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13th Stepping: The Predatory Behaviour Recovery Won't Talk About · Recovering Out Loud

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So today I want to talk about something that doesn't really
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get a lot of attention in the recovery community, and that is
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this sort of predatorial behavior for men and women.
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Let's be honest, maybe some women somewhere, mostly men
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though. And I'm going to talk from a
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male perspective here, obviously.
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So I'm going to give some information, but also a little
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bit of by my thoughts on it and and my experience with seeing
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13th stepping in the rooms of recovery in rehab.
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And I'm going to explain what 13 stepping is.
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I'm going to explain what it's about, how you should look for
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it, why you shouldn't fucking do it for sure, because I'm going
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to get into it. For some people, recovery
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spaces, meetings, rehabs are the most vulnerable places.
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They're they're dangerous environments and they've ever
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been in. And so they come from a
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dangerous environment where they're experiencing predatorial
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behavior and harassment beforehand in addiction in crack
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dens and in trap houses. And then they go to rehab or
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recovery spaces and it, it feels worse sometimes or it feels just
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as predatorial and all these past traumas and shames shame
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can can get sparked up. And it's a tough place to be.
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I want to feel safe in my recovery community.
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I want to feel safe in my environment.
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I want to feel safe in rehab because I'm here to heal and
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we're all here to heal. We all have one primary purpose
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and that is to stay sober and help the next addict alcoholic
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who's still suffering. So I'm going to talk about
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manipulation, power dynamics, and what's known as 13 stepping
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in recovery. Recovery isn't just about
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staying sober, it's about staying safe.
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So first, what is 13 stepping? In recovery culture, 13 stepping
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refers to people with more time usually or experience pursuing
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romantic or sexual relationships with newcomers, with new people.
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It often involves a power imbalance, not just attraction.
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So there's manipulation tactics involved.
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And it can be a very dangerous place for a lot of women, men
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too, but mostly women who are, who are new and coming in and
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scared. And they see somebody that has
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what they want in terms of sobriety and they might be a
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good looking put together guy and, and now they're pursuing
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them with manipulation tactics. The guy is and and it's it's it
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bothers me and that's why I wanted to do this episode
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because I've seen it, the groups I've been involved in over the
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years. I don't see it a lot, but if I
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do see it, I stop that shit right away.
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I always steer very clear of new women in recovery.
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I steer clear of women in recovery in general, but I
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definitely stay clear from newcomers who are women.
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I stick around the guys. I try to help out the new guys
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that are coming in and that's how I can be of service.
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This is how I watch for 13th stepping in recovery.
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Why is it a problem? Well, I mean, it's pretty
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obvious, but newcomers are emotionally raw, vulnerable, and
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seeking stability. We're looking for help, we're
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looking for stability, we're looking for calm and peace.
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And they may confuse attention with care, intensity with
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connection, guidance with trustworthiness.
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So a lot of people look trustworthy in recovery.
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I'm going to trust this guy because he is reaching out his
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hand to help me. Meanwhile, the motive is very
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much in the opposite direction, in a sexual or predatorial way.
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And it's not always obvious too. It doesn't look predatory at
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first. It looks like, hey, let me help
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you, I'm going to help you get through this.
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And we're taught in recovery to look for people that have what
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we want. I always say to people, if
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you're new, stick with the same sex.
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Whatever you identify with, stick with that sex.
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And I was always taught, now this might be controversial, but
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I was taught if you are gay or homosexual, you stick with the
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women. That might get confusing, that
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might get blurred lines. So all I'm going to say is stick
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with the sex that you are identify with.
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So I want you to think about this.
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Was there ever a time in early recovery where you trusted
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someone because they had more time sober?
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I know that I did. It happened to me.
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There was one time I was at a recovery meeting and a woman
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came up to me. She was obviously under the
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influence and she asked me to sponsor her.
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It was very uncomfortable, it was very awkward, but I just
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calmly said, Oh no, let me introduce you to some of the
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women I know, some of the young women that I know that can help
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you. This is something that I try to
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do today, direct them in the way of other women.
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So when it comes to rehab, it creates a unique environment
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where we have, we're isolated from the outside world.
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We get very strong trauma bonds in connection with the people
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that were around that we're spending every day and every
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minute of every second eating meals with recovery groups.
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We're spending a lot of time with these people.
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You get some really strong relationships in rehab.
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So people in recovery are not automatically healthy.
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There's a lot of old behaviors and old ideas that get cropped
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up when we come into rehab, and we tend to act on them because
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there's nothing else to do in rehab.
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Being sober doesn't automatically equal being
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emotionally regulated. We know that, you know that.
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I know that some people carry manipulation patterns, control
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dynamics, unresolved trauma. They bring that with them into
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rehab, into recovery spaces, and they project it onto the world,
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onto you. And that can be dangerous, It
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can be unhealthy. It can be scary really.
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Another thing that happens is you'll see people that are maybe
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there for their 4th, 5th, 6th time in rehab or in, you know,
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coming back from relapse 456 times.
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They know the system, they know what to say, they know how to
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look good and be Mr. Recovery and Mr. Rehab and check all the
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boxes and they know how to gain trust quickly.
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They're good at manipulating because let's be honest, in
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addiction, this skill is probably the most widely used as
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manipulation. I manipulate my family to keep
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using and drinking. I manipulate my drug dealer to
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give me more drugs without me having to give up more money
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because I don't have the money. There's a lot this skill is
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sharpened in in addiction. Just because someone knows
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recovery language doesn't mean they're living recovery
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principles. This is a common thing that we
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see in recovery spaces where people can talk, to talk all day
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and they can quote the book and they look very healthy.
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But when they leave the meeting, they're screaming at old women
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and they're flipping people off and they're cutting people off
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in traffic and they're just miserable to be around.
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They're not good people. They're not acting on good
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principles. I shouldn't say not good people.
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They're not acting like good people.
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They're not acting on recovery, spiritual principles, how
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manipulation shows up. So some common patterns of a
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manipulation is fast emotional bonding.
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So trauma bonding. In other words, we're bonding on
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past traumas. I've been through that, you've
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been through that too. That was tough.
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How did you get through it? We have a, we create a bond on
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our past traumas and our past experiences.
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Love bombing intense attention early.
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I always say this, but we come into rehab, we come into
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recovery and you take away my medicine, I'm going to look for
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other things to fill that God sized hole that I have deep
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inside me. What's a better way than to fill
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it with a person? To fill it with sex?
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This is what happens when people come into early recovery.
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They look for new things to use and abuse and get high from.
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I can get high from other people's attention.
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I can get high if I'm people pleasing and I have codependency
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issues, which a lot of us do when we come in here.
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That person that I relate to so much can fill that hole and make
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me feel whole, make me feel better.
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They can be my drug. I can snort them.
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So creating dependency, you need me to stay sober.
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This is a manipulation tactic. I can help you stay sober and
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without me, you're not going to stay sober.
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Isolating from others. They don't understand you like I
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do. This is another tactic.
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Blurring boundaries. This is a dangerous one,
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emotional, physical, controlling.
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So there's no boundaries. There's, you know, they're
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manipulating, making you think that things are OK, you're safe.
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Meanwhile, you're they're crossing every boundary that you
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have. And it's hard to to create a
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boundary in early recovery. Some red flags to look for,
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moving too fast, secrets or private communication.
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How many people in rehab have seen those rehab relationships?
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I Lord knows I've seen so many of them where two people are
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just hanging out a little bit too much and they're being
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secretive and they're doing their own thing.
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This is fucking dangerous in recovery ice.
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It creates isolation. And then if that person relapses
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and then you've made that person your higher power, what now?
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What Now? That person is relapsed.
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I'm going to probably relapse because I don't know who to lean
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on. I don't know who to trust.
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I don't have a recovery community.
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I only had this one person. It's dangerous.
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Don't make anybody your higher power.
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Another red flag is making you feel chosen or special.
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This sounds very culty, but it's this classic manipulation,
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one-on-one and undermining staff or other supports.
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Have you ever ignored a red flag in your recovery relationships
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because you didn't want to lose that connection?
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You didn't want to offend the person, You didn't want to feel
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bad? You might have a relationship
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right now that is built on manipulation and built on
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predatorial behavior and it, you know, you can get out of it,
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right? But it's am I afraid to say
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something that I'm going to lose this person and is this
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relationship healthy for me? Only you can decide that.
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So what are some of the consequences of this
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manipulation in these relationships?
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These really tight knit bonds and early recovery, especially
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opposite sex emotional consequences are confusion,
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shame, attachment, trauma. Recovery consequences are
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relapse. Risk increases for sure.
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Focus shifts from recovery to relationship.
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I always say this, if you put anything before your recovery on
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the priority list, if recovery is not at the top of that list,
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if you put anything above that, you will relapse.
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It's only a matter of time. When I first came back, I put my
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wedding above my recovery. I put my marriage above my
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recovery. And what happened?
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Well overtime I was spending more energy on trying to perfect
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my marriage and my relationship that my recovery started to
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fall. I started to pick my marriage
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over my wife. To a lot of people that might
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sound fucked up and selfish. Well how are you going to put
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your wife before below your recovery?
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Trust me, I've been doing this long enough to know that if you
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put if I put anything before my recovery, I will lose everything
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else. If I put recovery at the top of
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my priority list, I will be able to enjoy all those things to the
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fullest extent because I will be a healthy, recovered person.
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I will be the best version of myself if I put my recovery
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first. I've learned that time and time
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again. So today, my recovery comes
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first in my priority list. It doesn't mean I neglect my
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wife and choose recovery meetings or recovery over her,
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recovery friends over her. It just means that First things
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first, I have to put God first. I have to put my recovery first.
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Those are synonymous for me. So another way this power
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imbalance can escalate in this manipulation, this relationship,
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in this 13th stepping is emotional manipulation, control.
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The person has control over you and power, and in some cases
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exploitation. They can exploit you to do
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things for them because they hold the power.
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The hard truth of all this is some people relapse because of
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these dynamics and they don't even notice that they're in it.
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Early recovery is about rebuilding yourself, not
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attaching yourself to someone else to feel OK.
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That is so important. Focus on yourself.
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Be selfish in the way that don't be selfish in the world, but be
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selfish in the way that you're going to put your recovery
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program first. You're not going to think of
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yourself all the time, but you're going to put your
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recovery 1st until at least you get some time where you can
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start being of service more to other people.
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It's a funny paradox though. Service, because service in
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helping others benefits my recovery today.
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It benefits my ability to get out of myself.
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And it's sort of this weird paradox where when I'm helping
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somebody else, I'm less selfish, but I'm also more selfish in
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that I'm putting my recovery first by helping someone else
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through their recovery. It's a weird paradox that you
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can only experience. I can't explain it to you.
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So how do I protect myself from 13 stepping or how do I protect
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someone else? Maybe no major relationships in
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early recovery. You hear that a lot.
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I did a whole episode with Caitlin about codependency and
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relationships and recovery. Just try to focus your first
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year on yourself. You, the relationships will
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come, but you really don't have a lot to offer.
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I didn't have a lot to offer in my first year of recovery.
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I came in with my marriage, so that's different.
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I couldn't just run away from my marriage.
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I had to focus on that. But I put my recovery program
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first always, or at least I try to.
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I work on that every single day. I'm not perfect, right?
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We're talking about progress, not perfection here.
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So generally, people suggest it takes six months to a year to
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just focus on yourself, build yourself esteem, build your
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recovery program, build your recovery skills, your spiritual
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principles before you can bring anything into another
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relationship. Also, when you come in, you're
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not aware of these red flags. When I came into recovery I'm
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not 100% self aware, I'm not aware of the manipulation
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tactics of somebody else so it's best just to avoid them all
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together. I've never and I I can honestly
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say this, I've never in my life seen a rehab relationship work
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out where both people stay sober and don't relapse and I usually
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it ends in the ultimate price in death.
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And that's sad to say, but it's true it I've never seen a rehab
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relationship or early recovery relationship Work out some
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practical boundaries here. So keeping your relationships
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peer based, not dependent. Avoid secrecy.
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I always say secrets. Keep a sick.
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You're only as sick as your secrets.
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Staying connected to multiple supports, not just one person.
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Don't put all your recovery in one person.
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Get a mentor, get a sponsor, whatever that looks like for
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you. Trust structure, not
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individuals. So trust the process, not any
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human person. Humans are finite.
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The program, the power, God, whatever you want to call it.
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The universe spirit is infinite. Put your trust in that.
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Slow everything down. So if it feels intense, pause.
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Speak up. If something feels off, say
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something to staff or trusted support.
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Say something to A say something to a tenured member of your
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group. If you see some behavior that is
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predatorial or 13 stepping or say something, speak up.
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Tell somebody about it. Safety in recovery isn't just
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about substances. It's about who you let close to
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you, who you let in. Ask yourself this question.
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Where do I need to get stronger boundaries in my life right now?
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Where do I need stronger boundaries in my life right now?
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So next, for people with more time, let's talk about
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accountability here. You, whether you realize it or
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not, you have influence over other people, over others in
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recovery. People look up to you.
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I know we're not supposed to put anyone on a pedestal in
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recovery, but there are a lot of men in my life in recovery that
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I put on a pedestal I look up to.
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I want to be like them. I don't.
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I want what they have in their spiritual principles, their
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spiritual connection, their program.
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I don't want their cars. I don't want their lives.
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I want their principles. I want to act the way they are.
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I want to be the kind of man that they are.
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I look up to them and if I want what they have, I got to do what
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they did. We have a responsibility as
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people with time, with months, with years that have been in
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this program for a long time, in recovery for a long time.
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We have a responsibility to protect the newcomer.
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I firmly believe that. Don't pursue them, get them help
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that they need. If you see a new female, you're
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a male coming in. Guide them.
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Like I said to a female that has a strong recovery program.
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I've done that many times. You could save their life.
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Be aware of the power imbalance that exists in rehab, in
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recovery. Real recovery includes integrity
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in relationships, doing the right thing when nobody is
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watching. So let's reframe the experience.
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Important nuance here is that this is not about blaming the
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person who experienced it. It's vulnerability was
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exploited, not a weakness, but a state.
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The growth angle here is awareness turns into boundaries,
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turns into stronger recovery. So let's just be aware of this
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behavior. It's it could be happening in
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your group. Be pay more attention, be more
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open to it. You may save someone's life.
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You may get somebody helps get somebody sober by preventing
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this behavior, this 13 stepping, this uncomfortable predatorial
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touching or harassment. Some people don't want to get
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hugged and we go and hug them anyways.
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Be aware of that. Ask somebody before you touch
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them, before you hug them, before you talk to them even.
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Do you feel safe right now? Do you feel safe in this group?
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Is there anything I can do to help?
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We need to take more responsibility for the new
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people coming in so that they can feel safe in recovery and
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early recovery. Remember how hard it was coming
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in and how vulnerable and how naked you felt walking into
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recovery, how dangerous it felt. Be aware of that.
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Help somebody else through it. It's not easy, but it is simple.
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If you're new in recovery, I want you to hear this very
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clearly or you're coming back. You deserve safety.
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I was made felt. I was made felt safe in early
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recovery when I went into my groups.
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If you're a part of a group or recovery community that you
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don't feel safe in, fucking leave.
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There's tons of groups in the city, in every city.
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There's online meetings. There's tons of recovery
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communities that are will make you feel safe.
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I've been a part of so many of them.
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You don't need to stay because you think that's the only
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grouper has good leave. If it's uncomfortable, find a
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new group. Tell somebody about how you're
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feeling. Maybe you're overthinking it,
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maybe that person does it. You don't need to be around that
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person. Speak up, talk about it.
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You deserve respect, and you deserve the space to figure out
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who you are without someone else shaping that for you.
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You deserve the space to figure out who you are in recovery
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without somebody else telling you or shaping it for you.
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Recovery is about finding yourself, not losing yourself in
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someone else. I can't stress this enough.
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If you're in early recovery, just focus on yourself, man.
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Just the relationships will come.
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The the men will come, the women will come.
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The relationship will come. When you are spiritually fit,
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when you are on firm spiritual ground, when you are confident
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in yourself and your recovery abilities, it will come.
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Maybe you don't need to look for it right now.
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Maybe this time is best spent working on yourself, helping new
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men through if you're a man, and helping new women through if
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you're a woman. Nobody deserves to feel like
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they're being pursued or attacked or harmed or harassed
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in any way in early recovery. This is needs to be a safe space
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and you can create that safe space for somebody else,
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especially if you've been around for a while.
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Go out of your way, reach out your hand, create that safe
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environment. If you see 13th stepping going
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on, please for the love of God, end it.
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Step up to the plate. Tell that person to stop doing
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it. Tell somebody else if you're
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uncomfortable with that, that has more time than you and just
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be of service. How can I be of service?
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This is so important. A lot of women and men go back
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out because they are 13th steps because they are made to feel
19:24
not safe in recovery. Why would I, if I'm new in
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recovery, why would I go into a recovery space where I'm feeling
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harassed, pursued, 13th stepped, when I could just go back out
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and use drugs and it'd be a lot easier because this environment
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is not safe. I felt safer in my home doing
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cocaine and meth. Think about that.
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Let's get together and create a safe environment for everybody
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no matter what. Race, creed, color, religion,
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fucking status, economic status doesn't matter.
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We are all here for one problem and we are all here to pursue
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one solution that is contented sobriety.
20:00
If nobody has told you this today, I love you.
20:03
Please like, subscribe, follow the podcast.
20:06
I love every single one of you. Recovery is simple and it's not
20:10
easy.