Latest / Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman / Cutting Through with Whitney Simon

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Cutting Through with Whitney Simon · Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman

0:14
Welcome to Cutting Through with me, Natasha Ploughman.
0:17
Today I have the great pleasure to have Whitney Simon on the
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podcast. We're going to cover lots of
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areas from inclusion to sustainability to areas which I
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personally find incredibly fascinating, but also incredibly
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fractious at the moment. So what more could we want to
0:32
talk about with Cutting Through than those two areas?
0:35
So welcome Whitney. Let's first get a little bit of
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an overview of who you are, what makes you tick, and let's
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introduce yourself. Yeah, of course.
0:43
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited about this.
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So my name is Whitney Simon. My background is in public
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relations and communications. As you'll probably hear, I don't
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have a lovely British accent or really cool Aussie accent.
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I have an American accent. I moved to London about 7 years
0:59
ago while from San Francisco and my focus was predominantly BDB
1:04
tech. And I think through doing a lot
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of that work, it really reinforced my passion for D and
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I because I think we talk about all of this cutting edge
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technology that's going to change the world.
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And yet I saw so many examples of where people of colour or
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people from marginalised backgrounds were included in
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that conversation about how tech could change the world.
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And I thought that was really important.
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And it fueled a lot of my focus in PR and comms.
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And it got to a point earlier this year where I was like, I
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really want to focus on diversity, equity and inclusion
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from a communications perspective.
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And I launched Anchor and Flow and it's just been like a really
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exciting whirlwind since then in terms of my values.
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I think a lot of the times, and maybe this is a cultural thing,
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we put so much importance on what we do as a job and then we
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forget about who we are as people.
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And I'm like this person who's driving a bus or who's busing a
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table, like that is not who they are.
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That's how they put food on the table.
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They still deserve the same respect whether you're a
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solicitor or a CEO of a business.
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That really annoys me. Like someone who is super rude
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to service staff. I'm like, I'm out.
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Another thing that gives me the ick is people who take advantage
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of others. It's just not for me, not the
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vibe. And I guess it that kind of ties
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into my values of just being compassionate.
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The world is a really hard, scary place, and I think we need
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more compassion, empathy, equality, obviously transparency
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and vulnerability. I think there's often this
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expectation that, and I have this expectation that as you get
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older, you're just supposed to know everything and nothing
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shakes you. And I'm like, what?
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What are you talking about? I'm not an adult.
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I don't know what I'm doing. I turned 50 last year and I
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still got no idea about how the thing I'm still thinking about
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what I'm going to do when I grow up.
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But that's also a big part of ageism, is that people have this
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assumption that either of where you're supposed to be, of what
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you're supposed to be doing. And fundamentally, this is all
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about other people's assumptions and other people's judgement as
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well, which just don't help anyone.
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I'm completely there with you on that one.
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So I'm sorry if you think when you get older, you finally know
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what you wouldn't do. You grow up.
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It's just a journey that keeps going and that's the joy of it.
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Genuinely, I try to remind myself of that because I'm like,
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by the time my mom was my age, she had two kids and I was like,
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I'm a child. So I'm just, I'm writing.
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I'm banking on vibes alone doing what I can.
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Do whatever makes do, that's it, whatever makes people happy.
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And I think a big part of communications for me is a lot
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of the training that I do is really getting people to know
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themselves, who they are and why they do some of the things that
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they do. Because when and you understand
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that about yourself, then you become such a better
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communicator. And I think this is a really
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important part of the conversation around diversity
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and inclusion. And you posted something a
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couple of weeks ago, which I loved because it really
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acknowledged the fear that different people have in having
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these conversations. They're scared about saying the
4:12
wrong thing. They're scared about offending
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people or not, or they want to have that device.
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And we're going to have that conversation as well.
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And I'd like to understand what your perspective of where does
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that fear come from to almost say nothing because you don't
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want your, you're worried about how it's going to be perceived
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and how can we tackle that? Yeah, I think this happens
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across industries and across society as a whole.
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But I think with public relations and communications
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specifically, a lot of it is about optics, right?
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It's about that perception. We can't, we want to come across
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as experts, we want to come across as well versed, educated,
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whatever. And I think there is this idea
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that in order to come across that way, you have to know
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everything. You can't have any areas where
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maybe you're not as fluent or not as skilled at.
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And so it creates this kind of culture, which I've seen a lot
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of in comms where it's just you have people performing this like
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expertise and to a detriment because they're like, Oh, if I
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don't perform this, then people won't respect me.
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And yet I, I'm like, as I've come up in comms, the leaders
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that I remember, the leaders who had such a tangible impact on me
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were the ones that were like, listen, I messed up.
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Like I messed this up. I didn't have the information.
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I actually don't know that. Let's bring in other people.
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I'm going to do some more learning.
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And I think it's definitely defined my brand of leadership
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because I think a lot of the times also in D and I, it's like
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you're a D and I expert. And I love to say I'm like, no,
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I'm not. I'm an expert in my lived
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experience of being a black queer woman who's lived in the
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US and the UK, and I am constantly trying to learn more
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about diversity in all its different ways, shapes and
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forms. So understanding what it is to
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be black British in this country, what is that
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experiencing experience like? Understanding what it is the
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experience of trans folks, especially trans folks of
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colour, like people who are migrants and having to deal with
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just anti migrant sentiment that's taking over.
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Like my whole passion and purpose in this life is to learn
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as much as possible. And I think when you look at it
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from that perspective, not a less than I'm not smart enough,
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but more of AI actually don't know that.
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Let me do the work to learn more without this fear of they come
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across as ignorant or whatever. It just creates so much more
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opportunity. And that's actually what I think
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is an effective leader, someone who's willing to be like,
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listen, I'll put my hands up, I don't know, but I'm going to
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learn. No, I love that.
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And I think that's a really important thing for people to
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remind themselves. It's not even leadership, it's
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just being a human being as well.
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That too. And this is a big part of what
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like Break the Silence was created to do, was to just have
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those conversations, have those open, difficult, messy,
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vulnerable conversations to listen to other people's lived
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experience and not make judgements on them as well.
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Because what we found with the research was that there was a
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still people were stopping themselves from having the
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conversations or asking the questions they wanted to ask.
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Because to you what you're saying, they didn't want to seem
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ignorant. They didn't want to seem like
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they didn't know what they were talking about.
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They didn't want to cause offence because of their own
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lack of knowledge. And they all and then other
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people didn't want to feel safe to share their lived experience
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and be able to and everyone's lived experiences, as you said,
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their lived experience. That doesn't mean that it
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automatically equates to someone else's.
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And there's nothing that drives me out the wall more when you
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see when people say you're wrong because that wasn't my
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experience and you're like, I'm not wrong because this is where
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I'm at. Doesn't make yours any less
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valuable. But let's have the conversation
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about where that could be different.
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And before we get on some of the work stuff, what we're seeing in
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the world at the moment, people just listening to each other,
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they're getting stuck in their tribes of performance.
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And a lot of it, some of it can be really quite performative
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around either what people are doing or saying.
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But it's not building bridges, it's not Austrian collaboration,
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it's not allowing people to. And again, I love that term of
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share their lived experience in a kind of a Safeway.
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So can you see any light at the end of the tunnel?
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Have you got a crystal ball that we're going to come out at this
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time, at the moment? Make it be basically.
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Not how I wish. I do think this is something
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that I've seen in a lot of my reverse coaching sessions.
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And the model is more like, I think executives right now, it
8:44
can be really tough because let's be honest, the market
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isn't great, right? And so a lot of business owners
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are just trying to figure out how can I keep the company
8:52
afloat? How can I try to scale like I
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had all these ambitions, like, how can I do that in this
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market? And I think because of that,
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there is even more pressure of being like, I know everything,
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I'm going to get us through this tough time.
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And so the whole reverse coaching model was to give like
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executives an opportunity to talk to someone with lived
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experience and when outside of the organisation where they can
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have that safe space to share. I don't know, like I want to
9:17
learn more. I want to have these open and
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honest conversations. And a lot of the time in these
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sessions, there's this one bit of advice that I give that
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actually alleviates a lot. And I think the bit is like
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decentering yourself. Like even in what you were
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saying, we have these conversations where it's, I
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don't want to say anything because I don't want to offend.
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I don't want to say anything because I don't know.
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I don't want to say anything because like, I'm going to come
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across as this. And in all of that, it's about
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I, you're not actually thinking about the other person.
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I as a, as a black woman, I don't expect you to know
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everything that I know about being black because I'm black.
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That's my whole exit. It is what it is.
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But what I expect to expect in the conversation, like in a
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conversation with the true ally is, hey, I recognise that this
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thing that I did was problematic, made you feel
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uncomfortable. I'm incredibly sorry.
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I'm going to do the work to learn more and I will never do
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that again. That is actually centering me
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and showing me that you're not so caught up in like everything
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about you. You're actually focused on
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learning and growing from the opportunity.
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And I think when I, I do have hope because when you have those
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conversations with people and they're open and receptive to
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it, I do see a switch because people are just like, oh, you're
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right. Like I've spent so much time
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focusing on how I don't want to come across as a racist or a
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bigot or this or that. I haven't even actually thought
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about the people that I'm talking to like this person
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who's in front of me right now. I think that brings down that
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barrier and makes learning and opening and connecting and
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having those different difficult conversations so much easier.
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So I recognise that was long winded, but I do have hope.
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I think people who are really willing to sit with themselves
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and listen and hear and be open, I think they do.
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They can change and that's what we need to see to.
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Move forward. Absolutely.
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And it is. And it's also when you call
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someone out or you say look, that could be interpreted this
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way. Did you wreck?
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Did you recognise what you were saying or how you are portraying
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different people? That could be a stereot.
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It could be a stereotype that's harmful for people or wasn't
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opening up a conversation. And you know, and obviously we
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break the silence. A lot of the focus we have is on
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gender and it's intersectional and the and the gender issues.
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But we're also we're big thing for me is the platforms.
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We're platforming people and we and I have this sneaking
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suspicion and I would love to get some evidence to anyone out
11:48
there who would like to do some research on this around who
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amplifies who. I, I have this suspicion that a
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lot of men amplify men or they definitely have a blind spot
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around the people who they know and who they talk about and who
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they amplify tend to be more people like them.
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And there is a active work that needs to be done to seek
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different voices and seek different viewpoints and seek
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different lived experiences as a way of someone views a
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particular issue. And and I did call someone out
12:15
in a recently, but not in an attacking way.
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And just this might be a bit of a blind spot.
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This is something you may be just because these are the same
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people that you always talk to and refer to.
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There are a whole group of other women and women of colour and
12:30
men of colour and different people who are speaking about
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this particular issue. And it wasn't AI that you could
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be drawing on as well. And this person got it straight
12:38
away. And that was allyship.
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He was a bit, ah shit, yeah, I get it.
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But then he was like, I'm going to do better.
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And I've seen everything he's done since has been he's
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actively sought different voices.
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But other times people do it in attacking way and then you get
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defensiveness and then you get people just getting stuck in
12:56
their own viewpoint and to your point, because they're putting
12:59
themselves in the centre of what they're talking about.
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I'd love to share your kind of aspiration of hope, but I think
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hope comes with ongoing connection, dialogue and
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conversation. I think again, that's what you
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know, for Break the Silence and all the other forms that people
13:12
are part of can do to do a lot more of.
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Absolutely. Thank you for that.
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That's really interesting. But the other area that we're
13:20
also interested in talking about is intergenerational things.
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And I think one of the things we want to talk about is how you
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did do your work on inclusion to have an intergenerational
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understanding and reaching the ever elusive, the ever
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homogeneous group that is called Gen Z, which is obviously
13:37
complete sarcasm for everyone, because I do, I find the
13:40
generational stereotypes that people have fascinating, but
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they are stereotypes. They are useful in some ways of
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grouping people. And I was at a, I did a post
13:48
about that recently. But tell me about what we were
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doing around particularly. We have this view that all Gen Z
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people are there to save the planet and they're going to be
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the kind of savour of the world. And yet words and deeds don't
14:00
necessarily match up, and they're a cohort of people which
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we need to understand a little bit more.
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So tell me about this project that you worked on for that.
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Yeah. So I at my previous agency, I
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was working with a client who had really strong ambitions when
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it came to ESG. And one of the key things that
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they wanted to focus on was targeting Gen Z.
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And so I think, again, as I said before, what I find really
14:25
interesting about tech or just any industry is like the
14:28
conversations around inclusion and equity within them, 'cause
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there's always that conversation.
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And I noticed that with a lot of the campaigns we were doing
14:35
around sustainability, it felt very geared toward older white
14:40
middle class folks and not actually targeted towards Gen Z.
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But then even deeper than that, it felt like it was very kind of
14:49
western, that Western take on sustainability.
14:53
And I was thinking and I was like looking at my Instagram
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feeds, doing the literature and recognising that sustainability
15:01
has just become this umbrella term that people just use it to
15:03
paint whatever. And so it's, oh, I'm sustainable
15:05
because I have this 50 LB like water bottle.
15:08
But then we're not talking about what about sustainability for
15:11
folks from lower income backgrounds.
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Like that conversation looks a bit different.
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And so with this campaign, I was like, OK, we need to have, if
15:21
we're really trying to create a campaign that's going to speak
15:24
to Gen Z, but it's also going to speak to the diversity of folks
15:27
within Gen Z. We really need to make sure that
15:30
we're doing something that's not about bells and whistles, but
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it's about platforming someone in their age group and or in
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their demographic who speaks the language that they speak.
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And part of that was engaging with someone who the
15:44
organisation would probably deem as like more of an activist than
15:47
an influencer. And that influencer's name is
15:50
Tori Sui Sui Sui. I should double check how to
15:53
pronounce that. And she's an incredible activist
15:56
who talks about all the ways that when it comes to
15:59
sustainability, we have to be intersectional.
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Like the Global North has a disproportionate impact on the
16:07
actual carbon emissions. And yet it's the global S that
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is dealing with the ramifications of that.
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And we do not talk enough about that.
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And also just talking about how a lot of capitalism is fueling a
16:20
lot of this climate change. And so this was an influencer
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who, while they wanted to work on the campaign, they also were
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very open about, I'm going to be open and honest about how I feel
16:31
about corporations, capitalism, those who are performative and
16:35
their sustainability acts. And my client was nervous, was
16:39
rightfully nervous. They're pretty conservative
16:41
organisation. They have a lot of rules in
16:43
terms of like how the brands should be promoted.
16:46
But ultimately I was saying to the client, you want to meet
16:49
this group and this group is one of the most discerning groups
16:54
that you have as a consumer. They see through bullshit.
16:57
They will call you out if you're trying to peddle bullshit to
17:01
them. And so it was really important.
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I was like, if this is something you're genuine about, you're
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going to have to. We're going to have to find
17:08
compromises on both sides, but you're going to have to open up
17:10
yourself to those difficult, somewhat uncomfortable
17:13
conversations. Yeah, that in itself is that
17:16
whole notion of living in the uncomfortable, living in the
17:21
being challenged again, back to your turn around lived
17:23
experience, living in what your assumptions that you have.
17:26
And what why is it we seem at the moment that we get so stuck
17:31
in? And is it ego, which largely it
17:35
seems to be or not having your opinion challenged or not having
17:40
your what you assume to be true as being something that can have
17:45
a different if you just change the perspective of it.
17:48
What does it look like from that perspective and what empathy is
17:51
meant to be? And but it just see, it just
17:55
seems to be that we're just stuck at the moment and not
17:58
being able to have those conversations and build bridges.
18:00
So it's fascinating that a company and I mean, I've worked
18:02
in sustainability in in some various guises for a long time
18:05
and it does become a very siloed conversation because people
18:10
don't want to take risks. They don't want to hear things
18:12
that may question the assumption they've got, and they don't want
18:15
to hear that people may not think that everything is
18:18
amazing. And This is why the whole issue
18:21
of sustainability needs to come out of a communications world,
18:24
and it needs to be about fundamental transition and
18:28
change. It isn't about performance, it
18:31
isn't about a tick box, it is about really seeing the impact
18:35
that you have on people and planet that we're not having
18:39
those conversations with. So good.
18:42
Kudos to them that they challenge that.
18:44
So what? How did it end?
18:45
What was the outcome that happened?
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Do they feel like that they had learnt and changed and did
18:49
something differently on the back of it?
18:51
Yeah, they did. I think there was a lot of back
18:53
and forth late night calls with my client was just like, yes, I
18:57
understand this feels a bit more bold in terms of the messaging.
19:00
But we did agree to do this with this spokesperson.
19:03
And in the end, the campaign came out and I was just so proud
19:07
because seeing the comments on Instagram and there were some
19:10
that were challenging, OK, but this organisation has
19:13
contributed to this. But there were also a lot of
19:16
organisations where it's, it's really great to see a brand
19:18
like, tackle this in a way using language that, like, speaks to
19:22
us and shows that they understand that this isn't just
19:24
a trend. And I also think it just opened
19:27
them up. Like, I feel as though with
19:29
comms campaigns, when you're using influencers or talent, you
19:32
usually use the same talent who are young, affluent white folks.
19:37
And it's OK. But there's so many people
19:40
within this space that are trying to have real
19:42
conversations about sustainability.
19:45
Why aren't we giving them a platform?
19:47
And it's exactly to your point, it's like, we just want to focus
19:50
on the people that we've had a positive experiences with
19:53
before. Yeah.
19:54
So we want to keep going with those same voices, but then it's
19:57
like we're creating that whole silo and you don't even realise
20:01
it 'cause you're just like, it has nothing to do with anything
20:03
other than I've worked with them before, I know that they're
20:04
doing really great work and all this other stuff, but there are
20:07
other people outside of this kind of space or not outside of
20:10
this space who are different backgrounds who are also doing
20:13
really incredible work. And this is a probably the great
20:16
time to where we met and where we started talking about is the
20:20
platform that myself and Neil Kleiner are taking over called
20:24
antiquota.com, which was the whole premise of it is to
20:29
diversify the access and the availability of speakers,
20:33
experts, thought leaders, whatever that term means thought
20:36
leaders and and then but have a diversity of thinking and lived
20:40
experience. And what annoys me sometimes is
20:43
like women have to speak about women's issues, Black people
20:45
have to speak about black issues, where actually it's the
20:48
lived experience on all the issues that we want to get that
20:52
diversity of thought coming in. So anti quoted is going to be
20:55
ramping up and fantastic. You'll hopefully be involved in
20:58
that one. But it's such a necessary thing.
21:01
There are so many lists of diverse speakers, but everyone
21:04
else says I don't know where to find them.
21:06
I don't know if they can speak. I don't know if they're if
21:09
they've got the experience. And that's what we're trying to
21:11
solve with that one. And I suppose another area that
21:14
we can really focus on is purity of perfection.
21:18
Everything has to be perfect. We can't say anything or put our
21:22
head above the parapet unless we've got everything perfect.
21:26
Part of that is, I suppose in Australia we had this with the
21:29
tall poppy syndrome. I don't know if that kind of
21:31
translates across areas where if you're seen as too big, too
21:34
popular to doing too well, then you'll be dragged down.
21:38
But we're seeing it all the time and people fear of saying
21:41
everything and then that whole point of vulnerability.
21:44
So how do we create a climate where we don't have What about
21:49
ISM all the time? And this is the other thing, is
21:51
you say something, but what about this or what about that?
21:54
The purity of everything you have to have done.
21:56
So what do you think we can do differently to get us past that?
22:01
I think there is a lot of power in being able to sit with
22:06
yourself and reflect on why does this make me feel so
22:08
uncomfortable? And if we're being honest, down
22:11
to basics, it's just like we don't like to feel out of
22:14
control. We don't like to feel out of
22:16
control. We don't like to feel out of our
22:17
depth. Yet those are two just
22:19
fundamentals of being a human in this world.
22:23
I think personally I feel as though there's a lot of struggle
22:27
with that when you are coming from like a majority group, so
22:32
like a non marginalised group because I think society has been
22:35
crafted in a way where it feels as though everything does work
22:38
in your favour. You are like positioned or
22:41
platform to get access to these different opportunities
22:44
etcetera. Whereas folks from marginalised
22:46
backgrounds, like that's not the world we came up in.
22:49
So I do feel as though those folks have a higher level and
22:53
not appetite, but patience for being uncomfortable because
22:58
that's just the state that we're always in whether we want it or
23:00
not. But I also think there is so
23:02
much power in it because it helps you to recognise that.
23:05
Like it's only in those moments where you're uncomfortable,
23:08
where you feel out of your depth, depth where real growth
23:11
happens. And I also think like when we're
23:14
thinking about stories, the stories that resonate the most
23:17
with me aren't the ones that have a pretty perfect ending.
23:20
The stories that resonate with me are the ones where it's, it's
23:22
really murky. It's really nuanced.
23:25
At the end of it, you are left feeling like, oh wow, there
23:28
wasn't a perfect resolve. It's the person being like, I
23:32
still have so much more to learn and grow, but I'm appreciative
23:35
of where I've been. And I think we need to get back
23:38
to that in communications because right now it feels it's
23:41
almost moving towards like AUS centred type of comms approach
23:45
where it's like everything has to be shiny big teeth,
23:48
everything is great and it's but that's.
23:51
Not real life. That's that's.
23:53
Not. Real life, and this is my.
23:55
Know. That, and this is my real worry
23:58
with particularly technology, it's creating this homogenised
24:02
view of the world that hasn't brought in the diversity of
24:06
thinking and experience into it. So it is reflecting the people
24:12
who run it and own it. And you know, and so many times
24:15
we're it's almost like we're sleepwalking into it.
24:18
We're having these debates and these conversations are
24:20
particularly about technology and the rise of they are, but
24:24
then we're not challenging it enough to change course in a way
24:29
that enables that technology to be fundamentally more inclusive
24:35
of the people who are going to use it.
24:37
And this is what I don't understand.
24:39
We just have this phrase, you have to reflect your customer
24:42
base. AI and technology doesn't
24:45
reflect its customer base. It still reflects a vision of
24:49
the owner rather than the customer.
24:52
So there might be more we can do or should we do more around
24:57
using our financial power to change the system more.
25:01
But I feel as if people have just been someone who posted
25:04
recently, fantastic thinker on this, Alfie Roberts around that
25:09
we've just been the ease and the convenience is trumping, forgive
25:14
the word, everything. So we're almost sleepwalking
25:19
into this idea of ease and convenience rather than
25:22
complexity and nuance and messy, which is human.
25:26
And that's what makes us human. And that's what I love about
25:29
what we're doing with anti quoted, what we're doing with
25:31
break the silence. What you're doing with Anchor
25:33
and Flow and all the work and the conversations you're having
25:37
is human and messy, and that's fine.
25:41
So I wonder how we can make that bolder and stronger and more
25:46
pervasive and break that fear down.
25:49
So do you think there's other ways or other things that we
25:51
could be doing to do that? I think exposure therapy, if I'm
25:56
being honest, put yourself in those situations where you do
26:00
feel uncomfortable because there's a lot of learning that
26:02
comes from discomfort. Go to those panel.
26:05
There's so many different industry events where you can go
26:07
to spaces that are focusing and championing voices of colour or
26:12
voices from marginalised backgrounds.
26:14
Go to those spaces, feel uncomfortable, understand why
26:17
you feel uncomfortable and then start doing the work to unpick
26:21
that. I think it sounds super basic,
26:24
but I ultimately feel as though, so if you're not able to sit
26:27
with yourself and acknowledge potentially the bias,
26:30
acknowledge the privilege that you have, there's not going to
26:33
be any change because you're still stuck in that bubble where
26:36
it's, I'd rather be perfect then actually make a change and grow.
26:41
Even if that growth means that someone calls me out or I
26:46
someone tells me that they feel insulted by me or something like
26:50
that. If you're not ready to have that
26:52
conversation, then quite frankly, you're not going to
26:54
make any change. You're still focused on you.
26:57
You're still focused on you're centering yourself.
26:59
You're not actually focusing on making change.
27:03
And I suppose the other bit is how do we build bridges against,
27:06
We're seeing the rise of nationalism, which is then
27:09
translating into more exclusion and more anger and divisiveness.
27:15
And there is often a big conversation around how do we
27:18
build bridges with people's? And that's their perspective,
27:20
their view, and how do we have those?
27:24
How do we make sure that we hear and understand the reasons why
27:29
people have those viewpoints, but we don't necessarily, but
27:33
how are we changing that? How do we change that perception
27:35
of view? Is there an opportunity that we
27:37
need to do? Because on the one hand, we can
27:39
go to the places if you're already susceptible to being an
27:43
ally or you already are an ally, but how do you build those
27:46
bridges with people who are opposing everything that you
27:49
stand for and who you are? That's a really good question
27:53
and to be honest, I think the answer lies with the ally group.
27:59
I think a lot of people of colour and marginalised folks,
28:02
this is not the time to be to look to them to try to create
28:07
those answers and solutions because quite frankly they're
28:10
terrified, they're tired, they're burnt out.
28:12
I think this is where this is when I'm like OK, show this
28:18
allyship because I think a lot of the time people like to use
28:20
the word Willy nilly. Allyship now is OK.
28:24
You have a Co worker who is showing some very nationalist
28:28
viewpoints. How can you engage them?
28:30
How can you have a conversation with them?
28:32
If you end up feeling unsafe then fair enough.
28:34
Like you're not going to be able to change everyone.
28:38
Change smarts starts really small, but ultimately I think
28:42
this is an opportunity for folks to do that work, to reflect, to
28:47
sit with themselves, and to actually put themselves out
28:50
there and not necessarily put themselves on the line, but
28:53
trying to create those solutions and think about those solutions
28:57
in a way that works for them and those communities.
29:00
It sounds really flippant, but I also think that there's a lot of
29:05
folks need to take responsibility.
29:07
If you want to claim the title, start doing the actions.
29:10
And there's so much literature, there's so many people on the
29:13
Internet, influencers who are providing those insights on how
29:17
to do that in a way that makes sense for you in your context,
29:20
in your circumstance. Let's use this opportunity to
29:24
grow and learn. Yeah, and I think that's that's
29:27
the perfect ending to finish our conversation, which of course
29:30
has just flown by. And I'm looking forward to
29:33
talking to you more and hearing more of what you're thinking.
29:35
And it's the essence of the conversation.
29:37
It's the essence of being uncomfortable.
29:40
It is absolutely about being human.
29:42
That will get us out of where we're at the moment.
29:45
So Whitney, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on
29:48
Cutting through. We've covered a lot of ground
29:50
and I look forward to hearing more from you in the near
29:52
future. Thank you so much for having me
29:55
Natasha. This has been fantastic.
29:57
Thank you.