Latest / Ministry Minded / Lightbulb Moments in Marriage with Dr. Emerson Eggerichs

Transcript

Lightbulb Moments in Marriage with Dr. Emerson Eggerichs · Ministry Minded

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  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
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  a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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  in our messy
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  SPEAKER_00: ministries.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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  I serve as the Senior Pastor of Stonington Baptist Church in
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  Pax Sinus,
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  Pennsylvania.
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  SPEAKER_00: And on today's episode, I am just thrilled and delighted to have...
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'll see you next time.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: It is based on his book,
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  SPEAKER_00: Love and Respect,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is a book that seeks to engage couples,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially husbands and wives,
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  but anyone that is in a relationship on what fuels conflict in
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  marriage and how to
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  SPEAKER_00: get out of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And how does the Bible,
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  how does the Word of God speak into the ways in which men
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  approach conflict
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  SPEAKER_00: differently than women?
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  SPEAKER_00: And what is God's design for marriage?
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  SPEAKER_00: How can we see that out of the word of God?
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was just,
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  I've done the Love and Respect video series several times as I
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  kind of reminisce on
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  SPEAKER_00: that with Dr.
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  SPEAKER_00: Egricks himself.
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  And every single time I've done it,
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  it is just such an impactful look at God's design for
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  So we talk about that,
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  and it was just a delight to talk about that with Dr.
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  Egriggs.
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  SPEAKER_00: We also talk about his new book,
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  SPEAKER_00: The Lightbulb Moments in Marriage,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we talk about that and what that means.
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  SPEAKER_00: and how that has played such an impact in so many different ways,
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  SPEAKER_00: in so many people's lives throughout his decades in ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: counseling couples,
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  and showing them that Christ is the one who wants them to
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  flourish in their
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  SPEAKER_00: marriage.
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  SPEAKER_00: So sit back and relax and enjoy this episode as me and Dr.
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  SPEAKER_00: Edgar talk about love and respect and light bulb moments in marriage.
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  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Dr. Eggers, it is such an honor to have you on the show.
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  SPEAKER_00: As I was saying at the top,
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  SPEAKER_00: I have watched your Love and Respect video series many times over,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it's one that's...
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  I don't know if this is always the case with devotional series
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  or other seminar
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  SPEAKER_00: preaching series that you want to put it on and...
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how many of those have rewatchability,
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  but I think one of the highest things I can say about your Love
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  and Respect series
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  SPEAKER_00: is that it has rewatchability,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I love going back to it and watching it over and over again.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when,
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  SPEAKER_00: and this is going to be maybe on the nose,
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  SPEAKER_00: and this is,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's going to be on the nose,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it wasn't planned,
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  SPEAKER_00: but we'll say it's planned.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I remember thinking that when I first watched it as a young guy,
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  and trying to get into ministry and also young in my marriage
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  that that series was
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  such a light bulb moment for me and my wife anyways and I've
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  gone back to it so
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  many times so anyways I just had to say that because it's just
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  a great honor to
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  have you on and I'm excited to talk to you and so if folks
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  aren't familiar can you
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  just kind of introduce yourself who you are and and what love
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  or respect is and
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  maybe even just give a we'll talk more about your your new book
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  later but kind of
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  SPEAKER_00: introduce that as well
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  SPEAKER_01: No, thank you, Brad.
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  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for the invitation to be on this podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's based on Ephesians 533.
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  Along with you,
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  I was a pastor for nearly 20 years in East Lansing,
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  Michigan,
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  college town.
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  The philosophy ministry that the elders there wanted me to
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  fulfill was studied the
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  SPEAKER_01: Bible 30 hours a week for the exposition of Scripture.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was a real privilege.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I saw something in Ephesians 5.33,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe 18 years into the ministry,
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  SPEAKER_01: 17 and a half,
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  where Paul summarizes the marriage relationship in verse 33 of
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  chapter 5 of
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  SPEAKER_01: Ephesians.
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  SPEAKER_01: And most of us know that he's talking there about husbands and wives.
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  SPEAKER_01: But that last verse is the summary.
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  Husbands,
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  love your wives and wives see to it that you respect your
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  husbands.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there was no debate,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: on the first part of that verse,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: that husbands are to love.
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  SPEAKER_01: No one was really standing up and debating that.
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  SPEAKER_01: I have, I was in a college town, Michigan State University's there.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've got my PhD in family studies.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I knew that the culture wasn't opposing men loving women,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it certainly didn't like the idea of respecting men.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that was an interesting thing as I meditated on that.
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  How do we communicate that message that doesn't put women in
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  particular on the defensive?
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  SPEAKER_01: Because women are not mean spirited,
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  but they are very concerned about being dismissed or being
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  treated like the
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  SPEAKER_01: doormat.
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  SPEAKER_01: They have their mantra of things and he hasn't earned the respect.
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  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't deserve the respect.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's not superior to me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not inferior to him.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to set the feminist team back 50 years.
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  SPEAKER_01: You really have a hidden agenda of patriarchy.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what you're really all about.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to give him license to do what he wants to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: I certainly am not going to subject myself to emotional abuse.
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  SPEAKER_01: But other than these things,
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  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
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  SPEAKER_01: Emerson,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm really open to hearing what you have to say about this.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the mantra.
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  SPEAKER_01: And again, they're not mean-spirited, they're just fearful.
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  And so I realized I had an uphill climb because I went to
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  military school for five
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  SPEAKER_01: years from eighth grade to 12th grade.
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  SPEAKER_01: We had family problems.
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  And so my mom in particular felt I needed to be put into a
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  military school.
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  SPEAKER_01: But that was really a godsend for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: We were not Christ followers.
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  You were raised in a pastor's home and the grandson of a great
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  pastor and teacher.
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  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so my mom and dad
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  SPEAKER_01: did not know the Lord.
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  SPEAKER_01: So at military school, I found Christ.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was really the beginning.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I knew from military school that men serve and die for honor.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is huge.
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  SPEAKER_01: Not long ago, Pat Riley had me come and spend many hours with him.
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  And he had me speak to the Miami Heat about these issues of
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  respect and honor.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he and I sat for
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  Many hours and I was in the presence of a great icon who
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  understood all of this,
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  SPEAKER_01: that men serve and die for honor.
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  And when you honor men and treat them justly,
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  they'll serve and die for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: When you treat them dishonorably,
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  SPEAKER_01: And unfairly or unjustly, there's mutiny.
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  SPEAKER_01: They'll throw you over ship or they'll jump ship.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is something that is huge on every man's radar screen.
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  SPEAKER_01: We live by the honor code.
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  SPEAKER_01: I even asked Coach Spoh and Pat Riley,
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  SPEAKER_01: would you rather be honored,
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  SPEAKER_01: receive honors,
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  SPEAKER_01: or be honorable?
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  SPEAKER_01: Instantaneously, they said, be honorable.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is deep within the soul of men, but women don't track with this.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not that they are ignorant totally.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not that they don't grasp it as we talk about it.
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  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't show up on their marital radar screen.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's not what ultimately is important to them.
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  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
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  SPEAKER_01: I had a mother,
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  she had a 16-year-old boy who was to write his epitaph for a
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  school assignment on
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  SPEAKER_01: his grave.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he said, here lies an honorable man.
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  SPEAKER_01: And she rebuked him and said, no, here lies a loving man.
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  And so it was all about her focus on love,
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  and she saw that as just marginal at best.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I write about that in my book called Mother and Son.
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  But all that to swing back around to the idea that I saw this
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  Ephesians 5 passage,
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  SPEAKER_01: 33 in particular,
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  SPEAKER_01: and realized I was up against something in the culture because it's
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  SPEAKER_01: counterintuitive and countercultural to females.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I thought to myself,
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  SPEAKER_01: and Sarah and I have been married over 50 years,
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  SPEAKER_01: what happens when Sarah feels unloved?
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  SPEAKER_01: Ah, she negatively reacts.
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  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't default to a positivity.
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  She negatively reacts in a way that sounds and appears to me as
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  disrespectful.
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  And when I feel disrespected,
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  I don't default to a loving,
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  humble demeanor.
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  SPEAKER_01: I react negatively in a way that ends up feeling unloving to her.
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  SPEAKER_01: And thus, we gave birth to what I call the crazy cycle.
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  SPEAKER_01: Without love, she reacts without respect.
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  SPEAKER_01: Without respect, he reacts without love.
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  SPEAKER_01: Without love, she reacts without respect.
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  SPEAKER_01: And without respect, he reacts without love.
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  And though we all need love and respect equally,
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  we've asked 7,000 people this question.
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  When you're in a conflict with your spouse,
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  are you more likely to feel disrespected or unloved?
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  SPEAKER_01: 83% of the men, Brad, said they feel disrespected.
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  SPEAKER_01: 72% of the women say they feel unloved.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's not absolute.
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  SPEAKER_01: There are women who need R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there are men out there who need L-O-V-E.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I always say the felt need, though, tends to be this way.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if the shoe fits, wear it.
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  SPEAKER_01: So that's the message.
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  SPEAKER_01: And over the years now,
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  SPEAKER_01: I've had people say,
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  you just described in five minutes what I've been experiencing
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  in 30 years but
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  SPEAKER_01: couldn't figure out.
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  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
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  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
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  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
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  SPEAKER_00: It totally makes sense.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it is so fitting with where we are sometimes.
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  SPEAKER_00: I often feel like we're in the midst of relationships,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I've been married for,
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  SPEAKER_00: oh gosh,
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  SPEAKER_00: I should know this,
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  SPEAKER_00: but over a decade now.
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  But it feels as if you're so close to the things that you can't
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  always perceive the
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  SPEAKER_00: bigger picture of what's going on.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what's really helpful about
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  um what you are ascertaining and what you're kind of all these
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  insights that you're
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  that you're kind of expressing is that here's the bigger
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  picture of what's going on
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  you're you're right in the midst of it but here's the bigger
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  thing that's going on
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  and here's how um not only how we can understand you know the
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  person that you're
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  living with but here's how the bible informs how you can
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  understand the person that
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  you're living with which is like the like the whole point of it
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  all anyways so
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  I'm always enamored by that because you kind of need that
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  third-party sort of
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  SPEAKER_00: person to come in and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: here's kind of what's going on.
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  Here's how we can help you because the proximity that you have
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  to whatever conflict
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  SPEAKER_00: is arising or whatever –
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  Whatever little thing is happening or whatever disagreement or
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  maybe not even
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  SPEAKER_00: disagreement,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I think what you say many times is it's not bad,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's just different or you say something to that effect.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not wrong, just different shades of bright.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  And so what's how can we kind of bridge that gap between
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  between those those
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  SPEAKER_00: different ways of approaching?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  it's a basic biological fact that men and women have different
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  ways of approaching
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  SPEAKER_00: situations and conflicts and how to resolve them.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's so helpful to have this type of not just rhetoric,
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  SPEAKER_00: but this type of message,
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  SPEAKER_00: because it's it helps people.
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  SPEAKER_00: It really does.
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  And it's helped me and I know it's helped countless others
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  bridge that gap between
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  SPEAKER_00: those differences,
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  SPEAKER_00: which I think the point,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a profound observation you've just made,
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  SPEAKER_01: very profound,
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  because it's exactly the major point of the new book to
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  unashamedly transition to
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  SPEAKER_01: this just momentarily,
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  SPEAKER_01: light bulb moments in marriage,
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  SPEAKER_01: because the point is there's an illusion of distance,
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  SPEAKER_01: that we seem to be miles apart when really we're just inches.
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  SPEAKER_01: But as you continue to experience the same things,
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  SPEAKER_01: like without love,
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  SPEAKER_01: she reacts without respect,
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  SPEAKER_01: he asks her to stop reacting in that disrespectful way.
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  And when she doesn't,
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  after several years,
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  it's kind of like,
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  well,
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  I must not matter to her.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so he begins to think, apparently she...
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  is using this opportunity as another moment to send me a
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  message that I'm not good
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  SPEAKER_01: enough,
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  SPEAKER_01: that I'm a failure in her eyes,
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  SPEAKER_01: and that she,
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  SPEAKER_01: for whatever reason,
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  SPEAKER_01: has an aim to kind of diss me.
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  When through the light bulb moments book and even in the love
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  and respect book,
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  SPEAKER_01: this pivot can happen when suddenly the light switch is there.
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  SPEAKER_01: She's not trying to be disrespectful.
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  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't get up early in the morning to storyboard ways to diss you.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's not in her.
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  SPEAKER_01: She's just not even thinking of that.
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  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
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  she's feeling insecure a little bit and she's seeking
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  reassurance in the way that
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  SPEAKER_01: she does as a woman,
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  SPEAKER_01: her best friend.
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  girlfriend or sister in particular,
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  they're going to come at each other negative.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're going to criticize, complain.
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  SPEAKER_01: But then the one will say, well, I'm sorry, I didn't know that.
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  SPEAKER_01: They are very comfortable in what is called the ocean of emotion.
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  SPEAKER_01: But you and I, we don't interact with each other that way.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's easy for us to think, I don't know what it is about me.
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  SPEAKER_01: No one talks to me as disrespectfully as she does.
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  SPEAKER_01: Everybody respects me but you is a comment that most of us men will say.
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  And we're in disbelief that she continues to be critical,
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  negative,
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  even disrespectful,
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  And here I withdraw in Stonewall to de-escalate the conflict
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  because in my mind
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  SPEAKER_01: that's honorable.
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  I don't want to fight over something I think is ridiculous and
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  relationships more
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  SPEAKER_01: important than this dumb idea that she's upset about.
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  SPEAKER_01: Only to hear that I'm the most unloving person on the planet.
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  And here I'm trying to do the honorable thing by preventing
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  this thing from getting
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  SPEAKER_01: out of control.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't start the thing in the first place.
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  SPEAKER_01: So how in the world now am I the bad guy in this?
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  So we have a very difficult time interpreting this through a
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  different grid because
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  SPEAKER_01: our sentiments,
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  SPEAKER_01: our feelings are so real.
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  SPEAKER_01: As men, that's exactly how we feel.
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  SPEAKER_01: Or when we withdraw,
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  women are feeling like they can't imagine withdrawing over what
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  they would perceive
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  SPEAKER_01: to be a minor criticism.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so they've asked him to stop withdrawing.
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  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it must mean he doesn't care.
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  SPEAKER_01: And after a period of time, we begin to think,
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, they don't lack goodwill.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't see my spouse as having evil will.
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  I don't necessarily would agree that they get up early in the
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  morning to storyboard
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  SPEAKER_01: ways to irritate me.
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  SPEAKER_01: But for whatever reason, they're not listening to me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And somehow I feel I don't matter.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is the danger point because now we begin to live like roommates.
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  SPEAKER_01: We know how to avoid those landmines out there.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're not going to step on those, although every once in a while we do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it gets pretty ugly and we get very defeated, very discouraged.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're trying to manage this thing.
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  And so many people just stay in it,
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  like a godly man like you and your wife.
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  SPEAKER_01: They just stay in it for years.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're not necessarily totally happy.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're not going to divorce each other.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: Billy Graham talks about Ruth Graham,
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  SPEAKER_01: his wife,
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  SPEAKER_01: being asked,
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  SPEAKER_01: would she ever consider divorcing Billy?
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  SPEAKER_01: And she said, absolutely not.
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  SPEAKER_01: But murder, many times I've considered, right?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have these situations where we get really discouraged.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so the thing that's been so exciting,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: we've been doing this love and respect message now since 1999.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And people would write me,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Brad,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: and say,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: we had a light bulb moment,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: a light bulb moment,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: a light bulb moment.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what they described, and that's what this book is about.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I went back and looked at these, and I put it together with 12.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's arbitrary.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: I could have had 16.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: I could have had nine.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: But these continue to repeat themselves sufficiently.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, well, this is sufficient for a reader.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Get this,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: because you can realize once you have that light bulb moment,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: it pivots just that quickly.
• 15:23
  And what appears to be something that we're never going to be
• 15:27
  able to turn and go
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: in a more positive direction,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: because I think we've been permanently railed,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: suddenly they realize,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Just a little piece of insight caused us to, you know, change.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: let me say,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah and I have had these light bulb moments,
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: but that doesn't mean that I want to necessarily do what I know today.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: But that's totally different than not knowing what to do.
• 15:50
  And she even chased me around the house once with my love and
• 15:52
  respect book saying,
• 15:53
  what would you say to a husband treating his wife the way
• 15:56
  you're treating me right
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: now?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: So none of us are going to do this perfectly.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's not the point.
• 16:02
  But I mean,
• 16:02
  staying in the dark,
• 16:03
  staying in the shadows,
• 16:04
  having no idea,
• 16:06
  trying our best.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: See,
• 16:08
  if you don't have a little knowledge and a little skill that
• 16:11
  God intends you to
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: have,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: it can be horribly,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: horribly frustrating and defeating.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Make sense?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it totally makes sense.
• 16:20
  And like,
• 16:22
  as I said before,
• 16:23
  like the love and respect series was a light bulb moment for
• 16:26
  me.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not, I'm going to include myself among those testimonies.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: but I think also like,
• 16:31
  and maybe this is kind of what you get to is the idea of like
• 16:36
  acting on assumption,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: like you,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: like you were saying that,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: and I think it's so,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: so profound and so true that like,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think our,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: our,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: our spouses or you,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: whoever you're,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: you're,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: you're married to is waking up and
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: wanting to come up with ways to just kind of ruin your day.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes we act as though that's the case.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: We operate under assumption rather than,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think Paul talks about giving people the benefit of the doubt,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think he says that in chapter 2 of Philippians.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: But he talks about this idea of deference.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about this idea of
• 17:10
  of almost like thinking the best in these in other people and
• 17:13
  that and he ties it
• 17:15
  to that this is the mind of christ let this let this mind be in
• 17:18
  you which was also
• 17:19
  in christ jesus um and i think that that's that's uh you can
• 17:24
  make that a very
• 17:25
  theological thing and we should we can make that
• 17:27
  ecclesiological thing but i think
• 17:28
  it's a very relational thing as well like obviously he's
• 17:31
  talking to a church
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: let alone just between church members,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: but between the person that you're living with the closest,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: this mind should be in you,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: which was also in Christ Jesus,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: which was definitely written to both genders,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: but it's definitely written to men.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: As you often say, there's a reason why
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: He repeats love your wife so often in Ephesians 5,
• 17:54
  but I think that's a really profound light bulb moment because
• 17:57
  I think we're given
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: to thinking negatively sometimes,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe that's just sin or maybe that's just ego,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: maybe that's conceit.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: However we wanted to diagnose that,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: but we're given to that,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: and it's helpful to remember that,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think your partner's...
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: If they are, then maybe that's a different topic that we need to go on.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: They are waking up thinking of ways to ruin your day.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for the most part, generally speaking, they're not.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that, anyways, that's helpful to remember.
• 18:31
  No,
• 18:31
  I mean,
• 18:31
  again,
• 18:31
  it's an excellent observation you're tracking very well.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: We falsely assume because our feelings are so real.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you get in a crazy cycle, how is it that
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: If she feels so unloved,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: at that moment in time,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: and she's not trying to just make the case against him,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: it just feels unloving.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: So if I feel unloved in this moment because of this reaction,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: your part,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: withdrawing and stonewalling,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: for instance,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: 85% of those who stonewall and withdraw in marriages,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: the husband,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: University of Washington,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: studied 2,000 couples for 20 years.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And partly it's because their heartbeats get to 99 beats per minute.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's warrior mode.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: They were monitoring...
• 19:12
  beat bpms it's called heartbeats per minute and uh men have to
• 19:17
  either fight or
• 19:17
  flight and so he de-escalates because he didn't want to fight
• 19:20
  with his wife so he
• 19:20
  withdraws but in a woman's world that is the most unloving
• 19:24
  thing you could do in
• 19:24
  fact the women were asked those 2 000 women when he withdraws
• 19:28
  like that what do you
• 19:28
  feel it feels like an act of hostility and that comment was so
• 19:32
  common they made it
• 19:33
  a descriptor called act of hostility so she is absolutely
• 19:36
  convinced he must hate me
• 19:38
  He must hate me because she could not imagine shutting down
• 19:41
  over what she would
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: perceive at worst,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: a minor criticism,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: which is really all about her care for him.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So to her, it's an act of hostility.
• 19:49
  But in our world,
• 19:51
  when we're at 99 beats per minute,
• 19:52
  you have to withdraw as an act of honor.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you and I were best buddies, we got into a heated argument.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: We say, drop it, forget it.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we exit because we're lethal.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so during those conflicts,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: actually,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: what's interesting,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: the women looked like they were out of control.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Their heartbeats were normal.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: The men looked stoic, but their heartbeats were 99.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's called flooding.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: At that point, you're not going to have a conversation with him.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: He's flooded.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: So he has to calm down.
• 20:18
  And that's why men are saying just you're picking to fight,
• 20:20
  which she's not.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what it feels like to him.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so he's confused.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: She's confused.
• 20:25
  But how could she conclude anything other than and assume
• 20:29
  anything other than the
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: fact that he's unloving?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because it feels this way.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And she couldn't imagine doing this.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so in her pink world, how else could she assume this?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the question is whether it's a false assumption.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Is it an act of hostility or an act of honor?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: You see, well, it depends on whether you're videotaping in pink or blue.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer to that is yes.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: It is both an act of hostility and an act of honor,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: but it just depends on whose lens you're looking at through this.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the University of Washington studied those same couples in that time.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: They realized women criticize, complain.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Almost probably 85% criticism, complain.
• 21:04
  And they knew that wasn't politically correct,
• 21:06
  but they had linguists there.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: They had clinical psychologists there.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: They were videotaping.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: They were doing audio, I mean, tone.
• 21:13
  And of course,
• 21:14
  the heartbeats permit it be monitored physiologically in depth.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the linguist said,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: there's no other way you can conclude than women criticize,
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: complain,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: criticize,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: complain,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: criticize,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: complain.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: we know when you do that on an ongoing basis,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: men are going to say,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: I just feel that she's using this conflict as another opportunity.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Send me a message that she doesn't like who I am.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: I can never be good enough.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a failure.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And she's disrespecting me.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I, for the life of me, don't know why.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so he is totally confused as he's looking at this.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And just to him, it's an act of contempt.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Ongoing criticism.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And complaint, it has to be categorized as an act of contempt.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: But all the research sociologically on women and their nurturing nature,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: they do what they do as an act of care.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Every woman will say, well, I speak that way because I care.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: She can't not care.
• 22:03
  So then it begs the question when she criticizes a complaint as
• 22:07
  an act of care or
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: an act of contempt.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it just depends on whether you're videotaping in pink or blue.
• 22:13
  But a man can falsely assume that because his feelings are that
• 22:17
  she's just being disrespectful.
• 22:19
  And because those feelings are so real and because there isn't
• 22:21
  anybody in his life
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: who is so negative and critical complaining,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: it just seems like she's nitpicking.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Seems like every day there's just something else.
• 22:30
  how else is he to interpret that other than the fact that my
• 22:33
  woman has issues?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: that's where then we say to husbands and wives out there,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: young and old,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to have to just step back for a moment.
• 22:43
  And this is where the light bulb moment comes in,
• 22:45
  where you may not be miles apart.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And as you are pointing out, Brad, that there is this assumption we make.
• 22:52
  And we've got to understand there's an old translation in the
• 22:55
  book of Acts through presumption.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: comes nothing but strife.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Through presumption comes nothing but strife.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things we like to say to people,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: if you're having an ongoing strife,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: could it be that one or both of you are presuming something here?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And Brad has spoken into this.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to step back.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean that those feelings aren't real.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that our spouse...
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: can't change or improve and serve us.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: We're not going to debate that.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he can be more loving.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: She can be more respectful.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things we talk about in light bulb moments.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: How do you do that?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the first thing that we have to ask ourselves,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: and this circles back to what I was saying,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: you can land on scriptural principles out of Philippians and elsewhere,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: but Paul addresses it to the married.
• 23:39
  Love and respect is all about those passages to husbands and
• 23:43
  wives about the topic of marriage.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: I looked at every passage, the Old Testament, New Testament.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's why pastors like this.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a systematic theology for laity.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's the whole thing.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I tried to rightly divide the word of truth together.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: concerning what God has said on marriage.
• 23:56
  For instance,
• 23:57
  1 Corinthians 13,
• 23:57
  the love chapter,
• 23:58
  that's not about marriage.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's about spiritual gifts.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: 12, 13, 14 is about spiritual gifts.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean you can't apply that to marriage.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: It just means that Paul talked about marriage in 1 Corinthians 7.
• 24:10
  i'm writing another book called the win-win marriage and it's
• 24:12
  all about first
• 24:12
  corinthians 7 but in first corinthians 7 and here's the the
• 24:16
  passage that really
• 24:17
  gets at the idea you first started with if everybody's tracking
• 24:21
  with the fact that
• 24:21
  i haven't forgotten where we were paul says in first
• 24:25
  corinthians 7 33 and 34 the
• 24:27
  husband is concerned about how to please his wife and the wife
• 24:30
  is concerned about
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: how to please her husband
• 24:33
  And to your point,
• 24:34
  we have to come to a point where we give the other the benefit
• 24:37
  of the doubt.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Paul penned the great treatise of depravity, the book of Romans.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: But he doesn't say to these husbands and wives,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know what,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: you're sinful and selfish,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: get over it.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're creating the image of God.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: That residual effect is still there.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: You can't be good enough to save yourself.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: We all need the Savior.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: We can't justify ourselves.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're justified by faith in what Jesus Christ did on the cross.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: But that doesn't mean that that creation,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: the image of God that resides within us,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: is somehow just exited.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's still there.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to have to make a decision.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Are your feelings...
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: that he's unloving,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: your feelings that she's disrespectful,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: accurate,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: or is your wife really concerned to please you?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And is your husband really concerned to please you?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: They just don't do it in the way that's pink or blue.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Does this make sense?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think – and this is – as you're sharing all these things,
• 25:33
  it always reminds me of like – I wonder how Paul conveyed this
• 25:38
  to the people he was
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: writing.
• 25:40
  And I would love to just be on a fly on the wall when he was
• 25:43
  talking sometimes and
• 25:45
  just think about all of the things that he was seeing and
• 25:48
  observing and then
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: writing about.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: But then also, it also gives me a little bit of hope in the sense that –
• 25:56
  These have always been the issues since probably before Paul
• 26:00
  was writing.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think you could find,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: love and respect issues,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: like especially back in like the Old Testament times.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I just did a series on preaching through the life of Jacob.
• 26:10
  And if anyone has troubled marriage,
• 26:13
  it's probably Jacob or maybe his granddad,
• 26:15
  Abraham.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: But regardless, like –
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's a lot of clean,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: tidy,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: put-together,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: put-in-this-nice-little-wrapped-bow marriages that you find in Scripture.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's kind of the point.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of shows us that marriage,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: this relationship east of Eden is kind of going to be a little bit...
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to require a lot of grace,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: both from above and from each other,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: in order to get through.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the point,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: that Paul makes,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: that I think Scripture makes,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: that you make so eloquently,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: is that that's part of this...
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's part of the game.
• 26:58
  That's part of the whole thing when it comes to loving your
• 27:04
  wife and the wife
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: respecting your husband.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's all part of learning how to do this along with the Holy Spirit,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is why it's applicable that he puts it,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: 1 Corinthians 13,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: within that section on spiritual gifts.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's the gifts of the Spirit anyways.
• 27:19
  But I think that's kind of the point is not that we're just,
• 27:23
  you know,
• 27:23
  finding...
• 27:25
  comfort in everyone else's misery but i think there is some
• 27:27
  comfort to be had in
• 27:28
  realizing that our struggles they're not out of the ballpark so
• 27:33
  to speak they're
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: not out of the norm no i mean that's well said again and
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: In reference to the Old Testament, yes, I think Paul meditated on it.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hosea, go love a woman who's an adulteress, right?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's that unconditional love.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we all know the story of Michael, who's married to David.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Michael was the daughter of Saul.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And David is worshiping the Lord.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: But in a decor, they had a loincloth on and she showed him contempt.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: She despised him in his heart.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: He came home to bless her after that worship and she despised him.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: She shamed him.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that marriage ended.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: She was barren.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the writer of the Old Testament is saying,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: in effect,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: that was God's discipline of her for her contempt toward King David,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: who was worshiping.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: she had her opinion,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: and she has a right to her opinion,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: but she needed to be guarded there.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Paul probably meditated on these characters,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: certainly in the case of Jacob and Rachel,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: where they were in this incredible love story that we often focus in on,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: But then later in marriage,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: which comes to all of us,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: and that's why Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: 28,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: if you marry,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: you have not sinned,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: but you will have trouble.
• 28:45
  And certainly that trouble you see even in the case of Jacob
• 28:49
  and Rachel where she
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: says,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: give me children or else I die.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then he in anger says, who am I in the place of God?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so here she's crying out on the heels of her infertility.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, she's hurting.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: But instead of being empathetic, he takes it personally as an attack.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then he gets angry at her.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you can see there clearly the crazy cycle that I unpack.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, in light bulb moments, I talk about Rachel and Jacob.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I revisit Hosea and Michael again.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And these are Old Testament characters.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yes, the negative encouragement is there.
• 29:23
  And these things Paul says twice,
• 29:25
  both in Romans and Corinthians,
• 29:26
  were written for our example.
• 29:28
  And we are to read these things and meditate on these things
• 29:31
  and learn and not
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: reinvent the wheel,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
• 29:35
  not continue to make the same mistakes and succumb to the same
• 29:40
  shortcomings.
• 29:41
  And we need to awaken and learn from these things and not think
• 29:43
  that we're an
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: exception to the rule.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's very good.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's very good, Dr. Eggers.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I wanted to ask you,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: because I think it's so helpful,
• 29:54
  especially just my upbringing and getting married and learning
• 29:57
  all these things and
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: learning the things that you didn't know before.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the whole thing with marriages.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're constantly learning.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: But how have you,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: as a speaker,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: a writer,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: and you've done all of these different things,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: counselor,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: with marriage,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: and I'll say gender roles,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: how have you been able to,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: or how have you,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm just curious,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: just as a person,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: how have you been able to try and navigate this relationship?
• 30:23
  conversation that's happening within the broader cultural
• 30:26
  sphere of like things
• 30:28
  pushing gender boundaries and all those sorts of conversations
• 30:31
  that are happening.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And how,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just imagining,
• 30:36
  how have you responded to people criticizing the way that you
• 30:40
  have approached
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: people?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 30:46
  obviously I'm coming from it probably from the same perspective
• 30:50
  as you are in terms
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: of my faith and my love for God,
• 30:53
  but how have you responded to people that are trying to sort of
• 30:57
  diminish this
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: because of...
• 30:59
  Just the way that you seem like from them,
• 31:02
  like,
• 31:02
  oh,
• 31:02
  man,
• 31:03
  you're just reducing these things.
• 31:04
  You're reducing all of these these,
• 31:06
  you know,
• 31:07
  nuanced things that go on within homes and stuff.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: How have you kind of responded to that over the years?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because it seems like it's more in the limelight.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's just me.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling it.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: But at least it feels more in the limelight in recent years.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully that makes sense.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, maybe there's two questions you're asking.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think the number one criticism comes from women.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we need respect as well.
• 31:29
  So they reduce the love and respect title to meaning that women
• 31:34
  don't need respect.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I devote whole sections in the book based on 1 Peter 3, 7.
• 31:42
  that men are to honor their wives,
• 31:44
  to respect their wives,
• 31:45
  to esteem their wives.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we unpack that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so we are very strong on that.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: In fact,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Peter,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: in 1 Peter 3,
• 31:54
  where he talks to the wives about winning their husbands
• 31:56
  through their respectful
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: behavior,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: the power of that.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And in verse 7, he talks about honoring the wife.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Peter doesn't even deal with love.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: He just ignores love altogether.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: the research would point out,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: and you see this with assigned marriages around the world,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: that in India...
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: They just learned,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: they don't have love,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: quote,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: quote,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: but they learned to be loving,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: but more than anything,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: to respect and honor each other.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: That respect is that driving quality.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly the research at the University of Washington said contempt,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: contempt is the most toxic ingredient in a marriage.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I just say to ladies, you know, look, you need respect.
• 32:32
  But you also need to understand that you have a tendency not
• 32:34
  only to demand respect
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: and you can hijack that conversation,
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: but you also give yourself license to show contempt.
• 32:40
  And so what you're not doing yourselves any favors or you have
• 32:44
  a power to win his heart.
• 32:46
  But if you get defensive and hijack the conversation and
• 32:48
  somehow feel that you're
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: being dismissed as a woman,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to miss the power that God has entrusted to you.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: But the deal is, yes, women need R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: But it comes back to that research again,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: where we've said,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: when you're in a conflict with your spouse,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: is it more likely that you feel unloved or disrespected?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And 72% of the women say they feel unloved.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And 83% of the men say they feel disrespected.
• 33:11
  So again,
• 33:11
  we talk about the fact that we all have a true need for love
• 33:14
  and respect.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: She needs respect, he needs love.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: But usually in conflict,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: day in and day out,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: the felt need kind of plays itself out based on the crazy cycle.
• 33:25
  And so I always appeal to people to just don't panic,
• 33:28
  don't let fear overcome you.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: But those critics out there are out there, but I just...
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Carl Henry,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: the great theologian,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: said you can either be pro-Christus or anti-Antichrist.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can either be pro-Christus or anti-Antichrist.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I just stay proactive.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I know I've got my critics out there.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: One woman said, I've enabled the abuse of 100,000 women.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: But other than that, you know, I'm doing okay.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the issue here is what does the scripture say?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: And is God some cosmic killjoy?
• 33:58
  And or is this an antiquated worldview that needs to be
• 34:02
  dismissed as first century?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or is there a truth here borne out in research academically, which it is?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And is it powerful to bring about the
• 34:11
  connection that most women in this case long for i say do you
• 34:15
  want your husband to
• 34:16
  soften turn toward you look at you and connect i think i have
• 34:20
  the secret that's
• 34:21
  been hidden in plain sight and it works now the second part of
• 34:24
  that question may be
• 34:25
  the issue of gender issues that are that are present in the
• 34:29
  culture and again i
• 34:30
  just quote jesus in matthew 19 4 who said have you not read he
• 34:34
  who made the friend
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: the beginning
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe Jesus.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: I stand with Jesus.
• 34:40
  If you say that he didn't know what we now know today,
• 34:43
  that's your prerogative.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: I happen to believe that he is the incarnate one,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: the son of God,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: and that when he speaks,
• 34:50
  he speaks from the heart of the father and he knows what he's
• 34:53
  talking about.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if we believe that and trust that, in the end, it'll work out well.
• 34:58
  We need to trust that even though we're having moments of doubt
• 35:01
  about who we are,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: why we're here.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because I wasn't raised in the church,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: as I told you,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: I came to a point where I'm going to trust Christ.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to trust him.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he went to the cross for me.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: He loves me.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: He's for me.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to trust Christ.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the chapters.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Will I live by the Holy Word or by Hollywood?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the challenge of all of us.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to think that through myself.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to land on Scripture.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if Jesus said it, I'm going to trust him.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that, though, is a decision we make by faith.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's so true,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: and I think it's so important to remember,
• 35:37
  especially in the sense that as the chapter that you just kind
• 35:43
  of referenced,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: the Holy Word versus Hollywood,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: you mentioned this in Love and Respect,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: but now you're devoting a whole chapter to it here in Lightbulb Moments,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is great,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: and
• 35:54
  we are people that are often informed by our environments,
• 35:58
  by our upbringing.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: So like,
• 35:59
  can you speak to the ways in which you think you've noticed
• 36:03
  over decades of
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: ministry,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: but also just in your own experiences,
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 36:07
  how we've let other things other than scripture kind of inform
• 36:11
  our view of,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: of what marriage should to be?
• 36:15
  Because,
• 36:16
  and I guess I should let you answer that,
• 36:18
  but I also wanted to say that like,
• 36:19
  uh,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Your note about God being this cosmic killjoy,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: is very apt as well,
• 36:26
  because I think that's another one of those assumptions that we
• 36:30
  often make about
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: this God.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: He's this grump up in the sky who has a long white beard,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: and he just wants everyone to get off his lawn.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just kind of who he is.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And he's this deity that doesn't really want you to flourish and thrive.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean that in the sort of prosperity gospel sense.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just mean it in the sense that God has never wanted you...
• 36:51
  and who you're married to to be in the throes of the crazy
• 36:58
  cycle all the time no he
• 36:59
  has actually wired each of you individually in such a way like
• 37:04
  it's by design he
• 37:05
  wants this to flourish in a sense and to be more on the nose
• 37:10
  with Ephesians 5 but
• 37:12
  the husband and wife are meant to sort of be this picture for
• 37:15
  the gospel.
• 37:16
  It's meant to be a window by which we are able to see the love
• 37:20
  of Christ for his
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: bride,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: the church.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole point of it all.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: So anyways,
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: how do you think,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: what are some of the ways in which we've let other media,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: other influences,
• 37:31
  other voices kind of influence our view of that in a lot of
• 37:36
  negative ways?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, again, that is an excellent question.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why before Ephesians 5,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Paul said in chapter 3,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: that which has been revealed to us,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: holy apostles and prophets in the spirit.
• 37:50
  Hebrews talks about he's spoken through the Old Testament in
• 37:53
  many ways and so on and so forth.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: But now he's spoken to us through his son.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus himself said, he who has seen me has seen the Father.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: These were all passages, many others, scriptures inspired by God.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus himself said, it is written, it is written, it is written.
• 38:10
  Man shall not live by bread alone,
• 38:11
  by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: And even Peter,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: talking about Paul's writings in his second epistle,
• 38:21
  that he said that the Holy Spirit not only moved men that he
• 38:26
  had talked about
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: earlier,
• 38:27
  but he said they distort Paul's writings as they do the rest of
• 38:32
  the scriptures to
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: their own destructions.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: So even in that moment in time,
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Peter,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: who was essentially replaced by Paul,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: if you think about it,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so you see Acts,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Peter's the main character,
• 38:44
  but then he kind of cowers out a little bit and Peter is
• 38:48
  replaced by Paul,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: but he's not jealous at the end of his life.
• 38:51
  He's saying instead they distort Paul's writings as they do the
• 38:54
  rest of the
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: scriptures,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: meaning Paul's writings are already viewed as scripture by Peter.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's equal to Isaiah, equal to Jeremiah.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is just stunning.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: And this was the richness of studying the Bible 30 hours a week.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: You suddenly realize what is being said in these passages.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just that.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's all over the place.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's unbelievably powerful.
• 39:18
  So as a believer,
• 39:20
  I had to come to a point to,
• 39:21
  am I going to live by what is written?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 39:23
  we all know that there are passages that require interpretation
• 39:27
  as a freedom to go
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: left or right.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wrote a book called The Four Wills of God.
• 39:32
  looking at the four wills that are revealed in the new
• 39:34
  testament say this is the
• 39:35
  will of god and it's connected with a certain behavior there
• 39:38
  are no other passages
• 39:39
  like that now we know there's more to the will of god than
• 39:42
  those four but these
• 39:43
  four are the it's almost like god highlights these in yellow
• 39:47
  and says listen and
• 39:49
  we're to follow those but a lot of times yeah in my years of
• 39:52
  counseling a college
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: town like
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: I put it in an acronym called BAGS, B-A-G-S, B-A-G-S.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: In other words,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: you believe in Jesus Christ,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: you abstain from sexual immorality,
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: you give thanks in all things,
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: and you submit in doing what is right.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Each of these,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: John 6,
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: then in the Thessalonians passage,
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: those two in the middle,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: and then Peter talks about this.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: trusting Christ,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: believing in Him,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: walking in moral purity,
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: giving thanks even when situations are not...
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: necessarily to our benefit,
• 40:24
  and submitting and doing what's right when I could get away
• 40:27
  with doing what's
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: wrong,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: that if a person's locked into doing that,
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: we're in the center of his will,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: we're bringing him pleasure,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: and we find pleasure in pleasing him.
• 40:36
  But young people would come to me and say,
• 40:37
  you know,
• 40:37
  they wanted to know God's will.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I said,
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 40:40
  if Jesus Christ appeared to you tonight and told you to do
• 40:43
  something you didn't
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: want to do,
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: and you'd have to do it for the next 30 years,
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: and it was truly Jesus Christ,
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: not just eating a bad bagel with bad cheese,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: That if he really did appear to you,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: would you do what he asked you to do,
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: though you didn't want to do it?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: And Brad,
• 40:58
  it's amazing to me that there were a significant percentage of
• 41:00
  people who would say
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: no to that.
• 41:03
  And so I said,
• 41:04
  do you really want me to counsel you as a pastor on God's will
• 41:08
  for you?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to me you're praying.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: You don't pray, Lord, your will be done, not my will be done.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: But you're saying, Lord, your will be done.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: My will be done, but not your will be done.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we reversed that.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: And people were tender about that.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: They would suddenly realize it for the first time that, wow.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk about the fact that God has his universal will for all of us.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he has his unique will.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: for each of us,
• 41:31
  but he's not gonna reveal his unique will if I'm not aligned
• 41:33
  with his universal
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: will.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I say to people,
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: if you were God and you told people,
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: here are the four things I kind of want you to do,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: we're all gonna fail,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: just confess,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: but resume it again,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: or are you gonna be,
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: tell me,
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: God,
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: What I want to hear from you,
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: and by the way,
• 41:48
  I'm not going to do those four universal things until you
• 41:51
  reveal to me what you
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: want of me,
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: actually what I want you to do for me.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: I said, it doesn't work that way.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: And each of us has to then come to that point where in marriage,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: now coming back to what we're saying is,
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: what if the Lord is asking me to love this woman who's disrespectful?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Am I saying, I didn't sign up for this.
• 42:13
  Or what if the Lord wants me to have a respectful demeanor
• 42:16
  toward this husband
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: who's failing to be what I expect him to be?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't sign up for this.
• 42:21
  And so there's a tendency to gather people around us who are
• 42:26
  going to tell us that
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: what we're feeling is correct.
• 42:29
  And so all of us have to come to that point where we are going
• 42:33
  to trust Christ,
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: in this case,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: to be obedient to Ephesians 5.33.
• 42:38
  That I'm going to be a loving husband regardless of my wife
• 42:42
  because this is who God
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: has called in me to be.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, in Ephesians 5.21...
• 42:49
  That section begins with submit to each other out of reverence
• 42:53
  for Christ.
• 42:54
  He goes from the horizontal to the vertical and he continues in
• 42:57
  the next verse.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Wives, do what you do, ask to the Lord.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: You husbands, love, ask Christ.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: He goes horizontal, vertical.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: And one point I make is Sarah's irrelevant.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord's going to say to me, Emerson, did you love Sarah?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: Lord, do you realize how unlovable that woman was?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Do you realize how disrespectful she was?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you realize the issues she sat on because of her upbringing?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: Emerson, whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Son, was this my command to you?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Did you do this out of trust and obedience to me?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Did you do this out of love and reverence toward me?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: see,
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: that's where I talk about in the book,
• 43:27
  living with that perspective in mind and the eternal
• 43:31
  perspective of hearing well
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: done.
• 43:33
  And each of us has to come to a crossroads where we make a
• 43:37
  decision that I'm going
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: to listen to the Holy Word,
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: not to Hollywood,
• 43:40
  that I'm going to have voices out there who often are going to
• 43:44
  try to protect me
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: from pain.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we're also going to turn to people who,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: if they've been divorced three times,
• 43:49
  are not going to promote a standard of righteousness higher
• 43:51
  than they've lived out.
• 43:52
  People don't want to be a hypocrite on the heels of their own
• 43:54
  inadequacies.
• 43:55
  So we've got to be very attentive to who we're listening to,
• 43:59
  and we've got to make a decision.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Who ultimately are we going to respond to?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: All of us have a mental committee.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Who's chairing that committee?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Whose approval are we seeking?
• 44:09
  There are people trolling on social media who will tell us,
• 44:12
  divorce the bum.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: So all of us come to that moment.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about good friends of ours.
• 44:19
  This gal was about to be married,
• 44:21
  and they're best of friends of ours to this day.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: She was single.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: She had led 60 women to Christ alone.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: on the campus at Michigan State University as a parachurch organization.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: She was part of 60 Girls Came to Christ.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Then she was going to marry this man,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: who eventually,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: to get ahead of myself,
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: they did marry,
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: and they were instrumental in 90 people going into the ministry.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: 90 couples went into the ministry because of this couple.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: But prior to them getting married,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: she went to see a Barbra Streisand movie,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: which was a romantic comedy,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: and she called off the marriage ceremony.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because this man was godly.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he loved God.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: He wanted to do God's will.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: He had an evangelistic gift, but he wasn't romantic.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't write poetry.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't make her laugh as much.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't a jokester.
• 45:05
  He was just a good man who loved Christ and was always looking
• 45:08
  for ways to lead
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: people to Christ and did again and again and again.
• 45:12
  He walked in the spirit,
• 45:14
  but she called it off because he wasn't this romantic person.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Surprise me.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Make me laugh.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, romance me.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't in that camp.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that he
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: didn't ever do that.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it wasn't in accordance with that idealism that she wanted.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: And someone said to her,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: are you living for real love,
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: R-E-E-L,
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: R-E-E-L,
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: the real of Hollywood,
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: or real love,
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: biblically,
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: R-E-A-L?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like this blinder just went right off of her eyes,
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: and she saw that she was being deceived about this.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: And she
• 45:49
  They married,
• 45:50
  and then those 90 people went into the ministry because of
• 45:53
  them.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: my point here is this,
• 45:55
  that initially we may be feeling that we're having to sacrifice
• 45:58
  something by being
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: obedient to Jesus Christ.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: There will be that test.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to be tested.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus himself experienced those.
• 46:05
  But he's going to see,
• 46:06
  are you going to remain faithful to my word,
• 46:08
  rightly divided?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not talking about gray area issues that all of us can debate.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about obedience areas that we know.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: We just know.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: We just know.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Our conscience is there.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: We just know.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: We can see it in Scripture.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that decision.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Will we choose to be trusting and obedient?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'll tell you this.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: There is a short-haul sacrifice.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: People may walk away from you.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: I remember coming to Christ.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: I realized I couldn't continue on with certain friends.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they're going to intimidate you.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: I remember this person saying, you're a holy roller.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: You think you're a holy roller?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: It just was nasty.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even think that I was... I felt like I wasn't holy enough.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought she only knew.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: But nonetheless, you have this time where you have to make a decision.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately...
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord will honor you, not unlike this couple I just talked about.
• 46:56
  He's not,
• 46:56
  as we've just referenced,
• 46:57
  a cosmic killjoy to pull the rug out from underneath you.
• 47:01
  He's not trying to say,
• 47:02
  trust me and pull the rug out and then laugh at us.
• 47:04
  But instead,
• 47:05
  he's saying,
• 47:06
  there's a blessing,
• 47:08
  but you need to be obedient first.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I got on my high horse preaching there.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm deeply concerned because all of us have to come to that point.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 47:16
  Billy Graham was being mocked for his simple faith from a
• 47:20
  friend of his who had
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: gone to Princeton,
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: and said,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: your faith is too simple,
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Billy.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Your just faith is too simple.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: And Billy was at Forest Home in California before the L.A.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: crusade he was going to have.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: And he was struggling.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: And he finally got down on his knees and opened up the Bible and said,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: God,
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: if you said you spoke through Balaam's donkey,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to believe it as such.
• 47:40
  And I'm going to preach it as such,
• 47:41
  even though I can't understand a lot of things.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the day that Billy Graham at the beginning of that L.A.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: crusade said, the Bible says, the Bible says.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that crusade went on for weeks.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was the media person mogul who said, Puff Graham.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: And around the world, Billy Graham became a phenomena.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it was on the heels of him getting down at his knees and saying,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to trust you,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: Lord Jesus.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I would also echo that same light bulb moment,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: and I would never say that my wife is irrelevant,
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: but I like how you say that,
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: which is the sense that like my calling,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: me,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: my calling under the will of God is to glorify God.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that has a lot of like,
• 48:31
  That's the hub,
• 48:33
  and there's a lot of spokes that emerge out of that,
• 48:37
  obviously.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the hub,
• 48:40
  and I think a lot of the times we get on the crazy cycle
• 48:44
  because we're putting
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: something else in the center of that spoke.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're putting something else there when it's all about sola dea gloria.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's glorifying God first and foremost.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that's been a light bulb moment for me.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: If I want to be the best...
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: that I can be for my wife or the best dad for my kids,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: it really starts with glorifying God first,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: and everything else is going to trickle down from there.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I did want to ask you,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: and I know we're running out of time,
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: but I wanted to ask you this because...
• 49:17
  I'm sure you've gotten questions from different interviewers
• 49:20
  and stuff like that
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: about,
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: like what's the biggest marriage myth and all that kind of stuff.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: But how would you frame this for pastors?
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like if pastors are going to,
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe this is a selfish question because I'm a pastor,
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 49:33
  If you're going to frame love and respect or light bulb moments
• 49:37
  into churches,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: depending on their denomination or whatever,
• 49:42
  they'll do marriage seminars and marriage conferences or
• 49:45
  marriage preaching series.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: What are some ways in which you've seen pastors,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: get that wrong in how they've kind of...
• 49:55
  Not been faithful to kind of not just what you're saying,
• 49:58
  but what the Bible is saying.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: And how can we,
• 50:00
  how can pastors do a better job at communicating this
• 50:05
  glorifying God first gospel
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: centered sort of way in which to approach the marriage relationship,
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: if that makes sense.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: what comes to my mind is I think we have to understand,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: one,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: that's why I wrote Ephesians 533 in a book called Love and Respect,
• 50:20
  because I think it's the systematic theology on what God has
• 50:23
  revealed to husbands
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: and wives,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: and it's fair and balanced.
• 50:28
  49% of those who initiate coming to our Love and Respect
• 50:31
  conference is the man.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was going to write Love and Respect,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: the editors told me,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: the publisher,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: slant it toward women.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew where this question was going, and I said, well, why?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, well, the women are the ones who
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know, purchase the marriage books.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I said,
• 50:45
  did it ever occur to you that that's happening because you keep
• 50:48
  telling authors
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: like me to slant it toward women?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: I said, you let me write this book in the biblical fair and balanced.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in Proverbs 3, she breaks the covenant.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Malachi, he breaks the covenant.
• 51:00
  I mean,
• 51:00
  I went back through and it's pretty fair and balanced all the
• 51:02
  way through.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 is going back and forth.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I'm going to call the next book, The Win-Win Marriage.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's very mutual.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is this really fair and balanced approach to it.
• 51:12
  And that's why 49% of those who initiated coming to our
• 51:15
  conference were men,
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: because men are not indifferent to marriage.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: I say to women, what was he like during courtship?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: He's still there.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: But if you continue to have this disrespectful,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: negative,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: critical thing,
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: he's just going to shut down and withdraw on Stonewall,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: not because he doesn't want to do marriage.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's because he doesn't know how to deal with this.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say to women,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: if you've got sons,
• 51:34
  do you want your sweet daughter-in-law to treat your son the
• 51:36
  way you're treating
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: your husband?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like a light bulb comes on for many women.
• 51:40
  That's the thing that turns the corner for them because they
• 51:42
  realize,
• 51:42
  whoa.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because my boy's not going to understand that.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, your husband is somebody's boy.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't fully understand that.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not that he's not in this.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, women are leaving marriage three to one more than men are.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's in.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: He's dedicated.
• 51:54
  And so there is this challenge for all of us to step back and
• 51:58
  realize scripture is
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: fair and balanced.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so pastors need to understand, though, this is what happens.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll see them being hypersensitive.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: You don't say to women, respect your man.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to unpack this very wisely.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can't go that approach.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time,
• 52:14
  you need to understand the men don't complain and criticize on
• 52:17
  the heels of your
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: sermon on marriage.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: The women will.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: They will be very quick.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: They'll come at you.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: They'll be negative about what you said.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to be very wise about how you say it.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: But you've also got to realize,
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: and I've had so many women say,
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: I hate this phrase,
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: happy wife,
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: happy life.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it says so unfair to the man.
• 52:36
  But what happens,
• 52:37
  men begin in the pulpit,
• 52:39
  begin to succumb to where this negative voice is.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean you're...
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: arrogant.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean you're stubborn.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean submit women.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: I tell all the time, I never tell Sarah to respect me or submit to me.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's God's revelation to her.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's none of my business.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: God has told me to love her.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to have a clear demarcation.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have ways of
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: of communicating that so it's disarming to the female.
• 53:03
  But you also need to see that there is a negativity coming at
• 53:07
  you primarily from
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: the female part of the church because they are fearful.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're not a mean-spirited.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're afraid.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't discern that,
• 53:17
  you're going to end up really hitting the men really hard and
• 53:21
  you're going to turn
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: the men off.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the men are just going to be distant from you.
• 53:24
  That's why men don't really enjoy church too much,
• 53:27
  because they're getting beat up.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then we say they're making excuses.
• 53:32
  I've spoken at AACC,
• 53:34
  American Association of Christian Counselors,
• 53:36
  many times.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I've said to them,
• 53:38
  if I could show you how to get men to line up outside your
• 53:41
  counseling doors,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: would you be interested?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I once spoke at the plenary session and,
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: it's like seven,
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: eight thousand people there.
• 53:50
  And I pulled them in on a topic and fifteen hundred came into
• 53:54
  my workshop afterwards.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: One guy said, well, there went my workshop.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: But there is a hunger on the part of counselors to know this,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: because what happens in that counseling session,
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: the.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: Women love third party support.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: They love talking about the relationship.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: They invite that in.
• 54:11
  But what happens is the man sits there with his arms across
• 54:14
  like this with the
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: pastor or with the counselor.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he looks like he is the problem here.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: And she starts to cry.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: She gives voice because she articulates.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Women are what we call episodic.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: The episodes.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: They'll remember the episodes.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: They remember them in detail.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: And he's clueless.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you're subjecting him in a situation where he looks like he's guilty.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: So guess what happens?
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: He stops coming.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then we tell him he's unteachable.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not that maybe we taught something inappropriately.
• 54:42
  So love and respect is designed to help pastors present this in
• 54:47
  a way that I think
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: is in keeping with the apostles teaching.
• 54:51
  And now to the point,
• 54:52
  I am thrilled if pastors and counselors would get this book.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: You talk about taking men and women through this.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 54:59
  I am more excited in some ways because I just wrote it about
• 55:02
  this than I'm in about
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: love and respect because all these people giving their testimonies,
• 55:06
  but I've also gone deeper and you just give it to a person like
• 55:09
  a husband or wife
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: and just say,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: let's just talk about this for a while.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have a small group series coming out.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: I just think the one, two punch, love and respect.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be a one, two, three punch, love and respect.
• 55:21
  light bulb moments,
• 55:21
  and then next year,
• 55:22
  win-win marriage,
• 55:24
  kind of a trilogy here.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: I just think we can serve men and women in a way that will bring about,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: I hope,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: an awakening that we didn't think possible.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm enthused, can you tell?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: I love to hear it, Dr. Agrees.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm enthused as well.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know you have to get off here.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll just, you've already plugged it.
• 55:45
  But I think today,
• 55:47
  as we're recording this,
• 55:48
  this is the release day for Lightbulb Moments.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: January 27, 2026.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're a special.
• 55:54
  You're the only podcast I'm doing on the day of this major
• 55:56
  launch,
• 55:56
  HarperCollins Worldwide.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you're the man, Brad.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so honored for that.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: Where can people find it?
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: Where should people go to either find that book,
• 56:06
  but also where can they go to find you and just plug whatever
• 56:10
  you need to?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm really thankful for your time here today.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, thank you.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, loveandrespect.com, L-O-V-E-A-N-D-R-E-S-P-E-C-T.com.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can come to our website and love for people to visit that.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: But every outlet, Amazon, every bookstore, I mean, it's everywhere.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: And wherever books are sold, as they say, it'll be available to you.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have the Christian retailers like we used to.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that is very much we're missing.
• 56:39
  But I think most of us know how to order on Amazon and the
• 56:41
  doorbell rings.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Love that.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time.
• 56:46
  We'll make sure to put all the links to those things in the
• 56:49
  notes for this show.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Dr. Grace.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a joy to have you on,
• 56:53
  and I look forward to diving into some of the small group stuff
• 56:57
  that come out of
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Lightbulb Moments,
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: and I look forward to using that in my own church.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: So once again, thank you.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate you.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 57:03
  I hope you've been blessed by this episode of the Ministry
• 57:06
  Minded podcast.
• 57:08
  If you haven't yet,
• 57:08
  please go and make sure you're subscribed to the Ministry
• 57:11
  Minded podcast.
• 57:11
  You can do so on Apple or on Spotify or right here on Substack,
• 57:14
  wherever you get your podcast.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you check out the show notes.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of good stuff there.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure to order.
• 57:19
  Dr.
• 57:20
  Egric's new book,
• 57:21
  Lightbulb Moments in Marriage,
• 57:22
  links are in the notes.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: Check those out.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for all of your encouragement and for all your support.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you always for listening and commenting and subscribing.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your notes.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your words of encouragement recently.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very,
• 57:36
  very thankful to all of you who read and listen to the things
• 57:39
  that I'm eager to put
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: out here on Grace Upon Grace.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so until then, I'll see you on the next episode.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: Blessings.