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Gravity Questions, Cosmic Energy & Hidden Galaxies · Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries

• 0:00
  Andrew Dunkley: Hi there, this is Space Nuts. Q and A. My
• 0:02
  name is Andrew Dunkley. Great to have your
• 0:04
  company. Coming up on this episode, we'll
• 0:06
  answer questions from Steve, Gus and Nick.
• 0:08
  Uh, Steve and Gus are sort of focused on the
• 0:11
  same thing, gravity.
• 0:13
  Steve, uh, wants to know if it can exist
• 0:15
  without mass. Uh, and Gus is talking
• 0:18
  about gravity and energy and what's the
• 0:21
  relationship. And Nick is asking about
• 0:24
  galaxy, um, movements and are any moving
• 0:26
  towards us that we can't see yet?
• 0:29
  Well, we don't know we can't see them yet.
• 0:31
  Uh, but we'll see if we can tackle all of
• 0:33
  that on this episode of space
• 0:35
  nuts.
• 0:36
  Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
• 0:39
  10, 9. Ignition
• 0:41
  sequence start. Space nuts. 5, 4, 3,
• 0:45
  2. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,
• 0:47
  3, 2, 1. Space nuts. Astronauts
• 0:50
  report it feels good.
• 0:52
  Andrew Dunkley: Here he is again, Professor Fred Watson.
• 0:55
  Hello, Fred.
• 0:56
  Professor Fred Watson: Hello Andrew. Hello. How are you doing now?
• 1:00
  Andrew Dunkley: I'm doing the same as I was before.
• 1:03
  How about you?
• 1:05
  Professor Fred Watson: Uh, well, I'm still doing the same as I was
• 1:07
  before. Yes, that's right. And I hope to be
• 1:10
  doing the same again very soon.
• 1:12
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed, yes. Uh, shall
• 1:15
  we just sort of muck in and get
• 1:18
  these questions sorted out?
• 1:21
  It was ah, like a couple of weeks ago we had
• 1:24
  um, gravity questions coming in thick and
• 1:27
  fast. Uh, no black hole questions. But today
• 1:29
  it's gravity questions.
• 1:30
  Professor Fred Watson: It is.
• 1:31
  Andrew Dunkley: And our first one comes from
• 1:34
  Steve.
• 1:35
  Steve: Hi guys, my name is Steve. I'm uh, from New
• 1:38
  Zealand. Um, really enjoy your show.
• 1:42
  Recently read a article
• 1:46
  implying that, uh, gravity
• 1:50
  could be possible without mass.
• 1:53
  And um, I'm wondering if that would
• 1:56
  be, uh, another alternative
• 1:58
  explanation to um,
• 2:02
  uh, dark matter and to
• 2:04
  Mond.
• 2:07
  Yeah, I don't know if that makes it very
• 2:09
  clear to you. Anyway, thanks.
• 2:11
  Andrew Dunkley: All right, uh, Steve, thanks for the
• 2:12
  question, gravity without mass.
• 2:15
  Well, I doubt that, uh, we can turn to the
• 2:18
  Catholic Church because they do have mass.
• 2:22
  Um, but,
• 2:26
  uh, terrible. Uh, it's an interesting
• 2:28
  question though.
• 2:30
  Professor Fred Watson: It is. And um, so
• 2:33
  yeah, my reading on this. Excuse me, is
• 2:36
  yes, um, that's correct.
• 2:39
  So, uh, actually there's a nice
• 2:42
  thread about this on Reddit if anybody looks
• 2:44
  at that website.
• 2:46
  Andrew Dunkley: I do.
• 2:47
  Professor Fred Watson: And um, well, I love Reddit. Yeah,
• 2:52
  really Well, I do remember my, uh, one of my
• 2:54
  sons was an absolute Reddit fiend at one
• 2:57
  time. He was very much, um,
• 3:00
  a Reddit fan. Uh, now, so
• 3:03
  that's how I was aware of it. But I haven't
• 3:05
  been a great user of Reddit. But the bottom
• 3:08
  line. Excuse me, is, um,
• 3:12
  and this is the way it's phrased in this
• 3:15
  Particular conversation. If you increase
• 3:18
  the temperature of
• 3:21
  an object and they take a planet, in this
• 3:24
  case, uh, and in fact I might just
• 3:27
  read it, uh, because this kind of is
• 3:30
  quite interesting.
• 3:31
  Um,
• 3:35
  take your Neptunian planet, something the
• 3:37
  size of Neptune, raise the temperature by 300
• 3:40
  degrees Kelvin instantly. Now, the mass
• 3:43
  of neptune is about 10 to the 26 kg.
• 3:46
  And if we roughly assume all its hydrogen,
• 3:48
  uh, corresponds uh, to about 6 times 10
• 3:51
  to the 52 particles of hydrogen. Uh,
• 3:54
  the thermal energy is roughly given by
• 3:58
  an uh, equation. There equals nkt, uh,
• 4:01
  uh, which leads to an increase in thermal
• 4:04
  energy, uh, of
• 4:07
  deh.
• 4:07
  Gus: Duh.
• 4:07
  Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and it's a large number of
• 4:10
  joules. Um, actually it's a small number
• 4:13
  of joules. It's k times 6
• 4:16
  times 10 to the minus 52 times 300
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  Joules, which
• 4:21
  um, if you then convert that.
• 4:24
  So what this is saying is you warm up a
• 4:27
  planet, you get an increase, uh, in the
• 4:30
  thermal energy of that planet. You can then
• 4:33
  use E equals MC squared to convert that
• 4:35
  thermal energy into mass. And in this case it
• 4:38
  comes out to be something like 3 times 10 to
• 4:41
  the 15 kilogram is a lot,
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  but, uh, is not
• 4:47
  very much in comparison with a planet. Uh,
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  but that does mean that adding energy
• 4:53
  to something will increase its gravitational
• 4:55
  mass. Now, um,
• 4:59
  Steve's sort of, uh, you know,
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  um, next step in the argument from that is
• 5:05
  whether that could be misleading us in the
• 5:08
  idea of dark matter and things of that sort
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  of. Um. And uh,
• 5:13
  I can't really get my head around how
• 5:16
  that would work. Um, he mentioned MOND
• 5:18
  as well modified Newtonian dynamics.
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  Um, because my understanding
• 5:24
  is that everybody who looks at these
• 5:28
  particular problems, what is dark matter?
• 5:30
  What is dark energy, they take into account
• 5:33
  everything. Uh, I've um, read some of the
• 5:35
  papers on this and so things like,
• 5:39
  um, uh,
• 5:41
  gravitational influence of
• 5:45
  pure energy. And in this case we're talking
• 5:47
  about heat energy. That
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  uh, is likely to be something that would
• 5:53
  be already in the equations. Um, so I don't
• 5:55
  think it's the answer, but it's a really
• 5:57
  interesting suggestion and an interesting
• 6:00
  thing to think about. Uh, thank
• 6:03
  you very much, Steve.
• 6:04
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, indeed. Just, um, made me wonder. Are
• 6:07
  we increasing Earth's gravity because we're
• 6:09
  heating the planet up?
• 6:11
  Professor Fred Watson: Yep, that's probably right. Um,
• 6:14
  I mean the example that uh, I just read out
• 6:17
  was about
• 6:20
  300 degrees Kelvin, an instant increase, uh,
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  in that we're talking about one or two
• 6:26
  degrees Kelvin, uh, uh,
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  which makes a big difference to the Earth's
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  atmosphere, but probably not that much
• 6:32
  difference to its uh, you know, gravitational
• 6:34
  potential.
• 6:36
  Andrew Dunkley: Okay, M. So the answer is yes. Gravity can
• 6:38
  exist without mass, but
• 6:41
  it's probably not a major factor. Is that
• 6:45
  fair enough?
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  Professor Fred Watson: Uh, yes, that is right.
• 6:49
  Um, I've, uh, just been dragging through my
• 6:51
  memory, Andrew, something else that's sort
• 6:54
  of vaguely related to this.
• 6:56
  Um, which is the. Well, we haven't
• 6:59
  used this name, but we did talk about it a
• 7:01
  while ago. Kugelblitz.
• 7:04
  Do you know what a Kugelblitz is?
• 7:06
  Andrew Dunkley: Uh, look, I've heard this before.
• 7:09
  Uh, no, remind me.
• 7:11
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. So it basically is,
• 7:14
  uh, a black hole made of light. Uh,
• 7:18
  and Wikipedia says it's a concentration of
• 7:20
  heat, light, or radiation so intense that its
• 7:22
  energy forms an event horizon and becomes
• 7:24
  self trapped. In other words, if enough
• 7:27
  radiation is aimed into a region of space,
• 7:29
  the concentration of energy can warp space
• 7:32
  time so much that it creates a black hole.
• 7:35
  It's a black hole as a black hole whose
• 7:38
  original mass energy was in the form of
• 7:40
  radiant energy rather than matter.
• 7:43
  Uh, now, um, there is a
• 7:46
  paper that was published in
• 7:48
  2024 that concludes
• 7:52
  that a phenomenon like this cannot occur in
• 7:54
  any realistic scenario within our universe.
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  So kugelblitzes, uh, are a theoretical
• 8:00
  entity that are not thought not
• 8:03
  to occur in nature. Uh, but it
• 8:06
  is a similar thing, isn't it? So it
• 8:08
  basically. It's a black hole made of energy.
• 8:11
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Wow, that's really interesting. I'll
• 8:14
  tell you something else that does exist is a
• 8:16
  Kugel scriber. So
• 8:19
  I've got one of those.
• 8:20
  Professor Fred Watson: Have you?
• 8:22
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. There it is.
• 8:23
  Professor Fred Watson: Mangle.
• 8:24
  Andrew Dunkley: It's a pen. It's German looking.
• 8:26
  Professor Fred Watson: Hold it up. Ah, okay.
• 8:28
  Andrew Dunkley: Google scriber.
• 8:29
  Professor Fred Watson: Kugel scriber, yes.
• 8:32
  Andrew Dunkley: You know what German is? Uh. You know what
• 8:33
  the German is for pencil?
• 8:35
  Professor Fred Watson: Uh, I probably did once, but I don't know.
• 8:41
  All right. Uh, it's probably.
• 8:44
  I only.
• 8:45
  Andrew Dunkley: I did languages at high school, and I was
• 8:47
  very good at them. And I should have probably
• 8:49
  pursued that somewhere along the line, but
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  German stuck with me.
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  Professor Fred Watson: I.
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  Andrew Dunkley: Some of the references I still remember
• 8:56
  today. Someone's going to correct me now
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  because I probably buggered up the, uh,
• 8:59
  pronunciation anyway.
• 9:02
  Professor Fred Watson: That's all right.
• 9:03
  Andrew Dunkley: I'm just showing off now.
• 9:04
  Professor Fred Watson: No, ah, it's a side of your character that I
• 9:07
  was unaware of, Andrew. Um,
• 9:10
  curiously, I, uh,
• 9:13
  never joined Lerman at school. I
• 9:16
  never learned Sherman at school. Um,
• 9:19
  but, uh, uh, when I was 14,
• 9:22
  uh, I went on a school exchange to
• 9:25
  Germany, which was Barbara, because I wasn't
• 9:27
  studying German. But that was my first
• 9:30
  overseas visit, of course, from the United
• 9:32
  Kingdom. Um, and so I've
• 9:34
  spent the. However many years it
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  is, 60 odd years since then
• 9:40
  trying to learn German and.
• 9:44
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah, look, I'm so
• 9:47
  jealous of students in countries like the
• 9:49
  United States and the UK and Europe because
• 9:52
  they get to do excursions to other countries.
• 9:55
  In Australia, we got to do excursions to
• 9:57
  Sydney and Canberra. I mean, come on.
• 10:02
  That was it. Yeah, that was as good as it
• 10:05
  got for us. Yeah, I mean, these days they get
• 10:07
  to go to New Zealand once in a while. Um,
• 10:10
  but yeah, we're so far from everywhere. It's
• 10:13
  just not easy. Although my son did go to get
• 10:15
  to do a couple of weeks in Japan through high
• 10:18
  school.
• 10:18
  Professor Fred Watson: So there you go.
• 10:19
  Andrew Dunkley: There are a few options these days. This is
• 10:22
  Space Nuts. Andrew Dunkley here with
• 10:24
  Professor Fred Watson.
• 10:28
  Generic: Three, two, one.
• 10:31
  Andrew Dunkley: Space Nuts. Uh, we better keep moving. Uh,
• 10:34
  thank you, Steve.
• 10:35
  Let's get a question from Gus.
• 10:38
  Gus: Hello, Professor Fred and uh, Andrew.
• 10:41
  Uh, this is Gus Iverson from Issaquah,
• 10:44
  Washington. I sent in a question for you guys
• 10:46
  previously and you thought I was in Western
• 10:49
  Australia. Yes, I, I've been thinking about,
• 10:52
  um, gravity, uh,
• 10:55
  today. And it, it came to my mind that
• 10:58
  if, uh, energy and mass
• 11:00
  are equivalent, then essentially,
• 11:04
  uh, shouldn't energy also create
• 11:07
  gravity at some level?
• 11:11
  Um, I'm not sure if this is a related
• 11:13
  question or an extension or
• 11:16
  a separate question though. Um, uh,
• 11:19
  additionally, um, if a
• 11:22
  body of any size is
• 11:25
  generating or has mass
• 11:28
  and it is generating a
• 11:30
  gravitational field, does
• 11:33
  not that field itself
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  have energy and mass?
• 11:40
  And would that field not
• 11:42
  create additional gravity
• 11:46
  by its simple existence?
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  So if that's the case,
• 11:51
  or even kind of the case, my question is,
• 11:55
  where does the energy and mass go? If,
• 11:58
  um, or, um.
• 12:02
  I have no idea where to go with this.
• 12:04
  Professor Fred Watson: Thank you.
• 12:05
  Gus: Uh, I love the show and, uh, appreciate being
• 12:07
  able to ask questions.
• 12:09
  Andrew Dunkley: Thank you, Gus. Uh, that sounded very much
• 12:11
  like something from catch 22.
• 12:14
  Was it apples or tomatoes? They were trying
• 12:16
  to. I don't know. Um,
• 12:19
  but, uh, yeah, it sounded a bit like that.
• 12:21
  Um, gravity plus energy, body plus
• 12:24
  mass plus gravity equals energy. But
• 12:27
  then does that add mass which adds to
• 12:30
  gravity? I think that's what he was trying
• 12:32
  to.
• 12:32
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. So, so you've got a. You
• 12:35
  know, the whole thing gets completely out of
• 12:37
  hand because everything's got gravity. Um,
• 12:40
  I think, uh, so the first part of what Gus
• 12:43
  was saying is what we've just been talking
• 12:45
  about. You know, if you have energy and
• 12:47
  mass, um, and
• 12:52
  gravitation, you probably have to
• 12:55
  be careful with the words.
• 12:58
  Gravitation is a Potential.
• 13:01
  Uh, an object in a gravitational field has
• 13:04
  potential energy, so it does have energy.
• 13:07
  Uh, but
• 13:10
  I kind of need to take this one and notice.
• 13:12
  Actually, you did give me notice, Andrew, but
• 13:14
  I didn't have time to really look further
• 13:16
  into it.
• 13:17
  Andrew Dunkley: But.
• 13:19
  Professor Fred Watson: I think there's a stumbling block somewhere
• 13:21
  in that argument, uh, which is probably that
• 13:24
  gravitational energy isn't energy. That's
• 13:26
  convertible to mass. Um, but I
• 13:29
  need to get my thoughts clearer on that,
• 13:32
  which they aren't at the moment. So, Gus,
• 13:34
  thank you for a very, uh, tricky question,
• 13:38
  uh, which, um, I might think a little bit
• 13:40
  more about. Uh, and,
• 13:43
  uh, perhaps we will revisit it in a future
• 13:46
  episode of Spacenuts. Q and A.
• 13:50
  Andrew Dunkley: Um, I put a, uh, homework marker next to it.
• 13:53
  Professor Fred Watson: That's what I. I'm just doing that. I'm doing
• 13:55
  it. You're doing it in your, uh, kugel.
• 13:59
  Andrew Dunkley: I'm using a red Kugel scriber.
• 14:01
  Professor Fred Watson: Okay.
• 14:03
  Andrew Dunkley: I don't know what the German word for red is,
• 14:05
  though.
• 14:06
  Professor Fred Watson: Oh.
• 14:06
  Andrew Dunkley: Probably do it on translator.
• 14:08
  Professor Fred Watson: Uh.
• 14:09
  Andrew Dunkley: Ah, there you are.
• 14:10
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, there you are.
• 14:12
  Andrew Dunkley: I don't have to look it up.
• 14:13
  Professor Fred Watson: You do.
• 14:15
  Andrew Dunkley: So, Gus, um, dunno. We don't know.
• 14:19
  Maybe. Possibly. Could be.
• 14:21
  Professor Fred Watson: Don't know. Yeah, but we'll. How's
• 14:24
  that?
• 14:25
  Andrew Dunkley: Don't yet know.
• 14:28
  I like that.
• 14:29
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
• 14:29
  Andrew Dunkley: Uh, let's, um, get to the final question.
• 14:32
  We'll get back to you, Gus. At some stage in
• 14:35
  Western Australia, or it could be the United
• 14:37
  States.
• 14:37
  Uh, now we've got a question from. Oh,
• 14:41
  um, just by coincidence, from New Zealand
• 14:43
  again. Um, hi, Tim. Amazing
• 14:46
  podcast. Which one are you talking about now?
• 14:48
  Uh, I have been listening since your early
• 14:51
  days and have always, uh, looked forward to
• 14:53
  new, uh, uploads. My question is around the
• 14:55
  discovery of early galaxies from the James
• 14:58
  Webb Space Telescope. Is it possible for
• 15:00
  earlier galaxies to be traveling towards us
• 15:03
  that are currently out of reach? Uh, filling
• 15:06
  with potentially, uh, nothing. Uh,
• 15:10
  filling where potentially nothing was in view
• 15:12
  before. Uh, if possible, would the light be
• 15:15
  compressed? How would the instruments deal
• 15:18
  with that? Hope that makes sense. Cheers.
• 15:20
  Nick from Auckland, New Zealand.
• 15:25
  My brain just went, well, I suppose it's
• 15:27
  possible, but how do we prove it until it
• 15:29
  happens?
• 15:30
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes. So, a. Ah, couple of things in here. Um,
• 15:33
  thanks, Nick. Great question. The last bit
• 15:36
  about light being compressed, um,
• 15:39
  and in a way, that's, um, quite
• 15:42
  a nice way of putting it. So anything that
• 15:44
  comes towards you that's emitting light,
• 15:46
  its light will be blue shifted. In other
• 15:48
  words, its wavelength will get
• 15:51
  shorter. And that's saying
• 15:54
  it's compressed is pretty well you know,
• 15:56
  that's pretty well what happens. It's like,
• 15:58
  uh, um, you know, the good old
• 16:01
  ambulance, uh, siren or fire engine siren or
• 16:04
  whatever it is coming towards you, uh, which
• 16:06
  compresses the sound waves. And the
• 16:09
  result is an increase in pitch. Which
• 16:11
  corresponds to a shortening of wavelength. So
• 16:13
  that's standard physics. We can detect,
• 16:16
  uh, by the Doppler shift, anything coming
• 16:19
  towards us. Uh, by the fact that its light is
• 16:22
  shifted towards the blue end of the spectrum.
• 16:25
  Um, but, um, the
• 16:28
  first bit of the question about galaxies,
• 16:32
  earlier galaxies traveling towards us.
• 16:34
  Andrew Dunkley: Um.
• 16:39
  Professor Fred Watson: When we think about galaxies, we have
• 16:42
  two different velocities involved. One
• 16:45
  is the velocity of a galaxy as it's
• 16:48
  carried along by the expansion of the
• 16:50
  universe. Uh, and that is
• 16:53
  what we measure as a redshift. Uh,
• 16:56
  the expansion of the universe is carrying
• 16:58
  galaxies away from us. And so their light is
• 17:00
  being redshifted. Uh, and by the
• 17:03
  time you get to these really early galaxies
• 17:06
  where you're looking back, uh, almost the
• 17:08
  whole edge of the universe, the redshift is
• 17:11
  very considerable. It's a factor of 13 or 14,
• 17:14
  something like that. We're giving the name Z.
• 17:16
  Uh, the redshift is about 14. So,
• 17:19
  um. I beg your pardon. No, that's not true.
• 17:21
  Uh, that's me confusing the age
• 17:24
  with the redshift. Forget that bit. But
• 17:27
  the number's quite high. The redshifts are
• 17:29
  probably five or six or something like that.
• 17:31
  But, uh, it's still a high level of
• 17:35
  the light being stretched out by the
• 17:36
  expansion of the universe. So that's one
• 17:39
  velocity. But galaxies can have
• 17:42
  superimposed on that a velocity which we call
• 17:45
  a peculiar motion. Its own velocity, uh,
• 17:48
  caused by local eddies in
• 17:51
  space or whatever. Uh, that. That might,
• 17:54
  um, move a galaxy towards us. It's the
• 17:56
  gravitational field that it's exposed
• 17:59
  to. Very much like the
• 18:02
  analog is always a river carrying you along.
• 18:05
  Uh, and if you're in a rowboat, you can move
• 18:06
  relative to the river. But the river's always
• 18:08
  carrying you along. That's exactly what's
• 18:10
  happening with the Hubble flow, the expansion
• 18:13
  of the universe. And these peculiar motions
• 18:15
  are superimposed on that. But they're much,
• 18:17
  much less than the motion,
• 18:20
  uh, those distances, uh, or look
• 18:22
  back times. It's much, much less than the
• 18:26
  expansion flow of the universe. So no, there
• 18:28
  won't be anything hidden from us that's
• 18:30
  coming towards us. I don't think it's an
• 18:32
  interesting suggestion. But, uh, uh,
• 18:34
  everything's moving away from us at this very
• 18:36
  high velocity. At those distances, M
• 18:39
  of Course.
• 18:40
  Andrew Dunkley: Um, Nick, if you want to check with us, uh,
• 18:42
  in a million years or so, we might have an
• 18:44
  alternative answer.
• 18:45
  Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's true. Uh, put that in your diary
• 18:47
  and, uh, I'll mark it with an
• 18:50
  asterisk, knowing that it's work for a
• 18:52
  million years time. Yes,
• 18:55
  it's good.
• 18:56
  Andrew Dunkley: Um, I'm really disappointed that the people
• 18:59
  who make diaries haven't gone ahead that far
• 19:01
  yet.
• 19:06
  Thanks, Nick. Um, probably not, I think, is
• 19:08
  the answer. Um, but thanks for the
• 19:11
  question. Thanks to everyone who sent in
• 19:13
  questions. Keep them coming. You can do that
• 19:14
  via our, ah, website spacenutspodcast.com
• 19:17
  spacenuts IO which, uh, has two
• 19:20
  options. The AMA tab at the top where you can
• 19:23
  send us text audio or the send us your
• 19:25
  questions, um, button on the right hand side
• 19:28
  of our home screen. Don't forget to tell us
• 19:30
  who you are and where you're from. And you
• 19:32
  can probably upload your audio questions on
• 19:35
  any device as long as you've got a
• 19:36
  microphone. Mobile phones are perfect for
• 19:39
  this. Um, but, um, a lot of people have home
• 19:42
  computers with mics built in, et cetera, et
• 19:44
  cetera, et cetera. Always happy to hear from
• 19:46
  you. Um, Fred, thanks so much. We're done
• 19:49
  with another episode. Geez. We're wrapping
• 19:51
  them up.
• 19:52
  Professor Fred Watson: We are racking him up. Good to talk to you,
• 19:53
  Andrew. And we'll speak again soon.
• 19:56
  Andrew Dunkley: Indeed we will. Professor Fred Watson,
• 19:58
  astronomer at large. And thanks to Huw in the
• 20:00
  studio for collating.
• 20:04
  Not much, but, uh, we thank him anyway. And
• 20:06
  from me, Andrew Dunkley, thanks for your
• 20:07
  company. See you on the very next episode of
• 20:10
  Space Nuts. Bye bye.
• 20:12
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• 20:15
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• 20:20
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• 20:22
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• 20:25
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