Latest / The Layback Podcast / Anthony Casciola, Founder of Casciola Performance (Ep. 93)

Transcript

Anthony Casciola, Founder of Casciola Performance (Ep. 93) · The Layback Podcast

• 0:00
  Hey everyone, welcome back to the Lay Back podcast.
• 0:02
  Joining us today is Anthony Casiola, better known as Cass,
• 0:07
  the founder, creator, head honcho of Casiola performance.
• 0:13
  As he would say, Labrum isn't real.
• 0:15
  Maybe that's how you guys know him on Instagram.
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  I'm, I'm assuming you're on TikTok as well.
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  I'm not on there, so I don't know.
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  I'm gonna stay off. There, don't do that, yes.
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  To be fair, I don't think I've seen you on Twitter though.
• 0:27
  Not a Twitter. Guy.
• 0:28
  Not really. I'm not a Twitter guy.
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  I stay off air for sure. But yes, we we've got cast with
• 0:34
  us former collegiate pitcher. As we said, Labrum isn't real.
• 0:38
  We'll peel back the layers on that a little bit because this
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  is a man who has gone through it for sure with the shoulder and
• 0:45
  has come back to throw hard again.
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  Now he works with athletes and they return to throw processes
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  as well as just performance training in general.
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  But but certainly in the throwing baseball world, really
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  looking forward to the conversation today.
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  I'm fortunate to have a few crossover collaborations with
• 1:03
  Cass on an athlete or two in the flex, pro grip and throwing
• 1:08
  world. But with that, let's get to it.
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  So, Cass, thanks for joining us today.
• 1:13
  Thank you for having me. Thank you.
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  Where are we going to start? What's the first questions here?
• 1:18
  Dude the questions are easy, just take it away.
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  What's the background? What are the need to know high
• 1:23
  level bullet points? Yeah, so, I mean, a lot of
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  people initially know me from my story, which actually did
• 1:29
  originate on TikTok when I was posting a lot of my labrum rehab
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  process. But I played at UNC Charlotte,
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  best school in the world. Love those guys.
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  I still live in Charlotte. I'm like 10 minutes from there.
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  Born and raised. Yeah, I got there and Velo, I
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  would run it up into the mid 90s.
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  And then slowly going into my second year at Charlotte, it
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  started to go down and down and down and there wasn't any pain.
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  It was fine, but it was slowly going down 918988 So I get back
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  for my second year and then you know, out of nowhere that's when
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  it popped. So I was just thrown in the
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  indoor facility and shoulder just blew up.
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  Didn't know what it was. Never had shoulder or elbow pain
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  in my entire life. MRI, labral tear end up going
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  under the knife. And then at first I'd expect a
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  pretty normal rehab process, just fight through labrum and
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  then get back in a year or whatever.
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  But then I woke up with 10 anchors in my shoulder and a
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  decompression of the acromion. So that was a bit of a wake up
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  call. And that's kind of where I got a
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  little infamous with it. So people like on social media
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  when I was posting, a lot of people were like, man, like you
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  got screwed up. That's kind of how I that's kind
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  of how people recognize me at that point, which is very
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  awkward for me. But from there, you know, the
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  rehab process was not fun. A pain did not go away for
• 2:46
  almost a year and a half post op, which is really ugly.
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  Talk about a lot on my page. I'm very honest with my failures
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  in my process, which is why I think a lot of athletes resonate
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  with me in my process. And I ended up shutting my arm
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  down 7 times over the course of tear through full
• 3:02
  rehabilitation. I had seven shutdowns where I
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  put the ball down just entirely for at least a month at a time.
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  And then I started to pick up. I ended up training with DAC
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  Performance and Health, who a lot of people know.
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  I owe that dude everything. I'm going to send him a text
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  here on Thanksgiving and thank him for fixing my arm.
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  But I had rehabbed with him for six months remotely and it was a
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  success. I ended up doing his
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  rehabilitation process and I wrote my own Throwing
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  Progression in which he thought I was a little bit crazy, but I
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  decided to write it for myself. And I was publicly posting it on
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  social media that I was going to write my return to throw for
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  myself because I wasn't happy with the last 7 shutdowns that I
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  had. And it worked.
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  So I ended up in my pain, ended up going away and my velocity
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  returned into the low 90s at that point.
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  From there, DAC ended up hiring me and we were working together
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  in DAC performance and health. He would rehab athletes.
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  I would write throwing progressions for them.
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  And then a year goes by with that.
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  We end up going our separate way, separate ways.
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  We're still buddies. I sent him a Harvard football
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  player lineman like the other day coming off rehabilitation
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  process. I trust Brady and and DAC and
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  his entire process with with my life is is it healed me.
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  But yeah, from there. Now I own a company where I'm
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  writing Return to Throw for a living and we have a full staff
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  that does it for me as well. So naturally, as we peel back
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  the layers here, there's going to be a lot to it.
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  However, you mentioned getting back to the low 90s.
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  What did performance look like for you when you ultimately made
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  it back? We, we talk so much about just
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  making it back, but making it back to so many is just putting
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  on the jersey again or stepping on the field again.
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  It sounds like your velocity got close to the previous number.
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  Maybe not exactly where it was, but performance metrics.
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  Where were those at? Yep, I ended up pre operation
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  horse I'd ever thrown was 95.9. I'm a decimal guy.
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  I can't round it up sadly. I ended up doing 92 in the
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  summer after I hit hit 90 on the mound.
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  I'd continue to train before ultimately, you know, taking the
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  job with DAC. And it's kind of a recurring
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  theme here now where there's a difference between return to
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  play rate and then return to previous performance rate, which
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  is a huge debate in the community.
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  Some things that I think I've noticed just in my process and
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  with a lot of my labral athletes is recovery time.
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  So not just necessarily an athlete pre operation is up to
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  92, get surgery a year later we're back to 92.
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  That's fantastic. But now like they can't throw
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  every five to seven days. I have a lot of athletes here.
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  That soreness overall, just like just crippling fatigue coming
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  off labour surgery is something that I haven't seen talked about
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  too much. And that's what happened to me
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  as well, where it's like my velocity was close to getting
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  back. But the main issue was if you
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  wanted me to throw back-to-back days, I don't know if I could do
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  that. It's very, I've noticed that
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  with a lot of labour guys that DM me, guys that I work with.
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  I think the number one thing that I see is not just return to
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  play or you know, return to previous performance, It's the
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  ability to bounce back and do it consistently every single week.
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  How many dealers you going to have?
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  How are you? How are you going to get through
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  fatigue through labrum? So that's just what I've noticed
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  in my process. And I know you can speak on your
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  specific process with Labrum and then a lot of the athletes you
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  work with with Labrum, but really across all injuries,
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  that's so common. Just that that's a massive part
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  of performance. And sadly that's not discussed
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  enough. All of us can get caught in a
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  vacuum, whether it's chasing a pitch shape or chasing a
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  velocity or whatever that that one appearance back.
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  But the game of baseball, how often can you do it?
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  For me, it's not just can you do it once?
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  Can you get back on the mound five days later, six days later
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  if you're a starter or can you do it two days later if you're a
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  reliever? And that's that's probably an
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  under addressed part of the rehab.
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  So now maybe this is a decent jumping off point to get into
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  the process. I know where we're kind of going
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  to hop, skip and jump all over the place as we talk about
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  things. But maybe from your own
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  experiences there with your struggles to bounce back or what
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  you're seeing from others, is that something that you then
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  consider in the rehabilitation process?
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  Are you trying to work with athletes to change throwing from
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  more of a periodization schedule?
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  Almost like it's traditional lifting, which is now kind of
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  what we commonly see when athletes are just handed their
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  sheet of paper throwing program as opposed to actually getting
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  prepared for the demands of the sport.
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  Yeah. And I think a big part of my
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  process and what I believe in is that intensity is typically what
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  causes injury over a long period of time.
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  So if you look at college baseball nowadays, it's turned
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  into a bit of a year round sport.
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  They're playing all spring, then you immediately go into summer
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  ball, and then you go back into August.
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  You're doing inner squads all fall, fighting for a spot.
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  Winter comes around, you think it's the offseason, then you're
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  doing pull downs to chase velocity again.
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  So you're basically throwing as hard as you can all the time.
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  So with my return to throw, I believe in upping volume quite a
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  lot. That doesn't necessarily mean
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  intensity all the time, but I believe in throwing more in a
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  return to throw process so that long term we're able to battle
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  those fatigue issues that we see like thrown in and extend the
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  next, you know, you're out for 10 days from soreness, right?
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  So I like to up volume a lot and I like to throw a lot of
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  different things. I am an advocate for throwing a
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  lot of overload weighted balls. Football is fantastic in our
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  process and we'll throw it more than a baseball before we
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  actually transition into a baseball in our process.
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  But on top of that, I also like going back to what you said,
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  like the kind of cookie cutter kind of copy and paste programs
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  that we all are not a fan of. I put athletes through difficult
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  situations on purpose. So there are days in our
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  schedule where I will make them do a double session of lifting
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  or some DAC double session of training on a day where we have
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  to throw a flat ground and get velocity.
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  And I'll make them do bench press a day before and we're a
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  little tight in the pack. And I'll make them do Max
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  reverse lunge right before we go out to throw our second flat
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  round of the week. And I do that because if we're
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  going to try and prefer prepare ourselves for the stress of the
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  game, there's going to be times where in the real world you're
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  going to be on a bus for 12 hours.
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  You got to get up and throw for 120 pitches including warm up.
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  So I make our training process extremely difficult in terms of
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  volume. I'm never here to shoot people
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  past this fatigue threshold. We're always in constant
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  communication to make sure that they're just not dying on a
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  daily basis. But at the same time, there's
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  times where I like to get them out of their comfort zone and
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  I'm not going to give him that little 20 to 30 minute primer
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  left the day before a bullpen. There's days where I'm going to
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  make it difficult deliberately, but I do it to challenge them
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  not only physically but mentally.
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  I want them to be prepared for the actual stress of the game,
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  if that makes sense. I know you aren't doing this
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  blindly of just like the mental toughness.
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  I know you mentioned the mental fortitude that comes with it of
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  having to work through hard things, but this isn't just a
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  blind action of things have to be hard because the sport is
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  hard. You were doing this with a
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  purpose and I know communication is a huge part of the process
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  for you and so is objective measurement.
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  In order to work with you, I know you require guys to have a
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  radar gun of some sort. I, I know you have guys who
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  utilize other tracking tools, whether it's a pulse sensor,
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  whether it's Flexpro grip, whether it's shoulder
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  dynamometry. How then do you manage things
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  like that or utilize things like that, I should say, to gain
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  objective measures to toe that razor thin line between
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  development and increased risk? Yeah, so we track everything.
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  I will give a brief shout out to Rehab Renaissance.
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  I started using their stress tracker and UCL reconstruction
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  return to throw and it's been fantastic.
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  But you do have to have radar to train here.
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  That's required. I hate forcing that on athletes,
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  but I'm like, listen, you got to invest in a pocket radar or just
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  steal it from a teammate and don't tell them.
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  But that's we do believe in that year.
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  We are testing group strength consistently.
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  And if they don't have that for some reason, then we're going to
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  test dead hangs. Every single metric is tracked
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  and stored in our database. And then our staff makes just
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  straight chart graphs just to see where they're at.
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  Any sort of ridiculous spike in velocity, we're going to play it
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  by ear. I'm probably going to just
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  deload them anyways, to be honest, because a lot of the
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  battle here is not only just tracking their like actual
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  metrics and fatigue, but it's also like understanding that the
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  athlete isn't just like always go, go, go, go, go, right.
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  Some of those guys you got to cool down at the same time,
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  right? But going back to what you said
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  where I'm not just like programming blindly, just like
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  making it hard just to make it hard.
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  It is funny you say that, but something I've noticed with a
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  lot of my athletes is that I don't think they realize just
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  how impressive it is to get a surgery at the age of 17 and
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  then battle through it and then go back and pitch again.
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  It's unbelievable what these guys are able to accomplish it
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  Like seriously, like your your arm gets cut open and then you
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  battle it yourself and then you play the sport again like a year
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  later. It's fascinating how these guys
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  can do it, but sometimes they don't realize that and they have
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  lack of confidence going back into the game, right?
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  The training process is not just meant for the workload itself.
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  It's supposed to be there so that they can look in the mirror
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  and tell themselves that what I have done is so incredible from
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  a work ethic standpoint that there is no reason to feel to
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  have the fear of failure, right? That's a lot of the reason
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  behind it. When basically I just want to
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  touch on that. When you said like, I'm just
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  making things hard for no reason, which I think I, by the
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  way, I, I posted about this the other day.
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  I do think people like to do that for no reason, like the
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  David Goggins kind of mentality of just like everything just has
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  to be hard, like all the time, not just randomly and blindly.
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  I I do it because I want these athletes to understand that
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  coming back from surgery means that they can accomplish
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  anything and they should not have a fear of failure once they
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  get, you know, once they get back on the mound at all.
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  Continuing down that path, how much is that a theme in your
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  communication with athletes? Obviously you posted about it
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  the other day. You're giving them, as you kind
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  of coined the term, their tests throughout the process.
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  Granted, again, you said it's not just test for the sake of it
• 13:51
  being a test. You are actually exposing an
• 13:54
  individual to the demands that they might experience during a
• 13:57
  season or something that they need to become accustomed to.
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  With that, how often are you in the athletes ear?
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  Is it one of those like, hey, this week's going to be a little
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  bit tougher because we have AB and C on the horizon or this is
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  what I expect and This is why we're doing it?
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  I actually, I'm going to use an example of a conversation I had
• 14:20
  last night with one of my athletes.
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  I'm going to keep his name private, but he works with March
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  Asani, by the way. Oh, awesome.
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  Literally I'm I'm texting March Asani about him because he's
• 14:28
  going to start return. This athletes going to start
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  return throw in two weeks. I was on the phone with this
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  athlete last night and we just started dry reps for the first
• 14:36
  time leading up to our first throws in a couple weeks.
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  And he was extremely nervous and I watched it and he told me on
• 14:44
  the call how nervous he was. This is like a three to five
• 14:47
  RPE. Like just step and throw very
• 14:50
  casual shoulder did not want to accept, lay back out of ball in
• 14:54
  her hands. Like very just nervous at that
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  point. So when it comes to this mental
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  training that you've kind of asked me about, I immediately
• 15:01
  made him sign up for another call.
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  I'd sent him the same call link while I was on the phone with
• 15:05
  him. And we're going to talk about it
• 15:06
  again this week. We're going to get on the phone
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  and we're going to talk about it.
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  And that's the kind of stuff that I think these guys need.
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  And that's a big part of my program is communication in the
• 15:15
  sense of if this athlete is afraid of doing dry reps instead
• 15:21
  of just giving him the next two weeks to kind of figure it out
• 15:23
  on his own. I mandated him to get on the
• 15:25
  phone and we're going to talk about it.
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  And we're going to talk through it.
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  And I'm going to ask him, why are you nervous?
• 15:30
  Why are you afraid of doing these things?
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  What is holding you back? What do I have to do to ensure
• 15:34
  that you're not nervous going into this, this next session?
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  And he's got dry, dry reps tomorrow.
• 15:40
  We're doing it again. So we're not here to avoid the
• 15:43
  situation. If there is pain, if there is
• 15:45
  discomfort, I don't just want to be like, let's just put it to
• 15:49
  the side. It'll be a problem down the
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  road. I want to have a conversation
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  about it on the phone. I want to text about it.
• 15:54
  And I want to make sure that we're both on the same page for
• 15:57
  how can we get through this so that we aren't afraid of doing
• 16:00
  it down the line. And that that comes in.
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  And I talked to Marcus Sonny about this recently where it's
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  like, I don't even think an athlete should throw a baseball
• 16:08
  overhead coming off surgery like labrum teacher or anything, if
• 16:12
  they have any sort of doubt or fear or anything in the process.
• 16:17
  And that's kind of where I come in.
• 16:19
  We're like, you can't really track that.
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  I wish we could. I wish there was a way to have a
• 16:23
  metric about confidence, but you kind of can't.
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  So this is where I believe in the constant communication with
• 16:28
  the athlete. We're like, I got to get on the
• 16:30
  phone with these guys. I got to make sure we're on the
• 16:32
  same page. I got to make sure they're not,
• 16:34
  they're not lying to me and, and hiding something to try and act
• 16:37
  tough because I, I was there in my process as well, right?
• 16:42
  Let's get creative for a moment and talk about this then with an
• 16:47
  athlete who isn't fortunate enough to have a true return to
• 16:51
  throw coach. They are at their school or in
• 16:56
  their org and they're relying upon a medical staff.
• 16:59
  Yes, there's someone there to help them, but there's a coach
• 17:04
  or there's a medical professional that's also
• 17:06
  responsible for everybody else around them.
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  So if we're going to get creative here, what are ways
• 17:13
  that you think we can either empower the athletes to speak up
• 17:17
  or empower the coaches or clinicians in those position to
• 17:22
  kind of take down that wall? Because obviously the
• 17:26
  communication part is huge. The trust part is huge in
• 17:29
  trusting yourself as well as trusting those around you and
• 17:33
  then trusting that the program is something that's actually
• 17:35
  going to get you where you want to go.
• 17:39
  We we need to do better as a whole.
• 17:41
  I don't think that is a hot take for anyone that might be
• 17:45
  listening to this. That's why we have this podcast.
• 17:48
  That's why we have these discussions.
• 17:49
  We all know that we need to be better and we all want to be
• 17:52
  better. I don't think it's a lack of
• 17:54
  want at this point, but it's actually figuring out a way to
• 17:57
  be better. So if you and I are going to
• 17:59
  make recommendations here, is there anything at the top of
• 18:03
  your mind that you would even suggest in that team setting?
• 18:06
  So I think, and this is actually not a lot of people know this, I
• 18:11
  was working on getting a masters of public health and I still
• 18:14
  want to go back. I'm halfway through it.
• 18:16
  I just kind of have this job right now.
• 18:18
  It's. Kind of doing a thing.
• 18:20
  Kind of doing something like, you know, behind the scenes, the
• 18:24
  reason why I bring up public health is because I believe that
• 18:28
  in the world, if there is a health issue, it comes down to
• 18:32
  educational barriers and then sometimes financial barriers.
• 18:36
  I, I think it's that simple. I, I think when there are issues
• 18:40
  in a society and I consider surgical procedure under the
• 18:43
  health category, I think there's educational issues and I think
• 18:47
  there's financial issues. So in order to combat this, a
• 18:50
  lot of what I've really tried to do is make everything as
• 18:54
  educational as possible and as free as possible.
• 18:57
  I'm not like saying this in a Good Samaritan context.
• 19:00
  I'm also not like shouting myself out, but like we offer a
• 19:03
  free trial for athletes an entire week.
• 19:07
  It's entirely free. It is literally the exact same
• 19:11
  service that all of my athletes get.
• 19:14
  You are assigned to me or another coach and we walk you
• 19:17
  through it. Guys who are starting their
• 19:19
  return to throw a process in two weeks and they just want to get
• 19:22
  on the phone and talk about what they need to do.
• 19:25
  What advice do they, what advice do they need?
• 19:27
  And I'm never going to take that free trial down.
• 19:29
  I'm never going to do that because that kind of goes down
• 19:32
  to what I had in my process where nobody, nobody sat down
• 19:36
  with me and told me the exact steps, right?
• 19:39
  So that's number one is we do free trial.
• 19:40
  And then we actually, you and I spoke about this the other day
• 19:43
  posting educational content. I'm trying to post a lot more
• 19:45
  long form educational content that people can follow.
• 19:49
  I just posted like one of our Tommy John return to throw
• 19:51
  processes. I'm not here to say, hey, guys,
• 19:53
  watch that video and then go do this process by yourself and you
• 19:56
  don't need a coach in your corner.
• 19:57
  That's not what I'm saying. But I think constantly posting,
• 20:01
  more education, constantly posting content.
• 20:04
  To spread awareness about injury as if I'm thinking about this
• 20:07
  like a public health sector I think will help injury down the
• 20:10
  line. And I think this goes back to
• 20:12
  yet again, if athletes are in a team setting or they don't have
• 20:15
  the medical staff or they don't have the finances for a tread
• 20:18
  coach or me or to pay for anybody else.
• 20:20
  I think that constantly spreading awareness about what
• 20:24
  these athletes need to be doing in their process, I think will
• 20:27
  help them long term because that it just comes down.
• 20:29
  It just comes down to that. We know how to fight injury.
• 20:33
  We we know how to beat Tommy John, we know how to beat Labour
• 20:35
  and we can do it. It just comes down to the
• 20:36
  resources around it. And it it also comes down to
• 20:39
  constantly learning more about the injury itself.
• 20:42
  We're constantly adapting with it.
• 20:44
  All right, does that answer your question?
• 20:46
  Does that make sense with the? No, no, I'm with you.
• 20:49
  I'm a big proponent of that as well.
• 20:51
  I would say we align as closely as we can, even as a group that
• 20:56
  sells a product in a service. Of course, much like you, it's
• 20:59
  it's hard to be a 100% complete Boy Scout in this world.
• 21:03
  We have to make livings and keepers over our head as well.
• 21:06
  We can't do everything from a fully altruistic perspective.
• 21:10
  But we started Flex Pro Grip with the mission to completely
• 21:13
  eradicate Tommy John from the earth.
• 21:15
  Is that ever going to happen? No, I get it.
• 21:18
  I understand. Also, I'm willing to accept
• 21:21
  this. Crazy, maybe mildly immoral
• 21:25
  position or unethical position that may be some level of injury
• 21:31
  rate is OK because it means that we're pushing forward on the
• 21:35
  performance side. And like, yeah, that's that's
• 21:38
  probably not Madam wearing the flex Pro RIP hat saying that.
• 21:40
  That's more Adam saying it's really cool to watch Aroldis
• 21:44
  Chapman throw one O 4 and Mason Miller throw one O 4, and all
• 21:50
  these dudes defy whatever a human can do on a daily basis.
• 21:55
  I love that. Do I want to see someone throw a
• 21:57
  108? Yeah, I do.
• 21:59
  Do I want to see someone throw a 115?
• 22:01
  Yeah, I do. I don't care what the limit is,
• 22:04
  but I want to test it. And if we're going to continue
• 22:07
  to test those things, there's probably some inherent level of
• 22:10
  risk, no matter how good we get at every part of the training
• 22:14
  and education process. Because let's face it, we're all
• 22:18
  probably a little psychopathic in a way, if we're willing to
• 22:22
  commit ourselves to a life of trying to throw a ball of
• 22:27
  rawhide with seams, tying it together as hard as we possibly
• 22:31
  can while someone is just swinging a wooden stick to try
• 22:35
  to send it back our direction. That's, that's pretty crazy.
• 22:38
  So like, I'm, I'm with you from the side of education.
• 22:42
  We have to do what we can. We have to do our best to make
• 22:46
  things available. That gets really hard.
• 22:49
  I, I feel like we can kind of shift the discussion then to, to
• 22:51
  the business side. I'll try to, I'll try to avoid
• 22:53
  that entirely. But yeah, we, we need to keep
• 22:57
  things as available as possible to the masses.
• 23:01
  And whether that is education or other content of like, hey, you
• 23:05
  don't have access to this thing, here's a substitute.
• 23:09
  It might not be as good. And you should understand the
• 23:12
  shortcomings that are associated with it.
• 23:15
  However, you might at least be taking steps that are in the
• 23:19
  right direction, even if it's not the perfect solution.
• 23:22
  This does kind of lead me to my next question though, of with so
• 23:27
  much publicly available information.
• 23:30
  I think you said it well yourself.
• 23:32
  We have the technology, we have the information to prevent Tommy
• 23:38
  John from happening. We have the information to stop
• 23:41
  a labrum injury from happening. Why then do you think we are so
• 23:46
  stuck in the mud with actually making the change?
• 23:50
  I think I'm just going to call a spade a spade here.
• 23:53
  I think we throw insanely hard and I think the performance
• 23:59
  world, the general, just overall sports performance, I think this
• 24:03
  is the most unbelievable human beings have ever been across
• 24:07
  like any sport, I think, I think throwing a baseball takes the
• 24:10
  cake. I think it's unbelievable how we
• 24:12
  have been able to go from an average velocity of like 90 and
• 24:15
  then MLB like 20 years ago to like like 90 is not even good
• 24:19
  enough to get into college at some places right now.
• 24:21
  It's unbelievable. I don't even know what's going
• 24:23
  on, how fast it happened. I'm not trying to sound yet
• 24:26
  again, just so just blunt and like ignorant saying it, but I,
• 24:30
  I really do think we figured out how to throw insanely hard and
• 24:33
  we did it very fast happened with COVID too.
• 24:36
  That's when I really started to notice that people just figured
• 24:39
  it out. I don't think we've caught up
• 24:42
  yet in terms of the education promoting it, the awareness of
• 24:48
  its, you know what I mean? I think Flexpro is the not
• 24:51
  trying to glaze you. I think it's the best start that
• 24:53
  we have. I think we're, I think we're
• 24:55
  getting there. But yeah, I, I do think that
• 24:57
  over time, I think human beings always prevail.
• 25:01
  And I think we'll figure it out. And I do think the Tommy John
• 25:04
  injury rates will go down. I really do, just because I
• 25:07
  think that there's so many people, incredible people in the
• 25:11
  community right now who are promoting injury awareness that
• 25:13
  I look up to. And I, and I think we're doing a
• 25:15
  great job on it. And I I do think that in the
• 25:17
  next decade, it will go down just because resources are
• 25:20
  becoming more accessible, education being posted
• 25:23
  constantly, like for the greater good.
• 25:25
  You guys are killing it. I think that we're going to
• 25:29
  figure it out. But I do think that, yeah, I, I
• 25:32
  think the answer is simple. I don't necessarily think we
• 25:34
  evolved to throw this object, the 104, like you just said, and
• 25:38
  hit it with a stick. I don't really think we were
• 25:40
  supposed to do that, but we did it because just how we are, yes.
• 25:45
  I'm going to shift ever so slightly here now to talk about
• 25:49
  something that we actually implement a little bit
• 25:53
  differently. And I say we flex pro grip in
• 25:56
  kind of our encouraged rehab slash return to throw process
• 26:01
  versus something that you do. And I, I think this is where
• 26:04
  discussion becomes really important because both of us
• 26:08
  obviously believe in our processes and we are comfortable
• 26:11
  enough to have the discussions and say why we believe this and
• 26:14
  probably recognize that there's a ton of merit and what the
• 26:17
  other person is saying. I have consumed enough, I think
• 26:21
  of your content to this point to recognize how married you are to
• 26:26
  the baseball slash throwing whole process should be very
• 26:31
  fun. There should be low stress
• 26:33
  environment, so we're not going to raid our gun necessarily
• 26:36
  every throw. And of course there's merit to
• 26:40
  tracking every single throw, but then there's merit to having the
• 26:43
  freedom of mind to just go out and play catch.
• 26:46
  So I would love if you could just kind of expand on that a
• 26:49
  little bit. I think people that have
• 26:51
  followed us have very much become accustomed to our
• 26:56
  commitment to the objective side of things.
• 26:58
  But that's not to say that the subjective or human experience
• 27:01
  side isn't important or doesn't matter or there's not a place
• 27:05
  for it. So I definitely want you to take
• 27:07
  the stage and just kind of explain your logic in taking
• 27:10
  that position. I think he really just said it
• 27:13
  best in the, in the sense of like earlier in this talk, we we
• 27:16
  talked about like challenge people and like things are done
• 27:19
  for specific reasons. Yet again, separate
• 27:21
  philosophies. Like completely agree.
• 27:22
  But I do believe in not holding yourself to this ridiculous kind
• 27:28
  of standard of like perfection. I had an athlete the other day,
• 27:31
  literally his velocity goal was 48 to 50 miles an hour, small
• 27:36
  little window, right? And he hit 151 and the dude
• 27:40
  apologized me on the text. Like he texted me and he's like,
• 27:43
  Oh my, he's like, I'm I can't, I'm sorry.
• 27:45
  My bad. I was just like, dude, like it's
• 27:47
  OK. Like it's it's OK.
• 27:49
  That's what I'm trying to say to him.
• 27:50
  It's like, it's like it's OK. You, you don't, you don't have
• 27:53
  to be in this little robot acting sort of box.
• 27:57
  And also on top of that, one day I'm not going to be there to
• 28:01
  help you in your career. I'm not here to be here for the,
• 28:04
  for the rest of your college career.
• 28:05
  It's like, get in here, get your return of throw done and get
• 28:08
  out. And I tell my athletes, I'm
• 28:10
  like, don't ever talk to me again.
• 28:11
  I hope you never talk to me again because that's a good
• 28:12
  thing. It means your forearm didn't
• 28:14
  wear up. You know what I mean?
• 28:16
  So I want these guys to have free will and there's times
• 28:20
  where in their program they have velocity charts every single day
• 28:25
  for the most part. And I'll go in and I'll edit it
• 28:27
  out like randomly. One of my athletes, Trace
• 28:30
  Mercer, he's 12 weeks in the return of throw right now.
• 28:34
  Around week 6. I just went into his sheet
• 28:36
  randomly and I was like, hey, Wednesday, toss, put the gun
• 28:39
  down. Don't look at it, just just play
• 28:42
  catch as if we're just a regular human being playing catch.
• 28:45
  And I think that's why I think that's what what I want them to
• 28:47
  do is I want them to be a regular human being.
• 28:51
  I don't want them to be Trace Mercer, the Tommy John athlete,
• 28:54
  Trace Mercer, the guy working with Casular Performance.
• 28:57
  I want them to just play catch and just be a human being.
• 29:00
  That's kind of how I think about the the mental battle of it.
• 29:05
  And I'm not just doing this from like this philosophical
• 29:07
  standpoint. I'm doing it over the sense that
• 29:09
  like injured athletes tie their identity to it.
• 29:12
  And that's what I did every every day of my process was
• 29:15
  like, I'm the lab room kid. I'm the lab room guy.
• 29:18
  When I show up in the locker room, everybody knows I'm the 10
• 29:20
  anchor guy. You know what I mean?
• 29:21
  That's what people called me when they would DM me.
• 29:23
  I'd, I'd get DM saying you're the 10 anchor guy from
• 29:26
  Charlotte, stuff like that, right?
• 29:28
  It's you start to tell yourself that.
• 29:29
  So I like to tell my athletes to forget about the stress of it
• 29:35
  all a lot of the time. Does all that make sense?
• 29:38
  Is that kind of what you're looking for?
• 29:40
  Yeah, I, I think it's really just your experience there.
• 29:43
  That's that's what I was looking for you.
• 29:45
  And it's not like I'm trying to put you on the stand and make
• 29:48
  you defend anything. It's more just why you have
• 29:52
  chosen to step away from some of the objective measures even
• 29:58
  though you recognize the importance of them.
• 30:01
  And I wanted to understand the human experience side of things,
• 30:05
  I guess. Now let's let's shift this back
• 30:09
  to you. You started to mention like you
• 30:12
  took this identity on. I very much did the same thing.
• 30:15
  I've been very open about that, whether on the podcast or little
• 30:19
  things here and there that I've appeared on of what I put my
• 30:22
  identity into and blowing up my shoulder, I mean, sent me off
• 30:27
  the edge for a while. I, I felt like I lost sight of
• 30:30
  who I was and what mattered to me.
• 30:32
  I'm sure you very much felt similar things, given all you
• 30:36
  knew was baseball for however long and all you knew was
• 30:39
  pitching for however long is part of the reason in pulling
• 30:44
  those things out. Did you feel like you had too
• 30:47
  much data in your process, your personal process, or like you
• 30:51
  were being overcome by numbers and metrics and things like
• 30:55
  that? Yeah, I mean, I wore the Pulse
• 30:57
  strap and I love Pulse. Like a lot of my athletes use
• 30:59
  it. Yet again, if they have it,
• 31:01
  we're using it. If you have the resources, we're
• 31:02
  using it. But yeah, I started to kind of
• 31:06
  define myself by numbers in a lot of ways, and my daily life
• 31:11
  was constantly checking my Excel spreadsheet tracker for myself.
• 31:16
  Where was my external rotation? Passively on the table today
• 31:19
  with my physical therapy. You know what I mean?
• 31:21
  My life started to become a bunch of charts, which by the
• 31:27
  way, matter. And we do that like they, we, we
• 31:31
  literally do that. My athletes love you guys.
• 31:33
  I know they're gonna listen to this.
• 31:34
  A lot of you guys behind the scenes are where, where's your
• 31:37
  chart? Where are you?
• 31:39
  Like what, what are your numbers right now?
• 31:41
  What numbers do we want to be in a month?
• 31:43
  Right? It matters.
• 31:44
  It's just that you have to separate yourself.
• 31:47
  Like you, you have to separate yourself.
• 31:49
  Thanksgiving's coming up. These guys are off.
• 31:52
  If they think about the word baseball on that day, it's like
• 31:55
  I'm going to be upset with them. I think that's, yeah, my, my
• 31:59
  identity slowly started to become what my external rotation
• 32:04
  degrees were and what my arm care app was saying.
• 32:07
  And I love that stuff. I'm a nerd for that stuff.
• 32:09
  I geek out about it. But I kind of lost sight of the
• 32:13
  fact that, hey, my shoulder still hurts.
• 32:15
  So that was kind of where I was at in my process.
• 32:18
  It is kind of funny for me personally to hear you say that
• 32:23
  because my own labor return felt like the exact opposite.
• 32:29
  I was chasing so much data and so much information, and I felt
• 32:33
  like I couldn't get it anywhere. There's no real, like, major
• 32:37
  response here, like a question coming back to you.
• 32:40
  It's just astonishing to me that five years apart is when was
• 32:46
  your surgery? 2 1/2 years ago, right?
• 32:50
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, you were. 2022-2023 was
• 32:54
  your process. Yeah.
• 32:56
  Yeah. In mine was.
• 32:58
  The surgery was July of 2015. And really I rehabbed until
• 33:05
  February of 2018, when I ultimately called it quits on
• 33:09
  baseball. To think that it was so vastly
• 33:13
  different just a few years apart is crazy to me.
• 33:19
  That granted, you were at UNC Charlotte, a place that does
• 33:23
  have some pretty good resources and mine is at the tail end of a
• 33:26
  college baseball career. And then trying to figure a lot
• 33:28
  of a lot of it out of my own. But even getting access to a
• 33:32
  radar gun was hard. So maybe maybe that's something
• 33:35
  that you even have a different pulse on.
• 33:39
  Sorry to use the word pulse there, but you have a different
• 33:42
  feel for because of just the timing of when this happened for
• 33:48
  you. Like for me, I, I chased data
• 33:50
  for so long versus you, you probably were inundated with it
• 33:54
  and you just need to be like, whoa, this is a lot.
• 33:57
  It's fun to play video games, but I am not your video game.
• 34:00
  I should probably back away for just a moment.
• 34:04
  I think we're products of our environment, you know, and I
• 34:06
  think that's just kind of how it is.
• 34:08
  And it goes to show you that like Labrum specifically is it's
• 34:11
  fascinating how people respond because when you and I spoke
• 34:15
  behind the scenes prior for other people listen to this.
• 34:17
  Well, you can share it, don't worry.
• 34:18
  We, we and I were laughing because like we just went
• 34:21
  through our process together. Like our pain was different, our
• 34:24
  throwing process was different. Every step of the way was just
• 34:27
  the complete opposite, right? And not only does that go to
• 34:30
  show you just how much has changed in just a matter of like
• 34:32
  a few years, but it goes to show you just how various this
• 34:35
  process can be. It's not as tricky cutters
• 34:40
  people think and there's just a lot of ups and downs.
• 34:42
  You and I had a complete different mindset how we were
• 34:45
  thinking about it, right, So much less the physical side of
• 34:47
  it. So I think that's just what's so
• 34:49
  tricky about it. But I do think, yeah, it comes
• 34:52
  down to like products of our environment.
• 34:54
  Like Charlotte was fantastic. I owe those guys like
• 34:57
  everything. The resources were unbelievable,
• 35:00
  the work ethics were unbelievable.
• 35:01
  My coaching staff was unbelievable.
• 35:04
  They were by my side the entire I ended up looking at them and I
• 35:06
  sat down. I was like, I want to write my
• 35:09
  own trying program and they were like, go for it.
• 35:12
  Like they, they were just so supportive of like the whole
• 35:15
  thing. So I was very blessed in that
• 35:17
  regard. Where I see it with my athletes,
• 35:19
  not a lot of athletes have that kind of support, whether it's
• 35:23
  with teammates or coaching staff or physical therapists or
• 35:26
  surgeons or whatever it is. So that that goes down to
• 35:28
  another thing was just like, yeah, like there, there is a lot
• 35:31
  of luck involved. I was lucky.
• 35:33
  So I I admit that publicly. But yeah, you and I were the
• 35:35
  opposite. It is worth calling out again
• 35:38
  what you said way earlier in the process of this conversation
• 35:42
  today. You were opened up and now
• 35:45
  you're back trying to throw again.
• 35:47
  You're going through hardship. Like that's tough.
• 35:50
  You can you can get through it. If you were able to do that and
• 35:53
  even pick up a ball again, that's amazing.
• 35:56
  Talking about these different processes now that athletes have
• 36:00
  to go through, because you were opened up and you, things were
• 36:03
  moved around, things were tied down.
• 36:05
  It's no longer your natural anatomy and Physiology at that
• 36:09
  point. I mean, you, you have a tendon
• 36:12
  for a UCL surgery. You have a tendon graph that was
• 36:15
  pulled from somewhere else in your body and placed either over
• 36:20
  where your previous UCL was tied to your previous UCL.
• 36:24
  It's really an insane process. So yeah, all of our bodies are
• 36:27
  going to respond differently. Then your musculature was
• 36:30
  affected differently in the process because everybody has
• 36:33
  their own biases that enabled them to perform and be unique,
• 36:37
  whether it's people that can go left to right with the baseball.
• 36:41
  I know you talked about in one of your videos how you hated
• 36:45
  long toss because you're a supinator and the the ball was
• 36:48
  just going to cut like crazy or you're going to seem shifted
• 36:51
  every time you tried to throw it far.
• 36:53
  For for me, I had really high spin efficiency to the point
• 36:58
  that everything was just arm side, but it was all crazy arm
• 37:02
  side carry. So sorry, first baseman throwing
• 37:04
  the ball across the diamond. I was putting you in harm's way
• 37:07
  with the runner coming down, but it was just going to be backspin
• 37:09
  arm side just flying off to the right.
• 37:12
  So those things change how you're going to respond in the
• 37:17
  rehab process. It really is so individualized.
• 37:20
  And I just wanted to make sure I stress that point.
• 37:23
  You mentioned it earlier, you mentioned it again there how
• 37:26
  different our processes were. And yes, that was two different
• 37:29
  shoulder surgeries, but we we can take that sentiment and
• 37:32
  apply it to the elbow as well. And I'll actually touch on,
• 37:36
  like, the kind of anatomical side of it where, yeah, I don't
• 37:39
  think a lot of times people realize just how unbelievable,
• 37:43
  like, unreal it is to take a tendon out or take something out
• 37:47
  of your body and put something in and then close it up and then
• 37:50
  just like, act like everything's normal again.
• 37:53
  And then trust that that tendon is going to go through a
• 37:55
  ligamatization process and become a ligament in 18 to 24
• 37:59
  months. I think, I think I talked about
• 38:02
  this on my TikTok. I said stay off TikTok, but I, I
• 38:04
  made a post on TikTok the other day or like a few weeks ago
• 38:07
  where I said like, listen, man, like social media has made
• 38:11
  people so numb to what a surgery is nowadays.
• 38:16
  Like everybody's blown out and it's God awful.
• 38:19
  It's an epidemic and scars are normal.
• 38:22
  Scars were normal on my staff. Everybody's had like a history
• 38:26
  with it. And it's kind of just insane to
• 38:29
  me how often it's going on to the point where I'll actually
• 38:32
  get into the whole like labrum isn't real thing.
• 38:35
  Actually a lot of people like it's been it's been cool.
• 38:41
  It's cool. Yes and no, it's been cool.
• 38:42
  Yes and no. I have athletes follow me and I
• 38:45
  have no idea who they are and I checked their bio because I'm
• 38:47
  just snooping and it'll say labrum isn't real in the bio and
• 38:51
  I'm just like, this is awesome. Like you know, it's just
• 38:52
  amazing. Then I'll have some athletes DM
• 38:55
  me and be like, what do you mean it's not real?
• 38:57
  Like mine really hurts. So like I just don't really
• 39:00
  know. I just don't really know how to
• 39:01
  respond to that part. But I will talk about the whole
• 39:04
  like isn't real thing. And a really interesting thing
• 39:07
  in our initial eval call that we do with my guys is I ask them if
• 39:12
  they have any pictures of their surgical procedure or of them in
• 39:16
  a sling. And I tell them to put it down,
• 39:19
  hide it in the folder. You don't got to delete them.
• 39:21
  You can save them for 40 years online.
• 39:23
  But I tell them to turn it off and to stop looking at it
• 39:28
  because yet again, let's just call a spade a spade.
• 39:30
  These guys aren't surgeons. I'm not a surgeon.
• 39:33
  It might be like cool sometimes, but like, don't look at yourself
• 39:36
  under the knife. Like don't do that.
• 39:38
  Like just stop doing that. Because if we are going to get
• 39:41
  into this conversation of we want to return to play at a rate
• 39:45
  stronger than we were prior and we won't, we want to forget that
• 39:48
  we had surgery. You actually have to try and
• 39:50
  truly forget, which means you can't just constantly stare at
• 39:53
  pictures of your elbow cut open and just your, your brain starts
• 39:57
  to visualize that and it starts to see what's going on inside
• 40:00
  and it's disgusting and. It's ingrained in your brain at
• 40:03
  that point, right? So I tell my guys, and I truly
• 40:07
  do this in our first call. I, one of my first questions is
• 40:09
  like, do you have a picture of yourself with your arm cut open?
• 40:13
  And I tell them to put it away. And that's something that I did
• 40:15
  in my, in my process and I, I truly did abide by it in two
• 40:19
  years of rehabilitation, the only time I slipped up, the only
• 40:23
  time where I actually had to remember that I had surgery was
• 40:27
  people would ask me like, hey, Cass, like, you know, how's the
• 40:29
  shoulder today? And I'm, I'm in a sling, right?
• 40:32
  And I'd be like, what do you mean?
• 40:34
  What shoulder? You know, I'd play dumb and I
• 40:36
  truly try and trick myself. I was mainly bored being in a
• 40:39
  sling. I couldn't do anything.
• 40:40
  But one time, one time one of my one of my trainers was like,
• 40:45
  hey, Cass, like you got to sign this.
• 40:46
  It's like insurance stuff, the surgery and like cortisone stop
• 40:50
  shots in the past, like you just got to sign this information.
• 40:53
  And I looked at her and I was like, I signed what?
• 40:55
  I was like, I didn't have surgery.
• 40:56
  And she was like, well, you need to sign it or they're going to
• 40:58
  charge you a lot of money. And I was like, all right, give
• 40:59
  me the pen. I signed it in like 2 seconds.
• 41:03
  But yeah, I truly do believe in if we're going to tell our
• 41:06
  athletes like, hey, you got to forget, you got to cut open.
• 41:08
  I make them delete pictures. I really do do that.
• 41:11
  I did want to interject and I held my tongue.
• 41:13
  Just because you were cooking, it elicits A trauma response.
• 41:17
  It really is that simple. Every time you think about it,
• 41:20
  every time you look at it, it is something that you went through.
• 41:23
  I don't know if you have been in a car crash.
• 41:27
  I've been unfortunately been in a couple, but there's a reason
• 41:31
  that people become hesitant to get back in a car if they've
• 41:35
  been in a car crash. There is trauma associated with
• 41:38
  that. So if you have hurt your elbow,
• 41:40
  if you have hurt your arm, and then you go to grab a baseball
• 41:44
  and you got hurt throwing a baseball, there's some sort of
• 41:47
  trauma response associated with that.
• 41:49
  So yeah, I totally support what you're saying there.
• 41:52
  It is difficult, but you have to try to create some sort of a
• 41:55
  divide or understand, like you have to teach yourself in some
• 41:59
  capacity that this is OK. This this gave you joy.
• 42:05
  Don't let the same thing that gave you joy now be the thing
• 42:08
  that gives you pain. I completely agree and the
• 42:11
  brains too powerful by the way. It's it's too strong.
• 42:15
  I mean it's so strong you can listen to a song and it'll bring
• 42:17
  you back 20 years ago to when you first heard it.
• 42:20
  That's just how the brain is. So I think about surgery the
• 42:23
  same way in the sense of I'm a huge Square 1 system fan love.
• 42:27
  OK, very cool, love. Love their stuff and it was done
• 42:31
  on me and my process and I was super thankful just to be a part
• 42:34
  of that experience and just to learn about it cuz I think it's
• 42:37
  the new wave. It's blowing up right now, but
• 42:39
  like I think I love square 1 entirely.
• 42:41
  And I remember crazy things where like my range of motion
• 42:45
  would increase, like when I would take my hat off or like
• 42:49
  take my glove off because my brain just associates glove and
• 42:53
  hat with, oh, Cass is going to throw a baseball today.
• 42:56
  Cast throwing a baseball equals my shoulder hurts equals we're
• 43:00
  going to walk up. It's fascinating.
• 43:02
  Just just things that the, the, the brain will force you to kind
• 43:06
  of go through. But yeah, the, the, the trauma
• 43:09
  aspect is, I think, very overlooked.
• 43:12
  And I think it goes back to, you know, this recurring thing we've
• 43:14
  talked about on this call where it's like people just forget how
• 43:17
  ridiculous getting a surgery is. I think that's what it is.
• 43:20
  It's very unnatural. That's why the brain honestly
• 43:23
  hates it so much. I'm going to take the risk of
• 43:27
  making a really crappy Segway here, but you're probably a good
• 43:32
  person to talk to about this given your history with DAC and
• 43:35
  now what you do on your own. And just what I've seen is the
• 43:38
  utilization of impulses. And one thing that's been very
• 43:43
  valuable for me, whether it's my own training or working with
• 43:47
  athletes or making suggestions or recommendations, is utilizing
• 43:52
  impulses to get comfortable with an action.
• 43:56
  Again, that that's been a massive breakthrough on my end
• 44:01
  or I feel where athletes are making a lot of breakthroughs.
• 44:05
  Of course, you can apply it in different ways.
• 44:07
  You can utilize impulses for different things, but an athlete
• 44:11
  who hasn't spent a lot of time doing valgus loaded activities
• 44:16
  or working from external rotation to internal rotation,
• 44:19
  whether it's at their side or with arm up, going through kind
• 44:24
  of like a ball release phase. I think it's been very impactful
• 44:28
  for guys to just get comfortable doing that action again over and
• 44:32
  over and over and over without the stress or the magnitude in
• 44:37
  their brain of throwing a baseball.
• 44:39
  I guess building both the mental endurance of this or the mental
• 44:43
  fortitude associated with this action as well as the actual
• 44:47
  physiological response. I just wanted to bring up my own
• 44:51
  experience with it where I've seen positive outcomes, and then
• 44:55
  open the floodgates for you to talk about impulses in general.
• 44:59
  Now that they've kind of become a hot topic among the industry.
• 45:05
  It's moved beyond just a few people that make the joke of
• 45:08
  saying let me do a set of 100 Tommy Johns real quick to
• 45:13
  actually people understanding what impulses can provide.
• 45:18
  Use the word floodgates. So stop me if I go on a tangent.
• 45:21
  One of my athletes asked me about him yesterday and that's
• 45:24
  my opinion on him. And I'll start with DAC yet
• 45:27
  again. That dude.
• 45:28
  I owe that dude like so much. I just like things as simple as
• 45:32
  like I can drive without my arm hurting anymore.
• 45:35
  I couldn't do that post op. So that dude got my pain to go
• 45:38
  away. And he he thinks so differently
• 45:41
  in the sense where it's it's hard for him to explain exactly
• 45:45
  what's going on. And that's a that's a compliment
• 45:47
  in the sense where I only do impulses that he created.
• 45:52
  That is in in my training in my database.
• 45:55
  The only variations that my athletes do are things that he
• 46:00
  has done and I give him credit for it.
• 46:02
  So anything else I see online could be classified as an
• 46:05
  impulse. I disregard it.
• 46:07
  It's not added to our video database.
• 46:09
  And the only reason why is just because very ignorant comment
• 46:12
  out of me, but I went through it and I know what it feels like.
• 46:15
  That's the only reason why. So I'll answer the impulse
• 46:18
  question. Like physical slash anatomical.
• 46:20
  And then there's like a mental kind of side of it and talked
• 46:22
  about this yesterday with one of my athletes.
• 46:24
  But the the physical side of it reminds me a lot of when you and
• 46:29
  I were in a sling and we're doing shoulder isometrics for
• 46:32
  two sets of 20 seconds into a wall for the first time.
• 46:35
  Take out a sling and we're like this and we're just kind of
• 46:37
  pushing into the wall, you know, just like that.
• 46:40
  And we're just kind of driving in and we're just giving it
• 46:42
  force acceptance, right? I think an impulse is the exact
• 46:46
  same thing. It's just done much later post
• 46:49
  op for the most part. And it's done at a higher
• 46:51
  intensity with a higher volume. It is not done in an
• 46:54
  extraordinary range of motion. I've seen athletes make horrible
• 46:58
  mistakes on social media where they do a full on pitching
• 47:02
  motion as hard as they can. And that's where the Tommy John
• 47:05
  meme comes out of. And I'm just like, dude, take it
• 47:07
  from me guys, I was with DAC. That's not in the database.
• 47:11
  He doesn't do that. I'm just going to tell you right
• 47:13
  now, he doesn't do that. A lot of what the impulses are
• 47:16
  are these short rapid burst force acceptance actions, just
• 47:21
  quick little twitch movements. We're just knocking sensation
• 47:25
  into it over and over and over again.
• 47:28
  A lot different than a shoulder isometric early post op, where a
• 47:32
  lot of the times post op, those Isos are these long 20 to 32nd
• 47:35
  Isos where we're just kind of holding it there.
• 47:37
  Impulses are these brief half second bursts where we're just
• 47:41
  going into it consistently, right.
• 47:43
  In terms of like a anatomical sort of theory that I have for
• 47:48
  it. I, I have theories where after
• 47:51
  surgery it's very hard for athletes to regain like the word
• 47:55
  feel or control over a movement. Sometimes it's very difficult to
• 48:00
  engage your scaps. It's very difficult to feel your
• 48:05
  external rotation working with the posterior shoulder.
• 48:07
  It's it's it's hard for you to reactivate these neural
• 48:11
  connections that you used to have to the body and I I do
• 48:15
  think there's something there with the impulses.
• 48:17
  I can't prove it on paper. I can't I think somebody will
• 48:20
  with the next five years, I think information is going to
• 48:22
  come out on it, but I think there's something there where it
• 48:25
  helps re establish this neural connection through the tissue.
• 48:29
  That's what I think's happening Nerdy is I can sound there.
• 48:32
  I, I do think that these rapid short bursts are telling the
• 48:37
  body over and over and over again to regain feel.
• 48:41
  This is how it's done. This is what elbow flexion is.
• 48:43
  Flex, flex, flex, flex, flex thousands of times until it
• 48:47
  tells itself how to do it again. That's what I think's happening.
• 48:50
  I don't know though, I'll be honest.
• 48:53
  I have no theories. I have AI have a client that is
• 48:58
  in a master's level education. He's testing impulses with like
• 49:01
  grip strength, like a lot of wrist impulses.
• 49:03
  He's doing it for his master's degree and it's like an actual
• 49:07
  study that he's got his his name on.
• 49:09
  So we'll see when that gets posted.
• 49:11
  But other than that, my leading theory is just do a small joint
• 49:15
  movement over and over and over and over again so that your
• 49:18
  brain can remember how to do it. That's what I think's happening.
• 49:20
  Does all that make sense? That was weird.
• 49:22
  I know I was, I was, you can tell.
• 49:24
  I've thought you can tell that I stay up and I wake up in a sweat
• 49:29
  and I'm just like pulses. I wake up in a sweat and I'm
• 49:33
  just doing hinged out impulses as a sleepwalker.
• 49:36
  It's just it's, you know, it's just, that's just how I am, so.
• 49:39
  Yeah, well, I, I sleep doing external rotation impulses on my
• 49:44
  back, just slamming it into my bed.
• 49:46
  I I just wanted your take. It was really that simple
• 49:49
  because it is an area that has not been vastly researched at
• 49:54
  this point. But what we have is a large
• 49:58
  group of individuals who have had success from implementing
• 50:03
  these exercises. Then we get into the causation
• 50:07
  correlation discussion and like how, how can we tell someone
• 50:12
  that this is not a good idea or you shouldn't do this just
• 50:17
  because there's no formal research on it.
• 50:19
  But we could go look at someone and say, well, he had success,
• 50:23
  he had success, she had success, they had success.
• 50:27
  Just and run through all these cases where individuals were
• 50:31
  able to regain the quote UN quote feel or regain the quote
• 50:34
  UN quote control that they might not have had previously.
• 50:38
  Or then we could even take it a step further and say, well,
• 50:41
  their actual shoulder dynamometry numbers improved
• 50:46
  from doing this. We increased internal rotation
• 50:49
  strength or external rotation strength, all these different
• 50:52
  things that do correlate to increased on field performance
• 50:59
  or at least increased health. It's, it's a weird world.
• 51:04
  I'm glad it's being discussed more.
• 51:06
  It's truthfully not something I understood fully.
• 51:09
  I mean, I don't understand fully much like you said, you, you
• 51:13
  were a part of it and you don't understand it fully.
• 51:15
  I've observed, I've tried, I continue to iterate my own
• 51:19
  processes with these things. It's just kind of this blue
• 51:24
  ocean. As you said, there's probably
• 51:25
  going to be a time where we have harder data associated with it.
• 51:28
  I'm also in discussions with someone that's working on
• 51:32
  getting a study published. For all I know, it's the same
• 51:35
  guy that we're talking about. Just such a unique topic that
• 51:39
  I'm sure there's probably a few people that were waiting for
• 51:42
  that conversation. Yet again, I don't like, I don't
• 51:46
  like people that like always just speak from experience
• 51:49
  because everybody's experiences are different and we are
• 51:53
  products of our environment and you and I went through very
• 51:55
  different things, right? But for all it's worth, I've
• 51:58
  talked to my family about this and my, my dad and I agree that
• 52:01
  if we could go back and do all of it over again.
• 52:04
  I, I started training with DAC nine months post op because I
• 52:07
  was just lost and I just started then if I could do it all over
• 52:11
  again, I wish I'd met him Daisy or I didn't know who he was
• 52:14
  Daisy. I didn't know who he was until I
• 52:16
  was about 8 months post op. Yet again, that's not a study
• 52:19
  that has nothing to do with data.
• 52:22
  I could show you a lot of my guys who are pain free, which is
• 52:24
  nice. Like I could definitely post
• 52:26
  those guys and you know that they have some great
• 52:28
  testimonials for me. But in my personal experience,
• 52:31
  yeah, if I could do it all over again, I would have done DAC day
• 52:33
  zero, which means impulses earlier.
• 52:37
  Now I will I will add this, I will add this part because I, I
• 52:41
  I've talked about my severity with surgery a lot.
• 52:44
  I've met 2 athletes in my life that had 10 anchors as well.
• 52:48
  So I've I've met two other people.
• 52:50
  Both of them worked with me. Both of them did not have pain
• 52:54
  in their return to throw process and they never shut the ball
• 52:57
  down. They both worked with DAC around
• 52:59
  months 3 to 5 post op basically start throwing about 5 and a
• 53:06
  half six months out they started with me.
• 53:09
  I will say this and I I will say this proudly.
• 53:13
  They both returned to play once an outfielder, the same velocity
• 53:17
  they were prior. On top of that, they did not
• 53:20
  have pain and they never had a shutdown with it.
• 53:23
  I combined a lot of what I did with the Impulses with Deck with
• 53:26
  a lot of square 1 theories. I will say that yet again, huge
• 53:30
  advocate for square one. A lot of what I did with the
• 53:34
  Impulses was bringing awareness to the shoulder first, like
• 53:38
  touching scars. That's what I was told to do
• 53:41
  when I was going through some square 1 stuff.
• 53:42
  I was very fortunate to get some stuff like like they would make
• 53:45
  me take my hands and touch my literal incisions and bring
• 53:50
  awareness to it. And then I would proceed with my
• 53:54
  rehab. And obviously my rehab was DAC.
• 53:56
  So I was doing this crazy combo of weird square one CNS reset
• 54:02
  research with incisions to bringing awareness to my
• 54:06
  shoulder, then impulses on top of it.
• 54:09
  Yet again, I have no idea if I'm that did anything, but it worked
• 54:13
  for me and it worked for two other 10 anchor guys.
• 54:15
  Basically, I think I'm saying in five to 10 years, I'm really
• 54:17
  excited to see impulses expand more and I'm excited to see
• 54:21
  actual like credible, like Stone Cold, just research that can
• 54:25
  give us some information about what's actually happening.
• 54:28
  That's number one and #2 love square 1.
• 54:30
  They're blowing up and I will continue to follow their stuff
• 54:34
  as they grow because there's something there as well.
• 54:36
  I think both of those things in combination together, I truly do
• 54:39
  believe in 5-10 years they will be incorporated in a lot of
• 54:42
  rehabilitation processes for anyone.
• 54:44
  I truly stand by that. I want to make another shift
• 54:48
  here, actually calling back to something that you brought up
• 54:51
  earlier. You mentioned you are a
• 54:53
  proponent of overload implements in the rehab process and
• 54:59
  thankfully not quite as hot a topic as it once was, but I want
• 55:05
  again to give you the mic to discuss why you are.
• 55:09
  So I don't really want to say adamant about using overload
• 55:13
  implements, but also why you're passionate about it and where
• 55:17
  you think the value comes from. Yeah, I'll talk mainly with the
• 55:21
  labrum answer. I'm going to start with the
• 55:24
  labrum answer of when you get labrum surgery, you are
• 55:29
  typically going to lose like 5 to 15° of ER passable.
• 55:35
  It varies like I was locked up. It's just all over the place,
• 55:38
  right? But you will lose external
• 55:41
  rotation for the most part. That's just how it is.
• 55:43
  You're going to get tightened up capsules tight, right?
• 55:45
  I like throwing overload weighted balls in a football
• 55:49
  because I think doing that prior to getting into a baseball gets
• 55:53
  you into a deeper range of motion of the scaps with
• 55:56
  retraction. And on top of the fact that you
• 55:58
  literally will just typically respond well throwing an
• 56:02
  overload weighted ball, I have athletes that pull down a six
• 56:04
  ounce harder and they pull down a 5 oz just because they get
• 56:07
  into better positions. Sometimes it's just how it is.
• 56:09
  So I do it for that aspect of I want their layback to be as
• 56:13
  clean as possible. I don't want it sticky.
• 56:16
  I don't want it pushy. I want them when they throw a
• 56:19
  blue plyo. I want them to naturally accept
• 56:21
  lay back. I think we can all agree in
• 56:23
  modern baseball now, plyos used to be kind of just hated on for
• 56:27
  10 years and now they're incorporated in every college
• 56:30
  baseball facility basically in America.
• 56:32
  So use them for that aspect. The mental aspect yet again and
• 56:36
  there's always something challenging my guys is going
• 56:38
  back to how our brain has these trauma incident factors.
• 56:44
  A lot of the time athletes when they tear their shoulder, their
• 56:48
  elbow up, you know, they're pitching in a game and they RIP
• 56:50
  a slider and something pops, they're throwing an actual
• 56:53
  baseball. I love throwing a football and I
• 56:55
  love throwing plies before we get into the baseball because
• 56:58
  yet again, it's just another just little trick that I
• 57:00
  personally believe in where avoid the the the trauma 5 oz
• 57:03
  baseball for a second and just throw a football and just just
• 57:06
  breathe and just have fun and be athletic with it.
• 57:10
  And then we'll transition into a baseball after that once they
• 57:12
  kind of accept like, Hey, this is how I'm supposed to throw
• 57:15
  again, right, Which we'll actually I will touch on
• 57:17
  briefly. I've had really cool
• 57:19
  conversations with, very blessed to talk with like some awesome
• 57:23
  just surgeons and PTS in the industry where they've seen
• 57:25
  crazy things and I believe it in as well.
• 57:27
  We're like athletes that tore their shoulder throwing a pitch
• 57:31
  sometimes have a lot more pain post op than athletes that just
• 57:35
  tore it from like a collision injury.
• 57:37
  Like football players that just dove and just bang it up and
• 57:40
  then they got their capsule tightened.
• 57:42
  Sometimes those guys handle it a lot better physically and
• 57:44
  mentally than guys who are like ripping a slider in a game and
• 57:47
  it pops. These guys fear the slider.
• 57:49
  These guys have that trauma, right?
• 57:51
  Just something I just wanted touch on there.
• 57:53
  I've noticed it with my guys as well so.
• 57:55
  I I'm glad you touched on the weighted ball piece, definitely
• 57:58
  wanted to get into that because there there is enough research
• 58:02
  to show that a weighted ball is actually less stressful on the
• 58:08
  arm as opposed to more stressful.
• 58:10
  Yes, there are other things associated with it where we may
• 58:13
  be increasing lay back, we may be increasing range of motion.
• 58:17
  So we we can't just throw weighted balls for quote UN
• 58:20
  quote arm strength, which I think there was enough mis
• 58:24
  education in the industry for a while where people were truly
• 58:28
  marketing throwing weighted balls as weight training for the
• 58:32
  arm. That is not the case.
• 58:35
  All we are doing is you said that we can kind of pick and
• 58:38
  choose our words. And I don't want to put words in
• 58:40
  your mouth here, but we are conditioning ourselves to work
• 58:44
  to a baseball and ultimately get better at the skill of throwing.
• 58:49
  I know you said in a video recently that you're not a big
• 58:52
  fan of the word constraint, but we can use it here or this is
• 58:56
  where I would use it. It provides another constraint
• 58:59
  in the process or another implement or a task that we have
• 59:03
  to overcome to perform the art of throwing or the act of
• 59:07
  throwing. And this is just another tool in
• 59:10
  the process to get the athlete better at what we ultimately
• 59:14
  want to do, which is perform again and perform well.
• 59:19
  So yeah, just had to bring up the weighted balls.
• 59:21
  I, I came, here's a phrase that I hate full circle, because
• 59:26
  normally when people say they've come full circle on something,
• 59:28
  they usually come half circle. So this is something that I've
• 59:31
  come half circle on because I was a massive hater of weighted
• 59:38
  balls for the longest time because I, yeah, was hand up.
• 59:43
  Sorry everyone, sorry. I'm willing to admit it, and I'm
• 59:47
  willing to say I grew. I I became a better.
• 59:50
  Man with weighted baseball. Yeah, I became a better man, OK.
• 59:54
  But yeah, the reason was I was so committed to the research or
• 59:59
  the literature that I read enough studies that showed guys
• 1:00:04
  got hurt doing weighted baseball training or there was this
• 1:00:07
  increased risk of injury associated with it.
• 1:00:10
  So me idiotically not looking at methods or the decisions that
• 1:00:14
  were made in a. Pull down program of unprepared
• 1:00:20
  high school kids that were just given these set of weighted
• 1:00:24
  balls and say go throw all of these two ounce to 2 lbs as hard
• 1:00:28
  as you possibly can. Me taking that as gospel and
• 1:00:32
  saying weighted balls hurt people not understanding the
• 1:00:34
  true purpose that they serve, which is why I said I came half
• 1:00:38
  circle on weighted balls. Well said.
• 1:00:41
  Good terminology man. I remember I graduated high
• 1:00:43
  school 2019. I remember I was the only one
• 1:00:46
  throwing like playas and stuff and weighted baseballs anything.
• 1:00:49
  I was the only one doing it. Now everybody's got them.
• 1:00:51
  And when I asked an athlete what they have access to for
• 1:00:53
  materials, every single athlete has some sort of Jada baseball
• 1:00:58
  around them. It really, it really is just a
• 1:01:00
  part of it's like cell phones now.
• 1:01:02
  It's just integrated in the in the baseball world, Like
• 1:01:05
  everybody's got one. Yeah.
• 1:01:06
  I love, I loved him because last time you and I spoke, I I was a
• 1:01:09
  huge driveline baseball YouTube guy back in the day.
• 1:01:12
  I I loved their pull down videos and I was I was doing what you
• 1:01:17
  just said. I was that high school kid that
• 1:01:19
  just like blindly did pull downs like with no training.
• 1:01:22
  But I had no idea what 6 oz even was.
• 1:01:25
  I had no idea. Loved it though, it was fun so.
• 1:01:29
  Another hand up moment here. A lot of it for me actually
• 1:01:32
  stemmed from a point of competitive jealousy when
• 1:01:36
  driveline blew up back in kind of the 2016 to 2019.
• 1:01:42
  So their first big exposure to the industry were like, whoa,
• 1:01:45
  those people are doing something different.
• 1:01:47
  So basically like you said, you saw some YouTube videos and
• 1:01:50
  really go, well, I want to do that too.
• 1:01:53
  For me, I had read enough research to know that their
• 1:01:57
  basic training or basic principles came from coop duren
• 1:02:02
  study in 1994. Throwing 4 oz and six ounce
• 1:02:05
  baseballs. Given this time frame, I was at
• 1:02:10
  the tail end of college, in grad school or fresh out of college
• 1:02:13
  and I am jealous that somebody has taken something that they
• 1:02:19
  could freely do with a tennis ball and a softball and turn it
• 1:02:23
  into a system and marketed it and created a whole training
• 1:02:28
  philosophy around it. Like bro, this is literally some
• 1:02:33
  dude from Hawaii's study, like and and now you're selling this
• 1:02:37
  to people. So I was jealous, I was mad.
• 1:02:39
  And then I was looking for every reason that it was wrong at that
• 1:02:43
  point. Like I said, probably a point of
• 1:02:45
  jealousy because I didn't think I could do that or I didn't
• 1:02:48
  think to do that, I should say. That's fair.
• 1:02:51
  Yeah, I did. It's such a simple thing, just
• 1:02:54
  like throw, like a. And they made, hey, they made
• 1:02:56
  them colorful, though. They made them cool colors and
• 1:02:58
  that sells. You got to give them credit
• 1:03:00
  there, man, that that pink Plio man.
• 1:03:02
  It's a pretty Playa. It's a pretty Playa.
• 1:03:04
  It's, it's a gory. Love that thing I always got,
• 1:03:07
  Yeah. So there is, I think, one more
• 1:03:11
  thing for us to get into here as we kind of shift maybe to the
• 1:03:15
  lighter side at the tail end of the process today.
• 1:03:19
  Memes, the topic of memes. You have a decent poll in the
• 1:03:26
  social media world, at least our end of baseball rehab and return
• 1:03:29
  to throw. You're tossing some great memes
• 1:03:31
  around other tremendous memers in the industry.
• 1:03:35
  We have Terry Phillips who is excellent.
• 1:03:38
  I got to give him a shout out. If we're talking about memes in
• 1:03:40
  the baseball world, what kind of brought you to that that side of
• 1:03:44
  the social media world? Is it just still being a kid at
• 1:03:47
  heart? I know you're still in the
• 1:03:49
  younger side of things, but just yeah, it's an easy way to share
• 1:03:52
  information. It's fun and everyone should get
• 1:03:54
  a good laugh out of it. I can't believe you actually
• 1:03:56
  brought this up. Yeah, I texted.
• 1:03:58
  I texted him. I texted Adam before and I was
• 1:04:00
  like, hey, what are we going to talk about?
• 1:04:02
  He's like, I'll bring up memes at some point.
• 1:04:04
  That was unbelievable. I wasn't kidding y'all.
• 1:04:07
  We always got to get into the fun stuff.
• 1:04:08
  We can talk about all the deep dive in the weeds rabbit hole,
• 1:04:13
  other colloquial phrase about digging up dirt on things all
• 1:04:18
  the time. But we got to talk about what
• 1:04:21
  the people want. And that's your face on a little
• 1:04:24
  Rick and Morty animation talking about trying to give show.
• 1:04:28
  Hey Otani or Paul Skeens throwing program.
• 1:04:30
  I was. I took a shot with that one.
• 1:04:32
  You never know. If he's, he might respond.
• 1:04:34
  You never know. But yeah, good, good memes.
• 1:04:38
  They take way too much time. A lot of my apps.
• 1:04:42
  Yeah. What's the ROI on those things?
• 1:04:44
  You should see the way like the comments on the post mean
• 1:04:48
  nothing when my athletes text me.
• 1:04:51
  It is the most hilarious thing in the world when they they'll
• 1:04:55
  send me like cuz some of them are like teammates together.
• 1:04:58
  So they'll like like watch them there.
• 1:04:59
  It's awesome. But yeah, you know, I'll throw
• 1:05:01
  them in there every once in a while cuz my Instagram is very
• 1:05:04
  like one of my, one of my athletes told me my Instagram
• 1:05:08
  was pretty dark at times. It's very, it's very like it's
• 1:05:11
  injury awareness and like the dangers of social media and
• 1:05:15
  stuff like that. So there is the goal of
• 1:05:18
  education and you know, I, I care about the community, blah,
• 1:05:21
  blah, blah, like the very compassionate element there.
• 1:05:23
  And then sometimes I'm just like, all right, let's just take
• 1:05:25
  my face and put it on Vince Vaughn saying something stupid
• 1:05:30
  from a movie and let's just post it and see what happens.
• 1:05:32
  So yeah, I like to mix it up every once in a while.
• 1:05:35
  A lot of the times, if you haven't noticed, I take shots at
• 1:05:38
  a good old BBC. I'm not getting into that.
• 1:05:40
  But yeah, I take some shots, some peptide usage.
• 1:05:43
  I'm not getting into that on this, on this call.
• 1:05:45
  But you know, I like to make it fun because, you know, you're
• 1:05:50
  right. If I am going to have this image
• 1:05:52
  of like, listen guys, you sign up here, we're going to keep it
• 1:05:55
  fun and this is going to be carefree and we're going to
• 1:05:57
  forget that we ever got hurt. If I am going to actually preach
• 1:06:00
  that, might as well act like it. Yeah, might as well practice it
• 1:06:04
  too. Might as well practice what I
• 1:06:05
  preach. But in reality, I just watch
• 1:06:07
  Rick and Morty and I find something that I'm like, yeah,
• 1:06:09
  let's use that, let's use it. That's what I do, yeah.
• 1:06:14
  So now as we have made our way to what I presume is the end of
• 1:06:19
  the discussion today, do you feel there's anything that we
• 1:06:22
  missed or anything that you want to get off your chest?
• 1:06:25
  I will have you share all your social medias to make sure the
• 1:06:28
  people know but before we get to the social media tagging
• 1:06:32
  anything else. I don't know, we're just talking
• 1:06:35
  about memes, so I got to always keep it funny, but I will, I
• 1:06:37
  will just say and I, I do mean it for anybody that is going
• 1:06:42
  through their process and they're just going through it
• 1:06:45
  all right, because I get it and it sucks.
• 1:06:47
  If anybody's listening to this at the end of it, dude, if you
• 1:06:51
  need some, just DM me and we can talk about it and I'll put you
• 1:06:57
  and your parents through whatever they need set up.
• 1:06:59
  You guys need APT in your area and I know somebody just DM me.
• 1:07:03
  You guys need a pep talk mentally, You guys need
• 1:07:06
  something to help with the bicep pain.
• 1:07:08
  Just reach out that that'll be the ultimate the ultimate goal
• 1:07:13
  of what I'm trying to do is that if Tommy John injuries do go
• 1:07:18
  down and labor recovery rates go up in the next 10 years, I hope
• 1:07:23
  that when we look back in 2025, people see that small little
• 1:07:27
  blip of Casiola memes on Rick and Morty posts.
• 1:07:30
  And they're like, that was the turn.
• 1:07:32
  That was the turning point. That's that's what did it, you
• 1:07:34
  know what I mean? People were like, that's that's
• 1:07:36
  when people started to think a little more positively about the
• 1:07:41
  dangers of rehab, I guess, right.
• 1:07:43
  But that's my message. How moral, how how noble, huh.
• 1:07:48
  Social media I doing here. What's the game plan?
• 1:07:50
  Yeah, yeah, drop your social medias now.
• 1:07:53
  Cassiola performance on Instagram.
• 1:07:55
  I think it's the same thing on TikTok.
• 1:07:57
  We got some awesome athlete updates, some great songs.
• 1:08:00
  I think I post some good songs on there all right, but I got
• 1:08:04
  some good music. That's all I got.
• 1:08:06
  So thank you for having me. By the way, this was a blast.
• 1:08:09
  I enjoy ranting about injury and impulses and memes and it's it's
• 1:08:13
  a lot of fun. So thank you very much.
• 1:08:15
  I really do appreciate. It's been awesome.
• 1:08:18
  It was a pleasure, it was awesome having you on, actually
• 1:08:20
  getting to see the man behind Labour Isn't Real in the flesh
• 1:08:25
  and hear his voice. This is the message that's
• 1:08:28
  helping athletes get back to not just who they once were, but
• 1:08:34
  ultimately to a better spot. And it's very cool to be able to
• 1:08:37
  collab in a lot of these processes.
• 1:08:40
  So thanks for your time today, thanks for what you're doing for
• 1:08:42
  the industry as a whole. And to all the listeners out
• 1:08:44
  there, thanks for laying back with us.