Latest / Doug Reads With Friends / Ep 9: Do Hard Things, Favorite Teachers & The Longest Race (with Tammy Draughon)

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Ep 9: Do Hard Things, Favorite Teachers & The Longest Race (with Tammy Draughon) · Doug Reads With Friends

• Doug Cutchins: Hi, I'm Doug, and welcome to Doug Reads with Friends. In each episode of this podcast, a friend of mine picks a book, we both read it, and then we sit down and we talk about the book, about ideas, and about our lives. The book brings us together, but the friendship is the point. This podcast exists so I can stay connected to people I care about and make space for the kinds of meaningful conversations we don't always have time for. Thanks for joining us. today's podcast, I am talking with Tammy Draughon. I've known Tammy for close to 30 years now. We started off as teachers together in North Carolina and have stayed in touch since then. We have a lot in common. We're teachers, we're parents, we're runners. Wow, that was a fun conversation. I really enjoyed that. A difficult book in many ways to read emotionally, but I really appreciate Tammy choosing that and for the conversation that we had. We have not been able to have a conversation like that for a very, very long time. We're, think, big fans of one another, but not someone who I normally get to talk to. And I'm really grateful for Tammy for taking the time. And we have a wonderful conversation. I think you're really going to enjoy this. Tammy is an amazing person, an amazing teacher, an amazing coach. ⁓ And she's chosen a book ⁓ at the intersection a lot of the things we're both interested for us to talk about. So thanks for joining us. Thanks for being here. And I that you enjoy my conversation with Tammy Draughon to reconnect. One thing I didn't get to ask Tammy about that I think lots of people know Tammy for is that for many, many, years, her family has made the best Christmas cards. They are themed. They put a tremendous amount of time and energy and effort into it with costumes and poses. Always, always, always have looked forward ⁓ to Tammy's family. about the longest race. Christmas cards. Tammy, thanks again for coming on the podcast. early on in my career, I ended up at Enloe High School in Raleigh, North Carolina, where I was an AP US history teacher. And I was thinking about that a couple of years ago when I was filling out a form for a bank or something like that online and I needed a security answer. And it said, what's the last name of your favorite teacher from high school? I thought, that's interesting. I wonder if I'm the for any of my former students. And then I ⁓ no, because they had Tammy Draughon And so their answer is going to be Draughon for that question, because I think any student who's had Tammy Draughon as their physics teacher. Tammy Draughon: No! Doug Cutchins: is going to answer that she's their favorite teacher of all time. We got to teach together for a very short amount of time, both at Enloe High School in the late ⁓ 90s, but someone who I've thrilled to keep in touch with and get know as ⁓ a mom, as a runner, a fellow teacher, ⁓ as a friend, as now as a Music for Doug Reads with Friends provided by my friend, Eiren Caffall Eiren is a very talented artist and musician. Please check out her music Spotify. And you, Eiren, for providing your music for this podcast. I am so happy to have on the podcast. So Tammy, welcome to Doug Reads with Friends. You can follow Doug Reads with Friends Facebook, on on Instagram. post clips from each of our episodes. If you have questions or comments, please reach out to me ⁓ at dougreadswithfriends ⁓ gmail.com. Tammy Draughon: Thank you, Doug I'm really excited to be here. Actually, I would have said the opposite. I would have said everybody loved Mr. Cutchins Doug Cutchins: So you've been teaching now for 30 years, something like that. That's it for today's episode of Doug Reads with Friends. Here's my only request. I'd like to ask you to send this episode to one person, someone who would love this book, someone you've been meaning to reconnect with. Books bring us together. Conversations keep us there. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being my friend. Tammy Draughon: A long time. I did take a little bit of a, a break, but I did what I wanted while my children were ⁓ But I've teaching for all time, ⁓ Doug Cutchins: physics, physics, physics, or have you taught other things as well? Tammy Draughon: When the kids were little, I did a specialty, very small, very private ⁓ preschool. just really for my kids, so I brought in other kids so I could teach my kids. ⁓ That was very, it was very different, but actually it's the same thing. So maybe that's an insult to my physics students, or maybe it's an insult to small kids, I don't know, but it's really all the same. So if you can teach high school AP Physics, you can teach a really cool program. I just wanted to be my kid's first teacher. Doug Cutchins: That's very different. Tammy Draughon: that important to me. So I like I gave them a gift, maybe just gave myself a gift, but and then as as they were not quite so little I just went back to the classroom. Doug Cutchins: how is it the same? Because I would think teaching preschool, very small children and teaching 16, 17 year olds, ⁓ one of the toughest classes that kids typically take in high school. I could maybe guessing at what the overlap is, but I would struggle with it. ⁓ But you see it very clearly as connected. Tammy Draughon: do. me, ⁓ do I love ⁓ high school physics? I love it because you're You're helping to facilitate kids learning how to think at a higher level, right? when you're ⁓ young children, you're doing is you're them that their thinking process is important, ⁓ how they think and view things is ⁓ that they don't have to do things some sort of canned way. It's the same kind of thinking pattern you would have in high school. approach it from outside the box. Okay, approach your art from outside the box, approach reading from outside the box. It's the same kind of thinking pattern. If you can think critically as a small child, you can think critically as an older teenager, you can develop ⁓ about way you learn by having environment that fosters ⁓ that type learning. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Did you ⁓ you always wanted to be a teacher? Did you go into this straight out of college? Tammy Draughon: I wanted be a doctor and I was planning to be doctor. I really wanted to do neonatology. And I had a college professor at who said, ⁓ you would be a really great physics ⁓ And I howled with laughter. I thought, absolutely not. That is not what I'm in my And ⁓ then he said, what if we pay your ⁓ and you got a master's degree and ⁓ tried And I said, my first question was, how long would it take me? And he said, 12 months. I said, sure, ⁓ degree, I'll do that. I'll postpone medical And then did that, a master's degree, stayed and did a master's degree. And honestly, not ⁓ joke, a not anything. Two weeks into teaching ⁓ high school AP Physics, fell in love with kids, found my... passion, found my calling, whatever you want to call it, it was exactly where I needed to be and where I felt like I was fulfilling something really important. I never went to medical school. Doug Cutchins: I have a few friends, ⁓ who have been teachers for decades, is either the burnout factor, or having a feeling of kind of moving up in your career, which is important for a lot of people, but not important for ⁓ Did you ever consider a move into administration, a move into becoming a principal? what the fulfillment you get out of the classroom that keeps you there? Tammy Draughon: I'm person who commits. So when commit, I commit to the school, I commit to the kids. ⁓ I really invest in the students that I teach. It's not just something I say. I went back into the because ⁓ I truly ⁓ love ⁓ ⁓ physics. I love the science. I love the physics itself. But I love watching young people love physics ⁓ and into my classroom they're not to or that it's too hard ⁓ and leaving feeling like ⁓ that they really accomplished something ⁓ pretty That to me is a big ⁓ So there have been times when I considered teaching in a different environment, teaching at a different level. But love the relationship that I develop with high school kids by seeing them every day. I just love the fact that the kids that I work with are still young enough they don't even know what they're really good at. I to be part of that process. I get to be part of the process of saying, you're female you kick butt in science, ⁓ or you're and kick butt in science. I don't really care either way, but just to say, this is a really hard, hard subject ⁓ and look at you do now that you've been working really hard for this school year. And think that's how I... got into coaching too, just the whole commitment to kids. I don't want to be an administrator. I never want to be an administrator. don't want my daily job to be a job. I don't want to show up and do discipline. I don't want to show up and take care of those problems. I want to show up in a classroom of kids who want to be there, who want to learn. That's it. Doug Cutchins: OK, so you mentioned coaching. Let's talk about a bit, because I've known you ⁓ as a runner we've bonded over our ⁓ running for a time. You're a far better runner than I am. ⁓ But. Yeah, OK, ⁓ I ⁓ yeah, you run Boston every year Tammy Draughon: Okay, but you're an Iron Man. Doug Cutchins: said you commit to stuff. I commit to stuff as well. I just keep going. I'm not fast. I just keep going. But I was not but didn't see it coming when I don't remember how many years ago, suddenly on social media, you started about coaching and I said, ⁓ That's really cool. Tammy's going to start coaching. That's excellent. And then all of a sudden California State Coach of the Year ⁓ which has got to place you in one of the top coaches in the country a cross-country coach and track as well, right? So my Tammy first, congratulations. That's absolutely amazing. But can you just kind of talk about the move coaching, how you got and how that changes your relationship with your students? Tammy Draughon: you Yeah, it was COVID or coming out of COVID, the previous coach sent an saying they were moving and would stepping down. And I just had one of those moments. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: So this is only five or six years ago. You had not started coaching before five or six years. That's amazing. Tammy Draughon: Being a coach, running is my happy place, running is my personal, my, my self happy place. So I never really considered But just had the strongest feeling that. ⁓ these kids need me and I actually got an email from some kids I've taught quite a few of the good runners and I got an email that said would you please throw your name the hat ⁓ the coaching job we need somebody who really understands running. So did and they yes we we want you to be the ⁓ face this program. So I started as the head cross-country coach for boys and girls and we've very I've been very grateful. been, I've been very blessed. And ⁓ it's because I, ⁓ up one day and said I need to be a coach. It's because ⁓ woke up one day and said ⁓ need to support the kids that I care about on this campus and. Teaching is my priority, but I can also do the coaching. And what I love about it is I get to coach kids who would never be in my classroom. I work with a full, ⁓ full, ⁓ don't know, the whole gamut of kids on a campus, kids who would be in AP Physics, kids who wouldn't be in AP Physics. ⁓ have both, ⁓ levels who ⁓ on the team. Doug Cutchins: Have you worked with a coach much previously or are you self-coached as a runner? Tammy Draughon: I'm self-coached, which is interesting not to people, but I love the whole process of learning about running. ⁓ So been a student of running forever, ⁓ years years and years, ⁓ and not on the surface level of... should the workouts look like and what should the pacing get not just the the physical nuts and bolts but the the whole package the nutrition and the pre and the post and the how do you support yourself with and then how do you do all of that while you're a professional and a parent and do you make that all ⁓ So I feel like that as a coach, I coach the whole athlete. I don't just them for the hours that they're in practice. ⁓ It's all how do you, how do you... eat correctly, how do you sleep correctly, how do you recover, how do you do the pre and the post. So I feel that what ⁓ get ⁓ the coaching is that they get skills that they can use lifelong. they the program as ⁓ really great but athletes who can be great athletes their whole lives. Doug Cutchins: Yeah, I feel like that gets into what I want to ask next, which is kind of more about your coaching philosophy. Do you have a way to define that? I mean, you've talked about being inclusive of all the kids in the school. You've talked about it being holistic in nature. Are there other pieces that are really important to you? Tammy Draughon: I think my philosophy of coaching is that if you have a coach who the sport and who truly ⁓ looks and finds ⁓ your and points out to you, who ⁓ takes time have those conversations and tell you what you're capable of doing, I believe my philosophy pretty much like my teaching philosophy. We're gonna do this hard thing. We're gonna do this hard thing well, and I'm gonna be a positive source of information and encouragement, I will be there consistently, ⁓ % of the time ⁓ you as you work through figuring this out. That's ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Can you talk a little bit about gender dynamics of being a coach of both boys and girls? And this is, mean, starting to think a little bit about the book that we read together that you chose. But what is it like coaching high school boys versus high school girls? What do think that being a woman in coaching means? And how does that? ⁓ affect your approach to coaching? Tammy Draughon: Well, it's really interesting because ⁓ female, ⁓ a teacher, so that puts me in a category where there are ⁓ of women, right? But I'm a ⁓ teacher and I'm an ⁓ physics teacher, ⁓ that's little different ⁓ category teaching. And I've never had anyone... treat me differently or less than the physics realm. I've always been very respected for my ability to teach and my knowledge of physics. And that's unusual. I don't that all women have that experience, but that was my experience. And then walking into the coaching role, I don't know, I was fearless. I think I was fearless because I ⁓ clueless ⁓ this dynamic a little bit. ⁓ I've, ⁓ had some rude awakenings to begin with. There have been some interesting where ⁓ have that being female is not thought ⁓ as correct person be a head coach of a program, especially when you're head coaching boys. I've had some interesting ⁓ and not fun interactions, ⁓ but had wonderful interactions. all of those, my interactions with other females have always been fantastic. My interactions with other coaches. if I'm being honest, have been 90 % phenomenal and 10 % a little bit on the interesting side. I will say that at first people just sort of ignored me. Like, here's this female coach that's taking over this program and program can't possibly continue to thrive. It was almost like everybody was having a funeral for Great Oak High School cross country, like goodbye, they're gone. won't do anything else. That's nice that she took over. She has no experience. The end. I like challenge too. Kind of like, ⁓ please underestimate me. This is going to be super, ⁓ super fun. And so I just smile and I'm nice and you know, I'm the nice little head female coach who just says, can be friends until the starting line. ⁓ was It was rough me to it out. But coaching boys is really so much fun. High school boys are just ⁓ super fun creatures. boys usually don't a filter and ⁓ just whatever is in their head, which I appreciate. get honesty from them. ⁓ ⁓ I've had times when my boys team ⁓ is ⁓ excelling and better my girls Right now, my girls team is ⁓ ⁓ boys And so the differences are interesting to me and I don't want to stereotype school boys and girls, but high school boys ⁓ ⁓ fun, ⁓ filter, ⁓ work their butts off, I've had them have trouble with the fact that they have a female coach. I think part of it is ⁓ I'm to work and I'm there to work hard and I don't pull any punches, I don't have any problem interacting with them, so it's not, ⁓ I'm afraid of them, so. They tend to do well. the girls tend to be more the girls have a They have a filter. ⁓ But they're super focused. And right now, my girls the ⁓ best that ever had. These are the best girls that I've ever coached. So right now I have girls that light it up on the track this season. ⁓ going to do amazing things. We came in fourth in ⁓ in phenomenal competition in December this was a national field. So these girls are ⁓ really going places. So I like them both. I like the boys, I like the girls. And at this point, I'm taken seriously as a coach. I'm taken seriously as a coach of boys. I'm taken seriously as a coach of girls. For that, I'm really grateful. took a little bit to get there, but think we're good. Doug Cutchins: How has coaching impacted your own running? have you changed as a runner because of coaching others? Tammy Draughon: Well, there's nothing like a little pressure that your team knows you're running a race. I like my running to be a little bit private. And you kind of lose that ⁓ ⁓ are the coach. So sometimes I don't even tell them that I'm going to race somewhere because I... It's just a little bit more pressure. do think that it's funny because sometimes I'll be running, I actually have moments where if I'm ⁓ Boston, I give myself the pep talk that I give my runners. Or I say, okay, come on, Tammy, pull it together. You know what would tell your kids right now. This is ⁓ ridiculous. Do what supposed to do. ⁓ That's been fun. That's been really great. And I've run some of the fastest times I've run in ⁓ even my age, as I'm It's been really to train. So some of my are, ⁓ I mean, honestly, I getting up at 4 a.m. ⁓ running, making sure I could get the run in because hard ⁓ do that. My school days with coaching are usually 12 to 14 hour days. And trying to put my running in on top of that is really tricky. ⁓ There been some days that I would get up at 3 a.m. just so I could get the run in and then be at track meet that was gonna be 12 hours that day on a Saturday or something. So It's really tough, I get it done. Doug Cutchins: Is marathon your main distance that you're running now? Tammy Draughon: Marathon is my favorite, yeah. Doug Cutchins: Okay. And how many marathons a year are you running at this point? Tammy Draughon: Well, I've dealt with a couple of injuries in the last years. last unfortunately, only ran one. I like to run two. But this year, I'm Boston, and I'm hoping I'll also another ⁓ fall marathon. I just don't which one. The other problem is that when you coach, you have to be careful about you ⁓ race. They have to at the time in a season ⁓ for coaching. I have taken times when I've gone to that aren't ideal ⁓ the team just because I to get that particular ⁓ major or whatever, ⁓ but of the time I try to work around that. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: And so do you use Boston every year to qualify for Boston the next year? Are you one of those runners? Tammy Draughon: I mean So for me qualifying, I hate to say this out loud, because some runner is gonna throw something at me. It's not super hard for me to, sorry, I don't I just to be able to get it done. Like last year at Boston was my slowest Boston in a long time, and I was from a torn meniscus. So ⁓ I went Boston particularly well trained and still run a Boston qualifying time. Doug Cutchins: You Do you happen to remember, I was about to say the last time we saw one another, but it is not truly the last time we saw one another, the last time I saw you. Tammy Draughon: No, wait, you told me this, I got a message. Doug Cutchins: was at Boston 2024. I was about 1,200 meters from the finish line Tammy Draughon: Yes! Doug Cutchins: have video of you and I'm screaming your name, Tammy Draughon Tammy And you just motor right on by. I you've got 1200 meters left. You are locked in in that finish line mode. And you just went right past me, but I was very happy to see Tammy Draughon: ⁓ no! Doug Cutchins: Tammy, want to ask and we talk about this or not, but I know you ran Boston the year of the bombing. ⁓ And if my recollection is correct, you had some medical issues. You were in the medical tent and you were in the medical tent when the bombs ⁓ went ⁓ And just remember kind of hearing you ⁓ talk about a little bit on social media afterwards. I'm sure that was a very difficult event. If you don't want to talk about it, we don't have to talk about it. But Tammy Draughon: I did. ⁓ I'm totally fine now. Doug Cutchins: you carry that with you? How do you think about that? I mean, I imagine that was a traumatic day for you. Tammy Draughon: really was and it's easy for me to talk about now, but I've had years ⁓ process that, which ⁓ it years. ⁓ I had little bit of trouble that My nutrition was off. ⁓ and I was still figuring out my nutrition in marathons. Sometimes I would hit it really great and then sometimes I just struggled. ⁓ know this from endurance running, but ⁓ race really starts at mile 20. And that's ⁓ not cliche, it really does. I hit 20 and 21 and 22 and I just had this overwhelming feeling that I just needed to stop. I've never stopped. I don't stop. I'm not a stop runner. I go and I run hard and I try to run even splits. And so it was really strange and I had this very overwhelming feeling, you can't stop. And thought, this is weird. Why am I having this conversation in my own head right now? I don't But then the was very clear to me. ⁓ You need to your kids they can do hard things. And it was a bit of a, ⁓ like a wake up. ⁓ this is important for reason, this is important right this minute. Like you cannot stop. You ⁓ have to do hard I finished the race, but as soon as I finished the race and I stopped running, my body temperature plummeted. I went down ⁓ on the immediately, just crumpled. ⁓ they ⁓ wrapped me up in blankets, I like a hot dog, ⁓ but I didn't realize this, but they with me for like 20 minutes. So I had finished ⁓ long before the bombs went off, ⁓ I couldn't walk, ⁓ I couldn't my body temperature up, they got me ⁓ into the medical tent, which is right the finish line, and I was ⁓ on a, ⁓ bed at the door to medical tent ⁓ when first bomb went off. ⁓ And had a really very ⁓ calm That a bomb. And you're okay and okay. And Kevin was on the way to the finish line. ⁓ not long ⁓ after that, the second bomb went off. And I just that feeling again. It's a bomb. You're Kevin's OK. even told the nurses who were working on me ⁓ that was a bomb. Like that came of my mouth. I don't know why they didn't arrest me. ⁓ then but I was in the tent when everything happened. and I still couldn't walk, medical tent was eerily quiet. It I remember we've just become. emergency triage then somebody said the word stat and the next thing I know there are people in ⁓ front me very close to me who ⁓ don't ⁓ all their limbs ⁓ and who ⁓ very It's ⁓ ⁓ tv you just a noise ⁓ and You saw smoke and it was chaotic and very loud. It wasn't like that in the medical tent. In the medical tent, it was much a of people in shock and very injured with ⁓ medical taking good care of them. some doctor said, you need to go to the hospital. ⁓ My body was really low. I like, are you kidding me? You've got people to worry about that aren't me ⁓ right And ⁓ all a sudden, I just felt okay. ⁓ So actually jumped off table, ducked out the just so I escaped. then I got out into ⁓ complete chaos. outside but some really nice Boston lady could tell I was some lost runner she said I'll get you to the family meeting area. She with me to the family meeting area. found my husband ⁓ and then they cut communication to Boston. We got one call in to our kids elementary school and then that was it. So, but I went back next year and We took our kids so they could see Boston's a really cool place. And had dreams for a year somebody chasing in a marathon. ⁓ and I would turn around with my water bottle. So the water bottle I carry when I run. At the time this was a scary dream, but now it's kind of silly. So I would around and I would attack the person with my water bottle in the dream ⁓ time. And after a year I stopped having the dream and ⁓ my fell in love with Boston and I've ⁓ running since. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: there's other things that that have kind of ⁓ one has come up clearly that I wanted to ask about and ⁓ that's your family. And the other thing I think is very closely tied to that, which I is important to you is your faith as well. Can you kind of start tying these together ⁓ of how running and coaching and being a mom and your faith all kind of intertwine? together and how you think about those as a unified whole. Tammy Draughon: I love my I have four They are all grown. ⁓ So I have two in college. One actually is this year three years a double major. ⁓ are married. ⁓ One is a wildlife biologist. One is professional photographer. ⁓ then ⁓ I have ⁓ one graduating ⁓ this with a double major in journalism and vocal performance. I know that's a combination and then our youngest a and ⁓ is doing computer maybe engineering so ⁓ they're all fantastic people they're doing really cool things and ⁓ my husband Kevin and are ⁓ empty nesters which is really strange all the kids are gone ⁓ ⁓ super weird ⁓ and I think I it Doug Cutchins: How's that going? That's such a change, right? Right? You Tammy Draughon: I like it when they come home, ⁓ think for me, ⁓ when put all would say that like for people to know they do hard things. And for me, that you can do hard things is accompanied by my faith faith that ⁓ can do the hard thing and you can do hard good thing. You can do the ⁓ just plain thing and have support ⁓ to get it or to do well. And I like for the people around me, Obviously separation of church and state so my students and my athletes don't get that perspective from me I hope that they see someone who's ⁓ and who believes what she says and that because I that you can do hard things that ⁓ you believe that you can do hard things and that's what I hope for my kids. That's what I hope for my students. That's what I hope for my athletes that that we really can do incredibly hard things. if we're not perfect at it, that's okay. We'll get better at it as we go. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Well, let's start talking about this book. Tell what book you chose and why. Tammy Draughon: So this book, Longest Race by Kara Goucher. ⁓ the why is interesting because I've had so many experiences coaching ⁓ running. I to hear what other people's experiences are ⁓ with And I like, I feel very strongly about the responsibility that coaches have with their athletes. It's the same kind of responsibility that teacher has with students, but to another level. if a power that's really important for coaches to understand their in and. ⁓ And Kara Goucher is just a really cool, she's a cool human. The other thing is she runs, she runs a podcast with Des Linden and Des Linden is one of my favorite people. She actually won Boston one of the years that I was running it. But ⁓ Des and do a that's called Nobody Asked Us. they talk about all sorts of things in the running community, the running world. And I love the fact that they're ⁓ two ⁓ marathon who are giving opinion in a sports world. And that's not always what you see. So honestly, I read her book. just because of who she is and the success she had in the sport marathoning ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ seen her be just ⁓ great person in general. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: For people who don't know the book, can you give a little bit of kind of a blurb or a sense of what this book is about? Because it's not just ⁓ memoir of ⁓ elite ⁓ woman runner. ⁓ called The Longest Race for a Reason. Tammy Draughon: It is about her experiences with the Nike Oregon project. ⁓ being coached by Alberto Salazar. ⁓ talks her life of running in the you do get the history of where she started as a young child and then how she ran through high school and college and how she ended up at Nike, ⁓ how she left Nike. You get ⁓ of her ups and downs. What I really love about Kara is that she's being ⁓ completely genuine. And you to podcast, you hear her speak, ⁓ she's one of those people ⁓ I don't think she would very well. ⁓ She's very genuine, she's ⁓ honest, And think her story is important because... She gives a voice to female athletes. She gives a voice to women, of whether they're an athlete or not. ⁓ really applies to all women. If have ever found yourself in a power differential ⁓ where have no voice or where your voice is silenced. then this book applies to you and it helps you to see who you can be. Maybe you've lost your voice and I think you can find your voice again. And Doug Cutchins: If you asked me before I read this book, who's Kara Goucher, I would have been like, elite runner, but I don't pay attention to the elite elite runners. So this was very interesting for me. ⁓ And I agree with you that she's very honest. And one of the things that I ⁓ was that there were parts where she has to to people later in the book. where she goes back and she's very self-reflective about what she did and how she acted and taking responsibility for her actions, ⁓ also very clearly as well she should, laying blame and being very honest about the Nike Oregon project about Salazar's awful abuse of athletes and breaking and of rules. I thought it was an important book and one that I enjoyed on, on multiple levels. and I thought it was really important. It felt to me, I'm not a horror movie guy, ⁓ but it felt a little to me like a horror movie, right? you read the back cover, you know, ⁓ okay, this is not going to be a happy story, just happy story, a happy memoir of, ⁓ of, of an elite runner that there's. There's some some terrible stuff that's going to happen here and that slow descent into like, you know, it's coming as the reader. She doesn't know it's coming as the athlete and the kind of excusing: And well, that was weird. But, you know, he's older or that's weird. But it's Alberto Salazar. Like he's got to know what he's doing or that's bad. do we really want to get out of this? You know, it would be difficult to extricate ourselves from this. And then, the gradual descent. It almost felt cult-like at times as well. It felt like both kind of a cult and a horror movie combined. And it becomes very, very difficult to extricate themselves because her husband, Adam, is also in this project as well. So the two of them... are trying to navigate it, but she's navigating it with the gender dynamics and the sexual abuse in ways that he doesn't have to. Tammy Draughon: the story before I read the book, so I kind of dreaded ⁓ while I was reading the ⁓ Because you know it's coming, I didn't know exactly how it would be portrayed. the whole process her finding her voice ⁓ different ways too. did love fact that she took responsibility every situation, but she ⁓ didn't find her voice with her own husband for a long time. And just the process of going through the abuse and what it took. she said, I froze. ⁓ When she describes her reaction is that froze. And thought that was an important. passage for women to read? think we have one picture how we would behave in a certain situation. And I don't she ever thought I freeze. If something bad happens, I'll freeze. I don't think think that. ⁓ But I agreed with her in the sense that I wouldn't have seen myself as ⁓ but I 100 % could why she was going through what she was going and why she was reacting the way was reacting. Doug Cutchins: And think also what's tied up with that then is that this is her profession, right? ⁓ I a coach that I work with. I love coach. He's absolutely wonderful. ⁓ You're a coach. You a very close relationship with students, but your students could walk away. and they decide they want to spend more time on theater or their parents need them to take a job or something like that, fine. I decide I'm getting old and my hurt and I don't want to do this anymore, fine. ⁓ She decides she doesn't want work with ⁓ the person who's abusing her, she's lost her profession that this entire other layer. that becomes extremely difficult for her to get out of. She lands in a wonderful place. And I love the parts towards the end of the book where she's working with women-owned businesses. she was talking about there's no top women executives at Nike, right? There's nobody that I feel like I can go to who's gonna understand me, who's gonna listen. All the men she's going to are dismissing it. They've got too much money involved. ⁓ This kind of halo effect around Alberto Salazar. But has to find a way out because she has to be able to keep her job ⁓ though the workplace has become abusive. Tammy Draughon: So her book brings. publicity to all of those issues. people really didn't think about it, right? So her contract was being reduced. ⁓ had a baby. ⁓ not allowed to well. I believe if listen what's happening with her. with her injuries and everything once she had the baby, when had had Colt. My feeling is ⁓ she with those injuries ⁓ off on from that point forward mostly because she was never even given a chance to recover. my feeling she was stuck on many levels because she didn't run, she get paid, but she's female. So doesn't get paid because ⁓ had a baby. ⁓ people see the glitzy professional runner part. don't see the, really a prisoner to ⁓ the that has to come from this contract. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Did you read this book more as a coach or more as a runner Tammy Draughon: both. I read this book as a woman. I read this book as a runner. I read this book as a coach. So I felt like don't know. made me I was so ⁓ ⁓ Alberto Salazar. Just ⁓ but do the impact that ⁓ I have as a coach on these teenagers that I coach. Now was an adult going in she a young adult. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Aha. can you not be Tammy Draughon: She had just gone from college. you work at this age group of person, right? They're amazing and intelligent and strong people, but they're still really young. he can't even be positive her. So she runs in Beijing, right? She comes in 10th in what was this at the time was the second fastest 10,000 meter race for the women. runs this huge PR, still comes in 10th and he basically tells her she stinks. I can't when my runners finish a race, whether they feel like they did really well or they did poorly, ⁓ ⁓ I three that went well. I need three positives from you right now before you tell me what was bad, ⁓ before you tell how it stank. I want to know what went well. ⁓ sometimes they have dig really hard to find those things, ⁓ but I'm always there them ⁓ the positive. ⁓ And we work the constructive. ⁓ So I'm reading this book and thinking, how much of an idiot are you that you're working with these professional athletes and you haven't figured out that the mental is just as important as the physical and you can't even give her that? It was infuriating. my is he was a terrible coach. Imagine what these amazing athletes could have done had they with a really good Kara Goucher was amazing doing amazing things, ⁓ even in a situation ⁓ where wasn't given the tools the treatment to excel. ⁓ So what she have done? Doug Cutchins: kudos to her for not asking that, it could come across as egotistical in some ways for her to be like, well, look what I did with this guy. What could I have done if I had had Tammy Draughon on my side who would have, ⁓ who, would have believed in me and who would have told me when I finished, and ran massive PR in Beijing that I was amazing and she believed in me and she was going to, Tammy Draughon: No, I don't know, no, no. Doug Cutchins: help me reach even greater Who knows what might have happened? ⁓ Do you think trying to coach at a level outside of high school? Tammy Draughon: No, that's definitely outside my depth. people that I really admire who coach on the college level, but I don't admire them just because of their coaching. It's how they work with their athletes. She is not a member of my faith, but she coaches BYU, Diljeet Taylor. She's incredible. girls team, they know I love Actually, we were at a meet Stanford ⁓ and ⁓ Diljeet Taylor goes by me with her BYU girls team. ⁓ and I turn into ⁓ absolute fangirl. So I'm just like, So I'm booking it, my runners are all like, what the heck is going on with Coach? And so I go and get the BYU girls and their coach and I'm sure the girls are all like, ⁓ she wants to talk to us. ⁓ great runners, they're fantastic runners. But I was like, girls, you're amazing, but I want to talk to your coach. she's phenomenal. But what she's phenomenal about is She was an amazing athlete. She's an amazing collegiate coach. She's better at what she does than I do, but she has the philosophy that I have ⁓ your athletes and who they are as people is really important. ⁓ she just pours into her athletes ⁓ they know that she cares about their performance, but she cares about them as people ⁓ not just as runners. it's fun watch her girls with her, it's fun when they mic her up during a race, that sort of thing. so no, not qualified coach at some other level. I love what I do with the high school kids because I love high school kids. I teach high school because I love high school kids. College kids are great, but it's a place of development and I love the... development that's happening whenever I'm or coaching. Doug Cutchins: Tammy, we need to start to wrap ⁓ of the things that ⁓ ask guests to think about is thinking about book that we've read, this conversation and where and when we might, it's been a long time, well, a few years since I saw you, a long time since we really got to interact in this way. Thinking about this book, thinking about our relationship, are your thoughts when and where we might get to meet up next? Tammy Draughon: I think we should do a race. I think that'd be really fun. Yeah? Doug Cutchins: Okay, all right, Tammy, you ready for this? I'm five weeks out from a BQ attempt. I'm trying to qualify as a 55 year old male. So 330 is the time I have to hit. Realistically, I've got to go 325. Now I know that this is pedestrian for many people. My PR is a 321, which I ran in. Tammy Draughon: ⁓ yeah! Okay, so where are you doing it? Yeah, you do. Doug Cutchins: 1993, before I even met you, when I was 22 years old. So I'm trying to lose four minutes over 33 years. So I'm registered for Rotterdam April. we're recording this in early March. I'm in Abu Dhabi. Airspace is closed here right now because of what's happening regionally with Iran. hope when this podcast comes out a few months from now, everything is quite well settled. I had this realization yesterday, I may not be able to get out. I may not be able to get to Rotterdam to be able to run this race. Tammy Draughon: you Doug Cutchins: And the reason I wanna do ⁓ is specifically next year ⁓ is my younger daughter will a senior at Wellesley next year. And so, ⁓ if ⁓ I can run Wellesley go the Wellesley Scream Tunnel during her senior year, would ⁓ be dream come true for me. So. Tammy Draughon: ⁓ yay! Doug Cutchins: This is it. This is the big attempt to try to get to Boston. If I can't do it now, I don't know that I'll ever be able to do it. But maybe Boston 2027, we can meet up. Tammy Draughon: Well, I think that's the best plan ever. Because I do have goals of maybe wanting to do Ironman at some point. means I ⁓ can't do that while I'm coaching. ⁓ too much time. ⁓ I would love, it sounds like we're running similar paces. So we could actually run part that race together. That'd really fun. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: It's a lot. That would be the best. That would be absolutely the best. Tammy, thank you so much for this. This was a delight, such an interesting conversation. So glad we got to catch up. I hope all of our ⁓ old late nineties Enloe kids who are in AP US history with me and AP physics with you watching. They're now like in their early forties and they're parents and having their own as well. ⁓ Tammy Draughon: Okay, you're not supposed to say that. That makes us both feel very old. Doug Cutchins: But this has been wonderful. So thank you so much for coming on and Tammy, thank you for being my friend. Tammy Draughon: It has been an absolute pleasure, Doug. my whole family knew. I've been looking forward to this ⁓ for weeks. So thank you for asking me.