Latest / UK Column Radio / Michael Rectenwald on Free Speech and the Death of Academia | Jerm Warfare

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Michael Rectenwald on Free Speech and the Death of Academia | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:30
My name is Jim. This is Jim.
0:31
Warfare, The Battle of ideas. Yeah.
0:35
Have you been to my side of the pond or have you been to the
0:37
African continent? No.
0:41
You really should. It's a different experience all
0:43
together. Yeah, it's amazing.
0:44
I. Think I would like to go there.
0:46
I certainly wouldn't want to go to Israel.
0:47
I'll I'll definitely would love to go to Africa I.
0:55
Love how you just inserted that. Yeah, well, Michael Rectenwald,
1:02
I was just saying to you now, before we began recording, you
1:06
were on my podcast about five years ago, just as the madness
1:10
began. Would you go back to 2019 if you
1:15
could? 2019 and that's when I retired
1:18
from NYU, but it was 2016 when the real fireworks began over
1:24
there with the with you know, when I when I did an interview
1:30
with the student newspaper about the social justice or what now
1:35
is called woke excesses, as it were.
1:39
And and that started my acceleration to leave NYU, which
1:46
happened by 2019. I sued NYU for libel and black
1:53
op defamation of several professors who libeled and blast
1:59
basically defamed me on e-mail to the whole NYU list.
2:07
So yeah, I mean. And this was what happened.
2:12
With the lawsuit, well, we settled.
2:17
So Wikipedia says that it was dismissed, but it's that's not
2:21
true. They settled with me.
2:23
I got a cash settlement and I had, I basically retired in good
2:26
standing and I had, I still have access.
2:31
I got all the retirement benefits, including healthcare
2:37
and also access to all of NY US electronic stuff.
2:42
So I'm still effectively like a retired faculty member from NYU.
2:47
Your timing was good though, because if you had stayed into
2:51
2020 they would have had a really good excuse to get rid of
2:54
you. Oh, yeah, Because they would
2:56
have tried to force the vaccine on me.
2:58
They would have made me abide by the mass mandates.
3:01
And I would. I wouldn't have done it.
3:03
So it came early enough that I got out of there before COVID,
3:08
thank goodness, because New York was a hellhole at that time and
3:13
it is now again as well. But yeah, I mean, that whole
3:17
history is kind of I, I basically rehearsed that
3:21
hundreds of times. You know what happened?
3:24
I criticized social justice on in a, in an interview and they
3:31
forced me into a leave of absence, removed my, removed me
3:37
from campus. This was all just for
3:40
criticizing the excesses of social justice activism and
3:46
policy on on campus. And you know, it's bad when
3:52
somebody like Andrew Doyle, who's gay, has to criticize it.
3:57
That's true. Or my Milo Yiannopoulos, for
4:00
that matter. Oh yes, you know, I I kind of
4:05
look back to that late 20 teens with great fondness.
4:09
It was a good era of culture wars.
4:11
Yes, it was. And that's that's what really
4:13
precipitated NYU to settle with me, is when I invited Milo into
4:21
one of my classes to speak on Halloween and the mayor of New
4:27
York supposedly shut down my classroom.
4:30
My classroom was 14 students because they said it was a of a
4:36
danger to the community. So that's how NYU got around
4:42
violating my academic freedom, which is just a complete
4:47
misnomer. There is no such thing.
4:51
What do you think's happened to academia?
4:58
It's been subverted and it's been under, you know, for the
5:07
most part, there are certain, you know, certain schools or
5:11
certain and certain disciplines that haven't been too badly
5:16
affected. Some of the sciences have been
5:20
exempt from a lot of this, but it's just been nothing but a
5:26
social justice crusade that began probably in the 1920s and
5:32
just accelerated when Trump ran for office.
5:36
That's when it really became intolerable because the, the
5:41
campuses started to throw, you know, cancel speakers, institute
5:46
bias reporting hotlines, institute safe spaces and so on
5:53
and so forth. And made, you know, tried to
5:55
make me put a bias reporting hotline number on my syllabus,
5:59
which I refuse to do. I'm trying to think how far back
6:06
this nonsense goes. I I mean, I know in the 80s they
6:12
sort of invented the idea that black people can't be racist.
6:15
What do they call a critical theory or critical race theory?
6:19
Critical race theory, Yeah. And I mean, I don't remember the
6:23
term transgender ever being used up until what, the late 20 teens
6:29
or something? Well, yeah, I think it was you.
6:32
You basically referred to people's transvestites before
6:36
that. And then the transgender
6:38
movement, which is funded by billionaires, OK.
6:43
They, they funded this movement in order to, I think, subvert
6:49
the family. The idea there, if you don't
6:51
have man and woman, you don't have husband and wife, and
6:54
without husband and wife, you don't have husband and wife and
6:56
child. So you get rid of the family
6:59
unit. Of course, that was one of the
7:00
10 prongs of the Communist Manifesto, abolition of the
7:04
family. They just did it by different
7:09
means. Yes, it's funny you mention that
7:12
because you were a Marxist for the longest time.
7:17
Yeah, yeah. And then whenever they came
7:21
after me and I realized what a totalitarian ideology it was and
7:26
how if you crush individual rights, you have nothing.
7:31
There's no collective well-being or collective good or common
7:35
good when individuals and their rights are destroyed.
7:39
So I became a libertarian almost overnight.
7:42
And then I started to get into libertarian theory and I became,
7:48
you know, I was a civil libertarian at first, let's put
7:51
it that way. And then I became a full-fledged
7:52
economic political libertarian. And by the way, I ran for
7:56
president, as you know, I ran to for the nomination of the
8:00
Libertarian Party, which I almost won.
8:03
I won. I won five times, but I won five
8:08
times. But you have to reach 50% and
8:11
then, you know, somebody threw their support to another guy at
8:15
the very end. Wouldn't he had promised to
8:17
support me for six months. So I was basically sold out.
8:22
I think Trump had something to do with it because Trump could
8:25
not afford to lose any right leaning votes.
8:29
And what they did, I was the right leaning libertarian or
8:35
right libertarian, and they didn't want me in the race.
8:39
So I believe they paid off this guy to throw his support to
8:46
basically this guy, Chase Oliver, who's basically nothing
8:50
but a Trojan horse for LGBTQIA plus plus activism.
8:55
That's all he did after he won was go to pride parades.
9:00
So that's what they think libertarianism is, the freedom
9:05
to cut off your penis. You know, that's basically what
9:08
it comes down to for these people.
9:11
What is libertarianism? Well, it is for me, it is the
9:19
the first principle is the non aggression principle naturally.
9:23
That is you cannot aggress against somebody's person or
9:26
property. And and the second principle for
9:33
me is basically is anti statism. The state is the biggest enemy
9:38
to liberty. I've flirted with various
9:43
aspects, I suppose, of libertarianism for, I don't
9:47
know, decade or more. I mean, I've read Rothbard and
9:51
Mises and Hayek and I, I think my gateway, my gateway was
9:57
Milton Friedman. Oh yeah?
9:59
Well, that's a gateway drug. Yeah.
10:02
The real terminus, the real terminus of this line of
10:06
thinking from Mises to Rothbard is Hans Herman Hapa.
10:11
Oh. Yes, he's great.
10:13
Democracy. The God that failed.
10:15
Yes, excellent book and I thought his analysis of certain
10:22
things are incredibly good. He revised the whole theory of
10:28
class warfare, class struggle, by the way, and said, you know,
10:32
Marx was right. The history of humanity is the
10:35
history of class struggle. But the ruling class is not the
10:39
capitalist class per SE. It is the state and all of its
10:43
beneficiaries. And I think that's absolutely
10:46
true. If it wasn't for the state, you
10:50
couldn't have the kind of monopolies that we have, the
10:52
kind of crony capitalism that we have.
10:56
You know, we don't have capitalism at all.
10:59
We don't have freedom, free markets.
11:01
We have state controlled profiteering effectively.
11:06
Well, Hanselman pretty much converted me away from democracy
11:11
to monarchy. The thing with monarchy is that
11:15
it's, as he argues, it's the ultimate private property.
11:20
Yeah, that's correct. The state itself becomes private
11:23
property owned by the King or Queen.
11:27
And also there the time preference of of of monarchs is
11:33
much lower than that of the, you know, democratically elected or
11:39
installed figures. It is A and that in the case of
11:47
democracy so-called, you get people in there that have a very
11:52
high time preference and they don't care about spending money,
11:56
they don't care about long term projects because their term is
12:00
short. So they're going to benefit
12:02
themselves and their and their buddies as quickly as possible
12:06
and pillage the state and the resources for their friends.
12:12
Which brings hopefully brings us to the main topic here.
12:16
Well, I mean, yes, I was kind of segwaying towards what happened
12:21
in 2020 because this was pretty much the event that, well, other
12:26
than that, that World War Two event that we aren't allowed to
12:28
speak about, 2020 was pretty much the event that redefined
12:34
the modern era. Yeah, yeah.
12:37
The COVID crisis, which was a elite driven superimposition of
12:46
tyranny on the pretext of a global health crisis which they
12:53
started. Yeah.
12:56
So in other words, you can count on them to create the problem,
13:03
then 'cause the react, you know, the response, like, oh, we're
13:06
all afraid. And then come along with the
13:09
solution. This is the Hegelian dialectic
13:12
in in operation. Then come along with the
13:14
solution, which is always worse than the problem.
13:17
And the solution was, you know, a totalitarian lockdown state
13:24
with, you know, you know, with surveillance and, and, and what
13:28
have you. And it's gotten worse even after
13:31
COVID. I think so.
13:35
COVID was an interesting era, though.
13:38
I mean, I don't think it's over. I think it was a placeholder in
13:41
many ways, but it's certainly forced a lot of people to
13:46
rethink everything they think they know about everything.
13:50
Yes, I think that's true. People started to realize got a
13:56
couple things, 11 is there's a class of people that want us
14:01
dead or utterly in chains in effect, and then that the state
14:08
is not your friend, it's actually your enemy.
14:12
And that a good deal of the population will go along with
14:17
this and becomes Sentinels of the state, becoming Sentinels or
14:24
surveillance and and they will become agents of the state in in
14:28
in fact, they will be part of what you know, Havel called post
14:37
totalitarianism. Vaclav Havel Havel.
14:42
One of my guests, she spent, oh, I don't know the the greater
14:49
part of the last six years looking into the hospital data
14:53
just of New York. And she started out by trying to
14:58
figure out, you know, what was going on as we were all trying
15:02
to figure out at the time. And she said to me, she said to
15:05
me, I started out looking at at New York's hospital data and I
15:10
ended up questioning whether we landed on the moon.
15:14
That's that's why don't you go down these rabbit holes.
15:18
A lot of things start to come under scrutiny, of course, and
15:21
you become skeptical of all the official narratives.
15:25
And it's, I think the best, the best demarcation device is this.
15:34
If if the official narrative, whatever the official narrative
15:38
is, is your best bet is to say they that the opposite is true,
15:46
because effectively they're always pushing the inverse of
15:49
truth. Who's it now that referred to it
15:53
as a cathedral? I'm thinking I've gone blank.
15:56
He refers to government plus media plus.
15:59
Manches Goldbug. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:01
Manches Goldbug. There we go.
16:03
What's his real name? Yeah.
16:04
So I was reading that Dark Enlightenment stuff many years
16:08
ago and basically the establishment would be the
16:12
government plus media, plus academia.
16:16
Yeah, that's right. Although, yeah, Curtis Yarvin is
16:20
the name Curtis Yarvin. Thank you.
16:23
Yeah, Curtis Yarvin. Yeah, the cathedral is the
16:28
academic. He's academia.
16:30
He calls like the cathedral. It is the, you know, postmodern
16:35
equivalent of, of the, of the papacy of you know, so or
16:42
papacy, however you want to say it.
16:45
And the academics are effectively, you know, what they
16:51
do is issue statements that are treated ex cathedral.
16:57
They are treated like, you know, papal edicts, as it were.
17:04
And then the media is kind of like the, it's kind of the
17:10
intermediary between academia and the unwashed, as it were,
17:15
the the public and they, you know, they, they metastasize
17:23
the, the cathedrals findings and holdings to the broader public.
17:30
But I mean, that's very true. I mean, look how people
17:34
metaphorically worshipped Fauci. You know, he would go on TV and
17:40
say safe and effective, and they would throw out these
17:42
catchphrases and people would just repeat them like it was a
17:45
cult. Yeah, yeah.
17:48
I mean, people just bought into it entirely.
17:50
And then they coined this thing called the science, which was
17:54
the opposite of science because science is open inquiry and,
17:59
and, and debate and, and contestation.
18:03
But they wanted to eliminate that and say science is well,
18:06
what did what did Falchi say? I am, I am science.
18:11
He said. I am science.
18:13
Unbelievable. Nothing like that has ever
18:16
happened in the history of science.
18:18
And I am a historian of science. And I can tell you that that's a
18:21
first. I am science.
18:23
I. Mean, just for clarity, what is
18:26
science? Science is the experimental
18:31
testing of empirical data or the derivative deriving of empirical
18:38
data to approach truth. But it never reaches it wholly.
18:47
It is always asymptotic. It it's always approaching but
18:51
never reaching. So science is always the
18:55
findings of science are always provisional because further
18:59
investigations and explorations and discoveries can always
19:04
change the findings and therefore the conclusions that
19:07
science draws. So science is an asymptotic
19:11
approach to truth. I'll say that I think that's
19:14
I'll coin that science is the asymptotic approach to truth.
19:20
But I mean, this is precisely what the Great Reset's all
19:23
about, or Agenda 20 or Build back Beta or whatever the catch
19:26
phrases are that they all mean the same thing.
19:29
It's about replacing critical thinking with sort of a cult
19:35
like dogmatic approach to the science.
19:38
And if you question it, you're a science denier.
19:42
Yeah, and climate science is the is the big one.
19:48
I think that the COVID thing was like a test run to see how
19:51
people would respond to climate lockdowns and climate
19:55
curtailment of of freedoms like freedom of mobility.
20:02
And of course, all this is being introduced and executed at the
20:06
local level where it has to be in order to function.
20:09
And so you're seeing cities in the United States and elsewhere,
20:13
I'm sure in Great Britain. I don't know about Africa, but.
20:17
Where they're basically moving toward the 15 city, 15 minute
20:21
city model where you're supposed to not go outside the periphery
20:26
of this 1515 minutes city where you can get to by public
20:31
transportation, bicycle or walking within 15 minutes.
20:36
And they're trying to restrict automobile traffic.
20:39
They've, they've ruined the streets in this city where I
20:42
live, Pittsburgh, by making all these bike lanes where nobody
20:46
rides bikes, trying to make it more difficult to drive.
20:51
And you know, in, in, in Great Britain, they have zones where
20:55
you can't drive, you know, at all at certain times I, I forget
21:00
exactly the details, but they restrict driving in particular
21:04
zones in, in the UK, like in London and so forth.
21:09
So Agenda 2030, the Great Reset, They're effectively the same
21:15
thing. It is the The Great Reset is
21:18
merely the World Economics forums.
21:26
Implementation is the word I'm looking for.
21:28
Implementation of Agenda 2030 through corporate stakeholder
21:34
capitalism. Yeah, there you see.
21:37
There we go. That is, that's the hook,
21:40
because people get caught up in that false dichotomy of, well,
21:44
it's either communist or it's capitalist.
21:45
But that's the beauty of the technocratic system.
21:49
It merges the state and private private companies.
21:55
Yes, it's economic fascism, and that's what stakeholder
22:00
capitalism is. It is this idea that
22:03
corporations will do the work that states were unable or
22:09
unwilling to do, and that is it will using the ESG scores it or
22:16
what they call whatever they're calling it now, it will restrict
22:21
certain production so as to restrict certain consumption
22:28
along the lines according to, you know, these green
22:32
imperatives. And it's also a monopoly scheme
22:37
for these corporations because they drive out all competitors
22:40
this way if you don't. And it's all done through
22:44
basically Black Rock State Street.
22:48
Vanguard. And all those.
22:50
Yeah. And those three top asset
22:52
managers who basically determine who gets, you know, who, whose
22:57
stocks are going to be purchased, who's going to get
22:59
capital infusions. And if they don't abide by the
23:04
ESG, they're going to lose capital infusions.
23:07
And of course, now Larry Fink is not only the, is not only the
23:14
CEO of BlackRock, he's also now the chair of the World Economic
23:18
Forum. I mean, we already knew he was
23:20
running it. I mean this.
23:21
Coincidence. This is coincidence.
23:25
He's officially running it now. It, it's, it's unbelievable.
23:29
So I, I, I argued, you know, way back that actually Larry Fink
23:32
was the operative driving figure because he was on the board of
23:37
the WEF, but now he's the chairman.
23:39
So that that BlackRock is really the driving force of the Great
23:44
Reset. And I mean, Speaking of wolves
23:50
in sheep's clothing, this is what the World Economic Forum
23:53
and NGOs are in many ways, because people look at them as
23:57
these innocent structures. Yeah, they're supposedly
24:00
humanitarian or, you know, environmentalists or, you know,
24:07
immigration friendly and all that.
24:11
But they're actually accelerating the technocratic,
24:18
the imposition of the technocratic state, which will
24:22
be in the United States and probably everywhere else under a
24:26
Palantir panopticon where which confuses AI and facial
24:35
recognition and a number of other, I don't know what else,
24:42
all the technologies that go into Palantir, but Palantir is,
24:46
is the big panopticon that's being erected.
24:50
Well, I mean, Palantir is a great example of state
24:52
capitalism or stakeholder capitalism.
24:56
It's a public private partnership.
24:57
I mean, they're a private company that work hand in hand
25:00
with the with the state. Yes, they got the big contracts
25:03
from the state. Trump handed them one early in
25:06
his the second term here and now they're they're, they're
25:11
actually getting most of their money from state and also from
25:14
Israel. They also use the Palantir in,
25:19
in, in Gaza. And that's part of the, the way
25:23
they, you know, use the facial recognition AI and so forth to
25:27
locate people and to imprison and so forth and kill them.
25:31
So. This is precisely the end game
25:34
though. Yeah, Oh, absolutely.
25:40
Yeah. The end game is you owe nothing
25:45
and be happy and you'll be on your total surveillance.
25:49
Your speech rights will be curtailed.
25:52
You may not even your thought thought rights.
25:55
Really we should start talking about thought rights because.
25:58
Well, I mean, you've all, you've all Harare said that you said
26:01
that humans will become hackable.
26:03
Yes, totally hackable beings. There is no such thing as free
26:07
will, he said. It's a complete mess.
26:09
And we, we can hack you with any, you know, you can be hacked
26:13
and they can, can take over your brain.
26:16
This is what I wrote about in my novel Thought Criminal.
26:20
I don't know if you've seen that, but the premise, yeah,
26:24
yeah. The premise there is that they
26:26
use nanobots to take over the neocortex, which is not I.
26:33
Like how you call it a novel because?
26:39
I called it a novel because I didn't want it to be called
26:44
conspiracy theory. That's.
26:49
It it's like calling the Matrix a movie.
26:53
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
26:56
I called it a novel because I didn't want to be dubbed.
26:58
You know, I was trying to find ways to fight back against the
27:02
COVID regime and trying to counter the propaganda and
27:07
essays and stuff like that. But I found that the best way to
27:10
get some of these things across is actually through analogy,
27:14
which fiction really is. It's analogy like this is to the
27:20
present as that is to the present in the novel.
27:24
So it allows people to extrapolate much more easily
27:28
about what's happening now. Yeah, but, but I mean, the term
27:33
conspiracy theorist is kind of like being called a racist or a
27:37
homophobe, whatever. It's it's a label that that that
27:40
has lost its meaning. Conspiracy.
27:42
I mean, most people don't know. How does weaponize by the CIA
27:47
back after the JFK assassination?
27:49
Yeah. The CIA weaponized it.
27:51
But you know who really started this whole Pooh poohing of
27:55
conspiracy theory was Karl Popper in his book The Open
27:58
Society and Its Enemies in 1944. And he he called it the
28:05
conspiracy theory of society, which was a straw man because he
28:10
suggested that conspiracy theories claim that all events
28:15
can be attributed to conspiracies by conspirators.
28:19
But nobody, nobody that's a conspiracy theorist, so-called,
28:23
is saying all events are determined that just saying that
28:26
there are conspiracies and there are and, and, and a conspiracy
28:32
theorist is somebody that theorizes about a conspiracy
28:35
and, or, and they're, you know, so it's a real weaponized term
28:42
used to dismiss people. And I've written an essay called
28:45
the epistemological Status of Conspiracy theory.
28:48
Epistemologically, A conspiracy theory should not be discounted
28:53
automatically for being a conspiracy theory.
28:56
Period. But I mean, if you just think
28:59
about it for 10 seconds, it's so stupid because when someone says
29:03
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, all right, I mean, what are they
29:06
saying? The, the, the JFK just happened
29:09
to coincidentally be in a car when there were stray bullets
29:13
flying around, you know, or, or did Julius Caesar just happened
29:17
to fall on a bunch of knives? I mean, doesn't it's so it's so
29:20
it's so Monty Python esque in it's stupidity.
29:23
Yeah, it's absurd because conspiracies are are not only
29:28
exist, but they're prevalent. And a conspiracy is just one,
29:32
two or more people. A bank robbery is a conspiracy,
29:37
OK? You know, you conspire with a
29:39
couple other people or more to rob a bank, and the conspiracy
29:44
theory is to try to find out who did it.
29:47
That's all. Simple.
29:49
I mean COVID was a conspiracy. Explain to me how the whole
29:53
world just coincidentally started locking down countries
29:57
in March 2020. All at the same time with the
30:00
exact same mechanisms, all at the same yeah.
30:04
I mean there was very few exceptions.
30:07
I think Sweden was one I forget. But anyway, yeah, it's been, it
30:12
seems like COVID is like a a nightmare that I've not remember
30:18
all the details of at this juncture.
30:20
But yeah. Yeah.
30:23
I mean, I'm thinking back to when, when, when the lockdowns
30:28
began. They were March 2020.
30:29
And I remember thinking I have never in my life heard the term
30:33
social distancing. Had you heard the term before?
30:36
Never before. And The funny thing is I mocked
30:40
it early on. I was in a grocery store where
30:42
they started using that term. And I said, oh, I better not get
30:46
too close, you know, social distancing to a person.
30:48
And they did not laugh because they were taking it very
30:53
seriously. Social distancing.
30:55
I mean, that is a. That's a loaded term suggestive
30:59
of the idea that they want to isolate you from other people.
31:04
And, and and then it was the ad console that ran an ad called
31:07
Alone Together. OK.
31:09
Yes, I remember. Yeah.
31:14
Anyway, yeah, it's crazy. There's a subtle segue here,
31:16
Michael, because I remember questioning what was going on
31:20
early on. I, I had David Icke on my
31:23
podcast, I think it was April 2020.
31:25
And immediately it got taken down from YouTube of, you know,
31:30
obviously, and I know that you're an advocate for free
31:38
speech. What do you mean, though, by
31:43
that? What?
31:43
When you say free speech, what do you mean?
31:48
It's the ownership. So since I own myself, OK, self
31:53
ownership. This is the libertarian
31:54
principle. Since I own myself, I have the
31:58
right to do with myself what I will, short of violating
32:04
somebody else's rights. And so free speech is using
32:08
yourself ownership to other things, or right things, or
32:13
otherwise communicate things using your own body and mind.
32:19
I ask that because I for many years have had a, an internal
32:24
tug of war with, with the idea of free speech and what it
32:29
means. For example, I don't like people
32:34
talking on their cell phone in a cinema and I'm and I'm OK with,
32:38
I'm OK with their speech being curtailed so that I can listen
32:41
to the movie. That's the context, you know,
32:44
like, so say you go into a a private room.
32:51
OK, so in a private space, the owner of the space has the right
32:57
to determine what's allowed. Like I'm not going to have you
33:02
in my house if you're like an Antifa member and want to burn
33:07
down the place or otherwise, you know, say all kind of things.
33:11
In other words, it's ownership that determines free speech
33:15
rights. So a university that owns the
33:19
space or controls the space and owning really means having
33:24
control over it can, can, can impose certain restrictions in
33:32
certain contexts, definitely. And that's a that's a property
33:35
rights issue. Yeah, that's that's kind of
33:38
where I was going. Because then isn't the focus on
33:41
free speech in misdirection? Shouldn't the focus be on
33:44
property rights? Yes, that's really what it comes
33:47
down to. It's a property right issue.
33:50
So in my property or in non owned property like public
33:55
space, although you know, that's another matter we could get
34:00
into. But in my own property, I'm
34:02
allowed to say whatever the hell I want, you know, and I can use
34:08
my self ownership to use myself, my mind, my body to utter
34:15
whatever I particularly want to say.
34:18
And as long as it's not a direct incitement, like a direct
34:23
incitement to to violence, like to approach other people to, to
34:27
breach other people's rights. But then you see, because this,
34:32
and This is why I'm saying I've got this tug of war, because
34:34
then you have property rights occurring all around you.
34:37
So your your property becomes highly localized.
34:43
You have self ownership, that's it and that and that.
34:47
And in your own property, you have free speech.
34:54
Which property? Yeah, no.
34:57
I was going to say, which is why you want to reduce this.
35:00
You want to reduce the the the the state ownership of property
35:03
then. That's where I was going.
35:06
You want to have all that's why you want a private property
35:10
society. And that's why Hans Herman Hapa
35:13
said you could physically remove people who are in inimical to
35:17
the private property society that you establish, because they
35:21
will. They don't have the free speech
35:22
to start advocating for communism or the revocation of
35:27
your property rights so they can get thrown out, thus the mean
35:32
physical removal. Property rights goes hand in
35:36
hand with what's going on in Gaza.
35:39
Yeah, very much so. In fact, Israel is violating the
35:45
non aggression principle constantly.
35:48
They're encroaching upon the property rights of of the
35:52
Palestinians, not only their land, but their persons.
35:56
And that's it's and it's also, I think a double NAP non
36:01
aggression principle violation because they're also extracting
36:04
wealth from the United States citizens to do it.
36:09
And that is also a property rent infringement.
36:13
So all taxes are property are are are infringements.
36:17
But in this case, we're being extorted to pay for genocide.
36:25
You started a group called a Azapac, Is that right?
36:30
How do you how do you say it, Azapac?
36:34
Yeah, it's the anti Zionist America pack, first of its kind
36:37
in the world and first of its kind in America for sure.
36:42
First and only pack that's explicitly anti Zionist and our
36:47
our our objective is to remove Zionism from the US government.
36:51
It is not about ending Israel. It is not about from the river
36:56
to the sea. We don't have any of those
36:58
slogans. What we're saying is this
37:01
Zionism in the United States in particular, is the bribery and
37:08
blackmail of our political class and the extortion of taxpayers
37:13
for Israel. That's all that matters to me.
37:17
I don't care what Israel thinks it is.
37:19
I don't care what other Zionists say it is because that's what it
37:22
means to us. We're being extorted for Israel
37:26
and and then Israel is using that extorted money to slaughter
37:30
people. That's why I find it so
37:32
narrowly, so that we don't get into discussions about, well,
37:36
that means you don't want the self determination of Jewish
37:38
people to have their own state. No, we're not saying that.
37:42
We're not saying that Israel shouldn't exist.
37:45
We're not saying that at all. What we're saying is, from the
37:48
American standpoint, Zionism is extortion and blackmail and
37:52
bribery. I mean, ultimately it doesn't
37:55
matter if Jews want a homeland. I mean, Zulus can have a
37:58
homeland, White people can have a home, the Christians can have
38:01
a homeland. I mean, it doesn't really
38:02
matter, right? Yeah.
38:04
I mean, look, everybody, look, I think people should be able to
38:06
have self determination. I think you know, but they don't
38:09
allow this. For example, in the United
38:11
States, there's a group setting up a white community, white only
38:18
you have to be from European extraction.
38:21
And they're being challenged by the ADL and all, all these other
38:27
organizations for doing what Israel's doing there, which is
38:32
to have their own. Now, Israel is a, is not a real
38:37
private property society at all. In the 1st place.
38:40
Then the Israel Land Authority, the Israeli Land Authority is,
38:47
owns most of the real, most of the land and real estate in
38:53
Israel. And they rent it to people.
38:55
And you get it first on the basis of your Jewish
39:00
affiliation. I don't know what to call it.
39:02
Ethnicity, religio, ethnical background, whatever.
39:06
They, however they define Jewish.
39:08
I, I don't know because they to me it's very nebulous.
39:14
OK. So, Michael, is Israel a proxy
39:16
of the US or is the USA proxy of Israel?
39:20
That's a great question. This is cuts to the heart of the
39:24
difference between my view and Azapac's view and typically what
39:28
leftist anti Zionists say. They think that the you you
39:33
know, that Israel is just a proxy or like a outpost of US
39:39
imperialism. I think quite the quite the
39:43
opposite actually. The United States is the
39:49
military industrial arm of Israel and we are it's well,
39:57
you, you mentioned the, the matrix, the best, the best
40:00
metaphor I can think of this. We are the batteries in the
40:03
matrix feeding that beast. And it is not the other.
40:09
It is not that we don't get anything out of, for example,
40:13
the imperialist wars that Israel would have us fight it at their
40:19
behest. For example, the Iraq war.
40:21
What did, what did we get out of that?
40:23
We got hundreds of thousands killed.
40:26
Of the US soldiers, we got a trillions of dollars worth of
40:31
debt and we got nothing but complete chaos and, and then
40:39
also immigration. So they caused the immigration
40:42
crisis through a lot of the immigration crisis through the
40:45
displacement of people. And what did we get out of
40:50
Afghanistan? The same thing.
40:51
And it was done for Israel. I, I don't want to get into the
40:54
details about why that is or how I could explain how it was for
40:58
Israel, but it was. And then the bombing of Iran
41:01
recently and now the new threats to, to attack Iran right now.
41:05
This is all for Israel. It doesn't benefit the US at
41:07
all. And certainly the extortion of
41:12
the billions and billions and billions, 10s of billions of
41:16
dollars since October, 23/7/2023 from the United States to
41:22
Israel, how does that benefit us?
41:24
How does that benefit the United States that we sent them $33
41:30
billion since October 7th, 2023? It doesn't benefit us at all.
41:36
In fact, it harms us tremendously.
41:39
So I don't see the US imperial regime, you know, the empire
41:46
increasing at all. We're not increasing the US
41:48
empire. We're the whole plan is to
41:50
create, increase Israel's empire and its Greater Israel project
41:55
and its other territorial and worldwide ambitions.
42:00
I mean, look at the total imposition of in, in Europe.
42:05
I don't know what it's like in Africa, but I mean, it's almost
42:10
illegal to protest Israel in Germany, for example, you know,
42:15
it's illegal basically to protest Israel.
42:17
It's unbelievable. And in the United States,
42:20
they're trying to make it illegal too.
42:22
They made it illegal for college students effectively because
42:25
they have equated using the anti, using the IHRA definition,
42:33
the International Holocaust Remembrance Association's
42:37
definition of anti-Semitism. It is really, if illegal to
42:43
criticize Israel or to say that they're racist or say they're
42:48
like the Nazis are to say basically anything.
42:51
And that's a working definition, which means they can change it
42:54
and add to it in any time. And they do so you know.
43:00
Well, Trump doesn't like my country very much because South
43:02
Africa is the only country that attempted to take Israel to the
43:06
international court. You might remember so, but I
43:11
mean it doesn't mean anything. It's just symbolic I suppose,
43:13
because nothing will come of it. You mean if Trump's hatred for
43:19
South America? No, no, no.
43:20
I mean the the the court case. Oh, yeah, I mean that that's
43:23
true. Not, I mean, it's just it's, you
43:26
know, I think the, you know, the ICC has has said, declared that
43:33
it Netanyahu is a war criminal. The ICJ has said it's plus, you
43:38
know, probable genocide. I don't know exact terms, but
43:42
it's, you know, basically genocide.
43:44
The UN has basically said it's genocide and nothing will happen
43:50
because the United States acting on Israel's behalf, will veto
43:54
anything, any resolutions that would punish Israel at all, no
43:59
matter what it does. It could blow up the whole
44:01
Middle East with the nuclear bombs and it won't matter.
44:05
That's what I don't understand, Michael.
44:07
Why? Why is the US Israel's bitch?
44:13
How did this happen? It's a long series of subversion
44:17
starting, you know, at least as as early as JFK, who I believe.
44:23
Yeah, he was. He was kind of neutral.
44:25
And then every president after that has been a Zionist.
44:29
That's correct, everybody. After he was less.
44:31
I don't think he was neutral actually, because he was trying
44:34
to inspect the Demona reactor and he was trying to make what's
44:41
now a pack. It was called something else,
44:43
then register as a foreign agent and then he was shot.
44:47
So. And will he also try to
44:49
dismantle the CIA? Or he wanted to.
44:51
Yes, I think Mossad and the CIA collaborated to take him out.
44:56
I think that's a fair I can't. Prove it.
44:57
Confusion, but I. Mean no.
44:59
I think that's pretty. I think that's pretty fair.
45:02
Trump is one of the most intense Zionists of the recent U.S.
45:08
President lineup. Yes, the mask has come off.
45:12
I wrote an essay and it's up on the Aza pack site, which by the
45:15
way is a ZA aza-pack.com. We have an essay section and I
45:21
called I have an essay called Zion Dawn, the completion of US
45:27
Zionization and under Trump we have seen a total acceleration
45:32
ISM of Zionist take of Zionism in the United States policies
45:37
and in the United States, you know, not only foreign policy,
45:40
but domestic as well domestic Zionism.
45:44
So, you know, this, the writing was on the wall from the first
45:49
administration with the Abraham Accords, with the moving of the
45:53
embassy to Jerusalem, with the, you know, turning.
45:59
Gaza into a into a holiday strip.
46:02
Start turning it into the Riviera of the Mediterranean.
46:06
Unbelievable. And but in even in the first
46:09
administration, the posture towards Iran, the Abraham
46:17
Accords, as I said, in the Golan Heights annex nation
46:21
ratification by the US, the, you know, the no longer calling West
46:26
Bank occupied territory, all of that.
46:30
I mean, just unbelievable. There's some good essays out
46:33
there on that. One is by Jose Nino.
46:36
He, he talks about this. I, I don't remember the title,
46:39
but if you look up Jose Nino on, on Substack, he he's really good
46:43
on this and he's associated with our pack.
46:47
Do you think there's a link between Greater Israel and the
46:51
Great Reset? That's a great question.
46:59
I think so because the link is the, is the panopticon.
47:04
You know what, they're trying to erect the panopticon of total
47:07
surveillance and control under a kind of Zionist dictatorship.
47:17
You know, So I hadn't put these things together until, you know,
47:22
maybe a year and a half ago. But I think that there is a
47:26
definite connection. I think they're effectively
47:29
going to fuse the two projects. Greater Israel is just the
47:34
regional element of Zionism. It's not the whole of it.
47:38
The, the regional element, the whole of Zionism is to control
47:41
the governments of all the countries in the world.
47:46
And that's pretty scary. But that's the conclusion I've
47:49
drawn after quite a bit of consideration and research.
47:55
The event, you know, infiltrated all these governments, You know,
47:58
it's illegal to criticize them almost anywhere in Europe.
48:04
And trying. They're trying to, you know,
48:06
last Bastion once again, as always, is the United States.
48:10
But we're under siege. We're under a Zionist siege
48:14
right now. I think it was Yuri Besmarov who
48:20
he was a former KGB operative, he said in a great interview in
48:24
back, back in 1994, ironically with G Edward Griffin.
48:30
He said that the US will. Yeah, he said. the US will
48:33
destroy itself from within. Yeah, that's right.
48:37
Subversion. He talked about the way that
48:40
subversion works. He didn't tie it to Zionism, but
48:45
I think it's easily extrapolated, you know, Speaking
48:49
of which, going back to Hoppa, you know, Hoppa said that in a
48:54
private property society, it would eliminate inimical
48:57
ideologies or people that hold inimical ideologies would be
49:01
physically removed. They would be requested to
49:04
leave. And if they didn't, they would
49:05
be physically removed. Well, Dionism is one of those.
49:10
It is, it is an ideology that is totalitarian, It means to, it
49:17
means to infringe our rights tremendously and it means to
49:21
extort money from us. So it is one of these ideologies
49:24
that would be physically removed.
49:28
A Jewish friend of mine said to him Zionism is just simply the
49:33
right to have a Jewish homeland. Yeah, I mean, that's fine.
49:37
But the problem is what, what constitutes having a Jewish
49:42
homeland happens to be starting with, you know, the Nakba and
49:47
then further and the further oppression and isolation and
49:58
control of the Palestinian region and the Palestinians
50:03
constant onslaught against them and they're infringement of
50:08
their rights. That's the whole thing.
50:10
It started from terrorism. Saginaw, Ergon and the Stern
50:15
Gang, they were terrorists. They conducted terrorism not
50:20
only against Arabs, but against the British.
50:25
When they blew up King, the King David Hotel, killed all these
50:29
British people, British ambassadors, all kinds of stuff.
50:33
So the the whole project begins with the violation of other
50:39
people's rights and continues on that basis.
50:44
So in that sense, it's not true that it just means the right for
50:50
Jewish people to have a homeland.
50:53
I mean, they could have that homeland somewhere else that
50:56
wouldn't infringe on other people's rights.
50:58
Go buy an island. Go buy they have the enclave in
51:03
Russia, which was set aside for them.
51:06
Go buy some other real estate and and so forth.
51:10
You don't steal it. Now.
51:11
They did buy some. To be fair, there were infusions
51:16
of cash from the Rothschilds to buy properties from the
51:20
Palestinians or the Arabs. And but then when it you know
51:25
when they used terror to remove the rest.
51:28
Just for clarity, though, because people often think that
51:31
when you say Zionists, you're only referring to Jews.
51:33
I mean, in America, I think around 70 million Zionists are
51:37
those evangelical Christians. Yes, So we make this very clear.
51:43
OK, there's three things. Not all, not all Zionists are
51:47
Jewish. Not all Jews are Zionists.
51:50
But then there's a third thing. Zionism benefits Zionist Jews.
51:57
Yeah, that's who it's for. OK, so the other people, the
52:00
the, the, the gentiles, the Christian Zionists, they're
52:04
serving the agenda of the Zionist Jews.
52:10
And that's through indoctrination, through their
52:12
own doctrine. Cult.
52:15
Yes, through their own religious doctrine or cult.
52:17
It's the whole Christian Zionist theology, if you want to call it
52:22
that. Political theology is really
52:25
what it is. Was a Zionist psyop to begin
52:28
with. Yeah, Dobby, Schofield,
52:30
etcetera. Schofield, etcetera.
52:32
Yeah, Schofield Bible, you know, dealt, you know, Untermeyer
52:38
being the main liaison between the Rothschild and the
52:42
Rothschilds and Schofield and so forth.
52:47
Yeah. I mean, you said earlier that
52:52
you'd like to remove Zionism from the US government.
52:57
I mean, I think that's probably the starting point, but.
52:59
It seems. Impossible.
53:01
It's it's look, it's a, it's a Herculean task, but the options
53:07
are basically two others 1 to effectively lay down and let it
53:14
happen to be and be bulldozed over like Rachel Corey.
53:20
I'm not saying she let that happen, but you know, to be
53:22
bulldozed like Rachel Corey or armed revolution.
53:28
And that's not going to happen because it's just not going to
53:30
happen. So, and because people say,
53:34
well, you can't vote your way out of this.
53:36
Well, what is your proposal? That's what I'd like to know.
53:39
If you can't vote, you're saying we can't do anything
53:41
politically, we can't vote our way out of it.
53:44
So what's your proposal? They don't come up with one.
53:47
It's typically they just allude to this idea that there's some
53:51
other way, but tell me what it is, and they don't really have
53:54
an answer. So I think that we're using
53:56
electoral means. This is purely peaceful, using
54:00
the electoral system and the following the Constitution of
54:03
the United States, nothing illegal, nothing violent to
54:07
remove these people from office through electoral means.
54:10
We're not talking about hopping and physical removal by, you
54:14
know, extracting them and throwing them out of the
54:16
country. We're talking about voting them
54:19
out of office. It is the.
54:21
Problem is. Yeah, go.
54:23
Ahead, yeah, but the the problem, the problem is that you
54:25
won't have any government. Well, we'd have to replace most
54:30
of the people, true, but we're just trying to get a block in
54:34
right now in the midterms. So we're trying to get a block,
54:38
a small block if we will, of anti Zionists who are going to
54:42
make an be obstreperous to be obstructionist in there.
54:46
And then hopefully that block grows over time and we'll work
54:52
to make that block grow grow over time.
54:54
Well, I mean Catherine Orson Fitz likes to say you, you
54:57
change the world one person at a time.
55:01
Yeah, that's right. So in in the case of people that
55:05
won't change their ideology, we'll just have to get rid of
55:08
them. Not physically.
55:10
OK, I got to be careful. Next time, you know, they're
55:17
going to call me Hitler too or something.
55:20
I'm saying this is purely through a legal electoral
55:25
process. And if they won't change their
55:28
views, and we try to work on that too, on that end, to try to
55:32
change the views of people that already are in office.
55:35
Now there's other lobbies that are trying to do that part too,
55:38
pro Palestinian lobbies and things like that.
55:41
And we're working with some of these.
55:43
But we have a different approach in the sense that we think and
55:47
leftist anti Zionism has made. It has been ineffective.
55:51
Let's be real. It's been ineffective because
55:53
it's approaching the problem from the wrong side.
55:56
It's trying to elect Democrats into office in some cases in
56:02
really Republican strongholds. And that'll never happen.
56:06
So what our what our approach is, is to get Republicans to go
56:11
after the Republican side of it, to replace the Republicans with
56:14
other Republicans who are non or anti Zionist.
56:18
Because you're you're up against basically the whole MAGA cult
56:20
also. Well, they're falling apart
56:23
though. MAGA is breaking up because of
56:26
this issue. MAGA is divided, it's fractured.
56:30
I'd say there's a huge disaffection amongst the MAGA
56:35
crowd over this particular issue itself.
56:39
Many people see the writing on the wall.
56:40
It's like, what is this? Is this the United States of
56:43
Israel or what? And they, they, they see if
56:48
those who really fall, you know, we're maggot because of the
56:52
America first principles that Trump espoused and then utterly
56:57
betrayed, then they're going to be disaffected.
57:00
They're going to be disaffected maggot people.
57:04
There are some other types of course that are loyal to Trump
57:09
no matter what he does and that's just a cult.
57:12
But there are non cult members amongst MAGA and they're peeling
57:15
off. And you can also see some pretty
57:19
big commentators starting to swing.
57:21
I mean, Charlie Cook was, I think, on the verge of turning.
57:27
Yes, he was. I think he was very, he was
57:29
turning and he was beginning to turn.
57:32
And I mean, he said straight up, I can in in a text message
57:37
that's been publicized, he said. I have no other, no other option
57:43
but to to, to, to what? What did he say exactly?
57:49
To no longer support Israel. And you can see this with with
57:57
Candace Owens. She, I mean, that was her big
57:59
thing with Ben Shapiro. And they they kind of split up
58:02
and now you can see Tucker Carlson is also starting to to
58:06
question things. Oh yeah, Tucker Carlson's been
58:10
very strong on this and he's he's they, I mean, they named
58:14
him the anti Semite of the year last year, which is, I mean,
58:21
they even had Miss Rachel in that contest, you know, this
58:25
group called Stop anti-Semitism. I really, I really find these
58:31
kind of things. Don't these people realize that
58:33
when you try to like, stop something, you produce it.
58:38
You end up producing it because people hate you for trying to
58:41
control their behavior and their speech.
58:44
Well, I mean all that you have to do is when somebody calls you
58:47
anti-Semitic, you respond by saying I'm not anti-Semitic.
58:51
I've got nothing against Arabs. That's right.
58:55
That's a good one. That's very good.
58:58
Yeah, very good. Because you know this, the
59:01
Palestinians are Semites, OK, And they're slaughtering.
59:05
They're the ones, I'd say Israel is the biggest anti-Semitic
59:08
entity on Earth and they produce anti-Semitism on purpose, I
59:14
believe, because they and they conflate it.
59:17
Yeah, they and they conflate anti-Semitism with anti Zionism
59:21
on purpose in order to say that any opposition to what they're
59:24
doing is anti Semite Semitic. And that's the total, It's a
59:28
total ruse. It's a complete sham.
59:31
I mean, it's a trick and a lot of people fall for it.
59:36
What would you say then, is the moral of the story here?
59:42
Yeah, that's a great question. The moral of the story is we're,
59:49
we're, we're trying to find, we're, we're fighting for our
59:53
freedom and we have to acknowledge the obstacles to
59:58
that freedom and remove those obstacles.
1:00:01
We have to fight against those obstacles and whatever they are.
1:00:04
For example, if China was running the United States, I
1:00:07
would be anti, I would have found that an anti CCP pack.
1:00:12
But there's not China running the country.
1:00:14
So you have to identify the obstacles to liberty and attempt
1:00:18
to remove those obstacles. And the true value has got to be
1:00:23
freedom and self determination. And and individual sovereignty.
1:00:33
The great reject. Exactly the great, No, Yeah.
1:00:41
OK, Michael, how can I follow you?
1:00:44
Well, on X is really where I'm the most rambunctious, I should
1:00:49
say. That's at wreck the regime at
1:00:52
REC the regime and then my personal website
1:00:58
ismichaelrectenwald.com. I also have a stop stack.
1:01:02
You just search for rekt rect, Michael Rectenwald rect and then
1:01:09
our website for the pack is aza-pack.com, aza-pack.com.
1:01:16
And you got also got a few books going back to Snowflakes and
1:01:20
Wokeness and now about The Great Reset.
1:01:23
I have 14 books now. I just published another
1:01:27
academic book called Authority and Contest Periodicals and
1:01:32
British Knowledge Politics 1820 to 1860.
1:01:37
And then before that was The Great Reset.
1:01:39
Yeah. So I, I continue.
1:01:41
I don't know how many more I have left, but I still think
1:01:44
there's a few books left in me. And they're all novels.
1:01:49
There's two novels, there's the Thought Criminal novel and then
1:01:52
there's the Cabal question novel, which is another that's
1:01:55
that's that came in between after the Great Reset book.
1:02:00
All right, Michael Rectenwald, let me try that again.
1:02:03
Michael Rectenwald, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to
1:02:05
you. Thank you for joining me in the
1:02:06
trenches. It's great to talk to you.
1:02:08
Take care.