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Everything You Need To Know About The Silmarillion But Were Too Afraid To Ask (Part 2) · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  So welcome to part two of our guide to the Silmarillion and Jacob is still with me to talk about
• 0:14
  what exactly there is in the covers of this book which you may have on your shelf but not yet have got all the way through.
• 0:21
  So the second age is now becoming much more familiar to all of us thanks to the Amazon Prime series.
• 0:29
  Do you want to tell us a little bit about what the Ancalabeth is about?
• 0:33
  Because we've moved completely away from the elves, don't we? Is it real changes?
• 0:38
  Yeah and this one really is different than you mentioned in the last episode that it's a different separate story.
• 0:48
  The quintus Silmarillion ends with the end of the first age really, right?
• 0:54
  So the Silmarils are gone or no longer part of it and it's not the children of fan or kind of driving things.
• 1:01
  Now you have men which aren't just exclusively male, right?
• 1:06
  So that's this catch all term for humanity and they become much larger players here.
• 1:14
  So this section of this Ancalabeth is literally, it means the downfalling.
• 1:25
  And it's the downfall, the subtitle that Julia shared earlier was the fall of Newmen or so it's a downfalling.
• 1:35
  And it's this world, this land, right? So at the end of the first age, there were part of the factions of men were kind of helpers of the elves in their war against Melkor renamed Morgoth.
• 1:52
  And they were as kind of a reward, they were given a land of their own, this island called Newmenor, right?
• 2:00
  And it has ties, you know, you see resonances with Atlantis myths.
• 2:08
  And actually, you know, that were the words for Newmenor is related to Atlantis in Elvish.
• 2:15
  But you get a different etymology that Tolkien kind of brings in there.
• 2:20
  So it's a gift, it's put kind of part way between the shores of Middle Earth and Valinor, the lands of the Valar, the gods.
• 2:29
  So it's kind of this halfway place they can, you know, just see how great it is, but they're still tied there.
• 2:36
  Because the part of the, this is something that you'll, you'll read with the Inalindale, Valakwinta, when the men are coming onto the scene is that the fate of men are different from the fate of elves.
• 2:49
  So the elves can live in, you know, this state of like bliss in the presence of the gods until the end of the world.
• 2:59
  But humans have a different fate. They are not meant to live for ages and ages in happiness.
• 3:09
  They have a different fate. And then they're kind of a people apart. They're referred to by the elves kind of as the strangers that they've, that nobody even, even the Valar don't know exactly what happens to men after they die.
• 3:25
  The elves, they're all tied up with, with in the same world, but, but men are these kind of strangers on the scene, the only, the high god Aluvatar knows what they're all about and what will happen to them afterwards, but they have an enormous impact here on the world.
• 3:41
  And so the Calabeth is essentially this following this, this land, this new manure, this kind of Atlantis-like land, and this kind of rise and then fall of these people.
• 3:53
  And of course, and this is the period that the Amazon rings of power is, is really set in and you see that that's what we're going to be following here is the kind of the, the grandeur of the kingdom of, of men here in Numenor, and then how that all goes wrong.
• 4:12
  Yeah, so I mentioned in my podcast before that the series came out that they're bringing two key events into parallel. So the making of the rings happens in around 1600, which is equivalent of two times in the second age.
• 4:31
  And the downfall of Numenor is in 3,700 and something, you know, so it's like Star Trek period way into the future from us.
• 4:40
  But in order to make the sense of a story and have connecting characters, they're bringing them in parallel.
• 4:48
  So what they won't have time to do is show the, the succession of kings of Numenor, an occasional queen.
• 4:58
  And in fact, it's told in quite a summary form in the summary in as well. There's much more detail, I think in, particularly in the unfinished tales, there's, there's much more about Numenor.
• 5:10
  But I'll spend a fair bit of time at the last king, who's this person called our pharaohs on, who is not good news. He's, he's a bit like a sort of, you remind me a bit like the Pharaoh figure, I mean his name suggests that.
• 5:29
  Certainly, Stent, he's sort of got his pretensions and he wishes to, he's the one who falls because Sarah on is there as a sort of glamorous tempter tells him, oh, you can go into the West, you know, why do you, you don't have to stay.
• 5:45
  He's like biting the tree of the fruit of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, he, he sets sail. And of course, that means that there's a kind of.
• 5:57
  I slap back to the thing right where there's a punishment that that unleashes and that is why Numenor syncs police the waves.
• 6:08
  And you may remember just to kind of be really geeky about this that in the films, airwind talks about a dream of a tidal wave coming over the land, that is linking to Numenor, that image of the, the island that syncs.
• 6:25
  But out of the wreck comes the ones who remain true and are friends to the elves. And I'm sure this is going to feature largely in the Amazon series. This is a lendil and his sons is all do and that's the other one.
• 6:44
  Use of him.
• 6:48
  I'll come back to him. Anyway, is all do and a lend all of the two key guys.
• 6:53
  And they set up kingdoms, the north and south kingdoms in middle earth, which leads us into the third age. So that in brief is what happens to Numenor.
• 7:08
  So the Ann Calibeth tells that story. And then the final section of the soul meridian is called of the rings of power and the third age. So this actually involves quite a lot of second age material, the rings of power stuff, as well as how it connects to the third age.
• 7:30
  If you're wanting just to understand the material behind Lord of the Rings and the Amazon series, and this is probably a primer for you. If you've read the appendices of return of the king, this is the next place to go.
• 7:46
  Because you've got the story, which they're not entirely sticking to, but of how the rings of power are forged. Do you want to say something about the second age and the rings of power and what happens there?
• 8:00
  Yeah, I mean, it's like, you said it's in the appendices Lord of the Rings and they kind of the prologue to the fellowship of the ring film where you get kind of right and like that showing what's happening there.
• 8:15
  But yeah, you see some of these, right, the rings, how they function, who gets them, what they do, and it's tied in all this chronologically, it's tied to the Calibeth, where Sauron, where we really get him and his involvement. So you see how this actually, you might think, you know, why, why would people willingly choose these rings to this clearly terrible 10 foot tall.
• 8:45
  A spiky, helmeted person, but what you find out earlier is that that's not how he looked at the time, right, during Numenor. Sauron actually was one of the most beautiful, came across, he appeared as somebody who was really beautiful, was really charismatic and ended up winning people over, sweet-talking people, getting in with politicians.
• 9:07
  Slowly actually kind of corrupting their kind of sense of worship or religious worship from Eluvatar, who the humans were worshiping.
• 9:17
  And the only time you actually get mention of actual religion in Lord of the Rings explicitly is in the Calibeth, where humans have kind of a holy place, where they bring the first fruits of the harvest up to kind of offer to Eluvatar.
• 9:36
  So anyway, so Sauron is kind of corrupting changing that from worshiping Eluvatar to Morgoth, which was Sauron's commander essentially.
• 9:47
  He was Morgoth's lieutenant, lieutenant, depending on which side of the ponderon.
• 9:53
  So he is really strategic, and so you show him kind of distributing these the rings around. So you get a better idea of how this would have happened.
• 10:04
  These weren't just idiotic dwarfs or humans. I think it helps to nuance it a bit, and you see exactly how it fits in.
• 10:13
  So that's something that again I think enrich your reading of Lord of the Rings to understand what's what's in stake there.
• 10:19
  The way it's arranged actually is a bit confusing for the timeline because in the rings of power part, Sauron is doing his tutor meddling if I'm allowed to use a kind of imagined timeline.
• 10:35
  And it's described how he is not trusted by Galadriel Gilgalad or Elrond.
• 10:45
  But Kela Brimble, who is the grandson of our favorite fear nor so he's got a troubled background.
• 10:58
  He and he respects this Sauron who's under another name for his craftsmanship because he shows Kela Brimble how to create rings that capture a sort of essence or power.
• 11:16
  And it's described how, and again this echoes what you get in the prologue to Lord of the Rings the film, how that when he puts so he forges the one ring in Mount Doom, hoping to sort of do what his master was trying to do that, which is in mesh everybody in his web.
• 11:34
  But when he puts on the ring, the elves who have their three rings which they made or Kela Brimble they can understand his desires and so they hide their rings which leaves the dwarf rings and the rings for men out there.
• 11:54
  It's a vulnerable and the seven dwarf rings are the foundation of the seven dwarf hordes like the riches, but they all end terribly even by dragons or whatever it's not good.
• 12:07
  And their fate is is kind of slightly you know they're not sure what happens to some of them and then of course the rings the rings for the men end up with the black riders so really not a good trajectory there either.
• 12:23
  So that comes out of that period there and he's working out that fate and and there's a battle that happens in the rings of power section where I'm afraid the odds aren't good for the outcome for Kela Brimble, but there is a sort of push push back us are on.
• 12:46
  And then he then takes on the new minorians and so that bit comes after.
• 12:51
  Then then we've back in to that section so in fact this is why it's not quite it doesn't help you the way it's arranged.
• 13:02
  Because you then get the end of the second age which again takes us right back to the beginning of Peter Jackson, the rings film to tell us about that battle who's there who is the last alliance.
• 13:16
  So the basically that's where all the story threads in mesh is at that point.
• 13:22
  Jacob, but you can tell us.
• 13:24
  That's good.
• 13:26
  I think that's that's fantastic and this is another one that I think a good entry point if somebody's daunted by the Silmarillion as a whole to take on it because this is essentially this is an essay really summarizing it so it's not really part of the.
• 13:42
  It's not part of the quantum Silmarillion proper and so it's like the calabeth which was kind of a separate story and this one is essentially an essay that was kind of occluded at the end.
• 13:52
  So this one it is I think it's a fine place to start because you'll be familiar with with with with kind of what happens there and it's done so in this kind of higher register of language you know it's kind of more epic in tone.
• 14:05
  So if you finish order the rings you could even I think easily pick up this essay it's not terribly long and just kind of read to get a sense for you could still follow along with what's happening because you have some background information.
• 14:19
  It could be a way to kind of ease yourself into the way that talking is telling these stories.
• 14:26
  Yeah.
• 14:28
  So the last battle of the last alliance I should say is where the else led by Guild Gallard team up with a lendil and is all do and others Elrons there.
• 14:45
  And they take on Sauron and defeat him.
• 14:50
  Now this moment comes when Isldo cuts the ring everybody knows I'm going now cuts the ring from the hand of Sauron which enables he has foolishly rested invested so much power in this ring because he was using it as a way of controlling others and it ends up being the thing that defeats him and he is defeated for a time.
• 15:10
  And then the story continues in this essay and you get really a summary of the events that run up in advance of the Lord of the Rings and also a summary of Lord of the Rings but seen not from the point of view of the Hobbits but as if a historian was telling it.
• 15:29
  So it's quite interesting to see it retold at that level so for example get the discussions of the council like Gandalf and his and Saruman and Elron you get to see those discussions.
• 15:46
  And you get the it's all very summary it's like a page so you know the end return of the king the end like this then Sauron failed and he was utterly vanquished and passed away like a shadow of melis and the towers of Baradur crumbled in ruin and at the room of therefore many lands trembled.
• 16:10
  Thus peace came again and a new spring opened on earth so it's extremely summary.
• 16:16
  So even before that it talks about the mentioned I don't know if you have it they're right with you where it talks about how it describes Frodo conquering I think it's just a sentence or two just right before that.
• 16:29
  Oh yeah it then it just goes for Frodo the halfling it is said at the bidding of Mitrandeer took on himself the burden and alone with his servant he passed through peril and darkness and came at last in Sauron's despite even to mount doom and there into the fire where it was wrought he cast the great ring of power and so at last it was unmade and it's evil consumed there you are that's the plot of Lord.
• 16:56
  You got it yeah I read out why read however many hundreds of pages then when you can just have in a couple sentences there right but it says right so you see like I think it's important you pointed out the perspective right so the the Silmarillion so this is framed as.
• 17:11
  As stories that from Elves so this is kind of the epic history of the Elves from the Elvish perspective and it's comes translated presumably by Bilbo right when he hands those volumes to Frodo that he's been working on in Rivendell translating of these from the tails of the Elves this is kind of presumably what Bilbo's been working on translating kind of compiling this is kind of the meta overarching kind of like narrative story here.
• 17:41
  And so this is everything is from Elves point of view with their biases with what they're paying attention to and so you know they don't mention Sam right.
• 17:49
  So yeah I don't know if he's not called Gandalf he's called with Randy which is their name exactly so you.
• 17:56
  So you tell the names it will tell you whose point of view it is yeah right and I think that's helpful for understanding the Silmarillion as a whole is that this is kind of whereas Lord of the Rings and the Haber kind of told from a hobbitish point of view.
• 18:10
  This one is the summary is told from the Elves point of view so it's in a different register with different scales of time scopes of time so that might be helpful for orienting first time readers.
• 18:21
  Yeah so we've reached the end of the text now except for a couple of family trees but you know that's it really so just a recap you start with the creation story.
• 18:33
  Which you've pronounced so beautifully I'll get you to do that again music of the eight.
• 18:38
  Thank you.
• 18:39
  I was worth bringing on to the forecast just for that.
• 18:43
  And then you've got the first stage material which is the Quenta Silmarillion and then you've got the second age material about the downfall of Numenor, the young Calabeth and then you've got the second and third age essay which is of the rings of power and the third age.
• 19:02
  And read all of those separately but we've been sort of signposting you to which ones you might want to start with so question for you Jacob which is why is it so difficult to read do you think.
• 19:19
  Yeah I think the expectations that people have set by Lord of the rings right in how it's you know the language the dialogue right so it's it's closer to kind of what you're used to in contemporary novels.
• 19:32
  Whereas and and I think it's a helpful parallel for those familiar with the Christian Bible with the Old Testament and New Testament right so.
• 19:44
  People if you're used to the gospel specifically with the stories of Jesus they're more fast paced you have.
• 19:52
  Extended episodes sometimes of like interactions people talking to each other it's focused on relationships and sometimes there's casual references to.
• 20:02
  So stories of people from the past or quotes small quotes from stories from the past that's what Lord of the rings is and so if somebody if all you have is those those kind of fast moving stories of of Jesus and the gospels and you started the Old Testament with the creation of the world and then a series of genealogies and then this you know histories of of kings and judges.
• 20:28
  And and this and this and then the stories that get repeated again and then so like that that's jarring that's why a lot of.
• 20:35
  Christians don't make it through reading the Old Testament I just stick to the New Testament but in reading through that background material everything that's happening there in the gospels is built upon the foundation the stories these the reds these themes that are happening to this people for the past you know couple few thousand years before.
• 20:55
  So it's very similar parallels and how you know the Old Testament New Testament are functioning to say the Silmarillion how that is framed and then the Lord of the ring so I think that's for for for for a lot of people that I've spoken with they stop because I think they're expecting more of Lord of the rings in tone and pacing and they're not getting that.
• 21:19
  And so it can be frustrating which is completely understandable with completely understandable so i'm going to allow you one pick so these so listeners are going to give us one chance to get us you know into it if you're coming from the Lord of the rings which is the bit that you think would be most interesting for a Lord of the rings fan to actually have a go at.
• 21:43
  Yeah I think so I think it depends.
• 21:48
  I don't have this one on the truth it could be just one I know well this one is going to say so I think I think it would depend on what you like most about Lord of the rings.
• 21:58
  So if you have like if you like romance and adventure like the adventure part of Lord of the Rings if that's what captured you most then very Baron and lithium story I think that one would probably most give you.
• 22:11
  So the you know the same kind of feel of adventure quest you know unimaginable odds you know failure unexpected successes I think Baron and lithium for people who.
• 22:23
  For for whom the adventure pull from Lord of the Rings was there, but if you like the right what happens if you like Elvish songs and Elbish prayers if that if like the Elf culture is what what really like fascinates you most then you know that then reading say the I know Lindale and the valiquenta the shorter sections at the beginning.
• 22:47
  That I think will will feed you in the way that you need to be fed that you liked for Lord of the Rings if you want if you wish that there was more Elves in Lord of the Rings and you just kind of want to sit there and listen to their songs and and culture then I think yeah then I think I know England and then it was out to a do that but.
• 23:03
  But again if you just like if you like the dynamics between men and Elves and and their dynamic and like the struggle between those people then I think yeah the of men figuring out where they came from the section of men and the account that would be great.
• 23:21
  I think most I think most people love like the rich world of Lord of the Rings the adventure as well as the sense of like mythology that like undergirds it and so I would say Baron and lithium would be my final answer.
• 23:39
  Yeah you go for Baron and I'm going to go as of today having sat and re-read it is the voyage of air and ill because I think that has some really brilliant yeah I mean you you'll find out how awful Elron's childhood was he gets basically kidnapped.
• 23:59
  And there's a whole kind of I've forgotten about that he and his brother so for me that was and there's also a real sense of bravery and sacrifice which foreshadows what Frodo does in what a rendel does so that's my that's my recommendation okay so the other sort of pose here just as we.
• 24:22
  Through things to a close is and if you want to understand the Amazon series.
• 24:28
  Where would you go the rings of power I think that's fairly obvious isn't it.
• 24:33
  Yeah yeah and if you want and I would just if and if you're ambitious uh then the akela Beth kind of gives you the immediate background there because I think they're going to be I think there's going to be significant overlap there because there is with the what's happening in the appendices and there so yeah so again that that essay of the rings of power in the third age.
• 24:50
  That's an easy place to go to and if you if yeah again if you're feeling ambitious and you want just like a little bit more just go to the previous chapter and give you more than enough information to fill in the gaps and yeah.
• 25:05
  So thank you that's been hopefully helpful to the people who are picking up some really and thinking what an earth is going on or what in order is going on.
• 25:17
  I think it's something I definitely have learned to appreciate the more you know about something the more you appreciate the texture and the depth and so it made people a while but you get there and let us know what you're doing.
• 25:33
  Yeah and I think I don't if it's okay I'd like to some something that helped me and some of my rereads through and getting through it for the first time because again it is and as much I haven't found it helpful people to say like well just be patient and read through it or read through it five times and then you'll understand it like that's not really hopeful.
• 25:51
  I'm not getting at the first time I can see that that's that's really discouraging so I mentioned last episode like the biggest thing I think that that those help for me is that I wasn't alone.
• 26:00
  There are other people who have read this material who have talked about it so the two resources that I found a few resources if you just want to go in on your own and read it.
• 26:10
  Something that I think is helpful is to listen along as you're reading to the audiobook by Martin.
• 26:16
  Oh it's brilliant absolutely brilliant.
• 26:20
  Yeah so that I think that's helpful because like if you're just because sometimes you're just sitting there and reading words like you know there's some people that if they're they're reading a phone book and it's captivating like Martin Shaw can do that right so his his voice and he's helping and he's pronouncing his pronunciation.
• 26:34
  Sometimes doesn't align well with tokens pronunciation but he's you're hearing the words so I think that can be helpful for people who feel that they're struggling just listening to that while you're reading it I think can be a way to like make it more engaged.
• 26:49
  That's one thing if you just want to do it so though if you really do want to help somebody kind of have somebody who can guide you through there's two I think for begin like very very beginning.
• 26:59
  Dr. Corey Olson who's you know nicknamed the the Tolkien professor he has a he podcast he did a survey course at his university on Tolkien on Tolkien's writings and has nine different class periods that are under an hour each.
• 27:19
  On the Silmarillion and so this is for an undergraduate audience so it's very and he says you know says like here's here's what you're going to be reading as you can read those sections and then listen to the class discussion to get some of the high level talking about some of those topics.
• 27:35
  Through that so night night episodes that's you know let less less than nine hours you can stop now it's helpful for me was stopping after I read a section and then reading something about it kind of.
• 27:46
  Re-familiarizing myself re-contextualizing myself with somebody else to kind of help refresh it make sure that I understood what was happening because it's a lot of information and so then it can it can be overwhelming for first time readers.
• 27:57
  Those first time readers for more ambitious or going through for a second time for some of the audience will be rereading the Silmarillion I highly recommend the prancing ponies podcast and they have almost 50 episodes where they're looking you know chapter by chapter having hour and a half kind of conversations where they're bringing in.
• 28:19
  They're not just not only kind of situating it in context of Lord of the Rings but also they're bringing in some additional material from unfinished tales and from the history of middle earth so they're really doing some really really important I think and thorough discussion so.
• 28:35
  First time readers I think wedding your feet I think going along with this undergraduate class overnight periods that it's that that's managed one would be helpful to just kind of give you encouragement and help you understand keep you keep you on track to finish but then for those people either.
• 28:50
  Who want more and for people who are rereading the Silmarillion and the prancing potty podcast going along through stopping after you read the sections listen to those I did that for my second to last read through and found it really really really helpful and entertaining as well.
• 29:07
  And of course what we're doing here in our reader thon is just doing the encouragement of reading with others because I think one of the you don't obviously have to listen to any of these extra materials to to give your first thoughts on the Silmarillion we're not about.
• 29:25
  We're about creativity and what it what it inspires you to imagine and think so these are don't feel that you have to have a PhD in the Silmarillion before you want to read a chapter we just wanted to give you access to these resources which have helped us.
• 29:44
  Right so before we finish and Jacob we always have a where in all the fantasy worlds is the best place for something and I was humming and hiring about themes in the Silmarillion and I decided one which I hadn't touched on before is exile because in fact the elves are in exile.
• 30:06
  The ones that we meet in middle earth well the gladiall type elves and I was thinking where in all the fantasy worlds is the best place to be in exile because you get that hankering from the country you came from but that may not be quite what you want.
• 30:26
  Because you also in love with the place you have arrived at so have you got any fantasy worlds where you thought about the theme of exile.
• 30:35
  Yeah looking and that's and it was a difficult difficult question trying to think of good I mean I don't know if the world of you know pre renaissance Italy is considered a fantasy location but don't don't it was famously in exile when he had the space to to write and create right the divine comedy essentially so.
• 31:05
  But barring an actual real world location and exile like that this and this this I recognize how this might sound but I think I think earth I think the marvel cinematic universe earth.
• 31:24
  Is the best place to go into exile like Thor right thinking of yes what a good exile yeah.
• 31:31
  From Asgard and then he like you said like you know he's longing for home but then like learns more about himself.
• 31:38
  As he comes to love the world of humans and ultimately makes him better and has all sorts of roleicking adventures with other with other heroes at the time so and it doesn't seem like you have whole scale it seemed like there be a lot more people dying there but I think because it's owned by Disney you don't have the wholesale like carnage and slaughter that would probably actually happen in our world.
• 32:08
  If you had these powers so because of that because it's a little bit safer for pedestrians in in the in the world the marvel cinematic universe and I think that's that's where I would choose to go into exile especially if I was a son of Odin yeah good.
• 32:25
  That's a good pick I hadn't thought of that one.
• 32:28
  It's actually the whole theme of exile if you're creative and think about fantasy is a really fascinating one it's a bit different from a thing we tend to associate with fantasy and I was thinking it's very common in fairy tales.
• 32:41
  And actually particularly the heroines journey is very often an exile from a home.
• 32:49
  So picking on a fairy tale character when I said that you can now think oh yeah the little mermaid and beauty in the beast and Cinderella and you see all these people are being sort of made homeless or not welcome in their own home that that form of exile.
• 33:06
  So all of those fairy tale versions I think probably the best place to going to exile is to join the dwarves in their house.
• 33:14
  That looks quite jolly and lots of company so she has one of the better exiles does so white so that's my going into exile.
• 33:28
  Anyway thank you so much for talking and spending so much time talking about this and I hope that those who are listening will find this helpful we all put the link to the resources that Jacob mentioned in our show notes and do join in our reader.
• 33:44
  Thank you very much for listening goodbye.
• 33:47
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• 34:06
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