Latest / Question Everything / Special Election-Eve Episode: The Story of a Story Untold

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Special Election-Eve Episode: The Story of a Story Untold · Question Everything

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. As you may know, our show usually comes
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: out every other Thursday, and today is not Thursday. It's
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Monday night, hours before Election Day. And I'm here because,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: like many of us, I bet, I'm feeling on edge,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: and my thoughts keep returning to someone in particular. In
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: the last few weeks as this day has approached, there's
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: been one person who's been on my mind a lot,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: one person I wanted to talk to more than anyone.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: This woman who I believed, hoped at least, could have
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: helped me do something to counter what I think is
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the biggest threat our country faces right now, the Republican
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Party's growing operation to overthrow the results of elections they
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: don't like and seize power regardless of the vote. I
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: maybe idealistically, but honestly, thought this woman held the power
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: to expose people involved in that effort and hold them accountable,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: and also potentially to reach voters who believe the 2020
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: election was stolen from Donald Trump and convince them that
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: isn't true. My story about this woman was supposed to
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: run before this election, but ultimately I couldn't pull it off.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I never ended up making it. And now, hours before
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: election day, it's all I can think about. Tonight, on
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: the eve of the presidential election, some ruminations on a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: story that never was, and a late-night conversation with the
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: source I was supposed to make it about. I'm recording, okay?
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: I am too.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: I assumed we both were.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: From KCRW and Placement Theory, this is Question Everything. I'm
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Brian Reed. Stick around. About a year and a half ago,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I got a tip from a TV writer who DM'd
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: me cold on Twitter. She wanted me to talk to
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  Speaker 1: this woman she'd gotten to know from Arizona named Stacey Burke.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Stacey was 48 years old, a former school board president
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: who was in law school when I met her, a
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  Speaker 1: mom and a grandma. Stacey had been involved in the
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Stop the Steal effort in 2020 and 2021, promoting false
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: claims of election fraud to try and install Donald Trump
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: as president instead of Joe Biden. And Stacey wanted to
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  Speaker 1: now blow the whistle on what she'd been privy to.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: She was like a Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden, but
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: for the world of Stop the Steal. It was pitched
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  Speaker 1: to me as a wild tale, with gunplay in the
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  Speaker 1: desert and armed henchmen and high-level people from D.C. doing
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: twisted things. I wasn't sure about all that, though I
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: was certainly intrigued. But what caught me really when I
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: first spoke to Stacey was this. She no longer believed
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: the 2020 election was stolen. Here was someone who had
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: believed as deeply as anyone I'd ever known that there
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: was a conspiracy to steal the election from Donald Trump.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: So deeply that she devoted months of her life to
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: trying to uncover voter fraud, had been part of a
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: group searching in dumpsters for shredded ballots, had sued Arizona's
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: governor and others to contest the state's election results. And somehow,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: after that, she had emerged on the other side. on
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: the side of reality, seeing the lies about fraud for
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: what they were. If you've been listening to the other
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: episodes of this podcast so far, about Barton Gellman and
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Tangle and even our episode Drinks for Five, you may
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: have noticed that this issue in particular, people believing the
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: lie that our elections are rigged and journalism's ability or
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: not to fight against that, I'm pretty fixated on it.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: My biggest fears this week have to do with Republicans
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: who are using these lies to destabilize our voting process.
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  Speaker 1: Cloud the results. As we saw on January 6th, maybe
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: inspire violence. And in an alternate version of my life,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: what I would have been releasing this fall, instead of
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: this show you're listening to right now, of me crying
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: into my beer about what could have been, was Stacey
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Burke's story. I was imagining it as an in-depth series,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: maybe five or six episodes, that took the listener through
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: what she'd lived through. I had hoped that with Stacey,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: a conservative whose social circles are filled with people who
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: believe the election was stolen, who believed it herself and
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: came to see the truth, who had firsthand knowledge from
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: inside the movement to overturn the election. I could tell
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: a story that would reach people who do doubt our
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: elections in a way I just hadn't seen. I thought
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: hearing a story about Stacey with her own voice could
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: have credibility with that audience. That's what I was hoping
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  Speaker 1: my contribution would be as a journalist before tomorrow's election.
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  Speaker 1: In spite of Stacey's tale sounding torn from the pages
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  Speaker 1: of a political thriller, there was enough about it that
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: had been confirmed to make me try and move forward
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  Speaker 1: with her. I knew, for instance, that at one point,
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  Speaker 1: because Stacey was in possession of what people were claiming
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: was highly sensitive evidence of voter fraud, a group called
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: the First Amendment Praetorian, which according to a congressional report
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: is a paramilitary group that also has guarded retired Lieutenant
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  Speaker 1: General Mike Flynn, offered Stacey round-the-clock armed guards for about
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: seven weeks. This and other elements of her story had
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: been covered and corroborated by reporters at other news organizations,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: Mother Jones, ProPublica, a publication called Raw Story, and by
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: some local Arizona reporters. Also, importantly for a podcast series,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of what happened, Stacey secretly recorded. She had
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: tons of audio. I heard recordings of Stacey talking to
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: an aide in the Trump White House. Stacey talking to
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: General Mike Flynn's brother, Joe. Stacey talking to a former
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: senior NSA official. The New York Times ran a story
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: featuring one of Stacey's recordings where a former aide to
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Trump confidant Roger Stone called on supporters to, quote, descend
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  Speaker 1: on the Capitol on January 6th. Stacey also provided recordings
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: to the Congressional Committee investigating the attack on the Capitol
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: that day. One of the more chilling recordings of Stacey's
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  Speaker 1: I heard demonstrated how precarious and dangerous a situation she
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: was in, having realized the election was not stolen, and
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: having all these recordings. This is a conversation she had
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: with one of her former security guards. It starts off casual.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: Hello. Hey, what's going on?
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  Speaker 2: Nothing much, just cooking a steak. Cooking what? Cooking a steak. Oh,
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  Speaker 2: there you go. Life is good.
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  Speaker 4: Life was really good.
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  Speaker 1: Then Stacy talks about how scared she felt when he
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: and the other armed men were guarding her.
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  Speaker 3: You were telling me I could get killed back then.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: And listen to what he says. Well, you just never know.
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  Speaker 2: It ain't over till it's over, right? No, but I'm
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: saying back, well, yeah, I'm saying back then.
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  Speaker 4: I'm saying now and in the future.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it ain't necessarily over. Shit happens.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think he's saying her life could be
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: at risk if she doesn't watch herself.
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  Speaker 2: You think I'm still going to get killed?
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Don't you think that if I was going to get killed,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: I would have been killed by now?
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  Speaker 3: Sometimes it's inconvenient.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: You know, it just depends on what you do, you know,
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  Speaker 2: what you don't do.
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  Speaker 1: There are so many dramatic moments of Stacey's story like this.
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  Speaker 1: So many questions raised and left unanswered. I spent the
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: better part of a year trying to get Stacey on
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: board for a story, and ultimately I could not convince her.
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  Speaker 1: It was a confusing process because she seemed to want
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: to do it. For one, her friend, the TV writer,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: had come to me. Stacey and I talked and texted
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  Speaker 1: a lot. She sent me tons of materials. She said
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: it was important for the story to get out there.
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  Speaker 1: Her life had been thrown into chaos. She'd lost friends,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: been scared, traumatized. She went on the lam. She wanted
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  Speaker 1: people to know the truth, that there was no widespread
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: fraud in the 2020 election, how she'd been, quote, duped
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: and lied to by a bunch of powerful people. I
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  Speaker 1: flew to meet her in person for a week in
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  Speaker 1: an undisclosed location, and we spent the days doing interviews,
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  Speaker 1: going through her recordings. I thought we built a nice rapport,
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  Speaker 1: but I couldn't get her to commit to letting me
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  Speaker 1: finish the project. It's always been something of a mystery
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: to me why she bowed out I did know she
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: was mistrustful of journalists, felt burned by other reporters. At
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  Speaker 1: one point, as she and I were negotiating whether to
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: move forward with the series, she asked me to articulate
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: my motivation for doing her story, like write it down.
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  Speaker 1: In 16 years as a reporter, I've never been asked
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: to do that, but I figured fair enough request. And
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: I wrote it in a contract that I sent her
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  Speaker 1: to sign, spelling out my intentions and commitments, as well
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  Speaker 1: as what I'd need from her. It was kind of
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: an awkward document. I have it here. It goes on
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: for a few paragraphs like this. And then I list
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  Speaker 1: all the things I need from Stacey. Full-on-the-record access to her.
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  Speaker 1: Every recording. She never signed it. I never fully understood why.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: We've stayed in touch a bit since the story stalled,
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  Speaker 1: but haven't talked in a while. So the other night,
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  Speaker 1: after a long day of deadlines, after putting my kid
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: to bed, and feeling exhausted but still a bit antsy,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: I gave her a call. I'm recording, okay?
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: I am too.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 4: I assumed we both were.
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  Speaker 1: Usually Stacy records secretly, but we know each other too
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  Speaker 1: well for that. I can't believe we're at another presidential election. Wow.
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  Speaker 2: It's a bit surreal that here we are now four
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  Speaker 2: years later. I would definitely say we're not where I expected.
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  Speaker 2: Things are not where I expected them to be at
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  Speaker 2: this point in time.
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  Speaker 1: What did you expect?
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  Speaker 2: I somehow expected that. There would be more resolution, that
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  Speaker 2: people would have a better, like there would be at
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  Speaker 2: least some sort of understanding of some of the things
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: that happened in 2020 and like a common belief in
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  Speaker 2: what had occurred.
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  Speaker 1: With the story I'd been planning to make about Stacey,
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  Speaker 1: I'd been hoping to do just that, bring people to
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: a common belief in what occurred. Of course, we never
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: got to do that, and I wanted to know why. Ultimately,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: did you not fully trust me? And is that why
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: you didn't go forward with the story?
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: Um, I would say that, that, that was a factor
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: by the time we were talking. I mean, obviously I had,
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: I still have that trust because like, I still talk
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: to you.
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  Speaker 2: And so I had a level of trust, but I think,
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  Speaker 2: I think when you had said you wanted to do
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: the story to come out in October before the election,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: I thought, okay, is this, is this going to be
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: another thing where it's like, you know, slice and dice
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  Speaker 2: the audio clips until it paints a story that's not
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: even the accurate story.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: Like, was it political?
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: You know, was it like, influencing the election kind of thing.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: I just didn't want to be like, have it be like,
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: I'm telling your story only for a political agenda rather
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: than for the true.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Genuine, like it's a meaningful and important story, regardless of
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: the politics, even if Trump weren't running or, you.
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: Know what I mean?
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: It never occurred to me that this would be a
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: big issue, but I guess it's another challenge we're facing
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: as journalists. Even the timing of when you think it's
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: best to release a story can be perceived as partisan.
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  Speaker 1: Whereas reporting on the actions of our leaders when people
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: need to hear it before an election, that's our job description.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: It's also our job description to call things like they are,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: regardless of party. And I think if anything, we've been
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: too willing in the lead up to this election to
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: allow Trump's campaign for president to To be treated as
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: if his candidacy is in good faith when it's not.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: That's a legal concept, good faith. It means in part
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: an absence of intent to defraud. Like I'm negotiating a
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: settlement with you at the end of a lawsuit and
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: even if it's a nasty negotiation and each side hates
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: the other and is trying to put the screws to
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: the other and eek the most they can out of them,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: we're still agreeing to some very basic rules of engagement.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: We're both working within the law. We're not trying to
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: outright lie or trick each other. It's not a high bar.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: But by telling everyone they will not accept an electoral loss,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: and by trying after the last election to overturn a
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: valid result, Trump and the Republican Party have not cleared it.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: When I bring this sentiment up with Stacey, though, someone
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: who was personally deceived by Donald Trump's election lies, whose
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: life was thrown into turmoil because of them, I really
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: thought she'd be more perturbed. You don't seem mad at him.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Um, because I'm still confused about I'm still confused about
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: whether he was being influenced by other people who had
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: their own agendas.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Doesn't that make him so helpless? He's
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: the leader of the free world.
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: It does.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I know what you're saying.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: I like.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: With great power comes great responsibility, right? And I didn't
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: get that. And I've struggled with some of that. I've
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: really taken time to like really kind of think it
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: through from all angles. Like what does he believe? Like
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: what does he truly believe? Does he really think it
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: was stolen? If he truly does believe it was stolen
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: and he truly does have people around him that are
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: telling him, They have proof. And he has people echoing
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: what he wants to hear. You know what I'm saying?
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I get the feeling that maybe this has something to
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: do with why Stacey didn't go through with the story.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: This knee-jerk protectiveness of Trump. Why give him that much
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt? Trump keeps saying the election was stolen.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: He's saying something that's not true. You know, over and
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: over again. Still running on a platform. that's based on
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: this very damaging lie about our democracy, you know?
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Would he be the first politician who ran on a
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: platform of lies?
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Stacey understands the election wasn't stolen. She heard the truth,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: saw it, experienced it firsthand. But if she's not moved
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: to outrage by her own story, by the facts of
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: her own life, what the hell can journalism do? I've
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: had this fantasy of the Stacey story in my mind,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: where she agreed years ago and I figured out all
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: its complications and put out a series and people listened
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: and believed something they hadn't before. Maybe some accepted the truth,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: that our last election was not rigged. But instead, tonight,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: we have a presidential candidate who's still pushing that lie,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: reporting me damned. And alongside it, is promising to go
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: after the press in ways we have not seen. A
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: candidate who yesterday on stage at a rally said, described
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: with relish how he was protected by bulletproof glass, but
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: the reporter's pen wasn't, and imagined aloud in a fantasy
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: of his own how someone could shoot right through the reporters.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: It's hard to picture how any story, no matter how
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: well reported, timely, or moving, would stand up in the
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: face of that. Before I let you go, I just
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: want to give an extra special thanks tonight to my
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: amazing team here. I know this shows a lot about me,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: but so much work and skill from every member of
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: our staff goes into making episodes like this one that
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I hope sounds simple to make, but trust me, they aren't.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: So thank you. Thank you to our producers, Sophie Kaysis
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: and Zach St. Louis, editors Neil Drumming and Jonathan Goldstein,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: our sound designer, Brendan Baker, our fact checker, Maggie Duffy,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: and our intern, Emily Maltare. Also, thanks to KCRW's chief
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: content officer, Arnie Seipel. And of course, thank you to
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: our executive producer, Robin Simeon. Also, by the way, we
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: are on This American Life this week. If you came
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: our way after hearing us there, welcome. Please, everyone, take
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: care and go vote.