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The IC and Roadway Safety · B Shifter

• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to the Boot Shifter Podcast.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: You have John Vance here today, along with Josh Bloom.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Scott Williams is our guest.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Scott is a blue card boot instructor.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: He is the assistant chief of the Springdale, Ohio Fire Department, and has been an instructor for several years and in a lot of other disciplines, and has a topic that he spoke about at our hazard zone conference this year that got brave reviews and really opened a lot of eyes for people.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we wanted to get Scott on today because of some recent events that happened in Houston with a roadway accident.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about operating on the roadway and how dangerous it is and how we apply the risk management model.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we've been talking about this lately with our battalion chiefs back home, that it's one of the, if not the most dangerous places we operate.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's just as dangerous, I think, as being an IDLH.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I refer to it as an IDLH because it's an environment that's immediately dangerous to life and health.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to help you today as an IC to make some decisions and get some resources to help you better manage the safety and the risk that our people are involved in on the roadway.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, Scott, thank you very much for being here today and spending some time with us on the B Shifter Podcast to pass this information along.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to start off with an incident that happened in Ohio.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: This was a close call.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was a distracted driver.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's set this up and then Josh has some thoughts before we roll the video.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so this incident happened in a neighboring city of ours, right on I-75.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: They were dispatched to the northbound side of the highway for an auto accident with injuries.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: The crews uh responded.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: When they arrived, this portion of the highway has got a grassy median in between, so there's no jersey wall or anything protecting the southbound from the north.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: They set up everything on the northbound side of the highway and the high-speed berm because the vehicle was in the grassy area.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: They had a medic and a battalion on the scene, two engines, so the blocking engine and the first engine on the scene assisting.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: And they had uh the safety patrol from ODOT there, the Geico safety patrol vehicle.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's set up, doing everything they're supposed to do.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we talk about this a lot, just making sure we're doing everything right before something goes wrong.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: They're out of the vehicles, they're assessing the patient and grassy median, and then they notice another vehicle in the southbound side of the highway in the high speed burn.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: They sent a firefighter over to check to see if the person was involved in the accident.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they were.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: They were knelt down at the driver's door just talking to the patient to see what they needed.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: There was a highway patrol officer at the back of this vehicle, and we'll watch this video here in a second.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see how close things came.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think one thing with this one is is as you watch this, they got called the northbound, but it's in the median.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we have to have that consideration of what's going on southbound as well.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, uh probably very few of us have thought about that in the past, but this brings that to light that if we're operating in the median, then we have a hazard northbound and southbound that we need to think about and consider.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that IC's job to make sure that you know everybody there has their head on a swivel and that everybody's watching, you know, everywhere and what's going on.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, taking advantage and using all the resource you have available to make the area where we're operating safe.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, northbound was you know set up, but you know, southbound not.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And they didn't know that, you know, until you know, basically right when this incident happened is when they realized that there was something else going on on the other side of the median.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: But even if you're operating in the middle of the median, we should consider northbound and southbound if the if there's not a barrier, you know, there to protect us.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: That is correct.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we're gonna discuss another case here in a little bit with uh crossover situation that occurred and resulted in three people dying in that incident, two firefighters and a police officer.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll go to this incident in Ohio from uh body cam from a state trooper.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we see this car coming, and we're just gonna stop the video right here, and and it's gonna back up and show where that officer was.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Human nature, if you have a car coming at you like that, what are most people, Scott, in your studies going to do to try to get out of the way of that automobile?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what they're gonna do is move to the right, and the reason they're gonna do that is because they know all that traffic is moving to their left at highway speeds.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: They see this car coming directly at them.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: So our tendency is to move to the right, go into that grassy area to try to find some refuge.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And which are if this trooper would have done that, it would have cost him his life.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Fortunately, he stayed put.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: What were you doing?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: You can't do it.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you almost killed us.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: You needed some water.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: So you don't pay attention to anything on the road because you're at thirty.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: No one else.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: There was me and another firefighter, and then someone else had just got involved in the crash.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, uh yeah, it so you're within literally five feet of hitting one of us.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so it will be a mandatory court appearance.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: I started you for failure to control.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: Your mandatory court day will be August 15th.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So when we talk about this being a problem, Scott, over the last five years, what what's the number like?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: How many, how many, how many first responders or firefighters, how do you have that broken down, have been killed in the line of duty in these roadway incidents?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: So it's about 500 responders out there total, and 251 of those are emergency responders.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the police and firefighters over that span of time.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: And when you look at compare how many times we're on the highway versus the tow truck operators, uh, some of these other individuals of police are up there obviously more often than we are when they have non-injury accidents.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: But the tow truck and all those geico vehicles, safety patrols, they're on the highways way more than we are, but they're not being struck as often as we are.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's something we really have to look at and give some attention to.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're gonna walk through a few case studies and then we're gonna get to some best practices and then give you an opportunity also to download an SOP that could help your department.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that that's kind of where we're gonna go with the podcast today.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the first case study we're gonna look at actually hit very close to home for Scott.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was his uh city's police department in Springdale, Ohio.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: They lost an officer in the line of duty from the PD, Kaya Grant, and that was an incident that I don't know if it could have been prevented, but walk us through this incident and tell us what happened with this line of duty death.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: So this was uh right in the height of COVID, uh, right when everything was starting to be shut down.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was on a 48-hour shift, uh, doing an overtime shift on a Saturday, and the first half of that we got dispatched to an injured person on our highway, uh, which was unusual for us.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: We normally would get dispatched for uh auto access, maybe a vehicle fire, sometimes a medical emergency up there, but not an injured person.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we always sent an engine company to any time we went to the highway, but we really didn't know what we were doing all the time when we did that engine.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: We sent the engine just because we wanted to have some blocking there, but were we doing things appropriately?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I marked on the radio and asked the dispatch, they had some additional information.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: And immediately by the cracking of the dispatcher's voice, I knew things were it was something significant.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, she came on and told me there was an officer down that was struck.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so marking route, and then I'm getting reports en route that there's multiple officers injured.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: We enter the highway eastbound.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, everything is happening in the westbound side of the highway.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And within a tenth of a mile of us entering from our exit ramp is where all this is happening.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And what I noticed as I entered the highway was Kaya was laying uh on the high-speed berm eastbound, but everything else was on the westbound side of the highway.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: So the medicre and I stopped right there with her.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: I get out of my vehicle, and as I'm looking over the jersey wall, I can see Sergeant Davis.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: He's laying in the roadway westbound, and he's just yelling at me, Where's Kaya, Scott?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Where's Kaya?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I knew where she was, and I knew her injuries were significant, and she wasn't gonna survive this.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I just told him, We got her over here, we'll take care of her.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I look to my left, I noticed that there's a the police have the driver at gunpoint, so we're worried about scene safety at this point, and how secure that scene is, and then uh trying to make sure we had enough medic units and everything dispatched up to the highway.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: So Sergeant Davis and Kaya were setting up stop sticks on the westbound side of the highway.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Kaya's vehicle was in the high-speed berm westbound.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Sergeant Davis had parked his vehicle eastbound, jumped the wall, and they were throwing the sticks out.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: They went to the back of her car like they were taught to do for protection.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And this guy that was fleeing was a suicidal subject.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: He ended up uh just intentionally striking both of them, which sent Kaya over top of the Jersey wall to the eastbound side, and obviously she died from her injuries.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Sergeant Davis survived this accident, but never returned back to work, never full duty.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: He retired uh within a year from this happening.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: So some pictures of Kaya's cruiser here.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: So was she standing behind that cruiser, or where where was she at in relation to where the collision happened?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Rear of the cruiser, uh, kind of to that right where that impact was on the left-hand side there.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he went, once he hit her, uh, he went between the jersey wall and her cruiser down that left side of that car, ended up all the way on the right-hand grassy burn of the highway.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: So you can see the devastation of her vehicle and how that impact was uh unbelievable to the vehicles.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Through all this, it just made me sit down and look at things like what do we need to do differently.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And how did this change your city?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm sure this was something that really impacted the city as a whole, but how how did it impact how you operated on roadways and and going forward?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do you try to prevent these kind of things from happening?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And as Josh said, you know, we we could be doing it all correctly, and it's things are still gonna happen, but how do we work to to prevent this?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what have you guys done?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we didn't even have a TIM policy at all at that point, and so I started on a quest to learn about this and and and figure things out and make sure that everybody was safer, both police and fire.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I started attending a bunch of classes and FDIC, started making connections with other people that had dealt with this and created a TIM policy for our department.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: I've since become a TIM instructor, uh, so I can now teach our region uh how to operate safely on the highway.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Started obviously with all of our fire department.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Make the fire department is trained.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: We've uh invited them to all the training to make sure they understand how to operate on the highways.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now we have it just work collectively together on the runs.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: So we work with our tow truck operators that we deal with.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: We have a rotation of operators that are there all the time, so we try to make sure they understand what's going on.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then we've actually talked to the safety patrol people to find out what are their policies, what do they do, and so that we can all work together and be safer on the highways.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really driven what I've done in our region for our response, but then just what it's done to our department as a whole, the police department, several officers just left the job, right?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Our lead medic is not even in the fire service anymore that took care of Kaya.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: He had a lot of just mental health issues from that, really set people over the edge.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it was the greatest job in the world.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: I tell everybody all the time until it's not, right?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: And when you lose somebody like this, whether it's a line of duty death in a fire or it's on the highway like this, whether it's police fire, it doesn't matter, it affects you greatly.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: I walked with uh Kaya's family through this.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Gina's her mother, Kevin's her father, and it devastated their family.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I went with them to Washington, D.C.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: when we put Kaya's name on a memorial wall.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: I walked with them as they got the Medal of Honor from at the Capitol building, and that was all part of my grieving process, being a part of everything, and just watching them suffer through that and watching what it did to the police and fire department.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's the things that we don't talk about.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of times we go to the funeral and everybody kind of forgets it from there.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: But it's all those days, weeks, months, years after that.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: That it doesn't change for those families and the people that were that knew them and responded to the call.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to talk about the traffic incident management program that or TIM that uh Scott was referring to coming up.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: But let's talk about a couple other incidents that have happened because I think it they all relate to to each other and and can help us can continue to learn.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one was uh recently in Ohio, a trooper Nicholas Clayton was killed in line of duty on an incident.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: What happened there?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: So he was assisting on an auto accident with a semi-truck.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: He was set up behind the truck and in his vehicle, like he's supposed to be after everything is over with.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Get back in the vehicle to get that extra protection.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And another semi-truck came up behind him and struck him and pancaked him between the two semis.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And he died from his injuries.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: That just happened in October in northern Ohio here.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then the next morning, there was another accident in Covington, Kentucky, which is right where Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky meet on 71.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: He was and his cruiser, the same thing, struck by a vehicle.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: He's on the scene blocking, and another vehicle came up from behind him and struck him.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: So within that 12-hour window, we had two police officers, you know, one both vehicles struck, but one killed, the other one had injuries but survived these accidents.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: That that's the that's just a horrific thing to pull up on.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've done it in my career to see, you know, seeing police cars on their side and been damaged so bad, and then there's a whole other extrication issue.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: One if you've got a cop trap with all the electronics and cages and stuff that they have in their vehicles.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then recently we we had this Houston incident.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Tell tell us what happened in Houston just a few days ago.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so they were the same thing, assisting an 18-wheeler auto accident, and on the scene of that blocking, the engine company had the crew back on the truck, like we talked about.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one of the big things we have to learn from these.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's what saved their life, right?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes we want to stand out there on the highway and have a conversation with the police and tow truck, and that's not the time to have it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to have a conversation with the police officers, then come back to the police fire department, go to the police station and talk to them.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: The highway is not the place for that.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, all these four firefighters were back on that engine company blocking, and another semi came through and struck them right in that pump panel at the jump seat door.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: The fire truck was literally almost a U-shape when it was done.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: They had to have two tow trucks towed off the scene to get it because of the damage done to the fire truck.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, four firefighters were injured.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there's fractures involved in these some of these injuries, but they they're all gonna survive and be okay and recover from these injuries.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so we we've talked about getting back into the vehicle, you know, and and I I look at it like the clock's ticking when we're out on a on a highway like that.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, let's let's get our job done, let's get out of there.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: But you we, you know, to the two officers and and these firefighters were in the vehicle.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we're saying that's best practice, but there's a component of that we have to have our seat belts on if we're sitting in the vehicle, right?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Is that that is correct.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what uh our policy is is once they're done, they get back in the vehicle, they put their seat belts on, they're different if they were responding.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they're they're gonna keep hopefully being from being ejected if they are struck, and then that fire apparatus, that vehicle is gonna give them that hopefully some protection to absorb that energy to keep them alive.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So let's shift gears and we'll talk about a case study out of Lubbock, Texas.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: That was uh a few years ago, and it was a crash on a highway.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh the the fire department was responding to a traffic accident on the highway.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Two firefighters and a police officer were ultimately killed in the line of duty.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, tell us about this incident.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: So the the individual on your left here is firefighter Matt Dawson.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Lieutenant Eric H is in the middle, and then there was uh police officer Renya who ended up dying in this as well.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: In my quest to learn about traffic safety, I took this class that Lieutenant Brady Robinette from Lovick, Texas uh was teaching and learned about their line of duty death, and it made me change a lot of what we were doing as well.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: So they're set up on the auto accident.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: They had a morning where they got a little bit of ice on the roadways down there in Texas, and there's an elevated highway going down the middle, and then it's kind of two off ramps below on each side of the highway.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: They had already transported the patients, they had a couple vehicles there, and they had left two blocking engines but returned the rest of the complement.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: They had a ladder company and a battalion on the scene before all this happened, and then two engine companies are set up and they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do again.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: They're doing everything right in preparation of something going wrong.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: They had a blocking engine sitting behind them, both positioned but properly.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: While they're there, there was another crash that happened on their side of the highway ahead of them.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: So Eric Hill and Matt Dawson got off the truck to walk up, like any of us would do, to check on those injuries.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: And on the way to that wreck, another vehicle came the other direction, crossed over that grassy median, and struck both them and the police officer.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Eric Hill died at the scene, as well as the police officer, and Matt was transported to the hospital.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Matt survived and lived for 34 months before his injuries.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: The significant thing that came out of this crash report was the the head protection that we utilize on the highway.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody uses fire helmets when they're out there because that's what we have.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And uh any roadway worker is traditionally using a construction helmet, and those are uh designed to protect you from impact from top down, but not from side impacts and those anything collision related like that or hitting the ground with your helmet.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: They both had their helmets on, but when they impacted the ground, their helmets flew off, and Matt suffered a significant brain injury from that.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: And the 34 months that he lived um was rough for him, right?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Rough for the fire department.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: He had a wife and a young daughter, and what that does.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: And those are the things that we don't think about and talk about again, right?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's that the financial component, the emotional component, what that's done to those who made that run and cared for him, what it's done to his wife and daughter and family, and those impacts are significant, and that's what we really have to think about when we're out there operating on the roadways.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then this is Matt, while he was trying to recover, what what happened to him?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, was was there ever a prognosis that you know about that they were they thought he was gonna make it, or did did he just suffer from so many complications that ultimately uh took his life?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, from what I understand, it's just uh this all the complications to that accident just over time uh finally end up costing his life.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they it was ruled a line of duty death uh because the initial injury was because he was up on that highway and operating.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so this is why we now at Springdale Fire Department wear rescue helmets um on the highway.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: We do not um wear fire helmets when we're out out there operating unless it's a vehicle fire in snow time that we wear them.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Lieutenant Brady Robinette has made it his mission to try to get uh a helmet made specific for roadway use, and he's been working on that for five five years now.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: And in July of 24, uh the American Society for Testing Materials was able to finally publish a standard for that helmet.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Now we just need a manufacturer to make the helmet.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so in the meantime, what do we wear?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we've done is gone with a Team Wendy helmet, as long as what that's the same thing Lubbock has done, and it's rated for like white water rafting, mountaineering, uh bike bicycling, all that, so that it gives the most protection it possibly can until this other helmet is made.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: So aside from the helmet, which this is good information, and and really you're you're the first one I heard, you know, bring this helmet.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, we used to wear technical rescue helmets sometimes to do extrication just because it's easier to get in and out of the cars with those, but uh probably another application for even those kind of helmets.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: But what what other gear should we have on to complement our um visibility and in addition to you know whatever ANSI approves, or you know, how should we be dressed uh while we're on a roadway?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so ANSI 107 is our standard for that, and it's gonna tell us what the safety apparel we need.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we want to think about those vests we're wearing because there's many out there, right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's some that have the lights in them that light up.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: But what I want everybody to remember is they need to think about that breakaway protection.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: If you're caught on a vehicle, on a mirror, whatever it might be, you want that vest that you're wearing, that garment that you're wearing to be able to tear off so that you don't get drugged down the highway.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, some of the other vests that are out there, there are different ones that do not break away, they still meet the standard.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're caught, uh it could be drugged down the highway.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: So uh we've really been intentional with that to make sure that ours break away.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's got all the different Velcro points on it.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: We have five different points on ours that it'll break away so that it takes that off of us.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: But we want to make sure that we are wearing that safety gear.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: A garment could be a vest, it could be a jacket, even.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And those jackets obviously aren't gonna tear away, break away.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: But like when you go through Chick-fil-A and you see that operators wearing the sashes, that's not appropriate for the highway to use, right?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: We got to make sure it's a vest.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, if it's a fire, we gotta be in our turnout gear.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's no way around that.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that does offer some reflectivity, but when we're on the highway, we need to make sure we have that vest on.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then uh for us, it's always a safety helmet.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Even on an entrapment, we're wearing the state behind.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: We, you know, we're up on these roadways where people are doing 80, 90 miles an hour, their wisdom bias.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times, law enforcement doesn't let us shut down the the entire road, so we still have to work within traffic, and that's probably a whole other topic to you know how we're gonna control that.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: But what I and you say it, I mean, our biggest problem out there is distracted drivers that end up driving right into our apparatus or right into workers that are trying to attend to patients and hazards on the roadway, right?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, yeah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: We got those distracted drivers, right?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's all kinds of them.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: They're drunk, they're drugged, they're drowsy, they're distracted, they're on their phones, they're dangerous drivers.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes there's driverless vehicles now, right?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we just talk about all the key drivers that are out there.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: We start thinking about all the stuff that's out there.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: How is that driverless vehicle gonna know we're ahead of them, right?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, and so this is all the things we're dealing with.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's only gonna continue, and so we have to think through that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: And those distracted drivers are what's gonna get us, just like the near miss we saw in at the top of the show here.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was because of a distracted driver reaching down to get some water, looked up, and there they are, and he's got nowhere to go.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, people on their phones and and people who are living in their own world doing whatever they're doing in their vehicles, and we see it happen all the time.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you you you spoke about Tim, the traffic incident management, and there's some training that goes goes along with that.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: What what is that?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, what should departments implement as far as training goes to get our folks ready to operate in these environments?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: So nationally, there is a traffic incident management training that's taught, and it's the same throughout every state.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: And they they can add some, make it more stringent, kind of like a fire code if they choose to, each state can, but they have to meet this minimum standard.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the training is free, so there's no reason not to get it done.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you can do it in person or virtually.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, if you go to your state department of transportation, they offer it in person and virtually as well.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: I've taken ours that that's where I initially took mine, was at our Iowa Department of Transportation, one of the offices in person to learn about it.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: The Emergency Responder Safety Institute is kind of the leader in all the highway stuff, and they offer a Tim training on their site as well, as well as the Federal Highway Administration.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you can go to any of their websites and you can take the training for free if you on shift and you're doing it.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: You get through there's 10 modules to it.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you get through module two and make a run, it'll save your progress, you come right back to where you're at.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of it, you're gonna get you that certificate, and it's gonna help you to know how all disciplines need to operate on the highway.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not just for firefighters, it's for our police, our tow operators, the safety control, ODOT, any of your Department of Transportation workers, all those people are trained to the same level uh at what they're strengthening.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: So when we get out there and and part of the program talks about, you know, once we respond up on a on a highway, high, high speed road, however we uh quantify that in our jurisdiction.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what's the importance of creating a safety zone for our workers and how do we go about doing that?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's the safety zone is what we got to do when we what we got to figure out and set up, right?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's gonna look different on every run.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we have maybe a car in the middle of the highway and like maybe lane three.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we have a split accident where we've got cars on the high speed berm and right hand burn.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have to look at that when we respond and figure out the safest way to position.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: But our medic unit should always be in front of the accident and the fire apparatus to the back of the apparatus, and then our safety patrol people are behind all of us because they have that message board and they can really light things up, let people see things.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's working with your safety patrols to make sure they understand where you need them to set up.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: We got to create that initial block.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a block right, block left, depending on how you're positioning your truck, and we want the block towards the way we want traffic to flow.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we want traffic to move to the right of our accident.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: We want to turn our truck to the right so that they are moving in that direction.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things for the pump operators, the apparatus operators, is to turn their wheels once they park.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we want their wheels turned away from the accident.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: So if that semi or somebody comes up behind and hits us, it's gonna move that truck the way the wheels are turned.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: If the wheels are turned towards our accident scene, it's gonna come right into our safety zone that we're creating.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Now, it's that risk management we talk about all the time, right?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, even through our program.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: When I get on the highway, uh, if I'm there in my staff car, there's many times I don't get out of the car.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's because it's not safe for me to do so, right?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: I have to understand that is it okay for me to get out right now?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: If I get struck, who am I helping?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: And there's times I'll pull up, I'll give the size up, create the initial block, and wait for the engine company to pull up behind me and then reposition my vehicle and then at that point get out and really start assessing more what we have.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to think about that the same way we would respond to a structure fire, same thing on the highway.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: How does it look?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what are we gonna be in an offensive strategy here or do we need to just go defensive for a minute, then go back offensive to be able to get out of the vehicle?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we have to apply that same.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Method as we arrive on these accident scenes.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: So wait, would you advocate, or does the program advocate for additional apparatus response on highways?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, our our typical response used to be an engine and maybe an ambulance, but should we be sending more?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what's the roles of all those apparatus and crews that are responding?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we should be sending additional apparatus to these crashes, and that's what we've kind of done in our region, right?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: We all have to work each lade together to make that happen.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have some of us are single engine houses, but we don't have multiple fire apparatuses we can throw at it.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what we've done in our region with our Interstate 275 and Interstate 75.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: We've all worked collectively now to have a mutual aid engine dispatched.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we ensure that we have two.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's been times we pulled up and needed a third, and we just asked for an additional engine and then we positioned them where we need them.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: But the initial engine is gonna set up close to the scene in a way that they can work the scene as needed.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: The second engine, the blocking engine, should be blocking 150 to 300 feet behind that initial engine.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: So that training component, we talk about, hey, you're the blocking engine when you arrive.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Set up, you're gonna set up in the blocking position, mere engine 90s block, it means block the same way they're blocking, but you're gonna do that 150 to 300.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: That company officer has to make that decision.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: So once we get the training out there, everybody knows by you know that task and uh location objective we're given that they need they can make that decision within how far back they need to do it.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we uh and then when you have that split accident that happens, it crashes on a high-speed right-hand burn with that extra engine.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: You can just put one engine to the right, one engine to the left, and you've got a block on both sides.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it accomplishes many things having at least two engines on that initial dispatch.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Probably more than any of us that uh work here with B Shifter, you know, Josh is on the phone and and out talking to fire chiefs and fire service leaders every single day.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Josh is relaying to me that we get pushback on this best best practice.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Have you encountered that, Josh?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, give us some examples of some pushback on sending the additional apparatus.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um in typical you know, fashion when people get into certain positions, they forget about the work and it becomes more about you know what what they're comfortable with or what they feel is important or or whatever.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that and they're not the ones that are standing out there in the roadway.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, over the last how to say 10 years, I've heard plenty of instances of people returning even the first engine and just leaving a medic unit on the highway.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're just we're we're reducing our exposure, we're sending them back.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, but you just left an ambulance by themselves on the highway to get hit.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is you know, the response sometimes is, well, I don't need that, I don't need that million-dollar fire truck up there.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: If that thing gets totaled, you know, it'll take five now, it'll take, you know, it'll take five years to replace that, and it's gonna cost us a million dollars and whatever.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, you heard or kill four firemen or six firemen, or tractor trailer runs into the back of that ambulance with, you know, two paramedics and a patient in it, and now nobody's there, right?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we're sending apparatus there for the reason of creating that safety zone for us.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I always loved in the in my previous life we're gonna go to inclement weather response on the highway, and we're only gonna send the minimum resource of a medic unit and one engine.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like that's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard in my life.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: When we're at the biggest risk of, you know, the highway being iced over, snow, you know, whatever, and and we're gonna reduce our response to limit our exposure.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, you're limiting your exposure of maybe a total on a fire truck, but you're not limiting your exposure of your firefighters that are operating out there on the highway getting hurt or killed.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to start with it, all goes back for me for starting with the work.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what does it take to do the work that we need to do?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And part of working on the highway or working in any incident roadway is evaluation of those critical factors.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sounding kind of like the same system that we use for everything we go to.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's why our program and system is all hazards.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: What are the critical factors?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can apply it to an auto accident, you can apply it to a violent crimes incident, you can apply it to an ARF incident, you can apply it to anything, right?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to get there and make decisions and think.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess the second piece of that that I hear all the time is well, the the patient's in the ambulance now, and we're going to return all the companies.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, we we sent them there for a reason.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: We will all leave together.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd like to hear Scott's kind of input on that.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the medic unit will leave maybe before everybody else, but we shouldn't leave the medic unit sitting there by themselves as a target, is the way I look at it, you know, on the highway or or on any other roadway.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: That we're we're just leaving a big exposure there.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if we want to talk about the limiting exposure, the best way we limit exposure is use the resources that we have available to protect our most valuable asset, and that is the people who work on the fire trucks and do the work.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: The that piece of equipment, I get it, it's a million dollars or two million dollars or whatever.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: But in this case, it's there to protect us, no different than uh you know, so many other things we have, right?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: We we wear an SCBA to protect us from you know toxic you know conditions inside of an ideal H environment.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't take the stance on that of, oh, don't wear your SCBA in there.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting it's it's you're exposing it and it's getting worn down, and it's like, no, that's bullshit.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it and so like in the state of Ohio, we have a quick clearance wall so we can actually move vehicles and get them out of the way.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: So when we talk about limiting that exposure, it's don't leave these cars in the middle of the lanes.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Once we get the patience out of them, let's get them off the road, right?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so they that's where your safety patrol will work with you.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's like their structure fire, man.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: They love it.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like they get out there and they'll get these cars and demolition derby and move them off to the side of the road.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we do this all the time, but before Kaya, we never thought about it.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: And now we just clear them out of the way, get them over to one of the berms, and then we can reduce that response down to a police officer and uh and the safety patrol there until the toad gets there.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: We also want to think about those police officers that are out there, even when that medicure leaves, right?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't think much about it before.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: We kind of cleared with our medicinal.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now we want to think about them.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: They're sitting there by themselves.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: If we need to keep that engine there a little bit longer to block for them until we can get things moved, sometimes you can't move the vehicles if you're stable, they just gotta stay put.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: We try to work with our toes and our police and make sure we keep that engine in as long as we can to protect for them as well.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really changed our mindset after going through Ty's path.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: You you talked about the traffic incident management training.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: We'll we'll provide a link to that too in the show notes.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: How how do you get an SOP for this?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and what should the SOP look like?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and then what was really the process of you implementing the SOP that you have at Springdale?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think that our guys were hungry for it, so I didn't think it was difficult for the guys to grab a hold of it and utilize it.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they've embraced it.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: Even when I've you know come back with the rescue helmets and done that, they've uh they really embraced that as well.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: We'll give you a sample SOG.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'll share ours with you at the end of the show, it'll be in the notes and stuff for you.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: In that, it's gonna show you the different blocks that you have to do.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have that crossover happen, if you have the split accident, all those different things, it shows you how to create that safety zone with an actual diagram in it, as well as detailing out what the response needs to be from personal protective equipment to there's a rescue helmet component in there.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then one of the key things that uh came out um about a year ago with Matt's NIOSH report, I went through all the key recommendations to see if there was anything we needed to change.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we had a spotter, we we assigned a safety officer on every run as a spotter, and all their job is is to watch everything that's going on.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: So whether it's the battalion and the district car or if it's the lieutenant on the engine company, if it's me, it doesn't matter.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody has to be assigned to it, and that's a position we assign out on every crash.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: But how do we alert them, right?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: How do we let them know danger's coming?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: And if we go to key the mic up and it's busy and we get that bonk, that busy signal.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, if we try to yell and traffic's going by us and they can't hear us, how are we gonna alert them?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, what we did after that NIOS report is we put a marine horn in the front seat of the engine for the officer.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: We keep one in all the chief's cars, and whoever the spotter is has that marine horn.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we've talked, you know, not only do our guys need to know this, our police, our tow operators, the safety patrol.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: So we've trained all of them.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Our mutual aid partners that are responding with us on these.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: If you hear that horn, something's inbound, and you just need a heads up and move.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how we've kind of learned how to alert people.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: Where is the best place for that safety lookout uh person to be positioned?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Where where do you advocate for them to be?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: It really depends on where the how the crash is set up, but they got to be set back in a way where they can watch for the oncoming traffic coming at them.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're in a fortunate spot on our highway where we've got a jerseywall the entire stretch of our highway now.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we used to have that crossover worry.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: So now they can sit back and look at that.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: I respond to every car wreck in our city when I'm on shift, and all I do is position somewhere to assist in creating that safety zone.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: And 95% of the time I don't even get out of my car.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll keep that marine horn in my hand with the window down, watching my mirrors.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: And if I see something, I'll hit that as well.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: So when I'm on the scene, we generally have two safety officers that are just all we're doing is just watching traffic.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: So once we get everybody back in the truck while we're waiting on the tow, we don't have that safety officer out there anymore.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: But anytime we're off off of a truck, somebody's got to be assigned to that level.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: As fast as technology is evolving, we're getting more tools for us to better manage this.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I love some of the stuff the cops are doing now, and that's that's a whole other topic.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Police chases and the the grappling hook now that they have that can wrap the axle of the car they're chasing and just disable the vehicle.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: That that's a huge advancement for that.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: But there's these uh new digital alerting systems.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: You were talking about that at the conference.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: What are those and how does that work?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the digital alerting, um, there's new technology after that.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the company that we went with uh is Haas Alert, they use the uh safety cloud, and we have put these, we have to put these transponders on every one of our vehicles, and they're tied to our emergency lights.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: So every time we turn the emergency lights on, it sends out a signal and alerts people that we are responding, so it'll pop up on their infotainment systems and their navigation apps and tell them, hey, there's an emergency vehicle ahead or responding, approaching.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: If we're sitting on a scene on the highway, then it tells them there's an emergency vehicle ahead.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it gives them a 30-second notice before uh they get to us.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: We I just looked at our stats this morning last month.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: We alerted 2,800 drivers uh in our city responding to calls and working on our roadways and highways.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's another again, technology is evolving, it's another thing out there.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: We got to take advantage of it.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's just to me, it's worth the cost to keep our guys safe.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I went to Chief with it and he didn't balk at it at all.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: He's about to make it happen.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: So Scott, we we really appreciate you being with us today and and and walking us through some of these incidents that happened and also best practices.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have your contact information also in the show notes if somebody wants to reach out to you and get more information.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's a topic we don't talk about enough, especially when it comes to the dangers that that our folks face.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to I just want to put it out there that we're uh we've been we've been working on it for I don't know, six months.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Scott and I have been back and forth probably on the creating a CE module to put in the download center, you know, for for people to have as a CE for this traffic incident management.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not going to replace, I mean, I encourage everybody to just go take the free course, right?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: But this is just gonna be a CE module kind of as a reminder, refresher is the incident commander IC one and two.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are our roles?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: What are our considerations?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then really drive people to, you know, the Thames training program to to go through it.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's really there's no excuse to go through it, right?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna cost you only thing it's gonna cost you is a little bit of your time, and hopefully it would will make a difference out on the fire ground.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other comment I had was you you had mentioned Scott, how did you how'd you implement this?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: And at Springdale, you know, he um you run an SOG to say this is what we're gonna do, this is why we're gonna do it, and then you then you enforce that.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, so many places we see, oh, we're gonna jump on that because it's the cool thing.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh even our own even in our own area, it's like you your boss bought that equipment and he put you through the training, but you're standing in the middle of the roadway in your sweatshirt, like why why aren't you and you but you have all of the stuff, so why aren't you doing anything with that?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that comes back to the accountability model, right?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have to hold people accountable.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: We we told you what the expectation is, we trained you on it, and now we're gonna hold you accountable for it.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we're doing all of this for us, right?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's for us, it's for the police department, it's for the tow truck drivers, it's for us.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it this this has nothing to do really with the customer, except for we can't do our job if we become a victim.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why we have to be doing everything right when something goes wrong.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean fire trucks and ambulances and police cars aren't going to get hit.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that we have to take the approach of we're operating, and John, I'm on with you.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's an ideal H environment when you're on the highway.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: That was we get here where I live, we have two miles of northbound 75 that's all elevated right there.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, if it if it rains, it becomes like an ice rink.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, it's the worst place you could ever operate.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, I I have no, no, no, no issues ever shutting down the highway.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, Scott, I think mentioned and John mentioned the well, what do you do with the police?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: They always want the highway open.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it goes back to another project that Chief Williams has done so well with is we we don't talk to the police except for to joke with them.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in this case, it's like, no, we need to have a conversation about why are we doing what we do and get their buy-in, no different than the fire department doesn't like the dispatch center because they don't do what we want them to.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, have you ever told them or asked them to do what you want them to do?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that relationship thing, right?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: It all comes back to relationships and getting on the same page, not trying to figure it out when the bell rings and you're standing on the highway with cars zipping past you at 70 miles an hour.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Just have the conversation of why.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in the last 10 years around here, even before Tim stuff, you know, all the way back to Brandon Guerin getting hit here in Lachland, you know, from a police pursuit.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, several other instances where, you know, accidents happened, secondary accidents happened.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Police officers have much more of that mindset of no, I'm not gonna die up here.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, we can shut it down all night.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of that mindset of, no, my I'm the highway patrol and my my job is to make sure that traffic flows no matter what.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have to work with them and make sure that we keep traffic flowing the best we can, but they become a lot more open now that we've had discussions and talked to them about why we do what we do.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, that's that's just what you have to do.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: Not try to figure it out uh not try to figure it out later.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: And uh as I as I was saying that I don't want to go down that path because it'll be a story Nick can tell later, but kind of lines up with an old Nick Brunissini story with the with the police in a conflict on the highway.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and a lot of us have had those conflicts with with police on the highway.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I I worked uh uh a department that covered 94 in Michigan, and we and we work with those departments still up in Michigan.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: And Amy Schnerel Pennywith, an Ann Arbor firefighter, was killed uh about 10 years ago on 94.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Same exact there they were out at a car accident.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: I believe it was a single engine response, but don't quote me 100% on that.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: But an out-of-control car ended up hitting Penny, even though her lieutenant like gave the warning, like, and and two of the firefighters were able to jump over the barrier.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, Amy didn't make it and was struck by the vehicle.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we see this happen over and over again.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think like so many things that we do with B Shifter and Blue Card, we we want to prevent this from happening to your department.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to go through this, and that's why we're sharing this information with you today.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Scott, I wanted to get your take on this because you know, especially when I'm a later arriver and I I have an area that I've covered that you know it takes me 15 minutes to get there, and I'll pull up and the engine crew is assisting the tow truck driver with floor dry and getting things off the road.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is is that an appropriate use of our crews?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're gonna do that, what should we be doing in an you know, where we have discretionary time now?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're not attending to a patient or taking care of somebody who's having an emergency.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're just trying to maybe help the tow truck drivers.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a good use of our personnel and our resources?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're gonna do how how should we go about that?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we do that.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: We try again, it's like clear quick clearance, right?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: Get that roadway open as quickly as we can, get the flow of traffic.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's the best thing we can do to keep everybody safe.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: So we've put like leaf blowers on our truck so that we can move big piles of debris across the highway and try to get into one lane before we're trying to collect it up with a broom and a dustban.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we've changed some stuff that we've done there.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: We used to just have brooms, and everybody's out in the middle of the highway standing there trying to sweep all this debris up.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: So there's little things like that that we do.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: But back to what Josh was saying too is just holding those people accountable, right?
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: When they're wearing that rescue arm and the chin strap's not fastened, well, they it's not gonna do them any good when they get hit, right?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they're they're outdoing hydrants and they don't have that safety vest on.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's you're operating in the roadway, it's not just the crash scenes, right?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: So anytime we see that, we'll come back.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: We'll kind of do like we don't we'll do the bumper huddle, if you will, but back at the station and we'll talk about the run.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: We'll draw it up from the dry race board and say, hey, this is how we position, this is how we should have positioned.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: We need to fix this.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing that tell the incident commanders is when you get there, if they're not positioned right, tell them to reposition.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: Don't sit there and know it's wrong in hopes that it works out this time.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: Correct the behavior.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: But just having those discussions and holding your people accountable if they're not following the policies, how they're gonna understand the importance of it.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Scott, thanks for hopping on with us today.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and we should have probably told everybody up front.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: You you're in Chicago at a hotel right now in the lobby doing this for us.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: But we we felt like it was very timely with this incident that happened in Houston, and you know, we just see it occurring over and over again.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we we wanted to get you on right away.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: But you're you're in Chicago on a special detail right now.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for making time today for us to talk to you about this.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: We just scratched the surface, but I think getting the training, looking at the policy that we're going to provide, and you know, continuing more discussion on this.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything anything else that you want to add or Josh, you you want to add before we wrap it up today?
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just my contact information will be out there.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: If you guys need anything at all, please reach out.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we'll share our SFP with you and stuff.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: But if there's anything I can do, anyone in our region that sees this that needs training, I'll come out to your department.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'll do the Tim training in person for your people.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: Just reach out.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm here to help.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, before you you go, Scott, and I know you've got stuff to do in Chicago, helping some folks there, which is really cool.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: You got time to hang out and and maybe take a minute to uh listen and give your take on a timeless tactical truth from Alan Bernassini.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Again, if you live with a bad tactical situation long enough, you wear it.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: As I see number two, you're gonna find situations that maybe crews because they needed to take immediate action on the scene, maybe put themselves in harm's way.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what what other ways do we own it as I see as the incident commander on on these highways that we can limit that exposure?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's what we just talked about, right?
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: We get there, if it's not set up the right way, we need to do that.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we have to understand that there are gonna be times we have to move our vehicles.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: When I get there initially and set up, once the engine gets in by me and place and take it in the block, I need to move my vehicle to help create that safety zone.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes there's police there ahead of us, and so we need to ask them to move their vehicles as well.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: So they've been good uh as we've trained on this to understand that we're gonna have to be able to move stuff around, and we may have to move those fire apparatus around too.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: So just making sure that safety zone is created, making sure that we are operating safely and and not just doing things because that's the way we've always done it.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's that accidental success we talked about, and eventually it's gonna catch up to us.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: That lines up with one of my favorite slides in the in our whole program of the standard, standard condition, standard action, standard outcome.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you get there and the conditions that you see don't align with the action that's being taken, then you need to fix that.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: And just like on the fire ground, you pull up and it's like, okay, they took this initial action and it is not working.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: We need to change our incident action plan, which moving apparatus uh to block for us to put us in the best position to keep ourselves safe and to operate on the on the on a highway incident or roadway incident is just that.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's the action that we're taking, right?
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: It it may not align with the conditions that we currently have.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's okay, right?
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: We can't, there's no one size fits all.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: We need to have plan A, B, C, D.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of people talk about just plan A, and then sometimes they talk about plan B, and it's like, well, we need to have you know a plan and then another plan and then another plan, another plan.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: Our incident action plan is constantly, constantly changing.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: So Scott, thank you so much for taking time uh for us today and uh talking about this very important topic.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, all that information will be in the show notes.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, you have a great holiday and a good visit there in Chicago, and we look forward to seeing you again real soon.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Scott.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Josh, thanks for being here with us today, too, on the Beat Shifter podcast.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk to you again next week.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.