Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #837 Must-Know Online Safety With Madonna King

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#837 Must-Know Online Safety With Madonna King · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now. Hello,
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: this is doctor Justin Colson. So grateful that you've joined
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: me for another episode of the Happy Families Podcast, the
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: podcast for the time poor parent who just wants answers
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  Speaker 2: Now Today answers of a kind of frightening but very
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  Speaker 2: important kind. I have a guest joining me, Madonna King,
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  Speaker 2: the author of ten Ager Being fourteen Fathers and Daughters
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  Speaker 2: and More, but a brand new book that she has
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  Speaker 2: co authored with John Rouse. I'll let Madonna tell you
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  Speaker 2: all about who John is in a moment. The book
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  Speaker 2: is called Saving Our Children. Madonna, so grateful that you
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: can join me for this podcast Saving our Children. It
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  Speaker 2: sounds a little bit alarmist. Tell us about the book,
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  Speaker 2: why it's in existence, and who John Rowse is and
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: why that's so important.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it is alarmist, to be honest. It was confronting
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: writing it, lots of tears, and confronting reading it too.
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  Speaker 1: I think Inspector John Rowse is probably the global expert
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  Speaker 1: on investigations into what's happening online in relation to child
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  Speaker 1: sex offenses. So he ran Task Force Agos He's worked
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  Speaker 1: with the FBI and the Interpol, and both FBI and
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  Speaker 1: Interpol say to me, there is no one better in
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  Speaker 1: the world. He's done this for almost forty years, and
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  Speaker 1: he retires this year. And so I sat down with
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  Speaker 1: him for hours and hours and hours and days and
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  Speaker 1: days and days, and revisited some investigations, and just I
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  Speaker 1: got into his mind about what worries him as a parent,
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  Speaker 1: what he's seeing, and what our children aren't telling us.
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  Speaker 1: And that's what I find alarming.
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  Speaker 2: Justin what our children aren't telling us. I want to
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  Speaker 2: share a story with you. I've got an email about
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: no maybe six months ago now, and actually before I
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  Speaker 2: share the story, just a quick warning for parents of
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  Speaker 2: younger kids. By all means, let your teenagers or even
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: some of your older twins listen to this conversation. It's important,
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  Speaker 2: but we are going to be talking about things of
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  Speaker 2: sexual nature and of abusive nature that occur online. Will
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: keep it PG rated, but please be mindful of the content.
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  Speaker 2: So the email that I received, Madonna, I'm sure that
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  Speaker 2: this is probably only scratching the surface of what you
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  Speaker 2: describe in saving our children. But the email came from
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  Speaker 2: a mum who said I don't know what to do.
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  Speaker 2: Here's what's happened. And she essentially explained that her son
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: had come into her bedroom at about eleven o'clock at
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  Speaker 2: night in tears. He was about sixteen years old, sobbing
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  Speaker 2: and saying, Mum, I'm in so much trouble. I don't
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  Speaker 2: know what to do, just heartfelt, gut wrenching sobs. And
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  Speaker 2: when she finally helped him to breathe a little bit
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  Speaker 2: and have a hug and calm down, he explained that
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  Speaker 2: he'd been on Instagram. A really gorgeous girl had slid
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  Speaker 2: into his DMS and started messaging him. Within a very
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  Speaker 2: short period of time, I'm talking ten to twenty minutes,
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  Speaker 2: she'd sent an explicit image of herself to him, saying
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  Speaker 2: would you like more of this? He, obviously, being a
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  Speaker 2: sixteen year old boy, said yes, I probably would, and
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  Speaker 2: she said I need one as well, and so he
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  Speaker 2: took a photo of himself and sent it to her.
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  Speaker 2: Her next message was her describing that she was not
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  Speaker 2: who she said she was. She was actually somebody living overseas,
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  Speaker 2: a middle aged mail essentially, and if he didn't pay,
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  Speaker 2: I think it was five hundred dollars in bitcoin. Within
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  Speaker 2: the next fifteen minutes, the image that he had sent
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  Speaker 2: of himself was going to be shared with everybody on
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  Speaker 2: his friends list, on Instagram and on his other social media.
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  Speaker 2: Then this person sent screenshots of all of his friends
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  Speaker 2: on his various social media accounts, showing that they did
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  Speaker 2: have the capacity to send those messages, explaining who the
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  Speaker 2: image was and five hundred dollars right now. He sent
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  Speaker 2: the five hundred bucks. It was everything he had in
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  Speaker 2: his bank, and then a second message came through saying,
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  Speaker 2: now I'd like another five thousand, and at that point
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  Speaker 2: he freaked out, realized that he was in way over
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  Speaker 2: his head and went to his mum. So she came
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  Speaker 2: to me and said, what do I do? Now? I'm
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  Speaker 2: really really stuck. This is known as sextortion. What I'm
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  Speaker 2: in interested in is how common?
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  Speaker 1: Is it too common? And can I just say to
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  Speaker 1: that mum she has done something so right that he
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  Speaker 1: came to her. Yes, because Lisa is saying, there's one
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  Speaker 1: hundredfold increasing complaints. This is happening in each of our
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  Speaker 1: capital cities and rural areas today. It may involve a
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  Speaker 1: girl or a boy, entirely different approaches, and we can
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  Speaker 1: go into that, but it is really really common. You know,
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  Speaker 1: in the US, tech providers have to report suspicious online
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  Speaker 1: child abuse to this National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
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  Speaker 1: Then they fan those tips out worldwide. Last year it
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  Speaker 1: received thirty two million suspicious reports. They passed them on
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  Speaker 1: to one hundred and fifty countries, and about one hundred
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  Speaker 1: and eighty thousand of them related to Australia in some way.
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  Speaker 1: The thing is justin this is happening now going quicker
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  Speaker 1: each day. Some particularly boys are responding within three hours
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  Speaker 1: with a picture of themselves. Others it takes weeks. And
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  Speaker 1: with boys it can happen between the ages I guess
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  Speaker 1: of twelve and twenty four, which is quite late really
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  Speaker 1: with girls it usually is say maybe twelve to about eighteen.
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  Speaker 1: So the number of complaints we know about are only
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  Speaker 1: those whose children went to a parent or a school,
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  Speaker 1: often who then went to police. So how many times
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  Speaker 1: is this happening today that you and I don't know
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  Speaker 1: about but parents don't know about either.
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  Speaker 2: It's the kind of thing where you just think, how
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  Speaker 2: is this happening like? And one thing that stands out
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  Speaker 2: to me is like on parental guidance, when we did
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  Speaker 2: the child safety online issue with the kids playing a
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  Speaker 2: game and being approached by a stranger, and we had
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  Speaker 2: the Australian Federal Police involved in that as well. The
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  Speaker 2: parents said to us, but we've had these conversations without
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  Speaker 2: we have talked to them about it. We can't believe
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  Speaker 2: that it's still happened. Why do you think that our
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  Speaker 2: between and teen girls and boys are being swept up
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  Speaker 2: in it? What is it about being online and having
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  Speaker 2: the experience? How do they get sex? Staughted like, why
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  Speaker 2: aren't they just saying no? Because my parents told me
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  Speaker 2: that this is a bad idea.
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  Speaker 1: So can I divide this between girls and boys? Because
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  Speaker 1: I think it is really really different.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, because the process would be different.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: A girl is not receiving a picture of a guy
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  Speaker 2: and saying, oh, now I need to send a picture
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  Speaker 2: of myself. Right, Girls and boys' brains work differently in
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  Speaker 2: this area, so it's got to be a different process.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So girls are sent a picture of another girl
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  Speaker 1: who has seen her public friendship list and she might say, oh, look,
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  Speaker 1: I think we know each other through netball, or I'm
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  Speaker 1: from this city. We have joint friends. None of our
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  Speaker 1: teens are saying no to joining up someone. So our
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  Speaker 1: girls are thinking they are talking to a.
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  Speaker 2: Peer, yeah, like a friend of a friend, a.
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  Speaker 1: Friend of a friend. Now the target is often a
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  Speaker 1: good girl, because it's normal to want to know about
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  Speaker 1: sex and things like that, but it's more difficult to
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  Speaker 1: ask your family or even to ask a friend face
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  Speaker 1: to face. If they're thinking they're talking about a friend
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  Speaker 1: of a friend and that friend of a friend sends
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  Speaker 1: a picture of her breast and says, do you think
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  Speaker 1: mina a bit odd or one's bigger than the other.
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  Speaker 1: Is that the same with you? This girl, the target
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  Speaker 1: is thinking, oh no, or mina a bit unusual tool
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  Speaker 1: or something, and she's sending it a picture of hers
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  Speaker 1: then back. And that's the point, which is quite innocent
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  Speaker 1: when and it is always a male in every case
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  Speaker 1: i've seen comes on and said look, I'm sorry. You know, no,
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  Speaker 1: they don't say I'm sorry. I'm in America, and this
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  Speaker 1: is what you will do now. And in relation to girls,
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  Speaker 1: they don't ask for money, They ask for more intimate pictures.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, justin let me just say, I will
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  Speaker 1: never forget sitting listening with police to I feel like crime,
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  Speaker 1: listening to one video where and I've put this in
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  Speaker 1: Saving Our Kids, where a girl is playing with a
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  Speaker 1: hairbrush in her room sexually on the orders of someone online.
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  Speaker 1: Her mum is about four meters away on the other
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  Speaker 1: side of the door, calling her for dinner. Now, this
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  Speaker 1: person who was a male who police believe is in
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  Speaker 1: America because of his accent. They believe the girl is
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  Speaker 1: in Australia because of the couple of words she said,
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  Speaker 1: but they can't find either. And I think she sent something.
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  Speaker 1: Then she was too scared to go out and say
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  Speaker 1: I've been sex torted. And once you do one thing,
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  Speaker 1: it's hard then not to do BC and D with boys.
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  Speaker 1: It's exactly as you say. But you know the Nigerian
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  Speaker 1: bride scams and money scams and dating scams, they've just
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  Speaker 1: moved to sex scams targeting our teen boys. So they
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  Speaker 1: are set up in the Ivory coast of Nigeria and
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  Speaker 1: the Philippines. These call centers, they give locals bonuses and
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  Speaker 1: money to ensnare Australian kids.
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  Speaker 2: It's so warped. Like I'm sitting here, Madonna, and I
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  Speaker 2: just can't I literally cannot conceive of the mentality of
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  Speaker 2: people who like you said they're set up in call centers.
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  Speaker 2: These are professional operations, right, It's not like there's obviously
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  Speaker 2: there are some there's too many perverts and creeps and
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  Speaker 2: widows who are out there who are trying to do
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  Speaker 2: this thing as well. But this is happening at an
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  Speaker 2: industrial scale.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, so the boys is the boys of the core center.
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  Speaker 1: The girls are the online sex predators. Right, totally different,
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  Speaker 1: totally different criminals.
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  Speaker 2: Because the money is in the boys. Right, you can
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  Speaker 2: get your bitcoin and you can get you whatever you
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  Speaker 2: need with the money.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's often we have had suicides as a
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  Speaker 1: result of this that are not reported. One boy was
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  Speaker 1: ordered to send ten thousand dollars and if they say no,
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  Speaker 1: the AFP told me that they are asking them to
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  Speaker 1: set up a bank account in their name that's say
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  Speaker 1: Brisbane or Sydney or Melbourne. And Australia is becoming what
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  Speaker 1: did they call it, the middle ring of a money
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  Speaker 1: laundering operation where money is launded through these kids' accounts
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  Speaker 1: back to Africa or the Phillipps.
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  Speaker 2: So the kids just set up like a direct deposit sort.
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  Speaker 1: Of scheme and other money is sent through that. So
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  Speaker 1: this is happening at so many layers and you know,
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  Speaker 1: can I give two tips now before we even go on.
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  Speaker 1: You know, John Rowse said to me, not one photo
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  Speaker 1: he's ever seen has been taken outside a bedroom or
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  Speaker 1: a bathroom. So if you are listening to Justin and me, now,
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  Speaker 1: why the hell are we allowing any child? Why do
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  Speaker 1: we even have our phones in a bedroom or a bathroom?
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  Speaker 1: Because this makes it really difficult for children to do
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  Speaker 1: pictures like that. The second thing is, don't confiscate their
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: mobile phone because when I ask children, why don't you
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: walk out and tell Mum or Dad, they fear I'll
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: take their phone off them. We've got to make sure
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  Speaker 1: our kids come out and say we stuffed up by
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: telling them how we stuff up all the time, and
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  Speaker 1: then they know that if they stuff up, it's not
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  Speaker 1: the end of the world. They can come out Now. Job,
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  Speaker 1: surely as parents and carers is to provide their backstop
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  Speaker 1: and get them help, and that is to then go
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  Speaker 1: to police.
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  Speaker 2: Madonna, when you were talking to John, what did he
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  Speaker 2: say most parents do when they find out about this.
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  Speaker 2: What's the standard response from parents?
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  Speaker 1: The problem is most parents don't find out about it.
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  Speaker 1: I know a Brisbane school is now dealing with several cases.
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  Speaker 1: A Sydney school several cases involving girls. The Brisbane school
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  Speaker 1: involves boys. And in all of those cases one hundred
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  Speaker 1: percent of them it was to a school guidance counselor
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  Speaker 1: a teacher or a deputy principal. And so I think
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  Speaker 1: most parents that I know have done the right thing
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  Speaker 1: and gone to police, because you cannot deal with this yourself.
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  Speaker 1: You can protect your child and talk to your child
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: and look after your child. I think the problem is
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: at the other end, where four in five parents say
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  Speaker 1: there is no likelihood of this happening to their child.
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  Speaker 1: Ninety seven percent do not list online grooming as a
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: concern now. Bruce Morecambe, who lost his son, recently had
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: his grandson an attempt at grooming, who was playing roadblocks.
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  Speaker 1: He is six years old and he's in the back
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: of the car and he says, Pop, why does let's
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: call him Christopher? Why does Christopher keep talking to me
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: on my game? And Bruce Morecambe said his blood went cold.
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  Speaker 1: He's lost his son and he's thinking what the hell
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  Speaker 1: And he went back through the history and it is
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: the one person just offering his grandson advice on how
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: to play roadblocks and trying to contact him on a
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: regular basis. He was being groomed. So it's these little
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  Speaker 1: things from chat functions, abilities to access your child on
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  Speaker 1: public friendship lists. The access is through so many different
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: ways that I think if I was I have two daughters,
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  Speaker 1: they've just left school, but if they were thirteen or
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  Speaker 1: nine or fifteen now, we would be having an entirely
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  Speaker 1: different conversation. The phone is there. How do we protect
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  Speaker 1: our child from not what our children do, which is
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: what the public narrative is, don't do this, be kind,
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  Speaker 1: do that, but how we can protect them from other
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  Speaker 1: people approaching them via computer games or chat functions or
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: through sextortion. And that's a different conversation justin than the
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: one we're having in Australia about how we treat each
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  Speaker 1: other on social media. Does that make sense?
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  Speaker 2: Just you know, I'm sitting here. It makes I'm half
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  Speaker 2: crying and I'm half looking for a punching bag to
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  Speaker 2: hit because it makes me so mad that our kids
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  Speaker 2: just can't be kids, that there are so many people
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  Speaker 2: with dark designs that are doing this. I want to
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: do a summary here. Our time is all but up,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: and I feel like we could talk about this for
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: the next three days. The summary is as follows, and
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  Speaker 2: you tell me if I've gotten anything wrong. First off,
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  Speaker 2: there are people out there with evil designs for our children.
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  Speaker 2: Our sons are being targeted for money. They're usually being
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  Speaker 2: targeted by somebody pretending to be somebody that they're not
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  Speaker 2: getting an image and then chasing dollars and extorting them
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: or sex storting them that way. Our daughters are being
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: targeted for imagery. Somebody pretends to be a friend of
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: a friend, brings them into their confidence and gets an image,
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  Speaker 2: and then starts the pursuit of more and more images
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  Speaker 2: the sex stortion.
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  Speaker 1: Which they then just spread across the dark web around
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  Speaker 1: the world forevermore.
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  Speaker 2: The next thing that we've talked about is the simple
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  Speaker 2: reality that there are people who have awful intentions who
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: are literally on every platform, it's not like there's one
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  Speaker 2: that's safer than any other, who are trying to contac
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: tacked out children in all kinds of helpful ways, pro
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: social ways, so that they can build trusts and move
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: them onto other platforms and treat them abusively actually abuse them.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: The book is called Saving Our Kids. It's been written
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: by Madonna King and Inspector John Rouse. Madonna. As we
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: wrap up, I'm going to ask you to restate the
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: tips that you've given, plus any others. You've got children
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: who have just left school, but if they were going
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: into grade five, grade six, or even grade two or
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: grade three, and certainly if they are in high school now,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: I want to know what you would do differently based
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: on what you've learned saving our kids.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: They would not have a smartphone until they're thirteen. They
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: would not be on social media until it was permitted,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: and with my guidance, they would never have a phone
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: in their bedroom or their bathroom. They would not have
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: any public list of friends. And I would work day
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: or night asking myself this question. If they made a
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: mistake and god in trouble, how have I dealt with
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: them so that they would come out and say Mum,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: or go to their dad and say I stuffed up.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: I really need your help.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: I'm sitting here almost weeping as you talk about this,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: because it just doesn't seem right. That last point that
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: you've made for me is the essential one. Yeah, We've
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: got to have the relationship with our kids where they
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: know that they can come to us and we've got
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: their back. And hopefully parents have listened to our conversation
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: now Madonna, hopefully they'll go and buy your book, Saving
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Our Kids. But hopefully after listening to this, they'll re
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: listen with their kids and talk about it and just say,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: can you please, can you please please talk to me
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: if anything ever happens, you need to know that I'm safe.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm looking for, that's what I want more of.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: The book is called Saving Our Kids, Saving Our Kids
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: by Madonna King. It's out today. You can find it
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: wherever you buy books online, in store, Saving our Kids.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Please buy it. Please have the conversation with your kids,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: maybe even read it with them, especially if they're a
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: little bit older. It's just so important. Madonna, thank you
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: so much for the important work you do. I'm so
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: grateful for this conversation. I wish we could keep it going.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: But good luck with the book, and let's hope that
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: we actually do save a whole lot of kids because
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: of this conversation and because of what you bring.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Thanks Justin.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. Go On
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: by the book Saving Our Kids Madonna King and Inspector
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: John Rouse. If you want more information about keeping your
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: kids safe, I'm not going to send you to Happy
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Families right now, although we've got a whole lot of
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: resources there. Have a look at the e Safety Commissioner's website,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: have a look at the book. Do something to keep
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: your kids safe.