
52:09
[SPEAKER_00]: The thing that keeps it from being great is the Corey stole bubble or yellow jacket story.
52:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, damn it.
52:15
[SPEAKER_00]: The Corey is a damn good actor, but it just doesn't work.
52:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's funny.
52:20
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole origins of this conversation is when I was going, what's the, what's the most solid of the good?
52:25
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the top of the good?
52:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And these, the last two movies are my example, which is Dr.
52:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Strange and Antman.
52:31
[SPEAKER_01]: They're, they are not great films, but man, Antman is a joy to watch.
52:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And boy, they get their relationships just right and advance the characters perfectly.
52:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's perfectly cast.
52:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree to the only weeks is the bad guy.
52:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember when we did the podcast, there was just so many times like.
52:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you doing this?
52:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you doing that?
52:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just being a bad guy.
52:51
[SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't make any sense at all.
52:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But putting that aside, it's really fun.
52:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
52:57
[SPEAKER_01]: My next one, I think, when I saw this in one of the comments, it might even have been one of the stream labs or superchats is Shang-Chi, because, and I agree with that comment that I saw, which is this is the most underrated Marvel movie and it is a crime that we have not kept going
53:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
53:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It is absolutely crying that we don't have.
53:20
[SPEAKER_00]: We still waiting on a sequel.
53:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what the logic or the thinking was.
53:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they didn't anticipate it being a great movie.
53:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, and they weren't prepared for it.
53:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Similu has unfortunately taken hits for this because it has not been a sequel.
53:36
[SPEAKER_00]: He should have, he should be such a mainstay in the MC.
53:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We should have seen him pop up in a number of things by now.
53:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's so great in the film.
53:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And what we get from him and, um, oh, god, what's her name?
53:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I forget the actress's name, uh, Alcofina.
53:49
[SPEAKER_00]: What we get from them in their chemistry, so much fun.
53:51
[SPEAKER_00]: That bus chase scene is absolutely incredible, um, and bringing in Territz, uh, to have him be a part of the film as well.
54:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And that back and forth with him.
54:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Sean Cheese, it's figuring out how to be an actor and I'm sorry, how to be a hero and all of that goes on.
54:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And the stuff with his dad, 10 rings, like there's just so much.
54:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, the end battle gets a little CGI.
54:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I get that.
54:13
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I can forgive it in black Panther, I can fucking forgive it here.
54:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Sean, she is just an excellent.
54:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so fun to rewatch that movie in such a fun movie.
54:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, absolutely deserved much better than it's gotten from.
54:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Disney and Viking, but by the way, apropos of nothing, I have a new idea for a cinephile short for people who want to come to patreon.com slash the cinephiles, which is clips that you regularly rewatch on YouTube.
54:39
[SPEAKER_01]: One of mine in us fighting Shanchi.
54:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it is a perfectly constructed fight scene.
54:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not only great choreography, it's not only thrilling and exciting, but it has an actual story going on as she realizes what this person she thought she knew is
54:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's great.
54:56
[SPEAKER_01]: 100%.
54:57
[SPEAKER_00]: 100%.
54:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so then I will move on to Avengers.
55:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Avengers is a good movie.
55:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think the dialogue is dated.
55:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think some of the stuff that goes on in the film is a little uncomfortable.
55:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And you remember the Joss, we've made the film.
55:14
[SPEAKER_00]: But you can't deny the fact that bringing all of these characters together, people forget how insane the idea was.
55:21
[SPEAKER_00]: The fact that he pulled it off so effectively deserves all kinds of credit.
55:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And we get by the end of the film, some great scenes with them together.
55:29
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a film where the end battle scene
55:31
[SPEAKER_00]: does work, and the beats of it are so well done.
55:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And then coming together as a team is so great.
55:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, Avengers.
55:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it definitely deserves being there.
55:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It has drifted lower.
55:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the Avengers has dropped down more in my imagination than any other movie in the MCU.
55:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Just kind of consistently, I don't think it's bad.
55:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a good movie.
55:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's almost like the opposite thing that I said about a Ragnorok to Love and Thunder, which is that in the context, Love and Thunder becomes worse.
56:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Avengers is so important.
56:06
[SPEAKER_01]: It has to be and the good.
56:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like that's where it should be.
56:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It is extremely important to them.
56:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So you it's extremely important to film and it is good, you know, yeah, it is.
56:17
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, what's your, what's your, what's your next one?
56:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what do I go.
56:21
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I won't say here.
56:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I'm going to go with Spider-Man homecoming.
56:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
56:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
56:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my, let's make you.
56:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought about middling because I think.
56:32
[SPEAKER_01]: There are, to me, a few things in this that are great.
56:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And the rest of you are totally fine.
56:39
[SPEAKER_01]: The first of all, Tom Holland is Spider-Man is great.
56:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that he's just like the casting is perfect and he's wonderful to watch.
56:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoy him every minute.
56:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the moment of the reveal with Michael Keaton is one of the great, great moments of all.
56:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's so cool.
57:00
[SPEAKER_01]: overshadows the whole movie because it is so dramatic and so that it that it elevates the movie.
57:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I might have put it in middling if that moment wasn't in the film.
57:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do like it.
57:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I totally, totally like it.
57:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It delivers, but I don't, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, they're in DC and he's we're at the, I don't really care that much about all the action sequences so much.
57:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I really, really like the relationships and I love, I mean, he's such a good bad guy and he's so good.
57:25
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
57:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree.
57:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I, it's in the good movies, but that one has dropped down as the years have gone on.
57:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree, because the, the, the key and stuff is very well introduced and there are good moments with him and Keaton or Keaton on his own, but the stuff with this crew is so like, uh, it just doesn't have that kind of, uh, that you want to see, uh, but what you get to by the end with Spider-Man, I think is fantastic and what he does and the stuff with him and happy and
57:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And even the stuff with within day and the other MJ, like I think it's so good the the joy you get and Holland's performance.
58:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like Iron Man like there are some issues, but in the air, it's Holland's performance that makes you like excited to see what's next.
58:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And it delivers where it needs to deliver, you know, deliver across the board.
58:13
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, side note is happy like the biggest jerk in the MCU.
58:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I rewatch home coming recently.
58:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's just terrible.
58:21
[SPEAKER_01]: He's dismissive.
58:22
[SPEAKER_01]: He's rude.
58:22
[SPEAKER_01]: He's arrogant.
58:23
[SPEAKER_01]: He's all sorts of terrible things.
58:25
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a lung head.
58:26
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a lung head.
58:27
[SPEAKER_00]: For sure.
58:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, what's your, uh, was that you, or did I, yeah, you did that.
58:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
58:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So then mine, I would go to, oh, guardians of the galaxy for you, too.
58:37
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a good, you'll be surprised how much we're going to agree on this.
58:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
58:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
58:41
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
58:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's a good movie, I do think it's not a great movie because I think the ego stuff gets a little kind of muddled as you get to that point.
58:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the jokes don't 100% land and separating the team out.
58:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I did mind it.
58:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I just didn't think the storyline separately were as strong as they could have been together.
59:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that keeps it from being a great film.
59:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But overall, I love the progression of the characters.
59:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the introduction of Mantis.
59:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Star Lord realizes that his father killed his mother, sweet Mary mother of God, the reaction of Chris Brad is amazing.
59:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, the Yondu moment at the end, which wrecks me every time.
59:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it's such a good to me.
59:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one where it does deserve to be there, but it's also has gone down a little bit in my estimation when I re-watched it fairly recently.
59:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's sort of like
59:38
[SPEAKER_01]: is the whole really as good as the sum of the parts.
59:42
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all the parts are really, really good.
59:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think it definitely deserves to be on in our good list.
59:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I have one more in my good list.
59:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, I know, I know I have four more.
59:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, this is going to be interesting.
59:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I go ahead.
59:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is, well, as I said, it's the middling to the good that I really, really went back and forth.
1:00:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So you'll persuade me on a few of them.
1:00:04
[SPEAKER_01]: But my last one of the good list is Deadpool and Wolverine.
1:00:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's all my list of the good list.
1:00:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
1:00:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is this is one where I really think it's it's really about the sum of the parts like what the story is about Deadpool and multi versus and has to get a Wolverine and who he's I it doesn't even matter what matters is when Hugh Jack is walking in shirtless to what's the Madonna song is it like a prayer.
1:00:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like a prayer.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_01]: That moment is one of the greatest moments in cinema.
1:00:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, yeah, the movie is sort of all over the place, but it's the all over the place that is charming and enjoyable and super fun.
1:00:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
1:00:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's not the strongest ed pool movie as people will hear me say on part one of our discussion of Deadpool, but I think it's a, but I think it's such a fun watch and enjoyable.
1:00:51
[SPEAKER_00]: If you just kind of don't worry about the plot, which really doesn't hold together strongly, especially when the TVA gets involved, even more so you just kind of go, but like in the end, and especially because like even the stuff with Emma Coran as great as she's presented, they kind of deal with it pretty simply by the end of the movie and it isn't it doesn't carry that like,
1:01:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, how does that overall affect that residue that hang over of having gone toe to toe with her, which I think the film could have benefited from, but yes, it's it's a very good film and it's a good film and it's a good film and it's fun to rewatch for sure.
1:01:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
1:01:25
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so let's see end of all yours.
1:01:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we have, I mean, like I said, there are, I'm curious which ones are going to come up and if they're one of the ones I was on.
1:01:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's about a garden's of the galaxy volume three.
1:01:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is a good movie.
1:01:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I was very, it's just definitely when I was on the fence about go ahead, okay, yeah, I mean, I just think the way they explore Rockets backstory is so powerful in that movie and I know that's a word I overuse sometimes, but it really is like the exploration you see the backstory of what goes on within with the high executioner in the way he's.
1:01:59
[SPEAKER_00]: treated and the connection with the other the other animals that are there what goes on with them and then when he comes back what that reaction is like as well.
1:02:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think the animal lock stuff is the stuff where I think there's issues with the movie it's not as strong as I would like it to be and I but I do like the journey to go on this is the final horror of this whole crew and by the end where we get to with him and his grandfather I thought was very touching.
1:02:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and the stuff he explores with, uh, with Nebula with Gamora, all of the stuff and that slow motion fight sequence with the needle drop.
1:02:31
[SPEAKER_00]: That is just stellar stellar filmmaking from James Gunn.
1:02:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So I like guarding this galaxy.
1:02:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's some people haven't like in the great category.
1:02:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's in the great category, but I do think it's in the damn good category.
1:02:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's my, you remember when we did love actually on the podcast and art, what we did was to break it into nine or whatever short films.
1:02:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.
1:02:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if the rocket story was its own movie, not only would it be absolutely in the good category, it would be great category.
1:03:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, I mean, I was lobbying, but the rest of the movie, I, the grandfather thing and I didn't, I wasn't tracking it all like I just wasn't always doing a free visually amazing, you know, like look great, great music, obviously not surprising, but I just is every time it was the rocket story, I was 100% in.
1:03:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm totally fine moving it up to good.
1:03:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I was, this is when I went back and forth like five times.
1:03:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but the sort of thing is, look, these are very serious decisions.
1:03:34
[SPEAKER_01]: One doesn't just rush into something like, I mean, this is important stuff.
1:03:39
[SPEAKER_01]: One does not simply walk into voice, so it's all on you because you have a couple more, I think.
1:03:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
1:03:47
[SPEAKER_00]: The other two good ones I have, I'll just have them back to back.
1:03:50
[SPEAKER_00]: They are the most recent, some of the most recent ones.
1:03:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Thunderbolts and fantastic for first steps.
1:03:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I think those both are good movies.
1:03:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we don't.
1:03:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are the two, those are the other two that I was going back and forth about.
1:04:01
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
1:04:02
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
1:04:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
1:04:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We can lock those down.
1:04:04
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to go either.
1:04:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the mental health store lines great, but doesn't 100% get there strongly as I would like it to be.
1:04:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it had the potential to be great, but it didn't 100% get there.
1:04:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And fantastic for first steps, damn good movie, but there are there are things with the galactic issues like wait.
1:04:19
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the logic here?
1:04:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And it kind of falls apart near the end.
1:04:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the issue there, but sure.
1:04:23
[SPEAKER_01]: with those two movies, I've only seen each of them once, and I think those two movies, it was sort of I was like, well, how much are they really sticking with me?
1:04:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I think with fantastic fort and wine-wise and world-building-wise, it's awesome.
1:04:36
[SPEAKER_01]: love the actors like I think they did a great job with the characters it just seemed like it was trying to do way too much in a short space of time and didn't 100% deliver it to me.
1:04:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But I totally enjoyed it.
1:04:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Thunderbolts is almost like the opposite where it's kind of like in real delivered in terms of these characters coming together.
1:04:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I didn't find myself going I can't wait for the next adventure of them being the new Avengers or anything like that.
1:05:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I never I never really felt that way, but I did enjoy the ride.
1:05:06
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I sort of kind of was more on middling, but I'm happy to have it.
1:05:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:05:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that means the the films that are left.
1:05:14
[SPEAKER_00]: We agree on them as maybe it seems like.
1:05:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:05:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
1:05:18
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
1:05:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you want to do this?
1:05:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And while you do this, I'm going to use the restaurant real quick Steve.
1:05:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you want to do this?
1:05:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I will hear you.
1:05:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So please go ahead.
1:05:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It's only fair that I have some time on my own.
1:05:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think what interesting about this category here because these are the some ones we have left.
1:05:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Thor, the incredible Hulk Iron Man 2, Thor Dark World, Avengers Age of Ultron, Ant-Man in the Walls, or from Home, Black Widow, and Wakanda forever.
1:05:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So first of all, what's interesting is more than half of these are sequels, which I find to be a very interesting point.
1:05:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Thor was a movie that I liked a lot when I saw it in the theater in the sense of
1:05:54
[SPEAKER_01]: You used to get comic books in a little bag every week you'd show up at the comic store and they'd have your things and you'd read the latest story of a particular character.
1:06:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And they weren't all great, but you wanted to keep up.
1:06:06
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the level that Thor was for me, which is a perfectly enjoyable comic book.
1:06:11
[SPEAKER_01]: when you get to Thor the Dark World, I think it really falls apart.
1:06:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And I still like the character, but it doesn't work as well.
1:06:17
[SPEAKER_01]: The incredible Hulk has lots of good ideas.
1:06:20
[SPEAKER_01]: By the time you get to the final sequence, it is exactly what this category is, which is that it is middling, you know?
1:06:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It is fine.
1:06:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't not watch it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to watch it.
1:06:32
[SPEAKER_01]: The same thing with the Ant-Man in the Wasp is very similar to how I feel about
1:06:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Thor, the Dark World, or really Iron Man 2 and Iron Man 3 for that matter, which is I like these characters.
1:06:43
[SPEAKER_01]: There's more of the same.
1:06:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of the same world.
1:06:46
[SPEAKER_01]: We're advancing things a little bit, and I'm not getting all that much out of it.
1:06:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, great points for making your Steve.
1:06:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Keep going, please.
1:06:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in black widow, I like, you know, and we're category where it came out in the pandemic.
1:07:03
[SPEAKER_01]: We were all at home.
1:07:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if there had been some hype, it may be if I'd seen it in the theater with an audience rather than buy myself late at night.
1:07:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I might have had a different feeling about it.
1:07:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's, you know, this is why this is the Middling category.
1:07:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Middling is not bad.
1:07:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it's fine.
1:07:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a comic book fan, I'll watch some of these again far from home.
1:07:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the same thing.
1:07:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It honestly, like most of these, I would say all the SQL ones kind of suffer from the same thing, which is, I still like these characters, they're fine, they have some action sequences, they have some ideas, but it's not knocking my socks off in any way.
1:07:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:07:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would say.
1:07:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, the current will halt.
1:07:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So with the current will halt, I agree with a lot of what you said.
1:07:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the end as the film goes on, more gets exposed that you're just like, yeah, this is 100% working for me.
1:07:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not connecting with this stuff.
1:07:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Edward Norton is the wrong choice as well.
1:07:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you can start there.
1:07:56
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not a good,
1:07:58
[SPEAKER_00]: choice for that character and what the character is trying to do because Norton has a natural condescension.
1:08:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not, not saying scientists can't, you know, I'm not saying scientists can't be arrogant, but Banner doesn't have that.
1:08:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And to have that element be there, I think is an issue overall.
1:08:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I do like the, I like the CGI, I like the scene with him and live Tyler on the edge of the cliff there, having that conversation about him being a Hulk and her dealing with that
1:08:23
[SPEAKER_00]: but then you get the same alley it's stuff and it's funny to me.
1:08:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the angley hulk and the incredible hulk, the lutary, the lutary, if you combine them into one movie, you might have gotten a damn good movie, right?
1:08:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think what's his face is William Hertz, Ross is great, which is why they moved him into the MCU.
1:08:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's great stuff, so in the end.
1:08:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Thor is brought out is a great director.
1:08:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Henry the fifth.
1:08:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd like his Hamlet, though it's not 100% the greatest, but I'd like him as a director.
1:08:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But Thor is a fine watch, but it's not magical man.
1:08:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not as powerful as you want it to be.
1:09:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's solid, but there's a lot of issues with it that keep it from being good.
1:09:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's middling, because I've just, I don't ever find myself wanting to put it on again.
1:09:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Iron Man 3 is another one I put in middling because to me there's so much that falls apart once a guy appears comes in and the extremist stuff and then throwing in and then having to move pepper and give for something more to do to me it felt like tacked on and shoved in rather than organic there hadn't been pepper hasn't been going like I need to have powers I need to have powers that wasn't going through the first two movies.
1:09:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So to have it all of a sudden be a thing here and all this, it just as an excuse to give Palatra more to do.
1:09:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It was so transparent that to me, it kind of undercut the film.
1:09:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought Rebecca Hall was a bit of a waste in the movie with the character that they were doing with her and she's a damn good actress.
1:09:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was disappointed by that.
1:09:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, honestly, so Iron Man 3, you know, I said there were these middling ones that could have been good.
1:09:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Iron Man 3 was a middling one that could have been ugly.
1:09:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, it was real great.
1:09:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and Iron Man 2, I think you put it was like, that's close to me to ugly too.
1:10:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but one that's hard to talk about for me that is now in our middling list is Wakanda forever.
1:10:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:10:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's the, here was my experience going to see the movie.
1:10:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Went to see the movie.
1:10:12
[SPEAKER_01]: When that movie opens and it's beautiful.
1:10:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's the funeral.
1:10:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like holy shit.
1:10:18
[SPEAKER_01]: He figured, he did it.
1:10:19
[SPEAKER_01]: He figured out how to do.
1:10:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was sobbing.
1:10:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, this is going to be dealing with the death of the king.
1:10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And how do we deal with the death of the king?
1:10:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And it started sort of in that direction.
1:10:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And then a whole bunch of stuff happened.
1:10:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, like, I could feel when I was watching the movie.
1:10:37
[SPEAKER_01]: My interest kind of just flagging and it's not bad.
1:10:40
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it doesn't do the bad movie There are beautiful moments in it, but it does not hold together as a whole film at all in my opinion I agree even the name more stuff, which I was loving from the trailers is really excited He quietly one of my favorite characters in the Marvel comic books Even the way it was done I wasn't 100% on board with and was confused by how they like they didn't do good job of laying this
1:11:06
[SPEAKER_00]: conflict out between them.
1:11:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's the rare Ryan Coogler film that doesn't 100% work for me.
1:11:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And this was just a problem.
1:11:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So by the end, the final battle, I really just couldn't care.
1:11:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I just was like, okay, whatever.
1:11:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Shoveing in the stuff with Martin Freeman and Julia Louis Dreyfis just did not work at all.
1:11:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But terrible.
1:11:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
1:11:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Iron heart thrown iron hard in.
1:11:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there was a potential for that to work.
1:11:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It just felt like okay we got to spin this off It just felt like it wasn't its own movie like blank Panther was and it had to serve I hate to say this word, but with this movie, but this phrase I had to serve too many masters and it didn't need to It should have just been a streamlined great sequel that dealt with the loss of to Chala and how that affected everybody, right?
1:11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And even the sun stuff at the end I was like, okay, I guess that's a way to continue it, but
1:11:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:11:54
[SPEAKER_00]: The best person, Angela Bassett, and is the best thing of the movie.
1:12:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I do like name more, but again, they stumble with the stuff.
1:12:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I like the casting and the idea, the design, but I mean, there was so much stuff where I was like, you know, and Shuri, I mean, I like her, but I wasn't emotionally involved in that, really, in the way they wanted me, it wanted me be.
1:12:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it wasn't working for me.
1:12:19
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
1:12:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm I put a Thor dark world is another one that I like a lot of Thor dark world, but the elf stuff is just so bad that it really kills
1:12:31
[SPEAKER_00]: a lot of the movie.
1:12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: The stuff with him and his brother and his mom, I think is exceptional.
1:12:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:12:38
[SPEAKER_00]: The stuff with him and Jane and Cat Dennings and Eric being crazy, Stone Scars card.
1:12:43
[SPEAKER_00]: That is actually interesting.
1:12:44
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, who is not a massive scientific brain to me, the science stuff was really interesting to watch how they all played it out and did it and said in the polls.
1:12:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That's cool.
1:12:54
[SPEAKER_00]: But the stuff with the elf is so just a waste, Christopher Aquiston, just a waste in it
1:13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it just keeps it from being a good movie.
1:13:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a middle-ing movie.
1:13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I could watch it, but I'm not doing, you know, clamoring to put it on.
1:13:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I'm trying to see if we can come up with a few grand unified field theories.
1:13:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sure, why these movies got like where they got placed.
1:13:18
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
1:13:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just say I'm not a good scientific brain, and Steve, let's come up with some unified theories and hypotheses.
1:13:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what we can say about movies that are in each of these positions.
1:13:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, you've heard about the great, which is they're either a visionary director who genuinely has something unique they want to say, or it's delivering on the promise of the MCU.
1:13:40
[SPEAKER_01]: That to me is all of the great films come under those two categories.
1:13:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I can agree with that.
1:13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:13:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I think all the ugly films are goddamn mess.
1:13:51
[SPEAKER_01]: like where there's all sorts of stuff they might have been trying to do and you can feel, you sort of can feel the corporate studio involvement and you can deal the notes and you can feel they're trying to do in all of them, they're trying to do too many things and they're trying to deliver things that they think the audience wants, you know, over thinking, over thinking,
1:14:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what's interesting between the good and the middling is it seems to me that in the middling there's mostly two things going on one is they're largely sequels So it's them trying to do more of the same and in in particular the sort of like and now we'll introduce a new villain for our person and they'll I need to advance the stories
1:14:35
[SPEAKER_01]: but it doesn't have any vision in terms of the direction, and none of these stories are really deeply emotional, you know, and with Wakanda forever, you've lost your main character, so that's really hard to do.
1:14:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the other one is the introductions that don't 100% knock it out of the park, like incredible Hulk.
1:14:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Black Widow, Captain Marvel, and Thor, you know, like they are, we're introducing a new character and we're doing an OK job, but we're not knocking out the park.
1:15:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're either the sequels that don't quite deliver or the introduction, don't quite deliver.
1:15:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's those are excellent points.
1:15:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And the thing is, I also think the middling is that feeling of potential lost, like that's the big thing, right?
1:15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: When you're like, oh my god, this could have been, why are you?
1:15:21
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you should have done and you felt that why you're watching the movie.
1:15:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's the thing that when the film, and you felt that more than once or too many times in one of these, in one of these middling MCU films and that's what puts it in the middling category.
1:15:36
[SPEAKER_00]: You feel it.
1:15:37
[SPEAKER_00]: You sense it when you're watching it.
1:15:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Why, all right, it doesn't make sense.
1:15:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Why didn't you do this?
1:15:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, those are the things I think that's essential, too, to make up MCU from Middling is you see the potential wasted or you ask too many questions about why they're doing this and don't like the answer when you see it happen on the screen, you know?
1:15:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think for the for good, it's literally being a good movie is that the yes, characters plot all that stuff hangs together perfectly well.
1:16:05
[SPEAKER_01]: You understand you're emotionally involved.
1:16:08
[SPEAKER_01]: They get the sense of humor and they get the tone right and that and it all works.
1:16:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we knocking it out of the park?
1:16:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Not necessarily.
1:16:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this the vision of a great visionary or is the degree of difficulty super hard not necessarily?
1:16:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But everything we're trying to do we're doing successfully.
1:16:23
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the
1:16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think in the middling, we'll add one more thing.
1:16:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Steve is I'm looking at these categories as you were talking or these films you were talking.
1:16:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, the villains aren't good.
1:16:33
[SPEAKER_00]: The villains aren't good.
1:16:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's a massive thing in all of these middling films that the villains aren't strong or aren't good.
1:16:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't mean the actors aren't good.
1:16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: They're good actors.
1:16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the story, it's the construction of the villain.
1:16:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the villain's motivation.
1:16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the villains interactions.
1:16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way he or she is shot, the way it's laid out, it just doesn't work.
1:16:56
[SPEAKER_00]: The hero, you know, in wrestling, it's the biggest thing and it moves the same thing.
1:17:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to have a great villain to have a great hero, sports the same way.
1:17:05
[SPEAKER_00]: How about Ali was great because he had all these people who he had these incredible trilogy of fights with or rematches with that were amazing.
1:17:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And that made you fall in love with him as a hero.
1:17:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Same thing with these films if they don't have good villains.
1:17:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So it kind of hurts the hero in your estimation when you look at it overall.
1:17:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's absolutely huge.
1:17:26
[SPEAKER_01]: In particular, because if you look at the really good ones, Black Panther being the most obvious example.
1:17:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
1:17:32
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the perfect villain for that character.
1:17:35
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the villain that they have to deal with, you know?
1:17:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
1:17:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I would cat the American winner soldier is the same thing.
1:17:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, um, so many of them in, and the other thing, if you don't have the great villain, then you have to have the great character journey.
1:17:49
[SPEAKER_01]: which is right.
1:17:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Mon and Thor Ragnarok.
1:17:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what's going on in no way home.
1:17:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that I mean, it's it's an ideally for a great film.
1:17:58
[SPEAKER_01]: You need both the great character journey and the great villain.
1:18:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:18:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:18:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And you need something like Quantumania where I would say Jonathan majors is a damn good actor, even though, you know, all the other stuff off of camera set aside.
1:18:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he does great as Kang.
1:18:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But
1:18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: the film lets that bill end down.
1:18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you're watching at the interview, like, wait, a bunch of ants beat him?
1:18:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, that, just why would you do that?
1:18:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And so those those things that kind of just, another example of how bad the villains can be in these middling films.
1:18:27
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole Kank thing, and I agree.
1:18:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I think whatever you want to say about the guy, that guy is, that guy can act.
1:18:32
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a great guy.
1:18:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Marvel thought that Kank was someone we cared about.
1:18:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And rather than like someone we have to make you care about.
1:18:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I watched Loki and I met him there and I saw him in other things and how he was popping up.
1:18:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And partially because he's different people every time he pops up.
1:18:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just feel like, well, and when he showed up in Quantumania as a different version of the same person,
1:19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't care.
1:19:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not scared.
1:19:04
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not, you know, when when Heath Ledger shows up as the Joker, I go, oh my god, when when this guy shows up, it's like, oh, there's that guy who's a good actor.
1:19:12
[SPEAKER_01]: He's going to do some weird stuff.
1:19:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I've again, I bet.
1:19:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why I wonder how I should feel about this, you know?
1:19:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think they, I think major exceptional actor, I think in the end, it's still what a fall in a part.
1:19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the king stuff would have still fallen apart in the end, regardless of the off-camera stuff, because he's an actor who acts in between the beats.
1:19:33
[SPEAKER_00]: You saw him at the end of Loki.
1:19:37
[SPEAKER_00]: When he is having those conversations with Loki and with Sylvie, the way he is delivering those lines is like someone on the downbeats and you're just like, I can't catch up with what you're doing and it's not, it doesn't fit the MCU.
1:19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It just doesn't in the end.
1:19:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's also the, I totally agree that and be it's also the issue with the multiverse of like way we're back in time and forward in time and in the quantum realm and there's this version of you and this version of you and this version of you is trying to kill this version of you and if this version kills this version of you then I'll die, but if I, but if I save the version of you that's trying to kill the version of me that's going to kill the version of you, then maybe something could will happen unless and that's and I's like,
1:20:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can't get emotionally involved at a certain point.
1:20:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
1:20:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where they go.
1:20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm out of it.
1:20:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you go.
1:20:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Middling.
1:20:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm out of here.
1:20:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Middling.
1:20:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean to this.
1:20:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
1:20:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's say, that's our breakdown of all these MCU movies.
1:20:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's answer some questions from some of our listeners here.
1:20:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Steve, some of our fans are joining us live here.
1:20:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:20:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Balkan nerd says that what are each of your hottest MCU movie takes?
1:20:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Baby, we've already delivered them.
1:20:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But what is, do you have a hottest MCU movie take?
1:20:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I've said this before, but the big realization I have when I read that MCU or listen to that MCU book, you know, the whole issue comes to you.
1:20:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't mean this disrespectfully.
1:20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Either thing I'm going to say, I mean 100% respectfully to the people who did the MCU, which is, it's amazing how lucky they got.
1:21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Movies, there are so many moments where they really didn't know what the fuck they were doing.
1:21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: The script was thrown out multiple times on Iron Man.
1:21:17
[SPEAKER_01]: They're always behind the ball.
1:21:18
[SPEAKER_01]: They're frequently scrambling things.
1:21:20
[SPEAKER_01]: They think are going to work.
1:21:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't end up working.
1:21:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Disasters happen at the last moment.
1:21:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the, I mean, I think George Lucas with Star Wars got incredibly lucky.
1:21:32
[SPEAKER_01]: That movie was inches away from being a total shit show.
1:21:36
[SPEAKER_01]: He was a brilliant guy, did some brilliant stuff, did not brilliant stuff, and with great editing and fantastic music and fantastic, I mean, you know, the special effects of that movie are way behind.
1:21:47
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way they could get them done on time and yet they did.
1:21:49
[SPEAKER_01]: That's very much what happened with the MCU is that there were so many moments where it could have been a fucking disaster.
1:21:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the last possible moment, something flipped the right way.
1:22:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone had a brilliant idea.
1:22:01
[SPEAKER_01]: They did something differently and suddenly it was all working.
1:22:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And that over and over again, and the difference now, I think, is they're not getting lucky anymore.
1:22:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're not smiling on them.
1:22:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, because they would just rush out to try to do stuff and it ended up working, but it doesn't always work that way.
1:22:22
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my suggestion.
1:22:23
[SPEAKER_01]: What about you?
1:22:24
[SPEAKER_00]: My hot take is this, Kevin Feige gets way too much credit and not enough blame for the success of the MCU and the failure of some of the films of the MCU.
1:22:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I think directors take way too much shit when their movies don't work in the MCU and Feige hides.
1:22:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And when that happens, instead of coming out front saying, we made some mistakes, she's a Chloe Jow's an excellent director, we clearly overthought this thing and my people and my writers' rooms are my executives, they messed up and make some of these decisions.
1:22:53
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not on her, this is on us, and we're going to do better.
1:22:56
[SPEAKER_00]: There's never, if I can never assess that, he always says in the broadest of terms, never taking personal responsibility.
1:23:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, that's my hottest take, is that I think Kevin has a bit of arrogance to him,
1:23:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas Kevin just kind of sits in the background, let's other people take the things and arrows while he keeps going.
1:23:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And so although I do think that's changing a little bit Steve, I think people think if doomsday doesn't work, this is on fight.
1:23:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:23:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I think it is.
1:23:24
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's, I think it's going to be done at Doomsday doesn't work this size of that budget and how much they're investing into it.
1:23:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That things, well, the thing is this is what so bugs me about the way the budgets and box office works is only way for Doomsday to be a success is it is if it is essentially in the top three most successful movies of all time.
1:23:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
1:23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:23:43
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what they're really shooting for.
1:23:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It needs to be not just a billion dollar movie.
1:23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It needs to be a 1.5 to 2 billion dollar movie.
1:23:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I just
1:23:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would say too, considering there's spending $500 million on it, it has to be too.
1:23:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to be consistent.
1:23:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Avatar Fire and Ash made $1.5 billion and it underperformed on a budget of $400 million.
1:24:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, if you've got a budget of $500 million and you don't make too, you were underperforming in the Marvel unit.
1:24:12
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I never make $500 million movies.
1:24:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a bad investment.
1:24:17
[SPEAKER_00]: No thanks.
1:24:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks.
1:24:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Shopred is, I think, Sean, she is the most underrated MCU movie.
1:24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the story and characters, and it has some of the best choreography in the MCU.
1:24:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Steve, I think you and I might agree.
1:24:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be a fun short to talk about the most underrated MCU movie.
1:24:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
1:24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's not that I'm not sure if I'd say it's the most underrated.
1:24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the one where I really wanted to get back to that world and they didn't let me.
1:24:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:24:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:24:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:24:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:24:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:24:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, I got a part.
1:24:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I got a part.
1:24:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I got a part of it man's got a hydrate.
1:24:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Sterling Jones 1187 says looking at the MCU, what character a character's do you think we're a swing in a miss or miss used and could use better fleshing out?
1:24:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I already said the Richard McCadams, her role in Dr.
1:25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Strange, I think, should have been fleshed out a little bit more.
1:25:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Bit of a swing in a mess, I think, even when she shows up in multiverse of madness, I think you could, I mean, maybe name more.
1:25:18
[SPEAKER_00]: not even joking.
1:25:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I'm a great one.
1:25:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:25:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I was any one talking about name or right now.
1:25:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think this is one of this is a great character that was well cast, the designs are good.
1:25:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And that, and because the thing about name or what's so great about that character is he is a,
1:25:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like Magneto where it's someone you can genuinely like and be heroic and you can really be with them and then be not more than that's a great character, but I don't think they I agree.
1:25:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think they service them well, I think the the three heroes and the marvels, you know, but I like them a lot and they without being in the mist for for me.
1:26:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I would throw out the entire cast of a turtle's was a swing in a mess, bro.
1:26:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, none of those characters got the deal, the due diligence they deserved.
1:26:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I never read any of those comics.
1:26:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't really know the characters.
1:26:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't, I don't know what they should have been.
1:26:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:26:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I feel like there were some other ones that were introduced.
1:26:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is, it's not my strong suit of remembering back and coming up with less so.
1:26:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So nothing's popping in my brain at the moment.
1:26:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Sterling.
1:26:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Wiley, with the last one here, watching the Koan-chelle streams, I'll watch after.
1:26:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But, John, I watched the Elvis docket.
1:26:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It was so good.
1:26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Lost my mind seeing him sing Beatles songs.
1:26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So good.
1:26:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Wiley's referencing the epic.
1:26:42
[SPEAKER_00]: film that came out to Elvis Presley and concert that came out a couple of months ago.
1:26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It is now out on digital, highly recommended if anybody hasn't seen it.
1:26:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you've seen every Elvis Presley behind the scenes doc, this one will still be one of your favorites because it's a it's a whole reappreciation of 1970s Elvis Vegas Elvis.
1:27:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You really see all the work he put into doing those shows and the idea that he was lit he was a
1:27:07
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... they do that was put out this narrative that it was fat elves years gets really shot to pieces when you watch this and see how much work he put into the shows it's amazing so yeah i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm i'm
1:27:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I knew, I knew Adam because my good friend Soren, he lived, he's Adam lived with Soren when I was hanging out.
1:27:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So I, I, I was, I knew Adam right when they became the counting croats and right.
1:27:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
1:27:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:27:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's what's really weird.
1:27:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Soren's not in the movie, but so many places, there are pictures of like, yep, that's the house that I used to hang out in.
1:27:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, I've been there already.
1:27:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I was there.
1:27:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first 30 minutes that's kind of Berkeley oriented, you know, is it's, yeah.
1:27:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's kind of it's really trippy to watch and very emotional.
1:27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I knew some of the stuff that was going on Yeah, but there was a lot going on with it.
1:28:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I didn't know any of that stuff, right?
1:28:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Watching that dog and I defend my love of counting Crosse And obviously everything after right that's one of the greatest albums of the last 40 years.
1:28:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care what anyways No, that's great also by the way.
1:28:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I'm Drew's huge cow fan
1:28:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well there you go.
1:28:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You would be down on the sidelines with the teams during games and I would spot that.
1:28:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I would spot that hair and go there.
1:28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, there he is.
1:28:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
1:28:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
1:28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, Steve, we're at the hour and a half mark anything else you want to say as we have.
1:28:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wait, we should say we are going.
1:28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sorry.
1:28:37
[SPEAKER_00]: We are doing.
1:28:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Deadpool right now currently and Steve mentioned, although it's not officially Deadpool, apart of the MCU and it came out, where would we put Deadpool in our listings of great good idling or ugly?
1:28:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Steve, it's so hard.
1:28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we talked about so many great.
1:28:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I love Deadpool.
1:28:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It goes to the great movie category.
1:28:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Hands down.
1:28:59
[SPEAKER_01]: No question about it.
1:29:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
1:29:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Dammit, I'd have to say it's a great film.
1:29:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It rewatching it now for what we're doing.
1:29:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was so fun to revisit it and have these conversations.
1:29:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So yes, 100% it's in the great category.
1:29:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so good.
1:29:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, all right, it is a totally unique vision.
1:29:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It is exactly what I'm saying.
1:29:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Deadpool, Guardians isn't like anything.
1:29:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Black Panther isn't like anything.
1:29:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Deadpool is not like anything.
1:29:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It is what it is.
1:29:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, 100% agree.
1:29:27
[SPEAKER_00]: 100% agree.
1:29:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But what else have we got coming up, Steve?
1:29:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it a wrap up?
1:29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Please let people know and where they can find you and all of that.
1:29:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they can certainly find me at SR Morris on Twitter and they can support the show at patreon.com slash the cinephiles as well as on Apple Podcasts where they can get ad free versions of the show.
1:29:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen to our cinephiles shorts.
1:29:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Our most recent short that we just put out was on mentors, Senses and teachers.
1:29:48
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about all those characters like Yoda and Mickey and Mr. Miyagi appear in film.
1:29:54
[SPEAKER_01]: This we have shorts every week to check out.
1:29:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And right now, as you said, we've got Deadpool.
1:29:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Part one is going to be out this coming Friday with part two the week after.
1:30:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, of course, subscribe to the show everywhere you can.
1:30:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
1:30:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Please do that as for me.
1:30:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You can follow me out the road because says it's just See down below there and my YouTube channel YouTube.com slash John Rooka says But those of you who are gonna be following the cinema con stuff.
1:30:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I will do my damnedest To go live every day to talk about what I saw on that day's panels tomorrow or Monday's only one Tuesday's two and then I think Wednesday's three panels and then Thursday's two panels.
1:30:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll be fucking busy So if you want to get my live reaction saw this stuff head on over to my YouTube channel as well, but yes
1:30:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Deadpool 1 coming out on Friday from Stephen.
1:30:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I already recorded part one.
1:30:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you guys are going to enjoy.
1:30:40
[SPEAKER_00]: We had a blast talking about it.
1:30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
1:30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So for my partner, Steve.
1:30:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
1:30:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you watch it, please let us know your thoughts.
1:30:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do you put the good?
1:30:47
[SPEAKER_00]: The bad, the middling, the ugly and the great films.
1:30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do you have those in your categories?
1:30:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Let us know down in the comments section.
1:30:55
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
1:30:55
[SPEAKER_00]: For part of Steve Morris, I am John Rogan.
1:30:57
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk to you next time with another brand new