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What Shia LaBeouf Gets Wrong About Joy · Pastor John Piper's answers

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  Happy Memorial Day today for those of you here in the States. Last time
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  we looked at the sanctifying power of Christ on the Cross. That was episode
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  twenty forty eight in our Bible reading together. We've been reading Mark fifteen recently
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  about the death of Christ, so it's been a theme for us, and
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  today we returned to the Cross by doing something different today. Pastor John,
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  I want you to respond to a viral video clip going around from a pretty
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  well known actor named Shilah buff He's thirty seven. He was converted to Roman
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  Catholicism in recent years. He starred in the twenty twenty two film Padre Pio,
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  a movie named after a Catholic priest, a mystic and so called venerated
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  saint. Not long ago, in an interview, the actor was discussing the
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  connection between Christ's suffering and his joy, and it generated some emails for you
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  all asking for your response. But before we get to what he said,
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  footnote a few caveats. It should first be said that the New Testament never
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  speaks of individuals as saints. That's a Catholic myth saints, that's a corporate
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  title for all Christians. And I'm unsure if this actor understands the gospel that
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  Christ paid for the guilt of our sin by satisfying the wrath of God,
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  he tends to speak of the cross as more of a moral model. Christ
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  sied mainly as an example for us, and he's obviously very comfortable with images
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  of Christ, crucifixes and paintings. Several factors I just want to acknowledge at
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  the front end of this episode and just set aside for now. I don't
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  want to get into any of those. As Shai spoke, my mind went
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  to Hebrews twelve to two, a text that you brought up in twenty five
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  episodes on the podcast over the years, Pastor John, So I can see
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  why listeners want you to weigh in and respond to what was said. I'll
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  read what he said and then ask you, on behalf of those listeners who
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  emailed, what does this actor get right and what does he get wrong about
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  the joy of Christ on the cross. Here's what he said. When I
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  look at Christ on the cross, I think, hmm, is that a
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  joyful man? As he bleeds out and dies on a cross for humanity?
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  Is that man joyful? And I think the answer is yes, that even
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  in his suffering. That's what Christ represents for me, meaningful suffering. The
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  story of Christ is that God became man for our betterment, So that means
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  that He is the ultimate example, the supreme priest, the ultimate redeemer.
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  If I look at Christ's on the cross, I think that's very instructive.
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  You don't see a lot of smiley faced Christ's on the cross. You don't
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  see Christ on the cross dying and laughing with a plum in joy, an
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  ultimate joy. But I think they should make some Christ on the cross in
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  ultimate serenity and ultimate joy. They always make this sad face, and that
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  seems stupid. It seems like it's not deep enough. Like the artists who
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  manufacture those crucifixes, it's almost like they're not seeing the full story. And
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  the full story I believe is that Christ is in maximum joy in that moment.
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  He is fully in his purpose. If you can tap into how you
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  can use your suffering to help other people, that is maximum joy. What
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  strikes you, passor John. What strikes me first is that I'm not sure
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  what he means by joy and what he means by suffering. Even it's hard
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  to respond with a clear yes, or no to what he's saying. When
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  he seems to switch categories on me, I'll try to point out what I
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  mean by this ambiguity by suggesting several positive responses, so I'll try to be
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  positive before I'm negative. For example, he uses the phrase meaningful suffering,
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  and I can't escape the impression that he might mean that this phrase meaningful suffering
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  is synonymal with joyful suffering. He says, quote, is that man on
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  the cross joyful? And I think the answer is yes, that, even
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  in his suffering, that's what Christ represents for me, meaningful suffering. So
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  he switches, He switches from joyful to meaningful, which is what throws me.
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  Well, Christ, Christ's suffering certainly was meaningful, right, everybody would
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  agree with that. Oh, my goodness, his suffering carried more meaning in
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  it than all the suffering of all the human beings in the world combined,
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  because it carried in it the salvation of millions of people that nobody else's suffering
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  could do. So that's absolutely right. The suffering of Christ was not meaningless.
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  It was infinitely meaningful. And that if that's what he means by joyful,
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  it's hard to disagree. I see at least two other things that are
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  positive. He says, Christ at that moment of suffering is fully in his
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  purpose. That's almost the same as saying the suffering was meaningful, That is,
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  it was fully purposeful. He was not being frustrated at that moment in
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  his designs. He was accomplishing exactly what he came to do. Indeed,
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  it is a satisfying thing to accomplish what you were designed to do. We
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  all would agree with that. I'm doing what I was made to do.
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  I'm doing what I came to do. Then he applies that to us,
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  and he says, if you can tap into how you can use your suffering
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  to help other people, that is maximum joy. Quote. Well, the
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  true part of that is that Jesus did say it is more blessed to give
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  than to receive. Living to make others glad in God is certainly a glad
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  way of living, even through suffering. But the question I have at this
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  point is whether the moment of suffering, the moment of suffering, is the
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  moment of maximum joy. That's my question, And one one biblical obstacle to
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  thinking that way is Hebrews twelve two, which says Jesus for the joy that
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  was set before him endured the cross. Notice it does not locate the pinnacle
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  of Jesus' joy at the point of the cross, but on the other side
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  of the cross, at the cross the joy was set before him. To
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  be sure, Hebrews eleven teaches that by faith the substance of things hoped for
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  by faith, the substance of that future joy can be tasted now if it
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  can, and is even in our suffering. But that does not change the
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  fact that the text says that what sustained Jesus was a confidently expected future experience
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  of joy, whatever partial measure of it he might have tasted on the cross.
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  Another biblical factor that we have to think take into account is that there
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  are different kinds of experiences of joy and different degrees of joy, and not
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  just because of sin. I don't think joy goes up and down only because
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  sin enters in For example, in Luke fifteen, we are told that there
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  is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety nine who
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  don't need repentance. So there's very great joy in heaven, and there's great
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  joy in heaven, more joy and less more, And it's not because there's
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  sin in heaven, right, there is no sin in heaven. That's not
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  what causes the difference. So it's fair to say, isn't it that the
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  sinless Christ may have tasted a kind of joy and a degree of joy as
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  he suffered on the cross, but that there was a much fuller joy of
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  a different kind, even yet to be experienced beyond the cross. So it
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  seems to me that Labouf may be saying too much when he writes that some
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  crucifixes should depict quote ultimate serenity and ultimate joy. I think any ordinary use
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  of the word serenity would simply not fit the hours of jesus horrific suffering.
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  I just don't think serenity is what you would see, nor should you explain
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  with that word. I think that would diminish the reality of his agony.
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  And I think to use the word ultimate to describe his joy is probably a
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  failure to take into account that there will be more joy on the other side
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  of death and resurrection and ascension. Another biblical problem I have with the way
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  Libeff expresses things is that I think there's probably a greater mystery at the moment
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  of propitiation on the cross than he realizes. When Jesus says, my God,
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  My God, why have you forsaken me? That is the cry of
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  the damned. He is, at that moment experiencing the outpouring of the wrath
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  of God upon the sin of all his people. And I say it is
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  a mystery, because I don't think we can give a sufficient account for how
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  he can experience that damnation and joy simultaneously, not just at least, I
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  don't feel competent to rise to that level of sufficient explanation of what happened in
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  that moment in the heart and mind of our Lord Jesus. I'm not saying
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  it's impossible. I'm saying we need to tread very carefully here so as to
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  give full measure to Christ's mental and spiritual agony under the Father's displeasure, even
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  as we try to give proper measure to the fact that in himself Jesus had
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  a clear conscience and he was doing the absolutely right thing. It was meaningful,
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  it was purposeful, it was a loving thing to do. And maybe
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  I should say one more thing before we stop our reflections. The mystery of
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  Christ's experience. Indeed, the Father's experience as Christ died on the cross is
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  expressed, I think, in Ephesians five to two. In another way,
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  it says Paul says Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a
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  fragrant offering and sacrifice to God, A fragrant offering, fragrant, sweet,
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  smelling, pleasing, smelling. I take that to mean that God the Father
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  was able in some mysterious way to pour out wrath on his beloved son and
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  know at the same time with approval that this sacrifice was beautiful, fragrant,
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  pleasing, righteous, glorious, achieving everything that the two of them had designed
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  and intended. So, in summary, what I'm pleading for is a careful
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  expression of the reality of Jesus suffering, the reality of being damned and forsaken,
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  the reality of knowing that more joy lay ahead. All of that to
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  temper any effort to describe the Lord's experience on the cross as ultimate joy.
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  Yeah, excellent. Thank you for taking up this topic, Pastor John,
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  and thanks for joining us today on this holiday in the States. As you
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  flip through the new APG book, you'll see all the ways we've talked about
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  election and predestination Over the years. The fallout of this doctrine of God's sovereignty
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  over who is saved in the end leads to many many questions about whether this
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  is fair and whether this excuses the non elect from their unbelief. You'll see
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  that in the new APG book on pages three fifty five to three sixty four.
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  We're back to that theme next time. If someone is not elect,
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  how can they be guilty for non believing? I'm Tony Ranky. We'll see
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  you Thursday.