Latest / Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories / Neurodiversity Matters: Insights from a Global HR Leader, Andrea Li

Transcript

Neurodiversity Matters: Insights from a Global HR Leader, Andrea Li · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:01
  Speaker A: Today on the Inchtones podcast, I have a friend of mine who came into my life through a professional venture. And when I first started speaking about neurodiversity, Drea Lee was one of the first human resources officers to say yes. The conversations that you're bringing up about neurodiversity are not only wanted, but are necessary. And I have Andrea Lee here today. She is the Senior Director of Global Human Resources for Mallon and Goetz. So thank you for being here today, Andrea.
• 0:36
  Speaker B: Thank you for having me, Sarah. I'm so happy to be here.
• 0:39
  Speaker A: Your trajectory as an HR executive has been in New York City. You are a powerhouse. You are not in a small little industry at all. You've done it for 13 years. How has. How has the landscape of the workplace culture began since you started your career in HR?
• 1:03
  Speaker B: Definitely seen a big shift in the 13 years that I've been in focusing just on human resources. I think, you know, there was a time when I first started that we were relegated to. Hr was relegated to paper pushing. Right, Right. And that's how HR was seen. So that's kind of what created the culture of the brands that I worked in. Over time, as the shift in HR is how we were perceived, I've started to see a shift in just company culture in general. There's more tolerance, there's more acceptance, there's more understanding that the culture of the brand is created not just by the leadership, but by the employees in general. Right. There was this misnomer, this misconception when I first started in the brand that HR was the culture creator. Right. It was on every job description, for every job I applied for. Create company culture. That's not who we are. That's not what we are. I consider myself a gatekeeper of culture. But one person, one team, cannot create a company of 200 employees.
• 2:11
  Speaker A: Culture.
• 2:13
  Speaker B: Right. That starts at the top. That starts with leadership, and it trickles, it rolls, and it continues with the employee population that we hire, that we bring on board. That's where real culture of the company is. Is truly creative.
• 2:28
  Speaker A: Do you feel like that was part of the embers of why you even went in to HR in the first place? Like it's. It sounds like you're describing that HR originally or maybe years ago was like the one pager. Right. Like every person was a one pager and you were. It was a st papers, but that was a stack of people. And you saw the complexity of humans beyond that stack of paper Individuals.
• 2:52
  Speaker B: Absolutely. I think in terms I've never wanted to work For a company or in a brand where employees are seen as numbers. I've done that. I've worked for Abercrombie in the early 2000s.
• 3:03
  Speaker A: Oh, right.
• 3:04
  Speaker B: Like, I was a shop manager for them, you know, so I worked in retail. So I've seen toxic culture, and I've seen really positive culture, and I've worked as a number of. I wasn't Andrea Greenberg at the time I made a name. I was employee 3252. So part of moving into the HR function was to do my part to ensure that people didn't experience that. My employees didn't experience that. You know, we are more than just the pages on our desk. We're more than just our W2s or I9s, our job descriptions. We're human, and every human is different, and that's what creates the culture. When we can all come together as humans with our differences, with our different complexities, and be able to create something amazing and magical.
• 3:59
  Speaker A: You know, I know you and I probably can speak for hours on this, but the. And the ability for each human to change the dynamics of a team from a competitive advantage with a brand is something that is fascinating to me in my work because I see how differently the neurological circuitry of a neurodiverse brain takes in the world. So if the person on a team is able to share that, that broadens the scope of what the company can provide to a customer base, if I'm saying that correctly. How do you harness that and foster that as the leader of people? Like, how do you do that?
• 4:44
  Speaker B: So for me, it's by. By meeting the employee where they're at and by seeing them for who they are, because every employee is different. And one thing I learned very early in my career is everyone learns differently, Everyone processes differently, Everyone takes in information differently. And with neurodiversity and neurodivergent employees, it's same, but to a different degree. Right? So it's about meeting them where they are and. And talking, speaking with them, asking them, what can I do to make this easier for you to. To help you understand better so you can thrive the same as I would for truly any employee. Because everybody learns differently. Everyone takes in information differently. And like I said, I learned that really early on in. In my career, you know, through my own work and mistakes and. And learning not to make those same mistakes, Same mistakes again. You know, I think we, growing up in our generation, we were taught, you keep hearing, think outside the box. Think outside the box.
• 5:55
  Speaker A: Right, right.
• 5:57
  Speaker B: Think outside the box. Like you know, move, push, push away like the proverbial glass ceiling. Think outside the box. And you know, you would do that with my neurodiverse employees just as I would any other employee. And they just have a different way of thinking outside the box, which is such a competitive advantage. That's what I'm seeing it in a, in a, in a different way than you or I could ever see it.
• 6:22
  Speaker A: Right. I think you know what you learn maybe whether it's through your own career as being like you said, from a store manager of a brand to where you are now, human first approach. And what I think that there's a lot of societal pushback to, you know the buzzword, the buzz acronym of the year, dei. It's humans first about growth, not humans first about siloing and separating. And that the ability for. In a neurodivergent brain is global. Like you're going to find that people process, see the world, take in sensory experiences. In particular with a brand like Mallon and Goats, where all of your senses are being used for your brand. Right. I would guess that um, it's different than clothing. Right. There's a lot of things that, with obviously textures and, and stuff but with, with the, with the scent aspect of a brand and that is global. Like you, you can go anywhere in the world and talk about the way that your senses take in a space or a country or a culture that doesn't change from a person that has. That is of Japanese origin to a person that is Greek that their brain. A Greek neurodiverse person and a Japanese neurodiverse person and a American raised neurodiverse woman with late diagnosed adhd. We do not have the typical brain structures to take in the senses of something typical. And that's a good thing.
• 8:04
  Speaker B: Right? I agree. I fully agree. And I think it's time to, to embrace that and to really. I know I keep going back to like thinking outside that box, but it's so true. It's time to embrace that and really think outside the box and understand that, you know, neurodivergent employees or customers just see things in a different way and want them to have the same positive experience that a non neurodiverse customer or employee will have.
• 8:38
  Speaker A: And I'm really glad that you brought up that phrase think outside the box because hearing you say that, I'm in fourth grade again, I am literally in fourth grade again in Mrs. Barandowski's class going, yeah, okay, I think differently. Yes, okay, think outside the box, Sarah. But I Already was thinking outside the box. Cause I was seeing the world differently. So that was the first, my first foray into being accepted or understanding how the brain's acceptance works. But now that you get to lead from the knowledge of growing up with that phrase as I did, to now leading from that phrase and the broadening yet, I guess all that to say what a beautiful position you're in from a global brand sense.
• 9:15
  Speaker B: It's really true. I am, I am very lucky that, you know, that has kind of stuck with me. And that's how I, I lead.
• 9:25
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 9:25
  Speaker B: And I lead my HR team here and I lead the company and the brand in general as the culture gatekeeper.
• 9:33
  Speaker A: Yes. What is the best way to break that cultural fit hiring mentality? What is that best way? What does that look like in the process? I mean it's so easy, Andrea. It's just like the easy. It's the easy button. Right?
• 9:46
  Speaker B: It's. It truly. The thing is though, it truly is. When you're looking at resumes or job applications, one thing that we do here is we look at every resume. We don't just, you know, look at the first five that like float through. Right. We do, we truly honestly look at every resume and like screen that way. And I think when you're hiring, you're looking for, I don't look for culture fit. Right. In the stereotypical way someone looks will say, well, you have to be a fit for culture. I've worked for brands in, in my life where it was very important like you have to fit, fit a certain box. Right. But that's, that's not how I hire. Right. What makes the culture here, where I am currently so special is that we're all different. We're all, we're not cookie cutter. Right. We all come from amazing different backgrounds and we, they were, everyone here was hired because they were the best person for the job. Right. And our culture, it's. It's about tolerance. It's about, you know, acceptance. It's about kindness. It's about, I mean the values here are incredible. It's empathy, humanity. And the brand actually lives and breathes the values and actions then versus them just being on a poster like by the bathroom.
• 11:09
  Speaker A: Can you say those three words again?
• 11:10
  Speaker B: Because I think it's empathy, humanity, fight.
• 11:13
  Speaker A: Empathy, humanity, fight. Can you talk about each one of those for me and what that looks like for you on a day to day? Because I think those are really powerful. The fools scope of someone's humanity. Yeah. And that doesn't change when they go and are seeking out employment. So talk to me about those three words that I love those.
• 11:33
  Speaker B: I mean they were fantastic. And it's part of the reason that I decided to come to work here at Mallon and Getz was the values and the fact that I could see through, you know, my interview process that the values were actually alive in the brand and actioned in the brand versus just we need to have some value. So it's not good, right? And I think every day coming in like I lead with empathy, right? And empathy is different than sympathy. And I think absolutely sometimes confuse that. But I will always lead with empathy. Even if I think what you've done is not the right thing, I will still lead with. Lead with empathy. And that's how we, you know, want our leaders here at the company to build out their teams and to, you know, lead their teams and develop their people is with, with empathy. And that goes hand in hand with humanity. Like seeing the person, right? Knowing that, you know, you know, one of the things that I was taught when I first entered the workforce is you leave your emotions at the door, you leave your feelings at the door. You don't bring your, your personal private into work with you. That's impossible.
• 12:56
  Speaker A: It's impossible.
• 12:58
  Speaker B: We have emotion, right? And that's where the humanity comes in. Knowing that every person is not just, you know, a robot here to work for you from 9 to 5 at the lab, right? They have things that happen in their lives.
• 13:12
  Speaker A: Their mental load, I always say their mental load. Exactly how that can change and look so different from person to person. And I always say it's relative. You know, even as a special needs mom and I am around mothers of only typical children all the time, I can absolutely understand the relative stress it still can feel from the adrenaline cortisol rushes of stress in one's body. The same. And you're. And basically is what you're saying is that everyone's coming to work with the same, you know, stress hormones or life life stressors. It just looks just how they are experienced is different.
• 13:55
  Speaker B: Exactly. It looks different on every. Everyone. And like I was saying earlier, the way people learn is different. The way people handle their stressors, their personal lives are different. Some people are really good at like shutting it off at the door. Other people can't. Right? And there's triggers and things of that nature. And it's about leading with that humanity and understanding that every person is different. And the way we handle certain things are different, the way we handle stressors are different. And we need to Leave with that. Right.
• 14:26
  Speaker A: How do you, how do you begin the discussion from a HR point of view with an employee that shares that they have neurodiversity, that they have ADHD or that they have dyslexia and that it's. Or one of the many other diagnoses that falls under that umbrella, being given that information. How do you take that in to disseminate in a way that is binding? This is about a company, like you said, who is based on these wonderful values that is living them, taking in that person, sharing and spreading it appropriately within their team, allowing for the sensitivity, allowing for that empathy and then knowing at the end of the day, this is about a growth of a brand. How, how does that work? Because I, I can see the fire and I can hear how passionate you are about the. What does that actually look like? Maybe on a, on a stage, simple day to day scale.
• 15:24
  Speaker B: I always let them lead and I tell them that this is your show and I will follow your lead. We will disseminate the information as to how you see fit. You don't want anyone but me to know. That is more than fine. You feel that it's valuable for your team to know. You know, I will follow that too. I always advise that. Yes. Do, do I personally think that is valuable for your team to know? 100% I do. But at this point in time it's your decision. So I, I will follow your lead. I will also give you all the help that, that you need to ensure that you're able to operate at your best.
• 16:05
  Speaker A: Right.
• 16:06
  Speaker B: You know, whether, you know, if it's dyslexia, do you need extra time to get through anything? Extra time for to pull the decks or to pull the numbers or with reporting. Right. So what do you need from me to ensure that you are working at.
• 16:25
  Speaker A: Your best at every point? Right. You shared that the target audience for Mallon and Getz is global and it's a global simplicity with high efficacy values. It's a broad scope to include the everyness of everyone.
• 16:44
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 16:44
  Speaker A: And yet as someone who has children that have high sensitivities to things, knowing that a brand leads with the simplicity of its efficacy actually is very calming. You. We're going to let it, the simplicity and efficacy speak for itself and also have a beautiful branding and beautiful simplicity that shows that simple things can be beautiful too.
• 17:13
  Speaker B: 100%. I mean the brand is very lucky. You know, our brand was founded 20 years ago and our founders are pioneers in this space. We're one of the first gender neutral brands it was based on simplicity. Like your amazing, beautiful product in its simplest.
• 17:33
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 17:35
  Speaker B: And you know, we're very lucky to have been based on that and to not have that through time washed out. Right. There's so many brands out there that were founded on such a simple ethos. And through time, as they scale or grow, the beauty of how they started has been completely obliterated, for lack of a better term. I'm so lucky, and we are so lucky that this brand is not one of those, that we still have that simplicity and beauty of the brand that founders started 20, 20 plus years ago. You know, I. Globalness of the. I was just in Hong Kong on vacation and I got to visit one of our stores.
• 18:24
  Speaker A: So cool over there.
• 18:25
  Speaker B: And, you know, it was just incredible to see how our product has the same effect on customers in Hong Kong as it does in my west coast stores, my east coast stores, my London stores. Like, to take a step back, like, I kind of just stood outside the store and observed it for a bit.
• 18:43
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 18:44
  Speaker B: And then stood inside the store and just like observed the customers and whatnot. And it was the same magic there that you get in any one of our stores. And that's just incredible. And it's so rare for that consistency.
• 19:01
  Speaker A: That's something my partner Mark and I talk about a lot because it's based on his work too. Is humans first always. And that even as a global community, the founders of Mounting Getz could have desired this. They probably did desire this. But it took a very conscious crafting to allow that to go from a smaller new company 20 years ago to where it is now to where you can go in as a global director of HR from Hong Kong to London and actually say that the customers coming in there are experiencing a similar simplicity and sensory validating atmosphere. That is, it's so conscious about humans. Neurodiversity is global. So in doing that, you are actually broadening your consumer base. You're broadening where you can be competitive against other brands a hundred percent.
• 20:03
  Speaker B: I think our. Our experience in our stores is built out so you can experience it with all your different senses. So everyone can enjoy coming into one of our stores. You know, from, you know, the hand massages to the candles being lit. So you have that ascent, you know, when you walk into the store to, you know, a face scrub being put on to, you know, there's just so much to explore when you come into our stores. And there's so much for everyone there. Whether, you know, it's. It's understanding, you know, having a neurodiverse customer come in and understanding, you know, you know, the. The touch aspect. Right. Or someone coming in and the scent aspect. There's so much there to be able to wrap our arms around everyone.
• 20:59
  Speaker A: Do you find that as a whole in the HR industry that there is a greater study and research from just like a role that you are in with your peers in different brands? There's curiosity around it. Do you find that there's curiosity?
• 21:14
  Speaker B: There definitely is. I think there's much more curiosity around it now as we talk about it. It's interesting to me because, as you know, I've talked about coming on the podcast and I've talked about you coming to speak to my employees or. And how we've met in our professional, you know, world. And I said, oh, well, she's a neurodiversity advocate and people are. What's neurodiversity? What is that? What does. What does that word mean? So it's a conversation starter. It's a. Right, right. And I think there's so much more curiosity around what that means and what that word encompasses and entails.
• 21:52
  Speaker A: That's one of my. It's probably becoming my 2025 word of the year, because curiosity is based in asking questions, you and I on. On paper. To go back to the first thing that you said on paper, we probably have a lot of overlap. We probably have a lot of things that are, like, blaringly different just from a culture and homes that we were raised in and the educational paths that we took. And at the same time, I believe that it's our curiosity as professionals that has allowed for collaboration and the openness to bring that to other people, to your teams. For me to stay curious, it does make me laugh. One of the companies that came back to me, it has for the second year is actually a major. Is a global construction company.
• 22:38
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 22:39
  Speaker A: If you would have told me two years ago when I first began this foray into speaking and was with you at your former brand, I never in a million years would have been like, you know what, that the people that are building the JPMorgan Chase building, they really want a neurodiversity speaker. But that. But their. But that mindset that is now infiltrating a lot of different industries, too. And so by staying curious, even companies that might not might have more of a rigidity expectation from those that they interact with, they're not. They're actually opening up their own employee groups to ask questions and stay curious.
• 23:19
  Speaker B: And I think it's incredible. I Truly do. I think so many different industries have shifted throughout the years and I, I honestly think that a lot of it has to do with this new generation coming into the workplace. There they look at work in a completely different way than we were taught to and the generation above us was taught to. And it's so interesting to see the shift as. Cause, you know, overlapping. Right. It's so interesting to see the shift in the thought process of the new generation. What's important to them in, in the workplace. The humanity. Seeing everybody as a human. Right. The mental health is huge for this new generation coming in a true work life balance for this new generation. And I think they've truly and will truly change the face of work and how what we do. And they truly see every human as a human and not just people.
• 24:26
  Speaker A: And we're like the sandwich generation right now. Like we are actually in the middle place of these generations and in the position where you are leading in the companies, I, I always find that when I stay curious to older generations, to their experience about their career trajectory and what that looked like because a younger generation stays curious to theirs, they might understand why it's good to stay curious to different neurological differences. Right. Because they, they were told to push that down not because it was wrong, but because that didn't fuel brand awareness, that didn't fuel the numbers, that didn't grow, that wasn't competitive. But I think when you allow for the employees to stay curious about each other that it validates that, that not no way is wrong, it's just that's the evolution of life. And you know, companies in general, a.
• 25:20
  Speaker B: Hundred percent and they also work better. You work better together when you understand who you're working with and you understand the way they think, you know, and you, you, you figure out a good way to work with them. That is what's going to push forward the roi. That's what's gonna put push forward brand awareness.
• 25:38
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 25:39
  Speaker B: You know, you know, just because the older Generation work till 10pm every night and when it doesn't make it right.
• 25:48
  Speaker A: No, but they did that and that was their lived experience and how that affects and informs them to make decisions now and is valid. You know, we cannot like it. Or Gen Z doesn't have to like that or they might not like that. Gosh. Well, you didn't ever hire anyone that was on the spectrum or you never even thought to include something as silly as a choice of light in an office. Right. That might allow for a better work environment. We don't know what we don't know. Yep. And as I do really believe that specifically in the role that you are, you are someone, and I'm so thankful for this. You are someone who knows better and chooses to do better. And that takes energy. And we all have. We don't have bound. We don't have endless energy. We are, we are not machines, as you said at the beginning. And we don't have a bucket of endless energy. There is a bandwidth of it. And so I thank you for being someone of a. And a pioneer within retail and branding that is saying. And you are choosing to use this energy in this capacity to forward it from a global scale of human resources. So I, I hope that you really do take stock in that. And, and as I say to my children every day, and I'm gonna say it to you, I'm. I'm proud of you as someone to know you, but you should be really proud of yourself. You really should. You really should. Because 13 years in an industry like this, you have learned a lot.
• 27:16
  Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I have.
• 27:18
  Speaker A: You're like, I guess I can see the Rolodex in your, like the, the, the scenes playing in your mind of like, what you've seen.
• 27:23
  Speaker B: I've definitely. Lot. And I've learned about how to expend my energy. I, I like how you talked about the energy and, you know, not having.
• 27:35
  Speaker A: It's not endless.
• 27:36
  Speaker B: Endless or limitless energy.
• 27:38
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 27:38
  Speaker B: I've. I've learned how in my 13 years to really focus in on what is right. You know, I think in my industry, there's a lot of grip. Right. There's black and white. When it comes to legal issues, we're always going to have that. Right. Black and white legal issues. There's labor law, employment law, for reasons.
• 27:58
  Speaker A: Right.
• 27:59
  Speaker B: But I. My world lives in a lot of gray, and a lot of it comes down to what is morally right.
• 28:07
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 28:07
  Speaker B: And that is where I want to expend my energy, what is morally right for my employees, for my business, for.
• 28:17
  Speaker A: Me leading like that. Because I, you know, Matthew McConaughey wrote it in his book or he says. He says while talking about his book in some podcasts, he said, I looked at myself in the mirror and said, McConaughey, the only person you're not getting away from is yourself. So you. So right. So in the role that you, that you live and do every day, no one else wakes up as Andrea Lee. No one else wakes up as Andrea Lee. Who. Senior Global Director of Human Resources for Malin and Goetz and you get to be the best version of that because you have a company that's supporting it from the ground up of humans. I think that the company is so successful globally and is giving the experience that they obviously, as founders, had hoped to give on a global scale. You are going to enmesh neurodiversity within the company culture, likely as beautifully as the brand itself evolved, which is, this is just who we are as people, and it's as simple as that.
• 29:18
  Speaker B: It. You're so right. It's as simple, as simple as that.
• 29:23
  Speaker A: And, you know, I. Now I'm just thinking I can't wait to bring Millie into one of your, you know, brick and mortar stores, because she loves sampling, you know, lotions and things. And I know that it can be overwhelming, but it's also so much fun for her when you smell a great combination of essential oils and scents. And now plotting out my next fenced in playground New York City visit, plus a Malin Getz store.
• 29:49
  Speaker B: You have to come in. I mean, Millie will have so much fun. You can see she will have so much fun in her.
• 29:56
  Speaker A: You know, it's funny. She's becoming very prolific on her device. She might actually have comments about the lettering and the packaging over the actual product that it's contained in. She might say M A L I N plus sign. Plus sign. Plus sign. I hope that you just really take stock in the work that you're doing because it's powerful. And I'm so thankful to be aligned with you and to see where you go within your career because you get to wake up as Andrea every day. And Malin and Goetz is so, so, so, so blessed to have you as a. As an employee and your team as well.
• 30:34
  Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for that. I mean, seeing you on your journey the last two years. Oh, has been incredible. It truly has been incredible to watch what you've been able to do and watch what you've been able to build and really get your voice out there with a message that needs to be heard. So I am just beyond proud of you, Sarah.
• 30:54
  Speaker A: Well, thank you. Well, the conversations, like I said, the conversations that we get to have that allow for a greater understanding. Well, I'm excited to come in. I'm excited to see the conversations that. That we will have live. But I'm most importantly, really thankful for what Melon and Getz does as a brand. It should be the gold standard of what actual inclusion looks like. It's a faceless entity, and it's a feeling, and that's really hard to harness, but y' all have done it beautifully. Thank you. So until next time on the Inchtones podcast.