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Impact Of COVID-19 On Women In Healthcare · The SHEA Podcast

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Rapid Response Podcast brought to you by the Society for Healthcare Epidemiology of America, Shay, promoting the prevention of healthcare associated infections and antibiotic resistance, and seeking to advance the field of healthcare epidemiology and antibiotic stewardship.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: Chrissy Woods, hospital epidemiologist and medical director of infection prevention at Mount Sinai West Hospital, and I will serve as your moderator.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_04: Discussion on the podcast does not reflect Shay's perspective, but facilitates communication of multiple perspectives and experiences as we go through this challenging time together.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: She is excited to launch this episode of the podcast.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: COVID-19 updates what we know now.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: Today's discussion will focus on the impact of COVID-19 on women in healthcare.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_04: Our speakers today are Dr.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_04: Hilary Babcock, Professor of Medicine and Infectious Diseases at Washington University School of Medicine and Medical Director of Infection Prevention and Occupational Health for BJC Healthcare.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: Dr.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: Annabelle December, Assistant Professor of Pediatrics in the Division of Infectious Diseases, and the Co-Chief of Infection Prevention for UCLA Health.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: And Dr.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: Kyle Patel, Assistant Professor at the University of Michigan Health System and Medical Director of Antimicrobial Stewardship, VA Ann Arbor.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you all for joining us today.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_04: Before we start our discussion, I would like to turn it over to Dr.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_04: Jennifer Hannerham to get us started with a brief news and guidance update for the week.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: As of May 5th, 2021, there have been 153 million seven hundred and thirty-eight thousand one hundred and seventy one confirmed cases of COVID-19, including three million two hundred and seventeen thousand two hundred and eighty-one deaths reported to the World Health Organization.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: In the United States, one hundred and forty-seven million eight hundred and ninety-four thousand six hundred and seventy-one people have had at least one dose of vaccine against COVID.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: A study published in Clinical Infectious Diseases on April 28th describes late conditions diagnosed one to four months following an initial COVID-19 encounter.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: This study used the Premier Healthcare Database Special COVID-19 release data during March to June 2020 and included 27,589 inpatients and 46,857 outpatients diagnosed with COVID-19 who were matched with patients without COVID-19 through the four-month follow-up period by using propensity score matching.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: During 31 to 120 days after an initial COVID-19 inpatient hospitalization, 7% of adults experienced at least one of five post-COVID conditions.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Among adult outpatients with COVID-19, 7.7% experienced at least one of 10 post-COVID conditions.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: During 31 to 60 days after an initial outpatient encounter, adults with COVID-19 were 2.8 times as likely to experience acute pulmonary embolism as outpatient control patients and were also more likely to experience a range of conditions affecting multiple body systems such as nonspecific chest pain, fatigue, headache, and respiratory, nervous, circulatory, and gastrointestinal system symptoms than outpatient control patients.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Children with COVID-19 were not more likely to experience late conditions than children without COVID-19.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: An article published in Infection Control and Hospital Epidemiology on May 3rd examined vaccine hesitancy among healthcare workers.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: The authors state that their institution has offered a messenger RNA COVID-19 vaccine to all employees since January 2021.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: They collected data on vaccination rates among hospital employees and looked for differences in demographic groups to determine in which groups vaccine hesitancy is the highest.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Those who received at least one dose of vaccine were considered vaccinated for the purpose of this study.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: There was a 71% vaccination rate among all hospital employees as of March 10, 2021.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Age over 50, working in a clinical department, and white race compared to black African American race were all significant factors for receiving vaccination.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: The authors conclude that in a population with equal access to the COVID-19 vaccine, there were significant differences in vaccination rates among different demographic groups, suggesting that attitudes towards vaccination and not simply access to the vaccine are factors in vaccination rates.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: One of the many things that changed during the pandemic was medical education.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: An article published in JAMA Surgery examined the impact of the pandemic on general surgery residents' operative experience.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: The authors state that the suspension of elective operations in March 2020 to prepare for the COVID-19 surge posed significant challenges to resident education.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: They examined the association of the pandemic with general surgical residents' operative experience by postgraduate year and case type and to evaluate if certain institutional characteristics were associated with a greater decline in surgical volume.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: A retrospective review was performed that included residents' operative logs from three consecutive academic years, 2017 to 18, 2018 to 19, and 2019 to 2020.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: From 16 general surgery programs, data were collected, including total major cases, case type, and postgraduate year.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Faculty completed a survey about program demographics and COVID-19 response.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Operative volumes from March to June 2020 were compared with the same period during 2018 and 2019.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: A total of 1,368 case logs were analyzed.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: There was a 33.5% reduction in total major cases performed in March to June 2020, compared with 2018 and 2019, which significantly affected every postgraduate year.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: All case types were significantly reduced in 2020, except liver, pancreas, small intestine, and trauma cases.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: There was a 10.2% reduction in operative volume during the 2019 to 2020 academic year compared with the two previous years.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Level 1 trauma centers had a significantly lower reduction in case volume than non-level one trauma centers.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the news for this week.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Dr.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: Hannerhan.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_04: I will now move into the discussion with our speakers.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_04: It has been a tough year for the health community and really for the global community, but especially for women.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_04: Data shows that women have been disproportionately affected as they shoulder the brunt of pandemic life, both in the domestic sphere and on top of their work demands.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: How do you think women can give themselves time back and improve their quality of life?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: And how do you think systems can be changed going forward to mitigate this inequality?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I can go first.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of the challenges during this pandemic has been that a lot of women are the primary caretakers for their children.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: And as schools were closed, a lot of women were obligated or had not much choices as far as taking care of their children since schools were closed and maybe they didn't have family support.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think one of the things that we need to look to in the future is how can we support women both in the workplace and then also in the home.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think having some opportunities for flexible work schedules at academic medical centers and other health positions would also improve women's flexibility and also allow the other caretakers in the family to have some flexibility to provide and take care of children in homes.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: I think having more access to child care could also help so that there's some flexibility if schools are closed or if children can't attend their school due to the coronavirus pandemic because their school is closed or whatnot.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I think having flexibility within these systems would really help women to continue to succeed in both their work and domestic life.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Annabelle.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree with a lot of the points that you just made.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think one thing that's really important to remember is that there are some situations, of course, where women are the primary and sole caretaker because they really are the sole caretaker.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: They are a single parent, they don't have family around, you know, to help out.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of women are in dual parent families.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: And many of them are in dual parent families with men.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that women are still the ones who are still having to make all of the big changes and all the big sacrifices and they're looking for the job flexibility still reflects that we expect that of women and we don't expect that of men.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that when we talk about job flexibility to respond to emergencies like a pandemic, it just highlights that the smaller emergencies that happen all the time.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: This concept of the default parent, who's the first call, who's the most likely person to go, still vast majority of the time ends up being the woman in that couple.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that this has really highlighted that while maybe that is sustainable, it's not a great plan, but maybe sustainable when it's occasional intermittent events.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not sustainable when the response is you'll have to be home with your kid who's out of school for six months.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that when we look at ways that we can give women more flexibility in their jobs, I think we have to look at ways that everyone can have more flexibility in their jobs so that when couples are having these conversations at home.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: My husband, also a physician, we would, you know, we have sort of a hierarchy.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Whoever has a clinical commitment today, that wins.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have to be in clinic or you're on service, then the other one has to cancel all their meetings and stay home.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that works okay.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're both on service, then you know, how do you make those decisions?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: And the system really has to allow that flexibility so that both people can keep their careers moving forward and both people can support their children.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: Hilary, I think those are really great points.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that it just highlights the need that flexibility in the workplace for both men and women will benefit everyone.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks, Annabel.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: I think this reminds me actually of a podcast that I listened to recently where they were talking about the late Ruth Bader-Ginsburg, and she told the story about how she was the one who was always called from school whenever a child was sick or whenever something had happened, and finally she'd had enough.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: And she said to the person who called her, you know, my son has two parents, you can call the other one sometimes.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: And she really kind of worked with that not only sort of advanced women's equality, but specifically, you know, spoke to the fact that we really do need to kind of break down those barriers that you've all alluded to.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: So it's just a society that kind of really puts the share of the child care on women.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_04: And I think because it maybe maybe societal constructs or or maybe just the areas of interest that women have to sort of gravitate towards, there are a lot of women who do end up as healthcare workers and they really do make up the large share of the world's frontline healthcare personnel.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_04: But I think these women aren't always recognized for the work that they do as much as men are.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: So, what do you think women can do to actually gain more recognition for their work during the pandemic?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_04: And how can institutions incorporate processes that encourage more equitable recognition?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_05: You know, at here at University of Michigan, even before the pandemic, some of my peers and I had had started what was an informal peer mentorship program.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_05: And I will say, like during the pandemic, we continued to meet virtually, and that has been really, really helpful in multiple ways.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we really try to, you know, sponsor each other.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_05: If someone is working on something, we try to recognize them, whether it's in the university or on Twitter or social media, because sometimes it's easier to celebrate your friends' achievements than it is yourself.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_05: But I think that that can be a really good and easy way for people to really elevate themselves by elevating their peers, because that's going to be the next generation of leaders.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_05: And so I found during the pandemic, like, you know, especially that a lot of scholarship and literature that has come out, especially for me, but I think for a lot of people, came out of ideas that you perhaps were bouncing back and forth with friends as you were in the middle of, you know, trying to figure out what your stewardship team should do about this whole hydroxychloroquid mess and you're spitballing ideas with other people.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_05: And that can turn into a publication.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_05: So I think really thinking about peer mentorship going forward out of the pandemic, I think could be really, really helpful to this question.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think, Pyle, that's a great idea.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I am always jealous when I hear about your peer mentorship group and wish that I had a perfect peer mentorship group here as well.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Though definitely have friends and colleagues that we support each other.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: It just doesn't feel quite as formalized, maybe, as what you're describing.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: One thing that WashU has done that we have done through our division and through our department, specifically in response to the COVID pandemic, I wish I could give credit.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't actually know exactly where this came from initially, but there was something that was circulated about having a COVID section on your CV where you could highlight the specific things that you did in response to COVID.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that also then shows that if there is a gap in your CV in terms of publications or in terms of, you know, presentations or talks, what were you doing during that time?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in a year or two, we won't remember.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can barely remember now what I was doing last month, much less a year ago.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: So really trying to keep track of what those things were, go back through your own calendar as things get maybe knock on wood a little bit calmer.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Find all those town halls that you did, find those media presentations that you did and media interviews that you did, find the policies and procedures that you wrote for your organization and put them all in this section on your CV that you can really highlight that.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that will also help to document that work and to show what a service you were for your organization and for your community.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the things that you've done talking to businesses and talking to community leaders and all of that media stuff that so many of us have been doing is all community education and outreach and should be recognized as such on our CVs.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that, you know, can only help going forward.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: Hilary, I think that's a really great point because a lot of what we do isn't able to be searched by PubMed, right?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I think sometimes we always think about, you know, achievements in terms of publications, things like that.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: But a lot of what I've done this past year is really exactly as you said, developing policies, talking to community groups, et cetera.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: And those things aren't going to be easy to find using a search engine.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks, Annabel.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: I think this also comes back to the concept that Kyle touched upon, which is that often, you know, we're not ones who are going to celebrate our own successes.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I think there are some really great ideas, even amongst this conversation, about what we can do to highlight those things.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_04: On a similar note, women in healthcare believe that the COVID-19 pandemic will slow down their career progressions.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: And the example you gave about maybe having a gap in publications, there actually is data that shows that the proportion of women lead authors in 2020 on COVID-19 related papers was 23% lower than their representation among lead authors in 2019.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_04: So outside of publishing, which of course is much more measurable, it's something you can look up on PubMed, it's something that you can list on a CV.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_04: What other detrimental career impacts have you seen or heard about?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_04: Can you tell us a little bit about your own experiences or how you and your colleagues have tried to mitigate this impact for yourself and for other women?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that the other sort of measurable ways that we see that impact is probably in grant applications and grant funding as well.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll talk about those in a second.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to, however, disregard the less measurable ways that this can happen as well.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if all of the work that you're doing during the pandemic isn't documented, if what you did was pick up some extra clinical service that was critical for getting your hospital through this time, you know, those can be harder to document and can be sort of lumped into, well, a normal response to a pandemic, but interrupted the other things that maybe you needed in order to hit promotional criteria may have affected.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: And for and for other women, if their work is really RVU based and clinically based, and then say in a surgical field, all your operations were suspended for you know a few months or for six months, then you may not hit targets either.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that you know the systems and organizations really have to look at what that impact was and how can they help to keep those people whole going forward.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that requires, you know, being thoughtful and taking a minute to really look at what that impact might be.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: In our division here at Wash U, I definitely had some moments where I was just working flat out from the IP and Oc Health perspective for our multi-hospital system and long hours and billions of emails and constant meetings and no real sense that I could sort of get my head above water even to think about what a research, you know, process might be.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: But luckily had colleagues that were helping with some of that work, but not maybe to the same degree of overwhelmedness that I was.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we said to each other, like, so Jenny Kwan, for example, who's a junior faculty member, she's really a mid-career researcher here at Washi U and an amazing researcher, loves doing research.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: And she helped me a lot with aug health and infection prevention.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then she was like, we're not letting everyone else run this research program going on from here.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: So she's like, I'm gonna write these grants and you're gonna just review them and we're gonna put them in.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get this.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so she really helped me do that.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then as a more senior person, my name may have helped for some of those proposals so that together we were able to get some funding and to be able to keep some projects moving forward that might have ended up stalled.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you know, we can look around and find people in different situations and really see how we can complement each other's work to help each other continue to move forward, but you have to see what's happening.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, you have to have people who can help you see what's happening because in the midst of it, it's harder to see what's really happening.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, totally agreed.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_05: I I would say like knowing a little bit, Dr.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_05: Babcock has also like gone out and been like an amazing mentor and colleague to Dr.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_05: Kwan as well.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_05: And so, like, you know, building those relationships before it comes to this stressful situation, either as a peer, mentor, if you are a mentor to your mentees, so that you know you can really, really move forward and have someone you can lean on when something like this happens.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_05: If someone is listening to this podcast and trying to take away what are some actionable things I can do.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_05: I came to this podcast because I want to try to take some actionable things away.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_05: I would say, you know, so far, there's a couple of things that we've talked about that I would try to do.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_05: One is, you know, look for there's a bunch of examples of like how COVID impacted and how you can update your CV.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_05: Try to do that and then don't just leave it there.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_05: Try to get together, share that with a couple of your colleagues that you think could benefit from that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's always helpful because that makes you do it, but then it also like kind of shares like the victory, the spoils of victory with your friends.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_05: I know when I went on maternity leave, I tried to finish all of my projects and then I had a template email that I sent to my mentees and I was like, here is like the date that I'm due.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_05: I have like done each of these things with your projects.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_05: Here is the like other co-mentor that you can contact while I'm out.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_05: And and that's it.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_05: And then I shared that with my peer mentorship group.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_05: And I was like, if anyone becomes pregnant, share this, you know, save this email because this was incredibly helpful.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_05: So I think sharing some of those things with whether it's your peers or your mentees or your mentors can really, I mean, I think really, really actionably help.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_05: And I hope these takeaways help some of our listeners.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for those thoughts, Kyle.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_04: I think it is really important to also, you know, not only hold ourselves accountable, but also to look for opportunities to help those in our department who we think could benefit from it and in that way make it a better and more equitable place to work.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_04: And thinking about that, that's obviously an individual sort of action that we we can take.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_04: But how do you think that healthcare systems and academic institutions can work better with women to ensure that they're better represented and supported and particularly to advance them into leadership positions?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of the things that Pyle mentioned, having some of these formal mentorship groups can be really helpful because often what we say is go out and seek a mentor, right?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're new at an institution, that might be difficult.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: You might not feel comfortable reaching out to senior leaders or knowing necessarily who the best person for you to connect with.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: I found it really helpful.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Our university has a peer mentorship group where we actually meet with others who are at the same level as we are.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then I've formed some really great friendships with those people.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: And outside of those formal mentoring sessions, I've also been able to gain a lot from talking to them about different challenges that they've faced and that I'm facing.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's something that's really helpful.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: I also think just having access to other women leaders in your institution, and I think that tends to be a little bit more of an individual thing, but trying to nurture those relationships and trying to reach out to others who are in leadership positions at your institution and talking to them about some of the ways that they've been able to navigate some of the politics.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: I found that really helpful as well, especially since I was kind of thrown into this leadership position at the beginning of the pandemic and wasn't familiar with some of the politics or others who were in these leadership positions.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I wasn't exactly sure how to navigate everything.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I found that also really helpful outside of the formal mentorship sessions.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks, Annabelle.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think those are really great points and really highlight the importance of that supportive network to really help both build your own confidence and your own ability to succeed, and also to help sponsor and support each other, you know, as people try to move forward.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think from a system and institutional perspective, I think this takes a lot of intentionality from the leadership and the bureaucracy of the institutions that we work for.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: It has to be a conscious, thoughtful goal that they want to help women succeed.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: They want to help everyone succeed, but need to recognize that women and people of color and people of different ethnic backgrounds or people with different gender identities have additional barriers to that success and that they can benefit from those additional pools of amazing leaders if they as an institution can help those people overcome barriers, remove those barriers to help them move forward.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that, you know, that takes a lot of work from allies, that takes a lot of work from institutional leaders.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that to Annabelle's point as well, it's not just about proposing women for specific leadership positions, but it's about identifying people early, helping them find resources and mentoring teams and leadership training and getting for them to go to leadership courses and then helping them once they step into that position, don't then be like, okay, I got you there.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Let's see how you do, right?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Come help them, give them your the benefit of your expertise about the politics and the background and you know, help them navigate some of those things as they adjust to that new role.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there are a lot of ways that people can do that, but it does take just this very thoughtful intentionality, which I think is sort of hard to describe and build.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's hard to benchmark on.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know a better way to sort of describe or to require that that happen.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: Hilary, I couldn't agree more.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_04: I think sometimes, you know, there are people who come in new into a field and they definitely have something about them that sort of makes those around them say, you know, this would make this would be somebody who could be a good leader in the future.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it is important to give them access to resources to get them there and to your points.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_04: So once they are there, find ways to continue to support them.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_04: And if we think about our own fields and about women who might be new to healthcare epidemiology and infection prevention, do you have any advice for people who are are new to the field?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_05: I would highly recommend, no matter where you are, if you're like a med student, resident, fellow, junior faculty, mid-career, and you're kind of coming to this, I would highly recommend thinking about getting involved in Shay, IDSA.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_05: These are these are places where usually we have really fun in-person meetings.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_05: It's an awesome time to kind of get to know people who are doing the exact same thing that you are nationally.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_05: And I found that the mentorship programs in both Shea and IDSA can be really, really helpful, especially if you're just trying to meet people and you may not locally have someone that potentially could give you, you know, advice or just be like someone out there who can help you network.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_05: I really highly recommend kind of getting involved.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's like a super cool club.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: I am always happy to be a spokesperson for Shay, because I totally agree.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Shea has been an incredible support for me throughout my career, both through the skills that I learned there, the evidence base that I can be refreshed on every time I go to a meeting or do one of their educational activities.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: But also through the colleagues that you meet there.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think particularly healthcare epi, stewardship, infection prevention, these can end up being kind of lonely roles at your own facility, especially if you're if you're not part of a system or a big group where there's a lot of you doing that work.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you take a lot of pressure and there's a lot of questions and you need that team of people that you can rely on.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been doing this a long time, but during COVID was absolutely texting with colleagues and friends from Shay at other institutions so that I could come back to my institution and say, we are not alone in doing this, or oh, we are alone in doing this and we should shift this in a different direction.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: But that has been really helpful.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And to be able to complain to each other, we all hear the same pressures and the same, you know, pushes and complaints from the same constituents.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's good to know that that's also not unique to where you are.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: And also just from a personal and promotion standpoint, when you eventually, if you're in an academic setting and you need to be promoted, you will need letters from people that are not at your institution.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: And Shay and IDSA are great ways to have that network so that you can identify people who will recognize your expertise outside of your organization and that will really help you in your own career advancement as well.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: I agree, Hilary and Pyle.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: I agree that the friends I've made through Shay and also from training at other institutions have helped me survive the pandemic.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'll also add, I think it helps to have some local connections as well outside of your institution.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, here in LA, we have several other large medical centers.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes we have staff that work at different medical centers.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so if we do something that's drastically different from another institution, even if it's similar to what's going on elsewhere in the country, you know, we hear about it.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's really helpful to have connections and reach out to others that are local.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think it also helps for me in pediatrics to have other pediatric faculty members at other institutions who are doing infection prevention and stewardship, because you know, there are some pediatric-specific issues that aren't always addressed the same as you know, some of the adult issues.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: For example, visitation were a little bit more lenient during COVID with visitation for pediatric patients.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it definitely helps to have others at other institutions who can help you, especially if you know they're located within the same city or state.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Animal, and thank you all for that little bit of advice.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_04: But one thing I think that's also important to remember is that we do have members with an infection prevention who may not be doctors, and there are other people who come to this from different walks of life, whether it's through a master's in public health or nursing, and there are other good organizations for them to reach out to as well.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_04: Obviously, the resources from SHA are incredible resources, and we would encourage everyone to look there.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_04: But there are organizations like APIC, which also have local chapters.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_04: So for someone who's new and really looking to get into it, you know, and is looking for yet another way to connect, I think that could be another good resource for those individuals.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_04: I think a lot of the focus recently has been around obviously the pandemic and how we can support each other.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I think Hillary, you made a comment earlier about the fact that maybe at this point there's been a lot of attention brought to the way that women have had to adjust to balancing work and life and in particular families, but that there are also things that happen outside of the pandemic in in daily life that require a response from a parent or from a caregiver.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_04: And in thinking about that, how do you all think that we women can take care of one another beyond the pandemic, beyond just the immediate sort of need now?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, this podcast came out of a discussion that we had at Shea.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_05: And we kind of we kind of touched on this.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that one theme that we've kind of heard during this podcast is flexibility is great.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_05: So if you are a boss, if you you know manage other people, my hope is that you'll come out of this being a little bit more flexible, even in your own group.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_05: One thing that I mentioned that I had been trying to do, I haven't been able to do it since I've been on service.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_05: But you know, I've been trying for one standing call a week to go outside or, you know, exercise during that call.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_05: And, you know, sometimes you got to kill two birds with one stone, especially if you wear multiple hats in your family as well as at work.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_05: And that's been one way that I've been trying to kind of move things and become a little more flexible.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_05: But I'm interested to hear what you guys think that coming out of the pandemic that we can save and keep with us moving forward.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: I have also, as anyone who knows me knows, I am really not an exerciser, but I have been trying to at least get outside and go for a walk as often, like as often as I can.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so if I aim for every day, I probably get, you know, two or three times a week, and and that's good.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: I have also, to Pyle's point, I have a couple of little hand weights now and I keep them next to my desk at home.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I have some literally, I'm not kidding, heavy books like in my office.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes during calls, I can use those to do sort of a little bit very mild resistance training and stretching, like during a call when I don't have to be talking all the time and don't have to be on camera.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm definitely going to try to keep that.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think those are great points.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: I've definitely listened to some webinars while stretching or working out.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think the other thing for me that's really been kind of one benefit of the pandemic being able to get to know others outside of infectious diseases at my institution.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: And some of those friendships and mentorship relationships have really helped me because I think it's great to have, you know, other colleagues in your field, but it also helps sometimes to have those other peers or senior leaders that you can reach out to during any stressful situations or when you need a little bit of advice that are outside of your discipline.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's another thing that I'm going to continue to do is to nurture those types of relationships.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing that I think is really important is just the benefit of Zoom and being able to stay in contact with others through virtual means.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think sometimes, you know, it's been hard to maintain some of those friendships or relationships with other colleagues because of the distance.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you always think you have to get together at Shay or IDSA in order to maintain those relationships.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: But I think realizing how connected we can all be virtually is also really important and trying to maintain those things going forward.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was really true, Annabelle.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think I also met some good colleagues in other areas that I hadn't worked with as closely before this happened.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: The only other thing I just want to add is I think, you know, a lot of people had to have conversations about flexibility with their bosses, then also within their own family and with their partner.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we should also be sure that those conversations and adjustments and changes don't get lost.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: So as Pyle said, if you as a boss or supervisor can continue to provide that flexibility, I think at WashU, we've, you know, learned that lots of our people can work just fine from home.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're working from home and they like working from home, they don't have to stay at home, but they like working from home.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that allows them to not have to pay for aftercare for their older kids.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: They can meet them off the bus.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Their kids can quietly do their homework while they finish their work.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's a cost savings for that family and that's a benefit for them.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: And if they meet all of their criteria for their promotions and for their work that they need to get done, then why wouldn't we allow that to continue to happen?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think similarly, if if you have had to negotiate within your relationship and with your partner to rethink what a default parent is, I think we should keep those things going forward as well.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: There is one book I only read half of it, I confess, but it was called Fair Play.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember the author.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: But it's about balancing like work and tasks and the tasks of running a family and a home together.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the examples that really stuck with me, which I think we heard a lot during this pandemic, was if a woman's salary is maybe not enough to cover all of daycare by itself, then they're like, well, then there's no point in the woman working because all their salary would go to the daycare.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: But why is it only their salary that goes to the daycare?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, does the other partner not want their child to be in a good daycare setting?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: And are they not also responsible for the care and feeding of those children?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: So you pool the amount of salary you can make and then you decide like what's important for you.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't want to be at work, then that's fine as well.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: But if you want to be at work, then together the two salaries can cover daycare and then you can make, you know, adjustments in other places.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that those kinds of conversations may have gotten started during this time in more places, and those also need to continue so we don't end up just back in the same situation that we were.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_04: That book is actually Eve Rodsky, and I agree.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_04: There are a lot of other similar good books that will help us to continue the conversation.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_04: And as you all have pointed out, I think the important thing is to remember the positives that we've gotten from this experience and to really continue those forward and to continue to support both the women that we know in our own institutions and that we've met through our various connections through either Shay or through other places, and to really try to kind of hold them up and to support them in the ways that we can.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: One other thought is for those of you who are in these leadership positions, maybe have taken new responsibilities as a result of the pandemic, kind of echoing back what Hillary said about changes you may have made in your own family.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: But if if you find that you've taken on new responsibilities that you did not have before the pandemic, I think it's also important to reevaluate and to talk to those who are supporting your salary.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: And if you want to continue in those positions and continue with those responsibilities, also advocate for more support or less responsibilities in other areas, because I think that a lot of what we're doing now related to the pandemic will not go away.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that it's important to also reevaluate what you're doing and whether or not you feel that that meets what you were set out to do and that it meets your compensation as well.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: So on that note, I want to thank you all for taking some time out of your day to provide us with your insight and for sharing your perspectives and experiences, and I think for bringing some really good, concrete ideas, not only about what each of us can do after listening to this podcast, but about the really important and necessary conversations that we do need to continue, whether at home, in our workplace, or with each other.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: This podcast can be accessed on SHA's online education center, learning CE, under the Rapid Response Program.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_04: You will also find resources such as the recorded webinars, healthcare facility outbreak preparedness, and the SHA COVID 19 town halls.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: This concludes this episode of the Rapid Response Podcast.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for tuning in.