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Episode 41 - When Adult Children Go No Contact · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Psych for Sanity.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I am one of your hosts, Dr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a licensed clinical psychologist working in private practice, and I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, she does.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Dr.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Brendel Doss.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your other host, also a licensed psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, geriatric psychology, trauma treatment, and assessment.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And today today uh there's a topic that I kind of have been thinking about a lot related to my work and also somewhat to my history.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is uh yeah, when you proposed this particular episode, I hadn't thought about it, but it was interesting to research.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was super interesting to research, and I guess uh so today we're gonna be talking about um when adult children choose to go, no contact with their their caregiver or parent.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so my thinking on this was I did not go um no contact with a parent, but when I was about to graduate high school, um I had kind of a tumultuous experience with my maternal grandmother.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And at the time she was suing my parents for a lot of reasons that are kind of outside outside the scope of the podcast.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: We won't go into detail to detail about everything.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's more that we don't have time.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: However, so it was basically my family and her, where there was a lot of conflict going on, and it was really uncomfortable for me.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I decided I didn't want her to come to my high school graduation and did not invite her, did not send her an invitation.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when she discovered that she that it was not a mistake, um, she sort of blamed my mother and said that this was my mother's doing and that my mother must be influencing me, or my mother was the one that didn't invite her.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then she took it a step further, and she sort of coaxed it out of um my grandfather.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: They were they were divorced.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're, you know, they had contact, but they were not married and had not been married for a long time.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: She coaxed it out of him when the graduation was gonna be and where it was, because she was gonna show up anyways.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting, yeah.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that felt that made me very angry.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: You just not like 18-year-old, 17 year old me was was displeased, highly displeased.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I took I decided to call her and I left a voicemail back on a like a recording machine because I'm old and I I told her that I did not invite her on purpose and that she was not welcome.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I absolutely know that that message was hurtful to her at the time, and I was hurt that she would try to violate a boundary that I had set um that was really clear that was my decision, because my mother would have let me invite anyone I wanted to my graduation regardless of her feelings.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I was experiencing the situation as really uncomfortable and didn't want that to be part of the dynamic of what was supposed to be a celebratory day.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we ended up later, um, after some time, um, there was reconciliation with my grandmother.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the relationship was always somewhat as I got older, the relationship was kind of fraught.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um she always wanted more relationally from several members of my family and really was ineffective at going about of achieving that.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that was hard.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I loved her.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um she passed away.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, she was the grandmother that passed away that first semester of postdoctoral fellowship.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh if you remember.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: That was really yeah, and you've talked about her just being being kind of a a challenging figure.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a challenging figure.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so it it was you've been thinking about that as we've been researching.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Think about that, and also I think I've had more and more patients that talk about the difficulty they experience interacting as adults with their parents.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there are several people in my family I am no contact with or low contact with.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this is an interesting topic to dive into.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and I think one reason why I specifically wanted to kind of cover this today is because the no contact movement has kind of gotten some backlash also.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize that.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotten a lot of backlash because there are now um commentators and content creators coming on and saying that people are being overly sensitive.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh, okay and people are cutting off contact over single incident experiences or over one domain like religion or politics.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I see.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I think it's interesting to sort of look at this from a complex lens today.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: So let's define it then.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: What does no contact mean?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think no contact means um it's usually related to a parent.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: It can be related to someone else in the family.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it means going from a status of being in contact and having a relationship with someone um to not having any communication whatsoever.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Usually based off a variety of reasons, but it's um a more historical term, I guess, is estrangement.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Estrangement.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Or like alien alienation, parental alienation is another term.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um in doing the research, you know, it it sounds like for it this is usually not usually not the initial goal.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: And there's all different, there's kind of a spectrum of contact, which was interesting to think about.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's low contact, right, there's limited contact, there's there's temporary separation, there's emotional distance.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's all these variety of ways that we can want to create space or distance from our parents if it is problematic.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Or feels emotionally unsafe.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: To be in closer relational contact.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I from our research, it was never the goal.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Most folks don't start off saying automatically, I want no contact.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: They start off wanting more.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And their needs are generally not being met in some capacity.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um Right.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so like um I think chronic invalidation.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is one of the reasons why people do ultimately end up going, no contact, low contact, limited con.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you've been trying to bring up an issue with your parents, or you've been trying to set a boundary with your parents, and it and it feels like it's just being it's just going unheard, unsupported, not accepted, being disregarded.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: So there are some of some of those things that I think absolutely influence our decisions, right, to create space.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: But then of course there's more severe more severe things happening, I think, for some folks that well, more classic, I would say as well.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: More like people like expect, I guess, in a situation when you might have experienced severe neglect or severe abuse of any kind.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's still abuse or manipulation or there's still not acknowledgement.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Especially with no acknowledgement, no repair, then I think you know, many yeah, people start considering limiting contact with family members.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that, you know, it it's interesting what happens in this this narrative.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: When they've done some research on this.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: This was the most interesting part of the episode for me.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, really?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's but it's so clear to me and it makes so much sense.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Generally, when they've studied the uh parental alienation or, you know, adult children's decision to disconnect from a parent um and go no contact, the stories that each party will tell about why the estrangement happened are night and day.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, vastly it was so interesting.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Vastly different perspectives, like completely polar.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um a a child, an adult child might say, you know, I kept telling mom over and over, you know, I don't want to talk about politics.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I kept setting this boundary, and she kept sending me videos that were really upsetting, and I've asked her and asked her for months, years, yeah, and I just can't repeatedly I can't keep being in a relationship with someone that doesn't care enough about me to respect this one limitation.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so so yeah, the adult children usually feel unaccepted, unsupported.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's some kind of parenting, chronic invalidation.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it that's what they would say were the reasons why they created space or went no contact or low contact.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then the the par the research, this was just really interesting to me, but maybe makes sense.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um the parents generally attribute the limited contact or no contact to the the child's entitlement.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Entitlement.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Entitlement.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Entitlement.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's a real and and it could be, I did not look at this angle research-wise.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it could be different generations have different perceptions about what a parent should be allowed to say to a child regardless of their age.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there is some more, I think, like traditional parents are maybe more author authoritarian, r respect, you know, your parent no matter what.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm you you should listen to what I say even if you're 35 and have a job.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always your parent, right?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of and that you should always follow what I think is best.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And like that that, you know, some people really view if I'm your parent, then you're you should always still I'm still the authority figure.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Revert to my opinion.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And not have a different one.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but you know, healthy parent-child relationships are more mutual.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's not right, you know, it it it's gonna be challenging if that's still the dynamic with your 35-year-old kid.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, th yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: So entitlement or I thought this other part was so interesting.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Either entitlement or the influence of the adult child's spouse.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes or partner.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Just so-and-so doesn't like me or so-and-so wants so-and-so turned against my son against me.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or it's really so-and-so who wants the boundaries, like they're sensitive or whatever.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like that's well, it's easier to blame someone else than to look at your own behavior.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess if you think about the pattern over time, the idea is that you go low contact or no contact, sure, potentially, possibly, you know, because of invalidation, because you have tried and they are not seeing it, they're not understanding it, they're not taking responsibility.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: If they're focused on, oh, it's entitlement or it's your it's my child's spouse, that is a lack of accountability if I've ever heard one.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Other things in the research were interesting about this was parents will tell themselves, Well, she uh, you know, stop speaking to me because I I made one comment at a Thanksgiving.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the child's narrative is Oh, I think that's it's not one Thanksgiving mom.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's 20 Thanksgiving.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's not one event.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Parents often will say, let's look because of this one event, and children, most often, adult children, will say there's been a pattern, like you just said.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Over time of of the same boundary violation.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: So then it's like they kind of feel no choice really to if they are trying to preserve their own mental health, mental sweat, yeah, their own health.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, to sort of to take some space, um which is hard.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Which is really, really hard.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I thought that was really interesting um in the research.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: I also want to make sure we talked about low or structured contact.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think we should maybe divine that.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So low low contact would be someone from the adult child's perspective that for a variety of reasons that we kind of listed, or maybe other ones that we haven't, there's a lot of reasons why someone might choose this.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because they experience their parent from a certain perspective that is uncomfortable for them emotionally, they might only see them once a year.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or they might only call them twice a year on their birthday or a holiday.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or they may only speak on the phone for ten minutes before they need like you know, it's small doses.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they limit to the amount of time that they will spend with them.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or when they're you know, they visit for the holidays, it may be we're gonna choose to stay in a separate place than at the house.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, right.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or meet at a neutral location kind of.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so there's yeah, and you know, when we're talking about emotional distance, then I think for people who feel emotionally unsafe, sure, they may intentionally choose to keep parts of themselves hidden, right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or they not expose, they don't feel safe or comfortable talking about particular emotions or choices, choice or politics or religion, or like beliefs or decisions like lifestyles.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: So they, you know, it doesn't feel emotionally safe to be open about that stuff, so they keep it to themselves, and that's a conscious choice, right?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's emotional distance, and that's another type of kind of estrangement, I suppose, if you want to think about it on a continuum that way.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like and I think again, like it never necessarily starts out for like um day one no contact.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: So Right.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it also like more and more adult children are making this decision, not necessarily because there is abuse.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think historically more traditionally, more traditionally, we think about parental alienation or estrangement as a consequence of abuse, mistreatment, betrayal, kind of the the big, the big stuff.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: But but more and more I think adult children are are you know creating space because they don't feel emotionally.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think so I'm an old millennial.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you classify as an old millennial birth based off your date of birth.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: What's your year?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: What year are you born?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: Eighty-four.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Eighty-four, okay.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm eighty-six, so I then I think is that an old millennial?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think you might be a like the next one.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is it Gen Z or I don't know.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm a millennial.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't actually know all these terms.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks to you.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you, Dylan.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Dylan.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, oh my gosh, how have I labels?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right, labels.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Labels.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so what I think is interesting is I think the c the idea of oh, your parents were abusive, that's why you don't talk to them, was more socially acceptable of different generations.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Still it still still some people would receive pushback from that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, and you talked about the backlash.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like some people think I think creating no contact, low contact just because of emotional invalid, like the elasticity.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: But that's my point is I think it's more of the recent generations and less of older generations that are doing low, no, or structured or no contact for emotional reasons alone.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Which is new.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think, you know, um and that's I think one thing that's important to highlight is that I don't think that any adult child that disconnects from a parent necessarily enters that decision lightly.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of grief.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um there might be some relief, but also grief and sadness.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think and guilt.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Guilt probably.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: I guilt is probably there too.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I I do, you know, um feeling sad and grieving this decision and the you know, not seeing your parents as much doesn't necessarily mean that you've made any kind of wrong choice.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: You can you can feel sad and also know that you need to have less of of you know them or or whatever you know they are doing in your life to feel okay and comfortable.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes you can love someone but not be able to be with them because of how they are with you.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or you choose to be with them in a very particular kind of way.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you either make this clear or you don't.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about ninja boundaries, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: And some relationships you kind of have to you have to finangle a little bit without necessarily having these direct conversations about boundaries because it's not really safe.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I mean, when so okay, when when do you think w you would go no contact then?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think from my experience professionally, people choose to go no contact um when the person that they are trying to do structured or low contact keeps pushing in.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And trying to keep you know, if they keep calling excessively when the adult child is like not responding.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or when there's really intrusions upon boundary violations, repeated boundaries.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or if there's like um a child involved and the child has been put into unsafe or uncomfortable situations, like extreme boundary violations or real extreme disrespect.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then the abuse, the manipulation, all that, all the all of that really traumatic stuff if it's still occurring.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it makes sense to go no contact, even maybe from the beginning without trying low contact or or or you know, whatever structured contact.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think some helpful, you know, when you're trying to decide, you know, what you may want to do.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: No contact versus limited versus low, whatever.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's helpful to ask, is this dynamic unsafe?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it just simply conflictual?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: You may make a different decision based on the answer to that question.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, can your parent take accountability?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh can they, once a boundary has been communicated, can they abide by it?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes it can be really hard for us adult children to set boundaries with our parents, but it's really somewhat unfair if we have a boundary about something related to our kids or something related to us, and that wasn't explicitly communicated.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: That that can be, yeah, that that one's a little tricky because in some situations it's not safe to communicate in general, right?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then so for some of us, uh we we kind of go right a little bit more of the stealthy boundary way.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but in general, I think it is much healthier and much more encouraged and right, right, and helpful if you're able to say, Hey, so and so, I don't I don't this makes me feel uncomfortable and I I'm not gonna stay on the phone if you keep talking about whatever.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, and then they know you're they they know how you feel, and and hopefully they respect the boundary.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: If not, over time you may go low contact, limited contact.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: In general, you may not feel even safe enough to say that, and so you then just decide to go low contact or no contact or whatever, you know.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's just um, but it'd be it's awesome to be able to communicate that first, and then you give the parent the you know the the agency to and the chance to change the behavior.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like we talked about in our boundaries episode, boundaries are not a way to um keep people away from us, um, but it's a way to show people how to be with us.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a roadmap, it's not supposed to be a automatic barrier.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just it's hard for s I do think, you know, I I g I suppose in doing this episode the the research suggests that you know may parents more often of the time sort of interpret the boundary as a punishment.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it can feel that way.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: It can feel that way, and I've I have certainly not with not necessarily with my parents, but in other relationships have had people set boundaries and it has felt very personal.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I do think it can be challenging for people to not take boundaries setting personally, you know, at times.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I I can kinda get it, but you know, it is something then to work on so that you can accept someone's boundary and yeah, and again, it's i I can see that it's hard not to take that in personal and like that they somehow like rejecting.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course, yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: But the or it does the intention is connection.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right, yes, exactly.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, when when we're talking about no contact, low contact, then when is reconciliation possible?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well yeah, and this was encouraging.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um because it is, it's possible.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is possible.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, like you mentioned at the top of the episode, it might be a temporary like we need space for a while.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, it could be a temporary separation, and then you kind of can figure out what you need to do or say or but I think some key elements involve um accountability, like ownership, and then this doesn't have to be automatically all on the parent side.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was gonna say there's yeah, accountability on both sides.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because it is challenging for people to accept boundaries and it can change relationship dynamics.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so a parent may have some hard feelings about some things that are perfectly valid, that are understandable, that are understandable, right?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: We can understand differences and still work together to try to find something that works for both parties if possible.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so accountability is a huge one.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Accountability, yeah.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think slowly rebuilding trust is another one.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, um, basically not diving in.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily let's go back to the way we were, but let's more so let's rebuild this relationship together in a way that feels comfortable for both of us.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just help I I you know, I I I imagine just in just thinking broadly that it is challenging for parents to sort of let their kids evolve and grow and differentiate and especially when they disagree with them.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Especially when they disagree, you know.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: So this is it is challenging, but you know, adult children and parents, their relationship shifts and morphs over time.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it's you know, the research shows really needs to become much more mutual.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: And we kind of like decide together, not necessarily necessarily through a ton of direct conversation, but how we're gonna be together, both as adults.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's where if there's a reconciliation and there's a real there was a real no contact, it can be helpful to actually really clearly state boundaries.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely, I mean, definitely, sure.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: As clear as we can be.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you're looking at like what are some of the healthy components of a healthy adult child and parent parental relationship, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: It would be mutual respect for boundaries.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um mutual awareness of um like mutual communication around that, you know.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: So if you know, if you if you do not feel as though those things are possible in your relationships with family members, then you may have to stay low contact, limited contact, no contact.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and and maybe reconciliation is not possible.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I definitely think it's really tricky and nuanced.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um I do think that I've I've had professional experiences where when a child chooses to disconnect, it really is.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it's very distressing for the adult um parent.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it sort of is a jarring experience where they are when a reconciliation becomes a possibility.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: But in the from my experience, there has been some like openness to good being aware.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't had this crop up quite as much in my own practice.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting that you're seeing a lot of it right now in yours.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: This has not been something that my patients have been talking as much about.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought it was it's interesting to think about.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think you know, having that mutual respect um and recognizing like another key ingredient that I would make sure and add to the list of like what's a healthy part of that relational dynamic is not all disagreements or points of contention have to turn into invalidation.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: But you can just disagree on it on a feature, a a fact or uh an experience and it doesn't have to become an invalidating event or an invalidating comment.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think that's just a skill, right?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: That hopefully we learn over time about conflict resolution is to be able to hold your own experience with another person's experience right at the same time.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's it's an incredibly hard it's that's very hard.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it is necessary to r to repair.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one really repair I was really thinking about in light of this episode is it's it's interesting.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: In the social landscape, my perception is, and I my perception might not be anyone else's parents rarely receive pushback when they quote cut off a child for religious reasons, for uh maybe for sexual orientation reasons, for a variety of reasons.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: But there seems to be a lot of pushback when a child, an adult child, chooses to go no contact.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's interesting to me, and that feels a little unfair.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's still that like, you know, it's like, oh you know, Mr.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: and Mrs.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So-and-so cut off Johnny, and you know, that's just the way it is.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: But if Johnny chooses to disconnect from them, it's like, oh, how could he abandon his mother this way?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's so that's still the narrative, which is more of a classic narrative in my mind, versus Johnny's mother must have been really not listening or respecting really invalid.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: It must have been a hard relationship, right?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right, it must have been a hard relationship, yeah.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, um it's really, really hard when you are a parent.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Every single day that you're a parent, your child is growing uh uh older and and bigger and and more independent.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: More differentiated from you.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: More differentiated from you.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And they need you in less ways and different ways across the development.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: We've covered child we've covered child and adolescent development.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: We still have some developmental categories categories to cover, but I think really understanding the relationship is gonna change, and you cannot comment the way you would a 15-year-old that you would a 25-year-old is a really can be a really hard adjustment.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I could I could definitely see that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Especially if your child is doing something that you feel like is You don't agree with, it's not a it's not your value, it's not a family value, maybe.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So what are you taking away from this um no contact, parent parental alienation?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I just think it was it was I had never really thought about it as intentionally, so now I feel like I'm gonna have my antennas up, like in my own private practice, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: I just I don't know if it's that people are not doing it or talking about it, or if I just wasn't necessarily aware right.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I would assume in your trauma work that there's a lot more people that engage in structured or low contact and it's just not named and labeled.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we just don't talk about it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually think this is really helpful to think about it that way and also to help my patients make this decision.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right, as they're thinking about relationships with their family members.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um just people and honestly, this can this framework can work for all relationships.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Really.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I just think it's a helpful little framework.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think it it's helpful for me personally and professionally.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um I definitely was raised by parents that uh in the relationship with them my behavior mattered regardless of our genetic relationship.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that if I was in a way that was acting like unkind or really m like really just hurtful to them, I don't think they'd have the same relationship with me now that they do.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I were being a real real big jerk and really just invalidating or disrespectful or whatever, I don't think my my personal parents would not wouldn't want me to hang out as much.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Personal parents.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my parents, personally, you know what I'm saying?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: My personal parents, they are my personal parents.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: My personal parents.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's uh they use the same, you know, you like to do that.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: You've been person, personal parents.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: But but I think um regardless of your decision um to go low, no, or structured contact or emotional distance.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: This such this is such a nuanced and delicate topic.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that you can like think about and consider.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just because you're biologically related to someone does not mean you have to actually have them in your life.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you get to decide how much.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: You get to decide.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we hope today's episode has been uh thought-provoking and stimulating for you.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental health treatment.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we work in or have worked for in the past.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if listening to this podcast has made you think, we really encourage you to seek out a mental health professional in your area.