Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / STA201 - 'Move Well: Physical Literacy' with special guest John Scriven

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STA201 - 'Move Well: Physical Literacy' with special guest John Scriven · The STA Clinician Podcast

• 0:00
  You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
• 0:04
  back into soft tissue therapy.
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  Music.
• 0:17
  Hi people, how are you doing? We're
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  live. Welcome to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, episode 201.
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  Doesn't that sound fantastic, wonderful? And my name is Matt Phillips,
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  creator of OneChatLive.com.
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  And as always, this episode is being recorded live on the Sports Therapy Association
• 0:33
  YouTube channel, and also, for those of you who prefer, on Facebook page.
• 0:38
  Before we start, are you an STN member who would like to be on this podcast?
• 0:43
  It's a great way to share your knowledge and to raise your profile amongst other
• 0:47
  therapists and clients.
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  It looks great on your CV, whether you're giving that to maybe renting something
• 0:52
  at a clinic or whether you're looking for more clients.
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  And I ask this because on the first Tuesday of every month
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  for those of you unaware we do a ask us anything
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  episode which is basically where we get a panel of
• 1:03
  sports therapy association members to answer questions sent
• 1:06
  in by listeners and we haven't
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  done it I think we missed out one month but on Tuesday July the 2nd
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  at eight o'clock and the topic is
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  going to be therapy for swimmers so if
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  you are an STA member and you'd
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  like to be on that panel because you do work with swimmers and
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  you've got some experience i'm going to hold my hand up probably about
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  seven swimmers in 10 years then email me
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  that's because they were triathletes email me matt at the sto.co.uk
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  and even if you're not sure that you
• 1:36
  want to be on it but you're kind of tempted then email me
• 1:39
  as well and we can have a little discuss maybe even a zoom call we've had
• 1:41
  before what it entail and then maybe you'll
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  get the confidence to come on it right so
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  recently we concluded a three-part series
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  on tendons all available on your
• 1:53
  preferred podcast app and tonight we're starting a two-part special on movement
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  and in part one my special guest coming up very shortly will be John Striven
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  founder of MoveWell who is a natural movement and rehabilitation specialist
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  with a passion for helping individuals achieve physical literacy.
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  Next week in part two at nine o'clock because once again my guest is going to
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  be joining us from Australia my guest is going to be Stephen King of matassessment.com,
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  where MAT stands for, you guessed it, Movement Assessment Technologies.
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  Stephen will be talking to us about movement assessment, the latest research,
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  and how this helped him create his movement assessment tool, aptly named The MAT.
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  That'll be part two next week, but for now it's part one of our movement special,
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  entitled Move Well, Physical Literacy, with my special guest,
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  who I shall bring up now, John Scripman.
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  Music.
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  Hi John, how are you? I'm nice to see you. Isn't it wonderful when there's no
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  technical problems at all?
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  It's lovely, isn't it? Life just shows technology is all good,
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  nothing bad about it at all.
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  Anyway, so thanks for joining us, giving up your time.
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  For listeners who didn't see you at Therapy Expo last year, which we might mention
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  a little bit at the end as well, because I believe you're going to come along
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  to Therapy Expo this year, in November, which would be fantastic to see you again.
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  Could you give us a little summary of your background and how MoveWell ended up being? in?
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  Yeah, so I was quite fortunate to grow up in, well, for all the Brummies out
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  there, I was quite fortunate to grow up in Southern Caulfield next to Southern Caulfield Park.
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  It's a 2,000 acre park and I had three brothers.
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  So we were outside pretty much permanently and in that park,
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  I fell in love with movement and we would go through the park,
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  you know, up in the morning and back when the lights came on at night,
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  all day, every day, exploring, climbing, building bases,
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  just doing what you know good 80s kids did and
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  you know really exploring the environment and a move
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  of being shaped by environment so i love that and that really set the
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  tone my brother was a national 400 meter runner so i
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  used to see him training and what a wonderful that you know sort of mental that
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  was so i got him very interested in the type of training he did and started
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  an athletics kind of journey while i was still in birmingham then moved to jersey
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  when i was in my mid-teens and And kind of got involved with squash and rugby
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  and then back into athletics and myself became a national 400 meter runner.
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  Not a brilliant one, but reasonably competitive at club level.
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  And yeah, from there, just really fell in love with coaching.
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  The typical routes were sport, exercise, science, physiology,
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  undergraduate, postgraduate, human performance, which I really specialised in
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  rehabilitation and S&C, became an accredited S&C coach and have been so for 16 or 17 years now.
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  And in between that, working in various different roles within movement.
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  So some personal training work, some internship around S&C, and various different
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  sports involvement and different materials of coaching at that time as well.
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  So I, from there, interned with a gentleman who was running a small high-performance unit in Jersey.
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  And so I got my first taste of, you know, reasonably good national level,
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  county level S&C coaching, really, for the large part.
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  And I did all the donkey work on the research and kind of setting up the gym
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  and doing all the stuff, cleaning and then taking a little bit more responsibility.
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  But again, you know, continued falling in love with that.
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  And from then I managed to bag myself a job in a prison as a manager,
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  head of physical education.
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  And that was an eye opener and went down that route. And we had a large rehab
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  unit, which was really looking at shoulder pain and lower back pain,
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  particularly for heroin users.
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  Diseases and that causes an absolute myriad of
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  issues and skeletally so we had
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  a physiotherapist working in there a number of rehab trainers alongside
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  the other physical education and physical
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  activity programs that we ran so that was a big eye-opener and fell in love
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  with the rehab site and i've just kind of continued from there really and i
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  ended up moving from there into having my own business for a little while then
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  from that another opportunity came up to manage a bigger high performance program
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  in jersey which i started as a senior ssc coach and a small team,
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  took that from being part-time to having six full-time sports scientists and two or two.
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  Doctorate psychologists and videos working for me there which was cool and we
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  worked with at any one time about 150 athletes across 18 different sports and
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  i think i counted with one of my old coaches that we'd worked with over a thousand
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  athletes all at national level and above from junior all the way to, you know,
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  master's level athletes for over 15 years.
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  So that was kind of my main bread and butter, going through the different stages
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  and processes, different roles, and ended up managing the whole programme for seven years.
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  And then through that, I kind of came to predominantly in sort of high performance
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  and high performance rehab.
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  But as the last five years happened, I suddenly grew a little bit tired of the
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  one-dimensionalness of S&C coaching.
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  And we'll talk about how that pertains to movement therapy and rehab in a second,
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  particularly when working with younger athletes.
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  And i recognized that there
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  was a real problem particularly in the last 10 years around movement poverty
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  and a lack of real movement skill or what i call movement nutrition or physical
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  literacy we might call it another way and so i went down a road of kind of looking
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  at what does movement actually mean outside of uh snc yeah and snc do a really
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  good job by the way at movement i'm not saying there's a you know i say there's
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  a problem they do a really good job at what they do.
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  But when we're not talking about you know an athlete high
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  performance athlete that's tweaked to hamstring and we're trying to
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  rehabilitate that versus you know someone
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  that doesn't have the capacity to achieve activity daily
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  life it becomes quite a different different story
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  and a different problem to solve and i just fell in love
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  with general movement and studied a lot under edo
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  quartile alan lacore athletic skills
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  model randy walbert back in the netherlands
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  uh just a whole range of dr margaret whitehead a
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  whole range of people i've been very fortunate to study
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  down there and I used sort of five years as a big literature of urine immersion
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  into just wider movement away from sports and it opened my eyes completely to
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  the things that perhaps I was getting wrong previously and here we are now into
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  the world of movement therapy and physical literacy coaching.
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  So I have interest to take you back a little bit you were working with a huge
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  amount of athletes all different levels and up to very elite levels what was
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  it that caused you to step
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  back and in your own words say this is a bit like kind of one-dimensional was
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  it you weren't getting results or was it that you your heart just wasn't in
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  it or you know what made you step back.
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  I recognized that we were surfing athletes
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  at this level and they tweak a
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  hamstring and we fix that hamstring they go back off to the coach and
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  there's a real disconnect between what that athlete actually
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  needs from a broad base of movement which if
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  you think about you know know performance being a pyramid and the
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  pyramid can only be as high as the base is wide so what
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  we were doing we're actually quite narrow columns almost
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  in terms of athletes general movement skills
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  were quite narrow stacking it was an inverted pyramid so they had quite narrow
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  movement skills and very wide specialist skills and we're fixing those specialist
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  skills getting the back on the track and they would re-break and they would
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  re-break and they would re-break and effectively didn't have the capacity and
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  the skill set to be able to tolerate higher levels of training because the base isn't wide enough.
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  And particularly for youth athletes, I mean, that was with the senior athletes,
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  but with the youth athletes, we were effectively able to.
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  Encouraging more specialization and that was my biggest frustration
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  with it young athletes need to have variation
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  not specialization in my opinion and we were doing them a disservice that we
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  weren't developing an athlete or human-centric model it was a sport-centric
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  model that was focused on results and those individuals would either leave the
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  sport and become sedentary because of a lack
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  of physical literacy that should have been developed where the sport was developing
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  sports specialist skills at a stage where it's really important they develop
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  well-rounded movement skills.
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  And then later that reared its ugly head because it reared its head as underperformance.
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  Why can't this athlete produce better performances? We're adding more and more
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  load on them. Come on, you should be getting better.
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  This is they don't have the fundamental skill set to sit behind them,
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  the capacities to tolerate that.
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  So they break, they break, they break. and it's ultimately one
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  of the problems with western sport is that compared to eastern
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  sport programs i was quite fortunate to study
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  the soviet union and the chinese systems have
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  a very very different approach to athlete development which is
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  very much more around becoming a specialist
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  generalist at a younger age where we specialize specialize
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  you get quick results at junior level performances but we often find that we
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  get early dropout burnout and lots of injury at senior stages so that's kind
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  of what i was seeing at the adult level and i felt in my heart i was probably
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  doing the wrong thing for those athletes junior level but my job depended on me getting results.
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  So you got this balance between doing the right thing the ethical and moral
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  things for young people which you can't really measure that easily and it doesn't
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  show its benefits until maybe 10 years down the line but it's getting quick
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  results and showing that we can get this athlete maybe a a little bit quicker
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  in a specialised role. So I was at a real...
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  Ethical and moral debate in my gut about what
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  was right and i started finding that my training moved quite
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  a lot away from that and then i wasn't really being a high
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  performance coach anymore i was just being a movement coach so
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  that's where i think the divergence happened it's interesting
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  because and this is i should
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  just jump in here and say that the reason you're not going to hear
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  any questions at the moment and i think it's been a technical problem which which
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  worries me a little little bit because i think me and johnny
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  are going to get a little bit deeper and just and just talk
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  it could be a whole new interesting different experience for.
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  You the listener but uh yeah if you don't hear it being broken up
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  by questions because we've had some technical issues but anyway and
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  i'll just remember now that this is actually going out the listeners
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  and not just for me because it's so interesting what you're saying anyway i've almost
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  i've just thrown away my my metaphorical crib
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  shit and i'm just listening to you now i'm reflecting so i wonder
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  whether because we've talked about this before on the
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  show a lot of clinicians who you were working with a
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  lot of athletes you had actually quite a nice sample large sample
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  population to reach that conclusion to
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  actually get a more accurate idea of
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  what was working what wasn't working what your success rate was
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  and that sort of stuff and you also had people breathing down your
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  neck reminding you every time it didn't work and and
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  i worry whether one of
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  the reasons why this system does work for sole old
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  clinicians or small clinic practices because we
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  do tend to just remember the times things do work and
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  and we don't keep a tally of the clients where things don't work or they don't
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  come back and see us we kind of brush that under the carpet don't we so and
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  it's nothing against clinicians because it's probably a very human characteristic
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  but we only remember the good times so we really do believe that our clinic
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  is thriving that we're building our business and everything's great when And really,
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  a lot of us, if we did write down the times when things haven't worked out and
• 13:43
  the client hasn't got better or the client hasn't come back,
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  then we'd realize that it's.
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  Could even be like 50 50 or something people getting better than
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  people not and if people had the reflection and
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  the accurate kind of data to show what you just said then i think a
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  lot of people would be a little bit disheartened which might not be such
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  a bad thing because i start thinking you know what something i'm doing
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  here is wrong something's not working but you
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  reach that because of the situation you're in and you
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  took must have been quite a brave step of going you know what some i've
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  got to pull away here and do something different because i'm not
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  being true to what i'm saying i'm offering it's quite brave i
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  commend you for it i think we were forced to do we had no
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  choice there's been some really good work out there um avery
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  faginborn if anyone's interested in looking at this area he's done quite a lot
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  of work in youth athlete development rodrigo lloyd is another one who's done
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  some really good work looking at the needs of youth athletes one of my mentors
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  oh god the calvin giles a wonderful he was head of australian athletics.
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  For 20 years a guy from dudley in birmingham man
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  very very famous athletics coach in
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  the uk also ran the brisbane broncos program for
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  10 years before dan baker took over dan baker is
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  a wonderful sc coach very very funny a little
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  bit uh now their language is interesting we'll
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  get out of there but i'm certainly certainly an old school hardcore sc
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  coach which you probably need for working the brisbane broncos but calvin took
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  a lot of information from the 1950s and 60s curriculum which he was trained
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  in and took out to Australia and he's a big advocate for this developing the
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  movement vocabulary in young athletes and really giving the capacity and the bandwidth to enhance.
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  More ceiling height if we increase the
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  bandwidth this way we get more ceiling height in sports skill later
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  so it pushes it up from the bottom not just
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  pulls from the top which we're kind of a bit guilty of in the
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  west for you know quick results i
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  call it microwaving you know we microwave to get quick results
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  where slow cooking is the answer but you just have to be patient to get results
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  but rodney lloyd's done some really good work in trying to help encourage people
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  towards was that of course of course istanbali through the long-term play development
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  model has done a bit of work in that there's a whole range of tutor pompa classic periodization guru,
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  he's taken some of the first work from the eastern block and brought it back
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  into the west around some multilateral development of young people and i took
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  a lot of all this information i studied mel siff euro verashansky all the stuff
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  from the eastern block when it came across now Now,
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  SIF's a wonderful text if people want to kind of have a look at some of this work.
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  And they made it work for Western or they made it understandable for Western coaches.
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  Not necessarily that it really worked, but the philosophy made sense.
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  And it makes it very clear why we get lots of injuries. It's great,
• 16:32
  essentially, for our businesses.
• 16:34
  Oh, yeah. That's what I'm hoping. Yeah. So let's get into that.
• 16:37
  Let's get into. So hopefully people listening are thinking, OK,
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  well, I love this analogy, the pyramid.
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  And we're not building that foundation wide enough. it's a lovely idea and it's
• 16:46
  prepared a few people to think okay well how am i going to make that base wider
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  what are we missing out on and and if you could link that to the idea of physical
• 16:55
  literacy presumably it's physical
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  literacy kind of encompasses what why we've got such a narrow base,
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  yeah so if we think about a triangle of sport performance i want people to try
• 17:06
  and stop thinking about triangle think more of a rectangle and the rectangle.
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  At the bottom, it's the same as the old base of the triangle.
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  We're talking about the fundamental ability to move in all environments and
• 17:17
  all amplitudes and all directions and all skill sets, all biomotor,
• 17:21
  biodynamic, and bioenergetic abilities.
• 17:23
  So that whole biological basis of movement, which we kind of knew and now it's
• 17:27
  brought over from the Eastern approaches.
• 17:30
  But they've retuned that physical literacy now. And that physical literacy piece,
• 17:34
  if we're looking in a player development model, and we go back to sport just
• 17:38
  for a second, I'll bring it back into therapy in a second.
• 17:40
  Now, from nought to the sampling years where we're talking plus or minus one
• 17:46
  or two years, depending on whether you're male or female, but let's just say
• 17:48
  the beginning of secondary school, so that's 11, 12 years old.
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  Those are the physical literacy years. And that's when our nervous system is
• 17:55
  most plastic to motor school development. And in plastic, I mean malleable.
• 17:59
  We're able to, like, we all know that children pick up skills very,
• 18:03
  very quickly, much more quickly than an adult.
• 18:05
  Now, all things are trainable all the time, but the malleation of nerves
• 18:08
  are much easier when they're younger we have this
• 18:11
  sort of optimal window of accessibility particular
• 18:14
  things like speed development upper body strength which
• 18:17
  we know is really difficult with modern youth and particularly young females
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  it's really difficult to get and if it hasn't been developed before maturation
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  is quite difficult so this kind of physical literacy piece has the physical
• 18:30
  component at the beginning and it has the cognitive component which is what
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  the old research didn't have,
• 18:36
  which is the knowledge and understanding about what it means to be a healthy person.
• 18:41
  Happy, you know, in terms of movement and confident.
• 18:44
  And then we've got the effective piece, which then brings the self-efficacy
• 18:48
  and the confidence piece and the daily behaviours around active living and being physically active.
• 18:53
  Now, from a player development perspective, we say those things need to be done really in the nought to,
• 18:59
  early teens really probably is the the right way to look
• 19:02
  at it but from a broader physical
• 19:05
  literary perspective that stuff's trainable all the
• 19:08
  time so we go back to our rectangle rather than
• 19:11
  the pyramid we will have a pyramid where people will
• 19:14
  go through that pathway and choose sport but we'll
• 19:17
  have a whole piece of that rectangle which is the other side of the pyramid where
• 19:20
  people don't choose sport but their enjoyment and
• 19:24
  participation of physical activity to be greatly enhanced by
• 19:27
  increasing the bottom of the triangle the width of it so the
• 19:30
  area above that is much bigger it's probably
• 19:33
  easier for me to draw this and maybe i can put a link to that
• 19:35
  where people can have a read of this later on so so
• 19:38
  we're still growing that base of physical literacy
• 19:41
  skills so people can go out and enjoy physical activity or sports performance
• 19:45
  and segue between the two if they want to without getting injured and being
• 19:49
  broken but let's just park sport now just leave that for a second because i
• 19:53
  want to bring it right back into of movement coaching and what we can do as
• 19:56
  therapists working in maybe a non-sport environment.
• 20:00
  And a physical literacy piece gives people that confidence to move.
• 20:06
  And the more confident they can move, the more physically active they'll be,
• 20:09
  the more skill sets and tools they have to move, the different types of ways
• 20:14
  and different types of environments they'll be active in. So what we're asking
• 20:17
  them to think about is grow that base of movement,
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  And then people will have more capacity and more resiliency,
• 20:23
  resilience to injury. So it's kind of like the prevention perspective.
• 20:27
  But even when we think then about from an injury perspective,
• 20:30
  how do we rehab an injury and try to stop that injury from coming back again?
• 20:35
  So actually, we never want them really to necessarily come back through our
• 20:39
  doors because we want to do such a good job that they had the knowledge,
• 20:42
  understanding and the confidence and the competence to go out there,
• 20:45
  enjoy their sport, enjoy their physical activity without the fear of being re-injured.
• 20:50
  So this comes back into, well, what does physical literacy training look like?
• 20:54
  And this is the difficult piece where I think I have some of the answers, but not all of them.
• 21:00
  And it's operational or operational, I can never say that word.
• 21:04
  Making physical literacy operative is really difficult. And the jury's still
• 21:08
  a little bit out about how you do that.
• 21:10
  But I've kind of gone down a bit of a natural movement route.
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  And it's kind of provided some of the answers. I've taken some samples from
• 21:22
  neurodevelopmental theory, some from evolutionary theory,
• 21:26
  and some from athletic development theory, some elements just from ecological
• 21:31
  systems, which has been quite interesting, kind of blend it all together.
• 21:34
  And then some elements from my strength training background and the functional
• 21:38
  training background, which are all, you know, really cool.
• 21:41
  And so they come up with a system that I think works quite well.
• 21:44
  And yeah, I'm happy to talk about that if that's interesting, Matt.
• 21:48
  Now that's great i mean i'm interested as well to link it to because so far
• 21:52
  i'm putting myself in the position of the listener and also i'm going through
• 21:55
  my own kind of protocols when i get a runner coming to me who's injured and
• 21:58
  a lot of it kind of links over and we talked about this on the other episode
• 22:04
  you want i should point out for people actually if you want to.
• 22:07
  An introduction to the term physical literacy then back in episode 177 in december
• 22:12
  and john was also i guess on the show so there's a whole hour dedicated to it
• 22:17
  then which which you may well find interesting and distance as well but i think
• 22:22
  we drew back then a comparison between,
• 22:25
  the physical literacy and the kind of emergence of biopsychosocial because the
• 22:29
  idea of biopsychosocial is you're kind of widening that foundation by considering
• 22:34
  the psychosocial facts as well
• 22:35
  which which could be, in a modern interpretation, connects to the pain.
• 22:39
  But I remember even back then you said that you identified some limitations
• 22:43
  of the bio-psychosocial.
• 22:45
  So I'm interested, but this is out there thinking, well, I already kind of do this.
• 22:48
  I know that we don't just concentrate on that hip, which is giving them pain.
• 22:52
  I'm concentrating on everything else, the psychosocial side of it.
• 22:55
  What else are you implying that needs to be added to that base,
• 22:58
  which isn't covered by a consideration of the psychosocial factors?
• 23:03
  Well, from a pain science perspective, So I think the biopsychosocial model
• 23:06
  is really good. And that's typically how we learn that model is around pain science.
• 23:11
  I think it goes much broader than just pain science, the biopsychosocial model.
• 23:15
  So I'm not discounting that. I use it every day and really, really love it.
• 23:18
  Physical literacy sort of works and segues inside the biopsychosocial model.
• 23:22
  It just makes us think a little bit more about the knowledge and understanding piece.
• 23:28
  So there's that psychological piece to, or the cognitive piece, I should say, to.
• 23:34
  Physical literacy and then you have them explain that for
• 23:37
  me as well what do you mean by the cognitive pieces because it's
• 23:40
  educating patients and educating people on the
• 23:43
  value of movement how to move the broader
• 23:46
  context of movement so it might be looking at movement from an evolutionary
• 23:49
  perspective so when we look at you know what really motivates someone to move
• 23:53
  or change their behavior it's not just about giving them the skill set like
• 23:57
  this is how you do i don't know a tripod transition for example from the ground
• 24:01
  why is that important how would you use it what kind of.
• 24:06
  Systems might you use it in and give them the understanding and awareness of
• 24:09
  like a constraint or an ecological context about
• 24:13
  how you might actually use that in real life and then i'll be much more motivated to
• 24:16
  use it as opposed to just saying right we're going to do a
• 24:18
  nordic cow or yeah yeah yeah you know
• 24:21
  this is talking about facilitating behavior change
• 24:25
  because we know that non-compliance of exercise is an
• 24:28
  issue and people we blame the clients when they don't do the exercise so
• 24:31
  if we use more of this approach they grasp why it's
• 24:33
  important yeah we talked a little bit i think the therapy expo
• 24:36
  last year about being a facilitator not a dictator and i think that's really
• 24:41
  important piece so that teaching aspect to physical literacy and the knowledge
• 24:47
  and understanding that cognitive piece is absolutely vital but it doesn't mean
• 24:51
  that you know the the The confidence piece,
• 24:55
  the effective piece about self-worth and how we value ourselves is equally as important.
• 24:59
  So building up the confidence and through skill sets,
• 25:04
  through knowledge, understanding and programming in a way that is graded,
• 25:09
  that makes it feel fun and maybe reconnects to a type of movement that they connect with,
• 25:16
  with as opposed to something that is coach or
• 25:19
  therapist centered and making it patient centered
• 25:23
  is essential to do that and then there's
• 25:26
  also the physical competency piece that links into that so you
• 25:29
  know this is the system of movement of which you
• 25:32
  choose to use and we've gone through many systems of movement over the last
• 25:35
  100 years of physical education physical fitness development most lasting have
• 25:41
  probably come through the functional training era and now we're probably moving
• 25:44
  into the strength training era from what it feels like and i see a lot of snc stuff uh,
• 25:50
  warming its way into the therapeutic world which is which is fine.
• 25:56
  And yeah, I mean, so that pathway, and we could talk about how I approach that.
• 26:01
  I'm not sure, was that okay in terms of answering what you meant by that,
• 26:04
  Matt? Oh, definitely, yeah.
• 26:05
  I'm just interested in showing listeners that really what you're talking about, I think, as I take it.
• 26:14
  Is it's about tweaking what they're already doing, adding slightly to it.
• 26:19
  Or just changing the weights of what you're doing.
• 26:21
  Because a lot of the time these a lot of
• 26:24
  new systems come along with new acronyms and things and
• 26:27
  and it kind of suggests that power is suggesting
• 26:30
  to the therapist you'll be doing it wrong till now and this is
• 26:33
  the new revolutionary thing but i want to make it clear obviously that's
• 26:36
  not the case with you and you are drawing from little
• 26:39
  bits of lots of different systems that kind of work but when
• 26:42
  you're dealing with a human being it's how you weigh them put together that's
• 26:45
  can get you better results so yeah i mean
• 26:48
  i'm gonna put it in a different way you know this is a it's quite
• 26:51
  a it's hard to wrestle this physical literacy
• 26:54
  piece but it's it's so so if we look at a lot
• 26:58
  of the movement systems that we've used are quite specialized
• 27:01
  movement systems so if we look at the snc industry and the influence that's
• 27:04
  having on therapy you know it's really it's really
• 27:06
  good but it's very very specialized so when we talk about
• 27:09
  you know we might use a nordic cow
• 27:12
  for hamstring capacity which is really common
• 27:15
  very on vogue at the moment you know
• 27:18
  a nordic curl gets you better at nordic curls it does
• 27:22
  it builds tissue strength how much
• 27:25
  variability of tissue strength and skill does it
• 27:28
  give us does it give as much skill it doesn't it's really focusing on a capacity
• 27:31
  in isolation or what we might call a biomotor ability in isolation and that
• 27:37
  would be one of my challenges to snc and how it applies to the physical literacy
• 27:42
  of our patients because Because remember, we go back to that rectangle.
• 27:46
  At the bottom of the rectangle, it's incredibly general movement,
• 27:49
  multilateral development.
• 27:50
  As we go up, it becomes more and more specialized, more and more specialized.
• 27:54
  And S&C works incredibly well for individuals that are, particularly as a senior
• 28:00
  S&C, historic has worked very well for individuals who are already very,
• 28:03
  very good at their sport.
• 28:05
  And youth S&C isn't necessarily that. Youth S&C should be more of a middle ground between the two.
• 28:12
  And the challenges with isolatory,
• 28:16
  development and we might still be talking about compound lifts for example but
• 28:20
  it's still a biomotor skill in isolation we're training strength or we're training
• 28:23
  power or we're training speed or we're training reactivity or maximum force
• 28:28
  RFD that type of stuff but it's still in isolation to make.
• 28:32
  That individual who's already well-trained have potentially more output in a certain area.
• 28:37
  Whereas if we're thinking about, you know, a client who wants to go out and
• 28:41
  walk on the beach safely and, I don't know, reduce the fear of falling over, for example, well,
• 28:49
  clearly maybe a physical literacy skill set might not be to worry too much about
• 28:54
  being really, really strong.
• 28:56
  It might be about, well, can they operate and walk safely
• 28:59
  on an uneven surface for example do they
• 29:02
  have the ability to absorb a fall and
• 29:05
  have the technique to do so i'm not saying that you know them improving the
• 29:08
  bench press might not make their shoulders more stable it would
• 29:11
  do but i'd like to say you know can they get back off the ground
• 29:14
  okay do they have the bandwidth to better get off
• 29:17
  the ground without using their arms for example and do it in three or four
• 29:19
  different ways rather than i don't know one way
• 29:22
  do they are they able to stand up off the ground in an
• 29:25
  unsupported manner in four or five different ways because we
• 29:28
  have no idea how they're going to fall so although i like
• 29:31
  to improve people's strength there's a huge skill side piece that
• 29:34
  the typical snc approach doesn't work i
• 29:37
  mean the squat although it's a complex skill it's just one movement and it's
• 29:42
  really good at doing what it's designed to do is it's a very efficient makes
• 29:46
  someone very very strong has some great outcomes in bone mineral density the
• 29:51
  reduction osteopenia really important for elderly people cool i still use it
• 29:55
  all the time i'm not I'm not bashing it at all.
• 29:56
  I'm just saying it's quite one dimensional. So when we look at.
• 30:01
  Tissues and i like the kind of therapy and
• 30:04
  the kind of transaction like looking at actually what the
• 30:07
  tissues really need to exist to be healthy what they were naturally made
• 30:10
  for shearing forces the distraction forces the compression
• 30:13
  forces the 360 degree movement the multi-planar activity and we're just talking
• 30:19
  about still biomotor abilities there then think about biodynamics are we covering
• 30:24
  those bases and that's what physical literacy is now it sounds really complicated
• 30:28
  it's not it's giving people confidence to move how they were designed so.
• 30:32
  I like to look at you know can they roll can they do i
• 30:35
  know a forward roll potentially can they balance can they
• 30:39
  walk on different surfaces can they
• 30:42
  get up and down off the ground doing transitions can they
• 30:46
  sit on the ground without cramping for example are they
• 30:49
  able to watch television for five minutes without using the
• 30:52
  couch can they get up out there's office
• 30:54
  chair in different variations of movement
• 30:57
  so adding variety to the movement diet
• 31:00
  is really important in a physical literacy level whereas at
• 31:03
  a more specialized level it's about focusing on macronutrients of
• 31:07
  movement if that makes sense yeah so both is
• 31:10
  important and to the listeners who are thinking god that sounds really
• 31:13
  scary it sounds hectic well
• 31:17
  what i'd ask you to do is you know if you've managed to be able to take a hamstring
• 31:21
  on the couch can we get them off and do some balance work with him can we get
• 31:26
  them off on one leg and look at those basic arabesques you know these things
• 31:30
  are quite basic they can be stabilized quite easily they're working the,
• 31:36
  hamstring function the way the body was designed to move particularly in a not
• 31:39
  even a sport specific mode in a in a movement specific mode most of our walking
• 31:44
  for hamstring you know is is.
• 31:47
  Multi-joint work where we've got negative foot speed i don't
• 31:49
  know whether the listeners be familiar with that but when we plant a foot
• 31:52
  on the ground our hip comes over our foot our foot doesn't go backwards
• 31:55
  so doing things like hamstring curls you know
• 31:58
  it's part of capacity development but it's not that specific to
• 32:02
  the imposed task which might be walking or jogging so you know we're actually
• 32:05
  doing some basic walking or marching drills and adding variability to that and
• 32:09
  giving them elastic and reactive skill sets that will help them rehabilitate
• 32:13
  better towards moving more naturally and that's kind of where i'm at with physical
• 32:18
  literacy is giving the skill sets to move how they'd like to move and given options.
• 32:25
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• 33:30
  So do you think again it depends therapists will operate differently and i mean
• 33:35
  during the attended for example attendance special we're talking about kind of protocols,
• 33:41
  it came up into topic that the guidelines for how
• 33:44
  to treat a tendinopathy wherever it is they're not
• 33:47
  recipes they're not something you should
• 33:50
  follow from step one all the way through i mean all of the
• 33:52
  specialists kind of said they're just kind of guidelines and
• 33:56
  ultimately it depends on the individual in front of you as to
• 33:59
  whether you go start at one or start at three or maybe
• 34:02
  go back to two so but in terms of providing guidelines traditionally
• 34:07
  we kind of think right more isolated restore maybe
• 34:10
  the high load capacity and then maybe move into
• 34:13
  the plyometric or the reactive stage for the tendon and then
• 34:16
  we tend to see end stage rehab where
• 34:19
  the sports or the movement itself let's say a
• 34:22
  runner for example that becomes part of the rehab and you start we
• 34:25
  kind of got this idea the body is then able it's got enough capacity
• 34:29
  with regards to the load and it's got to
• 34:31
  deal with regards to the for example the elastic properties
• 34:35
  of the tendons then we can start using the actual activity itself
• 34:39
  are you kind of suggesting that earlier on in reading up if not from the very
• 34:42
  beginning we should be putting it more into context and making sure that we
• 34:46
  are introducing elements like fun and education and making it more natural i
• 34:51
  guess rather than following this kind of more safe less safe back to sport.
• 34:56
  Wow. That's going to be, yes, is my short answer to that.
• 35:00
  The long answer is this, that I'm absolutely saying that it depends on the severity
• 35:04
  and the acuteness of the injury, of course.
• 35:06
  So if you're in a bleeding and inflammation phase, it's maybe a little bit different,
• 35:09
  but you can work around a lot of injuries.
• 35:11
  So I'd always say we need to be making training rehabilitation fun because that creates adherence.
• 35:16
  But I would encourage arenas to read some of Gerard Mack's work.
• 35:20
  They won't do it. They just can't listen to you. okay this okay jared mack was
• 35:25
  a really in the 70s a really forward-thinking.
• 35:28
  Rehabilitation therapist that worked with charlie francis which is
• 35:31
  ben johnson's coach so for readers that don't
• 35:34
  remember ben johnson first man alive got caught for drugs
• 35:37
  blah blah big massive thing about it and but charlie
• 35:40
  francis was apart from the drug use was well
• 35:44
  ahead of his time a lot of the stuff that he was doing then is
• 35:47
  still only just being unearthed now so what
• 35:50
  they they would do for an athlete that had strained a hamstring
• 35:53
  you know he he would make this argument said if
• 35:56
  someone came down from out of space and said right you're going to rehabilitate that hamstring
• 35:59
  and that person's got to go and do in six
• 36:02
  weeks time a sprint depending on the severity of the
• 36:05
  hamstring or what type of grade of strains and they've
• 36:08
  got to go and run 100 meters in nine seconds
• 36:11
  and we're doing nordic curls i
• 36:14
  mean they weren't called nordic curls then we're just doing some isolatory stuff or
• 36:17
  whatever it was they say they're mad because everything's scalable
• 36:20
  right so actually when you look at the biodynamic similarities of
• 36:24
  sprinting to a Nordic color they're so far different that one
• 36:28
  of the problems with doing that type of work and I think this is I had to dig
• 36:31
  out the evidence on this and forgive me it's just probably I'll say this off
• 36:34
  my off uh memory but I'm not sure and I think it was a paper just recently about
• 36:39
  Nordics and hamstring rehabilitation that actually wasn't that effective it
• 36:43
  actually caused more injuries than.
• 36:45
  It's supported but you look at the a sprint
• 36:49
  for example even a jog how fast that is compared
• 36:52
  to something like an audit
• 36:55
  curl or isolated hamstring work or even just some p
• 36:58
  and f work on the hamstring the the biodynamics are
• 37:00
  so different we haven't prepared someone for putting up
• 37:04
  to four times their body weight through their leg you know if they're jogging maybe
• 37:08
  six seven times their body weight through a leg if they're sprinting you know
• 37:11
  usain bolt puts it through in 0.09 of a
• 37:14
  second that's incredibly fast and we thought some of
• 37:17
  our slowest runners might be doing it less than a second are we really rehabilitating
• 37:23
  that injury are we i mean regression regression to the means a large part there
• 37:27
  we just kind of facilitating like is that scar gonna be that functional so so
• 37:32
  they would have them doing supported walking drills almost immediately.
• 37:38
  Depending on the level, up to grade two, walking drills almost immediately,
• 37:43
  progressing to drill based work, again, depending on the severity,
• 37:47
  progressing to hill based tempo runs, progressing to hill based sprints,
• 37:51
  progressing to short accelerative runs, progressing to controlled distance,
• 37:56
  high velocity runs, progressing to full length runs.
• 38:00
  And that in combination with soft tissue work was a really effective protocol
• 38:05
  that a lot of that sprint program used.
• 38:07
  And I know that some of the guys in the is have started using that to
• 38:10
  great effect and from a biodynamic perspective we think about
• 38:13
  the sequencing of force projection
• 38:16
  like how quickly does it work the type of contractions that are used the type
• 38:21
  of forces that are applied in the type of times and the kinetic chain that's
• 38:26
  used it's much more specific what you don't do is you don't use a completely
• 38:31
  different exercise to rehabilitate you use the exercise itself it's scaled right
• 38:34
  back down in terms of volume intensity,
• 38:36
  right back to the point where they can do it.
• 38:38
  Unless they're completely bedridden, of course, that's not appropriate.
• 38:42
  So yeah, Jared Mack, it's interesting stuff.
• 38:45
  Alvin Meal, who's a really great US Hall of Fame NFL coach, will use that protocol as well.
• 38:53
  I know that James Smith does.
• 38:56
  I'm trying to think of a few others off the top of my head that do it.
• 38:59
  Ian King, well-famous Australian strength and conditioning coach,
• 39:02
  uses that rehab protocol. So from a biodynamic similarity perspective.
• 39:07
  Yeah it's it's interesting but like okay so you
• 39:11
  use the example of a hamstring let's imagine it was a proximal we
• 39:13
  were talking a lot about proximal hamstring assertions in
• 39:16
  the last few episodes because it's a good example of where the
• 39:20
  research suggests that we have to be careful
• 39:23
  for example of combining tensile and compressive loads
• 39:26
  on that tendon at the same time too early on because
• 39:29
  research kind of suggests that the particular
• 39:33
  proximal hamstring tendinopathy that it's not going to appreciate a
• 39:35
  combination of compression and tensile at the same time so the idea
• 39:38
  is we do something like a bridge which yeah it's not
• 39:41
  the same as it's on purpose it's not
• 39:44
  the same as what's happening when you're running because we're taking out the tensile
• 39:47
  load the hip staying at zero degrees there's no kind of
• 39:50
  tensile load on the hamstring but you are putting through some
• 39:52
  load in in terms of a non-tensile load and
• 39:56
  then once pain has gone down we've normally measured by
• 39:58
  that then we might move to something like a nordic curl
• 40:01
  which is then introducing a tensile load on
• 40:04
  the tendon again it's not similar to running but when
• 40:07
  you look at the loads the body's like you said the loads that the hamstring
• 40:10
  is going to have to tolerate when it is running when it's in swing stance and
• 40:14
  the hips flexing and the knee is extending the forces on that hamstring are
• 40:19
  huge then so i kind of i'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here but i think
• 40:23
  in order to progress without putting without going too fast you're going to
• 40:29
  have to make that exercise.
• 40:30
  Non-functional because if you go functional from the beginning you're going
• 40:33
  to expose it's difficult to reduce the forces
• 40:37
  without taking away a little bit of the biomechanics of
• 40:39
  it with the movement of it i mean with walking for example
• 40:42
  yeah you're not getting such a tensile load on
• 40:45
  the hamstring but you're still getting maybe too much for some people if someone
• 40:48
  could have a hamstring injury and walking on the flat that's probably okay but
• 40:53
  if introduced to heel at all that's going to cause pain so they're better off
• 40:56
  on the floor doing a hamstring bridge or something or or doing something like
• 41:00
  that so i'm wondering how functional you can be.
• 41:03
  Early on without it being too provoking yeah so
• 41:07
  uh we're going down a route quite a lot of quite specific you know yeah we're
• 41:12
  not answering questions that's because we don't actually but but yeah there's
• 41:17
  many ways to make that you know if we wanted an accelerated rehab approach to
• 41:21
  that or we just wanted a really good functional development of that now let's let's be
• 41:25
  clear i'm not a professor or a physiotherapy rehab
• 41:28
  here but but there are ways of doing that pull
• 41:31
  the pull would be a classic example of offloading that and
• 41:33
  offloading the tendon really easily side lying in
• 41:37
  supported so i know that great cook does quite
• 41:39
  a cool approach this and his approach is initially that
• 41:43
  supported movement so we find that biodynamically similar movement pattern so
• 41:47
  side lying perhaps taking the leg through the gait cycle totally offloading
• 41:51
  all of it then they go into suspended approach that could be something like
• 41:55
  the pool or that could be something like the alter g gravity treadmill which
• 41:58
  would be very effective remember the,
• 42:01
  kinetic sequencing of the movement most of the hamstring injuries come through well the,
• 42:07
  Just off the top of my head, not remembering the research top of my head a while
• 42:10
  ago, I looked at that. One, dehydration is a massive problem with hamstring injuries.
• 42:14
  The other one is sequencing and timing issue. And it's interesting you mentioned
• 42:18
  proximal hamstring injuries.
• 42:20
  That's where most sprint injuries happen, the proximal head of the hamstring.
• 42:24
  So you have a timing or fatigue issue.
• 42:27
  So if the timing's off, we know that that can cause hamstring tweaks,
• 42:31
  particularly with elite level sprinters. And I used to work with one,
• 42:35
  two, and four sprinters almost exclusively for three or four years.
• 42:38
  And we found that that was one of the major problems.
• 42:40
  A little bit fatigued in training. The hamstring gets tweaked. The timing's off.
• 42:44
  And we would rehabilitate those pretty much exclusively through offloading,
• 42:49
  but using drills as opposed to using traditional rehab protocols,
• 42:54
  which might have used, I don't like to say, a hip bridging.
• 42:57
  And they still work. And I'd still use that alongside because I still think
• 43:01
  there's benefits to improving capacity.
• 43:02
  Thing that's really important it doesn't cause some pain like
• 43:05
  they can flex that hip i mean to do any mark if
• 43:08
  you've got to do an a b or c skip it's going to involve hip
• 43:11
  flexion and some people with a hamstring tendinopathy it
• 43:14
  might not happen when they do it but if within 24 hours they're complaining
• 43:17
  again of tenderness then just flexion of the hip's not going to work so
• 43:20
  you've got to go non-functional but maybe i
• 43:23
  don't know maybe we are being a little bit yeah
• 43:26
  like you say i like the idea of side lying of water so basically
• 43:29
  you're saying that we've really got to make more of
• 43:32
  an effort on keeping it in context because addressing the
• 43:35
  rest of the body we've got to if the body really is going to flourish to
• 43:39
  your work if if if it's the context is
• 43:42
  there even if we're sidelined we're still going to make it as similar as possible
• 43:45
  to the i'm not against any of that stuff in the cute phase at all i don't want
• 43:50
  people to misrepresent me we use that a lot but the problem is when you exclusively
• 43:55
  use that and you chase strength as really the focus long-term wise and then
• 44:00
  we say okay well we're going to do.
• 44:02
  Oh we're going to progress that you know to a deadlift stiff leg deadlift we're
• 44:07
  going to progress that to I don't know some sort of like I don't know.
• 44:12
  Low level plyometric drill. And the problem is by the time you've got that,
• 44:15
  you've gone so far away from your sprinting that the time is completely gone.
• 44:19
  The chance of re-injury is going to be so high.
• 44:21
  And I don't have evidence I could put in front of you apart from having worked
• 44:23
  with hundreds and hundreds and
• 44:25
  hundreds of sprinters and had this problem over and over and over again.
• 44:30
  So yeah, it's just my take on it. Take it or leave it.
• 44:33
  No, no, no. I might just make it with Africa because it's interesting and it makes a lot of sense.
• 44:37
  Because one thing we do know, we've talked about as well, is we've
• 44:40
  talked about various various clinicians and researchers the incidence
• 44:44
  of you know the one of the biggest factors which predicts injury is
• 44:47
  have you been injured before so obviously something we're doing is not working very
• 44:50
  well because whatever we're doing is not really getting there
• 44:52
  and i take that one step further than the fact you know the chance of injury
• 44:57
  and physical activity is based on the lack of physical activity in the physical
• 45:03
  literacy years or the key stage development years which is are so important
• 45:06
  to enhance people's ability to move so prevention is absolutely essential,
• 45:11
  and that well-rounded development of movement skill
• 45:14
  because the problem is you get with an athlete they become so narrowly specialized
• 45:18
  that you ask them to do anything else like we have a you know elite level swimmers
• 45:23
  and ask them to hop on one leg and it's like they've never walked before or
• 45:27
  jumped before well you get a sprinter and you put them in the pool and they
• 45:30
  die you You know, it's quite incredible.
• 45:34
  So, you know, is that sprinter going to be a swimmer when they're older?
• 45:37
  Or are they going to be a swimmer and enjoy the sea, for example?
• 45:42
  Or they can enjoy keeping fit through swimming, which is really...
• 45:46
  Brilliant ways we get older to keep fit probably not
• 45:49
  those tight narrow specialisms are limit
• 45:53
  self-limiting and we chase them so hard that
• 45:56
  we squeeze the juice we squeeze
• 45:59
  it through so hard to get more and more juice out of it it's actually in
• 46:01
  the squeezing that we do damage and the idea is that actually is become
• 46:05
  specialist generalists and focus on a broader skill set
• 46:08
  of capacities and movement skill and particularly
• 46:11
  putting the movement skill back into our condition
• 46:14
  which is really important for me so you know like someone i
• 46:17
  might have said you know i will rehab to rehabilitate a
• 46:20
  hamstring you know grade two
• 46:24
  in the intermediate phase something like that and i would
• 46:26
  have done extensively those types of approaches that
• 46:29
  we talked about before you know some isolatory work some nordic some
• 46:33
  stiff deadlifts some speed skaters hip
• 46:35
  extension based work you don't be sagittal plane
• 46:38
  hip extension i guess great exposure to
• 46:42
  that and i'd probably we do elements of that still now but
• 46:44
  i'd also you know i'd like to see that individual get up from
• 46:47
  the ground without using their hands because that also includes all
• 46:50
  those things but it gives them a skill of movement as well and it increases
• 46:54
  that movement bandwidth so we can make sure that that athlete is being looked
• 46:58
  after but when they retire from the sport as well as in the sport we're giving
• 47:01
  them more bandwidth to help stave off injury through their training and enhance their techniques.
• 47:08
  I like it and it's definitely something which isn't really being done at the
• 47:11
  moment because it's yeah essentially it's not taught is it we're running out
• 47:15
  of time no this is all so valuable i promise you it's just amazing it's gonna be a great episode,
• 47:23
  i like you kind of touched on it before i mean
• 47:26
  one of my biases is i think it was because
• 47:29
  of being a therapist in kind
• 47:32
  of the born to run phase and suddenly everybody saying
• 47:35
  oh barefoot it's natural it's got to be the best way and the whole appeal to
• 47:38
  nature fallacy and stuff and people just taking it the
• 47:41
  wrong way and thinking that anything that's natural has got to be the best thing
• 47:44
  except for tsunamis and kind of poison and
• 47:46
  stuff like that which doesn't really help you so much but i like the
• 47:49
  link you've alluded to here where i think i get it where you promote yourself
• 47:55
  as a natural put it there i think i introduced you as this a natural movement
• 48:01
  when you say natural basically what you're saying is let's just incorporate movements that
• 48:09
  are natural elements, movements like fun.
• 48:13
  Like getting up from the ground.
• 48:15
  So it's not a case of, okay, let's just take off all our clothes,
• 48:18
  run around naked and never wear a shoe again.
• 48:20
  It's not that. Because I think some people see the word natural,
• 48:22
  maybe even by age, and they feel that's what it's going to be.
• 48:25
  It's going to be, you know, I mean, there might be, that might be why individual would be the best.
• 48:30
  No, it's not like, yeah, we're not going to clubs and running around.
• 48:33
  No, it's not. Everyone's got to just eat meat, fertilize and no vegetables.
• 48:37
  Because there are elements of that.
• 48:39
  You've explained it. I think the big thing around, like, you know,
• 48:43
  like club bell training and the functional kind of stuff. Living in that.
• 48:47
  High fingers and all that sort of stuff. No, I don't wear any of that stuff.
• 48:51
  I do spend time, you know, barefoot, maybe because we live on the beach.
• 48:56
  And also, you know, I want to train my foot musculature, just like I do want
• 48:59
  to train my arm musculature. You know, we know that they're proprioceptorily rich.
• 49:03
  Why wouldn't we spend time? It's healthy for our feet to take our shoes off regularly.
• 49:07
  Regularly i think you know i probably i don't
• 49:10
  have a problem with people wearing high heels i just don't want to wear them all the
• 49:12
  time you know let's have variability let's have variation and
• 49:15
  skill set i want people to have the capacity to do both so
• 49:19
  you know we might have the office worker come out the office that can take
• 49:22
  the heels off and go for a run without you know
• 49:24
  getting discomfort or potentially having stiff
• 49:27
  ankles you know that there is a variability and variation
• 49:30
  of movement adaptability is probably
• 49:33
  the right right word the capacity there i don't
• 49:36
  have a problem with people doing loads of strength training
• 49:39
  you know like i used to do but don't do it and the
• 49:41
  sacrifice of a world of other movement
• 49:45
  skills you know for example i'll tell you a story about
• 49:48
  jerome ratoni and this will put my
• 49:51
  point so so jerome studied with erwin lacour you
• 49:54
  know the natural movement guys and i went
• 49:57
  to went to the course that we did it took a long
• 50:00
  time to get through this this course but he said um john you are really strong
• 50:05
  and i said you know i can tell you are really strong i said what would you mean
• 50:10
  how many pull-ups can you do and i and i said oh well you know there's a few
• 50:14
  people looking you know i can do 12 or 13 he goes wow wow.
• 50:20
  He said how much weight can you pull up and go oh you know maybe i can you know
• 50:24
  put up a 20 kilo kettlebell you know oh wow he goes wow you were the strongest
• 50:30
  person here well done he goes okay there is a branch there.
• 50:35
  Double up and i couldn't do one i couldn't rip
• 50:38
  it i couldn't get my weight up on it he goes well done
• 50:41
  you were so strong but you were useless and you
• 50:45
  know the classic sort of french approach and it was a massive alarm
• 50:48
  bell for me is that i was quite strong in
• 50:51
  the conventional sense you know like i
• 50:54
  probably did have good you know strong tendons
• 50:57
  and i've had good bone mineral density all
• 51:00
  the things that modern western research looks at and says you
• 51:02
  know well done you know it's all measurable great he's right
• 51:05
  but you're practically it's pretty useless apart from doing
• 51:08
  a pull-up in the gym so you know if i go on the barbell that's
• 51:11
  got a nice shape to it that's that wide i
• 51:16
  could do that all day long but i could not grab this tree branch and i could
• 51:20
  not climb up and these guys that were nimble as anything which are in muscle
• 51:25
  up so we're just flying up there and i just struggled i was exhausted i can
• 51:28
  i couldn't catch my breath i couldn't do one and it was it was incredibly embarrassing.
• 51:33
  And it kind of really dawned on me that practicality and adaptability in training
• 51:39
  is really, really important.
• 51:42
  You know that being efficient a movement and
• 51:45
  and sort of unspecialized was the bit that i completely neglected all my specialized
• 51:49
  strength training and as as much as i'm not shunning that i still believe it's
• 51:55
  important it is probably the equivalent of jumping out of a boat and hitting
• 51:59
  water the strength training is the low hanging fruit it's easy it's easy to develop.
• 52:04
  The the practical skill sets of being able to interact with environment in a meaningful way
• 52:09
  which is physical literacy is more of
• 52:12
  a journey and that bit is the true
• 52:15
  answer to a physical active lifestyle so you
• 52:19
  know if we go back to what that really means that's can you get
• 52:21
  up and down off the ground regularly without using your hands can you roll can
• 52:24
  you forward roll can we transition between those types of movements can we balance
• 52:30
  can we carry different shaped objects and have the skill sets feel to know how
• 52:36
  to hold them close far away can Can we manipulate those objects?
• 52:39
  Can we carry a person, for example? Are we physical enough to drag a person
• 52:44
  if we needed to or drag our own body weight if we fell off something?
• 52:48
  Are we able to catch, throw, kick? Are we able to swim?
• 52:53
  Are we able to get in a combative situation and not feel too threatened?
• 52:57
  And these practical skill sets have important psychosocial and behavioral and
• 53:03
  cognitive mental health components.
• 53:05
  Because that's what we've done for five million years. Those things I've just mentioned.
• 53:10
  And modern fitness training we've done for less than 100 years.
• 53:14
  In fact, back in the 60s and 70s with the Cooper Institute, jogging and jazz
• 53:20
  aerobics was the predominant fitness trend.
• 53:23
  And we left remedial gymnastics and German gymnastics and Swedish gymnastics,
• 53:29
  which actually was our original physical education system, for cardiovascular training.
• 53:33
  So we've kind of gone from being really natural movers to sort of.
• 53:40
  Renaissance period where we kind of all the
• 53:43
  dark ages where we kind of believed in this dualistic approach
• 53:46
  where the brain the body was separate to the
• 53:50
  renaissance where we started caring a little bit more about health and
• 53:52
  fitness to a period where it was
• 53:55
  a militaristic type approach you know where we had the revolutionary
• 53:59
  in the first world war second world war gymnastics types of
• 54:02
  approaches came out of that particularly german gymnastics the
• 54:05
  british p.e system took on swedish gymnastics which is
• 54:08
  more rhythm based more stand posture move
• 54:12
  arms and then we went to a more aerobic base
• 54:15
  so kind of we lost that movement variability piece that adaptable movement that
• 54:20
  we were evolved for and then that's where we kind of meet this evolutionary
• 54:25
  mismatch mismatch piece that we've talked a lot about before which i won't go
• 54:29
  into too much depth about because we've We've spoken about it,
• 54:32
  but that has important biopsychosocial consequences.
• 54:36
  And we aren't getting the tissue variability, the mannacana transduction.
• 54:41
  That's really, really important.
• 54:43
  If we are bench pressing a lot, we're compressing in one plane of motion.
• 54:48
  That's not good movement variety.
• 54:51
  It's also not giving us variability of skill set either. It's making us better
• 54:56
  at pushing something off our chest. It's wonderful for bone mineral density
• 55:00
  and wonderful if you're a jiu-jitsu athlete pushing someone off your chest as
• 55:04
  a primary skill component.
• 55:06
  It may have a secondary component from a neural amplitude component from a brain
• 55:13
  perspective, getting more amplitude of signal coming out, efferent signal coming out.
• 55:18
  But from a skill transfer perspective very very little and as snc coaches i
• 55:22
  think we have to be a bit more accountable to how much that type of work really
• 55:26
  makes a difference on the pitch on the track.
• 55:29
  Same with actually squats you know they're efficient at developing a
• 55:32
  motor skill which is maximal strength development but do
• 55:36
  they transfer into real life do they actually transfer into sport
• 55:39
  and it comes back to argument is those people have
• 55:42
  already really well adapted to the sports they don't
• 55:45
  adapt anymore by doing the same thing over and over again so you have
• 55:47
  to try something different to get secondary impact from right that's
• 55:51
  why we use the best systems in the world for
• 55:53
  strength development we use those power lifts but for
• 55:57
  your every joe blogs who isn't an elite level
• 56:00
  sprinter that needs to develop a more well-rounded
• 56:03
  base of movement and that wouldn't be the road that i'd go down
• 56:06
  now well being i wouldn't totally neglect it
• 56:09
  there'll be a lot of of other things i look at as well so the macronutrients
• 56:12
  of movement we just don't look at protein fats and carbs in
• 56:15
  our diet we also have micronutrients as well and sometimes
• 56:18
  in fitness and rehab we focus on those macronutrients which like strength power
• 56:23
  and also the bioenergetic so get more aerobic development but they're all isolationary
• 56:29
  how they link to the micronutrients of movement which is skill set motor learning
• 56:32
  practical adaptable physical literacy skill sets so it's blending the two together.
• 56:38
  A lot of what you said earlier on it struck me and
• 56:42
  again it's often what we should be doing sounds obvious when
• 56:45
  you sit around with a cup of tea and start discussing it but a lot
• 56:48
  of the things you discuss is how children learn the skills
• 56:50
  they develop children don't do squats they'll give each other piggyback rides
• 56:54
  they'll fall over they'll stand up at awkward angles you know
• 56:56
  they'll take something a bit too heavy and they'll decide not to then they'll take you
• 56:59
  know it's like challenging themselves playing making it
• 57:02
  kind of like goal orientated in terms of
• 57:05
  fun so maybe a lot of what you've talked about is
• 57:08
  just allowing adults to train
• 57:11
  more as kids and doing those sort of things i think you've got
• 57:14
  the motor learning piece matt and then there's the the
• 57:17
  physical element of what you include in your training
• 57:20
  menu the the how we
• 57:23
  learn piece is really important i'm quite you know i
• 57:26
  quite like keith davis's work on motor learning
• 57:30
  where he talks a lot about dynamic systems and constraints-based
• 57:33
  learning which is really worth having a look at andrew
• 57:37
  ugly's work on motor learning is really
• 57:39
  really good to look at but yeah my approach probably is you know if we look
• 57:43
  at using that's a really nice analogy i think we've talked about that before
• 57:47
  haven't we your children aren't taught to move they learn they learn because
• 57:52
  they can't speak english and understand their environment is safe but there's
• 57:56
  obstacles in their environments They adapt to the environment,
• 57:58
  which is a constraint-based dynamic systems approach where we make it fun and
• 58:03
  engaging for them. We facilitate movement.
• 58:05
  We don't dictate movement because we can't dictate movement.
• 58:08
  But that software they're born with exists in all of us.
• 58:11
  For some of us, we need to de-rust it a little bit.
• 58:14
  But movement through play and joy and fun is absolutely the environment we want
• 58:18
  to create to allow people to flourish optimally.
• 58:22
  Yeah, so the motor learning control piece is essential to that.
• 58:26
  So, yeah, Keith Davis is kind of a cool stuff to work on that.
• 58:30
  You've mentioned a lot of names, but what I'm interested in,
• 58:33
  I know the listeners will be interested in this. We don't want any Keith Davis
• 58:35
  or any of these other people.
• 58:36
  We just want you, John, to come and show us this stuff.
• 58:39
  Have you got any plans to do any courses?
• 58:44
  I hope you get a therapy expert. We'll try and get you doing some practical stuff.
• 58:47
  It'd be great. but anything in the pipeline you can talk about
• 58:50
  which is gonna which people can go along to actually do and start doing this
• 58:54
  learning yeah so so i'm in a quite unique position where i've kind of straddled
• 58:59
  the snc world the the movement world which is kind of slightly different from
• 59:04
  the snc world and the therapy world and i don't think there's many people have really done that.
• 59:09
  So i have developed a
• 59:13
  course good day by day
• 59:16
  which i am hoping to have
• 59:19
  live in the new year and it's a
• 59:21
  comprehensive movement therapy based course which
• 59:25
  combines all the learning from the s and c is that a
• 59:28
  lot of what i talked about today will be in there and kind of quite tidy
• 59:32
  snippets a little bit less than my rambling save forgive me
• 59:35
  listeners i tend to go off on one um but trying to kind
• 59:38
  of wrestle with all that and put it into a system that's really
• 59:41
  operational so there'll be theoretical elements which will be done online i'm
• 59:45
  stuck in jersey so you know flying out isn't always an option for me but i do
• 59:50
  want to deliver practically because the other side is you know my big skill
• 59:54
  sets and the practical development and making operational so yeah a hybrid course.
• 59:59
  Which probably will be six to twelve months in duration but you'll be able to buy sections of it,
• 1:00:04
  good so if you wanted to look at the evolution
• 1:00:08
  of movement for example if you want to look at that we want to look at
• 1:00:10
  motor learning you could take those sections from it
• 1:00:13
  and just do those bits or you could do it all and there'll
• 1:00:16
  be a certificate at the end yeah all right so you
• 1:00:19
  reckon you'll will people go to jersey to do it or do you travel
• 1:00:22
  out jersey and do a few locations in the uk or i think as
• 1:00:25
  much as i think people come here we could do it here no i'm
• 1:00:27
  going to be doing it in the uk and hopefully some people interested
• 1:00:30
  in doing it further afield so there's a few there's quite a bit of
• 1:00:33
  interest in that i am yeah yeah it seems again
• 1:00:36
  seems down that great because people are
• 1:00:39
  listening to you i think you've done very well tonight i think you're very
• 1:00:41
  controlled you've been coming across as going on at all but i think part of
• 1:00:45
  the attraction i think met you in person and hopefully people can feel this
• 1:00:49
  from the way you explain things as you are very passionate about you're a great
• 1:00:52
  educator it's very exciting to be in your presence and because you use it as
• 1:00:56
  you're talking about it and your dynamic and moving and discussing things that would be great to.
• 1:01:01
  Uh for people to have that opportunity um you're
• 1:01:03
  going to come to therapy expo we've still got to sort out you're going to
• 1:01:06
  be in the hands on hub hopefully with anna maria maxieri as well because you
• 1:01:09
  did do the level five soft tissue therapy with
• 1:01:12
  anna maria maxieri as well just because you were interested in
• 1:01:15
  that world as well weren't you such a eternal learner
• 1:01:18
  yeah for me the movement piece i
• 1:01:21
  don't actually necessarily look at it as a soft tissue therapist or
• 1:01:24
  physiotherapist or strength coach i look at as a movement specialist and
• 1:01:28
  you know that that is the fundamental if we
• 1:01:31
  get the fundamentals of movement actually you can operate in all
• 1:01:34
  those fields but i want to make sure that i'm properly qualified that i've got
• 1:01:38
  appropriate background and literature and research and i know it's a wonderful
• 1:01:41
  course and and i'm so passionate as well and incredibly evidence-based and i'm
• 1:01:46
  bringing some of the things that anna has taught me will massively simply compliment
• 1:01:50
  that and it would join up a little bit and that was a bit i was missing so,
• 1:01:53
  yeah this is going to be cool i should say just just before we leave what i'd
• 1:01:57
  like the listeners to do is just look at their practice every day and say how
• 1:02:02
  did i learn that am i just accepting,
• 1:02:04
  the current system or if i was going to ask my child to design this rehab program.
• 1:02:10
  With a design like this one, there's a famous quote from Charlie Francis that
• 1:02:13
  I'll just leave everyone with is, look at the player, not the game.
• 1:02:17
  And that game relates to, if we're watching a game of rugby, the game is rugby.
• 1:02:20
  If we're looking at a rehab protocol, try to remove yourself from the current
• 1:02:26
  ways that we've accepted that everyone else has done.
• 1:02:29
  And that's what we've copied is if you were going to develop yourself,
• 1:02:31
  is that the way that you would generally do it?
• 1:02:34
  And then when you look at the player, if we're looking at the game of rugby,
• 1:02:36
  how does that player actually move? Is it fast? Is it slow?
• 1:02:40
  Is it cutting? Is it what type of energy systems do they use?
• 1:02:44
  Classic one with rugby that people look at, they do loads of lactic work.
• 1:02:48
  Rugby is an alactic aerobic sport predominantly, but yet we hammer them with
• 1:02:51
  lactic loads and we wonder why they tweak the hamstrings or why they tweak their
• 1:02:55
  groins. It's just inappropriate loading.
• 1:02:57
  And let's just step back from it. Forget about everything we know about rugby
• 1:03:00
  because we know very little about it. Forget everything we know about football,
• 1:03:02
  we know very little about it.
• 1:03:03
  Remember in the absolute infancy of rehab, in the absolute infancy of physical preparation and S&C,
• 1:03:09
  and just step back from it if you knew nothing and it was you coming out of
• 1:03:13
  school you asked your child to do it or an alien coming out from outer space
• 1:03:15
  how would they program it and just have a go without anyone looking on the back
• 1:03:20
  of a piece of paper how would we rehab that hamstring,
• 1:03:22
  that would be really interesting and try just to forget all the conventional
• 1:03:26
  wisdom there's a really great saying it's it's no measure of success to be well
• 1:03:30
  adapted to a sick society.
• 1:03:33
  Very nice did you just hear that pen drop that
• 1:03:36
  was the equivalent of a mic drop if you heard that on
• 1:03:38
  the podcast then there's there's like a mic drop very nice
• 1:03:41
  we'll like that amazing great so
• 1:03:44
  if people are interested i'll just bring up for people watching on
• 1:03:48
  youtube i have got a screenshot of the website here let's put it on full so
• 1:03:52
  people see it and so we're movewell.je with the je standing for jersey and natural
• 1:03:59
  movement to rehabilitation so if people want to keep in contact you and want
• 1:04:02
  to be notified about these plans you've got for the course is there somewhere
• 1:04:05
  they can sign up on there now or email you or.
• 1:04:08
  There's i think there's a you know i need to be better on the website there's
• 1:04:11
  a newsletter on there but i would say you know follow the social
• 1:04:14
  media stuff so uh instagram and facebook and
• 1:04:17
  my kind of main portals and yeah the
• 1:04:20
  website will be updated as and when those things come live but
• 1:04:23
  uh yeah we've got a good skeleton for the course now and i think
• 1:04:26
  if i was a practitioner looking keep this starting my journey that's probably
• 1:04:29
  where i want to start i'm excited oh no it's from knowing the
• 1:04:32
  short time we've known each other face to face i'm very
• 1:04:34
  excited by it's going to be very cool so on
• 1:04:37
  facebook people look up moveworld.je it'll take
• 1:04:40
  you there or you can also look up movewell natural women do rotation both of
• 1:04:43
  them will take you to the facebook page then there is an instagram one which
• 1:04:47
  is at movewell jersey or one word um so yeah people that's where you can follow
• 1:04:51
  john scriven is scriven isn't it not scriven always For some reason, I keep thinking Scrum.
• 1:04:58
  I don't know why. It feels wrong. But anyway, naturally it feels wrong,
• 1:05:03
  but you can't always trust nature.
• 1:05:06
  But anyway, fantastic. Thanks, John. I'm sorry that people couldn't join.
• 1:05:10
  If you are listening to the podcast and you weren't able to watch this live
• 1:05:12
  on YouTube, it's a software issue. I don't know if Gremlin's in the system.
• 1:05:15
  I will find out, but hopefully now you've managed to listen to the podcast or
• 1:05:19
  watch the recording on YouTube, which I will stitch together seamlessly.
• 1:05:22
  You won't even know there's anything playing around. in the system. So.
• 1:05:26
  Next tuesday at nine o'clock you are listening
• 1:05:29
  to this or watching this it's going to be an hour later because my guest
• 1:05:32
  stephen king is once again from australia i don't
• 1:05:34
  know what it's about australia this month but or last month in
• 1:05:37
  this month uh but yeah it's the part two i'm moving special with stephen king
• 1:05:41
  of mat assessment or matt assessment.com where matt stands for movement assessment
• 1:05:45
  technologies uh that's gonna be a great episode very excited to talk to stephen
• 1:05:49
  then if you want to join us just head on to youtube and hopefully it'll be working
• 1:05:52
  by then or if you prefer go along to the Sports Therapy Association Facebook
• 1:05:55
  page and we will join you then.
• 1:05:57
  But for now, normally I would thank everyone who's joined us live.
• 1:06:00
  It's been good to meet you, John.
• 1:06:01
  It's been good to meet you. It's strange, it's been very strange not having
• 1:06:04
  anybody asking questions. But anyway, thank you, John, for your time once again.
• 1:06:09
  And I look forward to seeing you in November at Therapy Expert this year,
• 1:06:14
  whether it's in the Hands of Harbour or the STA Theatre.
• 1:06:15
  Hopefully both will be great to see you spreading your good word in person. Thank you very much.
• 1:06:21
  Everybody else is listening to the podcast uh do us a favor please
• 1:06:24
  just leave a review take a minute out of your busy
• 1:06:27
  schedules to yeah just leave a
• 1:06:29
  review i'll make it easy for you just put five stars don't think about it write
• 1:06:33
  something very nice because it just helps us get out to more
• 1:06:36
  people the good word of our guests get out more people want a
• 1:06:39
  little bit of a rise you know i'm happy to say we're going up again
• 1:06:41
  which is nice in the world but to make a big difference to take us to
• 1:06:44
  more downloads it's just really you guys sharing it
• 1:06:47
  on your social media feeds leaving in that review it really will help our industry
• 1:06:51
  essentially you are you're going to help our industry more than anyone more
• 1:06:55
  than me more than john it's you sharing the good words of our podcast which
• 1:06:58
  will help so please please do that that's it take care people and hopefully
• 1:07:01
  we will see some of you next tuesday at nine o'clock uk time bye.
• 1:07:06
  Music.