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The Ridiculous Origin of the the Word "Ridiculous" · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, Myth,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the Legend. Our super producer Max Fabio Williams.
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  Speaker 2: Fellows actually have my hair down right now.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, dude, don't tell hr. It sounds like I'm
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: the Sopranos referring to a sex worker.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I got to rock the twenty four inches
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: of hair that I'm coming right now.
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  Speaker 1: And for a good cause maybe because if you get
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  Speaker 1: tired of it, we know you, well, you are the
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: kind of person to donate to you something like Locks
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: of Love.
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  Speaker 2: That's the plan that's been for about three years now.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: No, you said you found another organization that you prefer.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Uh yeah, it's what is the name of it. It's
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: like it's it's like wigs for kids. I think the
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  Speaker 3: name of that. If that's not the name, then I
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: you know, I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: The same thing that always bend to donate the hair.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Because it was like COVID was coming around and it
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  Speaker 2: was like ten inches long. I was like, oh, let's
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: keep throwing it. And then the cove.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: It's a commodity. It looks good. You grew it yourself. Then.
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  Speaker 2: Also, like you know, it's been like what four or
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  Speaker 2: five years since that point, So.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, about four or five hundred degrees here in Atlanta,
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  Speaker 3: only just now starting to turn to the proper fall
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: fall half fallen, y'all, and I'm here for it.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, we are a tumnial and I've been bullen. That
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  Speaker 1: is Noel Brown. And here at the end of summer
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  Speaker 1: we are heading into autumn and our fair metropolis of
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  Speaker 1: Atlanta metro area. We thought we'd celebrate with a pretty
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  Speaker 1: weird idea and all something kind of meta that's been
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  Speaker 1: on our minds because you know, over the years, you
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  Speaker 1: and I have explored all sorts of bizarre people, places
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  Speaker 1: and events throughout history, and I think it's fair to
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  Speaker 1: say that our north star has always been what makes
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  Speaker 1: this specifically ridiculous?
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  Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, for better or worse, sometimes more than others.
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  Speaker 3: But we do try to not you know, do a
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  Speaker 3: story that's just purely a bummer. They try to have
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  Speaker 3: some sort of ridiculous lift in there somewhere, but it's true.
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  Speaker 3: And you know, Bet I never you know that both
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  Speaker 3: of us are fans of etymology, and we're always wondering
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  Speaker 3: where words came from. But I just I've just always
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  Speaker 3: accepted ridiculous for its own merits. It never even occurred
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  Speaker 3: to me to ask the question, where does the word
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  Speaker 3: ridiculous come from? I'm not sure if that says more
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  Speaker 3: about me or more of about the power of the word.
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  Speaker 3: M Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Despite almost eight years of creating new episodes a week,
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  Speaker 1: which puts us around eight hundred and thirty two episodes
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  Speaker 1: this October, folks, Yeah, despite diving into almost every imaginable
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  Speaker 1: angle of ridiculous things, we have never asked about the
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  Speaker 1: word itself, which is itsself ridiculous that we didn't ask?
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  Speaker 1: So what is this word? Where does the word come from?
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  Speaker 1: Today we're solving the mystery.
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  Speaker 3: We're over the moon.
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  Speaker 1: To have you a board with us.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, I'm gonna put forth that it has something to
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  Speaker 3: do with something that is worthy of ridicule. Maybe, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I don't know. Let's get into it. Let's get into it.
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  Speaker 3: Let's get into it. It's not that hard actually, as
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  Speaker 3: it turns out, to define words. It's a pretty common
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  Speaker 3: word in English, unlike words like what is this sesqua pedallion?
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  Speaker 3: That's okay. This is a new one on me. Um, yeah, Ben,
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  Speaker 3: give give it to us.
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  Speaker 1: What is sesqua padallion? It technically means two things. It
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  Speaker 1: means a foot and a half long, and it means
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  Speaker 1: a person who loves using long words to just or
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  Speaker 1: to describe long words themselves. And so, to be clear,
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  Speaker 1: that second meaning is almost always used as an insult,
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  Speaker 1: dissing people who engage with overly verbose language. And you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's kind of self defeating, right, The irony is not
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  Speaker 1: lost on either of us there.
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  Speaker 3: I think you're sort of like pot calling the kettle
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  Speaker 3: black there a little bit. If that expression is still allowed,
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  Speaker 3: I think it is. Yeah, Yeah, it's weird.
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  Speaker 1: It's a pyrrhic victory to criticize someone for being wordy
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  Speaker 1: by using one of the nerdiest dang words in the
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  Speaker 1: English language.
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  Speaker 3: I think people would literally drop dead of eyrol if
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  Speaker 3: someone were to use this like out loud in the
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  Speaker 3: context of like a diss. I just don't think I
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  Speaker 3: could handle it personally.
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  Speaker 1: I've only heard it deployed in common conversations when I
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  Speaker 1: was in the Ivory Tower of Academia.
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  Speaker 3: And there it was a burner. There was a banger,
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  Speaker 3: sick ber mic drops bidallion.
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  Speaker 1: Right, the conference is over. Everybody steal as many sandwiches
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  Speaker 1: as you can all the way out.
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  Speaker 3: But there are academic sandwiches are the worst though. Man,
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  Speaker 3: they're those tiny little ones. I had the concept of
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  Speaker 3: finger foods. It always gives me the mill like it.
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  Speaker 1: I still don't understand, you know, the concept of high
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  Speaker 1: t cucumber sandwiches. We'll get into some of that when
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  Speaker 1: we talk about the Kentucky Derby and the Masters and
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  Speaker 1: their sandwiches. But what we're saying here, folks, is out
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  Speaker 1: of all the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of words
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  Speaker 1: in the English language, no one sure how many there
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  Speaker 1: are by the way, ridiculous, it doesn't really stand out.
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  Speaker 1: And that's why folks like Noel and Max and myself
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  Speaker 1: are never really questioning it. As you said, we're sort
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  Speaker 1: of accepting it. It is not the most common word
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  Speaker 1: in the English like whiche. Can you guess what the
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  Speaker 1: most common word in the English language is.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not picking up what you you heard this, it's
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  Speaker 3: the T, not like thhe.
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  Speaker 1: So let's get to it. And what does ridiculous mean today?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think we all know that it typically refers
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  Speaker 3: to something that is extremely silly or potentially even unreasonable.
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  Speaker 3: You know, you can say, man, you look ridiculous talking
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  Speaker 3: about someone's outfit being a little outlandish, or you could
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  Speaker 3: say you're being ridiculous, meaning that you're being obstinate, or
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  Speaker 3: you're not giving an inch, or you're like really digging
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  Speaker 3: in on something that you absolutely should not be doing.
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  Speaker 3: Cambridge describes it as stupid or unreasonable, and ding ding
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  Speaker 3: ding deserving to be laughed at, worthy of ridicule. Ouch,
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  Speaker 3: not nice, Cambridge. They've got some acerbic wits over there
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  Speaker 3: at Cambridge.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess someone was having rough day at the
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  Speaker 1: dictionary factory when they wrote that. When I mean, if
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  Speaker 1: we want to convey that meaning, we are not limited
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  Speaker 1: to the R word. You can also use synonyms like absurd, cock.
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  Speaker 3: Eyed, idiotic, laugh. Kaka maimi.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, kaka maimi is of course the favorite. Uh And that's.
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  Speaker 3: That's what I put a link to as well, because
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  Speaker 3: it's just such a weird word. I wish we could
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  Speaker 3: do our own show all.
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  Speaker 1: About ridiculous words or ridiculous etymology.
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  Speaker 3: Ben. You know, I don't think I've ever seen kaka
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  Speaker 3: mamie in print before. I had a really outlandish kaka
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  Speaker 3: mami spelling of it in mind, but it's actually a
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  Speaker 3: little bit more. No, wait a minute, there is an
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  Speaker 3: alternate spelling, though apparently less common, which is more what
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  Speaker 3: I had in mind, c O C K A M
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  Speaker 3: A M y, though the more proper spelling would be
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  Speaker 3: co O C K A M A I e uh.
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  Speaker 3: And of course again, you know, stand in for ridiculous,
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  Speaker 3: something that is worthy of ridicule. Even the word ridiculous
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  Speaker 3: is in the Webster description for kakamamie. Incredible is another
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  Speaker 3: one that I've always found interesting, sort of like awesome.
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  Speaker 3: If you say something's incredible, that can mean you're really
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  Speaker 3: impressed by it, but it can also mean it's kind
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  Speaker 3: of someone maybe telling a whopper, you.
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  Speaker 1: Know, yeah, without credibility.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 1: So this shows us throughout the evolution of English, it
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  Speaker 1: shows us one thing, all of the daddy languages that
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  Speaker 1: led to English, all it shows us is that for
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  Speaker 1: a long time, for the course of human history, people
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  Speaker 1: have been talking trash. And this gets us to the
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  Speaker 1: evolution of that specific word ridiculous. It's time for I'm
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  Speaker 1: doing a drum roll in less Mexic gets a better sound.
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  Speaker 3: Etymology, Yeah, etymology indeed, not to be confused with atemama,
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  Speaker 3: which is a delicious snack. Ridiculous is a surprisingly old word,
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  Speaker 3: and it used to be damn near fighting word right,
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  Speaker 3: way more mean than anyone would ever use it as today,
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  Speaker 3: again more attacking somebody's credibility. It's first documented all the
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  Speaker 3: way back in the fifteen hundreds.
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  Speaker 1: The Oxford English Dictionary's earliest evidence for ridiculous in print
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  Speaker 1: is from fifteen thirty three. It's found in the writing
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  Speaker 1: of a guy named Thomas Elliott, not spelled the way
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  Speaker 1: you think, a humanist and a diplomat. His last name
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  Speaker 1: is often spelled Elyot or Elyott. But I think we
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  Speaker 1: should take a second to shout this guy out. Most
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  Speaker 1: people probably haven't heard of Tommy, but he is one
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  Speaker 1: of the main reasons fiction books you read today are
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  Speaker 1: in English instead of Latin.
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  Speaker 3: You knew, isn't that weird? We didn't. It is weird.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't know one person could have that much influence.
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  Speaker 3: He is one of the very first people who said, hey,
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  Speaker 3: let's perhaps write English literature English, since that's what so
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  Speaker 3: many regular people were speaking in those days. So it
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  Speaker 3: might sound like a little tiny historical footnote, which kind
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  Speaker 3: of is. But again, it's a lot of influence for
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  Speaker 3: one person to be able to change the tide of
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  Speaker 3: language like that. It's tough for us to fully grasp
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  Speaker 3: how incredibly important this person was, and again changing the
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  Speaker 3: way we communicate, the way we consume information.
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  Speaker 4: M M.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it reminds me of how we marveled at the
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  Speaker 1: invention of containers way back in antiquity. At some point
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  Speaker 1: before the discovery of containers, people just had to live
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  Speaker 1: by the water until somebody, right, until somebody figured out
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  Speaker 1: you could build a thing to hold other stuff.
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  Speaker 3: The humble vessel. It seems like just an idea as
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  Speaker 3: old as time. But yeah, you know, it's funny. It's
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  Speaker 3: one of those basic things where it's sort of like
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  Speaker 3: it implies a newfound understanding of the way matter works. Right,
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  Speaker 3: What if I took this stuff and put other stuff
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  Speaker 3: inside the stuff, and can I find the right stuff
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  Speaker 3: the right stuff? Yeah, let's try different stuffs, see what
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  Speaker 3: works the best. Exactly, this is wild.
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  Speaker 1: So all we're saying is shout out to you, Tommy, Eh,
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  Speaker 1: back to ridiculous.
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  Speaker 3: Fast forward just a few years.
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  Speaker 1: By the time we get to the fifteen forties, it's
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  Speaker 1: spelled ridiculos, r id y c, ridiculous l O U
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  Speaker 1: s E. And that's still pretty mean. It means worthy
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  Speaker 1: of ridicule or huh contemptuous laughter.
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  Speaker 3: Ooh, contemptuous, very mean spirit of perhaps someone in the
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  Speaker 3: in the stockades, worthy of being pilloried, you know, having
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  Speaker 3: tomatoes and stuff thrown at them. The implication would be
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  Speaker 3: imparting a sense of vast inferiority, an idiot, a loser,
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  Speaker 3: an absolute buffoon, someone who is beneath you. It is
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  Speaker 3: an absolute character asassination. To use this in those days, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: it's calling.
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  Speaker 1: Calling someone ridiculous means you are, you are massively lesser.
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  Speaker 1: You are for the birds, you were straight up a
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  Speaker 1: grade dumb.
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  Speaker 3: Not to be taken seriously.
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  Speaker 1: And when we get to English, like so many words,
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  Speaker 1: we learned that the English use of ridiculous comes from
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  Speaker 1: Latin ridict culus, which means laughable, funny, or absurd, and
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  Speaker 1: that comes from madeira, which just means to laugh.
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  Speaker 3: Can I just say, but I applaud you for your
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  Speaker 3: use of the phrase daddy words. I just the child
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  Speaker 3: in me giggles every time a little bit, but it
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  Speaker 3: absolutely is a fantastic descriptor. So we're gonna talk about
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  Speaker 3: some daddy words.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also shout out to past us when when
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: we fell in love with I still don't recall whether
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: it was a song we seriously worked on or if
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: it was just a game we played, But we had
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: this rap game called Daddy Daddy math. Yeah, we're like,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah, that's daddy blah blah blah blah.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know what it is. It's
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  Speaker 3: a simple math.
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  Speaker 1: We'd never built out the world on that one, but
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  Speaker 1: we can't tell you. Ridire is also the daddy word
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  Speaker 1: of risible, which is confusing. I wish it was used
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  Speaker 1: more often.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know about riseable. By the way, is
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: daddy math maybe the calculation you determine how many bastard
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  Speaker 3: children you have out in the world. There, we're perhaps
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  Speaker 3: like a you know, a despot, historical despot, Djengus or
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  Speaker 3: Nick Canny. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So for centuries, like we're saying, ridiculous was a hard
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  Speaker 1: and righteous dis mockery, as you noted earlier, fighting words.
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  Speaker 1: Throughout the sixteen hundreds, we see a lot of fiction
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  Speaker 1: and nonfiction writers, including Shakespeare, using ridiculous in that sense.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes they spell it different ways, mainly because everybody at
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  Speaker 1: this point was still trying to figure out how stuff
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  Speaker 1: would be spelled. Literacy was a pretty rare skill.
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  Speaker 3: Set, for sure. No, it was a big deal, and
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  Speaker 3: they were kind of spitballing a little bit, you see,
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  Speaker 3: before they land on the one that kind of sticks.
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  Speaker 3: And oftentimes that is determined by someone very powerful who
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  Speaker 3: perhaps you know, codifies the printing of a particular work,
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  Speaker 3: and then then that begins to spread because the more
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  Speaker 3: consistency you have, the more people pick up on and
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  Speaker 3: then the more it's passed around and reprinted, et cetera,
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  Speaker 3: one hundred percent.
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  Speaker 1: And this is where we arrive at the eighteenth century. Ridiculous,
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  Speaker 1: however you spell it, becomes a little bit less of
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  Speaker 1: a mocking fighting word. It's starting to evolve to mean
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  Speaker 1: something that is more funny or haha, not necessarily.
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  Speaker 3: In a mean way.
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  Speaker 1: It's absurd, but it's amusing, it's comical.
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  Speaker 3: I guess what we're talking about here too, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: is the evolution of language where know the word you
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  Speaker 3: could absolutely still use it in any of these ways,
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  Speaker 3: but it begins to really depend on like the emphasis
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  Speaker 3: you put on it when you speak it, the context
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  Speaker 3: around it, you know, what your attitude is towards the word.
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  Speaker 3: So we're kind of we're not even necessarily talking about
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  Speaker 3: the purely the pure evolution of a word. It's just
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  Speaker 3: sort of like it picks up different umamis along.
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  Speaker 1: The way, right, Yeah, well said, well, because what we're
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  Speaker 1: talking about is language as technology, and so we're really
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: talking about the way society evolves in their usage of
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  Speaker 1: a thing. Right, and this is this new this like
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  Speaker 1: coke two of ridiculous, is the uh is the more
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  Speaker 1: friendly version of the word, because it's still traced back
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  Speaker 1: to uh ridicularious meaning concerned with jokes, which we definitely
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  Speaker 1: are on this show.
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  Speaker 3: Was it thirty Rock where there was like a fictional
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  Speaker 3: rapper named Ridiculous who was sort of like like ludicrous
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  Speaker 3: sort of stand in satire and parody.
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  Speaker 1: You know, we were talking off air with Max. I've
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  Speaker 1: been rewatching thirty Rock, which is just phenomenal writing. I
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  Speaker 1: would have to finish watching the run of the show.
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  Speaker 1: But I'm sure you're right, if not in thirty Rock,
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  Speaker 1: in some show, that joke's just too.
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  Speaker 3: Good, it's too good. Yeah, and I having our I don't.
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  Speaker 3: I couldn't possibly know how to spell it ridiculous. It's
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  Speaker 3: I'm spelling it correctly and nothing is coming up. But
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  Speaker 3: it's like comedy joke rapper, ludicris Perry, parody. Maybe yeah,
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  Speaker 3: parody would be good. It doesn't matter. It'll come to
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  Speaker 3: me eventually when I don't care. But I'm almost positive
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  Speaker 3: that it was thirty Rocks.
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  Speaker 1: And we obviously are huge fans of thirty Rock. We
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  Speaker 1: also you know what I love about the point you
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: earlier made is we're also talking now about ridiculous acquiring
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: informal meanings like one thing that can happen if you
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: are dating, especially here in Atlanta. I remember a friend
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  Speaker 1: of mine got kind of mythed when he made a
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  Speaker 1: joke and it landed, and the lady was interested in went, oh,
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  Speaker 1: you're stupid, but she meant that he was funny. She
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  Speaker 1: is stupid funny, right exactly. So, when we see the
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  Speaker 1: same thing happening with slang, and the word ridiculous and
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  Speaker 1: all living languages constantly creates slang, let's go to the
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  Speaker 1: Dictionary of Archaic and Provincial Words by how did I
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  Speaker 1: not know about miss Franzil today. That's incredible, and this exists.
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  Speaker 1: It's multiple editions to man. This is written by James
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  Speaker 1: Orchard halliwell I was first published in eighteen forty six,
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  Speaker 1: but we are using the eighteen fifty two version because
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: per our accounting department, we are not quote made of money.
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  Speaker 3: That's true. It's true. And this is what he had
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  Speaker 3: to say on the subject of the word ridiculous. This
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  Speaker 3: is used in a very different sense in some counties
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  Speaker 3: from its original meaning. Something very indecent and improper is
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  Speaker 3: understood by it as any violent attack upon a woman's
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  Speaker 3: chastity is called wow, very ridiculous behavior. A very disorderly
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  Speaker 3: and ill conducted house is also called a ridiculous one.
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  Speaker 3: So in this situation, it's really starting to get like
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  Speaker 3: honed in, almost on the level of like a legal designation.
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  Speaker 3: Right it's really like hard in terms of its its
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  Speaker 3: judgment call.
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  Speaker 1: Especially because to us right now, ridiculous means funny, interesting
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  Speaker 1: and cool, silly goofy, you silly goose. But right right now,
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  Speaker 1: I think we'd all be more insulted if someone came
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  Speaker 1: to our homes and called them ill conducted. I don't
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  Speaker 1: know why that would steing me more if someone said.
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  Speaker 3: I would be impressed if they whipped out that Turner phrase,
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  Speaker 3: And you're right, it probably would cut me to my
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  Speaker 3: very core.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like they thought about it, right, So
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: we also see to your point, more than a little
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: discrimination comes into play with this slang as well. In
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: the twentieth century, in the United States, ridiculous was described
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: as a synonym for outrageous, and the people who described
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: it as such always wanted to point out this is
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: primarily used in Gullah speech and quote among poor whites
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: in Ozarks.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: Yeikes. Yeah, man, It's another one of the things moment
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: where you realize that any form of a word that
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: describes something being stupid or ill conceived or outrageous, it
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: has a basis in othering. It has a basis and
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: this is something that is different than me that freaks
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: me out, you know, And it's a way of demonizing
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: a perceived other and the way they talk, the way
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: they dress. It's still used today, you know, it's I mean,
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: it really all just boils down to this idea of
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: something being worthy of ridicule. What what worst designation could
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: you slap on something than being worthy of jeers and
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: insults and derision.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Agreed fully, and any word can be weaponized, at least
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: in English. For instance, think of innocuous words like urban
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: and think about how keeevily that was deployed, especially in
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: the advent of the War on drugs, or dog.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: Whistles for racist not not. Let's not get too far
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: into this, but then you've got words like that that
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: you know, initially are sort of benign, and they start
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: referring to certain demographics in certain areas. We even see
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: it in the categorization of like music, you know, and
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: that's an official term used in like radio circles and charts, right,
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: like music charts, those examples. Where is that taking the
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: word back or is that another example of an establishment
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: referring to something with a little bit of a side eye?
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is where we get to the serious
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: side of ridiculousness. We've established our origin story and we've
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: got some other words that sort of fill out the
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: background of our painting. We've walked through what we hope
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: is some tasty etymology for our fellow logophiles word nerds,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: oh my god. But before not not fans of the not,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: fans of logs, not fans of logs. That's a different
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: read election. But before we light out for the old
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: podcast territories, we do want to establish some serious value
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: of ridiculousness as a concept in the ancient past and
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: in the modern day. Here we have a second Tommy
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: entering the stage. Please, folks, holt your accolades and laws.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: This is a tom you have probably heard of none
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: other than Thomas Hobbes.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Think that the imaginary Tiger and Calvin and Hobbes is
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: named after Thomas Hobbs. It's spelled the same That just
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: occourats me seeing it on paper.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: First off, I have chosen to believe he is very
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: much a real type.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: Oh fair enough, excuse me the spoiler.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: But I also I believe you are absolutely correct there,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: especially when you see written out right. The legendary English
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: philosopher Thomas Hobbes is probably to most of us best
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: known for an absolute banger he wrote in sixteen fifty
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: one called Leviathan. He first kicks the idea of what
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: we call social contract theory.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: So it's a nice idea. Yeah, it's a nice idea.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, isn't the social sorry not a d re
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: but is given what's going on in the world. Now,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: isn't the social contract kind of reliant on people just
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: agreeing to follow certain rules and like, in order for
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: the privilege of living in society, you have to kind
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: of give up a little bit of into individuality in
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: favor of, like, you know, getting along. We all sort
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: of abide by these rules that are mutually agreed upon
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: and beneficial.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you nailed it, man. Social contract theory is the
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: idea that you, as an individual human, either explicitly or
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: simply by existing in society, you have agreed to abide
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: by rules of that society, to have certain responsibilities in
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: exchange for protection and maintenance of social order. We know
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: that this goes in a thousand directions, but the idea
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: at base is that it takes everyone to make a
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: society work. We're not a philosophy podcast yet, but we
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: do have to give you one more fun fact about
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Tommy h He spent a lot of time ruminating over
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: the concept of humor, and to him, the nature of
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: ridiculousness and absurd is central to the theory of Beaty.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Here Max, what makes funny? So encountering the ridiculous triggers laughter, shock, parody, satire.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Also Hobbes, by the way, super duper hater.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, man, he had some He had some hot takes,
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: that's for sure. Definitely, Uh thought very highly of himself. Oh, okay,
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: we'll do We'll do one quote from Leviathan. I think
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: we must. It'll give you a good sense of this
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: guy's Yeah, penchant for for Hobbs. Yeah maybe, all right.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: So true, for such is the nature of man that,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: howsoever they may acknowledge many others to be more witty,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: or more eloquent, or more learned, yet they will hardly
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: believe there be many. So wise it's themselves, for they
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: see their own wit at hand and other men's at
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: a distance.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, he's not wrong. I'm not even really trying
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: to be a hater of the hater. I think he
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: was just he's pretty dialed in. That's not incorrect. It's
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: this idea that everyone's sort of the main character in
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: their own story, right, and that everyone else sort of
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: exists as side players, and that at the end of
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: the day, you're more concerned with your own bit and
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: coming across a certain way than you are and listening
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: to what other people have to say or acknowledging their existency.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Excellent unpacking there.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you see your own you marvel at your own
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: intelligence or your own winds, and other people they're at
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: an arms.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: Linked at best. Someone else also said, hell as other people.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: So those could you know? Pair those together and you
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: got yourself a full on philosophy of life.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Tom puts some stank on that one. Also,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: he was a proponent of absolute monarchy, and his arguments
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: for that are ridiculous.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: So Tom, we hope you were joking.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: I don't even bring it back to ridiculous though, Well,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: later on, much much much later on, after the rise
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: of the science we call psychology, it turns out scientists
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: would verify Hobbes's pitch about ridiculous, right.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, he's clearly lampooning most of society and considers
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: humans to be inherently quite ridiculous. This is a very
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: important word in helping to draw attention to social hierarchies
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: and attitudes of the time. By this, we mean the
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: absurd is able to kind of subvert in a way.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: He was also I don't know, it's hard to how
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: would you describe his work? I mean it's a treatise, right,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: He's basically telling he's calling attention to the absurdities of
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: society in an effort to perhaps teach people how to
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: live better. Right, there could be a better way. But
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: it also is satirical in a way. It's an interesting
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: kind of cross section there. Yeah.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's kind of a Josh Johnson to it, or
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: a George Carlin esque thing. You know, these are great
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: or Bill Hicks, these are great orators who will who
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: understand the power of laughter along the way. And this
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: is an old idea. It's I love that you're talking
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: about absurdism, subverting social norms. That's why a jester can
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: talk trash so loudly at the king and say all
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: these things. An ordinary peasant would be tortured for muttering
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: under their breath.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: The idea of a roast, You know, people love a
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: roast as long as it's there, kind of in control,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: and it is all sort of like it in the
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: service of this kind of holding court kind of situation. Right.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: I genuinely enjoy a lot of roast, except for the
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: one of Chevy Chase that was I don't think they
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: were being funny.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: I know they was being mean. Isn't that guy a
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: real Dick, though I've heard like not great things about it.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: I didn't see the roast though, but I imagine there
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: was a lot of people just unloading on a guy
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: who maybe deserved it a little more than the average
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: roast roasty.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently very difficult to work with, and we hope
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: that we're easy to work.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: With so that we don't pick up with chevies. Yeah.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: So, the thing about stuff being ridiculous or absurd is
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: that it reframes the way you perceive a given experience
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: in small yet measurable ways. It also reframes every other
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: thing you encountered before or after. You look at the
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: world differently, you pay more attention, and we see this
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: everywhere politics, fiction, personal relationships, advertising. Look, we have background
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: in live performance, and as any live performer can tell you,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: the number one easiest emotional reaction to get from an
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: audience is laughter.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: Right, would you agree with that? I think so. It's
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: definitely easier than eliciting a gasp, unless you're just going
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: for shock value. But it's also the I think it's
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: the easiest and most pleasant reaction that an audience might
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: want to have elicited from them. You know what I mean?
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: People have to laugh. It's a psychologically cleansing sort of experience.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, especially when you're laughing together, when you're not asking
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: for much, right, just the shared acknowledgement that this thing
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: is funny or ridiculous.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Dude, speaking of ridiculous and laughter, have you seen the
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: New Naked Gun movie yet? Not yet. No, I've been
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: deep in research land. It is a laugh a second.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: It's just so densely packed and that we'll we'll pull
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: those out of you. So I highly recommend him looking
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: for a cathartic experience in that respect, go check out
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: the New Naked Gun Movie. I'm so excited. I'm so
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: excited to see it.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: And you know, I've got a little bit of limited
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: mobility right now, but as soon as i'm as soon
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: as I'm back on my proper land lover's status, dude,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: I'm getting to the movie theater to check it out.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: And we're huge fans of the earlier Naked Gun stuff
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: as well, although to be clear, not all of it
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: aged well. Which happens a comedy, Yeah, I mean O
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Jay Simpson's in the first two. I think it's really funny,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: though he's very I gotta give it to guy's very funny,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: but he definitely murdered those people. Yeah, once you get
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: someone to chuckle with you, psychologically you built this foundational bond,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: even if it's only for a limited amount of time.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: And from that bond you could say laughters like a
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: mental passwords like hacking a computer. You can do a
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: lot of other stuff. Not all of that stuff is
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: necessarily above board. And that takes us back to advertising.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Ooh man, advertising and laughter for sure.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, I mean we're starting to see the
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: pivot into ridiculous of the idea of worthy of ridicules
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: starting to feel more like positive laughter, something that's done
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: to illicit laughter, like the gesture you're talking about, Ben,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: rather than someone that is a buffoon worthy of mockery
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: and contempt.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like the old stand up rule punching up
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: versus punching down.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: Right. Really yeah, Advertising, though, is a great transition, Ben,
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: where we start to see the kind of weaponizing of
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: some of this thinking. It is, of course a particularly
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: manipulative branch of psychology unto itself, leveraging a lot of conditioning,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: but you know, behavioral cognitive effects in order to elicit
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: a certain reaction to help encode memories, you know, into
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: the viewer and to help impart a positive impression of
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: a particular brand, product or concepts. Yeah, think about it.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Your favorite commercials, especially if you're from the West, are
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: properly comedic. They likely incorporate a buzz term, a jingle
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: or both. And the serious commercials we remember, like the
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: famous PSAs let's play what here is? Here is an
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: example of a serious PSA, which we're counting as a
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: commercial for this purpose. You may all recognize this one, folks.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: Is there anyone out there who still isn't clear about
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: what doing drugs does? Okay, last time, this is your brain,
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: This is drugs. This is your brain on.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: Drugs, eggs. Oh no, sorry, that was the wrong message.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: It was supposed to be. Okay, brain drugs will crack
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: open my brains and fry them in a pan, right, right?
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: And you remember this one, right of course? Yes, And
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: there is some absurdity to it. It is also just
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: sort of like very heavy handed metaphor. I guess as well.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, you nailed it, because despite the
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: initial intent of the people who made that or made
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: those copyright PSAs, like you wouldn't download a car I
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: would if I could, right exactly in this academy get
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: back to us. But they meant these things to be
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: serious and to stay with you. However, a lot of
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: the audience only remembers them because we find them ironic
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: and funny. We laugh when we recall them because we
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: find them accidentally ridiculous. It kind of reminds me of
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: you know, not too long ago. I think, just just
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: like a few days ago, you and I literally saying
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: the Mele mixed jingle on our sister show stuff.
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: They don't want you to know. Somehow he didn't get
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: soon knock on wood. It is funny though, right, I
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: mean the way those little things like they eat more
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: chicken campaign is another good example with chick files of
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: not only is it absurd this idea that an anthropomorphic
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: cow is trying to deflect us from eating its flesh
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: and the flesh of its breath in favor of instead
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: eating it's these other animals that presumably the cows have
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: some sort of vendetto with it's implied, but not only that,
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: it incorporates the concept of disfluency into the ad campaigns,
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: where it's the text that's all splattery and misspelled words,
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: and that encodes itself onto your brain even more so.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: It's like piggybacking on that absurdity with these elaborate billboards,
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: with these like three dimensional cow sculptures, and then the
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: fact that when you're driving past it you see these
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: kind of misspelled words, which forces you to think a
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: little deeper.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you're paying more attention because you're replying cognitively
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: to absurdity. The concept of ridiculous gets in our heads.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: The meal Mixed jingle solidified the memory, and so even
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: if we didn't each personally run out to buy meal
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: mix right after recording, we now have a shared fond
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: memory of It's It's a brilliant idea again, it's ridiculous.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: English is a phenomenally fastating language chock full of words
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: that are themselves ridiculous, by which I guess we would mean
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: cartoonishly specific, oddly, self contradictory, or even just the kind
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: of word where you look back on it later and think.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Well, why would someone make that? What?
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: What on earth happened in society that we need a
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: whole word defining this?
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Yeah? I don't, I mean,
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know it's a good question, then, so.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: We we can play a game for the very end
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: of this. I know, I dug up a book that
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: I know you will love if you haven't read it already.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: It's we love specific reference works. This is depraved and
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: insulting English.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: God. Yes, what was the other reference book or the
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: old tone that you pulled up a source?
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is the diction words archaic and
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: provincial words.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: It does seem like a good pairing. I'm down, sign
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: me up. All right, how about this? Well, we're going
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: to do the live. We don't know if it will
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: work out. So Paul G.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Stomacks in advance. No, I'm going to flip through this
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: book and you say when okay? All right, going when okay?
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: Uh?
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: And then I'm gonna run my finger up and down
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: the page. You say, when okay, Rick Rubin, when okay?
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Cock o Kalia the state of being.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: Guess Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah C A c O c
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: A L l I A C A c O. Initially,
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: my mind is is jumping to the word cow, and
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: this is like if it's a calia. I don't know
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: what that suffix is, but it sounds maybe a little
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: bit like Aphelia or this is not a phobia. You're
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: into something. You're into whatever Coco represents. That's my guess,
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: and I think it might be cow Is. Well, this
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: was a very unfair one.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: I I don't think either of us would have would
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: have guessed this one. The definition is the state of
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: being ugly but sexy. What that? Hell?
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my god, I'm writing this down, CaCO Kalia,
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: that is my I'm gonna use that as my mantra
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: from now on. You're not You're the opposite of ugly.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: You have some devil you no, no, but that's cool.
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: So it's like, you know, uh, what's his name, the
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: horrible painter who also acts Adrian Brody. What a weird
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: way to describe that. He's a funny looking dude there.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: I think this term is very interesting. There are a
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: lot of what you might call striking individuals who you
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: could argue you are ugly but sexy. I think it's
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: not a disc man.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: I'm into it. I think uh, I think I think
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: I agree with it. Except for you and de Niro.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go to the bat for you guys.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: Craggy looking dudes, weathered, he looks weathered because.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Of his age. We are your ever faithful ugly at
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Sexy Correspondence. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: so much as always for tuning in. Thanks to our
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: super producer mister Max Williams as well as Alex Williams
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: who composed this track.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: Huge thanks to Chris Frossiotis and need to Jeffcoats here
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: in Spirit, Jonathan Stricklan the quist Or, A J. Bahamas
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: Jacobs the Puzzler.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: Big big thanks of course to doctor Rachel Big Spinach Lance,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Big thanks to East Jeffcoat Christopher Hasiotis here in Spirit,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: and big thanks to Peter Novobotsky and Amanhea who wrote
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: Deprived and Insulting English Kill.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows