Latest / The Bechdel Cast / The Perks of Being a Wallflower with Maya Williams

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The Perks of Being a Wallflower with Maya Williams · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: it with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: Hey, Jamie, Hey Kitlyn, I feel infinite? Do you feel infinite?
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Okay? No, but okay, God, you're having a nice time.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Seems like maybe you've had a pop brownie, but like
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: maybe it's your first time doing this. Yeah, yeah, it'll
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: feel that way. Oh my god, I texted you this,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Kaitlin when we were This is very dark. But first
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: of all, I am a recent Pittsburgh like obsessive. I
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: love Pittsburgh. I went for the first time last month,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: and I'm just like, Pittsburgh's amazing. So it's happy to
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: see Pittsburgh. However, every time they're standing up in that
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: damn tunnel, I'm waiting for like a hored terry moment,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I was like, this is so like Emma Watson's head is.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Gonna burst off, you know.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't stop the I rewatched Hereditary recently and
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: that's on me. But like every time they would stay
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I was like, you, I went full. It's so fun
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: watching teen movies now that you're like, now that I'm
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: like aunt aged and I'm just like, don't you're gonna
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: You're gonna get hurt. Kids. Stop. I loved that scene.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: This movie is so corny. I love it. Yeah, all right,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Derante, and this is our show
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point to initiate
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: larger conversations. But Jamie, what even is that?
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Oh? Well, I can tell you. The Bechdel Test was
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Wallace Test. It was originally written as a one off joke,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: a bit in Alison Bechdel's comment collection Dikes to Watch
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: out For, but has since become a metric that people
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: used to to see how much movies are interested in men.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of different versions of this test.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: The version we use requires that two people of a
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: I guess not people. It could be cartoon squirrels. I
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: don't know why I said people. I feel like that's
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: really putting movies at a box, because then car, what
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: about cars?
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: What about cars? And that's a question that only we
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: are brave enough to ask.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I apologize for my misspeaking. Uh not just
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: people anyways, that's what the Bechdel test is.
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, not to derail us, but your mention of
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: cartoon squirrels reminded me of our episode on National Treasure,
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: which I recently re listened to an anticipation of I
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: don't know, maybe are we going to cover National Treasure too.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: It's almost like you texted me about it yesterday and
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: we're like, and I didn't answer right away, and then
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: you're like bump, like, oh my god.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: I was like, please answer me right now. We have
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: to do it. But the joke we kept making in
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: the first National Treasure episode was about how Justin Bartha
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: is basically a cartoon squirrel like Disney animal sidekick person.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: We were right about that, Yeah, we were right about that.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: I think even honestly, Justin Bartha would agree, would agree
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: and maybe even be flattered. I hope I have not.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm pro Bartha. It's true, you are.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: I always happened.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: Well, that didn't pass the Bechdel test.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: No I didn't. It did not oops, not even close.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: And today we have we have two exciting bits of news.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: We have a Bartha List movie and we have an
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: amazing guest.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: We sure do.
• 4:05
  Speaker 5: I'm better than Justin Bartha. That's so nice.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Better than Bartha. Ooh, new shirt in coming seems a
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: little mean spirited, but it's true.
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Well, I also think he might agree with that.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I know, I like that. We have decided that Justin
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Bartha is very humble. That's just how we characterized him
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: in or that's headcannon for the Bechdel cast. Justin Bartha
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: humble bumble.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe that's.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: The merch Yeah yeah, we designed sure he could Justin
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Bartha not to do the Alfred Molina game, but Justin
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Bartha could have played the Paul Red character in this movie.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Oh sure, Bartha. I mean not that he should have.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: I feel like Paul Red Cool Teacher is like this movie.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk about it because it is
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: like so twenty twelve, even though it takes place in
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, You're like, this is the most twenty
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: twelve movie that's ever come out, where like Emma Watson
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: can do an American accent, Paul Rudd, cool teacher, like
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: just there, she can't do an America.
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: For folks who can't say me, I did like a Soso.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Movement a Watson. You know what, what can I say? Okay?
• 5:24
  Speaker 6: So I think the word Alfred Molina turns up in
• 5:28
  Speaker 6: the history of like a search engine for Bechdel cast
• 5:31
  Speaker 6: like one hundred and nine tags or something like that.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: That's good.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: So cool.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: What I hear when you say that is could be higher,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: could be more. Yeah, and we've.
• 5:43
  Speaker 5: Still go higher. Yes you do?
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, Yeah, let's get to work on that.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: In the meantime, the movie today is The Perks of
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: Being a Wallflower. Our guest is a religious, black, multiracial,
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: none binary suicide survivor who is currently the seventh Poet
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: Laureate of Portland, Maine. Air debut collection, Judas and Suicide
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: is available now via Game Over Books. Maya was one
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: of three artists of color selected to represent Maine in
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: the Kennedy Center's Arts across America series in twenty twenty.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: They recently published essays in venues such as The Daily Beast,
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: Black Girl, Nerds, Honey Literary, and The Rumputs. Maya was
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: also selected as one of the Advocates Champions of Pride
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two, and you can follow more of
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: their work at Maya williamspoet dot com. It's Maya Williams.
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: Welcome. Come, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
• 6:49
  Speaker 5: I love I love listening to y'allso so much.
• 6:52
  Speaker 6: Y'all have gotten me through so many, so many drives
• 6:55
  Speaker 6: and just so much. And y'all are hilarious and y'all
• 6:59
  Speaker 6: are really it and thank you. And also Jamie ghost Church,
• 7:05
  Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, obsessed.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: You're welcome.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: The only good thing to happen in Florida kind of. Oh,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: We're so happy you're here. I'm happy to be doing
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: this for a bit. So we're covering perks of being
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: a ware flower wallfire wallflower, long, long, long time requests
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: from our listeners.
• 7:31
  Speaker 5: Amazing, I did not know. Pat.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like this is like a late millennial classic.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, but I'm curious.
• 7:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: So it's Oh, now we get to hear me say
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: someone's last name for the first time. Written and directed
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: by Stephen.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: Schabowski, that was my best gift.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Let's go at that. And he also wrote the book.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: So I think it's it's I feel like that's very
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: rare where you get an adaptation where it's like, well,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: it's just this guy, and usually it likes switch a
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: tant So I think it's like really interesting. So, Maya,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: what's your history with the Perks of being a Wallflower?
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: The movie, the book, the Expanded Universe.
• 8:12
  Speaker 6: My history with it. I read the book when I
• 8:15
  Speaker 6: was in high school. I watched the movie, and I
• 8:18
  Speaker 6: remember like watching the commentaries as like a teenager too
• 8:23
  Speaker 6: and like being so yeah, I was so obsessed with
• 8:27
  Speaker 6: it at the time. And then, like, while writing my
• 8:30
  Speaker 6: poetry collection Judas and Suicide, had been revisiting a lot
• 8:33
  Speaker 6: of the movies that first brought up suicidality for me
• 8:38
  Speaker 6: in a formative way. So then i rewatched this movie,
• 8:41
  Speaker 6: rewatch the commentaries and everything, and I'm like, hmm, twenty
• 8:45
  Speaker 6: seven year old me still loves this, and also, huh,
• 8:50
  Speaker 6: fuck Charlie, fuck Patrick.
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: So I'm really excited to dive in.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, here we go, yeah.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: There's oh, there's there's so much going on in this
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: damn movie, Jamie.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: What's your relationship with it?
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: I really didn't have much of a relationship with this movie. Weirdly,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: I think it's like a micro micro generational thing where
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: this came out like when I was early in college,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: and I think I was like, I'm cal I like,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: you've talked about this different for different movies of like
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: I'm in college now, I don't watch movies about high schoolers. Wow,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: And so I missed this movie. I didn't. I didn't
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: see it, and then I just kind of never got
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: around watching it. And then by the time I thought
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: to watch it, I was like, I don't want to
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: watch a movie with Ezra Miller in it, right, But
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: it's I read it was I think last year was
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: the ten year anniversary of this movie, and I saw
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: a lot written about it, sort of as a retrospective.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: And I'm really excited you brought us this movie because
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: I feel like this movie is doing a lot and
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: it's also not doing a lot. It's a it's a
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: pretty fascinating thing. I mean, what I will say is
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: I I enjoyed this movie based on it's just like
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: raw sincerity, and like, I feel like there's especially with
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: movies that are like this baldly sincere, people will always
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: kind of dunk on them. But yeah, I like that
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: if like that's teen, movies should be wildly sincere from
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: time to time. That's okay, It's just the other stuff
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: that we have to talk about, right, But yeah, I
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: I generally enjoyed this movie, and I think it's very
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: interesting to watch with twenty twenty three goggles on. I
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: know that if I had seen this movie when I
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: was twelve, I would have lost my shit. Caitlyn, what's
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: your history of this movie? Had you seen it before
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: I had?
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: Yes? I think I don't know, maybe three or four
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: years ago. I have never read the book, But this
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: is a book that everyone I went to high school
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: with and everyone I went to college with talked about
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: it incessantly. And I don't know if it was a
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: regional thing because I grew up in western Pennsylvania and
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: Pittsburgh is the closest major city to where I'm from. Wow,
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: And I went to penn State for undergrad and did
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: get a bachelor's degree in film and television, something that
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: I actually never mentioned, but because it's such a Pennsylvania
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: centric movie and there's lots there's lots of references, like
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: when she's like, you have to go to the diner
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: and get grilled stickies, I was like, you do have
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: to do that. But I just never bothered with the book.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: I don't know why. And then the movie came and
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: went and I was like, well into adulthood, so I
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: was like, I don't need to be watching coming of
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: age stories. I've already done that. So but then a
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: few years ago I watched it, and then when I
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: started rewatching it for this episode, I realized that every
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: memory I have of this is actually from Edge of
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: seventeen because I think I watched them around the same time,
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: and they there's I feel like they're similar coming of
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: age like high school movies. Though I did see this one,
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: I just didn't remember anything from it, so not much
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: of an attachment to it except for the reference to
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: grilled stickies and the several references to Olive Garden.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Ough. I mean, truly, this movie is doing things that others.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: The Olive Garden reference representation is at an all time high.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: It's true in this movie.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: And I also, I mean not that this is like,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: but I was, like, how many movies take place in Pittsburgh.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: It's just like, not a lot.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: The dad is a Penguins fan. It's kind of fun anyways, Yeah, yeah,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: this is I mean. And also I guess for listeners
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: this episode and this movie if you haven't seen it before, Yeah,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: there will be talk about suicidality as well as child
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: sex abuse in the space of this which I did
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: not see coming at the end of the movie I watched.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, I usually watched stuff twice for the show,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: but like, I definitely had to watch this movie twice
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: to go back and watch it with that knowledge. And
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know, we have so much to talk about,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: but just if those are sensitive issues for you, that's
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: going to come up in this episode for.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: Sure, Let's take a quick break and then come right
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: back for the recap. Okay, So the movie is set
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: in the early nineties in a suburb of Pittsburgh. Ever
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: heard of it?
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we Pittsburgh number one fan Heinz Ketchup Factory.
• 13:59
  Speaker 6: What a Bye raw doc now by Jamie.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: I was disappointed that they didn't mention how close they
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: were to a ketchup factory the whole movie, but major oversight,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: something to think about for next time.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: We meet Charlie played by Logan Lherman. He is writing
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: a letter to someone we don't know who, and I
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: think we never find out, right, right.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:31
  Speaker 5: Well.
• 14:31
  Speaker 6: In the commentary, Stephen Chabaski says so for the book
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: he wants to keep dear Friend personal to him, but
• 14:40
  Speaker 6: for the movie, dear Friend is you as in the
• 14:45
  Speaker 6: viewer audience and my and my emotional ass cry.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: This movie is so corny.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: It is like pure American cheese, white America.
• 15:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, oh god, very white.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, emphasis on the white.
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: There's only one black actor and he does not speak.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I was I that. I feel like that is also
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: a very twenty twelve instinct to be like, sure, we
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: can have a like an openly queer character, but then
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: we'll have to hedge our bets by making sure every
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: cast member is white. And you're like, no, you don't
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: have to do that, or you could just make a movie,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: like you could just cast a movie to look like
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: a place that exists.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Wow. But then they were like, but it's twenty twelve,
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: which you.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Can tell from the weird Oh my god, I had
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: really I don't know. What a troubled time in youth fashion.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: The early twenty tens was where you're seeing like I
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: was like, why were we wearing these like little sweaters
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: that were for grandma's but they were actually for teenagers.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: It was so confusing how fem teenagers were just walking
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: around in these little sweaters.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, what a moment, But again, it was set. It's
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: set in the early nineties, so it should be like
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: nineties fashion.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I know, but I was like, that's
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: a twenty twelve little sweater. I know that damn sweater.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Sure it is not warm.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Okay. So he's writing a letter explaining how he spent
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: some time in the hospital. He alludes to some mental
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: health issues. He says he doesn't really have any friends,
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: but tomorrow is his first day of high school and
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: he's hoping to turn things around. So he goes to school.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: His sister Candace and her boyfriend.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Nina doprev You're just like Vampire Diaries, Degrassi. I could
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: go on diet wine. I think that's what she's feeling
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: right now.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: So Candace and her boyfriend Derek aka Ponytail, Derek aka
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Nicholas Brawn aka cousin Greg from Succession aka recently disgraced
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: actor Nicholas.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, not only is he a piece of shit, it's
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: not the first time he's played a character named Derek,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: because he also played Derek and Zola.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I always forget he's in that movie.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, he plays a guy named Derek. A lot
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: she was anyways, you hate to see it?
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. So his sister and Derek won't let Charlie
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: sit with them at lunch because it's the Earth Club
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: is for seniors only, and he's a freshman and he's
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: a loser. Also, his friend from middle school and his
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: older brother's friend, Brad both ignore Charlie, so his attempts
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: to make friends is not working. Then in shop class,
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: he meets Patrick played by Ezra Miller, who is a
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: senior who is picking on a teacher rather than freshman
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: as the other seniors tend to do. So Charlie immediately
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: likes Patrick.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: Quick comment on we'll just circle back and acknowledge it
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: as remeller stuff. A little later in the episode, but
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: the actor playing Brad I was like losing it. I
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: was like, what I've seen this person, I've seen this
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: person and it didn't come through a young Neil from
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Scott Pilgrim correct and Chip from Jennifer's body. Kind of
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: a camp hero. Yes, this guy true name's Johnny Simmons.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Good for him.
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: He's the kid who He's the kid who dies in
• 18:25
  Speaker 6: the beginning of twenty one Jump Street.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, what a legacy.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Not to brag, but I have twenty one and twenty
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: two Jump Street on DVD.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: So thoughts, brave, thank you, I still have not. I've
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: seen twenty one, I haven't seen twenty two, but people
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: love those movies.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: I think they're very funny.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Although ACAB includes twenty one Jump Street, it.
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: Just does, Yes, it sure does.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: It does anyway.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what a career Johnny Simmons.
• 18:59
  Speaker 6: Yeap.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: So, then Charlie goes to English class with his teacher,
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: mister Paul Rudd.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Go chal Rudd grew out his hair and is like,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: to kill a bocky bird? Ever heard of it? And
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: you're like, this is a lot. Yes, this is so
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: teen movie.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Charlie knows all of the answers to mister Paul Rudd's questions,
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: but he doesn't participate because he's so shy. He's a wallflower.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: Then at home we meet his mom and dad played
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: by Kate Walsh and Dylan McDermott, who reassure him that
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: he is going to make friends. Then at a football game,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: Charlie approaches Patrick, they chat, they become friendly. Charlie also
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: meets Sam played by Emma Watson.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: They do this shot or I mean, I just like
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Halo shot. Yeah, it's just I just want to really
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: embrace and point out this movie's beautiful corniness where yeah,
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: the first shot Emma and she's framed like she's God,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: and there's all these shots where she's like, Oh, it's
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: just so it's it's weird because I would say she's
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: not really a not like other girl's character because we
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: know a fair amount about her. I think she's like
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: characterized pretty well, but the way she's framed is definitely
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: not like other girl's characters.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: Here's what I wrote in my notes, Calm Pixie dream
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: girl because she's not very manic, she's pretty calm, but
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: she is a Pixie dream girl.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: She's definitely I mean, the Pixie's there, the dream Girl's there.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: But yeah, she's a pretty she's pretty chill.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: Chill pixie dream girl.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: Also, her first line of dialogue is something like I
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: have a question, Oh my god, could there be anything
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: more disgusting than the bathrooms? Or something like that. I'm like,
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: are you Chandler from Friends.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Ladies and Gentlemen. Emma Watson's American accent, it's she's trying
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: it out and we have to deal with it.
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: The Harry Pottery it gets better in Little Women, it
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: gets better.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: It does get better a Little Women. Give her seven years,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: she'll figure it out. There's like she's very like, she's
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: like young in this movie. I'm only dunking on her
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: because I would dunk on any of the three main
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: characters in Harry Potter. All of their American accents are bad,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: especially oh my god, sorry this is off the roils today.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: But Rupert Grint in Knock at the Cabin, Oh my god.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: They made his character from Boston for some reason, and
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: he's like blowing it. He's like, I don't know why.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: They were like, not only are you doing an American accent,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: it's like the most difficult regional accent to do. And
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: he's like, I'm from Waltham and you're like, oh god,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: this is brutal. I loved it.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: It's like when Anya Taylor Joy, who speaks English with
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: a British accent, was from Brockton. Brockton, right, yeah, I know.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was a big moment for my hometown
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: people thinking that Anya Taylor Joy might be from there.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: What was that movie again? Something on the menu?
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Right, the menu, Hot Girl cheeseburger. Anyways, Yeah, Emma, Emma
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Watson is a chill Pixie dream girl. She's wearing her sweaters,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: she's doing her American accent, and the movie is like,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: you're in love with her, So you're like, all right.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Yes indeed. So Patrick and Sam invite Charlie to hang
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: out with them after the football game. They talk about music.
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: Oh my, the part where Patrick's like, oh, don't let
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: her give her music, she'll ruin your life. And Charlie's
• 22:28
  Speaker 6: like that's okay. I'm like, chill, that's so sick. I
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: have too much.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I have to keep reminding myself that Charlie's fourteen, sure,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: because sometimes I'm just like this fucking kid. I'm like, okay,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: he is fourteen, this fucking kid. But it's confusing because
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: like whatever Logan Lerman is visibly twenty two, So it's
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: hard to be like he's fourteen because you're like, but
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: that's all but that's a man. Wow. Anyways, what can
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: you do?
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: So Charlie he finds out that Patrick and Sam are
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: step siblings. He assumes that they're dating, but they're like tea,
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: he no, this is my stepbrother. Then they drive through
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: a tunnel where Sam is like standing up in the
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: bed of Patrick's truck while Heroes by David Bowie plays,
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: But they're like, oh my god, what is this song?
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I love? I liked that too, because I feel like
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: that is such a teenage thing to hear a really
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: famous song for the first time and then be like
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: this song rules and yeah, everyone like over twenty five
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: is like yeah, yeah, it kind of famously does. It's see.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: So then there's a scene where Charlie gets back home
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: from hanging out with his new friends and he sees
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: his sister's boyfriend being physically abusive to her, and she
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: makes him promise not to tell their parents, which will
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: become a recurring mot heath of like keeping a secret,
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: So we'll put a pin in that. Then it's time
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: for the homecoming dance and Charlie musters up the courage
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: to go on the dance floor where Patrick and Sam
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: are dancing to come on, Eileen.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Then she's not like the other girls, dancing big time,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: going for it.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Then they go to this kid Bob's party, where Patrick
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: introduces Charlie to Mary Elizabeth played by May Whitman, and
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Alice played by Aaron will Helmy. They're part of this
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: friend group as well. Charlie eats a weed brownie for
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: the first time, not knowing it's a weed brownie, so
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: he gets high and he's like, why do the marching
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: band get letterman jackets? It's not even a sport, And
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: then the other yes, but then the other kids are like,
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: this kid's so wild, like oh my god, and it's
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: just like he didn't say anything at all really.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Though he changed the game that day. Yeah, it's so
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: funny how he's like being only a little bit weird,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: he's being like five percent weird, and everyone's like, whoa
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: this kid? What's going on with this kid? You're right,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: we got to meet more people. But maybe that's just
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: high school.
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: He also mentions to Sam that his best friend recently
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: died by suicide.
• 25:32
  Speaker 6: That's a detail that opens up in the book as
• 25:35
  Speaker 6: to why he's hospitalized the death of his friend who
• 25:39
  Speaker 6: died by suicide.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, got it, so that that is because Yeah, in
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: the movie it really doesn't come up very much.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: I think that's the only time it gets mentioned at
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: least explicitly.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And then while they're still at the party, Charlie
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: accidentally walks in on Patrick and that guy Brad kissing,
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: and Patrick takes Charlie aside and asks him to promise
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: not to say anything like this will be our little secret,
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: so more of this motif. Then Patrick toasts Charlie and
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: he says, you're one of us. Now, you're you're our friend.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: You see things, you understand, you're a wallflower, and we're like, whoo,
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: that's the name of the movie title.
• 26:29
  Speaker 6: I do find it very endearing though, with Charlie's like
• 26:32
  Speaker 6: what did I do and he's and Patrick's like, you
• 26:34
  Speaker 6: don't have to do anything.
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: I'm like, that's actually very fixed.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there are many elements of this movie. They
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: are very sweet and like down to like the really
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: corny Paul Rudd being like, we accept the love we
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: think we deserve and you're like yeah, sure, Like very
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: it's like very profound in a way that you're like,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: it's too profound, but I am crying, so whatever. Yeah,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I do love it. It's like he was right to
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: say it anyways.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, I guess he's not wrong. But that also
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: happens in a scene where where Charlie goes to mister
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Paul Rudd and he's like, why doesn't the girl I
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: like like me back, And I'm just like Charlie.
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: I think that's what was happening.
• 27:21
  Speaker 6: I think it was because like he saw his sister
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: with the abusive dude in the hallway and then he
• 27:27
  Speaker 6: came in. Because in the book he tells the teacher
• 27:30
  Speaker 6: what happened to his sister and it becomes a whole thing,
• 27:33
  Speaker 6: but they don't.
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: Do that in the movie.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Someon Wow, Okay, yeah, I would love to, you know, hear,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: because it's it's I mean, I know that there's also
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: like producer decisions, Like it's not like Steven Schabowski has
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: like carte blanche with what ends up in the movie,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: but because he's adapting his own work, I feel like
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: that's really interesting that some stuff is like opened up
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: on in the movies and other stuff is held back
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: on that's I like that. I like that much better.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, yeah, I guess I misunderstood. I was interpreting
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: that as like, because this is also because Sam has
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: been dating this guy named Craig who says something like,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: I don't write poetry.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: Poetry write poetry.
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: Write.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Beautiful No no, Maya as a poet pictures.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: I know, as a poet, may does poetry write you?
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Does poetry write you?
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: Jesus, oh my god.
• 28:32
  Speaker 6: Craig is the white Cis dude at the open mic
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: who's all like, this isn't gonna take long, and he
• 28:39
  Speaker 6: exceeds the three minute timeline like.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: An ah, yet it's saying nothing at all that part.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: So so anyway, so Sam is dating this guy Craig,
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: and I was interpreting that as like, Charlie's jealous and
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: he likes Sam and he wants to date Sam, and
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: he sees that Craig isn't good for her. So that's
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: what I thought that comment was more about in the movie.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: But in any case, Charlie has friends now and he,
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: like I mentioned, has a crush on Sam, who he
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: likes despite her quote unquote reputation which we will get
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: into later. He gives her a mixtape, but again she's
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: dating this kid named Craig. And then we get that
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: scene where he asks mister Paul Rudd about why do
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: nice people date the wrong people? And he says, we
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: accept the love we think we deserve.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: And then every teenager in the crowd is like wow.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: Meanwhile, Charlie is going with his friends to see Mary
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth's live production of Rocky Horror Picture Show. They're going
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: to parties together. Charlie is helping Sam study for the SATs, so.
• 30:00
  Speaker 6: Many like I someone who works with you, I'm just
• 30:03
  Speaker 6: I'm just like, how how did they get away with
• 30:06
  Speaker 6: performing Rocky like this each time?
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Especially high schoolers? Like this seems like a very involved
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: production that would take a lot of time and rehearsals,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: and there's costumes and.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: There doesn't seem like there was an adult involved in
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: the entire not to say that kids could not coordinate
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: this on their own. Yeah, I was sort of I
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: just sort of like wrote down like was this what
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: the early nineties was? Like?
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: I don't think, I mean, the budget for it seems
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: pretty hot, Like I don't know, I'm like, yeah, where
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: are the adults? Like?
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Also, was I I'm pretty sure that Emma Watson's hair
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: length changes for just those scenes. Way, okay, yeah, because
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: I okay, now I can rest.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: She has significantly longer. Yeah.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: In the play, she's Susan Sarandon, which sure, yes.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: So they're all hanging out, they're exchanging Christmas gifts. Charlie
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: wants to be a writer when he grows up, so
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Patrick gives him a suit because back in the day,
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: great writers always wore great suits, and Sam gives him
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: a typewriter. And it's around this point in the movie
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: when I realized that it has basically the same premise
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: as Almost Famous, because both movies are about like a
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: nerdy teen boy who wants to be a writer and
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: who loves music, and he falls in love with an
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: older girl who has a quote unquote bad reputation and
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: who dates shitty older guys. And then the teen boy
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: starts piling around with these like cooler people who introduce
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: him to sex, drugs, and rock and roll, And I'm like, wow,
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: that is both of these movies.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: This is kind of like a more the Pittsburgh version
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: of that exactly, but yeah, there is, I mean, and
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about this too, but like both of those
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: the young men that are the leads of those movies. Yeah,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: it's like made to seem like, oh, it's they're so
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: accepting that they would be interested in like a girl
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: who quote unquote gets around or all the you know,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: kind of bizarre phrasing you here, which, well, okay, we'll
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: get back to it.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: Right, right, right, And then Sam takes Charlie aside and
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: asks if he has ever kissed a girl, and he's like,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: he no, So she kisses him and he's like, oh.
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna interject very quickly. Yeah, the book is is
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: so much more endearing.
• 32:44
  Speaker 6: The book is a lot more endearing because like Sam
• 32:46
  Speaker 6: talks about like and they briefly mentioned it in this
• 32:49
  Speaker 6: scene of the movie too, but but yeah, she talks
• 32:51
  Speaker 6: about how her how her first kiss was with someone
• 32:55
  Speaker 6: that her father knew that was significantly older, so there
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: was abuse going on in the house and she's crying
• 33:02
  Speaker 6: and Charlie is comforting her, and then and she's like,
• 33:05
  Speaker 6: I want your first kiss to be with someone who
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: actually loves you, because I didn't get that right. And
• 33:09
  Speaker 6: it's so much more endearing, and like it's so it
• 33:11
  Speaker 6: does disappoint me that, like this scene in the movie
• 33:14
  Speaker 6: is more so colored with like flirty, chill pixie dream
• 33:18
  Speaker 6: girl things.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: And it's right, Yeah, the way you're describing it sounds
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: really this does make you want to read the book.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: It sounds like a very sweet book. I mean, yeah,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: that seems like it's certainly not like I stand out
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: like bad version of a scene like that, but it
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: sounds like it was written a little differently. That's interesting.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, they have a kiss, and then it's
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: Charlie's birthday, which is the same day as Christmas Eve,
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: his brother Chris comes home from Penn State for the holidays, plus.
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: The same day that Aunt Helen dies, yes many years.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if I've mentioned Aunt Helen yet,
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: but we have been getting a few flashbacks throughout the
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: movie of young Charlie when he's probably like six or
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: seven or some age around there, and his aunt Helen
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: played by Melanie Lynsky, who Charlie mentions was his favorite
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: person in the world and who we learn died in
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: a car accident on his birthday while she was like
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: going to get his birthday gift. And she also refers
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: to something being their little secret, but we don't know
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: what she's talking about yet. Then Charlie tells his brother
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: that he plans to ask Sam out on New Year's Eve,
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: but she's kissing that guy, Craig, so he does acid instead.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: He I think, ends up passing out outside like in
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: the snow He's hospital. There are more allusions to mental
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: health episodes he has had where he was seeing things.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: Some other stuff happens, like Charlie plays Rocky in Mary
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth's production of Rocky Horror, which she asks him to
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: the Stadie Hawkins Dance. Then she takes him home and
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: kisses him and she's like, wow, I can't believe you're
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: my boyfriend. And he's like what, And we are like
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: why is a senior dating a freshman boy?
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I'm today. I will not be litigating
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: high school at age gaps in dating. I simply refuse
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: to enter that discourse. However, However, I love Mary Elizabeth.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: There's like elements of Mary Elizabeth, especially as her story
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: goes on, where it's like, oh, it's so visceral and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: like painful to to watch how that relationship goes. And yes, yeah, god,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: there were elements of like Mary Elizabeth. I was like, oh,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: that was what I was like when I was a
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: teenage girlfriend. And it's so devastating when you're like, wait,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: you don't want to talk every single second of every
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: single day.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: Will Yeah, she's she's a lot.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a lot.
• 36:25
  Speaker 6: In the in the commentary, May Woman who plays her,
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: she she advocated for Mary Elizabeth's hair to look the
• 36:31
  Speaker 6: way that it does. Originally, Steven Schabaski was like nah,
• 36:34
  Speaker 6: and then and then, and then he was like, oh no,
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: actually this does work.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, nice, Oh that's the best.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: So Charlie kind of gets trapped into this relationship that
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: he didn't even know he was in at first. Yeah,
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: and he doesn't know how to tell her that he
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: does not want to go out with her. It's almost
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: like he sees her and he's like her, that's an
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: arrested development reference. And then he effectively breaks up with
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: her during a game of Truth or Dare when Patrick
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: dares Charlie to kiss the prettiest girl in the room.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: So this scene, it's so stressful.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: So Charlie kisses Sam instead of Mary Elizabeth, who is
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: sitting right there, and everyone is really pissed at Charlie
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: and none of his friends want to see him for
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: a while.
• 37:28
  Speaker 6: In this movie, Patrick says a line to Charlie going like,
• 37:32
  Speaker 6: you know, there's this thing between Mary Elizabeth and Sam.
• 37:35
  Speaker 6: You know, they just have this thing with guys. That
• 37:38
  Speaker 6: shit was not in the book. Oh really, that was
• 37:42
  Speaker 6: not there. So I'm frustrated by this scene for that reason.
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: Weird, like, fuck Charlie, Fuck Patrick. It's awful.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: So the movie makes Sam and Mary Elizabeth kind of
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: like frenemies almost in a way that the book didn't.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sucks, I was like because I didn't. Again, that
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: was like something that was just said offhand once and
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: then that's the only insight that you get into their friendship.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, that was like one of the I know that,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: like Charlie is the central character of this movie, but
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: the fact that you don't get to see women really interact,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Like you see women near each other often, but you
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: don't see them talking to each other often, which is
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: technically a huge focus of our show. But it was
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: but I hated that that. I hate that that's kind
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: of the only insight you get into Sam and Mary
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth's friendship because we're like they've known each other their
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: whole lives and this is like, the the only fact
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: you get about this friendship is that they've like clashed
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: over guys, which is like the most lazy, trite way
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: to Yeah, right, that's that's so weird that that was added,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: like especially because it's like Stephen Shrubowsky added it, right,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: and for what reason? Yeah?
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it wasn't even in his original source Mato and
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: he's like if.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: They made it worse?
• 39:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And then in that commentary, May Whitman was like, oh,
• 39:06
  Speaker 6: this was helpful for my character, and I'm.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: Like, no, no, this is no may.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Man. God, I love I feel like Waymitman. May Whitman
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: doesn't get the credit she deserves for having like range,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: She's got, she's got real range.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: She's a past yes indeed. Okay. So meanwhile Patrick's secret boyfriend, Brad,
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Brad's dad catches them twogether so they cannot see each
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: other anymore, and a physical fight breaks out between Patrick
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: and Brad at school and the like jock guys start
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: punching Patrick, but Charlie steps in. He seems to kind
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: of black out, and and when he comes to, he
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: has beaten the guys who were ganging up on Patrick,
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: effectively saving Patrick. Because of this because of like Charlie's
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: standing up for Patrick, his friends forgive him and let
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: Charlie back into the friend group. One night, Patrick confides
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: in Charlie about what happened between him and Brad, and
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: then Patrick's surprise kisses Charlie. He then apologizes, and Patrick
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: just seems very lonely and upset. I'm not excusing him
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: surprise kissing someone, but that's kind of the context of
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: that scene. But then things start to look up for
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: everyone because Mary Elizabeth has a new boyfriend she got
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: into Harvard. Sam is going to Penn State, Patrick is
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: going to the University of Washington. Everyone is excited and
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: they're doing great, except for Charlie, whose mental health seems
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: to be getting worse, especially knowing that all of his
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: friends are about to leave. Then it's the last day
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: of school. Sam is getting ready to head to Penn
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: State for the summer semester, which, by the way, is
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: something that Penn State made me do too. They're like, oh,
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: if you want to start at main campus, Oh, that's
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: a thing. Yeah, I think they I honestly think it's
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: actually a money making scheme, but they're just like, we
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: don't think you're ready for main campus yet, So you
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: can either come in the summer or you can go
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: to a branch campus for two years and then transfer
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: to main campus.
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: And they made it seem like my grades weren't good
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: enough or something or I don't even know what, but
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: they're like, we don't think you're going to succeed here
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: unless you give us extra money. So I went to
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: I had to start early and go in the summer,
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: and I was so unhappy about it, But then when
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: I was there, I was like, oh, wait, I hate
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: my hometown and this is much better.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which I I do like that. They basically have
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Sam have that reaction Whereason it's like, yeah, the second
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I left her, my life got way better, but it's
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: nice to see you. It's like, yeah, that's the best
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: case scenario.
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: Okay. So Sam is getting ready to head to Penn
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: State and she's like, Charlie, why didn't you ever ask
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: me out? And he's like, I'm shy, and then he
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: kisses her and then they have sex. I think it's implied.
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: In the book.
• 42:34
  Speaker 7: They start doing so, and then as she's touching him,
• 42:39
  Speaker 7: he's like stop and starts crying and he's like I'm
• 42:43
  Speaker 7: not I'm not ready and we know why right.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: In the movie, they kiss and then that does happen
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: where she like puts her hand on his knee or
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: something and he's like he kind of withdraws and she's like,
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: what's the matter and he's like nothing, and then they
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: start kissing again, and then they kind of like collapse
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: onto the bed, and then the camera pans up the
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: way the camera pans up when people start having sex
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: in a movie. So I'm like, I think it's implied
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: that they have sex, but it's not totally clear either way.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: They say goodbye the next day and she leaves, which
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: kind of triggers a flood of memories for Charlie, things
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: from his recent past, as well as more flashbacks of
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: Aunt Helen which indicate that she was sexually abusing him
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: as a child. He starts crying and having a breakdown.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: He is blaming himself for his aunt dying because again
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: she was killed on her way to go get his gift.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: But he's like, what if I wanted her to die
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: because of the abuse, And then we cut to him
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: in the hospital where, with the help of doctor Joan Cusack,
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: he starts.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: To put a fun twist or we're okay. Great.
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: So he starts to acknowledge what happened and he starts
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: to heal. He goes back home with his family. Sam
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: comes home from Penn State to visit after a few months,
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: and she's like, I finally found the Tunnel song. It's
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: by someone I don't know if you've heard of him,
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: David Bowie.
• 44:24
  Speaker 6: Anyway, the Tunnel Song is different than the book. I
• 44:28
  Speaker 6: forget which one, but I know it's definitely.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: Not a tape something that they couldn't get the rights to.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I read it was Landslide by fleetwood Man, which I
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: think would actually be kind. I don't know. I'm sure
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: it would be like beautiful, but I think it also
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: be I don't know. I think they went with a
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: good song for her for it. Landlid's too slow for
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: a Ton's a bit of a downer.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: That's true.
• 44:52
  Speaker 6: Also in the book, they're not like standing up against
• 44:54
  Speaker 6: the car either, so really gotta make it worthy. I guess, yeah,
• 45:00
  Speaker 6: have stunt coordinators with them standing against the car.
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: It seems so dangerous, Like you said, Jamie, a head
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: could pop off at any moment.
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Throughout the commentary they were all like, don't try
• 45:11
  Speaker 5: this at home. There was a harness.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: I want to listen to the commentary now it sounds
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: very wholesome.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: So anyway, they go through the tunnel again and now
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: it's Charlie's turn to stand up as David Bowie is playing.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: And that is the end of the movie. So let's
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss,
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: and we're.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Back, baby. I just wanted to before we get into
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: the discussion, just acknowledge that this is the movie that
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: made as Ra Miller a star. And I don't know,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: it's like often difficult to like know how to like
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: address stuff like this on our show and then just
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: go into the conversation. But like, we are very well
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: aware of the allegations and just proven abuses that Ezra
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Miller that have surfaced about Azra Miller. We're going to
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: include a link in the description if you're not aware,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: and do you want to sort of be brought up
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: to speed. I don't think that this is like really
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: the place to go into things in detail, but yeah,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: I think it's worth acknowledging that, like Azra Miller, it
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: seems like a pretty spectacularly abusive person and has benefited
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: from so much privilege that they are still as we
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: were recording, like the Flash came out this weekend and
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: they're still, you know, headlining these huge banner movies.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: And at the time of this recording, the director of
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: the Flash is like, yeah, I know all about the
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: stuff that Asra did, but I have no an attention
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: of recasting them, no like comment. They are going to
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: stay in the Flash series. So it's the classic Hollywood
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: story of abusers allowing to continue having a career because
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: people don't want to hold people accountable.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Well, and particularly white actors being shielded right from any consequence.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: So I just wanted to acknowledge that at the top. Yes,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: and is.
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: There a link?
• 47:32
  Speaker 6: Is there going to be a link available for Nicholas
• 47:33
  Speaker 6: Brown too? Because I had no idea until y'all mentioned it.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, we will definitely include a link. And what
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: I noticed is that it hasn't been covered by the
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: bigger media outlets, which I wonder why that is. But yeah,
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: it feels like it's been kind of swept under the rug.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: It was very Yeah, it did get It felt very
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: like media timing, like got swept under the rug because
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: Succession was currently airing, and now that succession is over,
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: it's like, okay, can we discuss this now, like for
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: fuck's sake? Anyways, Well, we'll include both of those links.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: And there's yeah, elements of this movie that certainly age
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: like milk, those casting choices being two of them. Anyways,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: as far as the movie goes, MAYA, where would you
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: like to start the discussion? Does anything jump out at you?
• 48:28
  Speaker 6: The scene where Charlie's on phone with his sister and
• 48:32
  Speaker 6: she's like, get the police to my house, Like.
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: Oh my god, oh my god, it's so weird.
• 48:40
  Speaker 6: How Like when I was younger watching this movie, I
• 48:42
  Speaker 6: didn't I didn't think anything of it. And then now
• 48:44
  Speaker 6: I watched this movie and im and I'm just like, oh,
• 48:47
  Speaker 6: this movie is so white. If this featured a black family,
• 48:51
  Speaker 6: this would not have gone well. And it's so weird.
• 48:54
  Speaker 6: Like the American Association of Suicide Prevention did a study
• 48:58
  Speaker 6: on entertain media and suicidality, and the majority of folks
• 49:03
  Speaker 6: that are typically showcased are white. And typically when black
• 49:06
  Speaker 6: people are are showcased, they're not showcased having like a
• 49:10
  Speaker 6: healing art or anything like that. Whereas Charlie here gets
• 49:14
  Speaker 6: one and of course, like all these positive interactions with
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: law enforcement.
• 49:17
  Speaker 5: And in the book.
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: Too, like he Charlie talks extensively about the nice cop
• 49:22
  Speaker 6: who comforted his mom having to report the death of
• 49:26
  Speaker 6: his aunt or whatever, and like god in the in
• 49:30
  Speaker 6: the commentary, they're all like, oh, look who made a
• 49:32
  Speaker 6: cameo appearance Emma Watson's bodyguard.
• 49:35
  Speaker 5: Ooh, former NYPD ooh, and it's at Yeah, it's a gross.
• 49:41
  Speaker 6: So every aspect of like law enforcement that's infiltrated in
• 49:45
  Speaker 6: the book in the film do.
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: Not sit right with me.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of course. Yeah, that's
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I was curious of like how that was covered in
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: the book as well. I mean I guess like the
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: further back you go probably the more lightened it goes. Yeah,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: because that that I feel like that is like a
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: showing of like the writer's hand as coming from privilege,
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: especially being white and also being uh what we see
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: in a lot of teen movies where this movie isn't
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: an exception where it's like they're from like a wealthy suburb, right,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean they don't have problems, but like another wealthy suburb,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: big mansion party, teenager kind of movie.
• 50:24
  Speaker 6: Yes, And then Charlie says like, oh, like, oh, you
• 50:27
  Speaker 6: gotta get me out of here. I can't afford being
• 50:30
  Speaker 6: hospitalized in joke. He's like, oh, don't worry about that.
• 50:32
  Speaker 6: I'm like, the right, yes, I'm gonna work about this.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: What it's like, Yeah, And I.
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: Remember thinking that when I was younger too.
• 50:42
  Speaker 6: I remember thinking that as a teenager, that being my
• 50:44
  Speaker 6: main critique as a teenager, I like the fuck, yes.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's something that I wonder how Stephen. I read
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: a few retrospective interviews, but I didn't see that specific
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: point come up, and I was kind of hoping that
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: it would because I do think that, like, yeah, I mean,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: the cops are bad at everything, perpetuate harm at every level,
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: but like specific like are uniquely bad at dealing with
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: mental health crises. It's like that's well known and I
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know even though it's framed in
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: the movie. You're like, how could this possibly be helpful?
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: Like they're kicking in the door and scaring him, but right, yeah,
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: the way that, I don't know, I'm curious how what
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: you think is because I feel like this movie has
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: its heart in the right place in like wanting to
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: address suicidality and wanting to start a discussion about these
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: issues in a genuine way. And then yeah, there's like
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: elements that it's just like, clearly this perspective is really
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: really privileged or or just like not really thought through.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this book was so The book that this movie
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: is based on is controversial in the sense that it's
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: been banned a lot because of its material. You know,
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: it addresses things like suicidal ideation and queerness and drug
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: use among teens and different things that you know, conservative
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: people and parents are like, I don't want my kids
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: reading about this. That's why I appreciate that the book
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: and the movie is willing to tackle those things. Because
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: a lot of coming of age movies or like teen
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: movies are I don't know, they're either kind of like
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: milk toast or they aren't necessarily getting into like what
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: it's really like to be a teenager.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: But this is a Secret Life of the American teenager
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: because Shalen's and not in this movie. She's in most
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: of the other ones. Though it's kind of shocking that
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Shalene Woodley isn't in this movie, I know, right, it's
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: such as Shaleene Woodley coded movie.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: Right, But my point is like the perspective is so
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: so white, and everything is told through this extremely white,
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: privileged lens that it isn't a like authentic teen experience
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: for so many people. So it's hard to stomach in
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: that way because even though again I appreciate its willingness
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: to tackle some of the darker aspects of of life,
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: it is done so through such a privileged lens.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely like it's and we've talked about this
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: on the show before too, where it's like no one
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: movie can address every single perspective, but this movie had
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: space to address far more than it chose to.
• 53:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: Where Yeah, I mean it's like you're in like Pittsburgh
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: is a far more diverse city than this movie like
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: you to believe there was certainly room for like actually
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: building out some of the women that appear in this
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: story more. There is room for class diversity within this
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: movie that you don't really see except kind of in passing.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's like it's I feel like this this
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: feels very like stepping Stone movie E where it's like okay.
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah for sure, yeah.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: Like we'll we'll address these serious issues that should be
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: addressed in teen media, but everything else will be surround
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: like encased in whiteness and privilege.
• 54:33
  Speaker 6: It's like Stephen Tabaski has like had said, like, oh,
• 54:36
  Speaker 6: it's such a huge thing in this movie made because
• 54:38
  Speaker 6: like movies like this don't get don't get made, and
• 54:41
  Speaker 6: like on when I don't want to take away the
• 54:44
  Speaker 6: fact that, yes.
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: Movies are hard to get made.
• 54:46
  Speaker 6: And at the time this movie was made, the actors
• 54:48
  Speaker 6: weren't paid as as well as they could have been
• 54:51
  Speaker 6: and whatnot, because everyone cared about the movie. And at
• 54:54
  Speaker 6: the same time, it's like you you still got into theaters,
• 54:57
  Speaker 6: you still have all of these white faces, you still
• 55:01
  Speaker 6: received enough critical acclaim to be talked about years later,
• 55:04
  Speaker 6: there are very much movies like this still being made.
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: So it's it's just do better, truly.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like fucking fucking dear Evan Handsome, I was about
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: to say, and then the fact that he clearly did
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: not learn very much because he went on to directly
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: what black person what like and in many ways, I
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: mean I have I honestly like I did not get
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: all the way through Dear Evan hants in the movie.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: I was like, I'm out of here. I can't do it.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: I didn't even start it.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: But but it is like, in many ways, like an
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: even clumsier attempt to address many of the themes in
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: this movie. So you're like, well, I guess we know
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: that Steven Schabowski didn't grow as a person between twenty
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: twelve and twenty twenty two. Good to know, very very
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: bizarre es. Yeah there, maybe someday we'll punish ourselves and
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: cover dear Evan Hanson. It could be fun, okay, or not?
• 56:02
  Speaker 5: Please invite me back.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like punishment to be like, all right,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: let me same themes, same amount of oppressive, rich white teenagers,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: but now they sing talking about it with y'all.
• 56:15
  Speaker 5: I would have a really good time.
• 56:16
  Speaker 6: And also I have a book coming out in October,
• 56:19
  Speaker 6: so it's like, listen.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Let's do it.
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if you want to be our resident Stephen Chubowski
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: guest of by all.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: Means the best.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: The next thing I would like to talk about is
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: the several references to Sam's quote unquote bad reputation slash
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: shameful history. Where we first learned about it from voice over,
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: where Charlie said that he had asked his sister about
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: Sam saying that when she was a freshman, the upperclassman
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: would get her drunk at parties dot dot dot. I
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: guess she had a reputation, the implication there being that
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: she would get drunk and then have sex with these
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: people at parties. And then Charlie goes on to say,
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: but I don't care. I'd hate for her to judge
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: me based on what I used to be like and then.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Not like other boys.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: Fast forward a little bit in that scene where they're
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: talking about having their first kiss. This is when Sam
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: reveals that her first kiss was when she was eleven,
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: and her first kiss was with her dad's boss, so
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: an adult man she's eleven. We're like, oh my god,
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: that is so awful. Yeah, and then she pushes past it,
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: and then she starts talking about how she's like, I
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: used to sleep with guys who treated me like shit
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: and get wasted all the time, but now I feel
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: like I have a chance. So she's like talking about
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: like turning her life around. And so the way that
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: she talks about her experience and the way that her
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: friends seemed to interpret her experience, They're all like, Wow,
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: she used to be on a really bad path and
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: it was all her fault. But look at her turning around,
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: and it's unclear if she was consenting or able to
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: consent to the sex that she was having with these upperclassmen.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: There's like not enough information, right.
• 58:26
  Speaker 6: And in the in the commentary, Steven Teabaski is all like, oh,
• 58:30
  Speaker 6: it was very important for me to emphasize this redemptive
• 58:33
  Speaker 6: arc for Sam.
• 58:34
  Speaker 5: And I'm like, this feels gross redemption from what exactly.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: That's because Okay, that was a question that I had
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: about the because I was like, is because on one hand,
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, it is not inconceivable to me that
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: that's how teenagers in the early nineties might talk about that,
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: for sure, But if you're gonna do that, then the
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: movie has to like provide some sort of commentary that
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: that was an unfair way for her to be treated
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: and not just like keep but it's clear that Okay, So,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: like that's just how Steven Chabaski feels, is that, like you,
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: a teenage girl would need redemption.
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: From potentially being having sex regularly assaulted, right, And.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, And also I think it conflates just
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: the way that it's discussed in the movies so generally
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: conflates situations that we're consenting versus not where for me
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: at least, it was really hard to track what they
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: were talking about a lot of the time because she
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: described being assaulted, and then it seems like maybe also
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: she's having like she's it's just like unclear what's going on.
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: Right, Well, the movie frames that that when she's talking
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: about it, she's speaking as though it was consensual. She's like,
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: I used to get drunk and sleep with these guys
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: because I was making bad decisions TIHI, And now she
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: feels all this shame attached to it, which so the
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: movie's framing from her point of view, the sex she
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: had was consensual, which may or may not be true,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: like there's a spectrum of drunkenness where at least for me, yeah,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: you can still consent, and it is not clear where
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: we just.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: Don't have enough information.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: We just don't have enough information. But even if she
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: was consenting, there's still a power in balance where it's
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: she was a freshman, so she's like fourteen, and we're
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: talking about upperclassmen, so may you know probably like sixteen, seventeen,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: maybe eighteen year old like junior seniors were led to believe,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: so there's still a significant power and balance here. The
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: point is the movie makes it seem like she was
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: just making careless decisions and it's all her fault, and
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: now she's turning her life around and her friends are like, oh, wow,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: that was a pretty shameful time of your past, but
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: we're not gonna judge you for it. You know, you're
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: you're turning yourself around now, so it's okay, right, That's
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: how the movie feels. That's clearly how Stephen Schabowski, yeah, feels.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 6: Apparently said, and Jamie, I want to honor what you
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 6: said about like not wanting to get too much into
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 6: like high school age gap discourse.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 5: I do want to honor that.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 6: And it's just very telling about what what high schoolers
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 6: tend to go through whenever you're seeking friendships, and oftentimes
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 6: with those age gaps, it's all like, oh, you seem
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 6: so mature for your age, and it's like and how
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 6: that creates a sense of trauma. And also it's like,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 6: if I seem mature for my age, that also comes
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 6: from trauma, and you're just putting on more trauma by
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 6: being my friend or pretending to be my friend and like, yeah.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: Right, and then so Jamie, to your point about the
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: movie's conflation with like Sam, it's presented as though what
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: she was doing was consensual, it was her choice.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: And right, we're actually told that much of it is
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: not consensual and is actively abuse and an assault.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: Is Yeah, because a lot of those moments are accompanied
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: by the flashbacks with young Charlie and Aunt Helen, and
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: then we learn that she was sexually abusing him.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a swing and a miss on a huge issue.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And with Charlie having this knowledge earlier in the movie,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 6: why would you not only hurt Mary Elizabeth, why would
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 6: you hurt Sam like that?
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: Right, it's so like it's there are ways that like
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: characters can make mistakes, but the movie has to like
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: it's the responsibility of the writer in the movie to
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: telegraph that to their very young audience, because it just
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: feels like an endorsement, like a view of consent in
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: a way that's really confusing and like does not jive
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: with a lot of the events and themes of the movie.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: And just like the theme of how to treat young
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: people having sex at all.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think like Sam feeling the way she feels
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: like all of this shame is completely understandable because people,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: especially in this time frame, and even when the movie
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: came out in twenty twelve, we were still being conditioned
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: to think that, like, if we were the victim of assault,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: it was our fault, and you know, all of this
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: victim blaming and slut shaming that's so pervasive because of
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: rape culture. It stands to reason that Sam would be
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: having these feelings of shame and that maybe even some
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: of her friends would be like, yeah, I agree.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: Reinforcing them.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because again, we are all products of our environment
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: and we are we've all been conditioned to think this way.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: But if there was at least one character who was,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: like maybe someone older or maybe you know, a parent
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: or someone who could say, like, I understand why you
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: feel this way, but you don't need to because like,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: this is not your fault, you are not to blame here,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: something that would make it clear that this attitude of
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: like victim blaming and slut shaming is not the right attitude.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: But that's again, like we said, just clearly what Stephen
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: Chebowski how he feels. So there's nothing in the movie
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: that challenges this, like very toxic mentality.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 6: Right, Like even when it comes to Patrick is supposed
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 6: to be like this cool step step brother to her
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 6: and like and even he makes comments in the movies
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 6: such as like I'll look at that toasty outfit. It's
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 6: not like it's original or anything, or like making comments
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 6: like like like oh my god, I.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: Told her, don't make yourself so small. It's like it's.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 6: Like when when gay men think it's okay that casual
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 6: sexism is totally fine, casual sexism is way too casual
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 6: for me, for Patrick, and it's like it's gross.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, yes, yes, very much, I think, like an
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: active trope and also just like bad queer representation on
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: top of that. Yeah, it reminds me so much. It's
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: it's this is such a weird movie to kind of
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: pick apart because I think that like Steven Schabowski in
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: certain cases as a writer, dodges what you kind of
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: come to expect of. Like I think he wrote this
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: book when he was like late twenties, early thirties, but
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: essentially like I.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 3: Think he wrote it when he was in college.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, well that doesn't really He's writing this script as
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: a man in his forties and still has the same
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: opinions of young women's sexuality and the shame associated with it,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: and the complete conflation of abuse and consensual sex and
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: not making really an effort to say, yeah, it's just
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: it's it's unfair to Sam's character and then yeah, it's
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: like it, especially because he says himself like that, Oh,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: isn't it like you know, making it seem like, oh,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: I'm so creatively generous to have the people in her
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: life forgive her for this, and you're like, well, you
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: haven't even given us enough information to know what you're
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: allegedly forgiving her. Like but no matter what that answer is,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: she doesn't need forgiveness, like whether it's consensual or especially
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: if it's abuse, Like what are you talking about? Is
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: confusing exactly?
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like no redemption arc needed, Like it's.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: Talking about her like she's kylo Ren or some shit
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: Like you're just like what are you talking about?
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like she did not do anything wrong. All she
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: wanted to do was get better sat scurse, Right, Yeah,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: I do like say I think that like that element
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: of Sam is just like she's so disserviced by it,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: because I do I do like her character.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: What else would we like to talk about.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, so many places we could go. I
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: guess this was I didn't know very much about this movie.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. And I think in a teen
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: movie in twenty twelve, having out gay characters that are
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: very beloved and also like main characters was pretty unique
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: at the time, if I'm remembering twenty twelve correctly, And
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: I'm curious of how everyone feels it was handled. It's
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: tricky because it's like you have to put on your
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: twenty twelve goggles and also your early nineties goggles, because
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: there is like inherent I don't know. It felt kind
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: of like a two hander, where on one hand, parts
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: of like Patrick's experience is defined by trauma and rejection
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: of like he is in love with Brad, but they
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: have to keep it secret, partially for stigma and shame,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: but also for Brad's physical safety from his very religious parents.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: And that's a story that we've certainly seen over the
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: years and is unfortunately like reflected in so much of
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: history and so but a deeply like traumatic queer love story.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: But I also feel like Stephen Schabowski did give Patrick
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: a lot of room to just like be a person
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: too and like experienced joy and like that's not the
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: only thing that we know about Patrick. It's a very
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: like and I think that is like also true for
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: Charlie and how his experience being sexually abused as a child.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: You can see that it clearly influences his life and
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: makes it much more difficult, but it doesn't define his life.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: And I feel like that is something that you don't
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: really I'm not saying it's perfectly done, but I appreciated
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: the attempts because I feel like so often that is like, well,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: this is the trauma that defines my entire life and
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: my story outside of this, like who cares?
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: And well, these are male characters, so there does.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 8: Not Sam trauma get that same Like yeah, exactly, Yeah,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 8: because Sam is defined by her like being like they
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 8: truly do make it sound like and this is like callous,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 8: but they make it sound like she's like cured of
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 8: being a slut and that's why she gets to go
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 8: to college.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, shut the fuck up, Like what.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 6: Yeah, A lot of like a lot of Stevens Chabaski's
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 6: dialogue during the commentary was like like.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 5: For Patrick, he was like, my number one rule for
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 5: Patrick is like don't make him a victim, and then
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 5: like we're talking about Sam, it's like, oh, this redemptive
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 5: art was just so powerful for me, and it's like,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 5: what the fuck.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous, which which sucks because I generally liked the caretaken
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: so that Patrick was not framed as like a tragic
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: victim and does like this is a horrible eperience and
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: we see that his character moves on, and that's really important.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: But also it's like it's so clear who Steven Cheboski's
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: comfortable extending that too and who he's not.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 6: I also question, because the book was written in the nineties,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 6: like if if Stephen Schebaski had that terminology at the time,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 6: would he have articulated Charlie is as queer because like
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 6: in the book he talks about how like, oh, my
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 6: dad's excited that I'm dating Mary Elizabeth because he got
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 6: concerned that I kept kissing this boy.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 5: In the neighborhood.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 6: Oh wow, right, And the part where Patrick initially kisses
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 6: Charlie without his consent, then Charlie goes like, no, really,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 6: it's it's okay, and they and Patrick and Charlie spent
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 6: a lot of time kissing in the car.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 5: Night after night.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 6: But Sam does interrogate Charlie about this later because Sam's
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 6: concern was that I don't think you were being a
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 6: good friend to Patrick because you let him talk about
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 6: his sorrows and you sat there and said nothing, and
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 6: you let him kiss you and you did nothing, and
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 6: you're not establishing your your own boundaries as a friend.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 6: You can And then which goes back to the movie
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 6: where she's like, you can't just sit back and be
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 6: quiet and call that love.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 5: That's not how this works.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: Right, That's so interesting. It's like, I gotta read this
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: damn book because I like, because I did, I another
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: like twenty twelvey thing where I was like, oh, okay,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: this movie like it is inclusive of queer people, unlike
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: most teen movies were at this time. But also you're like, oh,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: this movie subscribes to there are two kinds of people.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: They're gay or they're straight. But it sounds like the
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: book may have been more inclusive than that, but the
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: movie didn't, or I feel like that. I don't know,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: at least movie Charlie to me, I thought was coded
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: like pretty straight.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: Right right right, whereas in the book maybe he's by
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: or somewhere else on the sexuality spectrum, figuring it out,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: or he's too much of a wallflower to tell someone
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: he doesn't want.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: To kill them. I don't know identifies as wallflower, use
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: flower like think I think.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 6: The term he does use it, and the book is straight.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 6: But still it's it's like it's like for me, it's like, is.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: He though, right, I mean, yeah, he's fourteen, he's yeah,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: probably still figuring it out.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: Right, right, And it's like not like fourteen year old
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: in the early nineties were using Oh in the book,
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: he's fifteen.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 5: He's fifteen.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 6: He had to stay back and great because he had
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 6: to be hospitalized. He's fifteen, he's fifteen.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: Okay, okay, why don't they just do that in the movie?
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean not that it makes that much of
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: a difference, but it's like everyone is twenty two, which
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: like you might as well say they're older than four,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: because I don't know. For some reason, like fourteen for
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: me is like okay, so like a child, and I'm
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: looking at Percy Jackson and it's like, but that's a man.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: Remember the Percy Jackson moved. For some reason, I did
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: see those even though I think it was technically too
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: old to see them, but I'm like, wow, I'm gonna
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: see Percy Jackson the Lightning.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: Pief Should we cover them?
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: They kind of sucked to be honest, but like, yeah,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I also don't really know what happened
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: to Logan Lerman. Every time I hear his name, I'm like,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: sounds like sure, that's a guy, Like I'll buy it.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 5: He's in a show now I'm forgetting the name of it.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 6: And I feel bad because I have a friend and
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 6: a fellow presbit who wrote a beautiful poem about him,
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 6: and oh yeah, and like the importance of like Jewish
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 6: representation and like television and stuff, and like.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's cool. I didn't know he's Jewish.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was just like it.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: There's so many people who are currently famous. There's just
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: like so many white millennial actors in this damn movie.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: There's like one one shot of Julia Garner and you're like, whoa,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: she's so famous now. But they're like they mention her
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: in passing where they're like, oh, is she the friend
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: Susan Susan, Yes, she was on that in Anna show.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: She played Anna Delvi. I don't know that it's an
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: iconically bad Shonda Rhyme show. Angelia Garner plays a scammer
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: and with this horrible accent, and she's always like why
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: are you poor? And you're like like, it's just okay, Well,
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: viewers have invented Okay, you're looking at me like I
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: have six heads. But listeners of this show right now
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: do know what I'm talking about.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: Okay, I believe you. I believe you.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: Shondaland will show up to the back to the cast,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: so help me.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: I know they will. So to go back to just
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: the movie's approach to queerness, The narrative between Like the
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: book and the movie was perhaps a little ahead of
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: its time in its willingness to have a queer character
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: and fully characterize them, and even though something traumatic happens
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: to them, they are not defined by their trauma, and
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: they are given an ending that is like positive and
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: like it seems as though Patrick has a bright future.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 6: He turned the camera to him when Charlie talks about
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 6: like and everyone's gonna become mothers and fathers, and it's like, yeah,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 6: queer people can be parents too, And it's.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: Like brave twenty twelve, what a time, right, But yeah,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: I guess it's like, like we said, like a stepping
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: stone kind of situation where there's certainly better queer representation now,
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: but you know, for the time, it was maybe a
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: bit ahead.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, above above average, and then I think we should
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: definitely talk about it feels kind of callous to call
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: it a reveal, but that is kind of how it's
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: presented in the story, especially if you're me and you
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: really don't know what happens in the movie The Perks
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: of Being a Wallflower, where you find out at the
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: very end of the movie. It's so weird because it
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: does feel like the movie's about to end, and then
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: you're like, wait, there's twenty minutes what's going on where
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: you find out the aunt who passed away when Charlie
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: is very young had been sexually abusing him up until
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: her death, and that I think it's implied and I'm
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: curious how it's like talked about in the commentary and
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: in the book, that this was a repressed memory that
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: through his experiences in this year, and also like in
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: that moment with Sam where she touches his leg, that
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: it resurfaces and he understandably goes to a very dark
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: place and has to be hospitalized. I yeah, I'm curious
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: of how that was discussed on the commentary.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah, in the commentary, the original writing of the script
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 6: was having their reveal take place like right after Sam
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 6: first touches Charlie's leg, and then some entertainment had said
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 6: like push that a little bit farther. We want we
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 6: don't want this moment for Charlie to be interrupted or
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 6: like something like that.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, that's so. And it's like I don't really
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: know how to feel about it, Like there is an
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: element of that like creative choice of like making it
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: a reveal to be like, hmmm, why is this a twist?
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: And at the end of the movie it's.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 5: Similarly similarly comes up in the book Too Real.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: It's like I don't know. I guess it's like if
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: I'm I genuinely don't know how I feel about it,
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: because in one way, it's like you see Charlie as
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: you know, I feel like it's so I don't know,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: Like even especially having like gone through the whole process
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: of making Walita podcast and writing and researching that topic
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: so intensely.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 6: Another great podcast of yours two. Oh my god, so good,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 6: thank you.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the plug section of the fun and
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: being very lucky to have not experienced that myself. Like,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I think it can be seen as
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: a good thing that we get to know Charlie's so
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: thoroughly outside of that context, because survivors of that kind
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: of abuse. Again, it's just like, oh, this is the
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: defining event of my life, or that's how it's very
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: often framed. But then it's just like, it does feel
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: so bizarre to have it be like the twist. But
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what is the How
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: did everyone feel about that? I just I it was
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: it was a choice. It was a choice that was made,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: and I don't know. It just made me think, I
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: don't know how to feel about it.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: I'm similarly uncertain, And I think it could be helpful
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: for boys, teenage boys, young men, or any kind of
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: mask presenting person who has experienced this type of abuse,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: because so often when we think about sexual abuse, it's
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: in reference to women in fems, and it rarely gets
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: explored in media unless you're talking about like spotlight or something.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: And it's also very rare in media that an adult
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: woman is portrayed as the perpetrator.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: Right, because it does happen.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: I've got some not I sounded way too chipper. I
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: was like, I have some stats. They're fucking horrible, but
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: I do have them. This is I found. A piece
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: that appears in the Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assaults is
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: written in twenty fourteen by Megan McCluskey that talks about
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: the portrayal of csa survivor in Perks of Being a Wallflower.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: I believe she is talking about the book here, but
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to sort of share this writer feels
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: like it was a pretty solid portrayal of a young
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: person processing that experience. So I have two chunks quote.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: Charlie concludes in his final letters in Perks that he
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: was sexually abused in early childhood by his aunt, Helen,
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: who is now deceased. Jabowski's decision to feature a male
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: victim of sexual violence along with a female perpetrator erodes
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: the persistent female victim slash male offender paradigm in actuality.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: It is likely that more than sixteen percent of men
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: have survived sexual abuse by the age of eighteen, and
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: while the majority of these young victims were assaulted by
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: adult men. The existence of sexually abusive adult women is
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: receiving increased attention. The fact that Charlie's abuse was committed
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: by a trusted and beloved family member is also consistent
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: with reality. More than ninety percent of juvenile sexual abuse
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: victims know their perpetrators. Charlie's fondness for Aunt Helen and
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: his prolonged grief over her accidental death is a poignant
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: representation of the convoluted amo of many survivors of sexual
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: assault experience toward those who abuse them. She goes on
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: to discuss and I won't get too into it because
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: it's a longer passage, but essentially says that she feels
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: that Chaboski does a pretty solid job of portraying how
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: that often bears out in a survivor's young life, and
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: how that very likely has just like how PTSD is
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: processed in teenagers, and how that very likely connects to
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: the reason Charlie is so shy and connected to panic attacks,
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: and how the death of his close friend could have
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: exacerbated that. And I don't know, it was really interesting
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: to read. I will we can link it in the
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: episode as well, But that was something that I didn't see.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: I'm curious how. I mean, I can't speak to this experience,
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: but it seems like it was generally well regarded and
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: like how Charlie's character is treated and portrayed.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, it could be helpful for someone watching
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 3: this who has experienced that and you know, allowed them
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: to feel especially because this story is told from the
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: point of view of the survivor of abuse, where when
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: it is brought up in media a lot of times,
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 3: it's not their story. It's not the survivor's story. It's
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: another character who were not getting, you know, an inside
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: look into their life and their feelings and their experiences.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it could easily be helpful. I
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: think it could also easily be triggering for people. You know,
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: it's but as far as how it's.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: Handled, definitely a movie you should go and with your
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: eyes open.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, But as far as how it's handled, nothing really
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: struck me as something to really be concerned about from
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: a representation point of view.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: But I mean, I think that that does circle back
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: to why does Sam not receive this same grace and treatment? Yeah,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: I mean it's I think that the way it's handled
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: in Charlie's character is I mean, just based on other
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: ways I've seen this story portrayed like pretty well done,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: especially for its time. And I also like that they
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: took the moment. I don't know if this happens in
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: the book, but they took the moment to show that
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: he was believed by his family and supported, because that's,
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: you know, like another element that can often be re
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: traumatizing if the people in your life do not believe you.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: So I like the for sure that the way this
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: story bears out, he is believed and then gets you know,
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: the the ending that's very like corny and cathartic and sweet,
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: and you know, maybe two seconds after the camera shots off,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: he gets decay apitated within the tunnel. We don't really know.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: Hopefully it's not what happens, and he goes on to
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: have a great high school experience. That's what I want
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: from him, but I can't. I like, literally, that's there's
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of difficult scenes in this movie, but watching
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: these kids go through that damn tunnel is so stressful
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 3: Actually, honestly, having seen Hereditary, I assume that that's going
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: to happen now for any character who just sticks their
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: head out of a window.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: So say what you will about aria Aster, but he
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: really does make you think about heads popping off all
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 3: He really sears an image into your brain that you
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: will never forget or recover from.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: What a legacy. But anyways, yeah, just to sort of
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: close that loop. As well done as I thought Charlie's
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: story was handled in that regard and how thoughtfully it was.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: Again with Sam it's just mentioned and she still needs this.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: It's just like I just want to sit inside of
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: Stephen Schabbassi's brain for a second to be like, why
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: why is it so different between these two characters.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, that extends to basically all the female
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: characters in the movie.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 4: Because his sister as well, his sister and Mary Elizabeth
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 4: and Mary Elizabeth's friend who is sometimes in the movie.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 6: Yeah, speaking of Charlie's sister, Yes, there is a deleted
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 6: scene that is from the book where Candace, Charlie's sister
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 6: is pregnant and she needs Charlie's help when it comes
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 6: to her getting an abortion, and it's a time where
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 6: she and Charlie are connecting more.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 5: And Stephen Schabaski has said that.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 6: He ended up deleting it because he said it was
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 6: too emotionally intense and wanted to prevent emotional fittigue.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 5: Okay, and I.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 6: Have feelings about that, especially when it comes to young
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 6: people who could have really benefited from seeing that. And
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 6: also part of me is like, are you doing that
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 6: so that you can prevent a rated R warning? Because
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 6: I don't think that's fair either.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 3: Interesting, right, because I mean abortion has always been such
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 3: an issue that Hollywood has really avoided wanting to put
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 3: on screen until like extremely recently.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that's so and does that sorry, does that
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: happen in the book?
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 5: It does?
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: It? Does? That's so? Ugh? Yeah, because I totally agree,
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: especially in twenty twelve. It's like there are so many
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: and when the audience of this movie is obviously I
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: guess teenagers, but I would actually guess closer to middle schoolers.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: I feel like stories about high schoolers are more often
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: consumed by people a little bit younger who are looking
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: forward to high school. And yeah, like, especially if it
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: was well handled, which I don't.
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: It's like I don't necessarily trust him as a director
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: to sure because maybe it would have just been a
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: scene where Nina do Breav would have been like, I'm
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: so ashamed, and then Charlie is like it's okay, I
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: forgive you, and you're like.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it wasn't like that, but like what what what
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 6: I do? What I do take issue with is like
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 6: Steven Tabaski's continuously calling Nina de Brev an unsung hero,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 6: and how like during the actors commentary in this scene
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 6: where she first gets hit by her boyfriend, some some
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 6: of uh as Rebeller is as cracking a joke as
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 6: a way to like suage the awkwardness of having to
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 6: watch her get heart by saying by saying like, oh,
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 6: Nina de brev could beat all our asses.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 5: Or whatever, and it's like, the fuck, show.
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: Me a clip that's aged worse of churs.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was I I that was another sort of
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: small element of this story that I wasn't prepared for.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: That Again, I just I feel like it is a
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: relevant topic of discussion and something that obviously happens all
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: the time and happens to young people all the time,
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: and the movie didn't really give it the space it
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: needed to be discussed, because you see, yeah, and I
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: don't think that that was like intentionally exploitative. But I
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: just I don't like that they showed the worst of
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: it and showed us physical abuse and then did not
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: give her character any really on screen time to process it. Right.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: I thought it was an interesting start to having that
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: conversation when she basically tries to justify the abuse to
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: her brother, Like I know that's the very common part
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: of an experience like that, Like I've I've been the
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: person saying that to a loved one before, and like
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: I think that that's an important But then that's sort
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: of that's it the end of it. You just find
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: out at the end, like, oh, she broke up with him,
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: which great, glad, But the fact that you only you
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: see abuse, you see her justifying the abuse, and then
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: any journey that she has takes place off screen.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 3: Which I'm realizing now that all of the female characters,
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 3: or at least like the teens, are defined by the
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 3: boys they like or who they're dating, because you've got
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: you know, the sister, she's in this abusive relationship, and
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: then there's a beat where it's like she decided to
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: break up with him and she went with her friends
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 3: to prom but then the next the final beat of
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 3: her like barely a story arc is she met a
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 3: guy at her summer job and she's dating him now
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 3: and he's nice.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, the same with Mary Elizabeth of like, well, she
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: started dating this other guy, so she's also I mean, honestly,
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: I was kind of glad that Mary Elizabeth started dating
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: someone else because I was like, I don't know whether
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: they're still together.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 5: She really advocated for.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: Wow, She's like I want a bad haircut, I want
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: my boyfriend in the movie It's good for you May Whitman, Sure,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: why not?
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: But like she didn't need to get with someone else, Like, no.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: She didn't. She got into Harvard, Like she's fine.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, she's gonna start a romance two seconds before
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 3: she leaves for school.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: That's silly, right, And and that like Sam, I think
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: we see this a lot, like Sam is probably not
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: with Charlie forever, but I feel like her ending up
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: with Charlie to some extent is this simp like a
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: sign that like she's left her old ways in the
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: past and this relationship is symbolic that like she's gonna
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: be okay. And you're like, she's a nice or she
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: could just be okay, like or she could just be okay, yeah,
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: but especially with his sister. Who's I keep I kept
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: just being like Nina do Brev Candice, Yes, God this
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: Maybe want to revisit Nina Dobrev's arcs in De Grassi,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: which is how the world met her. She dated Spinner,
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: she's a teen mom. She's kind of a legend on
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: the show De Grassy. Heads will know?
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 3: Is this why I don't know her because I've never
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 3: seen De Grassy.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: Sorry, you don't watch enough trashy TV, and that's something
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: that I've wanted to talk to you about. She's kind
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: of a legend of Degrassi. Is not trashy TV except
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: sometimes except when it is, except what it really is,
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: and that you're just like these Canadians need to relax.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: This is a part of my shameful history. But I'm
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 3: going to turn things around and it's all my fault.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: Charlie. I forgive you for your negligent ways. And then
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: she's on a show that's just straight up trash. But
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: I have seen a lot of and Princess Weeks has
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: made some amazing videos about the Vampire Diaries, which is
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: the CW capitalizing on Twilight's popularity, but it was on
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: for like fifty years, and they were like playing twenty
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: two year old, but they were like forty It was wild.
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: What was going on on that damn show? Anyways, that's
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: where Nina dolbro because all that to say, I really
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: like that actor, but as far as her arc goes,
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: I really get pissed off when a filmmaker is comfortable
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: showing a woman being abused and then does not make
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: the space for her to have a character arc, Like
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: if you don't have space for her in the movie,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: don't show her getting hit. It just feels exploitative a
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: little bit, even if it wasn't intended that way. I
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: feel like it. Yeah, it pisses me off. Yes, I agree.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 6: In the book, she's she's about to get an abortion,
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 6: and at the time when she tells the boyfriend that
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 6: she's pregnant, he's like, hot, not mine. And then she
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 6: proceeds to get the abortion, connects with Charlie. She tells
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 6: the boyfriend, tell them like, like, you know what it was,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 6: it was a false alarm.
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 5: Don't worry about it. And he's like, oh, okay, great,
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 5: and she's like, but I'm breaking up with you.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 6: And then like there's a description of her reading like
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 6: self esteem books but then stopping to read the self
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 6: esteem books because she starts dating a guy a year
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 6: younger than her. So I'm not saying the book is
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 6: perfect by means, but it.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 3: Seems to give her a little bit more characterization.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean it sounds like it definitely does more.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: And I know that like when you're adapting, like stuff
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: has to get cut down and stuff like that. But
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, if you didn't have the space for
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: her to be a bigger character, then don't show her
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: getting abused if like yeah.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: And it's just it's very telling who this writer director
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 3: wants to give space too, because the most characterized people
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 3: in this movie are the boys. Like the boys we
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 3: don't know an awful lot. I think the like Mary
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth likes Rocky Horror Picture Show.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: Which good for her, she's right to film that way, But.
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 3: Like, what else do we know about any of the
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: girls except for like their taste in music?
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: Also, like how is this Mary Elizabeth's production of Rocky Horror?
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: But she's still somehow cast in a minor role. I
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: was like, can we let like why can't may women
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: be the main person? Like the Hollywood is allergic to
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: letting her be the main person. Even she's like, this
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: is my production and I'm gonna play the maid.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 3: I'm like why, I don't know.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: Anyways, Yeah, I wanted to shout out Mary Elizabeth as
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I felt and always I was almost
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: a little bit embarrassed about. I was like, oh, I
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: felt kind of represented by her at times where it's
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: just like a young woman doing the most she doesn't
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: know how works, right, this is like this like just
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: desperately tried to be like this, maybe this maybe I'm
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: this person, or maybe I'm this person. She's like, I'm
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: vegan person. No, I'm a rocky horror person. No, I'm
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: book person. Like just like I get, like, I don't know.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: I was like she's a little frustrating at times and
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: up her own ass, but I just I feel like
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: it's you don't see characters like that a lot who
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: are like also loved by their friends and like that
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: you know things end up going well for her. And
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: also just like that moment of like oof, just like
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: he this movie does like humiliating moments pretty well in
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: a way that like kind of triggered my enterteen that
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: scene where oh where he I mean, there's a lot
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: going on in that scene where he's surprised, kisses Sam
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: and humiliates his girlfriend, who is a lot but certainly
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: did not deserve that, right. You know, I wouldn't talk
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: to him for two weeks either.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, is there anything else anyone wants to talk about?
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 5: Yes? The character Michael, the friend who dies by suicide.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 6: Yes, in the In the movie, he's only brought up
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 6: super briefly while Charlie is stoned. And Stephen Schabowski had said,
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 6: like in books, you can do multiple ghosts. In a movie,
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 6: you only get one ghost, and I want it, And
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 6: he said, I want that one ghost to be Aunt Helen.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 6: I don't want two ghosts. And then he had said,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 6: in the book, you open with like Charlie and a
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 6: bunch of other kids grieving Michael's suicide before high school starts.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 6: And then he says, oh, I didn't want this to
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 6: be a suicide movie and not.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 5: Wanting that to be the tone of the movie.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 6: And I'm just over here, like, but but it is
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 6: a suicide movie and that is okay, Like you don't
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 6: have to frame its right exactly, so you don't have
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 6: to frame it as like that. And again going back
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 6: to Tanuda Dobbs deleted scene, it's like what do you
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 6: what do you mean emotionally intense? And also this this
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 6: doesn't help that he has an extensive, like screenwriting background
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 6: either where he's trained by a bunch of other.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 5: White CIS dudes, and and.
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 6: So probably the mindset of like, oh, emotions equate bad
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 6: writing sort of thing, which I disagree with, and how
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 6: this is a topic that shows up in a lot
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 6: of his work, like he I understand that there are
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 6: a lot of there's a lot of discourse about rent,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 6: but uh, he he adapted that screenplay and he did
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 6: include the suicide that was in the original Broadway production.
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 5: But then the director is like, we're gonna cut it.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 6: And then you direct and write projects that that also
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 6: contained content about suicide. It's like that is okay, that
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 6: that's a topic that's close to you, Like, don't frame
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 6: it in a way that that you're like, oh, you know,
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 6: I didn't want it to be that movie and it's
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 6: and it's like no, like there are folks who need
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 6: that content, Like there's this there's this movie that Hugh
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 6: Jackman is in that's based off of a play called
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 6: The Sun, and that got bad reviews because they're all like, oh,
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 6: it's a melancholy and whatnot, and it's like, no, this
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 6: is actually a very real portrayal of how suicidal ideation happens,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 6: and also like it's able to portray it in a
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 6: way where it's like, no, you don't need like a Typically,
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 6: what a lot of films do is like they give
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 6: a reason for why someone is having mental health issues.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 6: And what I like about The Sun is how this
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 6: character explicitly says like I don't need a reason. I
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 6: just don't want to be alive, and it's uh right.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 6: And then that movie ends up getting bad reviews because
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 6: they're like, oh, too much emotion.
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: That's I didn't even know that. I was like, I would,
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: I'll watch that movie like.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 5: It's a it's a sad ending. I will say that
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 5: is okay, so be prepared for that. Watch it with
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 5: a friend.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: But that's so that's so wild though that it feels
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: like and I do wonder, Yeah, what kind of like
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: producer pressures there are to be like, oh, well, this
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: is like this is too much for a teenage audience,
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: versus like I also this says like what is considered
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: too much and not too much quote unquote, Like there's
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: such nebulous terms, and I feel like are so defined
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: by like the money people versus like what young audiences
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: would actually benefit from, because I'm sure that that would
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: be And but then also you're just like, well, this
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: is also the man that goes on to adapt Dear
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: Evan Hanson, So you know, how do we how do
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: we establish trust and what do we do?
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 6: It's confusing and that ended up getting bad reviews and
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 6: I'm over here like.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: Right, well, I guess he didn't write that one. He
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: directed it. It's so like he helped.
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 5: He helped with some of the writing. He and a
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 5: few others helped with some of the writing.
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 6: But yeah, the original like Broadway person who wrote it
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 6: is the main writer of it.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 3: Got It, Got It.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: I was like, wait, I don't I don't need to
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: contribute to the dunking on Deer Evan Hanson. There's there's
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: a whole cottage industry around dunking on that movie.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 5: But so many theater people, so.
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's like they've really angered the wrong
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: people this time. The last thing I wanted to say
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: was about Aunt Helen, where they didn't go deep into this.
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: I wonder if they in the book. I wasn't mad
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: about it, but I thought it was interesting that it
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: was mentioned because just based on what I know, it
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: did sort of seem to scan where Charlie makes a
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: reference to it sounds as if Helen may have been
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: abused as well, and yeah, and that he brings that
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: up in like almost as like a sort of defense
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: of her behavior was like, well, she was hurt, and
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: that is I mean, obviously there's no prescriptive way to
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: talk about this, but like that is something that frequently happens,
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: is that abusers have been abused themselves. And I was
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: glad they didn't harp on it. I didn't feel like
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: there was really a need to, but I thought that
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: it was It just felt pretty authentic that like if
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: Charlie knew that that would be something where that would
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: like come up for him when he was starting to
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: process that.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 6: In the book, they talk about how both aunt Helen
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 6: and Charlie's mom were physically abused by the by their father.
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 5: Okay, but that but that Aunt.
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 6: Helen was was was sexually abused by a friend of
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 6: the father So I did find it interesting that the
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 6: movie had decided like, oh, aunt Helen moved in because
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 6: of bad boyfriends, because in the book they're they're all like,
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 6: we don't know why Aunt Helen moved in, but she's
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 6: here now until she dies.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 3: Interesting, Okay, I have a question. There's a moment toward
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: the end where there's a flashback young Charlie is holding
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: I think his mom's hand to comfort her after the
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 3: death of Aunt Helen. I think it's his mom, but
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 3: I'm not.
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 5: Sure Aunt Helen's hand.
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 3: Oh it is so because like her risk kind of
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 3: turns over and you see scars from an apparent suicide
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 3: attempt on her wrist. So that was Aunt Helen. Yeah, Okay,
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 3: I wasn't sure what adult woman I was.
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, because I wasn't sure either, And then I
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: also knew that it was already established in like, I mean,
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: very very different situation. But like when he's hooking up
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: with Mary Elizabeth and he's thinking about Sam that like
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: faces would sometimes swap when he was like in his
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: So I wasn't. I just wasn't sure. Okay, that's got
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: good to know. And again it's like I I do
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: I wasn't bothered that the movie didn't harp on that,
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: but that it was acknowledged.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 3: The last thing I want to say is Sam's line
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 3: where she says, I'm not a bulliemic, I'm a bulee
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 3: mist Oh god, I love bulimia. I'm like, we're just
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 3: like Stephen Schabowski, what you.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: Will pay for your crimes? Yeah, weird ass nineties dialogue.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 6: He wrote a line and then apparently Emma Watson asra
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 6: Miller decided to do improv on that line, and that's
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 6: what ended up being bood final take.
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: It did sound very like sorry but like dumb ass
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: teenager like banter, but in a way that it was like,
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: did we need that? Wasn't necessarily don't wrote this? Yeah, yeah,
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: don't write You're like, but but a forty five year
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: old man wrote this down, so huh. Interesting.
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 5: The two adult actors were like, this is fine.
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the two twenty two year olds are like, let's
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: riff on this, and you're like, please don't or not
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: or not anyways, good job. Percy Jackson liked you in
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: a movie. I thought I thought he was good like
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed logan Lehrman's performance, and I enjoyed his performance
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: as Percy Jackson, so so there.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 4: Brave a few to admit, absolutely, But but this is
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 4: actually a great question.
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: Does this movie pass the Bechdel test?
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 3: Actually? Does it? I don't because, yeah, I didn't even
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 3: pay attention.
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 5: Because it's like, I'm not sure, because I'm not sure.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 6: I felt the same way if it passes because of
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 6: like the dialogue between Mary, Elizabeth and Alice.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 5: But at the same time, it's it's like it's only like.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 9: It's very quick pieces of yes, pieces of dialogue between
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 9: the two of them, or or does it pass when
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 9: Charlie's mom and sister are talking about like preparing to
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 9: shop for college, move and stuff, So I'm over here
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 9: like like does it pass the bare minimum or does
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 9: it pass this podcasts requirements for passing, and like it's.
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know. For the first time in a long time,
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: I actually really thought about the Bechdel test when watching
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: this movie, because there's actually a pretty, uh, pretty robust
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: discourse around whether this movie does or does not pass
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: the Bechdel test, which usually in my mind just says
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 1: it doesn't. Uh if it does by our standards, it
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: does not by the original standards of the Bechtel test.
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: It does, but as we say, like it should be
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: an impactful line of dialect and not something throwaway. There
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: is a throwaway line that I just thought was funny.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: There's just like passing conversation you hear between Mary Elizabeth
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: and Alice, so we know their names, and it's when
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 1: Charlie insults Mary Elizabeth's hair and Alice ses to Mary
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth it's kind of true, and Mary Elizabeth says, shut
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: shut up. So I would say, maybe that's a no
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: for us. And then there's another thing where there's like
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: a brief exchange between Mary Elizabeth and Charlie's mom, but
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: we don't know what Charlie's mom's name is, so I
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: would say that's a no. And also that exchange doesn't matter.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 3: Mary Elizabeth and Alice also talk about blue jeans where
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 3: one of them gives them as a gift to the
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 3: other person. Oh ha ha, you got me jeans.
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: Because I just counted that as like a group setting scene.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah right, I don't know. The bottom line is that
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 3: you would think the girls would talk to each other more,
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 3: But the creative voice behind this story doesn't really have
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 3: any interest in that.
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna say it's a gnarry that this does
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: not pass our version of the vexel test.
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fine with me. But what about that nipple
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 3: scale of ours? A scale where.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: What about a perfect metric that's never been wrong never ever?
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 3: We rate the movie on a scale of zero to
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 3: five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 3: feminist lens. I'm gonna do the Bechdel cast cheat code
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 3: and split down the middle two point five because while
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 3: it was either like ahead of its time or just
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 3: sort of like representing certain things that a lot of
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 3: media was hesitant to explore at this time and even
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 3: to some extent now still, but you know, things like
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 3: suicidal ideation and mental health issues among teenagers, openly queer
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 3: characters who don't have a completely tragic storyline and who
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 3: are pretty fully characterized, things like that. But then on
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 3: the other hand, it's so painfully white, and the excuse
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 3: that like, oh but this was an affluent suburb. No,
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 3: I don't buy it, Like.
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: Who's putting Like who is like forcing you to set
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: your story there exactly? Like people in every across class
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: boundaries have these problems exactly.
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 3: So there being not a single person of color who
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 3: speaks in the movie is glaring. The approach to the
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 3: Sam character and her like quote unquote torrid past.
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 1: Is so dramatic. I'm like, leave her hor.
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 3: Handled, like really fumbled the way that's handled. And again,
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 3: just the lack of interest of fully characterizing the girls
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 3: in this story in general, and they're not being space
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 3: made to just give them more interests, define them by
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 3: things besides either their trauma or the boys they're dating.
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 3: Things like that. It is also pretty claring. So I
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 3: think I'll stick with two and a half. And uh,
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 3: I'll give one nipple to the one black kid you
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 3: see walking past the screen at school.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 5: Also also two black people.
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 6: Then okay, there's there's a black doctor who doesn't speak,
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 6: and there's a black student who doesn't speak.
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 5: That's wild.
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 3: I think I saw a black student, but maybe it's
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 3: just wishful thinking. I'm not sure. And I'll give I'll
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 3: give one nipple to May Whitman because I like her
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 3: as an actor. And I'll give my half nipple to
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 3: sister Candace and and her going to prom stag with
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 3: her friends.
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I am justice for Candace movie Candace
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 1: at least. Yes, Yeah, I'm gonna I'll split down the
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: middle too. I think that this is a very sincere
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: movie with its heart mostly in the right place. But
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: I think and like, honestly, I didn't feel this as
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: strongly entering this conversation. This has been like a really
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: really clarifying, helpful conversation because you're both just so damn smart,
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: wow and beautiful and cool. There were killing it. This
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: zoom chat is electrics.
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 3: All three of us are so good for us are infinite.
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, in this moment we're infinite, and then our heads go.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that it's like, as far as
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: the way this movie treats its protagonist, Charlie, I generally
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: think it's a thoughtful movie that like tries to do
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: right by its protagonist. You see, I mean, whitest movie
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: in the world takes place in the upper middle class
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: being generous. These houses are fucking ginormous. So in some
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 1: ways it's very much the status quo of a teen movie.
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: But you also see representation that you don't see in
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: most teen movies, where but the representation representation you get
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 1: is limited to white men or white boys. However, you know,
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: within that, I do feel like Patrick imperfect and being
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: played by Ezra Miller certainly does not help synth the
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: size this character. But I did like that Patrick was
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: not defined by his trauma and he gets a happy ending,
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: and that's I feel like when queerness is portrayed in
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: youth media, that's I mean, even if we're talking de grassy,
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 1: very often not the case.
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 5: And he has good parents, he has good parents. It's
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 5: Brad who has terrible parents. He actually has good parents.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah do we meet his parents and.
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 5: The book you hear how great they are, but like, yeah, okay, yeah.
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: It's I think it is referenced in the like in
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: very very much in Passing, but that his family like
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 1: is accepting and loving of him, which like all families
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: should be. But I guess like for the early nineties,
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: that is like a good thing to be explicit about,
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 1: and that you know that different queer characters in the
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: movie have different backgrounds and there's not one prescriptive experience,
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 1: and that there is I think pretty solid portrayal of
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 1: a young male CSA survivor, which is again to this day,
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: very very rare in media. And I mean we talked
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: through that piece, but just I think gets a lot
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: right in a way that is horrible, Like it is
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: such a horrific topic to explore, but it's very important.
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: And I think that the especially like that he is
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: able to begin processing it and that it's clear that
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 1: it's like not just something that it like it's an
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: ongoing process. I liked that it showed that, like he's
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: going to be going back to doctor Joan Cusack for
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 1: a long time to like continue processing this experience. And
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: again you see a very privileged perspective on processing CSA.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: But it's so rare that I was happy that it
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: was there. However, docking it for not just the whiteness
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: of this movie and the class it's sort of set in,
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: but also how women do not really get the same
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: benefits of grace from the story and time and uh
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: from from the director and writer that the male characters do,
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 1: which just means you're not going to do great on
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: the Beattel cast. Sorry, so, uh, you know, justice for Sam.
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 1: I do want to read the book now and see
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: because I like Sam as a character and it's just
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 1: like you just don't get quite enough and the redemption
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: arc rhetoric, Oh, it just like made me turn on
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: him even harder when may when you like it confirmed that,
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: like and this is just how he feels, and you're like, okay,
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: well now I'm angry. Okay, so I'm going to go
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: two and a half on this. Uh you know, be
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: for effort. Good job, Percy Jackson. I'm giving all of
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: my nipples to doctor Joan Cusack. That's the real twist
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 1: of the movie. You're like the doctor's junk key.
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 3: She's in the opening credits, but by the time she
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 3: shows up, you forget that shears and you're like, oh right,
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 3: he was here all along.
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 1: Bigger jump scare than the decapitation scene and hereditary doctor
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: Joan Cusack so wild, especially because Kate Walsh It's more
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: shondaland talk What's wrong with Me? That Kate Walsh aka
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: Charlie's mom was famously on Gray's Anatomy and then Private Practice,
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: so I'm so used to seeing her be a doctor.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 1: But she's not a doctor in this movie. Joan cu
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: Suck's a doctor and that's an exciting twist for their
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 1: early twenty tens. We're like, wait, that's missus doctor and
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: they're like, nope, she's missus mommy. And we don't know
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: what she does. We have no idea, we don't even
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 1: know what her name is. She's missus kilmechis. Yep, well
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: that's my that's my comflorating. Also justice for Candace, yes
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: ma yah what say you?
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah? I okay.
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 6: I thought about this question beforehand because it's it's a
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 6: great part of the podcast format.
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 5: Thank you all very much. I will also give it
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 5: to and a half.
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 6: And there's there's so much casual, abless language in this movie.
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 6: And and of course it's and I know that it's
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 6: the nineties and I know they came out in twenty twelve,
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 6: but also it's like casualable.
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: Its way too casual, but you don't have to say it, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of like homophobic slurs as well, but
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 3: they're always said by characters who we know are like
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 3: bad people, and it's tricky. Sorry I continue.
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 6: I there's a deleted scene where where junk Kusk is
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 6: in the is in the opening because like the original
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 6: plan was to have the film open in the hospital
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 6: so that viewers could be like, oh, how did he
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 6: get there or whatever, and then they and they decided
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 6: to scrap it and My partner and I were watching
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 6: it and he was like, Okay, so it's nice.
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 5: That it opens with the tunnel and then it closes
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 5: with the tunnel.
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 1: Wow, I'm back.
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 6: And again to say, like, I do really appreciate that
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 6: there's a portrayal of a young person take taking medication
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 6: and it's not framed in a way where it's like, oh,
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 6: I stopped taking the meds because like they don't know.
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 6: It doesn't portray who I am or whatever, because I
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 6: see that way too often in movies, and it's nice
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 6: that it's just it's just an objective thing.
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 5: He just takes meds and it's fine.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 6: It is, and it is interesting listening to the commentary
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 6: how like there's a producer, Russ Smith, who had advocated
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 6: for making sure that scene remained in the movie, which
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 6: which I find interesting, especially in the year of Like
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 6: movie was made in twenty eleven, came out in twenty twelve,
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 6: so I like that it normalized that for its time.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 6: I don't like how Junkies X character is like, oh,
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 6: don't worry about the money, and it's like and it's
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 6: like no, because it Steven SHABASKI like wanting to encourage
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 6: kid's like, oh no, don't worry about the money, just
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 6: go go to the hospital you need to, and.
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 5: It's like no. And also again, when you.
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 3: Think about work that for a lot of people.
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 6: Right, when you think about kids of color and queer
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 6: kid and trans kids who have terrible experiences in there,
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 6: and like and how often psyche words are tied to
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 6: the prison industrial complex. This like is not a happy
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 6: ending for everybody, and it's and it's not accessible for everybody,
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 6: not everyone can afford therapy.
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: It's very like Puppies and Rainbow's approach to like law
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: enforcement and American health care.
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, and all the actors did did such a
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 6: did such a great job, even though they're yeah, two
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 6: actors being in it, it's like they're not great people.
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 6: And I do appreciate that everyone's humanity is held well
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 6: in place, because I know that in the commentary he
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 6: was like there are no villains he kept saying, which
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 6: I can appreciate, even when it comes to Helen's characters,
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 6: as you were saying, like they portray her humanity without
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 6: like excusing anything that.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: She did, right, which is like so hard to do.
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's felt like one of the things that
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: they really succeeded at.
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so I give it two and a half have nipples.
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 6: One nipple is to be shared between May Whitman and
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 6: Emma Watson.
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 5: I was at South Advacy.
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 6: For her, and Emma Watson overall does does a great
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 6: performance and it's great that like this is this was
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 6: her first movie where she gets to be a featured character.
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 5: That was like, oh, that's like away from the Harry
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 5: Potter franchise. I thought it was very cool that at.
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 6: The time, for like, while prepping for press for this movie,
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 6: Steve Schabaski was like, I don't know how to do this,
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 6: and Emma Watson was like, oh, I have years of experience.
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 5: Let me tell you.
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 3: She knows how to be in a movie where she
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 3: has two friends and both of them are both of them.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 1: That's true. This is Emma Watson canon and she ends
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: up with one of the boys. Interesting, I've seen this before.
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 3: And to be clear, I know we know that Ezra
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 3: Miller is non binary. Yes, but the character of Patrick,
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 3: you know uses he him pronouns.
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we shuld have acknowledged that sooner.
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 10: But anyway, So two and a half nipples, yeah, one nipples,
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 10: shared between May Whitman and Emma Watson, so Mary Elizabeth
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 10: and Sam one nipple that is shared between Nina doe
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 10: Brev and Kate Walsh because there are some delete scenes
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 10: with where Kate Walsh and Charlie interact as well that
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 10: I'm getting.
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 6: Deleted, which which personally I believe what was for the best.
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 6: But still it's like Kate, Kate Walsh just deserves better
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 6: in general, like Private Practice got canceled, Bad Judge got canceled.
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 6: She she played, she played Hannah's mom and thirteen reasons why.
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: I was like, like, she deserves so much better. Give
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: this woman a role that isn't corny, challenge, like not possible. Actually,
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen The Umbrella Academy maybe maybe really like
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: but and she's in Emily in Paris. She's in every
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: corny show of all time.
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 5: And Ambrilla Academy. It's a good time. Like there are
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 5: definitely some cheesyellas, but I had a great time.
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 6: Oh my god, I've written about that show a lot
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 6: last year. Anyways, And and the half nipple goes to
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 6: Paul Rudd for shooting for twos.
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: Care because he's in this Yeah, he's in the same
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: room the whole time, and he's like, I need to
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: cut my hair. I need something.
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 3: He's like, Charles Dickens, great girl, My god, so correct.
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: The last thing I want to say to close out
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: the episode is about Pittsburgh, my new favorite American city.
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: I love Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh's the best. And I was in
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: Pittsburgh with Sarah Marshall and she and her friends are
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: showing me this old tourism video for Pittsburgh that was
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 1: so from like the late eighties, that was so defensive,
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: like it was the most self conscious promotion of a
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 1: city I've ever seen. But it's just like videos of
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: Pittsburgh and you're and like, I think it gets a
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: bad rap. But it opens with like all this all
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: this voiceover that's like, why would I want to go
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: to Pittsburgh.
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 11: El Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh dip my car breakdown, and I was like,
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 11: geez it, Like cuts to a sweeping view of Pittsburgh
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 11: and this grand voice is like, Pittsburgh is actually a
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 11: great American city, and then it says.
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 1: My favorite part says Pittsburgh has the most bridges in
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 1: any city in America or the world. And then there's
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: a long pause, and then he goes except for Venice,
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 1: and then it just goes to the next part. I
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: just have never seen a more lukewarm endorsement of their
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: own city. Shout out Pittsburgh. I'd like to give my
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: nipples to doctor John Cusack and Pittsburgh.
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 3: Okay beautiful, Yeah, yes, wow, well, thank you.
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 6: Thank you so much for having me. This was delightful.
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 6: This was incredible. Y'all are incredible.
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 3: Come back for dear Evan Hansen.
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: Oh my God, or something else or anything for something
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: else that's true.
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I will listen. I will do so much with y'all. Yeah,
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 6: y'all are fantastic.
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Where can people follow you on
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 3: social media? Check out your work, plug your book if.
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, like yes, I would love to.
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 6: Folks can find me at Maya Williamspoet dot com, m
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 6: A y A Williamspoet dot com. I'm on Instagram and Twitter.
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 6: M dub sixteen E M M dubb one six I
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 6: have a poetry collection called Judith and Suicide. It is
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 6: about have responding to religious related trauma and suicidality. There
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 6: are different poems in the book that respond to different
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 6: Bible verses. Where a completed suicide and attempted suicide or
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 6: suicidal ideation takes place. The book also talks about how
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 6: often do we use carceral language when discussing our mental
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 6: health or suicidality, talks about healing from sexual violence, and
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 6: it also involves some poems about how suicide is portrayed
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 6: in film and TV. I write a lot of essays
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 6: about mental health and suicide and an entertainment media. You
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 6: can buy the game over books or at your local
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 6: independent bookstore and they will get it for you. And
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 6: and again wanting to do perks because again I was
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 6: It's a formative movie for me when it came to
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 6: representation of suicidality, especially when it comes to the scene
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 6: where Charlie goes like, he just tell me how to
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 6: make it stop.
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 5: And that still.
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 6: Resonating with me years later because it's like it doesn't stop.
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 5: Brontal. This mental health shit is.
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 6: Nonlinear and you go and learn and like. And also
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 6: the book does a better Joe talking about Charlie's Catholic
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 6: upbringing as he's trying to navigate it's trying to navigate
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 6: sex and mental health, and like Mary Elizabeth's journey with
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 6: Buddhism has talked a little bit more, even though not
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 6: as well as Charlie navigating Catholicism because men think so.
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 6: I do wish that the movie had gave more of
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 6: an opportunity to explore religion more. That wasn't just Mary
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 6: with not knowing how ash Wednesday.
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 1: Works, right.
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 3: I wasn't sure if she just thought he had a
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 3: smudge on his head or if she's just like religious anarchy.
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 3: Don't follow Mary.
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, she's doing her best, but she's just
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 1: like so much.
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 5: Welly, no, go ahead.
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 6: I did a video podcast series with my friend Mia
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 6: Stewart Willis called Dying Laughing where we where we've talked
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 6: about the representation of suicidality and like television shows and
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 6: movies and music we have. We have two more episodes
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 6: coming out and then we're then we're closing it.
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 5: But yeah, that's a project I'm very proud of.
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 3: Awesome. Yes, check all of that out and you can
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 3: follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 3: can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon, where we cover
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 3: two movies a month, or we do two episodes a month.
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 3: Because earlier this month we explained the WGA strike, and
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 3: we also have an episode on Newsy's coming out because
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 3: it's Junie Junior.
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 1: Get it in your head, get it through your head.
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 1: It's really brilliant wordplay. It might not makes sense at first,
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 1: but no, it's great.
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 3: But that can be found at patreon dot com slash
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 3: bectil cast five dollars a month those two bonus episodes
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 3: every month, plus access to the entire back catalog.
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 1: It's true. You can also go to teapublic dot com
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 1: slash me Bechtel cast for all your merchandising needs. And
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 1: with that, my friends, let's get into the truck and
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: to wait Wait waits Hereditary.
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 3: To Infinity and beyond.
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 1: That's definitely what Percy Jackson said in the movie Bye
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 1: Okay Bye