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75 | What No One Tells You About the Emotional Highs and Lows of Family Business (with Ben Gray) · Your Money, Your Rules | Financial Mastery, Wealth Mindset, Leadership Principles, Intuitive Decision-Making, Human Design

• 0:00
  Erin Gray: You're listening to Generate a Life Well-Lived podcast.
• 0:02
  Erin Gray: I'm your friend and confidant, erin Gray.
• 0:04
  Erin Gray: On this podcast, we will explore all things money, business and self-development, including human design.
• 0:10
  Erin Gray: I hope you enjoy the journey, where I share everything that I know and am continuing to learn along the way, as I honor my heart's desires while inspiring and encouraging you to do the same.
• 0:20
  Erin Gray: Hi, so today is the 75th episode.
• 0:25
  Erin Gray: I just want to say I'm so grateful for each of you that have tuned in every week and listened and shared your feedback and support.
• 0:32
  Erin Gray: It's truly an honor to be with you every single week and I'm really looking forward to the next 75 episodes On the podcast.
• 0:41
  Erin Gray: Today I invited my dad, ben Gray, or, as I call him, papa, because that's what he is to our daughter.
• 0:47
  Erin Gray: I invited him on to discuss his experience with money and how that impacted me, as well as working in a family business in the highs and lows.
• 0:55
  Erin Gray: I'm really grateful for my time with him and my uncle, billy, because I learned so much and am now able to help clients because of this.
• 1:02
  Erin Gray: So thank you, papa and Billy, for letting me support you and your company, and I want to thank each of you for listening and sharing your time with me.
• 1:11
  Erin Gray: Before we dive into the conversation, I wanted to let you know if you are wanting to understand more about your own unique human design and use it to make empowered financial decisions, you can enroll in my free four-part video workshop series.
• 1:24
  Erin Gray: This series will help you connect deeply with your intuition, gain more clarity and create a money mindset that truly supports your life.
• 1:32
  Erin Gray: To enroll, you can head over to my website under Work With Me, and I'll also include the link in the show notes.
• 1:37
  Erin Gray: Now let's dive into this week's episode.
• 1:39
  Erin Gray: Okay, papa, thanks for being here.
• 1:41
  Erin Gray: I'm excited.
• 1:42
  Ben Gray: Well, good to be here.
• 1:43
  Ben Gray: Okay, Papa Thanks for being here.
• 1:44
  Ben Gray: I'm excited Good to be here and, as I mentioned this, as I understand this is your 75th yeah, so that's a real mild marker and I'm real proud of you because you get started with.
• 1:58
  Ben Gray: You start with one and then you do two and whatnot.
• 2:02
  Ben Gray: So well done yeah.
• 2:04
  Erin Gray: I appreciate it, I love it, I love.
• 2:05
  Erin Gray: I think a lot of people get into podcasting because they think, in air quotes, for those of you that are listening, it's the thing to do, but you truly have to.
• 2:12
  Erin Gray: I think that the more that I've talked to people and myself, my journey it's like you have to love what you're doing because it's you know there isn't always fun times in podcasting and things of that sort.
• 2:24
  Erin Gray: It's you know there isn't always fun times in podcasting and things of that sort.
• 2:28
  Erin Gray: You know if you're editing your own or just whatever it might be, and so really doing it for the love of like.
• 2:34
  Erin Gray: I love genuinely connecting with people, I love picking people's brains, I love adding value to people, to people.
• 2:42
  Ben Gray: So yeah, well, and I think because the technology today allows anybody to podcast, okay, theoretically, the good news about that is that it's taken it out of what is normally referred to as mainstream media and there's so much information that can be imparted to the public.
• 3:04
  Ben Gray: The downside is that some podcasts are just noise okay, unless you're really bringing a value to the podcast and addressing issues.
• 3:18
  Ben Gray: Just because you say I have a podcast, I don't think that's necessarily a positive.
• 3:25
  Erin Gray: So anyway, a large majority of people like 95% of podcasts.
• 3:33
  Erin Gray: They say statistically like don't go through the like fifth or the 10th episode.
• 3:35
  Erin Gray: Like it's really like.
• 3:36
  Erin Gray: You truly have to enjoy doing it.
• 3:36
  Ben Gray: Exactly.
• 3:37
  Ben Gray: So hopefully after we do this, people will listen to this, say, hey, I really got something out of that, because anyway, so You're so funny because when I interviewed Steven he was the same thing.
• 3:47
  Erin Gray: He's like I hope I'm your best guest.
• 3:49
  Erin Gray: I'm like I love all my guests.
• 3:51
  Ben Gray: Okay, so, like father, like son if you haven't listened to that episode, I'll go back in and I'll put that in for you.
• 3:58
  Erin Gray: I have listened to some of that.
• 3:59
  Erin Gray: Yeah, so let's talk about because for clients of mine, some listeners know about our situation that, like I call it and what I recognize what it was was money trauma, and I think a lot of the more people that I support, the more people I talk to.
• 4:18
  Erin Gray: It is a thing and I don't know if I've ever really sat down with you and asked you.
• 4:21
  Erin Gray: You know, when you were going through the situation when I was 10, when, from my understanding the story that I uh, when you and I have talked about it, it was you made some financial business decisions that got you to where you were and then it got to a point where cash flow wise and just in general right, you were not in a position to pay certain things and it kind of, you know, you took a little turn and I want to know that what kind of was your?
• 4:56
  Erin Gray: Because I think a lot of times when we go through situations, it's so easy for us to be like, well, why did so-and-so do that to us?
• 5:05
  Erin Gray: Versus?
• 5:05
  Erin Gray: I truly believe, like everything happens for us and I truly believe now, looking at that, you were trying to show me and teach me about money and empower me with money.
• 5:17
  Erin Gray: Do you feel like that was what you were trying to do when you were educating me and kind of telling me more in detail about what was happening with your business and the money situation?
• 5:30
  Ben Gray: Well, just to kind of put it in a concise picture, if you will.
• 5:37
  Ben Gray: You have to understand that I was self-employed and I had been a excuse me a Exxon dealer and Exxon had increased the rent on my property or my station, yeah, and they had effectively, due to the economic conditions, the rent.
• 5:59
  Ben Gray: I was forced to get out of that business and, not having ever gone to or finishing college, I did not have a degree per se.
• 6:12
  Ben Gray: So I had to figure out how am I going to provide for my family?
• 6:17
  Ben Gray: So I sold insurance and I sold tax sheltered annuities to teachers, to teachers, to teachers.
• 6:24
  Ben Gray: Yeah, that's right To teachers and I was very successful at that.
• 6:28
  Ben Gray: But because you're kind of self-employed, you've got to set your monies aside.
• 6:34
  Ben Gray: Long story short, we got upside down with the internal revenue.
• 6:39
  Ben Gray: Okay.
• 6:41
  Erin Gray: And when you say that, like for the listeners, what exactly does upside down mean?
• 6:45
  Erin Gray: You just didn't pay federal tax, or you didn't pay self-employment tax, or like?
• 6:51
  Erin Gray: What do you mean when you say got upside down?
• 7:05
  Ben Gray: pay it because I had to make the decision or the choice between putting food on the table for the three little kids at the house, right.
• 7:11
  Ben Gray: And so it ended up that after a couple of years, the Internal Revenue sent me a love letter on a Friday afternoon which is their modus operandi for anybody who's received it you it on friday because you can't do anything for the weekend and they had locked down our bank account.
• 7:31
  Ben Gray: Okay, so the episode that you're referencing about trying to educate was we had outstanding checks that we had issued in our trading zone, that where we lived, and I felt like it was the responsible thing to do to contact the uh vendors or stores that we dealt with and make them whole.
• 8:02
  Ben Gray: Yeah, and I might have made the wrong decision, but I took with, took you with me, showing that sometimes things are bad, but that doesn't release you from being responsible and being accountable for your actions, which is one of the things that I made some notes here for our visit today that one of the things that I find very frustrating in today's environment is people are so quick or so reluctant to assume responsibility for their actions.
• 8:39
  Ben Gray: Anyway, long story short, so we had hot checks that I had to go back and pick up and so we went around and did that.
• 8:51
  Ben Gray: Now and I've known from conversation I've heard and whatnot, that perhaps that might have scarred a 10 year old I thought based off of.
• 9:01
  Ben Gray: I thought I was doing the right thing because I'm educating, showing you this is real life, right, yeah, yeah, but a 10 year old, probably emotionally, and it's probably very scary because you would think that children, they just want to be safe, right, and riding around with your dad as you go around and he's trying to, that probably didn't make you feel safe.
• 9:29
  Ben Gray: It probably made you feel unsettled and you know.
• 9:33
  Erin Gray: And also I think too, you know, uh, this is also.
• 9:36
  Erin Gray: It was like, even though we might be saying something energetically and how we are being right, so I'm sure I was probably picking up on your stress and what you were going through and I can only imagine right, like being having you know mouths to feed rent, to pay things of that sort, and now your entire bank account is locked up.
• 9:58
  Erin Gray: Like that's a real deal, you know, and it's like okay, now we go into like survival Cause, like how the fuck are we going to you know problem solving, like we got to be able to generate cash quick, right, because it's not like, even if you did have investment accounts or things of that sort, I'm sure that they lock.
• 10:17
  Erin Gray: Like what you're saying is like they locked up everything.
• 10:20
  Erin Gray: Basically, is what you're saying Like they just put a hold on everything, or at least at that point in time.
• 10:26
  Ben Gray: Um, I wish I had some investment accounts.
• 10:29
  Ben Gray: All I had was basically your checking account at the credit union, okay, and if they've got your social security number, which they do, yeah, they have access to everything that you're doing, so, anyway.
• 10:45
  Erin Gray: So I don't know if I've answered that question, but it is, and I think that you know you have to.
• 10:50
  Erin Gray: When you're going through I think everybody does have a money story People will say, oh, I, you know I'm fine with money.
• 10:56
  Erin Gray: And then, like, as we start to dig into it, it's like, oh, we, everyone has a money story, a money situation, and I think that you know when you're, when you're processing this, when you're moving through this, there's all these different stages, like you know, you talk about divorce and the five stages of you know the grief and moving through that.
• 11:16
  Erin Gray: It's like that.
• 11:16
  Erin Gray: That does happen with money as well.
• 11:19
  Erin Gray: And you know, I did go through, like, the frustration and the anger of like why would, why would someone do, why would my dad do that?
• 11:25
  Erin Gray: And then coming out on the other side and being like, but it came from a love and empowerment place, right, it came from like the intentions were pure and one of empowerment and love, like I want to show you and also recognizing that, even though that that might have, as you always say, scarred me, what that actually impacted, you know me on my money, right, like it did have me very conscious about money.
• 11:55
  Erin Gray: It did have me conscious about saving and investing and spending, and so there are parts I just for those of you listening and watching, like that I always try to look at in, in in the moment, right, Like I'm not saying, when you're processing this, to like, oh, think amazing about it.
• 12:10
  Erin Gray: Right, Like we do have to process what we're feeling, but once we get to the other side, we can see, you know, the other person's point of view and also that it is always happening for us, you know.
• 12:23
  Erin Gray: And so once I recognize that, then also and you know, I wouldn't be able to help people today if that didn't happen to me, because there are many women that have come to me that have said, you know, they don't, they don't have the language for it but then when I say, yeah, me too, I know exactly what you were going through, because I had had to do that myself.
• 12:44
  Erin Gray: So there is, you know, our higher selves, plan all of this, and there is a reason for all of this.
• 12:50
  Erin Gray: So I don't think I've ever said thank you, but thank you, you know, because it it really is.
• 12:55
  Erin Gray: When you're at that point, when you're able to look at it from hindsight 2020,.
• 12:58
  Erin Gray: It has all happened for a reason.
• 13:02
  Ben Gray: I do agree with that and I do think, but when you're in the middle of the fight sometimes you don't see the benefit.
• 13:09
  Ben Gray: But if you, of course, I'm 72.
• 13:13
  Ben Gray: All right, and I learned at a very early age that, being nine years old, eight or nine years old, having a paper route that money and I know you've said money is not everything and it's not but yet it is because money affects everything that we do a bicycle or have a TV or whatever, and I always felt like, because of my modeling from my parents, you had to go work, right, yeah, anyways, but going through the process of having to go taught me don't be in debt.
• 14:07
  Ben Gray: Yeah, keep your money.
• 14:09
  Ben Gray: I don't have to have the fanciest car or the biggest house, pay my bills, have some money in my pocket and enjoy life as opposed to.
• 14:20
  Ben Gray: I was thinking.
• 14:21
  Ben Gray: I was at a stop sign the other day and I saw this young adult, this lady was driving this bmw and I'm thinking that that car has got to be costing 80, 100 000 dollars well when you buy it new, but, as I've learned, when you buy it at carmax, it's literally half, because they're completely over.
• 14:41
  Erin Gray: Well, that is true but, but.
• 14:43
  Ben Gray: But.
• 14:43
  Ben Gray: This looks like it's pretty new and the point being is because now with the interest rates and whatnot.
• 14:48
  Ben Gray: So I'm thinking because anyway, so yeah.
• 14:54
  Ben Gray: But I can just tell you that the benefit that we got out of that was pay your taxes, yeah, okay, whether we like it or not, pay your taxes, stay in front of it.
• 15:06
  Ben Gray: And sometimes we have to schedule and structure our lifestyle because you may want versus need right.
• 15:17
  Erin Gray: Yeah, and when I say you know money isn't everything, I think sometimes people can like we want to go to those ends of the spectrum.
• 15:28
  Erin Gray: Right, it's the middle, right, Money isn't everything.
• 15:29
  Erin Gray: Because if you don't have your health, if you don't have you know, there's so many areas of our life that money can't fix right.
• 15:35
  Erin Gray: I mean, and also, yes, from a basic survival level, like that need needs to be met first.
• 15:41
  Erin Gray: But once you have those needs met, like you're saying, you know, money doesn't.
• 15:49
  Erin Gray: Money will never make you feel any certain way, which we, I think in, at least in the Western society.
• 15:55
  Erin Gray: We've been taught that it does.
• 15:57
  Erin Gray: But I know lots of people have lots of money that aren't happy and exactly so so you want to dive into just family business.
• 16:06
  Erin Gray: Um, you know your experience.
• 16:10
  Erin Gray: I mean, I am so grateful for the time that I got to spend with you and Billy, my uncle, because, even though I feel like a lot of times, I learned it by what do you call it fire?
• 16:24
  Erin Gray: What's it called when you get?
• 16:25
  Ben Gray: like um on the job training.
• 16:28
  Erin Gray: Yeah, on the job training, but like, hurry up, learn real quick.
• 16:32
  Erin Gray: Um, it has been able to help me and my clients so much because I've had, I had, true, on the job training.
• 16:40
  Erin Gray: I mean how many people can go into a 40 year old business?
• 16:43
  Erin Gray: And just, I mean I learned taxes, I learned employees, hr, I learned vendors, I mean insurance, insurance, insurance, work comp.
• 16:56
  Erin Gray: I mean there's so much that I learned.
• 16:58
  Erin Gray: Um, so tell me a little bit about family business, your experience with, like, I think that you have a different view now that you've gotten out of it than you did while you were in it.
• 17:17
  Ben Gray: Yeah, ironically, I was in the family business longer than any other job or activity that I was doing and I didn't get started until I was 40.
• 17:29
  Ben Gray: Yeah, and the irony was that, uh, our father, your grandfather, had started a business in the early 70s and my youngest brother, john, had been with my dad working and he had, because after I'd gotten out of the Exxon business, johnny wanted me to come out to the family business to be, quote, the business manager, and he also wanted our other brother, billy, who was at that time a union journeyman electrician.
• 18:09
  Ben Gray: He wanted Billy to come out and be there and he'd been trying to get billy to quit who he worked for and come out and work with them and billy wouldn't do it.
• 18:19
  Ben Gray: But when billy found out that I was going to be out there with johnny, well, billy came out within the second month, okay and.
• 18:27
  Ben Gray: But it all sounds neat because now you, at one time we had Ben senior, we had our mom, we had our sister who was also doing the books, then there was me and Billy and Johnny's I say the whole fam family was out there working and you think that's really neat, but it's a lot of stress and it's a lot of, and it wasn't before long that Johnny, who was actually responsible for getting Billy and I to come out there, told us he couldn't work with us.
• 19:03
  Erin Gray: So, anyway, so he left, and then it was me and billy yeah, not just he left, but that was, uh, I would call that a contentious divorce between the three of you and that's what I came.
• 19:18
  Erin Gray: I came into that.
• 19:19
  Erin Gray: I came into, yes, learning real quick how non-competes work and courtroom.
• 19:28
  Ben Gray: Yeah, because not only did Johnny quit us, he went into business against us and that was the real kicker, because I always said that I felt like Johnny is the kind of guy he's shaking your hand and pissing on your leg at the same time.
• 19:42
  Ben Gray: So you have to be mindful, you know.
• 19:46
  Erin Gray: Now because and we were talking about responsibility earlier and I think that during 2009, the wound was too raw to look at it and say, okay, I do have some ownership in this relationship, like two people have to get married and two people have to get divorced right, yes, yes, right yes, yes so if you could look back on, now that you've had time to reflect and ponder, what do you think you would do differently in being in a relationship with johnny and or billy your other brother, the one that stayed that maybe you didn't do at the time, because I think a lot of times egos get involved versus what's actually happening here like it's.
• 20:31
  Ben Gray: So I'm just going to stop there and let you finish yeah, well, like you say it, it was basically a mirror image of a contentious divorce.
• 20:39
  Ben Gray: Because you feel betrayed, you feel you just feel wronged.
• 20:46
  Ben Gray: Yeah, because you feel like you're doing your side of the and I mean it was a lot of things that happened before Johnny actually exited, but it was, and it's just.
• 20:58
  Ben Gray: Sometimes it's things are just bad and you don't like them, but you have to keep on working through them and you still have the business that he left.
• 21:11
  Ben Gray: You have all of the employees and their families.
• 21:13
  Ben Gray: So there's a big responsibility because he John was in charge primarily of all of the physical construction.
• 21:25
  Ben Gray: So there was a lot of shifting inside and billy started doing the bidding where johnny had been doing the bidding and um and and billy, I said for years that billy was the rainmaker, yeah, so so what would I do different?
• 21:46
  Erin Gray: do you think you would have taken him to court?
• 21:48
  Erin Gray: Do you think you would have spent so much time and energy on that?
• 21:51
  Erin Gray: Or do you think you would have just cut ties and focused on growing the business?
• 21:56
  Ben Gray: Well, when you put it and frame it in that term, well, obviously, if you could, let's just cut ties and move on.
• 22:10
  Ben Gray: But it wasn't that.
• 22:12
  Ben Gray: I mean, there were so many interrelated aspects of what he was doing and trying to take our employees.
• 22:20
  Ben Gray: So I felt like a fiduciary responsibility to our organization to protect the integrity of our organization.
• 22:31
  Ben Gray: So I was never.
• 22:35
  Ben Gray: Look, I learned real quick.
• 22:38
  Ben Gray: Anybody can sue anybody for anything anytime, yeah, and the only people that come out on that deal is the attorneys.
• 22:46
  Ben Gray: Yeah, and the only people that come out on that deal is the attorneys.
• 22:52
  Ben Gray: So would I not have gone to court if johnny had been forthright and just come to me and billy and say, look, I don't want out, I'm going to go into business against you.
• 23:01
  Ben Gray: You keep what's yours, I'm going to do mine.
• 23:04
  Ben Gray: And it had been a clean, honorable.
• 23:07
  Ben Gray: But how many divorces are like that?
• 23:11
  Ben Gray: People say?
• 23:12
  Ben Gray: As you know, your brother went through a divorce and he said, oh, we're going to be friends.
• 23:16
  Ben Gray: Well, that lasts about three or four days, right?
• 23:19
  Erin Gray: well, yeah, you here.
• 23:21
  Erin Gray: You said this as a precursor, probably not even knowing that we would touch on this, but how many people actually take responsibility for their actions?
• 23:31
  Erin Gray: And I think it's.
• 23:32
  Erin Gray: I mean, obviously, we're human and we have emotions, and also that's not when we make decisions, and I don't think a lot of us are taught how to process our emotions.
• 23:44
  Erin Gray: We're not taught, hey, I'm really angry right now, I'm not responding, I'm not going really angry right now, I'm not responding, I'm not going to have a conversation, I'm going to feel what I need to feel and then I'm going to come in and I'm going to say hey, listen, I know you want to leave and and and.
• 23:59
  Erin Gray: It's two-sided right.
• 24:00
  Erin Gray: It's also the like we can't make anyone.
• 24:03
  Erin Gray: Like there was, there may have not been anything that you could have done that would have made him want to stay or even leave, and be 100 factual and truthful.
• 24:16
  Erin Gray: I'm also curious if you noticed signs ahead of time, before it got to that point, like were there signs that, yes, were happening?
• 24:25
  Erin Gray: That, because I always think we, like with the law of preview right, like there are things that happen, and like are we in tune and connected to what's occurring?
• 24:33
  Erin Gray: Or, you know, like nobody just gets divorced overnight, right Like that's been happening over time.
• 24:38
  Erin Gray: So what were you seeing that maybe you weren't either paying attention to or you didn't want to address because it might rock?
• 24:47
  Ben Gray: the boat.
• 24:47
  Ben Gray: Well, the irony was that prior to john leaving, probably a year prior to him leaving, we had a family council between ben senior, who was the president of the organization then, and Billy and myself and John, and we sat down at the table and because Ben, our father, just wanted his sons to get along, and Billy and I said okay and Johnny basically said no, it'll never work.
• 25:20
  Ben Gray: So that should have been the indication.
• 25:23
  Ben Gray: But you, you hope that things will improve.
• 25:27
  Ben Gray: And you know there were small things that we saw.
• 25:31
  Ben Gray: We billy felt like john, when he was bidding, was intentionally putting out bids that was um, excessively low, exactly.
• 25:42
  Ben Gray: So the good news is we got the contract.
• 25:44
  Ben Gray: The bad news is you're not going to make any money.
• 25:47
  Ben Gray: And then we found out that he and our service manager, who I was in charge of, got new phones and separate phones.
• 25:57
  Erin Gray: Like a burner phone?
• 25:58
  Ben Gray: I guess no no, no, not a burner phone, they were Verizon phones and I didn't know about it.
• 26:04
  Ben Gray: And then one of our customers told me when I was at a job site.
• 26:08
  Ben Gray: He said oh yeah, your service manager called me.
• 26:13
  Ben Gray: Did you know?
• 26:17
  Ben Gray: He and your brother, johnny, are going into business, and that's when I found out.
• 26:22
  Ben Gray: So it's.
• 26:22
  Ben Gray: I mean, if you say, what did you learn from that?
• 26:24
  Ben Gray: Yeah.
• 26:24
  Ben Gray: And if you say what did you learn from that, yeah.
• 26:27
  Ben Gray: I do know that making decisions plural when you're upset, when you're emotional, is not necessarily the best time to do it.
• 26:39
  Ben Gray: Yeah.
• 26:52
  Ben Gray: And you know I've told you and your siblings this for many years that hey, if the sun comes up tomorrow, everything else is secondary.
• 26:58
  Ben Gray: But sometimes it's hard to get in.
• 26:59
  Ben Gray: Ego comes into play, whether we like it or not, for sure, okay, yeah, and I'll be the first to tell you that.
• 27:05
  Ben Gray: You know, as you know, I've been married 50 to your mama for 53 years and you have to think into a new way of acting.
• 27:15
  Ben Gray: You have to consciously desire to behave differently.
• 27:21
  Ben Gray: And that's easier said than done.
• 27:23
  Erin Gray: Yeah, it's, it's a practice, it's a skill.
• 27:26
  Ben Gray: Yes, it is done.
• 27:29
  Ben Gray: Yeah, it's, it's a practice, it's a skill.
• 27:31
  Ben Gray: Yes, it is, it is a learned skill.
• 27:32
  Ben Gray: And remaining calm, cause I have a friend that I grew up with and he always I don't know how he ever he always calm, he never got excited about anything.
• 27:41
  Erin Gray: I don't think.
• 27:42
  Erin Gray: I don't think we have to remain calm, because I think a lot of people that might be listening to that thing like, oh my goodness, you know, like because anger is a true emotion and I don't think we have to remain calm, because I think a lot of people that might be listening to that think like, oh my goodness, you know, like, because anger is a true emotion and I don't think it's a safe emotion to feel.
• 27:55
  Erin Gray: I don't think.
• 27:56
  Erin Gray: But, and I think what you're trying to say is, when you say remain calm, what you mean is like don't respond when you're in the feeling of anger and you know Frustration, so go and process that.
• 28:11
  Erin Gray: And I mean I've even had to learn that like listen, I got to walk away right now, like I'm really upset.
• 28:16
  Erin Gray: It's not with you guys, but I just need to have my space and I need to feel what's going on right now and then I'm going to come back and we'll have a conversation, and sometimes that doesn't happen until a day or two later.
• 28:23
  Erin Gray: But but having that awareness of am I making a decision in this moment because I'm angry or even elated, right, elated isn't a great place to make a decision in either.
• 28:35
  Erin Gray: So you would definitely learn how to maybe just be with your feelings and then have some neutral conversations.
• 28:46
  Erin Gray: Is that what you're saying?
• 28:49
  Erin Gray: Yeah, what you would, what you have learned, I guess.
• 28:52
  Ben Gray: Yeah, and and when I say calm, I mean keeping your head about you and, um, not making rash decisions, because you could always do something you haven't done, but you cannot undo what you have.
• 29:07
  Ben Gray: I know that sounds as Billy would say, that sounds convoluted, but it's like you can always say something.
• 29:16
  Ben Gray: but if you've already said it and taken it back, and then you have to apologize, so anyway.
• 29:20
  Ben Gray: But so I don't know if this is helping anyone, but so that's part of being family business, helping anyone, but, um, so that's part of being family business.
• 29:34
  Ben Gray: And and everybody, everybody has emotions and egos.
• 29:36
  Erin Gray: Yeah and um.
• 29:37
  Erin Gray: So I think I'm curious if you would have.
• 29:39
  Erin Gray: I mean, obviously you're a different person now than you were then, but would you have spent more time or invested in, maybe some personal development?
• 29:50
  Erin Gray: Obviously, the person has to be willing, you know, but I think that that side, like I think a lot of times, businesses are what I call 3D of like the actions and the doing.
• 30:03
  Erin Gray: But how much of it is have we actually like?
• 30:07
  Erin Gray: Who are we Like?
• 30:08
  Erin Gray: What kind of employer are we being to our employees?
• 30:11
  Erin Gray: What kind of you know am I making these decisions in a in a rush state and like really knowing yourself and understanding yourself so you can be a better owner, employer, you know, to your people?
• 30:27
  Ben Gray: Well, I'm sitting here thinking, because I know that Johnny and Billy and I actually went to a professional counselor on a couple of occasions because we Billy and I we were trying to work things out and so we could all work together and at some point you just got to.
• 30:47
  Erin Gray: Sometimes the answer is no, sometimes the answer is no, sometimes the answer is no more right and and no, is not necessarily a bad thing.
• 30:53
  Ben Gray: I mean because I can tell you this that the soonest you stop the bleeding you can start the healing.
• 31:02
  Ben Gray: Yeah, and sometimes in relationships we're pushing a rope because we're trying to, because both people got to want to, and if I'm trying to keep the group or the family or the business together and the other person has emotionally already checked out, just like you say, cut it and now we can start the healing.
• 31:28
  Erin Gray: Yeah, and I also think I mean this is true about divorce too.
• 31:31
  Erin Gray: I think that we can have divorces, whether it be from business partners and or our spouses from a very loving place, but I don't think a lot of people like that isn't probably the evidence gathering that we do Number one right, like how many times do you hear divorces are so contentious and you know the money's involved in all that versus how can I be, how do I want to be in this situation as I navigate this separation?
• 32:00
  Erin Gray: And and that can be the same in a family business If you decide you don't want to be together anymore in a family business, if you decide you don't want to be together anymore, how can we do this in the most?
• 32:10
  Erin Gray: And when I say loving, I don't mean roll over and just take whatever, but also to not fueling the fire, because we're also hurt and we feel betrayed and we're doing things to um, I don't want to say make it difficult, but I think when you say egos get involved, we make certain decisions that we probably wouldn't make if we were asking ourselves is this a heart-based decision or an ego decision?
• 32:36
  Erin Gray: It's very different.
• 32:43
  Ben Gray: Well, for years I thought about separating from the business okay, when it was just me and Billy but I just felt like, and maybe I was weak or whatever, but I opted to stay in that business as opposed to go through and start everything up, Because you have to think about it.
• 33:09
  Ben Gray: But this time I'm 45, I'm 50 years of age and and when I first went out there I was 40 and that was in 92 and my dad was um, he was already 62 and I can't tell you the number of times that I would go to him.
• 33:30
  Ben Gray: I went out there as a business manager.
• 33:32
  Ben Gray: But I quickly realized that, yeah, first off, we need to send out invoices for the work that we do.
• 33:38
  Ben Gray: That was number one.
• 33:39
  Ben Gray: We needed to have somebody who did the service work, because I quickly realized that if you're just a quote construction company with bids, you get a bid.
• 33:57
  Ben Gray: And what happened, particularly when Johnny was in charge of bidding?
• 34:01
  Ben Gray: He'd get a job and then he would not bid anymore, because now we can only do so much work, so now he doesn't work.
• 34:08
  Ben Gray: So you're not still throwing the mud against the wall, right?
• 34:12
  Erin Gray: Okay, wait, I want to pause you there, because that is what you said is so important, because this is a common thing for entrepreneurs, because we feel like it's a way to self-sabotage and it's a way to limit your income, because you're thinking more from a scarcity way versus an abundant.
• 34:35
  Erin Gray: Like we'll figure out how to.
• 34:38
  Erin Gray: Maybe we hire part-time employees, maybe we, you know, like we'll figure out how to get the job done.
• 34:43
  Ben Gray: Yeah.
• 34:44
  Erin Gray: But so often we pull back, and I think also too, this is comes back to a thermometer of like, financial thermometer of like.
• 34:56
  Erin Gray: If you haven't created that capacity to have that amount of income on a consistent basis, you will do things like that to rein yourself back in, to keep yourself at a and when I say normal level, I mean a normal income level to you that your body and your nervous system is familiar with.
• 35:18
  Ben Gray: Yes, and your brother has talked to me about that through the years.
• 35:21
  Ben Gray: He calls it, like you say, your financial thermostat.
• 35:23
  Ben Gray: Yeah, because I have personally had employees in different endeavors that I've done, that I would reward an employee and tell them, hey, you're doing a good job, pat them on the back and give them a doesn't sound like a lot, but a 50 cent an hour raise and they quit.
• 35:47
  Ben Gray: The next week.
• 35:48
  Ben Gray: They, they, they quit coming to work and you say what happened?
• 35:52
  Ben Gray: And it's like you say it, it put them outside of their financial thermostat.
• 35:58
  Ben Gray: Now people listen to this.
• 36:00
  Ben Gray: They say that's not, that's not.
• 36:01
  Ben Gray: Yes, that is in fact true because you have to think into, because when you're handling money it's very emotional and depending you talk about, because most people, I would say, live from a scarcity situation.
• 36:18
  Ben Gray: They live paycheck to paycheck, the check cashing places around town, wherever you live, and they say or now you see different ads on the internet, or you're watching TV and you can get your check two days early because people are working and they get paid week to week.
• 36:42
  Ben Gray: And anyway, I'm just telling you that.
• 36:45
  Erin Gray: So but it's.
• 36:46
  Erin Gray: It is that which goes back to that personal development of like okay, if I want to generate X amount of income, you have to become a new person, because if you already were that person, you would already be making that amount of money.
• 37:02
  Erin Gray: So what, you know that planning and I think also too, the time to start planning isn't when you're at that.
• 37:09
  Erin Gray: You know, it's like strategizing and planning ahead of time, which goes back to creative ways of thinking, versus that survival of like I'm just I felt like a lot of times didn't tell me if you felt this way.
• 37:22
  Erin Gray: It was very reactionary at the business and it wasn't from a planning perspective, like what do you actually want to do and what do we want to create, versus in that moment, kind of thing I would have to agree with that.
• 37:39
  Ben Gray: I think that certainly.
• 37:42
  Ben Gray: Well, what I, the trainer, thought, that I or the thread I was going to follow a while ago, was that I very quickly realized that bidding jobs, you get a job you don't bid, you finish your job.
• 37:57
  Ben Gray: Now you got to get another job, so maybe you're not as profitable as you need to be because your price.
• 38:02
  Ben Gray: So that's why I developed a service side of the business, because the service was a consistent cash flow, seven days a week, 24 hours a day, because when they're broke they need you, particularly because we're in the water wastewater business and people cannot function without water.
• 38:23
  Erin Gray: So anyway, so but I think that I mean you brought up another good point too.
• 38:29
  Erin Gray: It's the same thing of like you get clients and people stop marketing, versus you still keep marketing, you still keep doing those things.
• 38:39
  Erin Gray: Because then you just build your pipeline, or, as some like in the service industry, it's like your wait list or whatever right, then you're building your pipeline up, versus okay, I have my clients and I stopped marketing, and that is, that is a skill you know, because as a solo entrepreneur, you are doing a lot of those things.
• 38:59
  Erin Gray: The the blessing that CTWM had is you actually had people in those positions, so you did have a full-time bidder.
• 39:10
  Erin Gray: I mean, I can't imagine trying to full-time bid and you know do the job right and you know, like and and, yeah, when you get to the point that we were at, obviously you, you were hiring out, but but that is something that a lot of people, finding that balance and that cadence of like you always need to be marketing, gave the same promotion to the existing customers as the quote new customer.
• 39:54
  Ben Gray: Nothing fries my bacon more than and maybe I need to check my ego, but it just bothers me.
• 40:01
  Erin Gray: No, it's like why.
• 40:02
  Erin Gray: If you're going to give it away, just give it away.
• 40:05
  Ben Gray: At the end of the day, you have to realize all we are is conduits, because if you're going to give it away, just give it away.
• 40:10
  Ben Gray: At the end of the day, you have to realize all we are is conduits.
• 40:12
  Ben Gray: It should be the finances and the goodness and whatever just should be flowing through us, and we should just become the conduit to let it flow, as opposed to.
• 40:21
  Ben Gray: Well, if you're a new customer, I'll give you $100 off, but if you're an existing customer, that you've been with me for three years, I'm not going to give you anything.
• 40:28
  Ben Gray: Well, so then, and see, what happens is, most people never complain.
• 40:35
  Ben Gray: They just don't come back.
• 40:36
  Ben Gray: And so you're doing your 75th podcast today with me, but that happened one day at a time, and that's the way businesses grow and that's also the way businesses die, one customer at a time.
• 40:56
  Ben Gray: Because the business loses track of what their purpose was, what their goal was.
• 41:05
  Ben Gray: Because, at the end of the day, if you're not bringing value to the marketplace, you're temporary.
• 41:12
  Ben Gray: Yeah, you are.
• 41:15
  Ben Gray: Because you're.
• 41:16
  Ben Gray: Let's be honest, you're just kind of like it's a nebulous, because you don't really have a hard product.
• 41:22
  Ben Gray: You're not selling gold bars or you're not selling shoes.
• 41:26
  Ben Gray: You're not selling a physical item but yet you're offering value to your clients to help them navigate in whatever business they're doing.
• 41:42
  Ben Gray: Prompted me about was so often, particularly in what I would call the blue collar work plumbers, electricians, whatever you'll have a employee who is very good.
• 41:58
  Ben Gray: Yeah, it doesn't take them long to realize they wake up one morning and say, well, I could do this myself.
• 42:05
  Ben Gray: So they open up their business and, yes, they can't do the work, but it's all of the stuff what I call in the background the books, the taxes, the payroll, the rent, the insurance.
• 42:23
  Ben Gray: That's where they are lacking.
• 42:25
  Ben Gray: And if they think they can just put that information, put it in the drawer and not take care of it.
• 42:31
  Ben Gray: And you know, from doing our business I learned very on and one of the benefits, being an Exxon dealer, I learned to set aside our sales tax and our federal withholding taxes in a separate account, because that's not your money.
• 42:50
  Ben Gray: How many people you may not be aware of this, but the number of small businesses that go out of business because they co-mingle their withholding taxes and stuff like that.
• 43:05
  Erin Gray: There's so many that don't even delineate personal from business, like exactly that it's a and and this isn't.
• 43:12
  Erin Gray: I mean the deeper I've dug into, you know, the banking and the financial and all of that industry.
• 43:18
  Erin Gray: It's not set up to teach you this stuff.
• 43:22
  Erin Gray: Like I used to really think that you know, all humans had the best intentions at heart.
• 43:30
  Erin Gray: But I really believe that there are systems that currently exist in the Western society that are set up to not have you succeed, and the banking and financial industries are two of them.
• 43:41
  Erin Gray: And I can't tell you, I mean, how many people I talk to that they, they, they understanding the taxes, understanding how bookkeeping works, understanding insurance, like that's a real thing.
• 43:56
  Erin Gray: And yes, we learn by doing and also doing, and and when we learn, and we learn at the cost of, you know, 25, 50, $100,000, like that is a lesson that would be.
• 44:10
  Ben Gray: You would be maybe better served learned by not having to spend that type of money system is woefully inept at teaching people again, going back to handling money, how to balance their check, just basic stuff that people don't do and unfortunately, like I say, if you're a business operator, like you say, they don't separate the monies, they co-mingle.
• 44:52
  Ben Gray: So they're buying groceries out of the operating account.
• 44:55
  Ben Gray: It's all of these things you and I look at because we've done it, we know.
• 45:01
  Ben Gray: But for a small business person, so they get one check, it's a company, abc company and all the money goes in there and that's what they're buying gas and they're buying groceries and they're paying their payroll and they don't realize they need to separate and treat each activity separately.
• 45:19
  Erin Gray: Well, when I talk about the banking and the financial industry, like the school system is set up that way on purpose.
• 45:23
  Erin Gray: Yes, because it's really set up from a disempowered way, because if you actually knew about money, if you knew how to manage your money, then you may not need all of these people that we have now created to handle your money.
• 45:38
  Erin Gray: Yes, I believe in advisors, I believe in paying for advice and all of that, and also I can't tell you how many people tell me it's so complicated but it doesn't need to be, and it's almost this like, and then you throw emotions into it with money and you feel shameful or you feel guilt that you don't know how to do this.
• 45:54
  Erin Gray: It's like I took so many years of finance and still didn't learn some of this stuff.
• 46:00
  Erin Gray: And so, to those of you that are listening, that you're like you know what I don't know, it's okay that you don't know, like that's the first step, right.
• 46:07
  Erin Gray: Like I don't know, like that's the first step, right, like I don't know.
• 46:09
  Erin Gray: And that's what I hear all the time.
• 46:11
  Erin Gray: I don't know what I don't know.
• 46:12
  Erin Gray: You wouldn't be the first person that says this to me, right?
• 46:15
  Erin Gray: or ever utters that out of your mouth.
• 46:16
  Erin Gray: And also, the more that we talk about this, the more that we say I don't know this.
• 46:21
  Erin Gray: I, I want some help, you know, the more that it's.
• 46:25
  Erin Gray: It's almost like this dirty little secret that nobody talks about, versus saying like, hey, I really need some support with understanding how this works, because I think, also, as a business owner, you're really good at your craft, and this is also something too.
• 46:42
  Erin Gray: It's like you can be good at your craft and not be great at understanding how your bookkeeping and taxes work.
• 46:49
  Erin Gray: It's totally okay, but that is a skill you can learn.
• 46:53
  Erin Gray: And I also want to say about abdicating responsibility, because I think a lot of small businesses I've heard this a lot too of like, oh well, my CPA handles that, or oh, my attorney handles that, that.
• 47:04
  Erin Gray: That talk about owning responsibility.
• 47:06
  Erin Gray: Like we did at the very beginning, you have to own your responsibility of like, but the buck stops with you.
• 47:11
  Erin Gray: Like you have to be able to know how to read taxes, you have to know how money works in your business and to say that you know, oh, the cpa.
• 47:22
  Erin Gray: Well, I've worked with many cpas and I've had to correct their tax returns.
• 47:26
  Erin Gray: So so just because they have letters behind their name, does not deem that they are 100%.
• 47:35
  Ben Gray: I agree completely.
• 47:36
  Ben Gray: And again, small business people they would like you say they would basically just shove that responsibility off, let somebody else take care of it.
• 47:47
  Ben Gray: But in the reality, so what you're saying is you're letting somebody who's not in your business going to be looking at it as if with the same concern exactly as you have, which is not going to be there.
• 48:01
  Ben Gray: So yeah, anyway.
• 48:03
  Ben Gray: So one thing I do want to say with small business people is and we've all heard this when I say all of us if you're in the working age, you know, don't put all your eggs in one basket.
• 48:19
  Ben Gray: And I can tell you that I have tried numerous activities, endeavors outside of my business, numerous activities, endeavors outside of my business.
• 48:34
  Ben Gray: And what I learned was if you want to know because one of the questions you said if you look back, what would you say to yourself or someone else?
• 48:41
  Ben Gray: That you would do different.
• 48:43
  Ben Gray: And I would say I would have one basket and I'd watch it very close.
• 48:51
  Ben Gray: So, whatever your function is, become a student of that business, be the best you can be.
• 49:00
  Ben Gray: We started this podcast with you saying how you love it.
• 49:04
  Ben Gray: Well, since you love it, it's not work.
• 49:07
  Ben Gray: Now, it may be effort, but it's not work and to try it, it'd be like so you want to do podcasting and you're also going to try to do I don't know as an example Tupperware or Mary Kay or whatever, and you start dividing your time up.
• 49:27
  Ben Gray: So at the end I call it like it's the clown at the circus spinning the plates.
• 49:34
  Erin Gray: Yeah, there's a book called and I'll put it in the show notes.
• 49:36
  Erin Gray: It's called the one thing.
• 49:37
  Erin Gray: I think that's the book.
• 49:38
  Erin Gray: I'll have to look at it.
• 49:38
  Erin Gray: But basically, if you can imagine a circle and you can imagine arrows going out of the 360 degree circle, right, like that's what pop is talking about.
• 49:47
  Erin Gray: But when you really hone in and you spend your energy on one thing circle, one arrow up, how much energy is and and you get better at it, right, like you can't get better at something that you do every once in a while.
• 50:03
  Erin Gray: Versus you know.
• 50:04
  Erin Gray: You know having having like you know with CTWM, you know like the service, it's like you're able to know what your customers want.
• 50:13
  Erin Gray: You're able to anticipate that.
• 50:16
  Erin Gray: You're able to, you know, have a certain um geographical area that you help them with.
• 50:22
  Erin Gray: You're able to put certain.
• 50:24
  Erin Gray: You know the word that's coming to mind is cost of goods sold, but that's not the word.
• 50:27
  Erin Gray: I want to use Materials on the trucks because you're used to doing that type of work versus you know I'll see, like you have the lawn people that then do Christmas light but then do this and that, and it's just like you're.
• 50:42
  Erin Gray: You're spreading yourself so thin that you cannot become a really good master at your craft because you're everywhere, and I think that that comes from.
• 50:50
  Erin Gray: I'd be curious to what your thoughts are.
• 50:52
  Erin Gray: I think that that comes from, maybe, when I say a lack of income, like not generating the income that they want, and they think, oh well, if I just go do this over here.
• 51:02
  Erin Gray: Versus how do I get better at what I'm doing and how do I get more profitable, how do I get faster, how do I get those types of helpful questions to increase your income versus spreading yourself all over.
• 51:16
  Ben Gray: Oh, I agree completely and you know from talking.
• 51:18
  Ben Gray: You said you had a podcast with your brother, stephen, and he and I through the years have had multiple philosophical discussions about because he always told me that my reality, I was locked in because I felt like I had to be actively involved and he felt like you could just hire it done.
• 51:43
  Ben Gray: And yet if I look and I've he and I we've had conversation, I've been very candid with him I said it's easy to get quote a partner.
• 51:53
  Ben Gray: Getting a partnership going is easy.
• 51:57
  Ben Gray: Getting out of the partnership is what's uneasy and what's expensive and steven through the years has experienced because he would hire somebody and then he's disappointed with what they are doing because they're not doing what he thought he should do and, as a consequence, I've seen multiple times him have a problem because you have a partner that they're not doing what you think right.
• 52:27
  Erin Gray: I think I believe I agree with what he's saying in terms of you can hire it out only after you know it so well in and out that you can teach it, because if you don't know, I mean I was talking to a colleague and she was like my books are all fucked up, but that's because she let someone do the books and she wasn't.
• 52:48
  Erin Gray: Either she didn't know or she was, you know, not paying attention or having regular right, like so if you don't know what you are farming out, you don't know how long it takes, you don't know if they're telling you you know, and so hiring it out is perfectly fine.
• 53:04
  Erin Gray: But you also want to pause and ask yourself why am I hiring it out?
• 53:09
  Erin Gray: You also want to pause and ask yourself why am I hiring it out, like I think.
• 53:17
  Erin Gray: A lot of times we try to solve problems that either one don't exist or we're solving the incorrect problem.
• 53:20
  Ben Gray: Well, reflecting on what we said about the small business person, if he's a plumber, he's really good at doing plumbing, but he doesn't know how to do the books.
• 53:30
  Ben Gray: Well, he's probably going to have to hire that out.
• 53:32
  Ben Gray: I understand that.
• 53:33
  Ben Gray: But saying he wants to grow his business so he's going to have somebody come in as a partner, I would caution against that because I think the expression is the only ship that won't float is a partnership.
• 53:46
  Erin Gray: You've always said that.
• 53:47
  Erin Gray: But I want to go back to the hiring out, the bookkeeping.
• 53:50
  Erin Gray: I think that that is important, that you understand, because even if you hire it out, I still want to iterate.
• 53:57
  Erin Gray: Even if you hire it out, you still need to know your numbers.
• 54:01
  Ben Gray: You have to be involved.
• 54:02
  Erin Gray: You do not just get to be like okay, well, the bookkeeper takes care of that.
• 54:06
  Erin Gray: Where is that?
• 54:07
  Erin Gray: You have to put on your owner hat and be like what are my numbers?
• 54:10
  Erin Gray: And if you don't understand it, okay, then you're going to pay to get it explained to you.
• 54:14
  Erin Gray: But really understanding how that stuff works is so important.
• 54:21
  Ben Gray: Well, if you look again at the marketplace as a whole right now, and the biggest expense of any business is what I would either say taxes or payroll, but the biggest expense is labor.
• 54:37
  Ben Gray: It's it's the people coming through the door, depending on what kind of business you have, and anybody talking about payroll like you're talking, about labor, like I'm talking about the employees or the business people.
• 54:51
  Ben Gray: Because look at Target now.
• 54:53
  Ben Gray: You walk in Target and if you can fog a mirror and walk through the door, they'll pay you $15.
• 55:01
  Ben Gray: So I automatically compute that as an eight-hour day, that's $120.
• 55:06
  Ben Gray: Right there for one person.
• 55:09
  Ben Gray: You got 10 people, that's $1,200.
• 55:11
  Ben Gray: So you've got to sell a lot of stuff.
• 55:13
  Ben Gray: So you've got to be mindful and in today's marketplace, labor.
• 55:18
  Ben Gray: That's why I'll just tell you, your business is very unique in the fact that you may duplicate but you don't have four or five people.
• 55:28
  Ben Gray: You got to make payroll for each week.
• 55:30
  Ben Gray: Because if you got to make the payroll, then sometimes you're doing things you don't want to do because you've got to.
• 55:37
  Ben Gray: You've got to satisfy that.
• 55:40
  Ben Gray: So not to be philosophical, but that's a very real thing.
• 55:46
  Ben Gray: Because and if you want to make a hundred thousand dollars a year right now, which is what you would call kind of middle income right in today's marketplace, well how much do you have to do per month in payroll and all that kind of stuff?
• 56:01
  Ben Gray: So there's, you've got to be smart.
• 56:04
  Erin Gray: Yeah Well, when you said $15 an hour, it doesn't equate to $15 an hour, it's probably more like $25, by the time that you.
• 56:09
  Ben Gray: You are absolutely right by the said $15 an hour.
• 56:11
  Erin Gray: It doesn't equate to $15 an hour.
• 56:12
  Ben Gray: It's probably more like 25 times by the time that you you know, by the time you pay work comp and you play um social security, yeah, all the FICA and stuff and I.
• 56:17
  Erin Gray: that's another thing that, when I said at the beginning of the podcast that I'm grateful for because I had that experience to then be able to go in and understand, like I mean, I've talked to women that are like I didn't know that if I wanted, like you're saying, if I wanted to make a hundred, I probably more had to make like two, 50, depending on what profit margins are and like what else they have.
• 56:40
  Ben Gray: Right.
• 56:40
  Erin Gray: And so understanding, like you know, dollar for dollar, it doesn't equate.
• 56:46
  Erin Gray: If you're coming from a corporate job, you know, making a hundred hundred, it's not the same when you're, you know, wanting to do a business, and understanding that if you remember now, this is going back many years, but there was a time when you called me one day and you wanted to buy a candle shop you know that candle shop has headquarters here.
• 57:08
  Erin Gray: Can you believe that is?
• 57:10
  Erin Gray: that right, huge.
• 57:12
  Erin Gray: Yes, it's like a whole thing and we're like what in boise, idaho, since he is the candle company that he was and I was thinking about doing, going in business with a friend of mine so.
• 57:23
  Ben Gray: but I guess because the the building that the candle shop was in it became vacant, so I felt like the business went out of business.
• 57:32
  Ben Gray: So maybe going into the candle business would have been a good business.
• 57:35
  Ben Gray: I don't know.
• 57:35
  Erin Gray: No, you saved me on that one, because I do think that a lot of times people like I think what happens with business partners is we try we attract people that do what we don't want to do right.
• 57:48
  Erin Gray: There is a synergistic relationship and there needs to be really strong expectations and boundaries of what we're going to do and what that other person or other partners are going to do.
• 57:59
  Erin Gray: Because I think you go into it and that it was a friend of mine and you go into it with like, oh, this could be really fun and we could do this, but like who's the one that's going to be doing a lot of the you know, on the ground work and that kind of thing, and then that can, because you aren't clear, you could develop resentment because you are the one doing all of the things.
• 58:20
  Erin Gray: So I think if you are thinking about having a business partner, it's highly I don't like to say advisable, but I would say like, ponder and think, like what am I trying to have this partner fulfill for me and my business that maybe I'm not willing to do?
• 58:38
  Erin Gray: And being really clear on that, I mean it's the same thing like what they say right, like hire slowly and fire quickly, that's right.
• 58:46
  Erin Gray: Kind of the same thing of like test driving out.
• 58:48
  Erin Gray: You know it's like marriage test drive some partners out.
• 58:52
  Ben Gray: But, but you are, you're correct, because if, if, if someone is saying about having a partner, then you need to first off nine times out of 10, they don't know what.
• 59:02
  Ben Gray: They don't know, yeah, and they don't know all of the ins and outs of a business.
• 59:05
  Ben Gray: But so who's going to be responsible for making sure the trash is taken care of?
• 59:10
  Ben Gray: Who's going to make sure that we have plenty of toilet paper in the bathroom?
• 59:14
  Ben Gray: Who's going to be responsible for making sure we reorder in this business, in this example, the candles?
• 59:20
  Ben Gray: Who's going to make sure we have bags to put the candles?
• 59:23
  Ben Gray: So you have to have all of those.
• 59:25
  Ben Gray: And then there has to be the accountability, because if that's your responsibility to make sure there's toilet paper in the bathrooms, as an example, and there's no toilet paper, well, when you're sitting there with no toilet paper, you could have a lot of resentment, right?
• 59:44
  Erin Gray: And I think this goes back to what you said at the very beginning of responsibility Not a lot of us are willing to have hard conversations.
• 59:51
  Erin Gray: I think the one thing and you've always said this like the one thing that's that if I have to have this on my grave, like I'm too nice, like Ben Gray is too nice, like the one thing that people love about you also at times is your downfall is the word but I don't know if that that doesn't feel, feel so great.
• 1:00:08
  Erin Gray: But you know what I mean.
• 1:00:09
  Erin Gray: Like it's because you, you do have such a heart, you do want to be kind, but sometimes, like, don't confuse kindness for or or.
• 1:00:21
  Erin Gray: I should say, because you are kind, what are you unwilling to say or do?
• 1:00:27
  Erin Gray: Because you love to be the big teddy bear, you know?
• 1:00:33
  Ben Gray: Or you want to be liked so you don't want to say things that are uncomfortable to somebody who's not doing their job.
• 1:00:39
  Ben Gray: Yeah, Right, yeah.
• 1:00:41
  Ben Gray: So, yeah, that is true, that is true.
• 1:00:45
  Erin Gray: And I mean that's a skill too.
• 1:00:46
  Erin Gray: Right, like that is.
• 1:00:47
  Erin Gray: And the more that I learned about human design and I look at like you know, depending on if you have um define in your emotional solar plexus is what Papa is and I am how those waves work, like Papa's very much.
• 1:01:02
  Erin Gray: So, like build up, build up, build up, and then it just explodes Right and so recognizing and knowing yourself of like how does, how do I get to this point?
• 1:01:09
  Erin Gray: Because you are feeling things along the way and you aren't addressing it, which you know takes slowing down, which takes feeling, which takes having hard conversations, which you know is a skill.
• 1:01:21
  Erin Gray: I mean it's not easy to tell your partner or brother, you know, like hey, I don't want to be in business with you anymore.
• 1:01:27
  Erin Gray: Like I think we're sensitive, heartfelt beings, like we don't ever want to come off as being harsh or cruel or you know, and so those stories get tied into that.
• 1:01:39
  Ben Gray: If we're being target, specific.
• 1:01:42
  Ben Gray: If you recall, because you were with us 12 years, how long did you work with us?
• 1:01:48
  Erin Gray: Yeah, I want to say maybe 10, 11, something like that.
• 1:01:51
  Ben Gray: And when you quit and you said I'm going to quit, I said that's fine.
• 1:01:56
  Ben Gray: Well then you came to me at one point and you wanted you told me how because you were trying to develop business.
• 1:02:03
  Ben Gray: And you said you wanted to show me how me and Billy could grow our business, if you recall, and I said I'm not interested and and I know I think that probably hurt your feelings because you felt like I did not want to support you, but but it was the fact that I did not want to further entangle myself because I have to say Billy has been an excellent partner.
• 1:02:34
  Ben Gray: Now we sold our company three years ago, yeah, but I have to say Billy was the perfect partner because he was the typical small business person.
• 1:02:44
  Ben Gray: He was the electrician.
• 1:02:46
  Ben Gray: And whenever did Billy get involved in the books?
• 1:02:50
  Erin Gray: ever, yeah, never I mean, I always tell the joke that, like the first, I don't know, a couple weeks he came in and he was like you will never write a check or be on our bank account.
• 1:03:01
  Erin Gray: And then, sure as shit, you know, like a couple months later I'm like he's like erin, can you give me a check?
• 1:03:06
  Erin Gray: You you know.
• 1:03:06
  Erin Gray: But I think that, yeah, I mean going back to what partners?
• 1:03:14
  Erin Gray: Right, like you have partners, because you probably wouldn't have had a partner that was all into the books.
• 1:03:21
  Ben Gray: And and Billy did exactly.
• 1:03:24
  Ben Gray: You're exactly right, Because he and I would have he and I or she, whatever would have butted heads Whereas Billy did all the bidding.
• 1:03:32
  Ben Gray: So I said we were the perfect yin and yang, Because I took care of the business side and the service side and Billy kind of did the construction with the bidding and it was a great.
• 1:03:45
  Ben Gray: But at some point I just became tired and I look back now and I constantly reflect on the fact that I can't believe I did all of the things that I did.
• 1:04:04
  Ben Gray: But when you're doing them, you're in the moment.
• 1:04:09
  Ben Gray: You don't realize that I'm getting up every day at 5.30 and I'm working until 6.30 or 7.
• 1:04:14
  Ben Gray: Or I'm jumping up from the table to run to a service call, or I can't stay at the game at the weekend because I got a service call or whatever.
• 1:04:23
  Ben Gray: And I just you look back and I look back on myself and say I can't believe I did all that.
• 1:04:32
  Ben Gray: And people ask me oh, are you?
• 1:04:34
  Ben Gray: Do you miss being at work?
• 1:04:37
  Ben Gray: Are you sorry?
• 1:04:38
  Ben Gray: You're retired?
• 1:04:38
  Ben Gray: And I said hell, no, I don't miss it at all, but it's just.
• 1:04:44
  Ben Gray: But again, when I went to work out there with my dad I would try new ideas and he wanted to poo-poo everything and that was very frustrating.
• 1:04:54
  Ben Gray: But as I've gotten older and I've said this many times I may not have climbed up as high on the mountain as I wanted to climb, but where I am, on my elevation of the mountain, I'm okay with and I would encourage anybody listening.
• 1:05:15
  Ben Gray: Happiness is not having everything you want.
• 1:05:20
  Ben Gray: It's wanting everything that you have and being happy in the moment.
• 1:05:27
  Ben Gray: There's nothing wrong with wanting more.
• 1:05:28
  Ben Gray: I'm not suggesting that we don't strive to do more, but by the same token, I would encourage anybody to say look, be happy where you are, Focus on what you do, Become a student of the business, Watch that one basket very close and really bring a value to the business.
• 1:05:52
  Ben Gray: Watch that one basket very close and really bring a value to the marketplace, whether it be a service or a physical item or whatever.
• 1:05:59
  Ben Gray: And just talking to you today, I'm thinking you may have done this, I don't know, but you ought to make a checklist of what anybody wanting to go into business.
• 1:06:08
  Ben Gray: They have a checklist or a track to run on, so they know things they need to get.
• 1:06:13
  Ben Gray: And they could just I'm just thinking now I'm freewheeling here they could go down and say check all the things that they could do and all the things they don't check.
• 1:06:22
  Ben Gray: That means they got to have somebody else.
• 1:06:24
  Ben Gray: So that gives them some idea of what they're doing.
• 1:06:27
  Ben Gray: Like the lady had told you, my books are totally screwed up.
• 1:06:29
  Ben Gray: Yep, idea of what they're doing.
• 1:06:32
  Ben Gray: Like the lady had told you, my books are totally screwed up.
• 1:06:34
  Ben Gray: Yep, okay, your books are screwed up.
• 1:06:34
  Ben Gray: So do you still have the same bookkeeper?
• 1:06:36
  Ben Gray: Did you get a different bookkeeper?
• 1:06:37
  Ben Gray: That would be the first question I'd ask.
• 1:06:39
  Ben Gray: Right, you gotta.
• 1:06:39
  Ben Gray: So they say you live and you learn.
• 1:06:42
  Ben Gray: Well, I don't know.
• 1:06:43
  Ben Gray: Did you learn anything?
• 1:06:45
  Ben Gray: Because if your books are screwed up, you probably either need to a change your B, get a new person, or both.
• 1:06:53
  Ben Gray: Yeah, Anyway.
• 1:06:55
  Erin Gray: So don't want to go on that rant right there, but I'm just oh, I also think that this is I think I don't know if this is worldwide, but I think in the Western society the belief that more is better right, exactly.
• 1:07:11
  Erin Gray: That, yes, we came here to planet Earth.
• 1:07:14
  Erin Gray: We do want to expand, we do want more.
• 1:07:16
  Erin Gray: That's totally fine.
• 1:07:18
  Erin Gray: But the idea I think sometimes you can get carried away with you know more business, bigger, bigger, more people, all of that.
• 1:07:27
  Erin Gray: And sometimes the answer for some people is like I just want to be a one man show or I just want to have, you know, a couple of 1099 contractors or you know something of that sort, versus I want to have this huge, you know organization and all of that, and if that is you, that's okay.
• 1:07:43
  Erin Gray: And also it's okay to be like you know what to be like.
• 1:07:48
  Erin Gray: You know what I'm totally okay with you.
• 1:07:50
  Ben Gray: know Well, you described us to a T because I was trying to.
• 1:07:56
  Ben Gray: We were trying to grow the business and the biggest year we had we did a little over $7 million worth of business.
• 1:08:02
  Ben Gray: But we had multiple layers of managers and whatnot.
• 1:08:07
  Ben Gray: And I went to Billy and I told him because we actually made less money Although we had done more business than we'd ever done in a single year.
• 1:08:17
  Ben Gray: The bottom line profit for Benny and Billy was less.
• 1:08:21
  Ben Gray: And I told him I said this ain't right, we ain't going to do this anymore.
• 1:08:24
  Ben Gray: We're going to in this case I actually said we're going to pull our horns in and we're going to, like I said, focus and really do and not have so many managers and maybe do a little bit more ourselves so that we would make, we were actually more profitable.
• 1:08:40
  Ben Gray: So just doing.
• 1:08:42
  Ben Gray: Because when Billy first came out there he said, coming from his background with the electrical company he worked with, he said, well, we need a million-dollar job.
• 1:08:52
  Ben Gray: And I said, well, what good is a million-dollar job if it costs you a million-two to put it in the ground Because you'd lose money?
• 1:09:01
  Ben Gray: And I don't mean to be flippant, but sometimes people like you say they get confused with more is better.
• 1:09:11
  Ben Gray: Well, I don't know.
• 1:09:13
  Erin Gray: Yeah, and they confuse revenue versus net profit, or they confuse, you know, and the reason why you're at $7 million, I mean with the wastewater construction business.
• 1:09:23
  Erin Gray: I mean a tank, I mean you had more bigger tanks, which is easy to inflate.
• 1:09:29
  Erin Gray: That when I say inflate that number, right, like you could go from five to seven if you had a couple more jobs that had big tanks on it.
• 1:09:36
  Erin Gray: But, yeah, so is there anything else that you want to add that maybe we haven't talked about that?
• 1:09:43
  Ben Gray: There's a couple of things.
• 1:09:44
  Ben Gray: One thing Erin probably said oh boy.
• 1:09:46
  Ben Gray: But one thing I would encourage everybody is pay yourself first.
• 1:09:52
  Ben Gray: Yeah, you're going out there and you're busting your hump.
• 1:09:55
  Ben Gray: You need to pay yourself first.
• 1:09:57
  Ben Gray: And I would encourage everybody to read the book Richest man in Babylon, because there are no new secrets.
• 1:10:06
  Ben Gray: There are no new ideas.
• 1:10:08
  Ben Gray: To be successful today is the same thing it was eons ago.
• 1:10:13
  Ben Gray: Do what you say you're going to do.
• 1:10:16
  Ben Gray: Treat people fair.
• 1:10:17
  Ben Gray: If you make a mistake, admit it.
• 1:10:20
  Ben Gray: But you got to pay yourself first because you're going to be.
• 1:10:25
  Ben Gray: I'm 50, excuse me, I'm 72.
• 1:10:28
  Ben Gray: I remember when you were born and I held you in my hands in August of 1980.
• 1:10:34
  Ben Gray: Yeah, those years come by in a flash.
• 1:10:38
  Ben Gray: Pay yourself first, save.
• 1:10:41
  Ben Gray: You got to save for retirement because it'll be here before you know it.
• 1:10:46
  Erin Gray: Anything else anything else.
• 1:10:50
  Ben Gray: Your success is dependent on your inconvenience or the convenience of your customers.
• 1:10:57
  Ben Gray: If you think you're going to be successful and everybody's going to have to get in line to accommodate what you want to do, I think you're going to be a little bit hard pressed.
• 1:11:08
  Ben Gray: There's nothing with having boundaries, but you're going to be a little bit hard pressed.
• 1:11:11
  Ben Gray: There's nothing with having boundaries, but you're going to.
• 1:11:12
  Ben Gray: My experience is getting up and going to a service call in the middle of the night is inconvenient, but I was having to serve the need of my customers.
• 1:11:21
  Ben Gray: So I think you need to realize that your success is based on you are meeting the convenience of others as opposed to you.
• 1:11:32
  Erin Gray: And also the.
• 1:11:33
  Erin Gray: I mean the type of business.
• 1:11:34
  Erin Gray: I mean that's like Aaron would never be in a service-based business, Cause I'm like, absolutely not, I'm not getting up, right, but you love it.
• 1:11:41
  Erin Gray: You love it.
• 1:11:41
  Erin Gray: I mean just like my husband Jason.
• 1:11:42
  Erin Gray: He loves to cut trees.
• 1:11:43
  Erin Gray: I'm like there is no fucking way I would work out in 20 degree weather, no way he jumps out of bed, right.
• 1:11:49
  Erin Gray: And so here we go, back to like you truly have to figure out what you love, because you're going to spend a lot of time doing it and you might as well enjoy and, like Papa said, it's not that it doesn't require effort, but the time, like I call it, flow.
• 1:12:06
  Erin Gray: You're.
• 1:12:07
  Ben Gray: The time passes so quickly because you enjoy what you're doing absolutely, and and I would also offer this one observation it's okay to fail well, that's part, that's how you, that is how you learn like hopefully.
• 1:12:22
  Ben Gray: And sometimes people think, oh, I screwed up or whatever.
• 1:12:25
  Ben Gray: You know what, yep, you screwed up, dust yourself off, get up.
• 1:12:30
  Ben Gray: And they say I've heard that the only way to become a big shot is as a you just keep on shooting, right, yeah, anyway.
• 1:12:38
  Erin Gray: So okay, thanks, papa, I appreciate it you're more than welcome.
• 1:12:42
  Ben Gray: Uh, hopefully anybody listening will get something out of this.
• 1:12:45
  Erin Gray: So there you go well my, my listeners that have family business.
• 1:12:48
  Erin Gray: They'll be like, yep, that's exactly how it is so that's exactly right, okay, I thank you for each of you listening, watching until next time.