Latest / Pod Therapy / #440: Burned out Social Worker, Dismissive Therapist

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#440: Burned out Social Worker, Dismissive Therapist · Pod Therapy

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  Speaker 1: For around fabulous Las Vegas.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: No, this is.
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  Speaker 1: POD's therapy, real people, real problems, and real therapists. You
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  Speaker 1: can submit your questions anonymously at podtherapy dot net or
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: email us at pod Therapy Guys at gmail dot com.
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  Speaker 1: And now broadcasting from the s J and the Ruckus
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  Speaker 1: podcastings Coy Pond Studio. Bullshit, say Jim, that's Whitney Nick.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: It's time for pod therapy. Thank you, Nick. That was
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: an excellent introduction. And actually when real Nick arrives, or
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Nick Prime as some call him, well Nick just had
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  Speaker 1: to run out.
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  Speaker 3: Nick.
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  Speaker 1: Nick just left after doing the intro. He's gonna be
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: back in a little He'll be back, okay, yeah, yeah, okay,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah. He was running late. He wanted to come
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  Speaker 1: in and do the intro, and now he's back to
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: running late. Yeah.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: Do some loops around the block, you need to do.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Im media. We don't broadcast that we have teleportation technology
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: because it is top secret. Our Patreon does very well
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Patreon dot com. There a lot of people don't know
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: about the teleportationschology. The R and D Department of Pod Therapy.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: We invest, Okay, we believe in the future. Okay, we
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: don't say the other bills. We get this one done well. Friends,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to some summer programming of pod Therapy. Nine seasons in,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: we've still never missed a week. We always get a
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: show out, even when we have to do summer schedule,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: which means we've got some travel coming up between the hosts.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: It's hard to get us all in the same place
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: at the same time. We don't want to have to
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: go back to zooming it, so we are doing some
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: pre recorded summer episodes. It's gonna be a little bit abbreviated,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: a little shorter, but we're still gonna have a really
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: good time. Make sure that you're still getting that ear
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: full of pod Therapy to our patrons. You're still getting
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: the episodes the day that you get them on Wednesdays.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: You still have access to all the fun stuff. We
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: might still have some summer content rolling out, but you
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: won't get that pre show. Hang, we do have to
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: cut it short. That's just thanks for loving us into
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: the summer mouth. Oh good, I'm glad we still have drops.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: That's cool. I mean you have to you have to
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  Speaker 1: get out and do your do your work. I have
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: to do my work at my other job. Yeah, Papa
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  Speaker 1: gotta make money. As I tell the children every night
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: as I leave with my mouthful of lipstick, they know
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  Speaker 1: what daddy's doing when it's on this stiletto. That's right,
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  Speaker 1: and he heads out.
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  Speaker 2: To the street.
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  Speaker 1: I don't like to go far though. I like to
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  Speaker 1: go right out to the corner in front of my street.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I want because I'm to stay in front of your house. Yeah,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: it's like a lemonade stand. Yeah, it's just a quickie
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Jimmy's quickies. What do you what do you charge? Not enough?
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you that right now. But I do accept
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: venmo and food stamps. Okay, So whatever you got, I'm
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: not turning it away. Do you remember Jerry Springer, talk
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: show host from the from the eighties and nineties. He's
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: a big, big guy, big big deal. He was average sized,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: but he was. Yeah. He got busted I think in
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: the late eighties or early nineties for hiring a prostitute. Okay,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: as one does. The way he got busted was he
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: paid her with a check. Okay. Yeah, it was a
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: different time though, Yeah, groceries, it wasn't that different of
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: a time. Okay, all right, that was a different time,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: but not the payhooker with a check time. What makes
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  Speaker 1: me sad is that he got in trouble for this
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  Speaker 1: instead of being seen as an honorable man who pays
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: his bills. That's what I believe. He was a politician.
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  Speaker 1: He was a governor of India. Cincinnati was Americ Cincinnati
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  Speaker 1: for a little while. I don't think he was ever
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  Speaker 1: a governor. I don't think he ever got bigger than mayor. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: From there, I was like, I was friends with Jerry
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  Speaker 1: before before he died. Was that your check, Jesus? Okay, No,
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  Speaker 1: I did America's Got Talent with Jerry. He was great.
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  Speaker 1: He was He was the host. He was the host
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  Speaker 1: for Americas Got Talent at the beginning, and he was
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  Speaker 1: he was fantasm I loved Jerry. He and I hung
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: out after the shows, you know, because his wife had
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: a gig. She she was either teaching night school or
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: going tonight school. I don't know which one it was,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: it's been a while, but she would get done, like
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: an hour after after our show was done, and then
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: she would come pick him up. So he and I
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: would go sit at the bar in in the casino.
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  Speaker 1: I would He didn't drink, but he would smoke a cigar.
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  Speaker 1: I would I would have some drinks and smoke a
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: cigar and would chat while we waited on his wife
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  Speaker 1: to come to kick up. There you go. I loved him.
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  Speaker 1: We passed away. I was very sad. Pot therapy. I
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: think strongly pro sex work, strongly pro TV hosts who
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: become politicians all the way around? Is that is that
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: a lotoiticians who became TV hosts. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: yeah for that in moderation you know, actually a lot
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  Speaker 1: of TV hosts that become politicians. We are seeing a
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  Speaker 1: lot of that now. Yeah, then that is not doing well. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: but that's what he was. He was a TV host
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  Speaker 1: who went was was a TV host right when he
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  Speaker 1: a Fox away. Jerry was a politician first. Yes, oh
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  Speaker 1: and that's when he got busted for prostitutions, I believe so, yes,
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  Speaker 1: all right, and he was also like a serious wait,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: get a second, he was a serious TV host for
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  Speaker 1: a while. That's right. He was a news anchor. I
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  Speaker 1: think he was a news acre but he also had
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: a serious talk show. You were the Donahue Show. You
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: remember Phil Donahue's old shown. He was he was modeled
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: after that it was definitely like serious talks and just
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: like yeah, well then and then back when his show
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  Speaker 1: got insane, that's when he started getting rating. Rest there
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  Speaker 1: was a watch. They were ahead of Oprah. Jerry, Rest
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  Speaker 1: in peace, Jerry. We've got some great questions for today's
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  Speaker 1: abbreviated show, and we're kicking off the order with burned
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  Speaker 1: out social worker. I wonder who this is from. Hello there, Jim,
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  Speaker 1: I'm right next to you. It's me when.
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  Speaker 3: Letters.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, that's hello there, pod therapists and doctor Jacob. Good evening.
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  Speaker 1: You guys are awesome. Thank you so much for all
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: you do. Please feel free to edit this letter for content, slash, clarity,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: or whatever you think is necessary. Here's a little behind
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  Speaker 1: the scenes look writer Nick never fucking does that ever ever,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: But I am when everyone volunteers it, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah. We may or may not, but they want.
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  Speaker 2: Us to do.
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  Speaker 3: It's funny what they think is long, Like oh this
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  Speaker 3: is so long?
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  Speaker 1: Is that how all men are to you? It's just like,
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  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I know this is a lot. Oh yeah, no,
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  Speaker 1: I'll be okay, thanks though, is it it's in right? Okay,
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  Speaker 1: I've been a licensed therapist since twenty fifteen, and I've
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  Speaker 1: run my own private practice since twenty nineteen because I'm
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: a bad boy there it is. It's been a successful practice,
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  Speaker 1: both financially and in terms of client outcomes. I specialize
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: in trauma treatment, utilizing various modalities to keep clients or
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: to help clients overcome the impacts of single incident or
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: complex Traumas the work it gets heavy. Over the last
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: two years, I've become increasingly burnt out. This shows up
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  Speaker 1: for me as low energy for the work and feeling
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: increasingly frustrated with slow progress, challenging client personalities, and dealing
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  Speaker 1: with insurance. I find this is leeching into how I
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  Speaker 1: see the world. Five years ago, I would have considered
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: myself an extremely optimistic and compassionate person. Pretty much everyone
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  Speaker 1: I know would say that I'm kind and thoughtful. But
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  Speaker 1: in the last two years, and more so lately, when
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  Speaker 1: I look around, even at strangers walking on the street,
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  Speaker 1: I notice that I feel annoyed, have judgments, and just
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  Speaker 1: wish people would go away. Some of this is probably
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: due to the state of the world and the political
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  Speaker 1: atmosphere that we live in. I'm also parents of two teenagers,
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  Speaker 1: one of whom has a learning disability, and my marriage
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: is stable but not always easy. I feel like I'm
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  Speaker 1: turning into a pessimistic, unhappy lady. I'm still holding it
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  Speaker 1: together on the outside. People still describe me as kind
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  Speaker 1: and thoughtful, but on the inside, my internal dialogue is
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  Speaker 1: becoming more and more negative, upset, pessimistic. I cry a lot,
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  Speaker 1: more more often than ever. I notice what I call
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  Speaker 1: the suicide radio station turn on in my head, where
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  Speaker 1: I notice my voice telling me what's the point? Why
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  Speaker 1: am I still here? Why even do this anymore? I
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  Speaker 1: wish I could fall asleep and never wake up. Just
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: to be clear, I'm not actively suicidal. I don't have
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  Speaker 1: any intention to act on any of these thoughts, but
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  Speaker 1: it's quite stressful to hear this radio station in my
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  Speaker 1: head more and more often. I've been to therapy myself
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  Speaker 1: over the years, and I do have a professional consultation
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  Speaker 1: group where I can bring issues related to clients and burnout.
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  Speaker 1: That at least helps me stay effective with clients. But
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  Speaker 1: to be honest, I've gained little from therapy myself. The
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  Speaker 1: most recent therapist I worked with basically just not at
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  Speaker 1: a lot and validated my feelings, but nothing changed I worked.
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  Speaker 1: Huh have you met this person? Uh huh? Oh okay,
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  Speaker 1: oh right, no good?
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  Speaker 3: Uh huh.
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  Speaker 1: There should be a real of just you're doing that
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: that we just play. Oh yeah, that'd be a great
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: jacob job. I worked with a more skills based therapist
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  Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, But when I imagine reconnecting
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  Speaker 1: with him, I just think I already know what his
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: advice is, and I already use it. Need I'm still struggling.
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  Speaker 1: I have great tools, and I do use them. I
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: exercise every day, I eat healthy, I get enough sleep.
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  Speaker 1: I have no addictions. I meditate, I do yoga. I
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: prioritize time with friends. I go on vacation twice a year.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: I use coping tools from my own therapies when I
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: need to, journaling, breath work, self compassion practices, somatic exercises,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: and I take supplements to support my nervous system. So
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: I just find myself thinking, how is this going to
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: get better for me? What do I need now? Anyway,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know if any of you have experienced this.
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  Speaker 1: I guess my question is what do I do now?
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  Speaker 1: I've considered changing careers, and that feels terrifying. What else
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  Speaker 1: can an LCSB you do after they've burnt out. I
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  Speaker 1: do not want to work at an agency ever. Again.
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  Speaker 1: The only thing that I really want to do is
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  Speaker 1: stop working with people all together and spend time with
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: animals or trees or something totally unrelated to the human condition.
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  Speaker 1: I think I'm just burnt out on humanity. I'm committed
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: to sticking around to see my kids start their adult lives,
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  Speaker 1: but I worry that after that the radio station might win.
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  Speaker 1: Please help, Sincerely, LCSW, which stands for languishing, crying, stuck
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  Speaker 1: and worn out.
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  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, a lot of named it that. Yeah, I
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: feel like it's partially to blame. Yeah yeah, looking at
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  Speaker 1: it with hindsight, I think, probably not the best acronym
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: we could have done for that profession. But social workers
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  Speaker 1: do get to name themselves, So Whitney, I feel like
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  Speaker 1: that's more on you. This is super relatable. I don't know,
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  Speaker 1: you've always you've had a career balance where I feel
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  Speaker 1: like you will do private practice, there spend times in
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  Speaker 1: your life where you're almost entirely clinical, and then there's
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  Speaker 1: times where you get to get work more on the
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: administrative side. And like, I imagine that there's pros and
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  Speaker 1: cons to both, but one of the pros is probably
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: kind of getting out of the direct human contact part
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: and having a little bit more of the behind the
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: scenes role. It's probably like a big relief from the
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  Speaker 1: actual burden of all this.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I hear you writer when you said that
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  Speaker 3: you don't really want to go back to agency work
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: and you almost don't even want to engage anything to
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: do with people. So this may not be the exact
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: bust for you in particular, But I do think that
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: it's important to note that we've talked a lot about
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: how lcsw's social workers can do a wide range a
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: different you.
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  Speaker 1: Have the largest range.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so I know we joke about me working
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  Speaker 3: in insurance, but especially the you know, first go round
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  Speaker 3: back in twenty nineteen, there was kind of a relief
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  Speaker 3: of not feeling like you had to carry so many
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: burdens of all of your clients, all your patients, and
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: so just being able to kind of clock in and
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: you are looking at clinical so you're still getting that
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  Speaker 3: part of your brain scratched.
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  Speaker 1: Till you know you're you're using your skills, but.
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  Speaker 3: Just be able to like show up and end up
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  Speaker 3: five and then you like close your computer and you
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  Speaker 3: go do whatever else. You don't like carry it with
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  Speaker 3: you as much. I think there was a huge value
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  Speaker 3: in that, and so there's a lot of other maybe
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  Speaker 3: not even agencies, but like I know, the VA is
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  Speaker 3: always hiring social workers. There's things like that that can
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  Speaker 3: come with really great benefits. And that feeling of just
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  Speaker 3: being able to turn off when you when you're done
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: right is a good feeling. So others out there that
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: might be dealing with burnout, that could be a route
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: to look at. And you don't have to do it forever.
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  Speaker 3: I think we get stuck in thinking like, oh, if
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: I do this, then I'm just never going to do
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: therapy again, or I'm never going to do whatever else again.
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  Speaker 3: It's like, no, we have so much flexibility nowadays.
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  Speaker 1: With which I think I do uniquely. I think social workers,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: you know, enjoy a lot more flexibility. They are just
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: one of the ogs of the field. Do you relate
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: to the burnout piece? Have you ever gotten to that
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: place clinically where you're like, WHOA, I do not have
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: much to give. I mean the writer talks about trauma work, huh,
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  Speaker 1: And I think when you're trying I'm a specialist. I
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: remember when I first graduated, I was like, I hope
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I never worked with trauma, because I don't think I
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: could do that back to back. I remember hoping I
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: did not have one client, very naively believing that I
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: would just go my entire clinical career.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: And have deal with trauma some few life problems. I'll
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: just scoot them on their way along.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: And I was super naive. I just didn't realize that
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: this is everywhere. But I think if you're just an
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: average off the shelf therapist, you're dealing with trauma fifty
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: percent of the time. This is a trauma specialist. Yes,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: if you're putting yourself out there as that that's all
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: you're seeing. But do you relate to this? Do you
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: relate to like the human burnout angle?
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah? This is something I think you and I might
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: differentiate on, and that is that you claim. I guess
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: I believe you that all ladies and.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Gentlemen, we're not filming today, But there it is. There is,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: in all its glory that there it is relative metric
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: tape measures. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, So the centemme is
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: that what the CM I thought that way, you should
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: probably just can take circumference. I don't know. I really
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: was never good at math. Okay, it's the circumcised side pleasure. Yeah, yeah,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: yeah that's what I thought it was. Yeah, there you go.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: This is for you. You don't have the hood, you know,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: so this is nine cm that's you're welcome.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: Is that how that works?
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: But no, you always claim that you see so many
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: clients a week, and it always shocks me because that
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: is where I start to see burnout when I feel like, really,
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: twenty is like my max, and if I'm hitting twenty
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: clients every week, then it's like I might be pushing.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: It just depends. Then I find myself maybe hoping a
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: client cancels at some point because I'm just tired or
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: I don't feel like I show up as my best self.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: And that's where you see burnout in my opinion for myself.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: And everyone's different. So if you're out there and you're
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: a therapist, you pick, you pick how how many clients?
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: That well a lot of agen and that is the
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: burnout in agencies. I remember at the foster Care agency,
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: twenty five a week, Oh you have to and we
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: had a dry to them.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm like that say five, It is not very
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: much at an agency, but you're driving to we're going to.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: The foster kids homes and stuff, so there's a lot
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: of commute time in there, and a lot of them
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: are in school, so you have to cram it into
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: like after school, after school.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you long for the summer because you
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: can actually like.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Have yes we have started at eight or nine am.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Great, but like an agency outpatient therapist where you're working
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: with adults or people come to you. My new graduates,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: the average ask is like between thirty and thirty five,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: and that's for them to get clinical supervision included in
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: the job.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Thirty to thirty five.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: This is the criminal reality that a lot of mental
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: health lives in because they're getting compensated at fifty to
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: sixty K as their salary and they're doing thirty to
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: thirty five. Those are the sessions. Now you add the notes. Yeah,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: you had hours of clinical suit assessment, right, all the
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: office work, all the case management, all the summaries. They
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: have to make their own calendars, like they're they're taking
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: their own appointment. It is a lot, and like that's
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: on top of the human like effort, right and the
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: emotional labor of the work. It's a tough field. And
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: like this is where I think the writer and I
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: probably relate, is the the aspiration of a lot of therapists,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of my students, like once they get into
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: the agency work and they grind and they get like
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: showed up, the aspiration is I need to get into
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: private practice so I can survive on like fifteen to
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: twenty a week, and in most cash pay private practices,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: that is the national average. Is if you do the polling,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: you'll see that like fifteen to twenty is like a
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: number that a lot of them want to live at.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: And people go, haha, ha, that's like part time work.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: It's like it's absolutely not. That's twenty hours of the
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: hard part, right, and then there's all the rest. Like
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: if you ask some person who has a job in America,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: like forty hours of your week is not the part
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: where you are clicking buttons.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: And like job, you're not sitting there the whole.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Right, there's other parts where you're not staring into the light, right,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: and like that's the part where we are. And then
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: but yeah, and you're right, like I average little higher
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: than that. It depends I.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: Mean a lot of other things going on, so I'm sure.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Well I do. But like what's weird for me is
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: like for me, I've not usually there's there's a different
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: kind of burnout that will come whenever I have a
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: high case load. But for me, that the trauma part,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: I think it's it's manageable almost because one hand washes
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: the other. Like I'll leave my three o'clock session, maybe
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: start furious, wash yeah wash that. But like for me,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I might leave the session where it's like traumatic and
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: like that was really heavy or something's going really difficult
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: about it, and I'll jump into my next session and
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: the next one actually relieves me of the last one,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: right because there's a new problem. And so sometimes it's like, oh, this,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: this whole case is a different case. I just left
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: from this type to this type, Like it's a whole
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: different type of person. We're dealing with a different thing.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: And so like where I would sometimes when I was
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: at my peak and I was doing like almost sixty
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: sessions a week, the one thing I did have to
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: be mindful of, and I usually didn't have full control
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: over my calendar. But where I would try to be
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: mindful is try not to do deep heavy trauma work
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: back to back, yeah, or try not to end the
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: day on it, and like those would be things that
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: would help me. But for me, ironically, having more sessions
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: didn't necessarily it actually in some ways inoculated me against
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: some of it, because there was so much to remember
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: in the day that my brain almost couldn't hold on
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: to whatever was crazy in that day, and I just
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: kind of like walk away. It was a different kind
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: of burnout that would come from that, just like hard
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: work burnout. But what the writer's going through, I think
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: is a really like normal thing in the field. Like
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: we talk about the turnover, we talk about burnout, we
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: talk about vicarious trauma. We've done deep dives on that.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And I also appreciate what the writer says with Look,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: sometimes it's really hard because you do what you're supposed
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: to do, right. You go see another therapist, you do
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: the personal work. I'm eating healthy, I'm sleeping, I'm exercising,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: I go to a professional consultation group, I take vacations.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I know all the skills that the next therapist might
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: tell me. And I've done the emotional yoga of sitting
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: in session and crying and just letting it out. And
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: here I am and I'm still weigh down with it.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: And I think that there's a lot of truth to that,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: because sometimes those other interventions do help. Sometimes you do
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: get to the end of that process and you go,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: I've taken away as much as I can from this,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: and what I'm still experiencing is what's left over. And
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: that is a real place to get to. And there's
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: people that do twenty years of construction and their knees
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: give out right, and there is no amount of physical
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: therapy they can do to prevent the wear and the tear.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: The body gives up, And there is a part where
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: I think like your psychology has a breaking point and
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: you can reach a place where it's like I cannot
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: continue to do this. And when the writer talks about
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: being stuck in private practice, I like the suggestion of
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: there might be other jobs. But sometimes what happens in
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: private practice is you get attached to the golden handcuffs
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: because then you're like, Okay, I worked hard to get
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: to this place. I've done it, I've earned this. This
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: is in this field, this is the preferred job. I
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: got it, but now I'm successful at it and now
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: I can't leave it, because if I leave it, I'll
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: work twice as much, have new burdens, and probably make
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: less it can be. It's complicated. So sometimes the answer
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: isn't just I will leave, oh sure, Sometimes the answer
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: is I have to leave the entire profession.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: I would ask. This is interesting because I kind of
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: hear you saying like this internal pull is happening, and
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: you're because you're doing all these other things right, because you're, yeah,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: doing all the things just stated and reminded us, like
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: you're doing all the things right to relieve that stress,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: but it's not really working. I Mean, the other thing
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: I heard you say was that it scares you to
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: just leave in general, to start over. And I'm kind
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: of curious what a startover mean for you, Like, right,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: what is internally going on there that is like pulling
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: you away from therapy? Because at some point, if I
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: were your therapist, i'd be asking you that, like, well, well,
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: let's listen to our bodies kind of like let's listen
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: to what's going on there and maybe dive into that
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: instead of worrying about what are we scared of or
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: what's I just don't want to do X y or Z,
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: like what are we being pulled to do? Which I
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: guess you kind of said, I want to have nothing
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: to do with people and like run in the grass
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: or something. I'm trying to go back and look like,
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: I don't know, go work as a park ranger. Maybe
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: not that right now, but like find something in that
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: sense that feels maybe a little more fulfilling or or
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I would just stick around and not
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: I'd be very curious.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: That is how I healed. So like for me, even
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: though I don't specialize in trauma, the nature of being
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: a healthcare provider is that you are constantly a witness
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: to human suffering, right, and you're constantly trying to put
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: it back together. Most of our people aren't bleeding when
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: we see them, but this is what we take vicariously,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: even if that session wasn't a trauma session. It's we're
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: staring into the gaping mob of human suffering always and
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: we're trying to put things back together again. So for me,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: whenever I got burned out, the way that I think
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: found my path to healing, or to at least getting
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: into life balance was actually taking more jobs. So like
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: teaching at the university. Whenever you and LV got a
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: hold of me and said, hey, would you like to
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: work part time? I'm helping out at this mental health clinic.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: I was like, okay, but I'm not going to see
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: any patients, right, I get to teach the students. I
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: get to coach them, I get to supervise them. Yes,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: get me out of my practice a little bit. Let
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: me do that. And so in the beginning, I didn't
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: take any fewer patients. I just would go do it
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: after hours. And then they asked me to start teaching
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, great, and like it's a
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: lot more and so like there's more calories being burned
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: in my day, but like I would look forward to.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: Having that reprieve is huge. It really shows you how
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: much it's not really about the workload. It's right what
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: you're doing with it.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Or I'd be in the middle of my cases and
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, oh, this will be a great one
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: for my students today, Like I'm gonna, you know, de
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: identify this case and I'm writing a vignette and like
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: as I'm but everything changed because it wasn't just about
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the client anymore. The case. It was now like Okay,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to talk about this time in my class. Like,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: this is super relevant and it has found these new
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: ways I got involved in so many other projects, like
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: tech companies, this podcast, Like, as I get involved in
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: more things and I find more ways to like just
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: be a human that is not just the face to
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: direct therapy, it kind of took the pressure off of
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: that a little bit and just I don't know, it
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: added more seasoning to the soup so that it actually
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: ultimately helped me. Even though it's like, oh, you're but
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: you're working seventy hours a week or whatever. It's like, yeah,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: but the same, Yeah, but it felt different than just
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: working like thirty or forty in direct client care, even
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: though I'm still doing that. Diversifying actually really helped me.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: But I think that we have to be honest, like,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: and this is something that I think scares a lot
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: of people. If you go to like the Reddit page
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: for therapists, one of the most common things you see
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: is people saying, I'm burned out. I went to school
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: and did life work for ten years to enter this profession.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: The first graduating nurse who's twenty two years old is
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: making as much or more than I ever will. I
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: can't do this, like I need to leave the profession.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: And this is why we talk a lot about macro
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: reform of the profession and why there needs to be investigations,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: like we need to figure out what's broken in our
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: system so that at least the compensation can help. That
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: way people have to work less. We can make this work.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: But I also think we have to sometimes be honest
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: with ourselves and admit openly. And this is always hard
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: for me to admit to my students because I'm like
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: ray of sunshine. I always want to come in and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: be like, oh, we got this, Like you're gonna love
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: this profession. It's awesome. But then I have to be
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: honest when I read letters like this and say, yeah,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: you may you may end it, like you may not
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: end your life. You may get to a stratical where
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: advocating for suicide today, I just you know what, I'm
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: going balls out. I don't care anymore. But no, like
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: you may get to a place where you're like I
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: do need to be done or I need to switch
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: lanes in this profession. I can't do direct client care anymore.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: A lot of veterans in the profession move into administrative roles.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: They become supervisors, they become directors, they sign the notes,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: they reading coats. What about research? It's hard to switch
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: roles into it because in our field, either you graduate
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: from school and go research or you graduate and go clinical.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: But what I don't mean switching fields into just purely research,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: but what about adding some research into part of this.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: It's hard to get paid, so like to get for research,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: you should have to be attached to me a versity
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: and usually get like grants, And that's it's a hard
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: field to get into. Like for me, I'm an adjunct.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: I'm saying research.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: He's saying something like write a book.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking more like a paper. I'm thinking about I'm
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: thinking about writing a like writing a paper and trying
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: to get a published. I mean, that's it's a great book.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I did write a book. It's easy to write. And
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: that shows it is easy to write a book. Anyone
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: can write a book.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: There we go.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: I think the misunderstanding about research is that it is
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: a club. You have to already be in the club. Yeah,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I don't mean make money in research, Okay, yes, do this,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: But I meant yeah, I mean I mean getting getting
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: kind of back into what brought you into this profession
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: in the first place. Well, I think you're adjacent to
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: what a lot of what we see colleagues do, which
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: is maybe not doing research but maybe teaching. A lot
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: of them start doing CEU workshops. Has a fuck load
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: of teachers out there, Well, nobody's figuring out what they
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: need to be teaching. They do research and then they
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: go present it to colleagues. And so that's a way
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: that they will do a CEU workshop where they don't
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: publish the paper, but they put together like a slide deck.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: They do a lot of thinking and then they'll teach
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: the field and they'll start diversifying to it.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: But it's sort of a bigger thing like the n
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: sweah things like that.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: But I'm thinking, like, write some papers on how to
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: avoid burnout in the field, you know, start start getting
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: into this type of you know, explore this niche a
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: little bit maybe, and maybe that'll lead you to something
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: else that you that you that you'll find that you
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: still enjoy about this profession. I think that's a fair
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: pat and you'll kind of get to it. Yeah, it's
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: it's a high burnout field. It really is. And that's
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we need to at least
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: change some of the dials when it comes to the
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: healthcare infrastructure, healthcare finance, infrastructure, the expectations of the job.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: But if the compensation can't get where it needs to get,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: then we can't change the expectations of the job because
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: we have to make everybody work whatever the requirement is
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: to pay a bill, right, and so like that becomes
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: this burnout rate. And I don't know, maybe this this
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: patient wouldn't be any better off if like, oh, I'm sorry,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: this writer wouldn't be any better off if they just
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: had a lower case load. Maybe that wouldn't even be
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: their solution. Maybe seeing five a week would just be
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: too much. And they're just at a place where they
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: are on empty with human empathy, right, that might be
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: what's going on with you. And it's tough because you
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I would worry, like you know, I think a natural
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: question from colleague to colleague is like, hey, are you
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: safe to treat right now? Can you still do the job?
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: And writer says yes, And like I have a professional
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: consultation group. I go to the things I need to
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: put gas in my tank, so I can still be
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: there for my patients, but on a human level, on
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: a personal level, I'm unempty afterward, and I don't have
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: anything left. And like writer, I think the most serious
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: thing I heard in that is the suicidality part and
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: when your kids leave and you're kind of done with
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: some of those family obligations. Obviously, if you're ever at
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: a place in your life where you're considering death because
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: of your profession, it's time to switch your fucking perfecsion.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: It's time to sell feet picks, you know, Like I mean,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: you can do that for a while. You can float
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: on feet picks all the no on Whitney, no, no, no,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: whatever you're about to say, I'm here for it. All
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I know is I was just having a feet pit
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: conversation last night with friends, and we were discussing how
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: many of our friends have done like feet picks and
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: things like that, and it's not as small it's it's
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: a small number, but it's not as small a number
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: as one might expect.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah. No, someone just sent me a little TikTok on
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: how to this is how you make money with feet picks.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: I was like, okay, yeah.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Anna in the airport yesterday. I had
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: a random stranger sitting across from me say, I love
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: your toenails. She's like, your feet could be like model feet,
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: which they cannot. Let me just preface, we can see.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Them right now. Yeah, it's hard agree the vomit.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, a lot of people don't know.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: If you're a patron. You usually see the video show.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: We don't have them because of the summer schedule. But
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: you can't see Whitney's feet, and we did that on purpose.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: The original camera we had the whole bit bad. She
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: has those like long curly nails that usually.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: Only see on hands and the ground when I walk.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, claw, I think eagle claw might might be worth it.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: So comparison, writer, I'm just glad you're talking about it.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: You're normalizing this conversation for the field. Obviously, you're a
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: seasoned veteran of this profession. You've seen people burn out,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: and if you're at a place where you're at the
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: end of this, you know it sucks because it's hard
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: to tell somebody who's worked in a specialty their whole
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: lives have done all this work. Hey, maybe just change careers,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: like you tell a surgeon Hey, maybe just go deliver
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: pizzas now.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Nah.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Fuck that. We advocate against that all the time. We
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: advocate against not being like your job isn't you all
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: the time? Just because you happen to have the same
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: job as the fucking host doesn't mean that it's different.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: I agree, Like, if you need to get a different
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: job to be happy in life, get another job to
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: be happy.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: And live well.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: If it comes into survival or your job, there is
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: no question. Yeah, honestly, I'm thinking about like the research
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: stuff and the papers and everything really as an avenue
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: to see if you can find other aspects of this
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: job that you still like, right, And if the answer
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: is yes, then cool. And if the answer is no,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: cool It is a fucking job. It's just a job.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: It's remarkable how many professionals in therapy ultimately spin off
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: into adjacent things like teaching CEUs yoga workshops, teaching at college,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: working for the insurance companies, Like, it's remarkable. Next job,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: he loves clinical work? And is it administrat who was
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: going to jog around the house for like three more
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: or three more minutes? Let's really passionate about fitting fitting
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: this podcast up as But anyway, writer, good luck, Thank
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: you for this letter, and please stay in touch, let
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: us know what's going on. And if you're not part
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: of our discord, please make sure that you are, because
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: there's a really good supportive community there. It sounds like
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: you could just use one more. Oh and of course,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: since we know that you have a job even though
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: you don't necessarily love it Patreon dot com slash there
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: it is, give us that sweet sweet money. We're in
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: to a quick break in. When we come back, we're
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: talking about is my therapist crazy? Or am I you're
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: listening to pod therapy. Today's episode is brought to you. Bye,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Robert bj M. I feel right, Kayla Ensbury, Kevin Chamberlain,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Ben Stanley, Adam Hathaway, Dan Martin lib Hey, Andrew Lingley,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Chad mag Nkle of Prince and Dale the King. You
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: want to sponsor our show? Become a therap producer at
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Patreon dot com slash. All right, Whitney, what is the
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: only mammal that can truly fly? Oh? I'm saying truly
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: because I'm gonna tell you right now it's not the
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: flying squirrel. Oh okay, so no gliding, no light, no bullshit, now,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: no up, fly, you can go up. Yeah, and you're
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: not jumping like a bitch squirrel. That's right, okay, you
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: fucking squirrel out of your mouth. Oh shit's good, jump
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: all right, all right? I always forget their mammals. Yeah,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know furry furry birds. Yeah, that makes it
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: as soon as if it's furry, it's usually a mammal.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Jim which came first? Which was which was invented first?
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: The zipper, the airplane or sliced bread? Oh my god,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: she got the bad question. I get this ship. This
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: is fucking hard. Whitney had all the mammals to choose bread.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: You have three, all right, that's fair, and none of
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: them are mammals. Wow, okay, I remember seeing that slice
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: bread was like kind of more recent than I was
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: comfortable with, okay, being like, wow, okay, so that's the thing. Uh.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: The zipper feels older than airplanes. Okay, I feel like
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: we needed zippers pretty early.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Zippers airplanes.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Now, I'm doubting myself, a bitch, if you asked toenails,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: tell me this, when was the airplane in? Yeah? You know,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I don't expect you to know it. Okay, good, yeah, no, yeah, yeah, like,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: what do you think they like? There's pictures of it.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: I've never seen pictures of zippers. So got old timey zippers? Okay,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: they came first, give me zippers. Baby zippers came around
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: in nineteen thirteen. Oh, sliced bread came around in nineteen
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: twenty eight. Yet airplanes came around in nineteen ought three.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: I don't want to airplanes or ten years before the zipper,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: which was admitted another fifteenish years before sliced bread time period, Yeah,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: like Civil War. I mean that's eighteen hundred, so it's
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: a little earlier. But yeah, they definitely didn't have zippers.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Oh man, all right, fuck this game World War One.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: I guess they had some zippers. Yeah. By then, I'm
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: just unhappy with you common you know, the zippers are
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: really important. Let's see. My question is how many hearts
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: does an octopus have? The answer, no, I can't see
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: the answers have a lot of stomachs. I think octopus
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: have a lot of hearts. Yeah, at least hearts. That's
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: the question. Brains, we have mobile brains. I think each
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: arm n No, No, I don't think more than that.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: It would be silly. Yeah, per arm plus the head.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: I think that's it's kind of the man. I don't
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: think hard. You don't need more. You don't need that
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: many hearts to pump blood around. But if you have
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: more than one, where are you putting those bad bo
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go I'm gonna go out on a limb here, okay,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say one. It's a trick question. As
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: a trick question, all right, and the answer is three. Okay,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: blood to the gills and one pumps blood to the
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: rest of the body. Huh, Well, there you go. So
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: you got two hearts for the gills and then one
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: for the for the rest of everything. I uh, I
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: did not see that ship coming out. I don't have
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: any hearts for my gills. I thought it was one
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: or eight. I thought it was I thought you were
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: gonna be there was. Yeah, there was just no great area.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: I would have gotten to three. Yeah. I was not
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: gonna like figure out that felt It feels weird. It's
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: like why that? Why? Why three? Why? Why are there
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: two just for the guilds? Yeah, this seems like overkilled.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know about this. We might need to do
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: some research. I don't you under protest next question in
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: this abbreviated summer show. Is my therapist crazy or am
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: I dear pod therapy? A couple of months ago, I
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: finally did it. I started therapy. Wooooooo. Things seem to
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: be going well with a therapist until yesterday. For contacts.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: I'm happily married, we have a baby, and my husband
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: has children from a previous marriage a right. Co parenting
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: with the ex is amicable as possible to be blunt.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: She was abusive during their entire time together. Okay, but
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: domestic abuse against men is not really taken seriously, so
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: even he didn't realize that until after the divorce. He
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't like to talk about it, but most of his
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: family agrees that she's not a good person the X
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: at least they know he wants nothing to do with
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: her anymore, not even hear her name and conversation. My
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: in laws complained to us about the state of her
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: house and the way she treats the children all the time.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: She's always too busy and too tired. She blames all
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: her mistakes on her ADHD, including how she treated my
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: husband in the past. Bottom Line, he has made it
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: crystal clear to his family that he does not like
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: his ex doesn't want to be around his ex at
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: all and just keep civil contact with her for the
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: sake of the children. The issue is that his family
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: still has a relationship with the ex even after we
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: got married. They invited her for Christmas at the grandparents' house.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: Oh that's a lot. My mother in law keeps family
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: pictures with her in the living room, which my husband
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: already explained how much it makes him uncomfortable and how
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: disrespectful it is to me his new wife. Yea, recently
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: we were invited to a family vacation. We said yes
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: at first, but there are many issues that will possibly prevent.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: Us from going.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: We're trying, but there's only so much we can control. Ah.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: When my husband absent mindedly mentioned to his ex that
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: we might not be able to make it to the
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: family vacation, she called himself fish for not sending the
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: kids with his parents anyway, God forbid a father take
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: time off work to be with his own children, and
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: then suggested that she should go with them instead on
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: the family vacation. He left that conversation pretty upset and
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: concerned about what she might do, so he called his
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: mom to tell the absurd thing that the exit just said.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: What he got in return was a whole lot of
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: silence and a I wouldn't mind it if she went
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: with us. And somehow my mother in law doesn't understand
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: why we are so upset with her. That's better than
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: what I thought that was about. I thought mother in
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: law had already that. I thought for sure X was
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: already coming.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: Yes, well we did.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: This is already better than I expected. See writer, it's already,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: it's already looking up, looking up. It's better than I
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: guess it could have possibly been. Now. When I told
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: this to my therapist, we had an argument. The same
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: conversation about respect and boundaries that I keep having with
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: my mother in law I also have with my therapist,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: and she doesn't seem to understand the problem. I don't
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: know why and if it should be this frustrating to
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: get my therapist to be on my side if something
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: that seems so basic. I don't mind that my in
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: laws have a relationship with my ex, but I do
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: feel disrespected when they go above and beyond not to
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: hurt her feelings and to make her feel involved in
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: the family, even when it means hurting my husband and me. Meanwhile,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: my therapist is treating me like I'm completely inflexible, and
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: I'm tired of rehashing the same issue almost every session
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: instead of focusing on my actual goals. Yesterday, I felt
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: worse after our session. The rest of the day, I
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: was spiraling, questioning my own worth and values. I'm still spiraling,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: so much so that I decided to get a sanity
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: check from my favorite therapists and most importantly, my favorite
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: life coach. Yeah. Many years ago, another person wrote in
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: about their partner's family and fighting his ex to family
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: events and how to stop that. Jacob wisely told her
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: to have a baby. The advice wasn't for me. I
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: take it to them. A baby good good. I like it.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: I like it that advice. I always like weaponizing baby,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: which very un brand, very brand for Jacob. Let me
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: tell you it works. I do not need to verify that. Yeah,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: I definitely I stand by it. Jacob wisely told her
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: to have a baby. The advice wasn't for me, but
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: I took it only to have it not work either.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: So guys, what am I doing wrong? How do I
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: convince my therapist, then my mother in law that we
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: deserve some respect from this family. Is this a cultural
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: barrier because in my culture this would never be tolerated.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't even have to explain it. And should I
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: even have to do the work of convincing her to
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: be on my side on this? Or do I need
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: to just calmly terminate my work with my therapist and
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: find some somebody else. Thank you anonymous.
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: Oh there's a lot of questions in there. There's a
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: lot of things to come.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: I want to know if your therapist is genuinely pushing
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: back against what you're saying, or if your therapist is
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: pushing back to push back and make you have a
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: conversation about it.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: I was kind of wondering they're.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Misreading the room, whatever they are doing. That's the thing
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I do agree with that. No, the therapist is fucking
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: up when you hear the snapping sounds, stop bending, the
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: stress stop right, Like, yeah, that's enough. They can only
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: stretch so far.
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: But we've been there. We've all been there, Like I
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: don't want to talk about that, all right, yep, back
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: and we talk about it next time, Like, hey, yeah,
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: I pushed too hard, Like let's back up a little bit.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Can we just take a second. What the fuck what
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: the fuck I mean, set the therapist decide what the fuck? Family? Okay, Like,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you when when my parents got divorced, my grandparents,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: my dad's parents. Uh I loved my mom okay ay,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: and had two had two kids, you know, me and
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: my brother and everything, and my grandparents, my paternal grandparents
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: stayed friendly with my mom mine. Sure, yes, okay, okay.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: They didn't invite her to like family functions that my
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: dad was also gonna be at. They didn't like they
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: were like, yes, we're gonna support you. You were married
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: to our son, you have you had our grandchildren, like
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: you're still part of our lives, like we were we
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: love you and you are still part of our lives.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: But there was there wasn't like rub your nose in it. Yeah,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: this is well, especially, this is a lot in this case.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Writers like this person abused.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: The biggest point.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a victim of domestic violence. Yes, and this
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: is not dismissing that. But you do say in your
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: letter that people dismiss that, and so expecting them to
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: not dismiss that is probably unfair. It's pretty on brand already. Yeah,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: they're pretty Yeah, and like they're going they're going to
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: dismiss the thing that society also dismisses. And I appreciate
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: that we're shining a light this because you know, we
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: don't get to talk about this enough. But like, I
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: don't know if if Whitney you've ever seen this, but
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: I've had male patients that are victims of domestic violence.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: They have a hard time taking it seriously with me,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: even as they are weeping and being so ashamed and frightened,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: but they are afraid to get medical care. They're afraid
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: to call the police. They're afraid because oftentimes they're afraid
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: they will be the one who's arrested, even though the
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: other person doesn't have any wounds, Like, who's going to
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: believe me? Kind of thing. They're ashamed, they don't want
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: to tell their friends about it, and a lot of
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: times they don't want to tell me about it. And
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I noticed, I remember the very first time that a
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: male patient told me this, I remember, you're not far off,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: You're not far off. To my great shame, I was
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: a new therapist. I didn't laugh, but I didn't I
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: was a baby therapist. And I noticed I noticed how
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: calm I was. I noticed how I was like, Oh,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: that sucks, and it was like, yeah, you know, telling
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: me about their wounds, telling me about what happened physically,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: and how it had been this whole nightmare and almost
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: got in a car accident because of the abuse and
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: what was happening. And I remember just being like, oh, jeez,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: that really sucks. And I remember how quickly I was
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: prepared to talk about something else, to ask a follow
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: up in an out direction, And afterward I was chit
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: chatting with another therapist in the building, a veteran female therapist,
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: and it was like, how's your day, Jim, And I
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I had an unusual one today, first
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: time I've had a male with domestic violence. And she
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: had enough foresight to say, Hey, can I ask you
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: some questions about what that was like for you? And
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I was like yeah, yeah, and she like asked some
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: good probing questions and she was like, this woman immediately
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: went you fucked that up. I'll bet you fucked it up.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: I'll bet you fucked it up. And she was like,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: can I ask you just I want you to just
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: do a thought exercise for me for a second. Just
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: I want you to just for a minute imagine that
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: that was a female and she told you about how
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: her husband was punching her repeatedly in the face while
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: she was driving in the car with the children and
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: almost got in a car accident. How do you emotionally
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: feel right now? And I was like, I want to
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: kill that man, and I'm ter and I'm thinking about
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: her safety, I'm thinking of our children, and I'm thinking
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: about all this stuff and this cannot stand. We have to.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: It's just like, did you bring any of that energy
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: to this guy's Like no, I was like almost about
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: to ask him, so, who do you got in tonight's game?
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: You know, like I mean, ready to pivot, right, But
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: it's like, so to my shame at that stage of
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: my career. That is how easy it is to dismiss
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: this and to validate Jacob's point, even though the grandparents
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: are on the wrong side on this. This is a
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: cultural problem. It is a societal problem in a way
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: the writer wasn't even asking about the writers thinking like
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: boundaries culture, but no, the way we normalize boundaries culture
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: by the way as well, probably too, yes, but also
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: there is there is this as well, and it is ignored.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Violence against men is ignored and I assume. I assume
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: it's because you don't have as many men die from
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: domestic violence as you have women die from domestic violence.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: But it's also I bet, yeah, I bet it is.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: There's some I mean some progress. I have like a
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: mutual friend's close friends who got arrested for throwing a
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: vappin at the direction of her her partner at the time,
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: and she admitted it. She was like, well, yeah, this
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: is what happened. The police arrest her, took her to jail.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: I was like, all right, they aren't playing yeah, like
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: all right, So yeah, I mean there's some And I.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Don't like those arrests either, because I'm like, now, you're
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: just arresting someone to make a statement, and I know there.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Was some nuance to it, but I was like, damn
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: all right, they just took her ass away.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: Gosh. So my initial, my initial surface level thought is
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: definitely a little more on part with Jacob, where yeah,
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: my mom and my paternal grandma like went on ski trips,
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: not with my dad or any other family, but you know,
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: they did their own things yea. And my grandma definitely
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: invited because my dad was one of like many boys
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: invited x's of like my cousin's moms you know, would
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: invite them to like Christmas because they were big, big
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: celebrations and typically that may be their only child or
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: things like that. So I do see that there can
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: be some nuance. This is a wild the whole story,
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, adding in the abuse, adding in like oh,
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: we would like to in buy her on fucking vacation. No,
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: you just get to take the grandkids. Then she doesn't
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: need to go. It doesn't need to go.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Well, and also over the protest of their son. Yes,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: if your son asked you not to with your mom,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: fast people, that's the end of the conversation. That's the
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: part that bothers me is like, I don't have any
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: problem with either of your family structures. That the grandparents
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: hung out with the act, that's cool, But not if
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: your other parent was like mom, dad, this is terrible. Stop. Yeah,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: and we all agree that we don't think this person's
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: like a great parent either, And like all this other stuff,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I don't want them around. You're putting
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: their photo in our house, like in our family? What
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: are you doing? Yeah, that's a lot.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, how to approach that with your mother in law.
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: And again you said you've asked her or tried to
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: set these boundaries. I know you didn't. You can only
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: have so much time in a letter to write out things,
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: so if you've already done this, then sorry. But I
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: think finding a way to really sit down and share
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: with them like this is really upsetting to us. I
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: always try and and you can write this out, because
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: it can be hard to talk to somebody about these
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: things without having it literally written out in front of you,
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: making sure you hit the points you want to hit,
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: but basically describing to them how you feel in these
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: situations and how disruptive it is, and even acknowledging you
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: may not understand fully what I went through. That's okay,
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: you don't have to, but this was very hurtful for us,
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: and it continues to hurt us every time that you
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: do this. I wonder how much maybe they dismissed, like, oh,
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: you shouldn't be hurt by that. That's not your place
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: to say that this is what it is. And if
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: you continue to do that and you continue to hurt us,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: this is going to disrupt our relationship. I think laying
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: out some potential consequences because and I don't know what
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: that is. We aren't making threats, we aren't setting ultimatums.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: That's the word ultimatums. Here, you decide with you and
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: your partner, like what you want that result to look like.
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: If that's okay, well she goes to Christmas this year?
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: We won't, Yeah, exactly.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: Because I don't have to, Like maybe that's what we
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: said last night. I thought about this too, Okay, So
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: part of me jokingly was like, use the kids as weapons.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Have more children, it's always the move.
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: They're great for that, weapons for them. But kind of
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: it's like, well, I don't want my children to be
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: in that environment. Or you know, hey, we want our
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: children to be with us for vacation. We aren't going
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: to go with you on that vacation. And I feel
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: like grandparents tend to adjust very quickly when it comes
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: to time with their grandkids. And that is really lucky
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: to say it sounds like I'm.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Saying, well, but also to just to kind of like
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: temper that and that is a legitimate, I think offering
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: that you just gave. But I also want to note
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: writer didn't ask us how do I deal with my
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: in lass?
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: She did well, oh did she fuck you, Whitney, just
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: because you can read because better than me. Guys, what
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: am I doing wrong? How do I convince my therapist
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: and my mother? And yeah, shit, all right, fine fine.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: I was also getting ready to pivot back to the therapist.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: I'm pivoting back to therapist. I'm pivot into the because
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: I do think that, like I want the therapist who's
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: the ground level expert and he knows all the nuances,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: knows how the husband feels, right, because like what if
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: husband's kind of caught in the middle of this, and
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: husband's like, I don't want to make my new wife upset,
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: but I'm also like not a person who rocks the boat.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: But then like I'm also the victim of abuse. But
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: then like I don't know, so like I could appreciate
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: there could be like a lot of layers to it,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: which is usually why I want the professional on the
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: ground to be the one to like guide you through
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: the process. But in this case, the professional on the
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: ground is just not invested right, And like the writers saying, look,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: I don't feel heard by them, I don't feel understood
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: by them. I am a big believer. Before you quit
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: that therapist, I would want a session to happen where
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: you are very direct.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: Yes, I thought that same thing, and you don't.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't be honest, I wouldn't be mean about it,
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: but I would say, Like if Whitney were my therapist,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: I'd say, Whitney, I need to be honest with you
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: about something. I really don't feel like you understand my
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: position right, and I really feel like you're feeling the
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: need to challenge me and debate me on these issues
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: when I kind of need to start by feeling heard
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: and seen and agreed with, at least in concept, even
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: if not in execution. If you think, hey, I'm not
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: being very skillful about how to manage this, that's fine,
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: But like, if we do not categorically agree on this,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: then I wonder if we are you know, humans who
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: are in enough alignment that we should work together, right,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Like if I want to get a divorce and you're like, no,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: I'm Catholic and I don't think you should be getting divorced,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know that you should be my therapist.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Like you're starting to impose values on me that I
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: don't have. We need to think about that.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: I did wonder if if there's possibly a chance that
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: therapists is getting triggered in some way by some of this,
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: because normally we don't know what our clinician their personal
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: life is like. So if they're coming off as like they're.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Probably friends with the ex wife too. It seems like
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: every person is writer.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: Maybe you are the product reached out.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: The therapist is like, honestly, she's my next session, and you're.
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: Kind of a bet.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: She's kind of great. The therapist is also going on
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: the family vaka. The mom also invited the therapist. This
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: is the smallest town ever. The therapist is the other
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: brothers X. Yeah, you know what, we approach this question wrong? Guys,
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: can we switch sides on this? I think we're all
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: on TMX wife and we're against the writer. Now, I
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: think that's you know what, you're the problem writer. Everybody
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: thinks it's you. No, but I think having a really stern,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: straightforward conversation that says, look, I don't hate you as
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: a person. I'm not looking for a yes man, but
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: there is a part where we need to know that
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: we're in values alignment. Yeah, and if we're not okay,
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: then I think that this is more of a values
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: conversation than a wisdom or psychology or anxiety conversation. Like
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: you may be the one who's telling me divorce is bad,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: and I'm telling you I have the right to choose
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: that if I need to. I'm like, this is where
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: we're at.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: And I've always appreciated when maybe we I'm with a
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: client and we start getting stuck in the weeds a
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: teeny bit on what's going on in their present life
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: for them to just say, well, I really want to
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: focus on my goals, Like can we switch to that?
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: And I've had clients do that and it does feel
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: a little awkward to me as a clinician at first,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: but I'm like, oh, they're just they're comfortable enough to
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: tell me, Hey, I don't want to talk about this
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: weird stressor in my life right now, Like, let's shift
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: back over to my goals. So either directly talking to
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: them about it. I love that before just quietly quitting. Yeah,
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: I think at least try that. See the vibe you get. Yeah,
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: Because if they are a good therapist, and maybe they're
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: just fucking this up right now for a second, we
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: are all human. They will pivot and they will they
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: will adjust with you and meet you where you're at. Like,
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: that's what a good therapist will do. I think.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: I think that's the best advice. I really do. And
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: you know this is awkward. At least we can validate
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: you writer, you're not crazy. No, but I'm sure there's
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of nuances and maybe your therapist than mother
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: in law, and all these people are trying to keep
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: the peace. I'm a big fan of keeping the peace.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: I get that. I think, you know, family cohesions still
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: makes sense, but there are lines that are being crossed here,
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: especially whenever their son is saying, no, I do not
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: want this human around. They abused me, Please make them stop,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: And like everybody's just like open door policy about that.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's I don't like the word disrespect here,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: but it's gross negligence at a minimum. It's it's choosing
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: to be friendly. If I told my family to not
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: invite someone around who I was in a relationship with
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: and they did it anyway, yeah, I would be furious.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And it wouldn't be respect, would be and
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: that other shit. It would just be like I said
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: no to this, Yeah, what the fuck are you doing? Right? Yeah,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: now at a minimum. So yeah, also the kids thing, like,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: the kids think you're not holding the kids hostage. Ye,
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: you're just saying like, look, if my ex is going
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: to be at this family reunion, I'm not going to
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: be at this family reunion, and my kids will probably
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: be with me.
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's the version I think of it. It's
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: not like using them as a weapon. But you're just like, hey,
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: I don't want to be there, and I don't I.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Want to go there, and my kids are going to
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: be with me. Yeah, I can't make this vacation, but
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: I might allow my kids to go with their grandparents
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: that would be nice. And they're like, great, we'll bring
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: your ex. No, no, no, that changes the whole vibe
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: of what I was giving my children to right. I
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: was giving them sentimental time with my parents, not extra
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: time with my ex, who I don't think is good
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: at this anyway. Like anyway, So writer, we're on your
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: side on that. Yeah I was.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: I'm not.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: Oh good, Oh yeah, are.
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: You out of breath from running running around? You're out
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: running around.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: I don't think this should be the case. You've been
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: here the whole time. I don't know if you knew that,
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: but yeah, they've been horrific good they've all been and
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: I meant all of it.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: Well, am, I to understand that we're not on video.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: And this is the nicest I've dressed.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Yah. Yeah, you look gorgeous, thank you. But the gown
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: is striking. Yeah. Yeah, you said yes to the dress
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: and I love it. We're gonna take a quick break
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: and when we come back, we're wrapping up this abbreviated
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: episode of the show. You are listening to pod Therapy.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by Robert Brownie Junior Mint,
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: Kayla Lansberg. Sorry, I haven't done my vocal. I guess,
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: Kevin Chamberlain, Ben Stanley, Adam Hathaway, Dan Martin Live, Hey Yo,
• 55:20
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• 55:23
  Speaker 3: King.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: Would you like sponsor the show? Become a therap producer
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: patriot dot com slash therapy.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Nick. What is the only letter that does not appear
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: on the periodic table? Would you like multiple choice? A nice,
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: CE or cute or E? What is the only letter
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: in the alphabet that does not appear on the periodic table?
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: This is the English alphabet for all of our international
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: listeners to show with subtimes.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Got start all over.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: This is a good boy, This is tough. I like
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: this a lot. That's a really good one.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Uh, I'm gonna say.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: W incorrect. That was my guest too, buy Jim, do
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: you have a guess that past year? Okay, give me
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: get Nope, that's in there. Uh yeah, that's in there too,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: book me give me Nope, that's a you know, give
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: me not at all. Fuck.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: I know it's like, what do you think of when
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: you're like goods? Because it's in there? Because I'm looking at.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: I guess D H D is in there, Whitney, The
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: D is in there and the D is an element.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Jesus dude, this is hard. Thank you, This is I
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: don't know. Uh, the answer is j Every other letter
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: appears at least once in them. Its five points for Jacob, Jim.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: What is the what is the planet in our solar
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: system that has the shortest day?
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: What planet in our solar system has the shortest day? Oh? Goodness?
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: So that means it spins the fastest? Okay, and I
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: think it's Earth. Earth has the shortest day of the
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: eight planets in our solar system. Is your guests twenty
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: four hours. I think it's twenty four incorrect. Shit Whitney,
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: fuck you worth?
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure this is wrong, but Mercury incorrect.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: That is the most common guess though, according to this
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: thing that they knew it was Nick Venus incorrect. Venus
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: is almost their day is longer than their year. Saturn
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: it is Jupiter, the largest planet, has the shortest day.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: It completes one rotation in just under ten hours. Wow,
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: let's see, did I did? I ask everybody? What one more? Whitney? Whitney? Uh?
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: True or false? Goldfish have only a three second memory.
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: Oh no, it's false. I feel like that's a miss Hives.
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: That's the thing.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: It is false. Goldfish can remember things for months and
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: can even be trained to perform simple tasks.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: I have two points. Okay, I am winning.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: As we wrap up the show, we want to remind
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: you can sign up at patreon dot com many Slish Therapy.
• 58:31
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• 58:37
  Speaker 1: community and our nine year library of deep dives interviews,
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: skill Shares research roundups and rants. And in this episode,
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: I think we can thank some new people to the
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: therap party.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: We can, We're able to let's take let's do it.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: We got a new therapod biathlon Anna, our biathlete that.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: I know, an Olympian all mm hmm ra a person.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: One by person.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: I know one person named Anna. So there we go,
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: we go. Uh and we have a new therapy producer.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the boardroom, Dale the king.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: King Now speaking of the boardroom really quick. Our lawyer Leon,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: also a therap producer, has put in an official request
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: for there to be a pod therapy h o A
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: and he would like to be the president of the
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: pod therapy h away.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: What committees are we going to have?
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: So Leon's asking and I think I don't know if
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: he has a quorum, but apparently he wants to start therapy.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: I think we're going to start a pod there. Yeah,
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: you're right, let's create in the discord.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: I already have a list of citations in my head.
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we need to create the r right.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think I think it's a vote for
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: yes for me as and I think the responsibility of
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: h WAY is to issue citations to the hosts after episodes.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: Ye h A citation with mine in July. So this
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: work tell you.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: I will take that as seriously as I take my.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: Current well on your house.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: He's a lawyer, he will.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: I assumed our therapy listeners could take out a lean
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: on our house. Yeah, yeah, we should give him the power.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: If we're going to do this.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: That's the Patriots. We have a financial relationship with them.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they could say I did not get
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: what I paid for. I'm running a lien on your house.
• 1:00:24
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• 1:00:38
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• 1:00:42
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• 1:00:47
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• 1:01:21
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• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: That's all the time we got for this week session.
• 1:01:34
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  Speaker 1: I'm Nick, I'm Jim.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks, so we'll see if you're appointment next week.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you were able to join us.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: I'm tired. That was a long episode.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: That was Sarah