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Episode 13 - Beatriz Luz · Unfolding: a circular economy podcast

• Iain Gulland: Welcome to Unfolding, a podcast which is going to unfold the circular economy. Wayne Hubbard: Exploring the current state of circularity progress and crucially how we can all be part of accelerating the transition and take action to combat linear lock-in, whether we are policymakers, businesses or citizens. Iain Gulland: And in this first series of episodes we will be focusing on the upcoming COP thirty one in Turkey in November, where the circle economy has been highlighted as one of the core focus areas for action in the battle to reduce climate emissions. Wayne Hubbard: and we will be talking to a range of experts with knowledge of the process who will give us their take on how national governments can incorporate circular economy principles into climate mitigation strategies. Iain Gulland: And then myself and Wayne will be going to COP in Turkey to try and put into practice what we've learned or what we've put into action what we've learnt in this series of podcasts and try and influence the COP outcome. Wayne Hubbard: So thanks for tuning in. Why don't you join us on this journey in the road to Antalya? Iain Gulland: I am Iain Gulland former Chief Executive of Zero Way Scotland, as well as past president of ACR Plus, a pan European network of cities and regions promoting more sustainable resource management and the circular economy. Wayne Hubbard: And I'm Wayne Hubbard, former CEO of ReLondon and advisor to cities and podcaster now. Iain Gulland: So myself and Wayne are, as you've heard, are going to be talking to a range of exciting guests in the run up to COP to understand a little bit more about the COP process, what we could expect, what we should expect by way of agreements or implementation plans for the circular economy specifically, as well as getting into some wider discussions around the circular economy transition. Wayne Hubbard: As ever, there is an opportunity for listeners and viewers to feed in their thoughts and questions as we go along. Please leave a comment, like and subscribe. Send us an email at unfolding at unfoldcc.com. Suggest future guests we might like to include. We're keen for this to be as interactive as possible. we are delighted to have with us today Beatriz Luz who is the president of the Brazilian Institute for Circular Economy. you're the founder and CEO of Exchange for Change Brazil. We're really honored to have you on today because We're just desperate to get voices from across the globe. So we're really interested in talking to you. And we're lucky enough to have you pretty much the day after your country's elections. So it'd be good to get your take on that and how that relates to circular economy measures in Brazil. maybe, Beatriz if you could just introduce yourself in a bit more detail and then we will dive right into it. beatriz luz: Well it's a great pleasure to be here with you, Wayne and Iain. And yeah, in a very important moment of the Brazilian journey after the election. We are very happy to and expecting to get lots of the things that we built throughout this last few years to continue. So that's good news. And so my journey started back in 2014, more than 10 years ago, at the same moment that the Circular Economy Action Plan was launched. And I was working in the plastic sector and responsible for the green plastic. So the largest production of bioplastic, the plastic from sugarcane, bruscane, the Brazilian company. I was going around Europe and the states with the sales team promoting the green plastic. And this was very interesting because that made me learn at three basic points that I guess is the structural points for my circular thinking. So the first point is that technology is only one part. We must understand. The whole entire value chain to sustain a green technology. So where the raw material is coming from, how the supply chain works, the workforce, and the balance between production and the environment. The two elements is that we must build a business around the technology. So the pricing mechanism, the market demand. And how to communicate the benefits to the end consumer. And the third point: how to coordinate all these aspects and talk to the all the parts of the value chain and make the whole story work from theory into practice. So be technical but also inspiring to sell something that is new. So after I've experienced this journey. And got to learn about the circular economy and how this movement was taking shape in Europe, I decided that I wanted to bring this to Brazil and be the one to coordinate that message. And it was how I launched Exchange for Change Brazil as initially a knowledge exchange platform to bring circular economy thinking to Brazil. Wayne Hubbard: It's really interesting because we've had the pleasure and the honor of talking to, think, some of the pioneers of circular economy, some people from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, Joss Bleriot Ladia from Slovenia, from the Stakeholder Platform, some real pioneers. And you strike me as obviously one of those pioneers. So it's a real pleasure for us. I think though that we've come so far and now we need to move beyond the kind of passionate people. We can't just rely on those passionate individuals. We need to kind of be more systemic. So do you see that any of that kind of systemic approach getting absorbed into Brazil or do you have a kind of a view of how it could become much more systemic. So it doesn't just rely upon, wonderful, passionate people like yourself. beatriz luz: Yeah. I think this is a a natural development, Wayne, because we are talking about a system change. Circular economy is not just about a breakthrough technology or a new financial instrument and conversations between the global north and global south. It's really a a new economic model, a new culture. for production and consumption. And as everything that changes the status quo, there will be barriers and people that want to keep the status quo and people that are courageous enough to change the status quo. So I think the starting point must come from within, from this inspiration, this fashion we are not gonna change the status quo just by bringing numbers. we need to bring you know this emotion, this desire to to change. And I remember on my journey I've learned a lot in the beginning from the Dutch journey. And I remember being in 2016. In Amsterdam, when they launched the view for the Netherlands to be 100% circular until 2050. And by talking later on with Jacqueline Cramer, the Ministry of Environment, that came up with that vision, and also the people from Pace, do you remember the platform Accelerator Circle Economy? David Magnotti, I think, was the guy leading pace. And the question to both of them is how to start you know talking to industry and they both said we need to go with a coalition of believers. So we start the journey by believing that we really need to change. And nobody is going to change the system alone. It's not going to come from just one part of the value chain, not just from the government or the industry or a technology breakthrough. So answering right in a practical terms to your question, yes, it is a system approach. It requires a multidisciplinary team to really come up with the circular solutions in scale. Iain Gulland: Yeah, so another part of this, I I totally agree with what you're saying. I mean, it is, yeah, I mean, I guess pretty similar path, I think, I guess, for myself, my own individual kind of pathway in Scotland, taking that you've been at the same events to some extent, you know, in the Netherlands and at the beatriz luz: Yes. Iain Gulland: start of the journey. So I can absolutely, you know, see the importance of that, you know, but I guess I then interested in... you're in Brazil, so absolutely this kind of European model to better, to coin a phrase about their approach. But then how does that, I guess I were interested in the kind of cultural aspect of Brazil or thinking about, is it different? mean, did you have to kind of vary your approach? Have you learned something different in Brazil, I guess, in the way that you've gone about, you know, being that energy, being that passionate, embracing it and getting other people around the table. You've got, I know that from your work and through the business, working with businesses and stuff like that and the value chain in Brazil. I just feel like, yeah, I guess we be really interesting to hear what's that context like for Brazil as opposed to the European. How different is it? Or is it different? How's the progress been? in Brazil as opposed to other parts of the world. beatriz luz: I think the essence is the same because we're talking about changing the way we produce, the way we consume, the way we relate to each other, the way we make our decisions of buying a product. You know, we are in the digital era, the technological era, and this requires a new economic model. and and how companies promote their products, disseminate knowledge and so on. so in terms of policy and finance, it's the same thing. But of course we're talking about Brazil being a country that is much bigger and have much more resource availability and social implications. So there is an element that is very important that is not just copy the solutions to the from the global north to the global south. I always say since the long-term exchange for change Brazil is co-creating but adapting, you know, tropicalizing the solutions. And I think another point being the social element is that I see a lot of people saying, there is no social in the circular economy. That's why we need to have a circular economy specific for Latin America or the global south. I think this statement is not correct. Because if there is no social in the circular economy, is because it's not circular economy. The circular economy must bring value to all parts of the value chain. So, in countries that we have much more important approach to the social criteria, my view is that we need to build new skills. I think the reuse and repair can open up a lot of opportunity for new employment, new markets. So the difference is focusing on the the infrastructure going beyond the technology, but at the the essence is the same. We need to create the market. If we develop the market, the desire for this new culture. The the country, the society will buy second hand, will buy platforms, we buy the this new experience. And I think this is the same if we want to have a a global circular economy. Iain Gulland: think that, yeah. I mean, again, we've heard this consistently from quite a number of guests, particularly that from the global South, there's the real, you we need to have the social stuff in there. It needs to be more, you know, we have to have the circular economy embedded in the kind of, you know, the social fabric of not just the global South society, but the global North as well. I mean, it does resonate in all the conversations. And again, we... probably say that is, and I guess I'm being honest from my own experience in Scotland, it's not inherently there. It has to be forced into the conversations. It is definitely an environmental context and it's growing in terms of the economics, but it's kind of big economics. It's resilience and competitiveness, not so much that social value. And again, that's the thing about, we sometimes think this is about us sharing what we're doing with the global South. So you can, to some extent, yeah. take that into your spaces. But actually, you know, we've talked a lot about this. How can we learn, you know, it's like, we say we, us and the global law, how can we learn from what you're just telling us that we absolute need to build in that social value. It's this whole, you know, this is really the important thing. I think all of us would say that, you know, and I've heard it from a number of events. I've been hearing from the global south, this bit about community, a bit about the society, beatriz luz: Yeah. Iain Gulland: about fairness. And it's just, yeah, it's something I think we really, so I guess going on to the cop thing, how can we make sure that that's from the center of some of these discussions as well? Because quite often it just becomes all about technology. It becomes about finance. It becomes about application at scale. But we forget the kind of human characteristics of all the need to embrace that kind of social value. I just wonder whether there's a feels like there's a lesson from your work. in Brazil and from other people in the global south in terms of the circular economy to get that message across that we don't forget. In fact, it's not about forgetting it, it's actually making sure it's front and centre of the transition. beatriz luz: Yeah, I think I would call it another level. we need a kind of a baseline level. So we cannot rush towards discussing finance and technology. We need to discuss capacity building, we need to discuss tools, we need to discuss infrastructure. So if we don't have this baseline, there's n there's no point of coming up with lots of circular finance instruments if we don't have the professionals prepared to design good quality projects to assess this circular finance. So I think evaluating of what you were saying, I think this is the level when we discuss circular finance in Latin America and the global south. We need to allocate finance for building the ecosystem, building the skills, bringing the tools, the infrastructure, creating awareness-raising campaigns, creating this desire for new experience. You know, we we when we bring new experience that add value to all of them. It immediately comes up. So let's see Uber, Airbnb, all of these things, immediately, if it's bringing value in equal terms to everybody, it will spread from north to south. And there is one example that is very interesting: plastic film recycling. I remember going to a plant here in Brazil. That they told me that some Americans went there and were impressed with what they established there because to separate the different plastic films, the different colors, the different materials, is very difficult to have a technology that is as precise as the human eye and our movements. So they the the if you have a system set up that combine you know people's skills and machines we can improve the the the closing loop of the materials and i think this is what we can perhaps teach to the the global north is not just having the best machines but is the machine that Iain Gulland: Yeah. beatriz luz: is suitable For that particular area, that region, and that we can combine. The machine should help and assist our work and not replacing the jobs as a lot of people are quite often concerned. You know, I don't want people to be basically being waste pickers, picking up waste. I want them to pick up materials. So if I have a machine or a system. that can bring this both add value in a in a much bigger way. Wayne Hubbard: I wonder, throughout the series, we've been talking to various people who've tried to, I guess, articulate the circular economy in a different way than maybe I was initially thinking, not the business models or the strategies, but really the objective. What is the outcome? And if we were to say that, broadly speaking, the global north needs to consume less than the global south, needs to consume more, if we would say that as a gross generalisation. The global north consuming less would have an impact to presumably a reasonably large extent on the global south's economies. If the global north stopped consuming raw materials, many of which come from the global south. So that's a massive generalisation. But if that were true, What effect do you feel that would have on the global South and how do we avoid it becoming combative, competitive or conflict situation but becomes more of a transition pathway? beatriz luz: Well, for me, circular economy is not about consuming less or consuming more, is about consuming in a different way. Wayne Hubbard: Yes. beatriz luz: so I don't think our role is to push a consumption that will stop decreasing the economy or something like that. My view is that circular economy is not coming to bring solutions to the problems generated by the linear thinking. It's coming to change the system and avoid the problems. So this is my tagline. But obviously the world is much more interconnected and interdependent. The value chains are very much going beyond countries and geographies and I guess another point is that Latin America and especially Brazil has a very big internal market so I don't think of course this international trade and and pricing and what we see in this geopolitical world these days affect us all. But at the same time, I guess it's an opportunity for us to value this international trade. For example, bioeconomy, green products, low carbon products like the green plastic. It could bring lots of opportunities for manufacturing goods in Europe, because you have different raw materials coming from you know Brazil. So I guess we could explore a new commodity trade, the circular commodity trade. You know, we are not gonna stop Wayne Hubbard: That's interesting. Yeah. beatriz luz: generating waste. So how can Wayne Hubbard: Well, think, yeah, I think that's really interesting because, I see, I agree with you, it's not about reducing consumption, it's about consuming differently, so we move from, maybe from consumers to users or whatever it is, but it is about reducing, I think, virgin material extraction and using those materials more wisely throughout the economy. But that's a really interesting point about the trade in secondary materials that could emerge or bio-materials that could emerge maybe towards the latter part of the 21st century as you move from a fossil economy to a materials economy and we have talked about that so do you see that as a kind of you know that's when I guess the global south really gets to maybe assert itself as a you know economically within the geopolitically as well. beatriz luz: Yeah, perhaps this is going back to the question of what could we expect from COP thirty-one. This could be something for us to explore and to discuss. zero waste quite often refers to how we bring value to waste, how which technology Iain Gulland: Mm-hmm. beatriz luz: you know we should bring to transform materials. And then we don't have waste anymore. But the circle of thinking comes before the waste generation. You know, it's on the system redesign, is how we design products, how we design you know the the the value chains. so I guess the discussions at COP31 could be around. from technology to experience to system change, you know, from projects to business. and I think this could be the the the key points for us to evaluate is not just an idea of a new product is how to invest in this new product at scale. Iain Gulland: So if we just think about that, absolutely. And as a key message to take to COP31, absolutely, that we're, it's not, you know, I guess we've touched upon that in other episodes around, you know, we don't want to just talk about waste management or recycling, you know, we want to be upstream. We want to be thinking about that design, material substitution, perhaps thinking about different propositions in terms of using. resources. So that's really important. So guess I'm just thinking last year, COP 30 was in Brazil. Now I know that zero waste circular economy wasn't officially on the agenda, but you know, probably like all COPs, it does seep into the discussions, I'm sure. So I guess I'm interested in was that, how front and centre was the circular economy? in Belém, I think it was, in Brazil. beatriz luz: Yeah. Iain Gulland: And what, yeah, I guess I'm probably thinking about lessons learned, know, if it was talked about, because one of the challenges beatriz luz: Throw up. Iain Gulland: we think we will have is, you know, well, no, the challenge is it could easily just default into talking about waste management. How do we get that upstream? So guess I'm interested in, is there some lessons from your own experience at COP 30? last year and getting the message over that all of the things you've just said, that the opportunity here, which is all about reducing climate change, it's all about reducing emissions, how we can make sure that we do get that upstream dialogue going as in depth beatriz luz: Yeah. Iain Gulland: as possible. beatriz luz: I guess the challenge that we have is how to measure the circularity impact on climate mitigation adaptation. But in preparation for COP thirty last year, it was the first COP that I really had the opportunity to go and stay there the two weeks. I was part of the Brazilian delegation and I made a a little reflection and Bring this into perspective. Circular economy started to be discussed at COP three years ago when circularity was incorporated into the text of the COP as an element there. The following year at COP29, we've seen the first ministerial meeting happen in Baku to discuss a circularity agenda. So at COP 30, Was the first time that we saw a dedicated day to discuss circular economy. So certainly it has broadened international recognition of the circular economy as a strategy for addressing climate change. But it's still a new thinking of what circular economy is in practice. And a lot of the discussions were about waste valorization and traceability of materials, how to measure the impact of circle economy into climate decisions. But one thing that was very important was to incorporate circle economy at the NDC. the national declared commitments. Iain Gulland: Yeah. beatriz luz: And we've seen Brazil incorporating circular economy into our own NDCs, and a few other countries have done that as well. So maybe our role in COP thirty one is to push for more countries to bring the circular economy as an element there into their NDCs. Because the challenge lies now In translating this recognition into specific goals, indicators, instruments capable of demonstrating how this goes to practice, how to transform this production and consumption patterns, how to go beyond waste valorization and thinking about materials. one discussion that I think will be very strong at COP thirty one is as you said, materials resilience, you know, the the the critical minerals, where is this coming from and who has you know the ownership and the capability to explore and refine and use this material as in in in the best way forward. so I think we have an opportunity at Copter Two One to propose this implementation agenda, transforming the economic model and and really understanding circular economy as a a system redesign. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, there's loads in what you just said. We should clip that. And Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: because that's great. Yeah, there's so many questions you could ask from what you just said. I'll just ask one about governance. And you mentioned Jacqueline Cramer early on. And one thing that COP31 seems to me trying to do is establish this Istanbul platform. And although it's a bit opaque as to exactly what that Istanbul platform is. We were wondering if that could be a global transition broker and that other countries or maybe cities, because it's the action agenda, could then feed into that with their own transition brokers. So it could be a way to establish a governance structure to explain and deliver the transition that you've just talked about. Is that something that you would perhaps like to see from COP31? beatriz luz: I think this would be amazing if we could make the conversation going towards that implementation route. You know, Brazil presidents call for this push on implementation. And looking at my journey of 11 years pushing the circular economy implementation, now for me. The most important thing is having this ecosystem ready and having this ecosystem that is multi-sectoral, multi-actors, with a public and private alliances and commitments to design incentives and public policies. We need an orchestrator to orchestrate all of that. It's like Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, yes, yes. beatriz luz: an orchestra, you know. Every single instrument can play alone but together it's much more powerful. And I I totally follow Jacqueline Scramer mission and definition of a transition broker. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, it's interesting. Iain and I were talking about this before the interview. There are lots of people involved in the circular economy, all layers really, from kind of top national and supranational right down to the very local. And it's a beautiful thing, but it's completely organic. And there's a strength in that, but there's also a weakness in that what you've just said, there is no orchestration layer. And I do feel that without that, a lot of the really great stuff that's happening at the local level runs the risk of kind of a stop once the funding runs out or people move away or whatever. So it's great to hear you say that. you know, your friend and colleague, Ladiya, did turn us on to Jacqueline Cramer and the concept of transition breathers, which beatriz luz: Well Wayne Hubbard: I have to admit, neither Iain or I had heard of at the point that she told us about it. So that's a great learning from this podcast experience. beatriz luz: Yeah, I think this is a new piece on the jigsaw to complete the image. you know, I follow lots of the discussions internationally, nationally, and everybody says we have the technology, somehow we have you know finance, we see lots of actors doing good things locally, but things are not integrated. And The change will only come at scale if we integrate all these actors, all these lead solutions locally, if we bring the right incentives, if we have the infrastructure. quite often people ask what comes first? Yeah, what what is the step by step you know journey? Of circular economy transition and getting to scale. And my answer is always that there are a lot of things that must happen at the same time. It's not one step after the other and one professional doing something and the other doing another thing. it's it's finding ways of collaborating, redefining responsibilities. And going beyond what you used to do. And that's the definition of the transition broker. And going back to the beginning of our conversation, the transition broker must be an inspiring person, but also a very practical and well knowledge about the topic to be able to bring everybody together. And get traction and get action into place. Wayne Hubbard: That defines you Beatrice by the sound of it. beatriz luz: Yeah, somehow. Iain Gulland: I don't know. beatriz luz: I think that's why I loved reading Jacqueline DeKramer's book, because I saw myself there, you know. Usually the transition broker is a little bit, you know, crazy going around all places Iain Gulland: Thank beatriz luz: and people that don't understand says, What are they doing? But we are actually Iain Gulland: Yeah. beatriz luz: quite good sewers, you know, we are suing all the pieces. Iain Gulland: Yeah beatriz luz: And then suddenly there's a big nice jacket there. Iain Gulland: So I get that. I that's really nice. I like that analogy there, but sorry. So you can see that and I guess, obviously, I've seen you in practice, Beatriz, in terms of what you're doing in Brazil and there's others, you know, doing that. So I think we can understand that orchestration role, I guess, at a country level or a region level or even a local level. I guess that's, you know, going back to the point about because circular economy needs international collaboration, doesn't it? mean, it ultimately is about the flow of resources and materials across the wider global economy and how different countries use and have access to different materials. And that needs a different degree of orchestration. it's, guess, so. I'm trying to say, know, that we need other infrastructure. We need infrastructure at a local level and a national level, but we need that global infrastructure to support, that those conversations like, you know, global trade, I guess, global standards of performance, how we measure circularity, you've mentioned, you know, and even thinking about, you know, just transition of social value. We need to be thinking about global equity, you know, not just what happens in our own communities. We need to start thinking about what's the impact of of our own consumption, regardless, how smart that is. So I guess there's a need for that. So guess that's the other part of this. How can Cope really start to create that infrastructure, that orchestration? know, and McWane's already mentioned the Istanbul platform, but, you know, who are the, I guess who are the transition brokers who are involved at that international level that we can really start to rely on? Do you know? Do you have any thoughts? I guess this is role I would have thought of presidents, of ministers beatriz luz: Yeah. Iain Gulland: who are there, who are really at the coalface of diplomacy, thinking about those really big opportunities as much as the challenges. And I guess I sometimes think, who are those people? Who are these people who are going to be in the rooms thinking about this through thinking about that infrastructure? what's needed at the kind of global level to make sure that circular economy isn't because it can't we say that all the time when we meet, you know, not even individual countries can't be circular by themselves. It is going to have to be a global approach to our use beatriz luz: Yeah. Iain Gulland: of materials. guess that yeah. Is there a role there for Brazil, do you think, in having had the COP, having seen the circular economy develop? Is there a role for people like, you know, president of Brazil or ministers of Brazil to be front and centre of this or is there other South American opportunities to come to the fore? beatriz luz: Well there's a lot to this as well. But first of all, as you said, there's no circular economy without a fair and equitable transition for all. You know, it has to bring value to to all parts of the value chain, all countries, you know, all sectors, because if we produce A new, let's say, a circular product, you know, a brick produced out of the waste from the mining industry. And then we sell this brick as a circular brick. If we are not aligned with the traditional brick manufacture, we will bring this brick manufacturer to brunk bankruptcy. and that's why. ri requires the solutions to be built between two or three even sectors. Because if we are turning a waste into a new material, we need to understand what is this market that is going to buy and use this material. And I guess what we need to bring To COP thirty-one is this new narrative of circle economy being a competitive economic model. It's not a social solution or a waste solution. It's economy. Bring more economy to the circular economy. Because there are lots of designers, lots of engineers, lots of experts, even. That do a one-hour circular economy course online and they entitle themselves as circular experts. So one thing that we did here in Brazil recently, we invited the economists to discuss circular economy because it does require a new economic balance. You know, this circular brick has to be priced in a different way. All the impact caused by the mining industry have to be incorporated into this pricing model because we are reducing and eliminating the waste from the mining company, creating a product for the construction sector. So the pricing is completely different. so I think we still have a lot to advance. in term in terms of having high-level people well capable of seeing the potential of circle economy. Perhaps that's a role for the transition brokers. You know, these people that started just with an inspirational speech and now have been working hands-on for the last 10 years. This is how we are acquire this knowledge is going there in practical terms and trying to do and talking to different sectors to the different sides of this new circular value chain so I guess that's what could be our journey for COP31 bringing this new narrative transforming Iain Gulland: Yeah. beatriz luz: a technological discussion in a cultural and business discussion Wayne Hubbard: It's motivating, I think. I'm trying to search for the right word. beatriz luz: Okay. Wayne Hubbard: It's great to hear your passion and you make it sound really exciting. And I think we do need transition brokers like you to really help us to develop these narratives. Because one thing we miss, I think, is, or maybe lack is champions. who, know, through, you know, maybe there's an opportunity to bring together a network of champions to kind of develop the narrative and hone the narrative so we can develop a shared, common, compelling narrative that we can then go forth and influence upwards, outwards and downwards. Maybe that would be a good thing. Beatrice. beatriz luz: I think this could be an amazing things for us to do. You know, let's start grouping and and gathering, you know, these champions, people that have been on the ground trying to convince and and persuade system change. And in fact, this was what I've done this year. I've orchestrated a a national roadshow around Brazil. So five regions, five different meetings and five countries as kind of benchmark Wayne Hubbard: Nice. beatriz luz: and inspiration. And after COP we're gonna have our last stop in Manaus. So going back to the Amazonia region. So perhaps why don't I made a call here for the transition brokers to come to Manaus this time and gather, Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Wayne Hubbard: Great idea. Yeah. beatriz luz: bringing what have been discussed at COP thirty one and what we can plan as an action agenda for the years forward. Wayne Hubbard: That would be a great idea, Iain Gulland: Yeah, I think, I think, I think we're really good. And also just the fact, I think, because we said that, you know, transition brokers, as we've been discussing with other guests and, know, hearing that, hearing that kind of definition, how important these people are. And I'd maybe, you know, these people just don't, don't realize how important the role is of a transition broker and all of this, whatever level you're working at, I think, you know, more fundamentally, the circular economy really needs those people. So even just getting them together to kind of. share and recognise that. think that would be really, really good. Well, anyway, we're coming, sorry, we're running out of time as usual. We could just keep talking. This is just really, really inspiring. But just to finish up, I guess the question that we've been asking everyone, if you had your magic wand and you could wave a COP 31, what is it that you would be You'd love to see coming out of COP31. Is there anything in particular you you're wishing for or you could wave that magic wand and see happen to really make that transition of the circular economy go further, faster, and at the pace it needs to go at? beatriz luz: It's looking back of this experience that I had going around the country and also promoting this international knowledge exchange. I guess what I would like to see is more of this continuous engagement between. the global north and global south perhaps a platform environment ecosystem that we can exchange experience more often and not on a kind of one off event an annual event you know all my discuss in all my discussions with La Dea Jacqueline Cramer and Katherine and Karen I think what builds knowledge and resilience and actually courage to continue moving is this having this network of people that truly believe on the system change and that we can learn from each other. so perhaps we could come next year with unique a group of transition brokers are committed to frequently exchange ideas and co create the solutions because all countries will have something to teach and to learn from each other. Wayne Hubbard: There you go. Brilliant. Fabulous. Thank you so much for that Beatriz. It's been really inspiring listening to you and you know, it's great to have a conversation with one of the true circular economy pioneers. Iain Gulland: Yeah, mean again, we heard this I think from the Shalini interview as well, the important story that is... that is out there from the global South and how they are. Yeah, the essence of the change is the same, as you said, but you know, the context, you know, is possibly very different. at the same time, there's things that we should be tapping into that kind of cultural context. Thinking about the social value, thinking about, you know, the positioning of it all in terms of resources and the natural environment. So, yeah, I definitely think again, you know, we've heard that. There's something there that we really need to think about. It's all that, to somebody say, getting out of our UK, our European box, so to speak, and embracing that the journey is very much about everybody being involved in it and everybody being able to tell their story and how they're orchestrating their own circular journey. And that feels really powerful. message as much as the powerful narrative around the economy, we need to get more of the economy and the circular economy, all of these things, absolutely. But I think that fact that this is everyone, everybody. Wayne Hubbard: I think she was really strong on trade and like, because there will be by definition, if you have a circular economy, there'll be a reduction in raw material extraction. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: know, is this transition to a secondary, a circular trade, you know, what does that look like? And we've kind of touched upon that throughout the series as well. And maybe that's worth fleshing out a bit more. And then one thing I think she was right to, push back slightly. It's been a theme of mine that it's not good enough to have just passionate people driving this forward. needs to be sort of, there needs to be a governance and orchestration layer. It needs to be plumbed in. But of course she's right. You need passionate people to get the blooming thing started. You needed, you know, Ellen MacArthur to, to, you know, cause she really kickstarted a lot of this back in 2012, which led to Janic, you know, Janic doing the circular economy. package and that led to you, me and others kind of coming into it because we'd, well you were slightly before I think, but heard that this was happening. So Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: you needed those passionate people but it's not good enough to just rely upon that forever is it? That's my point. Iain Gulland: No, yeah, I totally agree. mean, that's the saying, isn't it, you know, getting points across that emotion always beats rationale, doesn't it? You you can be as rational as you want, but people are always swayed by emotion and passionate speakers and passionate people, know, Wayne Hubbard: but good communicators. Iain Gulland: good communicators and all that sort of stuff. So guess absolutely, totally agree. And I totally agree with you, though, you need to build firm foundations on the back of that, you know, and underneath. it's, it's about the things that you talked about having that. local capacity, local tools, local infrastructure, know, people qualified or, you know, understanding their role comes back to that orchestration. know, yes, you need people to be the conductor, but you need everybody to understand what instrument they're playing and why that's important to the tune that they're playing. So I think absolutely, you know, so, but yeah, and guess that's point we've been talking about is how do we make sure that we're building those foundations and not just at a local level, but at a country level and at a global level, you know, and comes back to, you know, conversations we've had about, you know, international material hubs or the Istanbul platform and all of those things. These are the bits of the infrastructure that we, at the global level, we really do need as well, that it doesn't just become a very, you we can build from the local, but we need all of that other stuff as well, because it is an international, you know, an international. journey that we're going on as much as any. Yeah, yeah. Wayne Hubbard: Well, it's the forest analogy again, isn't it? Or the garden analogy. It needs to be sufficient to be able to sustain those young pilots. Good. Iain Gulland: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Wayne Hubbard: Right. You're to Iain Gulland: Okay, so Wayne Hubbard: say your thing. Iain Gulland: I'll say my thing. So thank you. That's the end of this episode. You have been listening to Unfolding, a circular economy podcast. I've been Iain Gulland. He's been Wayne Hubbard. Thank you to our guest today, Beatriz Luz from Brazil. I hope you will be able to listen to the next episode. and we look forward to seeing you all soon. Wayne Hubbard: Like and subscribe.