Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Sherri Papini in Person. Liar or Victim? Our Juicy Questions are Answered

Transcript

Sherri Papini in Person. Liar or Victim? Our Juicy Questions are Answered · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Show to know.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: She talks Hollywood tales for real life, Mr.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: Saving Serial Data and Serial Sisters.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: tabloid real life podcast.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: Listen in, listen up.
• 0:25
  Speaker 4: Woo, woo.
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: Heather MacDonald. Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Today's episode might be my favorite. It is the juiciest
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: interview I've ever had the privilege to do because it's
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: one story that I have covered for almost 10 years
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: because November 2nd of 2016, Sherry Papini went missing while
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: she was on a run in her neighborhood in Redding, California.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: To remind you guys, she was gone for 22 days.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: When she was found on the side of the road
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: where her captor had left her, she was very beaten up.
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: She said two women had kidnapped her and kept her captive.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: And for six years, that was the story the people
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: at home believed. The FBI then brought her in one
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: last time and said, we know it's this man named
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: James who you had had a previous relationship with, that
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: you were with. And it went on from there that
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: it came out. It was a hoax. James said that
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: she told him to get her and that she was
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: a friend and that he agreed to physically abuse her
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: and leave her marked to go with the story that
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: she was kidnapped. She went to prison because she lied
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: to the government. And there have been several shows that
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: have been written about her. Her husband and she divorced Keith.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: And the latest one is on Max called, that is
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: Sherry Papini getting caught in a lie, which I've seen
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: all of it. She is here. She answers every question
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: that I asked. And I know there's been other interviews
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: that you may have seen with her, but this is
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: like no other. And I really get into the juicy scoop.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: So now with my interview with Sherry Papini.
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: Employers, rewarding your staff with vouchers this year? Here's the
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: good news. With OptionsCard.ie, there's no forms, no uploads, no delays.
• 2:45
  Speaker 5: Just choose who to reward and how much. OptionsCard handles
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: the rest. Your team gets one voucher, opening a world
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: of choice. They can even re-gift some of the value.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: One reward, endless choice. Skip the hassle, reward the easy way. OptionsCard.ie
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have been dreaming
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: about this since a very long time. I have Sherry
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: Papini here. As you guys know, I've covered her story
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: for a long time and I gave an intro before
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: you came so people are up to date on where
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: you are at with everything. You have a four-part documentary
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: out on Max, which I watched, all of it. And
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: also you have a book that is available right now
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: for purchase. Sherry Papini Doesn't Exist, where you really get
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: into a lot that hasn't been covered, though a lot
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: has been covered between two different documentaries. I'm just going
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: to go through the doc. You've got Sherry Papini, Caught
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: in a Lie. Welcome to Juicy Scoop. Say hello.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: And then also The Perfect Wife, which was on Hulu.
• 4:02
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: And also the Lifetime movie with Jamie King, who I know,
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: played you. He's lovely. He's really lovely. Which you played
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: you in the Lifetime movie. And we'll get into all
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: those things. But, you know, what made you decide after
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: you did your time, you've been out for how long?
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: Because I know you did 10 months. In prison for
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: lying about the, to the FBI about who in fact
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: kidnapped you when you were released. And you've been out
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: for how long?
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: A year.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Just a year?
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: A little over a year.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I got out in October, over past October.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: And then, so you've only been out for a year
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: from doing your 10 months in the prison in Victorville.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: But so where did it come about where you're like,
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: My husband has done a documentary on Hulu. They did
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: a scripted show on Lifetime. How did this other documentary come,
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: the four-part one on Max, and that you agreed to
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: do it?
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Well, I had no idea HBO was going to pick
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: it up or Warner Brothers was going to pick it up.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: So I was incredibly touched to be reached to be
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: a subject in the documentary. And When the Hulu documentary began,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I was in prison. So I didn't have the opportunity
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: to have a voice then. And as you can see,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: like we just saw, so many stories have ran about
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: me without me. So there's narrative, other narratives, so many
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: other ways, twists and turns and spins and salaciousness and clickbait.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: And all of these stories have ran without me, about me. And,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: you know, for a number of years, I had this
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: purposeful silence where I was not coming out because I
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: was just too afraid to say that I was having
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: an emotional affair, particularly while I was still married to
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: my ex-husband. And I'm not afraid to say that anymore.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: So now it's like, I'm not married anymore. I'm free
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: from everything. I'm free to have my voice. I'm free
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: to tell my story. And now it's time, you know,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: it's time to be able to participate in where I've
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: been exploited, you know, the industry has used my story
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: for so long without me. And, um, I think it's
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: only reasonable for me to start getting involved with the
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: narrative because I do have my side of the story, um,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: that tracks very simply. And.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, so this is what's crazy. So I, you know,
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: I followed it from hearing about an attractive young blonde
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: mom went for her jog and she, is missing. So,
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: you know, the first thoughts that people have is it's
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: the husband. He's lying that he came home and that
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: you were missing. And then it was, could it be
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: because she looks young that they thought you were a teenager,
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: which would be a higher commodity to steal and sex traffic.
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: Then there were things in the Reddit worlds saying like,
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: there was maybe involved in some type of a drug
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: dealing thing and their family's involved in drug dealing and
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: therefore she's being kidnapped as like a ransom thing. And
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: so then when we get to the place of you've
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: been found the day before Thanksgiving and you, you know,
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: she looks, you know, looks very different. Your husband said,
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: but we're so happy to have her back. And, you know,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: we later see, that you've been bruised and your nose
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: is cut, your hair is cut, and you've been branded
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: and all these things. What's weird is what was always
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: strange as someone that watched it was they weren't telling
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: us anything. We did see that you said these two women,
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: these two Latina-looking women were the ones who kidnapped me.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: Which right away did get people thinking, this is really strange.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: Just because women in general are not known as kidnappers.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: And if they were kidnapping you to traffic you, my
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: first thought was, why would they hurt her looks? why
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: would they cut her blonde hair? Why, why, why would
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: you do that? You wouldn't do that. So, but then
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: it was like the FBI, whatever the, the news was
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: so quiet about it for so long, because obviously they
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: were trying to, you know, find out the act, the truth.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: And so my, like my, my first question, so I
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: have so many questions. So like, Why didn't you say that,
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: you know, did you decide not to just say it
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: was a random guy? Obviously, you weren't going to say
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: it was this guy that you had at one time.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: Were you engaged to James?
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: No.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: Oh, that you one time dated him.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: That's funny. That's a detail that's in there, but we
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: were never engaged.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: So you dated the guy, James, originally from what age?
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Um... It was early 2000s.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: So you were how old? Just give me eight.
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: 20s.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: Oh, early 20s.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: And you dated him for how long?
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: Not very long. For maybe a year, a little bit
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: more than a year, something like that.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: And so you say in the documentary, you know, Keith is,
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: you know, though you guys look perfect, you're very beautiful.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: He's very attractive. You know, you weren't having this perfect
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: relationship and he was controlling and you couldn't with this
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: old boyfriend because somebody in his family had passed and
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: so you start having an emotional affair which people do
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: you know our technology today makes that easy to do
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: to have a connection whether you meet them back Facebook
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: or whatever or you guys got burner phones when Did
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: you think I'm going to say it's women because sexual
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: stuff happened with him and you didn't want to even
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: point towards a male? Like, why? I'm just thinking, why
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: wouldn't you just say it was some random guy? Right.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: That was unacceptable to Keith Vipini. So I was incredibly
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: terrified of Keith finding out that it was a male.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, you see the evidence that says that I
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: was hiding guys' names under women's names. which demonstrates just
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: the level of fear that I had with Keith. So
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: I just couldn't, I couldn't say that it was a man.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: It was safer for me to have said women with
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: what I was going to experience at home than it
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: would have been with a man because Keith was not
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: interested in what happened to my body or what happened
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: during captivity. It's this piece of the entire fabrication of
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: our perfect marriage would fall apart if there was any cheating,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Even the emotional affair that I had that was quite innocent.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like we were sexting each other or inappropriate
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: text messages. But the second that it involved another male
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: or there was even a hint of cheating, my entire
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: home life would have fallen apart.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: When did he first show you this like crazy jealous
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: side of himself? Before you were married or after or
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: did it have like did it come later? get worse
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: with time or what was it?
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: It got worse and worse over time. You know, when
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: we experienced that love bombing phase and we experienced the
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: phase where you're getting to know each other and like
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: he had me on the hook right away and then
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: we had kids. And when life shifted, when I lost
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: my job, AT & T had a merger and then
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: I was laid off from my job and I became
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: a stay-at-home mom. I was really like an employee of his.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Like I went from having status and having shared responsibility
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: into a relationship to really this like under inflated role
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: in our home. And it really significantly shifted the dynamic
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: and the energy and the roles. And that's when everything
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: really started to go very, very wrong.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: There's one part that I remember after you were being questioned,
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: you were home. And you were going through the day
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: of what happened. And you said, well, I called Keith
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: to see if he would come home for lunch, meaning sex.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: Was that true? Were you still like trying to have
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: sex with him and keep this relationship going? And like,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's pretty, to me, that would say this
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: marriage is pretty great. If you're like, hey, come on
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: by for lunch, cutie.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Not when it's more about servitude. Okay. So when it's
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: a requirement for your husband, it's a completely different atmosphere there.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: So for me, James was really agitated on November 2nd
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: in 2016. And so the dynamic of the communication was
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: very different that day. He was really pushy. He was
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: really agitated. He was really, he like, it frightened me.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: So for me, if I could get Keith to come home,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: then I could text James and say, sorry. My husband's home.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I can't meet up with you now. So I was
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: trying to get that buffer.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: So that morning, James, in the documentary, you say, I
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: had decided, like, I got to stop this communication with James.
• 13:48
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: And why did you decide that? Did you think he
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: was getting weird or what?
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: It was getting very serious. First of all, Keith caught me.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: And that's where the burner phones came into play. So
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Keith had caught me text messaging him. And I was
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: trying to end it.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: How did he catch you?
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: He got a text message. Like he caught a flash
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: of a text message and it was very clear that
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: it was not a female that I was texting. And
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: so I tried to end things with James and James
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: just didn't want that, which is why the burner phones.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: Came into effect.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: What would he say?
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Would you and James only text or you talk on
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: the phone too?
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Occasionally we would talk.
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: And what did he say when you're like, this has
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: to end?
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, he didn't want that. It was all about like, well,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: let's find a way to keep talking. Let's find a
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: way to keep engaging. And I guess that was the
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: warning sign that I missed, unfortunately, but I was also
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: so desperate for having a connection with someone at the time. And,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: and I really wasn't very well either. I didn't, I
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: was always externally searching for validation and didn't really have
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: the greater understanding to have internal validation like I do now.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: But he really, he didn't want it to end. So
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: it was the say, I'll send you a burner phone.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: which he did, and then keep it even more secret.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: Okay. So you said that morning you were going to end.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: Walk me through the day. Okay. So Keith goes to work.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Kids are in their preschool. Then what happens?
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: James is getting really agitated. And ordinarily, he knew that
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: I was concealing the phone from Keith. So time would
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: go by, you know, I would have a while to
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: respond and things like that. And he was just like,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: every couple of seconds, what are you doing?
• 15:37
  Speaker 7: Where are you at?
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: What are you doing? Because he was already in town.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: And for me, it was like, this is too much.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: It's really intense.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: When he said, I'm coming to town from Costa Mesa.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: Had you said, okay, I'll meet you for lunch or anything?
• 15:52
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: That was the plan. So you were going to meet
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: him and have like lunch or something or get together.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: In a public place with a friend there. There was
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: a whole plan because I knew that.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Who was the friend? Could the friend like say that
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: they knew about it?
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Well, unfortunately, the way that I was going to set
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: it up is we were going to, I wasn't like
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: telling her. I was going to set it up so
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: that James would come in. And I'd be like, oh, look,
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: there's my friend James over there and kind of set
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: it up.
• 16:21
  Speaker 7: She wasn't, you know, I was trying to conceal all
• 16:24
  Speaker 7: the details of that.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: But there was a whole plan. Like it was supposed
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: to be at Cattleman's on Hilltop Drive in Redding. And
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: I had a whole thing worked out with him because
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: I knew that I was going to be breaking it
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: off and saying goodbye and that it was going to
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: be the end of everything. But it was going to
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: be in a public place. It was not going to
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: be private.
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: So that was going to happen. So you ask Keith,
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: do you want to come home for lunch?
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, I was really, he was so aggressive in the
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: way that he was texting.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: No, James.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. James was super aggressive. So I just, you know,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: I had that feeling of like, this is a bit much.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: And I was starting to feel really uneasy and really scared.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: And so I was trying to get Keith to come
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: home because if he came home, then I could really
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: simply text James. Oh, you know, Keith is here and
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: maybe possibly get him to back down.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: And then hope that he just went home and then
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: be done. Okay.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: So either went home or delayed it or something.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: So then you go for your run.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: I'm texting him and saying like, I just need a minute.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to, Oh, I'll let you know when
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: I'm back from my run was what the text said.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: And what time was the run?
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Sometime in the morning. I don't, I can't recall the
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: exact time, but it was after I dropped the kids
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: off at daycare. So I presume it's sometime after nine,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: somewhere around there.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: And so then we see in the doc that you
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: get to the place where at this point you're like
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: traumatized by how you got in the car. And so
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: we don't, you don't really remember if you went in
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: the car, you know, or if he grabbed you or
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: if you went willingly thinking you'll go get a coffee.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, for me as a viewer, as I watched it,
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: this is what I thought happened. I think I thought,
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: I think she saw him and again in like, I'll
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: let him down easy. I thought maybe you did get
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: in the car willingly, whether you remember it or not.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: And then it was too late.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: That's a possibility. So like I say in the documentary
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: and in the book too, um, either way is reasonable.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: So if I could, possibly remember, I would absolutely tell you,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I wish I did remember. Is it, can it be
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: concluded that I got into the car?
• 18:46
  Speaker 7: Sure.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Can it be concluded that I didn't get in the car?
• 18:49
  Speaker 7: Sure.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Either one, I can tell you a certainty. There was
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: no plan to go to Southern California. I would have
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: never left Reading. That I know for sure. So even
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: if I volunteered to get in the car or I
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: told him I would get in the car, I would
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: have never left town ever. I mean, I knew he
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: was there and I knew I was going to see him.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: So it's reasonable to say that, that I would willingly
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: get in the car. Not leave, though.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: Never leave.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Never leave Reading.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: So now from where he is to Reading, that's like
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: a nine hour drive or something. So you say that
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: the next thing you remember is getting out of the
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: car and he had to help you walk. And is
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: that because you think maybe he gave you something or
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: because like you were so crunched up in the car
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: that your legs just had trouble walking?
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: No, I've never done drugs. I've never even been drunk before.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: So I was definitely under the influence of something. What
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: it is, I have no idea. But it was almost
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: like my feet couldn't make contact with the pavement. Like
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: I put a foot down and I wouldn't feel like
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I couldn't feel the pavement underneath me. And it was like,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: my body was like misfiring. Like I just didn't have
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: all of my faculties and it was, it was really fuzzy.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: And then what's the next thing you remember waking up
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: in this dark room or?
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: No.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: So he brought me in and he sat me on
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: the couch and I was just kind of curled up
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: into a ball on the couch. And then there was
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: an exchange between he and I and like he wanted
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: me to come over and kiss him. And I said no.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: And I was just really scared, totally terrified.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Because now you must be thinking, holy fuck, I'm with
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: this guy. There's no way I'm going to be able
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: to explain this to Keith. There's no, at this point,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: there's no way to explain why you're with your ex-boyfriend,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: who he And when he saw the original text, did
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: he know it was James, this guy, or did he
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: just think it was a random guy when he knew
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: that you were texting a dude? He knew. He knew
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: it was him.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: He's known the entire time. I mean, he even told
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: law enforcement in the very beginning about James and why
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: law enforcement chose to go to Michigan instead of Southern California.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: What would happen in Michigan?
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: It was another contact of mine. They went and investigated
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: any contact.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: That they could. Oh, somebody else that you'd kind of
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: flirted with?
• 21:06
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't even say flirting. It was just someone that
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I was talking to.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: Was that the doctor or something? Was he a doctor?
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: There was some story that somebody like, I read something like, oh,
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: it was because this, she was, you know, again, talking
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: to somebody and, and that, you know, didn't go anywhere.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Oh my God.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: I was so miserable.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: It's so, you know, it's, and after everything had happened
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: and After I was released from the hotel or from
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: the hospital.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Wait, did they look at the Michigan doctor guy after
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: you were released or while you were missing?
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: While I was missing. Oh, okay. Yeah, so they could have...
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: He was on the list. James was on his list of...
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Law enforcement's list of people to look into. They just didn't.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: They didn't?
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: No.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: Okay, so he wanted you to get romantic with him
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: and now you're like... No.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I mean... I was terrified.
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Like that was... I was planning on meeting with him, sure.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: But Southern California, no. I was just really scared.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: So then what happens?
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: So then I say no. And the next thing that
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I remember is waking up in the bedroom, not fully dressed. Okay.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: And in that bedroom, had he already put the wood
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: or the boarding up of the windows?
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it was there prior to when
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I woke up because it's not like he gave me
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: a tour of the house or anything. I don't really
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: remember a whole lot.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: When you woke up, it was there.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: It was boards on the windows.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: So you don't know if he did it afterwards because
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: he felt you had rejected him or if he had
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: planned to kidnap you. Yeah.
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: James said he put the boards on the windows because
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: I wanted it dark.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: That is the part that I did not believe. Because
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: when I covered, I was like, when we realized it's
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: not these women, it's this guy that she actually knows,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: and heard all these things that he said, oh, I
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: was just being a friend, and she asked me to
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: do all these things. I'm like, wait a minute. Okay.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: The only person that would maybe do this is somebody
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: that I think would be deemed clinically, mentally, disably, unintelligent,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: like the lowest IQ person that might be like, what,
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: what do I do? And I was like, but wait,
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: this guy has a job.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Or someone that suffers from sexual sadism. Right.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: So what I'm saying, if we're to believe him, that
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: a friend says, Will you hit me and make me
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: look kidnapped? And you're like, okay, I'll hit you. And
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: now I'm going to go off to work while you
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: sit in this dark room. I was like, if he's
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: capable of paying for an apartment, house, thing, whatever it was,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: and having a regular job, then he can't be at
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: an IQ of 70. So that's where I was always like,
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: this is so weird. And also, being that you are
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: an attractive person, And that you've always been stylish and
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: do your hair and wear cute outfits and keep up.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: I just didn't believe that if you were faking your
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: own thing that you would want to destroy your looks.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: As like a typical vain, we have curling irons, both
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: of us, person, you just wouldn't be, I would not
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: be willing to do this. And I always was like,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: why are people not seeing the female side of this?
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: And then in watching the doc, I was like, oh,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: because the main detective, you know, is a guy.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: He plays softball with my ex-husband.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: Prior to the missing?
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: And after?
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: Wait. They were friends.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: The detective? Mm-hmm.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: They all play at Big League Dreams together.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: Okay, so let's go back.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: So.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: I also didn't believe that either, that someone that is
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: active like you that would go running, if you're planning
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: on your own kidnapping, that you, even if you're planning,
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: you'd be like, okay, curtains, something. You would want to
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: have some fresh light in. I'm like, it doesn't make
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: any sense that you would choose to go, let me
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: stay in this dark room by myself for eight hours.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: What was his job? Where was he going every day?
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: I have no idea. I think it had something to
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: do with hockey.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: Was he a hockey player at one time? So he
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: played hockey.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Like professional level. Yeah.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: So the mark on your nose that you have when
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: you come home, which they featured in the cover of
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: the Lifetime movie with Jamie King, he said that you
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: asked him to hurl a hockey puck at your face.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: No. So he says that he held out the hockey
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: stick and I ran into it. So imagine, if you will,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: if you don't mind. You're standing over there where those
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: little mints are.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: And you're holding a hockey stick out. And I'm starting
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: from maybe where your door is there. And I have
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: to run. How many steps do you think I would
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: get in?
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Maybe two. And I would have to effectively hit.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: Myself.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: So I'd be ramming my face into something, hoping that
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: it hits square on my nose.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: And how did you get that?
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: He smashed it into my face. His lie that he
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: held it up and I ran into.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: It is absurd. How far into the 22 days did
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: he do that?
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Towards the end. So just to talk about the disorientation
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: that I was under. So when we think about solitary confinement,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: they don't do that with prisoners even in the same
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: way that they used to. So imagine how many times
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: you look at your watch during the day. So it's
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: so disorienting. So it's difficult for me To conclude which
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: day or where it was, I can say that it
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: was towards the end of the 22 days of captivity.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: But which day it was, it's kind of hard to... Like,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: I had trouble connecting with whether it was morning or
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: night half of the time.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Right, I can imagine. Yeah. So, like, tell... So, I
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: understand how, like, when I say what day was it,
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: I get that you can't really tell me that. But
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: I'm kind of, like, in the scope of things.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: So... It wasn't in the very beginning. The injury to
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: my nose wasn't in the very beginning. It was towards
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: the end.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Because you were fighting or he was getting pissed at
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: you or what was happening?
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: No, it was just there. James has a proclivity for
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: violence and violent acts gets him off. So particular types
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: of ways that he would harm me, um, I learned
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: pretty quickly if he could harm me, if he harmed
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: me in certain ways, he would get off and that
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: would keep him out of me so I wouldn't get pregnant.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: So there was this difficulty that I had.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: So he's like jerking off on you.
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:07
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: All right. I didn't understand that from the doc. Now
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: that's clearer. That makes more sense now.
• 28:13
  Speaker 7: I mean, we have a responsibility in a documentary.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:17
  Speaker 6: So.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: Now, also that you had lost a lot of weight,
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: and you're normally a very thin person. So what was
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: the deal for the food? He wasn't feeding you?
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I had to earn it.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: And how would you earn it? Through the sex stuff?
• 28:32
  Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: And so some days you'd just be like, I don't
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: want to eat that?
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a difficult choice to choose between starvation
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: and disturbing things. And also that's where he was hiding
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: the drugs most of the time. So it was like
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: I had to make a choice.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: Like the drugs to put you out or?
• 28:52
  Speaker 6: Oh.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: It's impossible. Do you know what he was giving you then?
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: No.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Like a pill or what was it?
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: I've tried to get my records from law enforcement and
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: from the hospital. They won't give them to me. We've
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: tried everything. We've tried to get them during the doc.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: We tried to get them personally. I've had lawyers try
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: to get them. They won't give me my records. I
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: can remember what they said when I was in the
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: hospital after. Like they tried to take blood, but I
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: was so dehydrated, nothing came out. So I wasn't able
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: to give them a blood sample. They had a urine
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: sample and trace drugs were found in it, but they
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: won't give me that report. I heard what they said,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: but what I've learned in this entire experience is if
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I don't have backup, I can't say it. So I
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: can tell you what they said, but they won't give
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: me the report of the conclusion.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: And so what did they say? Just that you were
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: so dehydrated?
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Oh no, there was drugs that were found in my system,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: but they won't give me the report.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: They won't tell you what it was?
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: I heard what it was. They said it, but I
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: don't have the proof. So if I tell you, are
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: you even going to believe that?
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: Well, I am. Just tell me what it was.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: It was a combination of morphine, diphenhydramine, prescription strength codeine,
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: and something else that I can't remember. It's some kind
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: of long date rape drug name that I can't remember.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: The GHB thing or something like that?
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: It was a really long name. I can't remember.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: But it's something to put you out.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: There was a.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Whole bunch of a concoction, and it wasn't the same
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: high the entire time. It was different. I experienced different things. Now,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: whether that was part of starvation or stress— Or whatever.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know. But I know there was different forms
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: of different things that he was giving me as well.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: Liquid.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Sometimes things in the food.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: And so when did you find out that the world
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: was looking for you? And how did you find out?
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: He joked about it. Casually. And then he said that
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: his cousin that was watching me that lived in the
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: same cul-de-sac nicknamed me America's Most Wanted. So it was
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: like a joke to them.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: This cousin was a man or a woman?
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: A man.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: And what do you mean? He'd go to work and
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: the guy would just come in and make sure that
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: you were still like there?
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: No, there was a time where he did. But no,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: James was very clear that people were watching me. So
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I would presume that's part of the brainwashing tactic to
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: let me know that someone was watching me when he
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: was at work. So he would either leave me chained
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: to the wall and make sure that he ensured that
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: I knew that I was being watched as well.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: So did you think he was going to kill you?
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Every second that I was able to open my eyes,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I felt lucky. I mean, I felt like I was
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: fighting just to stay alive every second of every moment.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: You deserve a treat.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week
• 32:14
  Speaker 6: on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who
• 32:17
  Speaker 6: have faced tremendous setbacks. And yet somehow have found a
• 32:21
  Speaker 6: way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Life is one long lesson of chaos. I'm heading to
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: the Emmys and I have police complaints filed against me.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: what would you do if it was given back?
• 32:35
  Speaker 6: Where did that need come from where you thought that
• 32:38
  Speaker 6: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: He said, I have a work dad.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: I need a home dad. What happens next?
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: When I came in, he started crying.
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not
• 32:50
  Speaker 6: those hard moments that they go through.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: It's about what happens next. I decided to risk it all.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: I realized how valuable every day was. You're worth the work.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Listen, Dara, I'm not going to pull punches. You can
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: use your voice even if it's shaped.
• 33:02
  Speaker 6: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 33:06
  Speaker 6: Only one question matters. What happens next?
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: And so when we get to the day where you
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: convince him finally to let you go, why do you think, like,
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: how did that come about that you could finally drop
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: me off and I'm never going to say anything and
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: we're never going to talk to each other again? Like,
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: what was the agreement then?
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I was negotiating every single day trying to find
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: some way to get home.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: So it was.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: easy for me to say, I'm not going to rat
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: you out. I won't say anything. Just let me go home.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: And for me, it was, if you let me go,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: the media will stop because it's getting bigger and it's
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: getting bigger and it's getting bigger. And he continued to
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: say it was getting bigger. And he said that there
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: was some kind of ransom something or other, and his
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: family had been discussing it. So I presume that there
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: was a lot of pressure, not just from the media,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: but from his family as well. And anytime we did
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: have any sort of communication. It was my husband's never
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: going to stop looking for me. He's never going to stop.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: They're getting close. So I got to use that in
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: a way as a negotiation tactic. And I think it
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: worked for sure.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: And so do you remember the day that he's like, OK,
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: get in the car or I'm going to put you
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: in the car?
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: That was such an odd day because there wasn't necessarily
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: a plan. It was just me pleading and promising that
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: I wasn't going to reveal his identity in order for
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: me to get home. But there wasn't, like there's a
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: chapter in my book where I discuss what that was like,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: the in-depth conversation there and leading up to the understanding
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: of like, I remember him rushing into the room and
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: fastening like hose clamps to my body and going like.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: What the hell is he doing? What do you mean
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: hose clamps?
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, you're so cute. So when you do plumbing,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: there's a metal clamp and then you tighten it with
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: a screwdriver and it tightens the piece of sharp metal.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: you look like quite a construction worker. So I presume
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: you know exactly what that is. But yeah, so for me,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: it was he did that. And then I'm like, what
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: the hell? And it was super confusing. It was very rushed.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: And even when he dropped me off, he didn't tell
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: me where I was. He didn't tell me that there
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: was a plan. It was just like, get out of
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: the car. And then he drove off. And for me,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: it was like, there's a I didn't know what was
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: coming for me. I didn't know whether I was going
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: to survive. I didn't know if he was coming back.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen at the
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: drop off. And I write about that a lot in
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: this chapter because what we don't talk about a whole
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: lot is that day and how he got me into
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: the car. He made me get into a bag and
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: carried me out.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: The day that you're coming home.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: The day he released me. He put me inside of
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: a bag and carried me out.
• 36:05
  Speaker 7: To the car.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: What kind of a bag?
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Like a hockey bag. Oh, it smelled foul. It was
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: a hockey bag. So I was small enough to fit
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: like a broken marionette in a bag that he put
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: over his shoulder and carried me out to the car.
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: And then did you just sit? Were you just sitting
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: in the back seat the whole time? I was terrified.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: I had no idea what was going on. So he
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: put me in the trunk, shoved the bag forward, and
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: then I just thought I was going to stay in
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: the bag. So I just stayed crumpled up in the bag.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: In the trunk?
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it was in the trunk. I
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: don't know. I was in a bag.
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: But then did you eventually get to Get out of
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: the bag for the nine hours.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: And then he readjusted me and put a pillowcase over
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: my head. And then I was like fastened.
• 36:45
  Speaker 7: So when I tried to move in the car, I
• 36:48
  Speaker 7: was like that hose clamp that I'm talking about.
• 36:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: It was connected to something. And then he took my
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: arm and zip tied it to the chain. So I
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: was bound all over the place. So all I was
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: doing was staying frozen and quiet in the backseat.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: So you get, you wave someone down. Right.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God. I felt like I was on the
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: side of the road for hours, hours. And I even
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: so when we have I-5, right, we have two lanes
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: and then there's that middle lane there. I walked into
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: the middle lane and cars were like going around me.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: No one had stopped for. I mean, my hair was
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: cut off. I looked like a homeless person. There's a
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: chain hanging out of my waist. But no one stopped
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: for a really long time.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: And who did stop?
• 37:36
  Speaker 7: A truck driver.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: And what did you say? Did you say, I'm Sherry Papini,
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: get me to a hospital? What's the first thing you
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: say when you finally find another human?
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, he pulls over and I'm like, come on.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: No, a truck driver, really?
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Like I go through all this and this is how
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: I die?
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: Come on.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: Like another person could kill you.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Well, it was this big man, you know, it was
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: this big disheveled man that came out and I was
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: really scared and I dropped down and really low and said,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: please don't hurt me. And he was so kind and
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: was like, I'm not going to hurt you. here's the
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: phone with the 911 dispatcher. And when he handed me
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: the phone, he was like, are you all right? And
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: I said, no, I've escaped. And then when he was
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: on with the dispatcher, he said, she's escaped her boyfriend.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh God, no, I didn't say that
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: to him at all. But I was terrified.
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: He just assumed that. Yeah, he just assumed that.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: And you hear my voice in that going, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: And I was terrified already.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: And was that used against you? Of course it is.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: Course it was, but I didn't say that to him,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: but you can hear how terrified I am that the
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: truck driver even said that.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: And so then when you get to the hospital and
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: you see Keith, your husband for the first time, what
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: was like, what was it like? Because you didn't have
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: a good marriage before, but I would think one of
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: the things that I think is fascinating by the theory
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: that you faked your own kidnapping, um, a couple of things.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: One is, um, like one of the reasons i thought
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: i was so fascinated i'll just tell you i was
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: going to do it in the first part of the
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: show but let me show you so many years ago
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: there was this raiderette that went missing sadly she was
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: murdered but every night this was like uh there was
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: a show called hard copy it's like kind of like
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: the 90s so it's 1996 it's 1996 no 99 1995
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: is when she went missing and every night there was
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: so much news because she was a pretty blonde girl
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: and all her raiderette friends and they were all models
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: in la and it was in la and they were
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: always on and i was at the time like trying
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: to make it as like an actress comedian. And I
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: was like, and I had this idea and I was like, God,
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: what if, you know, someone ever faked their thing to
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: just finally get their name out there? Because it was
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: so hard back then to like, you couldn't just go
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: on TikTok and like suddenly have people see you had
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: to like beg to get an agent. So I have
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: a movie idea from 1996 that I came across that
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: is about a dark comedy of, A person like me who...
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: you know, acts, pretends that she went missing just so
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: that someone will find her headshot and her comedy act.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: And then the rest of the script, the little script
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: that I wrote was then her friends though, do so
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: many like benefits and stuff. They end up getting the deals.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: And then she's like, how do I get out of
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: this apartment? Like now, what do I do? Like now
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: I was going to hate me. You know, it's so
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: weird that I thought of that in 1996. And then,
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: then Gone Girl was written. Then your situation happened. And
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: I think there's something about a woman faking that for
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: a number of reasons. One, the attention. Two, that your
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: husband that maybe wasn't nice to you, now he'll appreciate me.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: For the people that believe that it was a hoax,
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: I think they thought a couple things. One, you're pretty
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: and you wanted the attention. to that you because even
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: it was different because you came back looking so disheveled
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: and hurt and everything more than disheveled obviously I was
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: like it's not like the two of them had a
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: little romance and then she came back and was like
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: I was trapped in a room whatever that's why I
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: believe you and then also I was like but if
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: you were to believe the thing it there is something
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: about when you're in a relationship with someone that you
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: feel like he doesn't care about me anymore, he doesn't
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: love me. Well, now he'll love me and be appreciative.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: At any moment when you came back, were you like,
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: maybe this will be, I'm going to lie and say
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: it's these women because I'm scared of him. And I'm
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: scared that Keith will get weird that I was with man,
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: but maybe he'll like, be so great that we can
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: be together for a lifetime. What was your thoughts about
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: the relationship with Keith once you were released?
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: Well, let's go back to the very first moment that
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: he saw me.
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: Keith.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: I'm presuming that you watched the Hulu documentary as well.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: So you've heard Keith's side of things and you hear
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Keith saying, I didn't believe her right off the jump.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Like when he first saw me, he didn't believe me
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: and he thought that I was lying. That's his statement.
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: Which I don't believe because I remember watching him, and
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: he was like, we just need her privacy. She is very,
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: you know, physically hurt. The police, everybody said that in
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: the news, that you were physically, extremely... Broken. Hurt. Like,
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: physically hurt. And so when I saw the Hulu doc,
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: I was like... Well, whatever fits at the time.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: That's not what you originally said.
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Whatever benefits in him at the time, he'll use.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: But.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: So let's go back to that day, right? So it's
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: not like he was like this loving, gracious husband that
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: was like, oh my God, my wife is found. When
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: I was on the side of the road and I
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: was finally able to convince law enforcement officers to allow
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: me to call my husband, it wasn't like this, oh
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: my God, honey, you hear me doing that? Babe, I'm alive.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Oh my God, I want to go home. I don't
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: know where I am. You hear Keith go, where are you?
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: What happened?
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Flat affect, no love, no nothing. And then when we
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: get to the hospital, it's not like he was like,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: I need to see my wife. Get me in there.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: He became an informant and they wired him to interrogate me.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: And he worked with law enforcement before he even came
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: in to see me. Because you see in his documentary,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: law enforcement's continuing to say, bro, she might have been
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: cheating on you because we have all of these. So
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: he was building up all of this hatred for me
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: and all of this like, presumption that I was cheating
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: on him. So he can try and slip it in there,
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: whoever he was, but it's unraveled pretty quickly. If you
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: just follow his narrative that constantly changes, mine's never changed
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: other than the identity of my kidnapper. But when it
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: comes to me, I've never, I've never changed. I've always
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: said that I was held against my will. Brutally tortured.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: And you described the room exactly as it was.
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: With the chain on the weird different closet, the way
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: it was placed in the closet, the coffee table, everything. Yes.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: His story shifts constantly and it's still shifting.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: So do you believe, because the thing is, if you
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: believe the hoax, if you believe the hoax, it's so
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: infuriating to any parent, especially a mom, that you would
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: put people through thinking that, or your kids, someone having
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: to maybe on day 20 say, actually, mommy's in the clouds. Like,
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: did any, but did he, do you believe, or did
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: he ever say, I thought you were dead? Did he
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: ever tell the kids, I don't know that mom's coming home?
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: What did they tell the kids?
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: I wasn't part of that discussion, but what I recall
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: what Keith did is he told tyler because violet was
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: too young to even comprehend what was going on is
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: that mommy went for a run and got lost okay
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: and then it wasn't until years and years later that
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: there was more of a process with the kids but
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: what keith initially told tyler was that i went for
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: a run and i was just lost in that he
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: was looking.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: For me which is an appropriate thing to tell of
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: course a child when the mom is missing sure but
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: um Do you think he went to bed at night
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: thinking you were dead? Or do you always think he
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: thought that something else was happening, that you were alive somewhere?
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: Or do you think he did think you had been murdered?
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, I would think someone's gone for 22 days.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: It's very rare that they come back alive. There's the
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: young girl, the young Mormon girl that was kidnapped from
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: her bed, that she's like the only one besides you
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: That I've heard, you know, and there's a few. There's
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: some with a, you know, there's some with these girls
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: and they've been, you know, had their captors' children and
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: stuff many years later. But there's very, very few stories
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: that someone is held captive and truly like living somewhere
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: for a longer time. That's why they say, if we
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: don't find you in 48 hours or 72 hours, it's
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: like the chances are so slim. What do you think
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: he thought?
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: I think... As soon as Keith started getting the indication
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: that there was potential cheating, that he was wishing I
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: was dead.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: I always think that, too, about, you know, like, yeah,
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: was he not that concerned if, in fact, you died? Like,
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: you know, the Scott Peterson case. Scott Peterson, he's in
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: prison for killing his pregnant wife.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: And I had said, if you believe he is innocent
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: because he was a cheater, maybe when she went missing,
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: he was a cheater. He didn't care for her. And
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: maybe when she went missing, he wasn't overly concerned because
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: he was kind of like relieved. Like, do you think
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: there was a kind of where he was like, if
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: she's dead, I don't really care because I don't. I mean,
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: do you think or do you think he was always like,
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: I got to find I got to find the love
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: of my life?
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: I think two things can be true.
• 47:39
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: I think Keith went through a lot during that time.
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: You know, and I think that it, for him, it
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: probably changes pretty often.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: And do you think he did now in the, in
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: your documentary, there was a female FBI agent who said,
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: we advised Keith from doing so many interviews, but he
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: really wanted to. And I didn't know if it was because,
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, we knew he'd been cleared. They cleared him.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: We knew he wasn't the murderer. So I was like,
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: so then what is the point of doing all these things?
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: What do you think his point was?
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I can tell you after he continued
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: to be engaged in media. I remember afterwards I was
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: begging him not to do 2020 because I was so
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: broken and needing him and trying to recover. And that
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: was the most important thing to him was getting on camera.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: So wait, what happens? You came home and then how
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: soon after? He just did a 20-20 without you, right?
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Like a few days, maybe a week, something like that.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: It really, it was really soon. Like I was still recovering,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: like health-wise, I was still unable to even keep food down.
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: What did he say? I wish I would have found
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: that and watched that. What did he say in that interview?
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: That my body was really broken and the whole... narrative
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: about it being females and he was just really talking
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: about the gruesome injuries mostly I didn't I can't remember
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: it was so long ago I think.
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: That's what I remember too so but I still remember
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: like there were so many unanswered questions that we'd ever got, which,
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: you know, and then even.
• 49:20
  Speaker 6: And.
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: Then the other part is if you were really looking
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: for fame, like my made up story from the, you know,
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: 30 years ago, I was like, why, why don't we
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: hear her doing things? Why isn't she starting a YouTube channel?
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Why isn't she, you know, and which again, You know,
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: is why I believe you. Because I'm like, if you
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: did this, why did you stay in your house and
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: live such like a weird private life?
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Six and a half years. I said nothing. Six and
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: a half years.
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: And so you stayed married for six and a half years.
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: And did you ever do another job working?
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: Well, in the middle of that, COVID happened.
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's right.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: So we were all traumatized by that. But that means
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: that I was homeschooling my children.
• 50:12
  Speaker 6: Oh, okay.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: And it was the best thing ever.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: I loved it. I loved homeschooling the kids. I had
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: this studio that I was using for sewing and painting,
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: and it was like a little art studio. And I
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: removed everything and made it into this full classroom. Like,
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: you walk in and think that you were on a
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: school campus with whiteboards and chalkboards and a library and
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: desks and everything.
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: It was legit. So at that time, you were living...
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: You liked that time in your life. Yeah. What was
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: your day-to-day with Keith during that time?
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Horrible. He had started going back to work, but it
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: was just like six long years of interrogation.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: He would ask you about the kidnapping?
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: Every day. Every day.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: And you would always say it's those two women? Or
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: did you ever, or what? How would you get through
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: an interrogation every day asking about this?
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: It was brutal. It was brutal. It was like he
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: kept just trying to catch me every day.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: And what would he say? Like, just give me an
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: example of how it would be.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: One of the things that he said to me was
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: during when James was there. So during the abduction of 2016,
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: November 2nd, 2016, he said, well, you didn't scream. You
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: didn't try to run. So why would I think that
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: you were kidnapped? That was one of the questions.
• 51:43
  Speaker 7: He liked to say all the time.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: And how would you respond?
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Delicately as possible. It's like one of those, like someone
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: saying that she's raped and the people say, what was
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: she wearing? Yeah. That's how it was with Keith. That's
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: what it was like to be interrogated with him.
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: You just wanted to like end the conversation as quickly
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: as possible.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: I would shut down most of the time. Everything I
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: could do to avoid, I avoided.
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: And did you continue to have.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, there were so many moments where I almost broke.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: So many moments. But for me, based on my personality
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: as well, engaging with me using fear as a tactic
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: to break me, it doesn't work. It really doesn't. If
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: he would have been kind or if he would have
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: offered safety or if, for example... His sister, Suzanne, I
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: was living with her and she's a therapist. And so
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: she has all of these.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: But hold on. But that's after the six and a
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: half years.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Suzanne was able to say, I
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: don't care what your answer is. I'm offering you unconditional love.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: And no matter what your answer is, we'll work through it.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: I don't care if it's all made up. I don't
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: care what it is.
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: She took you in after the cops explained.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: After I was arrested.
• 52:55
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: After it was exposed.
• 52:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: And that's his sister.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: And that's not what Keith did.
• 52:59
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm getting to is he was never like,
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy you're alive and I'm glad that you're
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: home and no matter what, we'll get through it. It
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: was like, I know you're fucking lying. Oh, I'm sorry.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: No, that's fine. You can say it.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: I know you're lying. I know that there's something that
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: doesn't fit here. And if I find out, I'm bringing
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: the world down on your head. I'm taking your children.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: I'm taking everything you own. So don't let me find out.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: It wasn't ever like, Just tell me. It was like threat, threat, threat, threat, threat, threat, threat.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: And that just made me double down more. It just
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: made me clam up more.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: That threat that you said, I'm taking your children. So
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: we see that you, that he, after seeing that you had,
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: you know, a texting emotional affair with somebody, he has
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: a post-nup agreement saying if you're ever caught cheating, you
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: will leave with not one dime and without your kids,
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: which- would never be held up because children are not possessions.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: They are to Keith.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: But was this document really made by an actual attorney
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: or did he just type it up and you signed
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: it like, let's not fight about the couch, we both
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: want it, let's sign it, whatever. Like, what was it?
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: It's both. So the thing with postnuptial agreements is generally
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: when you have a prenup or a postnup, you have
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: to have individual lawyers that oversee the document. You don't
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: generally have the same lawyer Because it's kind of a
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: conflict of interest. I wasn't granted that opportunity. It was
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: the same lawyer. So it was a post-nuptial agreement that
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: was made after he had caught me texting another guy,
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: the one from Michigan. And he drew it up. He
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: drafted it. He was in complete control over it. And
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: then when we sat and had it reviewed by the attorney,
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: he was sitting right next to me. So it's not
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: like I had the.
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: And you're just like, fine.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't have the opportunity to object.
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: And if we would have had the... The time and
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: the capacity to defend that more clearly in court, not
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: when I was in prison, it probably would have gotten
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: thrown out. But we didn't have that opportunity. He pushed
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: for the trial as fast as possible. And so he won.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: He won.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: And it was taken into evidence. And there are so
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: many problems with it. But we didn't have an opportunity
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: to have an appropriate defense of it. And? Because I
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: was in prison.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: Right. So now were there times where during those six
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: years that you were just like, I should say something
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: because James is dangerous. And what if he does this
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: to his next girlfriend? Exactly. Exactly. You thought of that?
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: I thought of that this entire time.
• 55:42
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 55:42
  Speaker 7: But for me, You know, now I'm a lot stronger.
• 55:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: But before, I was shell-shocked and barely able to make
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: eye contact with people and I was just broken. But
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: what mattered the most was my babies. I just wanted
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: to be home. I wanted one more day with them.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: I wanted one more month with them. I just wanted
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: to be home with the kids and that was my
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: primary focus. It's different now. Yeah.
• 56:04
  Speaker 7: And I've been through everything and now I'm not with
• 56:06
  Speaker 7: Keith and I'm not afraid to say.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: That I have an emotional affair. I'm not afraid to.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Well, you have nothing to lose now.
• 56:11
  Speaker 4: Oh, I'm at work.
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: Now, the other thing that is where I think people
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: may not believe you, is the Hobby Lobby branding tool.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: That when the report came out, it almost was a
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: little comical that it was bought at Hobby Lobby. Like
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: it was just weird when, you know, first when we heard,
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: first when we believed that somebody took you and branded you,
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: that was, you know, horrible and strange and weird. But
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: it's still then when it was no, she said, go
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: to Hobby Lobby, get this branding thing and do it,
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: which they have the scene in the Lifetime movie. Do
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: it because I want it.
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: It's.
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: I mean.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: I saw that in prison, by the way, when that
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: came out.
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: And did you watch with other girls?
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: God bless Jamie King. She was so lovely. She put
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: a thing out on her. Instagram. She was so nice
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: and said, obviously there's more to the story for this
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: poor woman and let's give her grace or whatever she said.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: It was so.
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: At the time or just recently?
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when she was playing me in the movie, she
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: was so gracious and so kind.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's awesome.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: But everybody watched it in prison. I mean, like the
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: chairs were lined up out into the hallway to watch
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: it and I was humiliated. It was absolutely awful because
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: as you know, it's a Lifetime movie, so it's built
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: off of the headlines and headlines are built To be
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: salacious and for clickbait. And so it's like they were
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: just grasping at everything that they could. And it was horrifying.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, for goodness sakes, the opening scene is me
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: being intimate with my ex-husband. And I had to watch
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: that in prison while all the girls are going... Oh,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: my God. It was horrible.
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: Where did you watch it? Were you in the front
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: row or the back?
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: No, actually, I didn't want to watch it. But I
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: had a group of girls that were like, if you
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: don't go, we're dragging you in there and strapping you
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: to the chair you're going.
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: They were being mean or they were being nice?
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: Both.
• 58:11
  Speaker 7: Both.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: It did me no favors in prison. I can tell
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: you that much.
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: So.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: And. Prison definitely changed me a bit.
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: What's... How did it... Wait, give me back to the
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: branding and then I want to talk about prison. There's
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: a lot.
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: So when you in the documentary go, I did these
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: crafty things and I would buy... I had a branding
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: thing from Hobby Lobby and we would talk about how
• 58:38
  Speaker 3: I was making these little wood coasters with like initials
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: in them or whatever. So did he.
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: Did that give him the idea like, oh, I'm into
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: S & M. I'm going to get this branding stuff
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: for when we get together. Or did you think he
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: bought it midway through your time there? Like where in
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: the 22 days to your best ability did he brand
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: you with that Hobby Lobby brander?
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: I would say it was in the middle because my
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: arm happened first. So James is fascinated by the process
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: of tattooing. So it was more about this process that
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: he was kind of obsessed with where skin would keloid
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: and kind of look similar to a tattoo. So I
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: would presume since we'd been talking on the phone and
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: I had talked about the woodcrafting that I had done,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: that he got the idea of it. And I'm a
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: country girl. You know, we talked about things like that
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: as well. Branding and it's just a normal everyday part
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: of living when you live in the country and things
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: like that, which is what I'm around. But I can
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: recall very clearly we had conversations about a gift that
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: I was making my husband at the time and that
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: there was letters associated with it and things like that.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: But to conclude that that's why it was there and
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: why I wanted it. It's almost like saying somebody was
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: murdered with a bat. So now we're going to go
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: and arrest every baseball player. You know, I, I didn't
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: ask to be branded and I didn't ask for him
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: to use the instrument from Hobby Lobby, but it is
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: something that had came up in conversation before.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: So then we get to the day of the viral video.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: They call you in again to the interrogation room with
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: your husband. Oh, we just have a couple more questions.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: Going in that day, were you scared at all? Did
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: you sense that it was– because they'd been checking in
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: with you over the years asking other questions, right? Or
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: had a whole chunk of time gone where you haven't
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: heard boo?
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: They touched in. No, it was– I mean, they were
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: building their investigation for years.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: And did you think they knew at that time or
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: were you just like, oh, they're just going to ask
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: me more questions?
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: I was totally blindsided.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: You were blindsided.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: And what happened immediately after that? We see that Keith
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: is like, I'm done or whatever, gets up and or
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: he leaves. And you're like, no, no, it's James.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: James, what?
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: Like what happened right after that?
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: I had to get in the car and go home
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: with him, which was absolutely terrifying. And then he put
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: my belongings in trash bags and kicked me out.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: That day? And where did you go that night?
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: My parents came and picked me up and I went to.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: And at that point? Did you have to break the
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: news to your parents that this whole time it was
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: James and....
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: No, I wasn't arrested yet. They just... So after that interrogation...
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: But did.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: You tell your parents, pick me up, Keith and I
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: are done, but you didn't tell them why?
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 5: No.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: So after that last interrogation, nearly a year went by
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: before I was arrested. So a lot more time had
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: passed after that interrogation. It wasn't like, I had that
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: interrogation and immediately after that I was arrested. Nearly a
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: year had gone by. So when I called mom and dad,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: it was Keith and I had had a really big fight.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: My stuff's in trash bags and I need to get
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: out of here. And then I went to his Aunt
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: Pam's house until we could figure out what was happening
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: and where we would go from there.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: So we see in the documentary that the detective We
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: hear the audio from the detective going to the Costa
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: Mesa house where you were there for 22 days and
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: saying to James, we know you guys were together. And
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: I clearly thought the detective was letting him know, just
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: say what we want you to say. You can't be
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: arrested for kidnapping if someone made you do it. And again,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: I'm like, what kind of person goes along with hey,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: I hate my husband so much. Can you pick me
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: up and then beat the shit out of me? I
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: don't want to, but I will. Like, that's why I
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: was like, yes, I totally see why this is. And
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: it's just strange that this guy that, you know, you
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: said he kind of came from a troubled background with
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: his parents in and out of prisoner drugs and stuff.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: Why no one would, why they were so set to
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: not believe you and immediately, like, it sounded like they
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: kind of gave him this out. Just say that she
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: asked you to pick you up. And he goes, she's
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: a friend, just a friend. I'm just trying to help
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: her out. And that's the part. Like, if you didn't
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: come back physically, beat the fuck up.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: Then it would be hard for as many people to
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: believe your story now. That's what I personally think as
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: someone who's followed it in a viewer. That's why I do.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm like, who is this guy? And what's
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: he doing now? He lives in Phoenix, living off the
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: 89-year-old grandfather. I'm like, yeah, you're a loser. You're a weirdo.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: You're a loser or a weirdo.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: And like, Completely informal investigation on James. I mean, they'd
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: already had years of building a case against me, but
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: we also have to remember there was missteps by law enforcement.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: So by having me fall on my sword and taking
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: all of the accountability, it releases the accountability of anyone
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: else involved. So if they build a strong enough case
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: against me and they manipulate the evidence enough that it
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: builds a strong enough case against me and they charge
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: me for moral turpitude, meaning my testimony is no longer valid,
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: then it eliminates it coming back and biting them in
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: the ass later. Because law enforcement knew that James existed
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: and they knew that we were conversing in the very beginning.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: And that's a pretty big misstep on law enforcement's part.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: And then they have this informal investigation. They don't build
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: an investigation on their lead suspect potentially. And they close
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: the case as fast as possible. That presumes some issues there.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: Also leading or coercing a confession.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: And did they give him, like, a deal? Like, say this,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: and you're going to sign this thing. We'll never, like,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: just like when someone turns on a co-conspirator for a murder.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: Say who hired you or whatever. Say this, and then
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: we won't prosecute you, too. Is that what they did?
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: Did they give him something and say, say this confession,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: and we'll never come after you again?
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: What's interesting about that is we have the interrogation tapes, right,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: where they interview James. and a portion of it is
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: cut out. So it pauses, and we see a length
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: of time go by, and then it continues. We'll never
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: know what was said, and we'll never know what was offered,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: because it pauses, and a length of time goes by.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: So I have no idea. What I do know is
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: James' record is not the same. So the records that
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: are out there are not the same that they were.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: You mean he had some run-ins with the law that
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: is now gone?
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: I've picked him up from jail when we were together,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: and somehow he just has a clean record now. I
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: really don't know the details of that. I don't know
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: what's happened, but I do know that James has had
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: trouble with law enforcement.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: Been arrested or whatever.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And what his charges are and what happened in
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: his life from when we broke up, it's kind of
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: like someone started as an amateur and then they get
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: to professional level. Whatever happened in those years that he
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: and I weren't talking, something happened to make him this sicker,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: darker individual. And whatever his record is or anything that
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: happened in the meantime, I don't know. I don't know
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: what they gave him. I just know, based on the
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: interrogation tapes, they gave him a way out. And they
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: gave him... They led him through it. That's definitely what
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: it seems like. So you....
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: Talk to attorneys. You have attorneys. And how did you
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: come to the conclusion that the best thing for you
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: and your family is to take the plea, which is
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: 18 months, but you got out in 10 because there's
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: no way out of this because technically you lied to
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: the government. And even if they, so who, how did
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: you realize that was your only choice?
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: Well, when I started talking to my defense attorney and
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: we discussed what it would be like to go to
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: a trial, first of all, I had no money. So
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: it wasn't really an option for me. And it's the FBI.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: It's not like it was a trial, James Reyes versus
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: Sherry Bepini. It was Sherry Bepini versus the United States
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: federal government. And that means they have endless resources to
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: draw out a trial and to drain me of my resources,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: to drain me of my most precious resource, which is
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: time with my children and And it was going to
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: be something that was going to go on and on
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: and on and on. Because what do they care? You
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: don't care if a trial lasts forever. And at the
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: end of that trial, however long that it would be,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: however expensive it would be, I still lied. So a
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: sentence would be passed regardless. And I knew that it
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: was wrong. And I wanted to demonstrate my remorse and
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: my accountability. First and foremost, I knew that keeping James
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: a secret was wrong. And so that was the best
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: way that I could demonstrate remorse. take my accountability, and
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: deal with the situation at hand without going through a
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: lengthy trial because it wouldn't be justice. It wouldn't be
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: James is going to go to jail at the end
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: of it because he's found guilty. It's the United States
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: federal government.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't stand it. Didn't have a chance. Didn't have
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: a shot.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: And so you agree to do that. And what is prison...
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: what is it like because I always I'm like fascinated
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: like how when you're the the pretty white girl who's
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: also famous How do you survive? Like, if I went in,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: I would just, like, start imitating the guards or something,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: just try to, like, let them know I'm funny because clearly, like,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: it would be difficult. How did you make friends?
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: I think you do fine in prison. You would, like,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: run the entire prison by the time you got out there.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 4: No, I don't.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: Like, honestly, but no.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: Like how like off the bat were women like mean
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 3: and scary or was it because what kind of criminals
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: were they just all everything or were we with murderers
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: or were like white collar? What was it?
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: It's kind of a melting pot. So there's a wide
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: variety of different charges in there. And it's it's not
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: it's the level of security. Right. So there's a couple
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: of different ways to make up the population of Victorville
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: federal prison camp. That's the lowest amount of security. So
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: we have The prison camp, medium security, maximum security. And
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: that is based on the level of your crime, right?
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: So you were in the camp?
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: I was in the camp, which is the lowest level
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: of security. So it's like fraud and lying to a
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: federal officer. Or we have other inmates that have spent
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: a really long time incarcerated and have spent enough time
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: that they've gotten their points lower. So they qualify for
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: being at a camp. So there was people in there
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: that were child molesters. There were people in there that
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: aggravated assault and things like that. There was quite a
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: few people, but they'd been incarcerated for 10, 20 years
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: at that point. So they qualified for being in a camp.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: So it was a lot of different. Were you in
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: a cell with another person? Like what was your sleeping situation?
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: It was kind of like the inside of a Costco.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: So it was very bare, open concept, open warehouse almost
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: with these cement barricades and two metal bunks. And so
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: it was a very small cell without a door. And
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: very open concept. Like when you're on the top bunk,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: the bed is a little bit higher than where the
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: cement is. So everyone can see you as well as
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: you can see everyone else. There was not a whole
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: lot of privacy. And then it's kind of like open concept,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: locker room, bathroom style.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: Getting back to, you know, obviously you regret saying it
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: was two women. But I'm guessing your biggest regret is
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: that you gave them an ethnicity. That must have. I'm sorry.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: Like I, I'm so sorry. I wish that I could
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: apologize until the end of time. So sorry. And I
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: wish that, you know, it was something that I had
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: more control over. Obviously the race issue has been around
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: for a long time and it didn't help. And I'm so,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: I deeply regret that. It was just to try and
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: provide the littlest fragment of James's identity that I could.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: You know, it really had nothing to do about trying.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: Because you said in just giving the sketch artist something,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: you focused on two women in his life, his mom
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: and like what? Who was the other girl, a cousin
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: or something?
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: Cousin's wife.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: And but then why give them the mask? Why not
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: give them a whole face? I was too scared.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: I was too scared. I mean, I wanted to get
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: them there, but I just, I froze. By the time
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: we got to that part in the sketch, which by
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: the way, I did not want to do.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: And they say that like I was enthusiastic to do
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: the sketch.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: I didn't.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: And it took so long to do the sketch because
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: I refused to participate in it for so long. Keith
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: Papini wanted me to do the sketch and he pushed
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: and pushed and pushed and pushed. Like you hear the
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: officer say he was very pushy and he just kept
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: getting in the way. So he really tried to control
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: the investigation. from day one. Um, but I didn't want to,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to do the sketch.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: I really didn't.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: So it was like, if I could cover right here down,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: then I could at least satisfy that. Like, well, they
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: didn't have everything. So even if he sees it clearly,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: James would see that I'm trying to sketch his mom,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: but it's not incredibly clear. It was just a really
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: hard choice.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: And then when he does the Hulu doc, he goes
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: this complete other route. saying basically that you were doing
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: Munchausen's by proxy, that you were making your kids sick
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: because he said you'd soak a thing of alcohol and
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: like put that near their body. And I have to
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: tell you, when I saw the Hulu doc, I was like, wow,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: this is weird. Like, oh my God, because I'm obsessed
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: with like Munchausen's by proxy too. But the way you
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: explained it in your doc made a lot of sense.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: Because you have sensitive skin and have gotten rashes and
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: they had sensitive skin. So instead of doing a Vicks rub,
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: you would do like a peppermint, like essential oils or
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: something and put it on a cloth so that the
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: breathing could be better. Why do you think he went from,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: do you think he really, do you think he knew
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: that you were just doing an innocent essential oils thing?
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: Or do you think he then was putting a story
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: together for himself to be? so cruel?
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: In my opinion, I think Keith Papini does not want
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: anyone to know who he really is. And so the
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: more attention you can get spent on villainizing me, the
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: less you look at him. And he's very invested in
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: his image. Unfortunately, in family law, what we see a
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: lot is when you have a toxic ex, false allegation
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: claims are made. It's pretty common, which is horrifying, but
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: it's pretty common. Unfortunately, this lie that he's concocted doesn't
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: even make sense. You can't make somebody sick from inhaling
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: rubbing alcohol. It's similar to like smelling salts, for example.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: So the lie that he concocts doesn't even hold up.
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: It dissolves pretty quickly. I would never harm my children, ever.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 4: I went to extreme lengths to do natural things with them.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 4: I've never tried to make them sick. There's no.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 4: Hospital visits or anything that demonstrates that I would ever
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 4: harm my children. And as you see in the other documentary,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: it's concluded as unfounded. And the lengths that he went
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 4: through to accuse my daughter is.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 6: Horrifying.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 4: It's heartbreaking.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 3: To have your daughter say it, you mean?
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: To use her in the way that he has. And
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: the doc. I would never hurt my kids, ever.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's the one weapon that he has and it, it,
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: it ruined everything. When that allegation came out, it was like,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: they went through it and then they're like, oh, well,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: we've lost it.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 4: She's hurt her kids.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: You know, he knew what it was going to do.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: He knew the ramifications of it. And what's most invaluable
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: and important to him, in my opinion, is making me
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: look as bad as possible. So you stopped looking at
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: him and he stops gaining any culpability in his behavior
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: that he did but that act in and of itself
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: is pretty terrible it's it's.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: Well i mean yeah i mean that's why it's the
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: like you said no.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: No i i'm minute you talk about my kids.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah but i mean you know you're right it's the
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: ultimate um thing that happens in toxic divorces and you
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: know there are women that say the ultimate lie and
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: say that the father is sexually abusing the kids and
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: it's not true. And, you know, and, you know, in cases,
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: in those cases, I know friends that, I know one
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: person that believes that, you know, thought there could be something,
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: but if, but her attorney's like, if you say it
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 3: and it's not true, then the courts are so mad
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: at you for accusing.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: Of sexual abuse that then you will lose, you will lose.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: Which it's like, what are you supposed to do? But,
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: you know, so he says this on the doc, which
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: then adds to the narrative. So, you know, you touch
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: a little bit on the fact that, that, um, you
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: were sexually, um, molested as a child by a family
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 3: person or someone within your family. And, um, There were
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 3: experts that spoke about that. And I know that is
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 3: a result of a child being traumatized is, you know,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: doing what you did, disassociation, pleasing. But also there have been,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 3: you know, there is a pattern sometimes where children then
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: do go on to lie, to not tell the truth.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: do you cover that like in the book about how
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: that has happened? Because were there other things like, were
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: there other things that prior to this that people could
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 3: say you've lied about, you got caught in a lie
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: that might be a result of you living from this trauma?
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that frankly, there's theories out there. Sure.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of people like we all live
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: our lives. We have enemies. There are people I may
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: not have been kind to back in the day. There
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: are people that I had tumultuous relationships with. You have
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: to have evidence, though, to back up what you're saying.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: So there is yet to be anything where someone has
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: come out with something like that, where there's like an
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: excessive amount of evidence to back up what they're saying. Unfortunately,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: because my words don't hold as much weight, it's even
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: more difficult for me to back up anything that I
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: say from here on out.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: Well, it's also a pattern of when you've been abused
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: as a child, you often do, unfortunately, end up with
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: abusive partners, which that seems to be a pattern of yours.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 3: You know, I mean, you left, yeah, you left like,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: you know, someone, you know, not physically, but not a
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: great husband and then went to the worst. And so
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: like in doing your therapy and stuff, do you, so
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 3: you get into that in the book, a little explaining
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: and what you- The entire book.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: What's really cool about the book is you watch this progression.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: Like I go into depth about the progression of early
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: childhood up until now, the things that I've learned, the
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: progress that I've made, the journey of self-discovery where things
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: have unfolded. And it's just steeped in this like mental
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: health language in there. And it's been really exceptionally extraordinary
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: to be able to understand myself and figure out where
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: I came from and why I behave this way and
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: what defense structures I have.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 7: And what caused where I am. And it's all from
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 7: start to finish.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: Now, can we talk about a little bit? So you
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: get out of prison, you go, you have like a
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 3: little halfway house situation. What was that like?
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: The halfway house was horrible. I would have rather spent
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: my entire time incarceration in prison.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: Really? Why?
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: Well, the halfway house was in Oakland. The day that
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: I arrived, the following morning, it was surrounded by police
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: officers because there was a dead body down the street
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: in front of the halfway house. We weren't allowed to
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: go outside anymore because someone had been stabbed in the
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: front and shot in the back. So it wasn't in
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: the best part of town, one would say. There wasn't
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: really a whole lot of time that would go by
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: without hearing sirens as well. And it was a mixture
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: of men and women. So it was both men and women.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: There was 74 men and four women in the halfway
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: house with doors that did not lock.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: So it was like a dormitory then, not a house. Okay.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: I was imagining like a five-bedroom house that they had
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 3: converted to a facility.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: It was like a compound. And it was disgusting. Disgusting.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was like trying to wash my clothes
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: in a garbage can. upstairs and fighting the cockroaches as
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: well um and there was a there was even a
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: rat issue.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 3: And why did you have to do that at all
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: like why that was just part of.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: It's just part of the way that the bureau of
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: prisons operate and for me i was so enthusiastic to
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: get out of prison that i was like yay halfway
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: house and i had no idea what it was like
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: i wish that i could have gone back but it
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: was and how long did you have to be there
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: six weeks about six.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: Weeks and then you leave there and then you Go where?
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: To your mom's?
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: To my mom and dad's.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: Okay. And you're still close to your sister-in-law.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: And so then you... Is that when you start with
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: the therapist that we see in Hulu? I mean, sorry,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: not Hulu. In your doc, the Max docs?
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: No, I'd actually started seeing him. So this is an interesting...
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever talked about this part. This
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: is an interesting part of the story. So... I was
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: seeing a previous therapist for a really long time. I
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: got a reasonable amount of EMDR, which is fantastic.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: And that stands for?
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. So they utilize the left
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: brain and the right brain by using like a wand
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: or something like that to activate left brain and right
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: brain to calm the sympathetic nervous system in relation to PTSD.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: It's a phenomenal treatment and it helped so much when
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: it came to my treatment. The FBI was starting to
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: build their case against me. So the funding for witness
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: something or other had gotten caught off. So I wasn't
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: able to continue with.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 7: That therapist because I couldn't pay her.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: Keith had complete control of the finances and he wouldn't
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: allow me to go to therapy anymore. And I had
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: lost her and I was just lost. Like I was
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: desperate and lost. And she was like the one place
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: I could go where Keith wasn't tracking me or watching
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: me or had this freedom. And I was starting to
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: really break down. And Suzanne, his sister, said, I have
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: this therapist. Why don't you meet him on Zoom and
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: see what you think? He takes pro bono cases on occasion.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: And why don't we meet with him together so we'll
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: have a couple of Zoom sessions where you can meet Dr.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: Diggs and you can start therapy with him. I was
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: still married to Keith at the time. It was prior
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: to my arrest. And I had started seeing Dr. Diggs
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: secretly Because unless this therapist had been previously vetted by Keith,
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: he wasn't allowed. And he hadn't. Keith doesn't particularly care
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: for Suzanne.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: His sister.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: Because she was someone that, well, actually, I don't want
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: to speak for why he likes her and why he doesn't.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: I just know Suzanne was the one family member who,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: if Keith did something shitty to me or he was
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: rude to me, she'd stick up for me. And she'd go, no, no, no,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: don't do that.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: Like if you're at an event or something? Mm-hmm.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: There was a long time ago while we were married,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: Suzanne had sent Keith an email saying, I've picked up
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: on some really bad behavior and Sherry's told me about
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: some things. And I'd like to talk about that because
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: you're going down a really dangerous road and I don't
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: like what I see, but I love you and I'm
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: here for you. So can we talk about it?
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 3: What's their age difference?
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: A couple of years.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, close.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: I think three years. Oh, that's close.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: Um, And he ghosted her and started cutting communication. And
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: then suddenly I wasn't allowed to go spend the night
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: at Suzanne's house anymore. And I wasn't allowed to see Suzanne.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: And there was this alienation that happened between her and I.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: And then I reached out to Suzanne because I hadn't
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: seen my therapist in a while. And I really needed that.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: And so she connected me with Dr. Diggs. And in fact,
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: there was a time, it was like when maybe we
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: had like a couple months of therapy session. So we'd
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: met with each other maybe three or four times and
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: it was in the studio. So I would have these
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: zoom sessions, right? And I closed the sliding glass door
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: and I locked it because we were about to start
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: talking about some of the more sexual issues that I
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: was suffering.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 7: And Keith tried the door and it was locked.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: And so he's outside the door now banging on the door,
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: screaming at me through the door, not knowing that the
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: laptop is open. And I have a doctor and his
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: sister on the other end while he's banging down the
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: door and screaming at me. Now, Dr. Diggs doesn't treat Keith,
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: so he can't talk about it. But I had two
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: witnesses of Keith banging down the door and screaming at
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: me just because the door was locked because I didn't
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: want the kids to walk in on that conversation.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: And then he found out what I was doing and
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: tried to shut it down immediately and said that, you know,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: this is my sister and this is Diggs and I
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: don't get to be present during the therapy session. So
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: you absolutely cannot see him. So I just secretly see Dr.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: Diggs as well.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 3: And when you were in prison, was there any kind
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 3: of therapy they offered you there?
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: Not particularly. They're not, you know, you would think that
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: they're trying to rehabilitate to try and lower the rate
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: of recidivism. So re-offending, but no, not really. The therapy
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: that I got was, getting engaged with some very incredible women,
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: sharing stories and having moments of deep vulnerability and really
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: experiencing some deep relationships with some really incredible women in there.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 3: You keep in touch with some of them?
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: Within the parameters of my current probation.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: Not really.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah. What was the food like?
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Disgusting. Um, So I had a job.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: When you go to prison, you have to work. And
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: when I say work, I mean, it's hard labor and
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: you get 12 cents an hour to do it. And
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: you're working eight, 10, 12 hour days in the heat,
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: in the desert of Victorville. And so I had this
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 2: job for a short period of time at the food
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: service warehouse. So on the compound, we have maximum security prison.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: So murderers and rapists and child molesters in the men's compound.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: We'd hear the rubber bullets flying and the Oh, the
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: men's was near you? I could see it from the track. Yeah,
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: you could see them. Oh, it was horrifying. And like
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: I said, you can hear them from the compound. And
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: then we had two medium security locations that were on
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: the same compound as well. So the food service warehouse,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: the females took care of it. The prison camp, it's
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: all run by inmates. There's no staff there. There's guards
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: that do the count, but we run the entire facility.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: So we're at the food service warehouse, which means I'm
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: handling the food and building the pellets. I'm lifting these
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: huge 50 pound bags and trying to distribute it to
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: all the men's facilities as well. And I noticed some food,
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: it's like not just a couple of weeks expired, it's
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: like years expired. And then there's other boxes that say
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: not for human consumption. So we're like eating the meat
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: that would be made. into like dog food or um
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: you know i watch these other women drive a forklift
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: into a bag and all the frozen meat would come
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: out and then they just stuff it back in and
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: wrap it with tape or like there was a time
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: where We get the shredded pork, right? Yeah. And there
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: was like a nipple, like a full cow or pig.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: It's so bad.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 3: It's so bad. Would you just luckily, like your parents
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 3: would just give you the money on the books and
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: you'd just have ramen? Or what did you have? Like
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 3: what could you get from the little concessions?
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: You know, prison's expensive because if you don't have commissary,
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: if you're just indigent, you have nothing.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: Because you have to buy shampoo and you have to
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: buy– toothpaste and you have to buy a brush and
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: all of these, like you have to buy shower shoes.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: They don't just give them to you.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: The Federal Bureau of Prisons is a business and they
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: make a lot off of the inmates that are there.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: So it's like you'd get out and you'd go to
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: a grocery store and how much do you think you
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: spend on toothpaste, for example?
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 3: For a big tube, I guess, whatever, $ 3. 99. Okay.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: It's probably about $ 12 in prison. Wow. And you have
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: no other options.
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: You know, so, yeah, I had friends and family that
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: were assisting, putting money on my commissary.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 3: Did you have guys reaching out and wanting to be
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: your boyfriend?
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: I got the weirdest mail. I have an entire box
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: full of the weirdest mail that I got in prison.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: I also got a lot of support, too. There were
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of people that were, like, clearly... There's more
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: to the story.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 3: Because at this point we hadn't ever heard you say,
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 3: I'm not lying.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 3: We, you went to prison, us thinking, because we didn't
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 3: really hear you go, no, I didn't want this. We
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 3: never heard it until now. So then we hear the
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 3: promotion for the Mac show and it's like, oh my God.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: Now she says, yes, it was him, but I didn't,
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 3: but I was kidnapped by him, by James. And so
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 3: when they reach out to you, you decide to do it.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 3: And are you pleased with the result? Like when you
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 3: watched it back, obviously you did a lot more footage
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 3: that didn't make it. So you happy with what the story,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 3: how they place the story, or do you wish they
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 3: would have done it differently?
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: It was a complicated process. So in the documentary, you
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: watch me go from like, I mean, obviously you see
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: that it's taken a year. You watch my hair grow
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: out and you watch my body change a little bit
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: because it took an entire year to film the documentary.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: And you kind of watch me go from being poised
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: and demure and fairly quiet to like really and so
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: irritated and agitated. And because again, my director was lovely.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: She did an amazing job and she was absolutely incredible,
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: but we were not friends. You know, she, there was
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: no comfort there.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 3: It was, we're.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: Pushing to, to see how honest she is. And they did,
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: they pushed you. It was grueling. It was incredibly grueling. And,
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: and I gave them full access to everything for just
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: that point and gave them everything that I had in
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: every capacity. But it, it really is. It's grueling to
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: go through similar to this process, but interview after interview
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: after interview after stunt after thing. I mean, it was incredibly.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 3: And you did a lie detector test during that time.
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: I can't remember what was the results that you passed
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 3: it or what happened.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: Hey, I think that the docuseries demonstrates a really stark
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: difference between what we hear from law enforcement, which is
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: that James Ray has passed his polygraph and they say
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: with flying colors or he passed every question, for example.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: And what you see in my polygraph is that it
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: shows that there's a result that was a little bit sticky, right?
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: Because I experienced quite a lot of shame. What that
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: shows is my body has a response to a lie
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: or not even necessarily a lie, but when you bring
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: up a subject, my body is showing a response. which means,
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: which demonstrates I'm not a sociopath. And it demonstrates that
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: there is still quite a lot of shame or remorse
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: or something in there. To say that someone has passed
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: their polygraph with flying colors, with absolutely no showing any
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: lie or expression in any way, kind of leads one
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: to believe that there's not something right up there. Because
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: taking a polygraph is exceptionally difficult. Yeah. It's a very,
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: which is.
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 3: Why it's not used, you know? Right.
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 3: So you get out, you get, you leave the halfway
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 3: house and I did see that you had a boyfriend,
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 3: daily mail, picked it up, but you're no longer with him. Right.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 7: No.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: And what was, can you speak on that? Like how is,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 3: did it end amicably or what's going on? Cause I
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 3: saw you were in court about something about the housing situation.
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: That is a whole sad situation that's going on. So unfortunately,
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: we did not work out for a number of reasons.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: And I haven't really spoken about that relationship much. But
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, there's a lot that he needs to
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 2: work on with himself. And it The ending of our
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: relationship was really unfortunate. Right now we're trying to come
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: to some kind of a settlement and agreement for the
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: location that I'm staying in. And it's wrapped up with
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of immature behaviors and a lot of unfortunate
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: circumstances surrounding it. And I really, I'm trying so hard
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: to be as amicable as possible and as kind as possible.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: And it's really hard when you have someone who's trying to,
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: to hurt you at every turn and trying to harm
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: you at every turn. And it ended really badly. It
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: ended with a lot of harmful things. I mean, there
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: was a lot of sneaky stalking behavior and a lot
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: of control and a lot of things that I didn't expect.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: I've been through quite a lot of abuse, but they
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: come in so many different forms. And this passive-aggressive covert abuse.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: I really wasn't, I'm so used to the overt abuse.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: You know, I really didn't see it coming and I'm,
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: I'm trying the best that I can to get through
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: this as quietly as possible, but it's just not happening anymore.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know, so are you dating anyone now?
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: Right now my primary focus is Tyler and Violet.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: That's where my heart is right now. It's, it's difficult
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: to really have any time for that because I, I
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 2: kind of, I started getting engaged in dipping my toe
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: in that. And it's clear that I really need to
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: focus on tie and buy and on moving forward with
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: my life.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: And is Keith with anyone?
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: I have no idea. Oh.
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 4: I have no idea.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, we see in the documentary, we
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 3: wish you the best with getting, regaining, you know, 50-50 custody.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: I'm hopeful.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's what it should be.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's what it should be for. Everybody, unless
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 3: you really are an abusive parent, you know? So I
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 3: don't know why that's not happening for you, but I
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 3: hope it works out.
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 2: It just takes time. Yeah, it just takes time. We
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: have to have a trial to have the ruling and
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: we haven't had that yet. So it's just gone on
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: and on and on and on. And he's delayed. He's
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 2: really good at delaying in the court. And he's also
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: really good at not following court orders.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 3: And it was, do you feel that the documentary, like
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 3: getting your story out, going and doing some press- I
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 3: would think it would help your case. Do you think
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 3: it'll help? Sharing your story.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: You see in the Hulu documentary, right, that my kids
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: are completely exploited.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 3: In the one that he did.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like borderline. In my opinion, it's borderline child
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: abuse how much they were exploited. It's absurd how much
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 2: they were in the documentary. And when I had gone
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: to the director when they were interested in my piece,
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: I said I absolutely will not participate in any way.
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: If you have my children in here, I do not
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: want my children in here. So anything that you have
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: has to be blurred. They have to be muted. I
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: do not want my children in here in any way.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: I want to protect them as much as possible because
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: they just got horrendously exploited in the last documentary. And
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: that was really valuable to me and really important.
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 3: When they came to you, the, the, the max doc people,
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 3: did they know what your story was, what your truth
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 3: was that you shared? Because, like I said, we just
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 3: thought that you admitted to the lie. It didn't make
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 3: a lot of sense, but we're like, whatever. Obviously, she's crazy.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 3: And you know what I mean? So did they get
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 3: word from anybody else? Like, you should do something on
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 3: Sherry Papini because her story is great. Like, how did
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 3: they know that there was so much more to this?
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: Well, the director... has done quite a few interviews and
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: I love so much what she says is she says, um,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: I made the story that I found. And so when
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: we began the documentary, it's not mine, it's, it's theirs.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: I was just a subject. And so she pushed me really,
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: she was trying the whole time to catch me in
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: a lie and to see what she could find. And
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: she literally made the story that she found, you know,
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: there's bits and pieces in it that are still mess.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, the only part that I thought.
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: But she didn't know what she was going to find.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 3: I thought it was like not a big gotcha is
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 3: when you said, I just tried to make those two
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 3: women look like his mom and the cousin's wife, whatever. And...
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 3: she's like, well, do you know that the mom is
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 3: not Mexican? She's English. And you're like, oh, she is.
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 3: I thought that was pretty awesome. Okay. I'm sorry. Like,
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 3: you know, I was like, yeah, but I really feel
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 3: like there was no other moment really. I don't think
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 3: there was like, like, I don't know, but I could
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 3: see that. But I, you know, that's what makes it
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 3: compelling if it was too much, you know, because honestly,
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 3: when it came out, I was like, oh my gosh,
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: this is kind of reminds me of, um, Casey Anthony
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 3: then coming out and telling her story, which was a
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 3: whole nother story. Like it was like, it was not
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 3: only wasn't me, but it was this thing with my dad.
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 3: And it was, it was just very, it was like
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 3: a whole nother story. And I was like, so is
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: everybody just going to have documentaries where it's like a
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 3: whole nother story, like five years later. And so in
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 3: watching yours, I didn't feel like it, like it was
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 3: that at all.
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 3: And, um, have, had you ever watched gone girl? or
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 3: read the book?
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: No, I have now.
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 3: Okay. So when they were saying it, you were like,
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 3: what is this?
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 2: I watched it and was like, Oh my God, she
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: killed somebody.
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 3: Like that's, she kills the guy in the, yeah. Right.
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: And the only person in this entire story that got
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: hurt was me.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 2: It's crazy to be compared to the gone girl story.
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: That's, That's sad. That's really sad.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 3: Oh, now we have to cut this out. We have
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 3: to cut it out. But were you compensated for the doc?
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 4: No.
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: Subjects aren't paid.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 7: Oh.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting that you say that because I've
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 3: been on docs and I never asked to be paid,
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 3: you know, because that's the way it is. If I
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 3: did an ABC News Nightline thing as a, you know, commentator,
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 3: I didn't get paid. But I do know for certain docs,
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 3: People do get paid because there was I've done like
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 3: entertainment talks about things and then someone will go, what
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 3: did they pay you? And I'm like, I didn't ask. Well,
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 3: and that's why I was wondering if you did.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: They paid for my dinner. They'd pay for my food
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: and like my travel and stuff like that.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 4: I'm glad.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 3: I'm glad that people know that.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 3: I'm almost.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: And the director says that too.
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 3: I'm literally kind of.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: They asked her.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 3: I'm sad because I'm like, you should... That's why everyone
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 3: needs to buy the book because you should make somebody
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 3: from this thing.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 3: And the movie.
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 2: And the funds that are being made from the book
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: are going to the government. I owe $ 300, 000 in restitution.
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: And there's a contract with the government.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 2: So that's my hope. My hope is to.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: To pay my restitution. I'm enthusiastic about doing it as well.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 3: Well, maybe there'll be another movie made. Then you'll make
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: your money and more.
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 2: The industry has made millions of dollars.
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 3: It's time that we do yours acted out. It can
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 3: do this scene. I'll play myself. You're a very colorful
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 3: divorce attorney. Not your typical attorney type.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: She's so fantastic.
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 3: The father-daughter like team. I was like, I mean, it
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 3: really kind of made the doc pop because you're like, what? Like,
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 3: I thought that, I mean, she seemed like a badass. But,
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 3: you know, when you think of an attorney, you don't
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 3: think of someone with like crazy blonde hair, tatted up arm.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 3: But she was great.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: She's incredible. Chase has for sure been a driving force
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: for me because when I start losing it and I
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 2: start just getting so hopeless, she reminds me. that there's
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: so many people that support me in my community. And
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: there's so many people that sure are curious about it
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: and have a lot of questions, but that are really
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: supportive because she has such a vast connection to our community.
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: You know, she, she's really up in the opinion of
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: our community and Chase has been exceptional at keeping me
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: motivated and understanding because it's grueling going to court and
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: doing this year after year and And still being in
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: supervised visitation and him still not answering the phone even
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 2: though there's court orders for them and him doing whatever
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: he wants. Chase has really been very stoic in keeping
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: me going and making sure that we keep the fight.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 3: Well, I hope that you can regain 50% custody. I
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 3: hope that you may.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure you'll hear about it.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, I hope that you... At some point, your
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 3: kids have two healthy parents that maybe get other partners
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 3: that maybe if he got another partner that's lovely to
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 3: you and lovely to your kids, like maybe there's a
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 3: future of that. In the process, it's an incredible story
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 3: of what happened, media fascination, being the pretty blonde girl
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 3: that went missing, where people say the pretty blonde's get
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 3: way more attention, you know, than women of color and
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 3: children of color and all of that. And then the
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 3: world turning, you know, like let's burn her to the
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 3: stake kind of a situation. And then going through like
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 3: six years of going, of like laying in bed at
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 3: night and being like, am I ever going to, like,
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 3: I don't even know how, like the stress that you
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 3: must have felt all those years, knowing that you were
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 3: keeping this lie. And did you ever fear that James
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 3: would come and try to get you again or try
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 3: to contact you again?
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: I still do. I still do. I mean, the day
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: that the documentary came out was a really hard day.
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: It's still hard. You know, it's like I've suffered from
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: PTSD for so long and it's like all flooding back.
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: My sleep has not been the same since the doc
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: has come out because now it's all out. And it's
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: not just James, it's Keith too. And it's what's going
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: to happen when I regain my kids and he starts
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 2: to lose. Then it gets really dangerous.
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 3: How old are your children now?
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 7: Pre-teens.
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, once they're 13, don't they have a
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 3: real say?
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: It's case to case.
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 3: Okay. Well, I'm going to pray for you. I think you...
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 3: you know, are a very good mom. And I think
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 3: kids need to be with both parents and need to
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 3: know both parents. And I don't think people benefit.
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: I just don't think he's thought of that. I don't
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: think he's considered because he's tried so hard to just
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: annihilate me. I don't think he thought about me not
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 2: giving up.
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: I think he just thought that that Hulu doc was
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: going to make me run away and give up on
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: the kids. And I don't think he You know, he
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: spent so many years trying to break me down and
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: break me and make me feel like I was nothing
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: without him. I don't think he counted on that I
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 2: was stronger without him and that I can endure without him.
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 7: And I think that he thought that I was just
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 7: going to run for the hills and I'm not.
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 2: My kids are far more important to me and I
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: love them way more than I dislike him. And I
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: don't think he's thought about what it's going to be
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: like when I get them back and have to sit
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: next to him at assemblies and basketball games. You don't
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: have to sit next to him. I'm putting in all
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 2: the work.
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 3: You can sit on the other side and, you know,
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 3: you can sit three rows back. Right, but we're going
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 3: to have to co-parent. Yes, you're going to have to co-parent.
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: You know, and he's caused so much destruction, not just
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: for me, but with the kids. And we have one
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: parent that's trying and it's putting in all the work
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 2: and doing all the right things for the kids. And
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: you have another parent who just really isn't. So I
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: don't think he's ever considered that he's going to lose anything.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, you're never going to give up.
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: Never.
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 3: And they're going to realize it. Hopefully, while they're still
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 3: young and you can parent them, but they always get it.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 3: They always get it.
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: And time with my kids when they've reached mature adulthood
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: is going to be longer than the time that they're littles.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: And they probably know far more than we understand.
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, everybody. The book is Sherry
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 3: Papini Doesn't Exist. And buy it. I'm going to read it.
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 3: I'm going to start reading it tonight. And where can
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 3: they get it?
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: You can get it at sherrypipinibook.com or you can purchase
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 2: it on Amazon. On Amazon, there are a few books,
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 2: exploitative pieces where people have written books about me. This
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: is written by me.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 3: So just make sure that you get that one and
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 3: not one of the others or buy them all and
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 3: then I don't know, go deeper than I've gone.
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 2: Don't give them your money.
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 3: Don't give them your money. They're exploiting me. But get
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 3: this one.
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 2: SherryPapiniBook.com are the most reliable links.
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 2: But you can also find Sherry Papini doesn't exist on
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 2: Amazon as well.
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 3: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 3: You answered so many questions and I hope you enjoyed
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 3: your time here.
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 3: Sorry to make you cry a few times. Thank you.
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: Looking for a getaway that's truly special? Ireland's Blue Book
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 1: has just what you need. From country houses to boutique hotels,
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: from romantic castles to historic hideaways, relax and indulge yourself
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 1: in award-winning dining and warm hospitality.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 3: Visit irelandsbluebook.com to plan your next luxury escape.