Latest / Founder F**K ups / Don't Hire Your Friends, My Intern Was Texting Clients Behind My Back | Firdaus Mohamed, GoBarakah
Transcript
- Ben Bagg: Fedea spent over 20 years inside Malaysia's banks and insurers, Bank Islam, Zurich, Etika, Ambank, corporate strategy, credit committees, Zakat committees, a career built on one skill, assessing risk. Then he left to build Gobaraka, a fintech that turns donations into trackable, traceable e-vouchers. And this year his team became the first social exchange operator appointed by the Securities Commission. But when it came to building his own team, The risk expert did what so many founders do. He hired the people he trusted, friends, family, and it turned his office toxic. Today we're getting into why the people closest to you can be your worst hires, what it actually cost him, and the rule he runs his company on now. Hire slow, fire fast. Fedeus, welcome to the pod. Firdaus: Ben, how's it going? Yeah. Ben Bagg: It's good. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. And thanks for putting up with my two takes. Firdaus: no no worries, mate, no worries, all good. Ben Bagg: So look, you were you spent two decades in in finance, right? In banks and insurers Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: managing risk. why didn't you kinda ma do that sort of same discipline when you f were going about your first hire at Goborak? Why weren't you thinking about that risk? Firdaus: Yeah. yeah, I think as an entrepreneur you have to like manage your resources and then you have to do things pretty fast. And then Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: like I think the the the lowest hanging fruit when you wanna hire is always the people that you know. And the I Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: g I guess the closest thing that you know is are your friends and perhaps some of them you've known for twenty, thirty years and you have an impression of what they are on an outside looking in, but when Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: you hire but when you hire them mate, it's It's it's not what it seems. Ben Bagg: I think this is like the the first founder fuck up every single person makes. I mean I made I I made the same mistake too. I hired a few friends and it was an absolute catastrophe and I f and and I get it. Like people you're also I bet when you were first coming up with this idea, you're telling your friends about it and you're talking to them over a beer or a dinner or and what have you and they get excited and then you're like, you should come join me. Like that's kind of the stuff that starts to happen, right? Firdaus: Yeah. Exactly. Like, I guess like one of our highest we had a chat over Hari Raya dinner and then yeah, and then it just like snowballed from them and then they were like, Yeah, I mean, would you be in and then suddenly from just sharing your idea it it turned to I think you're the best person to join me in this journey. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And and then we forget to do like an actual recruitment process and we're just like this guy is gonna have my bag. I trust him. Let's go. So take me back, Firdaus: Exactly. Ben Bagg: that first friend or family member you brought in, who were they to you? And obviously you can cut what you need to cut out, and why did it feel Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: like the obvious call at the time that perhaps it was this guy that you had Harry Riot in it with? Wha why did they feel so right at the time? Firdaus: Yeah, I mean I've I've I've before Go Baraka we've me and my missus had a FMCG company. But let's not talk about that 'cause that was a complete fuck up. but Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: but we'll talk about Go Baraka and Impact Rintas, right? Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: why we chose this person was because I've I knew this person from Uni Days. went Ben Bagg: Okay. Firdaus: to went to a really top five uni in in England, had really good results and then In that person's career, that person became a C suite level in a bank s so Ben Bagg: So wow. Firdaus: yeah, and then that person took a career break. so that career break, we thought that it was just the perfect time for that person to come and help us out, be Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: like our our number two at at the at the company. I guess looking from outside that the skill set kinda matched. Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. Firdaus: so yeah, that was the thought process behind it. Ben Bagg: Okay. So the idea was that this person has worked in banking for so long, they you know, probably a highly connected individual. and by coming in on the right hand they'd be able to really help you c create a lot of leverage, perhaps open some doors that you haven't been able to open yet. Firdaus: For sure. that that person is a C suite. So we would expect that person to do a lot of networking, a lot of business development. And I guess when you're a C suite, especially in that role that person was, we would expect that governance would be pretty good. it's it'll be like the bread and butter. But yeah, but so that was the the thought process behind it. Ben Bagg: Yeah. I mean it sounds like an obvious call, right? you Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: know. When did you first realise it wasn't working? Right? And and honestly, how long did you wait before you did anything about it? Firdaus: the the the we we knew from the f first month that it wasn't gonna work out because when it came to like technology stuff, she she ref that that person refused to shit, I I I said the gender. So I mean that person kinda like didn't wanna talk to our CTO and that person w would just go through me and then it'll Ben Bagg: Okay. Firdaus: be like yeah, it'll be like are we gonna put multi factor authentic authentication in the in the app and will be like why you asking me go ask the CTO whether that and then she'll be like, No, I'd rather talk to you and then that was like the first alarm bells that that was that was like okay s yeah, Ben Bagg: Mm-hmm. Firdaus: that was that was really, really odd. And then everything else you just went through me and not through the the respective person in the organisation. Ben Bagg: Right. So they started to obviously have some form of toxic way of communicating or they only felt like they should speak to you or the CTO and then fell out or you know, s something happened. Firdaus: Well th yeah, d well, my CTO's kinda like quite even tempered. It's just like my CTO was like wondering like why the fuck isn't this person like coming to me? Like why is this person going to you? Yeah, you know shit about technology. So why you why why why why you why Ben Bagg: Yeah, Firdaus: going through you? They should should go through me. You know, so yeah. and then and then like so in the end like my CTO wouldn't wanna talk to her shit to to that person about technology or about work and then I had to be the intermediary. So it it it became quite difficult. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And how long did it take you before you actually did anything about it? I mean, I know this was happening in your first month of working with this person, but you've also made a bet. And I imagine they weren't exactly the most cheapest hire because you're bringing someone who's obviously used to you know, a C suite level position, so you've probably Firdaus: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: brought them in on a relatively good good program. so how long did it take you before you did something about it? Firdaus: about three months. About three months and then we realized that this is just not working out. had a chat over coffee. I think that person as well spoke that I can't work with you. I love you as a friend, but Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: I don't think this is this is working out. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Do you think a lot of that the friendship side played a big part of it as well because you were predominantly friends and and then now Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: you're boss, like it's a it's a different lens to work with someone, right? And perhaps you don't want to tell each other the truth too, because it's your friend. So you don't want to like, friend, you're being shit, sorted out. And so we we look after them a little bit more than we probably would if it was just an employee where we're like, Hey, you need to pick it up. Firdaus: Yeah, I I mean I I guess that I don't really think so because there were also like in the three months, we would get into arguments, like at the end of the day, there are certain things that's that's my call, whether I want to proceed with it or not. And she and then that person would give me like a half an hour phone call, telling me like why I should do things or why I and then and then and then it'll be like Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. Firdaus: a passive aggressive, it'll be like, Yeah, but then again you're the boss, you decide. So so so and Ben Bagg: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Firdaus: then and then And then there was a point where I remembered where I I I had I had enough. I was hungry, I was tired, and I I just said, Yes, Ben Bagg: Yeah, well. Firdaus: yeah, yes, I'm the CO, I decide, and this is my decision. Yeah. Ben Bagg: I have gone through the exact same thing. You're g I'm tr I feel like I'm about to trauma fucking bond with you right now. Like I remember I hired Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: a friend of mine who and we were you know, we were we were he was a smart guy, a sales guy, and I had a sales organization, I brought him in and I remember exactly that. These thirty minute long conversations over whatever, some stupid decision making or a tiny decision. you're taking me back. Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: and so you said it's obviously these kinds of phone calls, are like sucking your energy, like they're taking you away from like just being able to do what you need to do, is in grow the business, scale the business, acquire customers for the business, partner with banks, call the securities commission, whomever. Like was it starting to this kind of individual co starting to impact your work, not just the relationships within the company? Firdaus: i it it didn't just affect my work, it affected the team's work as well because when whenever we would well there was this one time, I mean we we were supposed to go for a meeting. I didn't attend the meeting because she would come in instead of me because I thought she would she would be senior enough to handle it, right? the meeting Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: was supposed to start at nine. She came to the meeting at eleven. So and then 'cause she said that she was stuck in a jam. And then she just you know if you have like government meetings they would provide snacks and and and and biscuits and cake. She just came to eat the snacks and then and then afterwards my team would call me like, Boss, do you know that she came two hours late for the meeting? But then Ben Bagg: Well. Firdaus: again, yeah, exactly. So and then my my teammate knows that this person's my mate. And then they'd be like, Yeah, I know she's your mate, but do you know you gotta do something about this. This is this is not on. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah, I mean that's incredibly that that's all and you would expect very different things from a C suite. Like the l absolute lack of respect. Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: I don't know if that's because they came from a Tier One bank and had some form of arrogance behind them and that people used to wait for them if they were late. But who's Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: in traffic for two hours? Like Firdaus: Well she said sh she lives she lives in Cyberjaya, but but but but then again, I mean do you know y yeah y you're you're you Yeah, yeah, you Ben Bagg: You just left tape, let's be honest. Firdaus: you you come to a meeting like once a week. You y you gotta leave your house one hour earlier from the normal yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah, like that's that's crazy. And so so when that happened, what was your next step? Like is that when you finally were like, I can't do this anymore? Or was this just sort of the early stages of that toxic environment that was building within your office? Firdaus: No mate, I I I still gave that person chances. It's that's that's that's that's that's Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: that that hands the fuck up. Yeah. Again, it's it's it's difficult when it's a friend. It 'cause you Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: gotta like balance it out, right? 'Cause like you said, you you're gonna you're gonna meet that person for dinner, coffee, or whatever, and you you you don't you gotta make sure that the friendship in a way I wouldn't say come first, but yeah, you gotta consider that. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. They're at the barbecues and the the dinners and they know the wives and the husbands and the boyfriends and friends and the Firdaus: And and yeah, and and to make it worse to make it worse, I'm really good mates with the husband as well. We play football together. I'm I'm a goalie Ben Bagg: yeah. Firdaus: at I'm a goalie and he's my left back. So I I need him to take care of me. Ben Bagg: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, these these things have a a massive cost and obviously your team is starting to like feel the brunt of it, right? Because they Firdaus: Yes, yeah. Ben Bagg: what they're seeing in reality is you're protecting someone who doesn't give a shit. Firdaus: That's right. Ben Bagg: And so what you're telling your team and what culture you're creating is, well, it doesn't matter. You know, it's not your friends. Firdaus: Yeah. B because here I am he Yeah, 'cause here I am talking about building an A team with my my Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: my my staff and then when when they look at it, this is not even an B team player, this is probably a a Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: C or D. So I I don't I'm not like walking the talk. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And culture comes I mean culture does come from the top. It comes from the behaviours we accept and don't accept, right? Fundamentally I Firdaus: Exactly. Yeah. Ben Bagg: coach a lot of founders around this specific topic, especially when you've kind of got like even your first high you've got to be thinking about culture, to be honest. but when you're sort of three plus or five plus, that's where it really starts to to play a part. And like the every day you say it's okay friend you're literally telling your staff this is acceptable. Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: so w what do you think that sort of toxic environment then, like this c this culture of whatever, will show up two hours late, we'll have the snacks, we'll argue with Fideus over tiny decisions for 30 minutes on the phone. What what do you think that's like just show up in terms of the environment that your team were now in? Because they've got you going, BNA player Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: But protect my best friends. Firdaus: Yeah. But I I mean I mean luckily it didn't really I mean I didn't really see that it became that much of of a toxic environment because my team just decided to forget about this person. the Ben Bagg: Right. Firdaus: yes, so so so so going to the launch, that person just disappeared for two weeks. So didn't pick up the phone, didn't reply to WhatsApp. So when she finally came back, she just apologized, she said, I accidentally archived the WhatsApp group and therefore I I didn't see the message coming in. Everybody in the office just basically ignored her. just like, okay, forget you. we're just gonna do us. But there was another hire again I mean a second fuck up where I hired an intern who was a friend. yeah Ben Bagg: Okay. Firdaus: this this was even more toxic because this person was out of the job of the market for about 12 years. So this person was Ben Bagg: Wow. Firdaus: yeah. So this person was going through some really difficult personal and mental issue problems and needed a job. So we said, okay, we'll hire you as an intern, we'll pay you less than a thousand, but just to get you on your feet for three months, that you lose your ring rust, and then perhaps you can look for a job somewhere. Or and but if you're good, we'll we'll we'll absorb you, right? But this person was then you would understand that this twelve years gap in your employment was a big gap that that that that that you can't narrow it down. technology wise shit. discipline during meetings was shit. backstabbing, backbiting, that was really toxic. talking to clients behind our backs it's it's really bad. Ben Bagg: Wow. And when you obviously the way you've described this hire initially is it's a charity case. It's here's a friend Firdaus: Yeah, it was. Ben Bagg: in need, we're gonna they've got a massive gap, let's give them three months on their CV, it will be better for them. It's only an intern, light work, light impact, but actually the impact was a very different thing because the issues were what it sounds to me were up here, mental problems which made him or her do weird actions. How did you handle that then? Like was this a cause you were saying this actually became toxic, the backstabbing, the the way they were communicating, they're speak calling your customers or talking to your customers. How did that how did you manage that? Firdaus: Well basically we had to do a ceased and deceased order on her. So basically we had to ask her to write an apology letter and promise that to not contact our clients anymore, under threat of legal action. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Wow. And obviously she's calling your customers as a representative of your business. Firdaus: No. she's calling the customers as from an insider's knowledge kind of thing. I I'll I'll give you I'll give you an example. during meetings, Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: right? And then of course there are certain parts of the discussions that you might not agree with your customers, right? so Ben Bagg: Sure. Firdaus: it's it's it's all a negotiation, how how you negotiate things. It's all but it's all done in good faith. Everything above board. But then again, after the meeting, she would text the customer to say you what? I don't agree with Fairhouse. I don't agree with the co founders. They should have done it that way. They should have done it this way. If I was the boss, if I was the decision maker, I would do it this way. So it kinda like undermines it. So it yeah. Ben Bagg: So somebody who is employed by you on Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: your side of the negotiation table after the Firdaus: Yep. Ben Bagg: conversation is ended will go and contact Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: the customer and go, I disagree with my boss I think you were right. Firdaus: Yeah. And we only knew we only knew about this after her the three months ended and then because the the customer told us. Ben Bagg: Yeah. How was what was her role? Was it a sales or a customer success? Was it a customer fixed role? Firdaus: No, she she was just she was just an intern who was helping out our analysts, basically like getting documents or was this like a postman. Ben Bagg: She literally she literally had no right to be speaking to customers at all. So how how did Firdaus: No. Ben Bagg: you like was this cause you said it was after the internship ended. So actually this didn't end up being somebody you had to manage aka we had to fire her or just go call it a day. It was an after the fact that you're like, Holy shit, the crazy things this person's done, cease and desist letters were were what you used. But you didn't find out until after the fact. Firdaus: Correct. We didn't find out after after the fact because yeah the the the clerk basically one of my co founders had a heart to heart session with her. under the pretense of one of my co founders is is one of our directors as well. He'd be like, you can be honest, you can tell me anything, I won't tell Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: the other the other co founders, our discussion but but but but the minute he left the meeting was like, Fuck do you know what the what the fuck she's been doing? Like, you got you better sort this out. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how what kind of relationship did this person have to you? Was it a friend of a friend or a f a family friend or a fam a relative? Firdaus: she's a friend. She's a friend of the missus. Ben Bagg: Friend of the the missus. huh. How did that Firdaus: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: then go down like at your at dinner with the wife? Like, you know this friend Firdaus: Well Ben Bagg: of yours that you made me hire? Fucking out. You know what she's Firdaus: Yeah, yeah. Ben Bagg: done? Like w did that start to like eat into a little bit of your own family life? Like, 'cause that would have been frustrating. You've obviously done a favour for your wife, right? Firdaus: Right. remember I said about my CTO? My co Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: founder CTO? That's my missus. So Yeah, yeah. Ben Bagg: my god. That's another founder fucker. I'm joking, I'm joking. Firdaus: So so so so my missus was or my my CTO was like pissed about it. She'd be like, This is a friend that I was helping out. And then and then and then you know like and lo and behold, yeah. Ben Bagg: That's that's that's insane. And Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: I what happened to these two relationships that you've talked about so far? Like I'm gonna assume when you've getting legal cease and desist letters that relationship was done and dusted, gone, never spoken to again. Firdaus: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: How about your your your left back's wife? Did we someone could Google this like Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: like how about your defender's wife does did did that relationship get get to 'cause it was a bit more of a cleaner break? She obviously checked out with the two weeks of just not even showing up. Firdaus: I wouldn't say it improved, but was we're cordial. except no more dinners, coffees or invitations to Harry Roya dinners. But yeah, but we're we're friends. We're we don't we don't talk shit about each other. So it's just like it is what it Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah. Firdaus: is. It is what it is. It's just in the course of business. It's just that there was no fit. I mean it didn't really harm the business that much, to be honest with you. Whereas whereas the second one was was more sick. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. Yeah. An actual damaging Firdaus: Yeah, what's more serious. And and it's and it's coming from an intern, so it's okay, I'll I'll give you an example, right? I I love giving an example. do you know like when when your principal or your CEO or board of directors resigned, you have to inform the Securities Commission, right? Because you're regulated, 'cause th these are signatories and and it's mandatory. But she's an intern, right? And she goes like I've resigned, how come you haven't informed the securities commission that I resigned? A and at Ben Bagg: huh. Firdaus: And then we'd be like, but you're just an intern, so why do I need to inform securities? Exactly. And and then she would and Ben Bagg: You're not even an employee. It's not even an employee. Firdaus: and then she would go to the client and say like, you know, they're not they've got governance issue, they haven't informed securities commission that I resign. So it's it's it's those Ben Bagg: Did she feel did from her side did she feel like hard done by? Like had did she feel like and I imagine you have done nothing wrong, but did she feel like you guys had done something wrong to her that she felt the need to to damage you? Firdaus: Well yeah, you hit it you hit the nail in the head because she's like one of those where she gives ideas during meetings, but when you don't accept the ideas, it becomes toxic. You'd be like, Wow, how come you didn't take my you didn't accept my ideas? I deserve to be heard. Well well you dis well you were heard, but it's just that it's not what we what what we wanna do. yeah, so I mean like we have our ideas and you're not privy to certain discussions behind the scenes. So y you can't Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: sit so you can't say like, okay, we didn't just listen to you for the sake of not listening. There was actually a logic behind it. Ben Bagg: So this is where those mental health problems that the you know, they had been out of work for twelve years, there were mental health problems of reason why, which obviously you had some level of awareness before you hired. And I guess this is probably where the fuck up happened, is that someone who who's obviously then brought into these meetings, even into meetings where she can get contact information of your customers, and unfortunately because they felt you had hurt them they would hurt you back. That's that's that's a that's a really tough I think not many people will go through a similar scenario, but I think the lesson here of course is is do your due diligence, right? Like even if you even if you're hiring a friend or an intern, Firdaus: But but Ben to be to be fair, right, if you look at her education, she was the best student at her college and then the government sent her to do international baccalaureate in Wales. and then she went to a really good uni. her first job was with one of the big fours. So the the track record was there, except the twelve years gap. Ben Bagg: No, no, no, no, I hope not. Firdaus: Haha you probably know the person. Ben Bagg: I'll ask you after the recording. Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: okay. I think I think the I had a a a a client that I coached who took a bet on someone whose reference check actually came back saying like these guys are just a really bad people person. They do not work well with others, they're like and they hired them anyway and then felt it immediately and like sometimes even when we do the due diligence we we fuck it up. Firdaus: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: how obviously perhaps you're not hiring your friends anymore, but I'm sure the way you recruit and has very much shifted. Like what do you think I mean what does your hiring process look like now? Like wal walk me through sort of how you do your D D of people so that you don't have Firdaus: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: these random interns trying to fuck up your life. Firdaus: Usually our hires begin with recommendations from people that that they they've worked with at uni or at work and then we meet this people for this person for coffee, once or twice for coffee, just to find out the vibe, whether we can work with each other. And during the coffee we just like try to poke them a bit to see h how the reaction would be. And then we have a formal interview. and then now the the employment is really structured. It's like three months probation period and and then six and then a contractual period for a year and then we'll we'll assess it from from from then on. but at every stage there's strict KPI. If you don't meet your KPI we could terminate the the the relationship without any yeah any issues. Yeah. Ben Bagg: So there's a very clear ex expectations as well, right? So if you j if I join your team, I know what I'm supposed to deliver and what I'm not. I know if I'm winning or losing. And I think that's sometimes people forget that in a probationary period is that you've got to make sure everybody knows. It can't be a black box of what performance means. Firdaus: Yeah, exactly. It's it's all measurable by data. Like if we say okay, you need to you do two meetings in a week, which translates to X amount for a certain period, it's it's everything's measurable. So you you can't argue, you can't say like, I did this, I did that. It's like show me the show me the numbers. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. And then you can coach and mentor someone then. Like there's no hiding, there's no lies. It's just here's what the numbers are, here's where I think you can improve. Let's do it together. Right. it's it's much better. okay, that makes sense. And then you've also got that free six Twelve, right? Three months, Firdaus: Yeah, yeah. Ben Bagg: six months and a twelve month contract before you become a full time employee. is that because of the leg you know, the the difficulties when you're a small business of obviously hiring and firing in Malaysia, obviously there are a lot of legalities around that. it's very much in the employees' favor. Which by the way I totally agree with, but as a small business owner it's incredibly costly. I think it matters more for your big and C enterprises. But Firdaus: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Ben Bagg: is that kind kind of a security measure for for the business. Firdaus: that yes, but also how we re reward them in terms of their salary and remuneration. It's like okay, in the first three months you're on X amount, but if you go to six months we'll increase it by ten percent and if you go to twelve Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: months, we'll increase it by fifty percent. So so everything is measurable, yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah, okay. That that that sounds like a a a much better process. Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: Yeah. What would you say now if you were speaking to a friend who's b becoming a founder or or an early stage founder who's like, you know what, I'm thinking about hiring my best mate. What what would you what would you say to them now? Firdaus: Fucking do it. Don't don't don't don't do it. I mean seriously, don't do it. I mean if you value your friendship, just don't just don't do it. it it doesn't matter how close you were as a friend, but when you work with that person, the relationship completely becomes different because I mean you as an employer, you might know where's the line, right? and nine to five, employer, five till whatever, you're my mate. We go for drinks, coffee coffee or whatever. But some but some employees don't understand that distinction. Yeah. But but that being said, but Ben Bagg: Yeah. The lines blur to the li the lines will blur as well. I think I had I had a friend who worked for me, my last friend, and unf un unfortunately I knew their lifestyle. Firdaus: Right. Yep. Right. Ben Bagg: You know, I mean it wasn't a healthy lifestyle and I knew their lifestyle. and then I would see them underperform and then go and enjoy that lifestyle that they were living, which was not healthy. And that Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: then creates another vibe because like you're seeing everything you wouldn't normally see in an employee. Firdaus: Exactly, exactly. Ben Bagg: yeah, it's it's difficult. Firdaus: Yeah. So I mean but that being said, I've got employees who became really good friends. and then after they left, I still hang out with them, I still go to the gym Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: with them. I mean it's it's it doesn't become toxic or anything. Ben Bagg: But it's also because it began I think the relationship began as a professional working relationship that expanded out to a friendship rather than starting as your mate to you chat shit with about girls or whatever and and you Firdaus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: know, and now you're like, Hey, where's my KPIs? Like it's a it's a different Firdaus: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: it's a different transition, but going from where's my KPIs to, Hey, should we have a beer tonight? Like, haven't seen in a lot, it's a much easier transition. Firdaus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: And is there sort of like one rule of thumb that you've you've added 'cause I know that it's like the higher slow fire fast. Is the the higher slow rule that you would share to every founder, is that that coffee vibe D D check or is there something else added in there? Firdaus: I mean I mean it's not a one size fit all. But for us, after the fiasco that we had, our method kinda works. I've always had chats with other founders, how they deal with this. And I guess it's like like you said, it's a recurring theme. Like everybody just messes up when when they hire, especially when you're a first time founder, right? You don't know I mean when when you was you said like how come like w when I was in a bank, I I had all this risk management, but when it's when it became like my own business, it it's just like It it's something new, right? When you're at the bank you've got HR to do it. And if something happens, Ben Bagg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Firdaus: we just call HR, I can't work with this person anymore, like transfer them out Ben Bagg: Okay. Firdaus: or whatever, right? But you can't do it with your own business. So it's something it's Ben Bagg: Agreed. Firdaus: a new skill it's a new skill that that that you're learning on the go. Ben Bagg: Especially when you come from a big like big company, like a bank typically over bloated, overbuilt, overhired, over processed by design, whereas a startup Firdaus: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Ben Bagg: is a scrappy motherfucker, like Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: a different beast. Like in fact, most people I've seen that come out of MNCs or like large enterprises to go and work at startups, they fail. They like they never s they never survive. The the ones that do are the founder who came out and just have domain expert, they're trying to build something. because they have like this absolute passion for what they're doing. But like someone who was like the C-suite of a bank coming to work at a startup is a rude fucking awakening of what the real world is. Firdaus: Yeah. It's do you know like w when when when you're at when you're when you're a f startup founder, right, every single penny counts, right? And and Ben Bagg: Yeah. Firdaus: and like even an extra month of worthless hire eats into your burn rate and you'll be like, Fuck I'm I'm I'm burning this much and like nothing is coming back. And then and then when you when when when it comes the first of every month when you want to transfer the salary and you'll be like, Shit, I hate every single fiber doing this. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Bagg: Why am I why am I paying this person? God damn it. It's another lens as well when you're looking at cash flow, you're looking at the payroll going out, you're looking at the bank balance near empty. Like many of us are like we're fucking on the breadline. You know, banks Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: ain't worrying about that. If the bank prints the money for Christ's sake, you know, like Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: then they're not worried about median payroll, you know. Firdaus: Yeah. Ben Bagg: but we we worry about that stuff and Yeah, it's a it's another end. Fideas, thank you so much for coming on the pod and and sharing your story. and yeah, I'm sure many founders will follow your fuck up and many Firdaus: Ha ha ha. Ben Bagg: will hopefully learn from it before they make it. Thank you for coming on. Firdaus: Yeah. Yeah. cheers mate. lovely, lovely time. It's a bit like a therapy session. Ben Bagg: I love it. All right, till the next one. Firdaus: Right, cheers mate.