Latest / The Touch of a Mustang / The Science Behind Why Horses Change Us with Dr. Leanne Nieforth | Episode 58

Transcript

The Science Behind Why Horses Change Us with Dr. Leanne Nieforth | Episode 58 · The Touch of a Mustang

0:00
I was exposed to equine assisted psychotherapy at that barn,
0:05
which affected me personally but also academically.
0:08
And I'm watching these kids come into the program hurting in
0:12
various capacities, of course, individualized to that person,
0:14
and then leaving the program seemingly thriving and whatever
0:18
that looks like for that person. And I asked my mentor at the
0:21
time, I said, you know, what's happening here, right?
0:22
I was in the science. I'm a science minded person.
0:24
And she was like, oh, it's magic.
0:26
You just put kids and horses together.
0:27
There has to be something happening here.
0:30
And that really was the catalyst for my academic career to
0:33
really, you know, understand what's happening between humans
0:35
and animals. There are healers on this planet
0:38
with the power to soften the suffering of mankind if they
0:41
have remained in the recesses of the world, abused, discarded and
0:46
labeled as trash. This is the touch of a Mustang.
0:49
I am your host, Shalice Clough, and I'm here to tell the story
0:53
of wild horses, Mustangs, and the humans who are discovering
0:58
and sharing their gifts while working to protect their
1:00
well-being and preserve their spirit so this divine power
1:04
won't be lost. Join us on this quest with the
1:08
Wild Mustang. Leanne, thank you so much for
1:16
being here today on the Touch of the Mustang Podcast.
1:19
I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
1:21
To start with, can you give everybody listening introduction
1:25
about yourself, what you do? Sure.
1:28
So I am an assistant professor at the Center for the Human
1:31
Animal Bond at Purdue University's College of
1:33
Veterinary Medicine, and so I get to study how humans and
1:36
animals interact. So most of my work is focused on
1:39
either human equine or human canine interactions.
1:42
Though recently I've been able to work with some other species,
1:46
which has been fun, but day-to-day study the human
1:50
animal bond. So why we are affected by
1:53
animals and why and how they're affected by us.
1:55
I do most of my work in the context of trauma, both in
1:59
equine assisted interventions as well as canine assisted or
2:03
service dog interventions, and most of that is in the military
2:06
context. So I do work a lot with
2:09
civilians as well. And then some of my current
2:12
projects actually work with classrooms and schools.
2:15
So that's been a fun addition. But on the human side of things,
2:19
I'm a mom. I have two horses at home and a
2:23
dog and a husband too. And other.
2:25
Yeah, and I'm a practitioner of equine assisted services and
2:29
haven't since 2013. I spent some time working with
2:32
horses of all different kinds. Unfortunately, I have not had
2:36
the chance to work with a Mustang for longer than a few
2:38
minutes. Well, there's some time.
2:40
There's always. Time.
2:41
Yeah, there's. Always Mustangs.
2:42
Yes. But I have right now, I have a
2:45
Morgan and then I have a Clydesdale paint cross.
2:48
But I've had the pleasure of working with many, many
2:51
different horses who have all had such a profound impact on me
2:54
as a human, as me, as a researcher, as me as a parent
2:58
and many, many other ways. So yeah, that's a little bit
3:01
about. Beautiful.
3:02
So what others? What other species have you done
3:04
besides dogs and? Horses so.
3:06
Right now, kind of off topic, but I yeah, no.
3:10
You always ask me and right now I have a project with chickens
3:13
actually. I love that.
3:15
And how chickens may or may not impact empathy in kids.
3:20
And then I also have a big project right now with pets in
3:22
the classroom. So these PetSmart, anything from
3:26
hissing cockroaches to gerbils to hamsters to fish to snakes,
3:30
kind of any pet that can live in a classroom settings.
3:34
That's been especially wonderful to just study something unique
3:38
and different. And I think, you know, animals
3:40
are beings and they all offer something unique just like a
3:43
human would. So yeah, it's been a real
3:45
privilege to kind of expand to that.
3:47
But I, you know, at heart I'm a horse and dog person, so.
3:51
The cockroach is an interesting one I have not heard before
3:54
they. Are picking up actually in
3:57
popularity across classrooms? Wow.
3:59
Which is fascinating. That's fun.
4:01
We do have a classroom at my kids school that has, Oh yeah, a
4:04
ton of pets and it's one of the most popular classrooms.
4:07
That's true. That's awesome.
4:09
Tell us a little bit about your journey getting here to where
4:12
you're really delving into the science of, you know, I think a
4:15
lot of us can fill it. We're around animals for sure.
4:19
Helps us feel better or it gives us different benefits in life.
4:24
Where, how did you get from the beginning to where you are now,
4:27
where you're studying these things and kind of showing the
4:30
scientific proof? Yes.
4:32
So I I guess it started and don't worry, this will be quick.
4:36
It started with my parents when I was OK.
4:39
I don't wanna be like when I was born.
4:41
Yeah, but it's relevant. You.
4:43
Start pretty far back, but it's. Relevant my My parents adopted a
4:48
puppy when I was three months old and she was 3 weeks old or
4:51
three months old. So I went through a lot of my
4:54
childhood with my canine sister Daisy, and she just was what a
5:01
dog and little kid are like. She was my furry sibling.
5:04
I do have a human sibling as well.
5:06
Daisy lived till she was 17, yes, and she would agree with
5:10
that too. But yes, Daisy lived till she
5:12
was 17. And so we've really did
5:14
childhood together. Old childhood.
5:16
Yeah, and then I had the privilege of my parents being
5:20
animal lovers themselves. So I also had a Bunny that I got
5:25
in 3rd grade. She lived for 10 years as well.
5:27
And she taught me a ton about the human animal relationship in
5:33
a different way than Daisy did. But she was the coolest Bunny.
5:37
She was litter trained. She could play soccer.
5:39
She would get dressed up in clothes because third graders do
5:43
that and carry around and push them around in a baby stroller.
5:46
And now we have all these fun pictures.
5:48
Ultimately, Daisy and Dusty kind of shaped my early childhood.
5:51
And then I was a competitive figure skater, actually, which
5:55
now the Olympics are going on, so people are more in tune to
5:57
that. But I got hurt.
5:59
And I had always said that if I got hurt skating, there was a
6:02
horse barn down the street from my house.
6:05
And we had grown up going down there, like, in the stroller
6:07
and, you know, saying hi to the horses, but never kind of any
6:11
interest in, like, fully adopting the horse lifestyle.
6:14
Yeah, yeah, luckily or unluckily I got hurt skating and I was
6:21
pretty competitive so I was skating, you know, daily for
6:24
hours and all of a sudden I had a lot of time and I do not do
6:29
well just sitting around. So I ended up starting to
6:32
volunteer at the barn and for about 6 months I just, I just
6:37
loved being there. I loved being around the horses.
6:39
The barn owner was so kind of compassionate and just kind of
6:42
welcomed me with open arms to be a helping helping hand.
6:45
There were, I think they're about 12 horses on the farm at
6:47
the time. And I literally spent six months
6:50
just grooming them, doing stalls, taking care of them,
6:53
really just on the taking care of them and bonding and getting
6:57
to know what it's like to be around a horse and all that.
6:59
And about six months and she was like, do you want to ride?
7:02
Do you have any interest in riding?
7:04
It was not like a lesson barn or anything.
7:07
So I said, yeah, you know, at this point, I think, you know, I
7:10
do want to learn to ride. So she paired me up with a horse
7:13
named Buck, who was a schoolmaster.
7:15
He was 27 at the time and had a long history with his mom, who
7:21
ended up teaching me a little bit, you know, competing and
7:24
being a show horse. And he was awesome.
7:27
He literally set me up in so many ways, both in my life and
7:32
in my horse life and in my research life in ways that I
7:36
can't ever thank him enough for. And we just I just got to
7:40
explore what it's like to be a friend of a horse and I learned
7:44
how to ride. He I often say, like he taught
7:47
me how to ride because I took, you know, a few lessons here and
7:50
there, but nothing like official of sorts.
7:52
But I'd get on and, you know, try to figure out his buttons.
7:56
Does this button, what does this do?
7:57
And button being, what do I need to do to my body to make him,
8:01
you know, make him go or stop? Exactly.
8:05
And I think at that time, you know, it was buttons to me.
8:08
But I think at the same time, it was the beginning of an
8:11
understanding of what is possible when you have a horse
8:15
partner. And where I was like topping on
8:18
bareback was not normal. But I was like, you know, I
8:21
think I'll get on bareback. I think I'll get on an halter
8:23
and just kind of as a kid, explore what that was like.
8:26
Buck was so kind that he never dumped me, but he did vocalize
8:30
his needs in various ways, maybe not vocally, but with body
8:33
language. And then, yeah, so then I went
8:35
to college and left them at home.
8:38
There were some other horses, of course, there that also had
8:40
tremendous impacts on me. But for the sake of time, I
8:42
won't go through all 12. And then I went to school and I
8:45
wanted to be a veterinarian at the time.
8:47
I'd want to be a veterinarian my whole life.
8:49
And then I got involved in some research where I was doing, I
8:53
was actually doing biochemistry research with neonatal piglets.
8:56
So we were looking at how adding something to their diet would
9:00
change gut barrier function, and that was a measure for human
9:02
infants. And at the same time, I wanted
9:04
to get some hours for veterinary schools.
9:06
So I began working at a nonprofit that did equine
9:10
assisted psychotherapy for teenage girls who'd experienced
9:14
various forms of trauma. And again, I started out as the
9:16
horse person, right? I wanted to go to vet school.
9:18
So it was all, you know, horse minded.
9:20
And luckily, I was exposed to equine assisted psychotherapy at
9:26
that barn, which affected me personally but also
9:29
academically. And I realized through those
9:32
experiences that, you know, I'm watching what this change to a
9:35
pig diet does to their gut. And I'm also watching these kids
9:40
come into the program hurting in various capacities, of course,
9:43
individualized to that person, and then leaving the program
9:46
seemingly thriving and whatever that looks like for that person.
9:49
And I asked my mentor at the time, I said, you know what's
9:51
happening here, right? I was in the science.
9:53
I'm science minded person. And she was like, oh, it's
9:55
magic. You just put kids and horses
9:57
together. Yeah.
9:57
And I was like, great. I was.
9:59
Like. Well, yeah, you know, like I
10:01
don't want to, you know? Can we say lower the magic but.
10:05
But you know, like there has to be something happening here and
10:09
that really was a catalyst for my academic career to really,
10:12
you know, understand what's happening between humans and
10:14
animals and how that could work. And I think horsemanship wise,
10:17
and this barn was very different than the Morgan show barn I grew
10:21
up learning to ride in. You know, she put me in a round
10:24
pen with a, she was a 7 year old thoroughbred and handed me like
10:29
a tissue essentially and was like, OK, you can go, you can go
10:33
ride. And I was like saddle bridle
10:36
alter. She was like, no, she's like,
10:38
you can use the mounting block, climb on from the fence, like
10:41
whatever you need. You know, you have to have a
10:43
relationship with this horse before you do anything.
10:45
And you know, as a college student, I was what?
10:49
But that moment was pivotal for me.
10:51
Even now I, I do dressage now, but I do everything that I can
10:55
do in tech, I try to do without tech because it really
10:59
demonstrates what the relationship looks like and that
11:01
communication piece career trajectory trained to that point
11:04
and I decided to get my masters and I actually got my masters in
11:06
communication. How much people were like, how'd
11:08
you go from animal science communication?
11:10
That's weird, but it actually fundamentally set me up for my
11:14
later career. So I learned how to think
11:15
differently. I learned how to go from, you
11:17
know, the heavy science to the softer science, which I would
11:20
argue with those terms, but I got to study behavior and
11:25
communication is behavior and I got to say focus on non verbal
11:29
communication and family communication and relationship
11:31
communication, which can all be intertwined into our
11:36
relationships with animals. And then once at that time, I
11:40
also started doing some research and human E coin interaction.
11:43
I'm at the nonprofit that I had been working with.
11:45
I'm looking at what are the commutative processes that are
11:49
happening that are promoting resilience in these young girls.
11:52
And since then, that research has been published.
11:55
And of course, I ended up doing my PhD in human animal
11:57
interaction, which was a, an opportunity that came across my
12:01
desk and I was like, wow, this exists.
12:04
You know, this is a thing. And I, you know, got to take
12:08
both of my backgrounds and, you know, animal science and in
12:11
communication and put them together in a really
12:13
interdisciplinary way for my PhD in human animal interaction.
12:16
And, you know, have been consistent from, you know, high
12:20
school through college. I ended up taking one of the
12:23
horses from the barn as my horse when I was a sophomore in
12:26
college. He's still with us.
12:27
His name is Bentley. He's a Morgan.
12:29
And I actually had the privilege of knowing his mom and at the
12:33
barn as well. So he has been with me since
12:36
college. So then lived in multiple
12:38
states, you know, been through multiple life changes for me,
12:42
you know, getting, you know, graduating, getting married,
12:44
having a baby, you know, the whole thing.
12:46
So he's been a constant, yeah. And then I've had the privilege
12:49
of having two other horses. One, unfortunately, we lost, her
12:53
name was Izzy, and she had a huge impact on me as well.
12:57
And then my other horse right now is Fergus, and he's a
13:01
Clydesdale paint. So it's been a real privilege to
13:03
kind of have them in my life and all that, really all the animals
13:06
that I've been, you know, able to learn from and interact with.
13:10
Well, let's talk about first some of the things you found in
13:13
research and then if you're open to train some of the ways that
13:16
they've personally affected you, I'd love to hear that as well.
13:18
Yeah. But so in all your research and
13:21
then the things you've explored, what are some of the things that
13:23
you've found? What is this magic that horses
13:25
doing at WE? Yeah.
13:27
But yeah, put into words at terms.
13:30
Yeah, no. So I mentioned the study that we
13:32
did during my Master's degree and that was on the resilience
13:37
processes that occurred with the use at that program, if you're
13:42
going to edit this. Yeah, of course.
13:43
So in that study, we looked at, again, the program that the
13:47
girls were going through that had like a component of E corn
13:49
assisted psychotherapy, but it also included vocational
13:53
training, academic tutoring, as well as just farm chores and
13:57
learning, you know, how to function around a working horse
14:00
farm. And again, as I mentioned
14:01
earlier, we were looking at how, you know, the girls came into
14:05
the program with many different risk factors.
14:08
You know, they each have course had their own experiences, but
14:10
they kind of all fit in that realm of trauma from, you know,
14:13
sex trafficking through sexual assault through kind of the
14:16
whole the whole gamut. Yeah, and we are seeing these
14:20
changes. And we ultimately did a study
14:22
where my mentor spent time at the farm for a semester
14:27
observing what was happening, and we looked specifically at
14:31
the communication processes that were occurring between the kids,
14:34
the horses and the adults that were around.
14:36
So there's always a mental health professional.
14:39
It was equine assisted psychotherapy.
14:40
So that psychotherapy piece, there's a mental health
14:42
professional there and then there was an equine specialist
14:45
who was responsible for the horses safety essentially, and
14:48
then a client horse and usually sometimes more clients,
14:51
sometimes more horses, but usually individual sessions.
14:54
And we found that through the communication processes that
14:58
were occurring between all of these different players, there
15:01
was this communication of resilience.
15:03
So there's this theory by Patrice Buzzanelle about
15:07
commutative resilience and it has these processes that occur
15:12
through communication that promote resilience after a
15:15
difficult situation. And they are crafting normalcy.
15:18
So creating a space where routines potentially become
15:21
normal, building new communication networks.
15:24
So finding that support elsewhere and learning how to
15:27
communicate and how not to communicate amongst your
15:29
networks. Legitimizing negative feelings
15:32
while foregrounding positive action, right.
15:34
So you might be feeling negatively about something, but
15:37
what can we do positively from that?
15:39
And I think a working with horses, sometimes it's
15:41
difficult, right? Just like working with people is
15:45
difficult. So that came through.
15:47
And then putting alternative logics to work.
15:50
So if something wasn't working, what's an alternate for that?
15:53
And then cultivating this identity of empowerment.
15:56
So these five tenants of this commutative resilience theory
16:00
had existed in this communication theory realm,
16:03
right? But it had never been applied to
16:04
horses in this particular setting.
16:06
That's what we found there. And then since then, my I work
16:10
currently focuses on military veterans and their families as
16:16
well as first responders. So I'm partnered with an
16:19
organization out in Reno, NV that provides equal assisted
16:23
learning to veterans, first responders and their families.
16:25
I mean, that study is not published yet, so I can't speak
16:29
to outcomes yet. But what we did is we looked at
16:32
repost and follow up surveys as well as interviews to
16:35
understand, you know, fundamentally what impact is
16:38
this program having on these individuals both in the moment
16:43
and long term retention of that. And I can say the findings are,
16:47
you know, not shocking to horse people or to people who've been
16:50
of course, no problem. But the, the methodology that we
16:55
used kind of is the same methodology used to evaluate
16:58
other forms of mental health intervention, which it's
17:02
important and for the researchers to do that because
17:05
that's what stands up when we talk about insurance coverage
17:08
or, you know, providing opportunities for individuals
17:12
who don't know about horses, for example, to experience them in
17:14
the context of mental health. I've also done some work with
17:18
the Professional Association of Therapeutic Coursemanship.
17:21
So I'm on a few committees for them and we published recently
17:24
data about helmet fitting for different individuals.
17:28
So the accessibility of a helmet and the access may give people
17:31
to horses. And then I've done some work
17:33
also looking at inclusion and belonging in the context of the
17:37
equine assisted work as well. So what structures, what human
17:40
structures are in place that may affect equine assisted
17:45
interventions for people? What were some of the
17:47
conclusions that you were able to draw from, especially maybe
17:50
that first one with the girls in trauma?
17:52
Like what was it about the horses that seem to be helping
17:56
them? Yeah, I think, you know, it
17:57
comes down to the relationships they were able to build with
18:00
them and their ability to take what they were learning from the
18:05
horses outside of the ring. So we saw a kids trying to get a
18:11
horse's attention in really a way that wasn't working.
18:15
And a lot of times, whether that's being too loud or too
18:18
soft, you know, a horse won't respond or they'll respond
18:21
really largely so they can take it.
18:23
Maybe if I fly into the arena at full speed waving everything
18:27
around, my horse is going to go flying to the other end.
18:29
It was a huge arena. And that's a really visual cue
18:32
of maybe I need to think about how I'm approaching different
18:36
situations and they could take that to school and say, OK, when
18:40
I don't want to do my assignment, it's probably not
18:43
appropriate for me to throw the paper around the room and jump
18:46
up and down, right? And you know, you're laughing.
18:48
But this was a real thing for kids and having them be like,
18:52
wow, when I walked slowly and was breathing and went up to,
18:57
you know, Ruffy, she stood there like, and she, she turned her
19:00
head towards me and she put her nose down and like, she was
19:04
there, she was with me. And she's like, you know, when I
19:07
go to school, like I tried to, you know, take a deep breath
19:10
when I was walking up to a friend or a teacher or, you
19:13
know, whatever that may be. And it and it worked or like my
19:16
parent told me this and what works.
19:18
So, you know, I talked about it with kids, but in the military
19:21
work I do, a lot of the veterans that I worked with are also
19:24
first responders, right? So they're police, SWAT fire and
19:28
they talk about how would they experience the horses or they
19:31
take to their daily lives, right?
19:33
If they know they're going to walk into a super difficult
19:35
situation, they remember the moment that they had with the
19:38
horse and how they had to breathe or had to ground
19:41
themselves or had to be clear with their communication.
19:44
And they can directly put that in practice in their daily
19:48
lives, whether that be with their personal relationships or
19:51
their, you know, occupational relationships, whatever that may
19:53
be. So that carryover piece of the
19:55
communication and the responses that horses give us is really
19:59
key. And I think too, when you think
20:00
about it, people hurt people, right?
20:02
So especially with kids who've experienced hurt, a horse is a
20:06
safe place because some of them have never been around a horse,
20:09
most of them haven't been around a horse, right?
20:11
So it's a new thing. And they're watching the people
20:14
that they're working with also work with a horse, right?
20:17
So it, as an equine specialist, for example, if I had a
20:20
relationship with a horse and I could, you know, go get that
20:23
horse ready for the session or just say hi to that horse on my
20:26
way to the barn, They saw that and the kids watched the adults
20:30
interact. And, you know, horses are very
20:33
clear with their communication, of course.
20:35
And I think for many kids, that showed them that I was also safe
20:39
potentially, right? Not at first, but you know, I
20:42
was a safe place because, you know, Ruffy trusted me or
20:44
Chester trusted me or Bentley did.
20:47
And that kind of catalyzed them to begin to trust humans again
20:51
and work on those commutative processes that are so important
20:54
to our daily functioning. But in the context of that
20:57
safety of the horse and, you know, boundary setting too,
21:00
there's so many pieces there. It's a really interesting
21:03
practice ground because, you know, it's different than, like,
21:07
role-playing with a person or something like that because, you
21:10
know, that is pretend. And with horses, it's almost
21:12
like you get that real situation, you get the real
21:15
feedback. Most of the time in a Safeway,
21:19
it's not totally safe, right? Horses do have an element of
21:22
danger, which I even wonder if part of that adds to it, that
21:25
it's like there is potential for danger, but interaction can
21:28
change and, like, minimize that danger.
21:30
So yeah, it's a really interesting idea that this is
21:34
kind of a place for them to practice and then go and take
21:37
that into the real world that they're living in day in and day
21:40
out, or the human world. Yeah, world.
21:42
But yeah, and I think to like, you know, the danger piece, you
21:46
know, sometimes kids or adults, you know, would come into
21:49
sessions, you know, from a practitioner point or a
21:50
researcher standpoint and be like, I'm afraid, right?
21:52
Like that's a big animal, right? You know, draft horse or pony.
21:57
Yeah, it's a good fear. Around them.
21:59
Exactly. And they'd be like, they have
22:01
hooves, they can kick me, they can bite me.
22:04
And, you know, as a practitioner, I would always
22:06
respond to that with so can I and not always would like loosen
22:09
it up, but also recognize like, yes, that is true, right?
22:12
There is, you know, a limit of safety here.
22:14
And, you know, for some people, especially survivors of trauma,
22:17
that learning how to keep yourself safe and trusting that
22:20
you can keep yourself safe within a network, within a
22:23
relationship, that's key. So, you know, you're, you're
22:27
correct. And, and sessions, I think a lot
22:28
of times people think, oh, equine assisted interventions,
22:31
like, you know, you get to stand with a horse and love on them
22:34
and pet them. And, you know, sometimes you do.
22:35
Yeah. But sometimes, sometimes, you
22:38
know, get in the field and your horse says I'm feeling it today
22:42
and they run to the other end of the 50 acre pasture and you have
22:45
to drapes behind them and see are they just not feeling it or
22:49
you know, are they responding to something within me?
22:51
And I think sometimes those situations teach us even more
22:55
than the situations that go directly as we.
22:58
Learn and some real skills and how cause and effect really how
23:03
you behave exactly. Did you find that this would
23:06
naturally transfer or is it something that was talked a lot
23:09
about? Like see how this happened?
23:11
Think about this when you go to school.
23:12
Or is it something that was more natural where they clicked for
23:15
them on their own? It clicked for them.
23:17
I think, at least in my experience as a practitioner,
23:20
like I don't like to scaffold too much, right?
23:23
I don't like to say like, oh, you should take this to school
23:25
because I think the natural consequence and the natural
23:28
experience and that experiential education is really important.
23:31
And for a lot of these kids, some of them had oppositional
23:34
defiant disorder and all of these things were and some of
23:37
them just didn't like adults, right?
23:39
So if I were to say like, oh, you should bring this to school,
23:42
they'd be like, watch me not bring it to.
23:44
School I almost create more resistance by giving them
23:47
prompts to go that way. And I think, you know, same
23:50
thing with adults. You know, I think that that
23:52
personal piece and that experience that you go through
23:55
as an individual when you're working with a horse in whatever
23:58
capacity that might be, I think that's the piece where the magic
24:02
lies, right? And that's something that I have
24:04
graduate students and postdocs that work with me, and some of
24:06
them don't have horse experience.
24:08
And that's my favorite because I take them out into my pasture
24:11
and I give them the experience of working with a horse, and
24:14
they always leave that session or that time with my horse.
24:17
I can call it a session time with my horses.
24:19
And they're like, whoa, I get it.
24:21
Like, I understand what our participants are describing now
24:25
in a way that, like, I did not get beforehand.
24:28
So that that experiential piece is really key, I think.
24:32
Yeah. That's really interesting that
24:34
that and I think that speaks to kind of the magic of it that we
24:37
see is we don't really know that we're building those skills that
24:40
are then becoming embedded in our minds.
24:43
They're like, oh, here are some other options of how I might be
24:47
able to address this situation. That's neat.
24:50
With the ones you've seen, how long does this take for it to
24:53
have a real effect? Have you seen?
24:56
I think from, from the researchers standpoint, I can't
24:58
answer that question because we don't, we don't know, right?
25:01
This, this field and studying human horse interaction or just
25:05
human animal interaction in general is really young.
25:08
It really came to be in the 1970s and 80s, which when you
25:11
think about that compared to like physics and the apple
25:13
falling from the tree, right? Like there's, there's a lot that
25:16
we need to learn on the research side of things.
25:18
So research wise, I can't answer that.
25:20
I think practice just wise, I think it truly depends on the
25:23
person. I think some people, you know,
25:25
have interaction with a horse and it's life changing and other
25:28
people, you know, spend months and months and months and months
25:32
and months and, you know, from the outside it looks like
25:34
nothing's happening. But I think, you know, there is
25:37
something happening inside. And then one day they just get
25:39
it. And why that is, I'm not really
25:42
sure yet. But I think, you know, even like
25:45
we had one kid, I'll never forget this, that literally it
25:48
was like, I don't want to be here.
25:49
I don't want to be around the horses, but she's like, I will
25:51
lay on this fence. And we literally had a wooden
25:54
fence and she would lay on the top bowl and we just had the
25:57
horses around in the arena in the pasture.
26:00
And for weeks she just laid there.
26:02
And the therapist was like, you know, we're just going to let
26:06
her, you know, see what happens. And, you know, we'd join her.
26:08
Like, I'd lay on the, you know, rail underneath her.
26:11
She thought that was hilarious. But, you know, we'd, we'd build
26:13
that relationship and just sit there in silence, right?
26:16
And then one day, the horses just became interesting, right?
26:19
They would come over, check on us.
26:21
And then she would, you know, say something like, oh, he
26:24
didn't come over at the time. He usually did today, Like, he
26:27
came over earlier. And she'd start to notice these
26:30
things. And the horses were just kind
26:31
of, you know, doing what they do to work on work on this kid.
26:36
And eventually, one day, without prompting, she just got off the
26:39
fence and started working with a horse, walking around the
26:42
pasture. No instruction at all, right?
26:45
Just started working with this pony and just walking around,
26:47
petting him, you know, eating. He was eating grass.
26:50
She'd go pick some grass and bring it back.
26:52
And then their relationship really blossomed over time.
26:54
And she ended up, you know, riding and doing all those
26:56
things. But it took a really long time.
26:58
But I think to this day, she would say he had a profound
27:02
impact on her healing because he was always there.
27:05
He never left her and he had the choice to leave.
27:08
Like, we had a huge arena and then the arena backed up to
27:10
multiple pastures so they could go wherever they wanted.
27:14
And he always kind of hung up. Interesting, do you find that
27:17
horses usually pair up with someone like that?
27:19
I think typically I would say yes, I think sometimes horses,
27:23
horses are such individuals, right?
27:25
And they're sentient. And I think sometimes horses
27:27
like to be around people and sometimes some horses are like,
27:30
I could see you if you need me, come get me.
27:32
But I'll be over here. My two horses, one of them is
27:35
very much like, I love you, but I'm gonna go over here if you
27:39
need me. I'll be willing to join you.
27:41
But then the other one's like, oh, what are you doing?
27:43
Should I follow you around? Yeah.
27:44
Different. Personalities, for sure, yeah.
27:46
So I think in that regard, I think people are drawn to
27:49
different things. And horses, I think horses are
27:50
drawn to different things and people.
27:52
So it's interesting to watch people with different horses,
27:55
too, and watch horses with different people.
27:57
Yeah, it's all about, again, that communication and that
28:00
relationship that's built. And you know why we do what we
28:04
do for both both sides of the equation.
28:06
Yeah, I hear lots of stories about unexpected partnerships, a
28:10
lot of time where someone thinks that horse would never have done
28:13
something like that, but with this particular person, they did
28:16
do that. That's like the most exciting
28:18
part is, you know, taking people either would be in the context
28:22
of an equinoxes intervention, just in general out into a field
28:24
of horses and seeing, you know what unravels because there's
28:28
always some communication occurring that can be so
28:31
meaningful for either the person themselves or somebody watching,
28:35
right? Or, you know, the horse
28:37
themselves. It's fascinating.
28:39
Have you seen any difference? Is there any insights into more
28:43
structured programs versus like that girl that's kind of
28:46
spending time with a horse? That's a really great question
28:49
and that's something that we have not studied officially.
28:52
I think most of the study is, at least that I'm aware of, are
28:57
more structured programs in the context of equine assisted
29:00
services. But that's something that I'm on
29:02
a research team that we're interested in looking at that.
29:05
So what is the difference between a structured program
29:08
versus, you know, a sanctuary type model where you know, the
29:12
horses aren't in a pasture, right?
29:14
They're on hundreds of acres and have the choice to interact or
29:17
not versus, you know, a program that brings a horse into a barn,
29:22
puts them on the cross, ties, you know, tacks them up and
29:24
brings them into the arena. I mean, I'm not saying either 1
29:27
is better or worse than the other, but they do have
29:29
different implications. And I've written a paper on kind
29:32
of the spaces that we're doing the work with our horses and
29:36
what implications they may have for both animal welfare, but
29:39
also human welfare, right? And our experiences in different
29:42
spaces, again, carry over into our experiences of horses too.
29:48
If you're not comfortable in small spaces being, you know,
29:51
between two horses on a cross tie, getting ready, it's
29:54
probably going to be pretty uncomfortable.
29:55
You'd probably be much more confident in a field at liberty
29:58
with the horse. So just being aware of those
30:01
spaces I think is important. But yeah, research wise, we have
30:03
not directly compared that yet. Interesting.
30:06
And anything from that paper that you can share as far as
30:09
what? Yeah, yeah.
30:11
So it was more of a like a theoretical piece to just say,
30:15
like to the practitioners, you know, hey, you should be paying
30:18
attention to, like what, where you're doing your sessions.
30:21
And some practitioners have the privilege of choice, you know,
30:24
do they do it in an arena, a pen, you know, a stall,
30:29
wherever, and some don't. So, you know, being aware of
30:31
that, but just understanding the implications of that, right?
30:34
What does it do to the horse to go get them from the field,
30:37
bring them to the cross ties and do a session in a stall versus
30:41
bring the client out to the field, right?
30:43
And we know that, you know, for example, horses are herd
30:45
animals. So if you pull a horse out of a
30:48
herd, some of them are very confident and happy to go up to
30:51
the barn by themselves. Others are not so confident, you
30:55
know, could you bring an extra horse up with you if you need
30:58
to, you know, do something like that, or can you bring the
31:01
client to the field? So from the horse welfare,
31:03
that's kind of where that conversation went.
31:05
And then from the human side, something as being in a small
31:08
space versus a large space, you know, a lot of times thinking
31:11
about individuals and for example, that have been sexually
31:13
assaulted, rioting can be very challenging.
31:16
And I'm not saying I'm not generalizing for all, but that
31:19
can be a really difficult situation.
31:20
That closeness and just the positioning is just not a good
31:24
thing for them. So are you as a practitioner
31:27
aware of that, right. Are you thinking about the
31:30
different spaces and where you're taking them?
31:32
You know, if they're taking them on a trail ride, is that
31:35
something that they want to do or is that something that's
31:38
terrifying to them because the safety is in the barn?
31:41
And again, it's so dependent on the person and the horse, but
31:45
just really trying to get practitioners to think about
31:48
what are we doing? And I think horse people in
31:50
general, we all have our routines that we do with our
31:54
horses. Yeah.
31:55
And just thinking about am I doing something?
31:58
Why am I doing something right? Why am I doing it this way when
32:02
I could do it this way? And again, there's nothing wrong
32:04
right inherently with any of it necessarily, but I perhaps there
32:08
could be, but you know, just suggest.
32:11
Conversation. Just thinking about, you know
32:14
what you're doing and why you're doing it and you know what your
32:18
horse could think of it and what you're you're experiencing in it
32:22
as well. I think that's great questioning
32:24
it because there are a lot of things that we do out of
32:26
tradition or that's the way we learned or that's what we were
32:28
told. And I say this a lot, but
32:30
there's a lot of rules that we perceive as like hard and fast.
32:34
Like you do do this. Yes, you don't do this again to
32:37
question those like is that necessary?
32:39
Do I have to do it that way? Is there another way?
32:42
Is that is defying that rule necessarily going to lead to
32:46
this outcome? I've been told it will lead to
32:48
so right. Really neat to explore and also
32:51
can be kind of frowned upon sometimes in in the equine
32:55
world. Or just different people's
32:57
perspectives from what exactly learned and found.
33:00
Any other interesting findings or things that you're studying?
33:03
One piece that we haven't talked about is the the fact that horse
33:06
just bring people together, whether that be physically right
33:10
in spaces where you have to go to the barn where your horse is
33:13
boarded or, you know, you go on a trail ride and you join a
33:15
group of people. Or, you know, if you walk into a
33:18
meeting, for example, at work and you notice someone has a
33:21
horse sticker on their water bottle or something, right, that
33:25
is an open invitation, right. Do you say, do you have horses
33:29
or if somebody, you know, if you're in a new space and you
33:32
know, you see something or they say something and you're like,
33:35
hmm, that sounded like a horse person.
33:36
You know, they, they create this community.
33:39
And I think, you know, a lot of times that community is really
33:41
positive, but I think sometimes it could be negative as well.
33:44
And I just think from the healing perspective, being aware
33:47
of that community and the implications of it can be
33:49
tremendous. Like in my veteran and military
33:52
work, that camaraderie in that community is huge, right?
33:55
That is so important. And I would argue for any human,
33:59
having that community is really important in that social support
34:02
that comes from that. And we often talk about pets
34:05
being, you know, a catalyst for communication and a catalyst for
34:08
relationships. You're more likely say to talk
34:12
to somebody if you take your dog on a walk than if you just go on
34:14
a walk yourself. And that scientifically
34:16
explained, which is funny, but it's, you know, the same thing
34:20
could be happening in the horse world.
34:21
And it's just creating that human to human connection over,
34:25
you know, shared passion or interest, which I think is
34:27
interesting, definitely. An interesting aspect because
34:29
certainly that need to belong to have a community is something
34:32
that we all exactly. And so especially if we're not,
34:37
you know, feeling that did you find that to be a piece with the
34:40
girls or even with the veterans? Well, you kind of the veterans,
34:43
but with the girls. Yeah, yeah.
34:45
Because many of them had even some, like some of them, for
34:48
example, were gang involved. So like that is obviously a very
34:51
complicated community. So finding alternative healthy
34:55
communities was something that wasn't within reach for them.
34:58
And the program really helped to create that community with peers
35:03
that was healthy and supervised, but then also the community with
35:07
adults, men, horses and, you know, barn cats and the staff
35:10
dogs, you know, this, this larger network of beings that
35:15
could edge that forward. Yeah.
35:17
Very interesting. What are the some of the things
35:19
that you found with dogs? So most of my work today has
35:23
focused on service dogs for veterans with PTSD.
35:25
And so we've done many different studies from like physiological
35:31
cortisol awakening responses through like qualitative base
35:34
work. So in our Physiology studies, we
35:38
looked at the cortisol awakening response, which essentially when
35:41
you wake up in the morning, you have a peak of cortisol and most
35:43
people experience the peak about 15 minutes after they wake up
35:46
and then it kind of drops off after that.
35:48
And when you are diagnosed with PTSD, that cortisol peak is
35:52
blunted. So because your body is in a
35:54
constant state of stress, your body just stops responding in
35:59
the way that it was made to do in the context of cortisol.
36:02
So we compared veterans who had a service dog versus those who
36:06
were in usual care waiting for a service dog.
36:09
And we found that veterans with a service dog had more typical
36:13
cortisol awakening response profiles and then those who
36:16
didn't. So on a physiological level, the
36:18
service dog seems to be impacting veteran mental health.
36:22
We've also done some work with sleep patterns.
36:25
We've done some work with expectations and experiences.
36:28
So what does it look like to bring a dog into the home, a
36:31
service dog specifically, and what implications does that have
36:34
for your family? A lot of my work there has
36:36
focused on the partners of the romantic partners of veterans
36:39
with service dogs and talking about the impacts of the dogs on
36:42
them. Though the dog is trained to do
36:44
tasks for the veteran themselves, obviously the dog is
36:48
interacting within the family system.
36:50
So what indirect effects are the dogs having fun spouses or
36:53
children? And we found some interesting
36:56
things there both on the context of like affect and emotion as
37:00
well as sleep patterns and such. So it's really interesting to
37:04
think about the dog side, but also how does that compare or
37:08
not to the horse side and you know the different pieces there,
37:11
but. Yeah.
37:12
What are some of the differences you found or some of the things
37:15
that have been interesting that you've found?
37:16
Yeah. So I think, I guess the
37:18
fundamental difference of course is, you know, the dog lives in
37:21
the with the veteran, right and the horse doesn't and I think.
37:25
Much closer. Right, which when you think
37:27
about like attachment styles and you know, attachment theory,
37:30
it's different because the dog is the proximity maintenance
37:34
piece, which is one of the tenants of attachment theory.
37:37
The dog is there all the time, right?
37:39
And the horse in the context of, you know, equine assisted work,
37:43
you know, maybe once or twice a week in the context of ownership
37:46
or leasee, obviously that might be way more than that, but still
37:49
most horses are not sleeping on their owners bed.
37:53
Yeah, but I think, you know, we haven't done a study.
37:56
There's been one study done by another team comparing dog and
38:00
horse, but it was a kind of a preliminary study.
38:04
So we haven't really looked at the differences scientifically
38:07
yet, but when you think about access, that's definitely
38:10
something to consider. It's much easier to get a dog
38:13
into a situation than a horse. But people are being really
38:16
creative with getting horses into situations where horses
38:19
typically wouldn't be. Like, you know, the therapy
38:21
horses going to nursing homes or, you know, people bringing
38:25
horses to hospitals for helping with both the patients in the
38:29
hospital, but also the providers and providing that stress
38:32
release, you know, putting up panels outside in the parking
38:35
lot. And of course, you know, I would
38:37
be remiss to say when we're doing these things, we need to
38:39
be thinking about the horse welfare as well.
38:41
You know, some horses are perfectly fine being in a grass
38:45
past the piece of a parking lot, right?
38:47
Other horses. No, no, no, right.
38:49
Every horse is going to be able to walk through a hospital.
38:52
But yeah, so it's interesting to kind of think about that and the
38:54
differences between them. But scientifically, that's
38:56
something that, you know, I really hope to look into further
39:00
moving forward, especially in the context of service dog
39:03
versus E corn assisted intervention, though many, many
39:06
of my service dog handlers have also experienced E corn assisted
39:10
intervention. So it's not something that I was
39:11
not expecting. But in talking to them, a lot of
39:14
the time I get, oh, you also look at horses like I see the
39:17
horse picture like I did, you know, this one day.
39:19
And it's just really cool to see kind of how individuals in that
39:23
context are kind of seeing the value of both nonhuman animals.
39:29
In your experience, have you seen individuals where they just
39:32
don't have that connection with the horse?
39:34
They're with animals, It's just not maybe what they need.
39:36
Yeah, I think so. And I think as a researcher, we
39:39
always have to say it's not for everyone, right?
39:41
This intervention might not be for everyone.
39:44
And I think a lot of times, you know, people like, oh, you don't
39:46
like dogs, Like, what's wrong with you, right?
39:48
But fundamentally, like, that's fine.
39:50
Some people just don't. Just don't like.
39:53
I'm curious. Animals, my husband like horses,
39:55
no. Yeah.
39:57
And that's OK. And I think, you know, that's
39:59
something that we need to consider.
40:00
And you know, there's when I talk about for example, for
40:03
PTSD, you know, there's a lot of traditional interventions that
40:07
have have evidenced by. Find them that work.
40:09
But a lot of these traditional interventions have really high
40:12
dropout rates. You know, people don't want to
40:14
try them because they're really challenging and, you know, they
40:17
just don't work super great for everyone.
40:19
Like, if that was existed, you know, that would be amazing.
40:22
Yeah. I mean, if we could find the
40:23
perfect cure, let's use it. Exactly.
40:25
But it's more of a puzzle, right?
40:27
So if we need to look at the different puzzle pieces that
40:29
come together, So for someone, that missing piece of the puzzle
40:33
might be a service dog. For others, it might be equine
40:36
assisted interventions. For others, it might be yoga.
40:39
For others it might be art therapy, right?
40:41
And I think as a provider in that context, especially in the
40:44
context of mental health, you know, understanding what puzzle
40:47
pieces are available and how to put them together for your
40:50
particular client that's sitting in front of you at that moment
40:52
in time is the critical element. So for me, you know, I think
40:55
about my work is filling in some puzzle pieces, right?
40:58
That people eventually will be able to say, OK, you know, you
41:01
are presenting with this. So you like animals or you don't
41:04
like animals, right? So, you know, could do this or
41:07
you could not do this and, you know, have that conversation.
41:10
I wonder, and maybe you've seen this or have insights into it,
41:13
are people self selecting for stuff they're interested in,
41:16
which they then stick with, which then ends up being more
41:19
effective? Yes and no.
41:21
So yes, some of the individuals, for example, in my equine
41:25
assisted services studies, they sought out equine assisted
41:29
intervention because they love horses, whether they've never
41:32
touched one before, but they've always found them magnificent
41:34
and wanted to interact with them or they grew up on a ranch,
41:38
right? They were looking for the horse
41:40
piece of things. Other people find it as a last
41:43
resort. So they've literally tried
41:46
everything and nothing is working.
41:48
And somebody in their life, whether that be their provider,
41:51
that be a friend, an ad on TVA news story, right, they go like,
41:58
I'm going to give that a shot. It's free, right?
42:01
Yeah, it's free. I'm going to try it.
42:03
And that's how they find their way.
42:05
And so I think even those people, at least in my
42:08
experience, tend to finish out the program and not drop out.
42:12
And often times they're the ones that come around on the other
42:14
side and are advocating hard to get those interventions into
42:18
mainstream conversations, for example, like at the VA or
42:21
within their, you know, veteran specific organizations.
42:25
Exactly. Are there any other differences
42:28
you've seen between the people who maybe were drawn to horses
42:31
and those who are kind of last resorting it?
42:33
Yeah. I think, you know, the people
42:35
who were drawn to horses that have experience with horses, you
42:38
know, we all have what this kind of goes to what we're talking
42:40
about earlier too. You know, we all have like what
42:42
we think it should look like when you interact with a horse,
42:45
like how you should touch them, how you should groom them or how
42:47
you should talk, how you should work with them.
42:50
And I think a lot of times, you know, those traditional
42:53
conversations don't align with what happens in an equine
42:57
facilitated interaction. And I think a lot of times
43:00
people come in with these. I remember 1 participant was
43:02
talking about how they had, you know, like backed horses, like
43:05
multiple in their life and had worked with, you know, untouched
43:08
horses of all kinds. And they came into the program
43:11
and they were like, yeah, it is so different than what I've ever
43:15
done. So that for them was a really
43:17
challenging thing to get over because they thought they were
43:19
really good at it, right? And they come in and they were
43:22
like, this is different, but you know my experience.
43:25
Having to challenge a lot of exactly.
43:27
Exactly, exactly. And then, you know, people who
43:29
come in who've never touched a horse before are a little bit
43:32
more open minded sometimes and that they're, you know, more
43:35
willing to, you know, try something that might be
43:38
unconventional or odd. They care less about what people
43:41
are looking at because they don't know any different.
43:43
Right. So, yeah, I think that's what
43:44
I've, that's what I've noticed. But yeah, I hope to again, hope
43:47
to have some, some data behind it soon because I think.
43:51
So many interesting angles to research, but it's great that it
43:54
is starting to come out and to show like there is something
43:57
there. It's not just a bunch of crazy
43:59
people. Yeah.
43:59
Horses are magic. Anything else on the research
44:02
that's? I guess I do want to.
44:03
So I was looking into some of the recent work on the horse
44:07
human connection and it's, it's growing exponentially.
44:11
But I wanted to note that in the last like 3 months, so from
44:14
September, yeah, September, November and December of 2025,
44:18
three different scales to measure human equine interaction
44:24
were published, which that is a lot of scales focus on the human
44:28
horse relationship in the context of attachment to come
44:31
out in a very short period of time.
44:33
And then they all have a little bit different of an approach to
44:36
measuring the horse human relationship.
44:37
Most of them are in the context of attachment theory and the
44:40
insecure attachment versus avoidant attachment versus
44:42
secure attachment. And they all, of course, kind of
44:45
look at different populations. But I just thought that was
44:47
really interesting to note that people are fascinated by this
44:52
human horse interaction and relationship depending on who
44:55
you're talking to partnership, right?
44:57
And they're trying to measure it quantitatively.
44:59
They're using like one of them actually took a pet attachment
45:03
questionnaire and adapted it to a horse, whereas others kind of
45:07
took more of the human to human attachment scales and kind of
45:10
combine them for a horse human attachment scale.
45:13
So it's really exciting to see that happening just moving
45:17
forward because people are recognizing that there is an
45:20
attachment potentially between humans and horses, right?
45:23
Which all of us who have courses are like, well, yeah.
45:26
But it's going to be really neat to see kind of how that plays
45:30
into the interactions that we see in the outcomes that we see
45:34
from, for example, equine assisted interventions.
45:37
Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah.
45:39
You mentioned something earlier which I meant to ask you about
45:41
and forgot. What have you seen in relation
45:44
to boundaries? And people are needing out
45:46
boundaries as they work with horses.
45:48
That comes up all the time in research and in practice as an
45:53
assistant practitioner. I feel like.
45:55
I think, yeah, I think, you know, the one that gets me every
45:58
time is if you say, you know, oh, go say hi to that horse,
46:02
what do people do? They immediately walk up and
46:05
grab them, right? Touch them somewhere, their
46:08
face. And I think, you know, when I'm
46:10
doing equine assisted work or training people to do it, I will
46:14
often tell the person beforehand, of course.
46:16
But if I have like a person I know I'll let everybody go do
46:19
it. And I do it with horses, of
46:20
course, that are welcoming to that or will just walk away.
46:23
And they can, you know, set those boundaries themselves when
46:25
I circle everyone exactly. But when I bring everyone back,
46:28
I will purposefully like walk up to the person that I told I was
46:32
going to do this and be like, hello, how are you today?
46:34
And people are always like, what are you doing?
46:36
Right. It's so unfounded in our human
46:39
world. Right.
46:40
But then I say, how many of you just went up and I, you know, I
46:43
never want to blame. So I do some rapport building
46:45
before I directly ask that and it's more of them.
46:47
I still do it. And I'm like OK, don't want that
46:49
right now, sorry. Yeah, So, you know, people are
46:53
often like, oh, my goodness. Like, I didn't even think about
46:57
that, right. Like, I did not think that that
46:59
was even a thing. And then I start asking
47:01
questions like, well, what did the horse do when you did that?
47:03
And they're like, well, they walked away, or they turned
47:05
their head away or they tried to bite me or, you know, all these
47:08
things. I'm like, so why'd you keep
47:09
doing it? And they're like, because that's
47:11
what you do. And I'm like, you know, like,
47:14
interesting. Correlation, yeah.
47:16
Exactly. And then you we go into, you
47:19
know, like, and I'm not a therapist, so I don't cross the
47:21
bed to help line. But you know, I'll say, you
47:23
know, think about what other places in your life do you do
47:26
this? And then I of course, I give
47:28
them a chance again to go back out and have a different type of
47:31
interaction. And sometimes I'll say, like,
47:34
don't touch them, don't need to touch them.
47:35
Like see what you can do with your body without touching them.
47:38
You know, you talk to people and we'll do it with people too.
47:40
I'll be like, OK, go move this person, but don't touch them.
47:43
And I think just understanding that the presence that your body
47:46
has, the impact of your energy and the base between the beings,
47:50
there's so many different pieces there that I think with a horse,
47:54
you know, or they're so visual for humans, right?
47:56
Like, oh, yeah, the horse doesn't want to work with me.
47:58
So they literally galloped across the field, right?
48:01
Like, that is a clear vision that like, something's not
48:04
right. And some people are like, oh,
48:06
they're just grumpy today, right?
48:07
And I'm like, I think we need to do some, you know, self talk
48:11
here and like, are we putting the blame on the horse or are we
48:14
really looking at ourselves and thinking, like, what impact did
48:17
I have on that? And I'm saying, you know, not
48:19
every time a horse goes galloping across the field, it's
48:21
because of an ungrounded human, right?
48:24
Sometimes there's legitimate reasons.
48:25
But I think as humans, you know, we do need to be so aware of
48:29
these boundaries and boundaries that perhaps we don't think
48:32
about on a daily basis. What is your boundary for
48:35
people? Some people are hyper aware of
48:37
what their boundary is. Some people have no idea.
48:40
And some people, you know, don't think about what other people's
48:43
boundaries are either. So again, those carry over from
48:46
kind of in the horse human realm to the human human realm.
48:50
And it's really important. And of course, understanding
48:52
horses, right? They all have their own
48:53
boundaries too within the herd. And then how they move each
48:56
other and coexist with each other.
48:58
I think, you know, it's just all about that community education
49:01
and understanding. But yeah, the boundary piece
49:03
comes up with my work, with the kids, with the veterans.
49:07
It comes up actually with my work in the dogs as well.
49:10
And not only like physical boundary, but what do they like?
49:13
What do they don't like? How can I support those likes
49:16
and dislikes? Gives really clear perspective
49:19
taking when you can kind of put yourself in that place.
49:23
And then it's also interesting because I feel like when it's
49:26
human to human, we can get so caught up in our thoughts and we
49:29
can say, well, that's because they're, they're grouchy, not
49:31
because of something I did That's, you know, instead of
49:34
being like, well, it may be true that they're grouchy, but also
49:37
you have a piece to it. Also understand that every
49:40
interaction we have is a two way interaction that we're both
49:43
playing a part in it. It's really neat.
49:46
It's a neat skill to teach, especially for kids or those in
49:50
situations where boundaries really are.
49:52
If some good boundaries could be put in place, it could really
49:54
change relationships and people's mental health because
49:58
they can realize like, oh, it's getting to be too much.
50:00
I need to set a boundary or they're setting a boundary for
50:03
me. I need to respect that type of
50:05
thing. So really powerful skills to
50:07
learn for sure. So tell us a little bit about
50:10
how horses, what your experience has been with horses, the impact
50:13
they've had on you. That's such a hard question, but
50:16
it's so easy. It's such a hard question, but
50:18
it's such an easy question. At the same time.
50:19
I think horses have tremendously shaped my life.
50:23
So when I, for example, when I found Buck, who I mentioned
50:25
earlier, like I was going through some stuff that was
50:29
pretty challenging. So going to the barn, not only
50:31
kind of because I got hurt skating, but for some other
50:33
reasons as well, was kind of my escape of the world.
50:36
But it was my escape of the world.
50:38
But he was really in tune to what was happening with me, I
50:42
think, from a human perspective, not from a researcher
50:45
perspective. And yeah, we're back to the
50:49
human. And he would just call me out on
50:52
things, right? Like, if I came in with whatever
50:54
I was carrying that day, I had to leave it at the gate before I
50:58
did anything with him. And he was pretty kind about it.
51:01
He would set boundaries, but he would be very strict with his
51:05
boundaries. But he would also do it in a
51:07
very polite way, I think. So Bentley is my Morgan that I
51:10
got in college and he, I don't even know how to describe him.
51:16
He has had tremendous impact just on my learning to work with
51:20
horses. He has put up with a lot from
51:24
me, but he also gives it back, which I appreciate.
51:28
So we have a very commutative relationship.
51:31
You could say. He and I, he's awesome.
51:34
He's done a lot of everything together.
51:37
We've done some hunter jumper, we've done some venting, we've
51:39
done some dressage. We've, you know, Fox on it.
51:40
And with him in his prime, he's a little bit older now and has
51:43
some arthritis. So we don't do as much as we
51:46
used to. But I could get on or I could
51:49
lay him down, get on with no attack, jump A-26 course, lay
51:52
him down and get off. And he loved that.
51:55
Like the fact that he could do what he loved to do and I was
51:58
just a passenger. That was his thing.
52:01
Same, like when we go, we'd go trail riding.
52:04
We would go get to a river, for example, and like little stream,
52:07
I wouldn't call it a river. Yeah.
52:09
You know, I'd he loved to jump. I would, you know, as a human,
52:12
you go like, oh, do we need to go down or do I need to canter
52:15
to that or do you need to trot to that?
52:16
Like, you know, we try to like, control what's happening, right.
52:19
And I learned very quickly that I just needed to literally drop
52:23
my reins and say, OK, Bentley, take care of us.
52:28
Yeah. And he knew where his seat were,
52:29
right? Fundamentally, it changed my
52:31
perspective of control and of working together with someone is
52:36
there. And he's still, he still does
52:39
that every day. I think I had a baby five months
52:43
ago and he during the whole pregnancy was kind of like
52:47
something's up. And I don't really understand
52:49
it, but like, I'll still, you know, be with you, but like,
52:52
man, not so much. And then she came out and
52:55
obviously, like, I wear her a lot out there.
52:57
Then like at first he was very interested in her, like, what is
53:00
what is that? Why is she there?
53:02
And then, of course, like she's an extension of me.
53:04
So now he just kind of looks at her like, OK, you can do this.
53:07
And, you know, she's learning to like grab things and move her
53:09
hands. So she loves like, grab him and
53:12
stuff. So he fundamentally, I think
53:14
someone else would be like, what are you doing?
53:15
Like he's unpredictable when he's actually very predictable.
53:20
And, you know, I have learned how to communicate with him and
53:22
trust him in that. So yeah, I think that was a
53:25
really roundabout answer for him.
53:26
But then Izzy, who's the mayor that I lost, she was very young
53:30
when she passed. Unfortunately, we had a freak
53:32
accident, but she was the one. She came to me pretty much
53:36
unhandled, and she had just a little bit of handling, but she
53:40
really flipped what I knew about horses on its head.
53:44
In the best way. Yeah.
53:47
And I yeah, I could do everything with her at liberty
53:51
in the beginning, like grooming, you know, I could doctor up her
53:55
wounds. I could lead her around.
53:57
Soon as a rope came out of any kind, she was like, no, I am not
54:02
interested. And we don't really know about
54:04
her background or what where she came from or anything.
54:07
But she was the most rewarding. Maybe.
54:10
I don't know. They're all rewarding different
54:11
ways. Yeah, she really challenged me
54:14
in so many ways because I really had to learn how to connect in a
54:18
very different way. I think Bentley was more
54:21
outspoken. He was kind of loud, and I could
54:24
be loud back and it would be OK. And of course we were quiet too.
54:27
But, you know, sometimes he would be like, no, I'm not doing
54:29
that. I'd be like, yeah, you are.
54:30
And he'd be like, well, you're not asking like that.
54:32
You know, you kind of have those.
54:34
And Izzy was more like, oh, you asked like this, I'm going to
54:37
answer like an explosion. And I'd be like, whoa, I
54:40
literally just, you know, I just want you to do this.
54:42
And I think I was grounded. And I think I was, you know,
54:46
aware of my energy. And she would be like, not quite
54:48
there yet, right? Like, I'm not doing that.
54:50
But yeah. So we ended up, yeah, we got.
54:53
I had her for about two years and to this day I'm devastated
54:57
by her loss so. Hard.
54:59
Yeah, but she taught me more than that two years then I've
55:02
ever learned from a horse overtime.
55:05
And then Fergus, who's my paint cross.
55:07
We got him actually for my husband and he is the biggest
55:11
just love bug ever. He just loves to be in your
55:15
space. He's super kind and tolerant.
55:19
And we'll set boundaries, but it's very soft about them.
55:21
And we'll say, I don't think you want to ask like that.
55:23
I think you want to do this. And you know, if he gets
55:25
nervous, you can just pet him and say that he likes to be pet.
55:28
Bentley doesn't like to be pet, but for his you can give him a
55:30
scratch and he'd be like, you're all right, bud.
55:32
And he's like, OK, I'm good and like move forward.
55:35
And yeah, exactly. So I think, you know, all of the
55:38
horses I worked with, you know, they, they, they're modeling
55:41
relationships and they're modeling communication and they
55:43
all communicate in such different ways.
55:45
And I think I've been able to, you know, adapt all of these
55:48
things to my students, to my family, to, you know, somebody,
55:53
the grocery store, right? Like you can feel when someone's
55:55
having a bad day in front of you online, right, or in back of you
55:57
online. And, you know, being aware of my
55:59
energy and how my space is impacting someone else's or how
56:03
my boundaries, whether I'm setting them intentionally or
56:05
not, or impacting others, I think, you know, it has a
56:08
tremendous impact on just how I move through life.
56:11
And yeah, I'm, I'm so grateful for that opportunity.
56:15
And, you know, anytime I get to meet a new horse or work with a
56:18
new horse, I'm, I'm so, so grateful for the opportunity
56:21
because they all have something very different and to bring to
56:24
the table and just like a human. And I think that, yeah, that's
56:29
just, it just means so much to me.
56:30
And I could never, I don't know, I can never fully explain what,
56:34
what they've done for me. But so it's been a lot there.
56:37
Are such incredible teachers and just the different horses that
56:40
come into your life at different times.
56:42
It's really interesting see how that plays out for so many
56:45
people cause a lot of times, just like you said, you get this
56:49
really difficult horse and it's like I actually needed all of
56:52
lessons that you had to teach me even though I didn't necessarily
56:55
want them. Yeah, yeah.
56:57
Really cool opportunities for personal growth if you take it
57:01
that way, you know if. You exactly.
57:02
Open to that experience. Yeah.
57:05
And I think the willingness to be open is the key piece.
57:07
And that's something that, you know, over time, Yeah, like I
57:10
just keep encountering over and over and over again.
57:13
And you know, as someone who does like the Ecorn assisted
57:16
work, but also has taught lessons and you know, worked
57:18
with problem horses in the past, right?
57:21
You know, it's, it's all about the persons willingness to see,
57:25
really see and really feel what's in front of them and
57:29
what's inside of them, right, and how those things connect.
57:32
And a lot of times the issues that not always, but a lot of
57:35
times the issues that we see within human horse relationships
57:39
are, you know, it's because there's a lack of communication
57:42
happening between the two. And you really have to be
57:45
willing to look at that and willing to say, you know, my
57:49
horse isn't naughty. My horse isn't whatever label
57:54
you want to put on your horse. Yeah.
57:56
Yeah, yeah. And kind of dig into that.
57:59
And I think I, I love helping people find that and I love
58:03
holding people accountable to that.
58:04
And I think sometimes, like when I first started people, they're
58:07
like, wait, what? Like why does it matter what I
58:09
did at work today? A before we go into the arena.
58:13
And I'm like, because I need to know, because, you know, I need
58:15
to know what what's going to happen.
58:17
And they're like, why does it matter?
58:19
Yeah. And what does it matter?
58:20
And I'm like, well, you tell me what it matters.
58:22
And then they're like, like, oh, yeah.
58:24
So you know, when you walk in the door at home, the energy you
58:28
bring home affects your kids, your spouse, your animals,
58:32
right. The trajectory of your night, if
58:34
you come in with one energy over another.
58:36
And I think, yeah, it's, it's just it's one of my favorite
58:39
things to do is to watch individuals and horses just
58:42
blossom because people took a step back and said, oh, like,
58:46
I'm digging into this further. Like there is something
58:49
happening beyond the label that I or others have given this
58:54
relationship. Yeah, they really do help us
58:56
hone in our self-awareness instead of moving on autopilot
59:01
and making those assumptions, you know, that they're being
59:03
naughtier. They just don't feel like it
59:05
today or whatever. Well, why don't they feel like
59:07
it? Like why are they existing,
59:09
something they normally do, But really, yeah, start to question,
59:12
you know, our thoughts, what we're going in with, what we're
59:15
assuming, and of course, super great lessons for life and
59:19
relationships. You kind of question and wonder
59:22
and be curious instead of like we know all the answers and this
59:26
is the way it has to be. And I think too, and when you
59:29
get too confident, you're like, oh, I figured this one out.
59:31
Or I know this situation that's often when they're like, Nope.
59:36
And I think that to me, that's the exciting part, is, you know,
59:40
trying something new or doing something differently, even
59:43
though you've done it the same way for, yeah, however long.
59:46
That is exciting and I think it's something that's really
59:48
opening up in the horse world is kind of, there are lots of
59:51
different paths and ways and it's OK to be curious and not
59:54
have all the answers and to try stuff.
59:56
And so I love that there's more and more people talking about
59:58
that, that, yeah, maybe you were taught one way about maybe
1:00:01
another way is going to be better for you or equally good,
1:00:04
or at least explore it and see what.
1:00:05
Happens left. Neat.
1:00:07
I like, Yeah, beautiful. Well, tell everybody if there's
1:00:10
things we can do to support your work, where we can find you, all
1:00:13
that good stuff. Sure.
1:00:14
So I lead the human animal partnerships and interactions
1:00:17
lab or the happy lab at Purdue. So I think I shared our website
1:00:22
with everyone so you can check out kind of what we're doing
1:00:26
research wise. Perfect.
1:00:28
And then my personal website, which is just a different
1:00:31
reflection of what I'm currently working on, is Leon
1:00:33
needforth.com. But yeah, I'd love if anybody
1:00:36
wants to talk about research or has ideas for research
1:00:38
partnerships. I partner with nonprofits across
1:00:41
the country to do my work. And I always love chatting with
1:00:45
practitioners just because research isn't helpful unless
1:00:48
it's reaching the people who are actually doing the work.
1:00:51
And I think that's my mindset is to make sure that what I'm doing
1:00:54
as a researcher is directly benefiting the people who are
1:00:57
doing the work, or in this case, you know, the people who are
1:00:59
interacting with horses or helping people with horses or
1:01:02
helping horses. Yeah, I love that.
1:01:04
Well, and I just want to commend you for doing this work.
1:01:06
I think it is so native because a lot of us, like we've talked
1:01:10
about, we kind of know that there's something there.
1:01:12
It can be hard to describe. And like you say, when we live
1:01:15
in the world that we live in now, you need that proof that
1:01:19
things are working and you need that explanation of why they're
1:01:22
working. So that, like you say, insurance
1:01:24
companies will be like, OK, maybe we will put money here
1:01:27
because look, it works and people are getting better and
1:01:30
it's saving lives and doing all these things.
1:01:32
So I really love that you're going into that world, breaking
1:01:36
it apart so that hopefully in the future it will be something
1:01:39
that's more mainstream. It will be something that people
1:01:42
know about and see and that there is support for.
1:01:45
So thank you for all your work there and thanks for coming on
1:01:48
and talking all about horses and everything that you're finding
1:01:51
out and learning and gaining support for.
1:01:54
Thanks for having me. Yeah, and thanks for this
1:01:56
podcast. It's been wonderful to listen to
1:01:58
it. Your greatest asset and your
1:01:59
greatest this barrier is your mind.
1:02:02
Ioffer individualized coaching opportunities for those wanting
1:02:05
to understand how you can turn your mind from an enemy to an
1:02:09
ally so you can achieve your goals and live the life you
1:02:12
dream of. Visit the Touch of a mustang.org
1:02:15
For more information. Thank you for joining us and
1:02:19
learning about horses that heal and the humans who help them.
1:02:22
We hope you'll continue with us on this journey.
1:02:25
We'd love for you to subscribe on your favorite platform and
1:02:28
follow the touch of a Mustang on any of the major social media
1:02:31
outlets. Please share with your friends
1:02:33
anyone who loves horses or anyone who might be struggling
1:02:36
and could benefit from this message.
1:02:38
If you have felt the healing power of horses or help them in
1:02:42
their divinely appointed mission, please reach out.
1:02:45
We want to hear your story. As we say goodbye, always
1:02:48
remember that the horse is always there to help you heal.