Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Debating the Age of the Earth | Derek Gilbert and Donna Howell

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Debating the Age of the Earth | Derek Gilbert and Donna Howell · The Week in Bible Prophecy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello. I'm Gary Steerman of Prophecy Watchers, and with me
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: at the roundtable we have Derek Gilbert on my left,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: and across from me we have a lady you need
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: to get to know. She is very, very smart, and
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: I just had to say that right up front.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: And her name is Don Howell, and welcome to Prophecy Watchers.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We've got a lot to talk about and a lot
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: of time to talk, and we're going to discuss a
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: general subject. What can we call the subject we're talking
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: about today?
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: We wanted to look at the idea that we've got
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: several different voices that are weighing in on the question
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: of the Earth's age and whether or not that is
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: even relevant in evangelism or the long term redemptive story
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: of scripture. So it's kind of a twofold question, a
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: just on the voices alone. We have the scientific community
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: saying one thing about how old the Earth is. We
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: have theologia that are in the Old Earth, and we
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: have theologians in the Young Earth camps, and they're all
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: coming to kind of different conclusions and they're all pointing
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: well over here, this scientist found the proof that the
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Earth is old. Over here, a scientist found proof that
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: the Earth is young. And everybody's arguing. And it's a
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: lot more important to the redemptive story and to evangelism
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: than we might think, because right now you have a very,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: very scientifically minded young generation that is approaching the idea
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: of is there a God? And if so, which one?
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: And if you start from the very beginning, and Christianity
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: says you can't be a Christian unless you agree with
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: the idea that the Earth is six to ten thousand
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: years old, and that's it. It never goes any further
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: back than that. If that's your stance, you've just lost
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: every scientifically minded young up and comer who is looking
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: at the Bible with a scientific lens.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Well, the usual rejoinders of that remark would be, well, hey,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: all I have to do is walk out and look
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: up in the sky and see all those stars, and
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: the scientists tell me their X number of light years
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: away and billions and billions of years have elapsed, and
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: so I'll take the scientific method.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's it's not even so much scientifically minded,
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: it is scientistically minded. The idea that science is the
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: only tool we can use to answer the big questions,
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: where do we come from, why are we here?
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: And what happens when we die?
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: And of course those are the questions that are answered
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: between the covers of the Bible.
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: But if we seed to science.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: The ideas that Okay, the Earth is six billion years old,
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: or the solar system is fifteen billion years old or whatever,
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: and we've got to somehow shoehorn then six or ten
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: thousand years of biblical time into that fifteen, the standard
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: reaction is, well, you just got to have faith, and
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: so we have to reject science. What Void Earth does
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: is say, no, there is no contradiction here. We don't
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: deny the data, the scientific data. We just argue over
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: the interpretation of the data. And perhaps the tools that
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: the scientists are using are not correct because there are
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: flaws in their tools that they acknowledge and admit, but
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: they won't then address them, and so they're stuck on
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: their belief that the universe is fifteen billion years old.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: Except there's a new study that just came out and
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: I mentioned that in the documentary that wait, no, it's
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: not fifteen billion, it's twenty six billion.
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: So wait a minute.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: I thought the science was settled on this issue. Now
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: you're saying it's twenty six billion years old, what is it?
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Is the science really settled after all?
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: No, it isn't. And that's one of the main points
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: that we bring up in the documentary.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Now that's a perfect, perfect introduction for Genesis one one,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: which I just have to read in the beginning. God
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: created the heaven, it says in my good old King
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: James translation the Heaven and the Earth. And there have
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: been a number of books written about Genesis one, one, two,
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  Speaker 1: three and so forth. But maybe we could just substru
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: toward universe. God created the universe, which included the earth,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: and how where do we go from there? And where?
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: And in your research, you know, in your writing, where
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: do we take that?
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: Well, we have to go to verse two, which is
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: the earth was without form and void. But there is
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: a question as to whether the original Hebrew, which is
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: more nuanced than our English translations. I think that's the
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: other thing we as English speakers need to realize. The
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: Bible wasn't written in English, so the original language may
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: have some different.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Well, that's why I pushed on the word of heaven. Right.
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  Speaker 1: A lot of people say the heavens and the earth.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: Well, and actually the Hebrew is schemaim, which is plural plural,
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: so it is heavens. Okay, So what are the multiple heavens?
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: You know, Paul mentioned a second heaven and a third heaven.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: So what are we talking.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you glad you said that.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, because there is a spirit realm that is outside
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  Speaker 3: the perception of most of us humans, and He created
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: the angelic realm to occupy that domain, created Adam and
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: Eve and their children to occupy this domain, which is
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: why when Jude talks about the sinful angels of Genesis six,
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: you know, they kept not their proper estate, They left
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: their proper dwelling, they kept not their first estate in
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: the King James, meaning that they didn't stay where they
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: were where they were created to be. They came here
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  Speaker 3: and interceded, interfered in the natural order of things because
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: they weren't supposed to be here. So there are multiple heavens.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: But did they did God go directly from that to
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: creating you know, light, and then you know these seven
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: days of creation and void earth suggests that no, there
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: was something that was created that was intended to be perfect,
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: and it became formless and void, and that is that
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: is what's explored here, and that also has some explanatory
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: power for reconciling the apparent differences between the number of
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: years described in the Bible and the number of years
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: science said it required for us to get from creation
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: to where we are.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: And there's a very important word in became that we
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: need to remember. This is based on the Hebrew hyah,
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: and what that really means is became. But unfortunately it
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: is translated into English in Genesis one, one and two
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: as was the earth was. Well, Now what that sounds
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: like if you put that in an incredibly simple terms,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: it sounds like God is in the middle of creating
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: a planet and making all things that we now can
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: see and observe, and at that time hadn't been completely
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: developed yet he was still working on it. Like it
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: sounds midway done when we say it was without form
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  Speaker 2: and void. But that's the word hiah in Hebrew. It's
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: the same word that we get over in Genesis nineteen
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  Speaker 2: twenty nineteen and twenty six that says that Lot's wife
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: became hya a pillar of salt. Now why and over
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: in the Psalms we have it in several places. Why
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: does that word over here get translated in English as
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: was Well, that's a whole conversation that could go into
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: multiple different directions, But the bottom line, the word means
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: that the Lord was creating the heavens and the earth,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: that he had done a creation and then something happened
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: to it that became without form and void. Now the
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: words without form and void. Really, honestly, if I had
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: three hours to get into all of the different scholars
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: that weighed in on this, the book did so. We
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: did get into it, some of it in Void Earth
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: the documentary. But the bottom line is that the overwhelming
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: majority of Hebrew experts scholars who are not only very
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: well learned in the language of Hebrew, but also so
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: in the obsolete Hebrew dialects, including biblical euphemisms and patterns
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: of speech that are completely obsolete today, no longer even
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: in use. They are experts in this field of what
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: it is the writer was trying to convey. And a
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: better translation is that in the beginning there was the
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: earth and then it was rendered an uninhabitable wasteland of chaos.
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  Speaker 2: It just doesn't say who did so. And that's where
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: we kind of come in and see where all voices merge.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: That's where all voices merged.
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  Speaker 1: What we're supposed to understand then, is something horrible happened.
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  Speaker 1: We're supposed to take note of the fact that something
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  Speaker 1: horrible happened and then God reacted in the way that
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: is illustrated as you go through Genesis, the creation of
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: Adam and Eve, garda Eden, and all the creation right
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: up to the time of the great Flood of Noah.
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  Speaker 1: We see that something happened and there were consequences for
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: that something. And I think that's where the disagreement comes in.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: And this what Don is describing is not just trying
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: to come up with a new and novel way of
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: understanding Genesis one, verse one, to come up with a
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: new book and a new DVD. There is biblical evidence
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: of this, as we mentioned on the broadcast program Isaiah
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: forty five eighteen, where the prophet rights that God created
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  Speaker 3: the heavens. He is God who formed the earth and
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: made it. He established it. He did not create it empty.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: He formed it to be inhabited. That implies that the
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: earth was created to be inhabited. That again, something terrible
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: happened that left it formless and void, chaotic and empty,
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: and that God had to then step in. And Genesis one,
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: verse two suggests that this was the subduing of chaos.
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  Speaker 3: The earth was without form and void, darkness was over
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: the face of the deep. And the word they're deep
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: is to home, which is a cognate for a Sumerian
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  Speaker 3: word Tiamat. Well, Tiamat just happens to be the name
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: of the Sumerian chaos dragon or chaos monster that had
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: to be subdued by a warrior god.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Now you mentioned dragon and that they're the plot thickened, Yes.
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  Speaker 4: Uh, Dragons.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: In fact, Sharon and I wrote about this in our
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: book Giants, Gods and Dragons. Dragons are We've got this
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  Speaker 3: Tolkien j R. R. Tolkien idea of you know, Smaug
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: and the dragons who being these flying reptiles. But even
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: in scripture there is a hint that some of the
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: angelic realm may be serpentine in appearance the Nakash in
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: Genesis chapter three, the serpent in the garden clearly not
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: a talking snake. Eve didn't freak out when the serpent
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: spoke to her because it was something she was used
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: to seeing, right, But the word nakash is used in
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: number twenty one, for example, interchangeably with the word seraf
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  Speaker 3: which is the singular form of saraphim, the Nahashim seraphim,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: the fiery serpents that bit the Israelites and Moses had
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: to put the serpent on the bronze poll. So it
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: suggests that the Seraphim, who we only see elsewhere in
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: Isaiah six his throne room vision of God, may have
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: had a serpentine appearance. So you've got these radiant serpentine
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: things flying fiery. So what will you call a flying
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: fiery serpent except the dragon. But clearly in Revelation twelve,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: Satan described as a dragon, and Leviathan described by the
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: prophet Isaiah and in the Psalms as a dragon Isaiah
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  Speaker 3: twenty seven, verse one, in fact, which is a prophecy
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  Speaker 3: of the ultimate destruction of Leviathan, which is the embodiment
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: of chaos, which is what we're talking about in Genesis one,
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: verse two, formlessness and void and emptiness, chaos, Leviathan, that
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: dragon that lives in the sea, God will ultimately destroy it.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: So that's what we're dealing with. And this is a
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: story that is repeated again and again an ancient Mesopotamian
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: religion where Tiamat Desumer had to be defeated by Mardick.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: That's part of the Babylonian creation story, the new Elish.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: In Canaanite religion, it's Bail who defeats Yam, which is,
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  Speaker 3: by the way, the Hebrew word.
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: For c which is significant the chaos dragon.
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  Speaker 3: In fact, the Isaiah twenty seven to one actually borrows
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: from the Bail cycle and describing Leviathan as that fleeing serpent,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: the twisting serpent. That's a quote from the Bail cycle
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: from five hundred years before the time of Isaiah. So
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: this is a well known story in the ancient world.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: A warrior god Zeus Typhon set a popas god Yahweh
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: and Leviathan. That's the original story. These others are fake
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: news versions of that story. Yeah, chaos had to be
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: subdued for the world to be created and inhabitable for humanity,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: and the Pagans had the story. It was just a
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: twisted version of what's in scripture.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: And here's what's funny. You mentioned Isaiah for eighteen and
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: what's funny is that in that moment in that scripture
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: where it said God did not form the earth in
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: vain or as empty right that moment, right there is
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: the Hebrew word tohu. It's the same word used in
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: that string of words that says and the earth was
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: without form and void, or the earth became an uninhabitable
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: wasteland of chaos. It's that same word. So over here
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: in Isaiah forty five eighteen it specifically says God did
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: not create that messy thing you see in the beginning
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: of Genesis that the creation event actually essentially had to restore.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Now, the great sub theme in the Bible is for
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: the creation theme, but the great sub theme is rebellion
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: runs all the way through the book, and we're part
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: of that. You know, all of us were born in
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: sin and came short of the glory of God, and
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: we received Christ and we were then welcomed in the
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: family of God. We were pulled out by the grace
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: of God out of this what should you call it,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: this ongoing rebellion, which is the sub theme of the
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: entire Bible, beginning with the first sentence in the Bible.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's really astonishing when you start to see that
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: there were multiple rebellions, not just Eden as the late
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: doctor Michael Heiser used to say, if you'd ask a
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Jew in the Second Temple period, which is the time
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: of Jesus and the Apostles, why is the world in
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: such a mess? Contrary today, where Christians would say, well,
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: the fall in the garden, they would say, yeah, that's true.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: But you've also got the Genesis sixth incident on Mount
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: Hermand with the Watchers who came and corrupted humanity both
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: physically and through forbidden knowledge. Genesis eleven with the Tower
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: of Babel, humanity trying to re establish contact with the
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: old gods.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: And by the way, they were all most successful. God
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: look down and said, we've got to stop them. Yeah,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: they might actually be successful in fomenting yet another.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: Rebellion exactly, So you get multiple rebellions, and what Void
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Earth shows is that there was actually one prior to Eden,
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: with chaos making the earth formless and void, chaotic and empty.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: So yeah, again and again, the spirit realm created with
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: free will, just like we humans have chosen to rebel
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: against their creator, and God has intervened again and again
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: to redeem us, to restore the earth, to redeem humanity,
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: and ultimately, according to the prophecies that we study Isaiah
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: twenty seven, Revelation twenty one. There is a day coming
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: when even chaos will be destroyed. I think it's fascinating
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: because we know from scripture from Colassians one fifteen that
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: all things were created through Christ, and in him all
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: things hold together very created order. So what would be
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: more anti Christ than disorder?
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Wow, A lot to think about. Now, let's look at
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: there is a kind of a dark side that's going
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: on in the discussion of the series of events that
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: we're trying to break down and understand. There's a little
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: hard feeling among Christians from time to time who disagree
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: with this analysis of the Bible and do not see
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: this breakdown that we're talking about Genesis one two or
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: between Genesis one one and one two a breakdown and recreation,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: but see it a different way. So let's let's talk
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: to that discussion.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: It's not, again, I would say, it's not trying to
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: come up with some novel new way to interpret the
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: creation account. It's digging deeper to see how far has
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: God gone to redeem us, to save us from these
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: these fallen spirit beings that have tried to reject that
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: have rejected the authority of their creator. And it's not
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: a it's not also it's not a prioritization of science
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: over scripture either.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: No, no, can I speak on that for a second.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: We have this never ending idea that if somebody takes
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: science into the equation when speaking about a theological topic
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: or vice versa, that they're trying to make the Bible
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: agree with science, or trying to make science agree with
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: the Bible. Here's the thing, when did that become such
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: a terrible motive? Anyway? I understand that if if at
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: any point in time in our theological pursuits that we say, hmm,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: I guess God doesn't win over here, because science says,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: then we're making a mistake. We've got to reinterpret. We've
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: got to back up, we've got to relook at the evidence,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: we have to relook at everything. And also understand, as
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: you have just pointed out several times in this very episode,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: science constantly updates its own database. So yesterday what was
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: known about the Earth and the constance of time is
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: today everybody's laughing and saying, never mind, the Earth isn't
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: fourteen fifteen billion years old, is twenty six billion years Okay,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: science is gonna update itself all of the time. The
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: interpretation of scripture, not scripture, not the infallibility of the
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Word of God as it was originally penned by the
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Holy Spirit through the writing of men, but the interpretation
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: of that document is also going to be something that
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: every great Once in a while, we find a mistake.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: In Galileo's day, we had a mistake because in Galileo's
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: day there was this never ending debate about what was
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: at the center of the universe. Was it the cent
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: or was it the earth? And according to that day's
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: church's understanding of a verse in Psalm was that the
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Earth cannot be moved, so they assumed that the Earth
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: was at the center and Galileo from the time of Copernicus.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: For the Galileo, there was proof that it was the
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: other way around. And the Church basically said, if you
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: don't accept not scripture, but if you don't accept our
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: interpretation of scripture, you are less spiritual, you're a heretic,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: you're an athema. There is this whole history where the
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Church made a bungling mistake. When did it become here's
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the bottom line, When did it become a bad thing
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: that somebody would read the Bible and look at what
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: science is saying and see where those two might actually
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: come together. Because let me tell you something, this gets
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: me riled. God has revealed himself in two ways, not one.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Two ways. Number one the word of God. Number two Creation.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Creation is his physical, physiological revelation to mankind. We the
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: very oxygen we breathe is a declaration of God. He said,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: let there be oxygen. That's why we're breathing. Everything that
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: he created is a revelation to us. We look at it,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: we observe it, We do the best we can to
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: understand it, but we make constant mistakes. Then he wrote
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: the Word. So if God created the earth and he did,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: and if God wrote the Bible and inspired man to
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: put it in the form that we have original Greek
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: and Hebrew, and he did, then God is the god
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: of both the Word and science. And making one theme
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: that we is those two threads together is not wrong.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: It's actually a form of worship that we would do
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: so that we would be willing to observe what he created,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: observe what he wrote, and go ping, I see it.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Science is basically the tool we use to appreciate the
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: wonder of God's creation.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: There you go used the word science. Now what a
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: controversial word that is. Science has been dragged through the
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: mud in so many different venues and someone will say
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: this is science. Someone over here is no, no, this
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: is science. Over here, no, no, no, says the third person,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: this is science.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And we go back. And as you two were talking,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I was thinking of Darwinism, the idea of spontaneous creation
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: by the con favorable confluence of chemicals, minerals, et cetera, temperature,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: A series of events happened and suddenly out of that
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: spring life and this became a very very powerful idea,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: as you well know, in the nineteenth, twentieth and on
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: into the twenty first centuries. And so how do we
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: address that thought? How do we put that in this context?
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: It's really frustrating because it's a circular argument. Essentially, Darwinian
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: evolution comes down to this, we're here, aren't we.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in the beginning, there was nothing, and then it exploded.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Nothing willed itself into something, which is a ludicrous idea
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: even but even biologists admit evolutionary biologists will admit that
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: they don't have the intermediate.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: Forms of species.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: You cannot point to the intermediate species between the pre
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: human primates and modern Homo sapiens. In fact, there was
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: a study that was published back in December of two
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: thousand and four by a professor Henneberg at the University
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: of Adelaide, and this stuck with me because it was
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: so astonishing. He did a survey of the two hundred
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: or so extant fossils of hominins, which are supposed to
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: be proto human fossils, and I thought there would be
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: thousands or millions of them, because you know, the science
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: says that we know that we were, you know, Austrolopithecus,
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: and then we became Homo erectus. But no, there are
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: only two hundred extant fossils. And when he measured them
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: found that all of the measurements of these two hundred
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: or so pre human fossils, they're all fall within the
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: standard devia for what you'd expect from Homo sapiens. And
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: the the article is published in the Telegraph on I
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: remember the date December twenty sixth of two thousand and four.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: I remember that date because that was the date of
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: the deadly earthquake and tsunami in Indonesia, and so that
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: story was suddenly buried by the news. Rightly so of
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: the tens of thousands of people who lost their lives
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: in Indonesia, but that was a huge story. All of
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: these fossils that are supposed to prove Darwinian evolution and
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: the evolution of modern man from proto human this and
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: he still believes it Darwinian evolution. This doesn't disprove evolution.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: It just shows that we've made some really, because you
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: just said that all of these fossils that are supposed
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: to approve Darwinian evolution are all Homo sapiens And that
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: was the headline of the article, but it got no
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: attention because it came out on the same day as that.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: And of course there's no reason for evolutionary biologists who
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: buy into Darwinian evolution to promote that story. So the
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: bottom line is this, the science is there. We've known
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: since the mid nineties when a paleontologist named Mary Schweizer
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: belief is at North Carolina State it could be a
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: University of North Carolina one or the other was the
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: first one to say, hey, we found soft tissue preserved
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: in the leg bone of a Tyrannosaurus rex. Wait a minute,
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: we thought they all died sixty five million years ago. Yes,
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: guess what we found now that soft tissue like collagen
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: can be preserved for sixty five million years.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: Wait a minute.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Up until up until the publication of her paper, this
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: could not be preserved more than a few thousand years.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: Soft tissue, even preserved in permafrost, is supposed to degenerate, degrade,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: and decay within a few thousand years. And now they're saying, hey,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: it's a miracle we now because they can't unsee their paradigm.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: So the scientific evidence is there. And as we'll say again,
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: we don't dispute the data, just the interpretation.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Of out data to avoid conclusions. What does this soft
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: tissue tell us?
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: The soft tissue tells us that the dinosaurs can't possibly
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: be sixty five million years old. They died much more
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: recently in time. And here's the other thing that we
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: talked about in one of the broadcast programs. A brilliant
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: physicist by the name of Barry Setterfield has been working
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: with the electric universe model for many, many years, and
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: this is the idea that the gravitational model is flawed
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: and does not account for anomalies in the standard scientific teachings.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: For example, the speed of light is changing. It is visibly,
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: not visibly, but it is observably changed. Even in during
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: our lifetimes, the speed of light is slowing. The massive
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: subatomic particles has changed.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Over the years.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: There have been measured changes. Planks constant, ironically, is not
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: a constant. That's supposed to be the smallest, smallest possible
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: unit of measure, beyond which you cannot subdivide a particle
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: any smaller. But it has been measured. It is changed.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: It is not a constant. The electric model argues that
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: at the beginning of creation, when God stretched out the universe,
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: as the Bible tells us ten times, you would potential
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: energy in the very fabric of space time itself.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: When that was released in what.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Astrophysicists would probably call the Big Bang, that potential energy,
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: like stretching out a rubber band, is converted to kinetic
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: energy as things snapped, and that infused creation with something
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: called zero point energy. And in our bodies there's something like,
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: according to Barry Centerfield, something like one hundred billion billion
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: virtual particles of zero point energy. And as light photons
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: moves through the ether, it encounters these virtual particles, and
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: every time it hits when it slows down just a
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: little bit. So the red shift observed by astronomers looking
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: at the edges of known space, it's not that they're
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: moving farther, faster, faster away from us. It's that light
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: is slowing down as it approaches us because it's going
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: through more obstacles between there and here. But the other
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: thing is this, as more of these virtual particles were
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: released with the Big Bang, if you will, light encountered
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: more and more obstacles, and so the speed of light
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: slowed dramatically in the first few days of creation. According
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: to Barry Setterfield's calculations, the first four days of creation
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: was the equivalent of about six billion years of time
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: on the atomic clock scale. So as we look back
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: in history, what we think is sixty five million years
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: may only have been a few thousand years of atomic time.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: As you're talking, and I'll come back with a rejoinder here,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: a non scientific rejoinder, and that is that as Christians,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: we think of something called this is a biblical term
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: that you may be familiar with, eternity, and we just
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: use that word. Luck, we know what it means, right, yeah, yeah,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: But what the Bible calls eternity may be describing exactly
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: what you were talking about.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: May well it may well, I don't think it's a
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: concept we really actually get our heads around.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: I think when you take all of the verses in
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: the Bible as it's related to time and eternity, you
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: kind of get this theme where once you put them
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: all together, you realize, Okay, there's us, and we are
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: limited to a Today is Monday, Tomorrow will be Tuesday.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: It's predictable, it's linear. It goes forward, and that's it.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: You can't get in a time machine yet, you can't
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: go backwards. You can't decide to fast forward to next Thursday.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: This is just how we are limited by these laws
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: of time. But eternity is it's not literally, it's it's
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: not only literally outside of a linear timeline and limited
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: by nothing, but it's also something that we haven't yet
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: experienced well enough to now decide what we think it means.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: So it is eternity linear? Does it? You know? Do
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: I die and go to be with Jesus, so that
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: that's the first day of eternity? And then I'm gonna
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: wake up the next day, and that's the second day
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: of eternity, and that's going to go forward forever. No,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: it's outside of time. And by the way, in the
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: eternal state, there is no night, so there is no day.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: There is just forever and ever and ever in the
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: awesome light.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Of God's That's a very interesting idea.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: I don't think we get out of time.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: And into eternity until the new Heaven and the new
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: Earth and the sea is no more. Sharon, in her
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: series of theological supernatural thrillers, The Red Wing Saga, writes
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: that time was created as a prison for the rebellious elohem,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: the fallen angels. If they could operate outside of time
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: the way God does, they could go back in history
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: and change things, and reality as we know it would
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: mean nothing because reality today. We see this in science
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: fiction story. Somebody goes back in history, they step on
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: a butterfly, and some everything has changed in the present day.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: That doesn't happen. It can't happen. You know, you're rebellion
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: linear time.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I'd say, I have to interrupt you.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: When we read about Lucifer's rebellion and I'm reading Isaiah
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: fourteen twelve. How art thou falling from heaven? Oh, Lucifer,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Son of the Morning, how does stop cut down? Art
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: thou cut down to the ground? Which did weaken the nations?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Lucifer may have been attempting to do what you're talking about.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: Well, Sharon writes that in the plot of her series
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: where these fallen angels are trying to break out of
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: their prison of time, trying to break the timelock as
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: it were. Yeah, they're stuck in linear time, just as
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: we are, and God created us to occupy a natural
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: world that was moving forward in linear time. But yeah, eternity,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: we will be freed from the chains of time linear time.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: But until that day when the rebels are destroyed.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Right now, we live in time space, yes, but you're
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: saying we may not always live in time space.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: Right and again, as we're learning thanks to brilliant scientists
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: and physicists like Barry Cetterfield and the late lamented Lambert Dolphin.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: Time is not a constant. The speed of light is
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: not a constant.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: So yeah, getting our heads around this is almost impossible
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: because we don't comprehend the mind of God.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: That's right. We as humans want to interpret time and
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: how much there was at the beginning and how much
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: they're based on our understanding of how there is now.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: We're limited and completely stuck to this life, this experience
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: called human life. That means that every day means twenty
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: four hours and all these things. So everything that we
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: identify has to be we think it has to be
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: described in those same terms. But it's funny because you're
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: talking about this early early time when something went and
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: something happened to the Earth that was big, catastrophic, awful.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: It's possible that that happened outside of time as well,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: because linear time doesn't even kick in until the creation
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: of Adam as far as we know, so prior to Adam,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: all this stretching of time and all the different things
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: happening in space, what hubris that we would come forward
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: and say everything has to fall into our scientific understanding
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: of today, including the dinosaurs. Now I don't mean to
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: change the subject but or redirect, but what I find
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: really really interesting is how not necessarily only Lucifer or
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: the Satan you know, or Hacitan or all of these
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: different old and new actually testament understandings of the name
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: of the enemy. There's a lot more than just the
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: one big bad guy going on in this narrative. But
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: when Tom and I first started to write before Genesis,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: we decided we wanted to look at who this character
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: could possibly be, and not just the five I wills,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: I will ascend, I will be like the most High,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: but also look at who who, these who, these enemies
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: plural could have potentially become. And we get to this
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: weird moment where, no matter how you parse it, the
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: spirit of iniquity is always, always uh linked with this
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: serpentine character. Now it may not have like Derek, you
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: and I have talked about it in the past. Is
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Lucifer the same as Shamiyaza? Are they all big one
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: bad guy? Maybe? Maybe not. There's the scholars don't agree
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: on that, and I and I tend to think that
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: you're probably right when you're seeing multiple bad guys, multiple falls,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: multiple events, all kind of culminating into what the Church
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: just sees as thus Satan the Lucifer. But without going
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: into that, it's the same spirit of rebellion and iniquity
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: that drives them all and all of them continue to
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: just no matter how you look at it, they get
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: joined back into this serpentine. Bear it, and now you
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: have the dinosaurs. Okay, let's give it to science sixty
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: six million years ago. If that's what you want to
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: insist on. Fine. If somebody in the Young Earth group
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: wants to say that they actually only died, you know,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: six thousand years ago, whatever, I don't whatever time it was, Okay,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: they were. The science acknowledges that originally dinosaurs were not
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: big and terribly great, as the word dinosauros actually does mean,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: it means terribly big or terribly great lizard. What originally
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: was was something about the size of a German shepherd,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: and scientists believe that they were vegetarian. So was the
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: dinosaur and all that that implies originally part of God's
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: great design. Why are they not here now? Everybody says,
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: we've got all these Christian T shirts that are funny,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: you know, like they didn't get the memo that today's
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: the day that the arc is taking off. The art
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: took off without them. Whatever. They they did make it
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: on the ark, but then the ark landed at Mount
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Era Rat there wasn't enough vegetation to keep them alive
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: and sustain their life. So it's almost like in that theory,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: God kept them and he sustained them for this entire
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: boat trip, but then he couldn't figure out oh way
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: to feed them after they landed. Is this all these
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: different ideas that are just kind of funny. That's why
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: we have the funny t shirts. What if what if
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: the original dinosaur we're talking about, the one the remains
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: the fossils of which the scientists now say was about
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: the size of a German shepherd at its largest and
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: very likely to be only vegetarian. What if that was
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: the design of God? And what if the Satan who
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: we discover over here in Genesis six, verses one through four,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: who completely had it out to warp the human DNA
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: to cut off the Messianic lines so that Jesus could
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: never be born, and they made this whole weird thing
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: where the fallen angels were with the women, and this
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: leading interpretation should understand that they did in fact corrupt
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: the human line and that's where the flood happened. First,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: what if that happened to the original dinosaur?
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, as you're talking, I'm
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: thinking of a cliche seed of the serpent, seed of
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: the woman, and which is often used in Biblical commentaries.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: You know, the seed of the serpent being that corrupt
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: seed that had to be stamped out. The seed of
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: the woman coming from Eve down to Mary and Nazareth
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: in the birth of our Messiah was God's answer to
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Satan's little experiment in years past.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: It's interesting to.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: Theorize about the Bible doesn't tell us explicitly, so we
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: can't say with certainty. But again the paleontologists who say
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: with certainty that the dinosaurs died sixty five million years ago,
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: except we can't explain the soft tissue, the collagen, the
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: blood vessels that have been preserved in the fossils. Okay,
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: they try to come up with an explanation for that.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: They don't know with any more certainty what we don't know.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: And there are areas in science where frankly, we don't
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: know and they don't know what they don't even know.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: So again, coming back to the anomalies in science, with
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: the speed of light, the changing weight of subatomic particles,
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: there are a lot of things that we assume are
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: fixed and have always been so, which are not, And
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: so again we can differ in interpretation. We don't have
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: to be afraid of the scientists.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, we know who the dragon is, yes, and we
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: know what the worship of the dragon is. It's still
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: practiced to this very day, the annual march with the
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: big paper mache dragon, you know, and so forth and
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: so long, and.
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: It's all over the world.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: And as Danna pointed out, in fact it's in the
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: documentary that the veneration serve is a very very ancient practice.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: In fact, it's not in the documentary. But we found
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: just in our reading on archaeology in the Holy Land
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: that there was certainly a cult of the serpent that
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: goes back to prehistoric era. And is it related to
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: the serpent mound of Bishan that's very close to Gilgal Refayem,
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: the Wheel of the Giants and the gold on Heights.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: Don't know, but there are many artifacts that have been
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: found in ancient Canaan, the pre Pottery, Neolithic and before
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: so again we're talking the Stone Age basically that appear
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: to point to a cult of the serpent. Why the serpent?
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: Is it because of these serpentine entities, the nakash or
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: the machine seraphim who visited humanity in the pre flood era.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: Bible doesn't tell us specifically, but it certainly would explain it.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: But it is everywhere in Stone. And you said a
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: moment ago, I want to clarify for the listener, you
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: said a moment ago that that wasn't covered in the documentary,
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: But that specific archaeological dig site that you just mentioned
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: was not covered in the documentary, but Void Earth the
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: documentary does cover a lot of those ancient psy That
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: one's the big I mean, there's literally a snakehead coming
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: out of the wall carved in stone, and he's monitoring
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: a room. I can't I don't think it's I don't
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: think it's a family friendly enough situation to say. But
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: what he is observing, let me just say this. It
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: points to the idea that in a very ancient time
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: there was a serpent god who led the people who
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: is still being venerated in stone in Karahan Heppy and
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: the carvings there, and that what he's overlooking is a
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: room that basically paints the larger picture that says, at
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: some point in history, the serpent people may copulated with women,
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: human women, and that is and that's what is happening
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: in that room. But there's so many archaeological sites all
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: over the ancient world gary that point religiously over and
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: over and over again as carved in own that there
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: was a serpent god being worshiped every single time.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: And the documentary does go into that and at Karahan Teppi,
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: which is an interesting little detail that is not often
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: talked about by the archaeologists because it ranges kind of
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: towards the woo factor that they like to avoid, that
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: there were a lot of sculptures there of humans, a
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: lot of depictions of humans a Kara Teppi, and they
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: all have six fingers.
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Wow, I'm going to go back in a few minutes.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: We have to Genesis and one two, and let's bring
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: this thing full circle. In the beginning, God created the
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: heaven and the earth, it says the King James, the
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: and void. Possibly the earth became without form and void.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: The darkness was upon the face of the deep. The
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: So we have foremostness, we have we have darkness. And
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: out of that came the first couple, the human species.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: And it was an act of creation in response to
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: what we've been talking about, and that's the thought that
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: I like to keep in my head. And other was
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: God had a solution to a problem, and you will
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: enunciate the problem.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the earth was made so that it was not inhabitable,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: but God intended for it to be the dominion the
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: birthright of the children of Adam and Eve. And the
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: multiple rebellions that followed with Satan in the garden, with
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: the sons of God in Genesis six, with the sons
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: of God who were delegated to oversee the nations after the.
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: Tower of Battle.
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: According to Deuteronomy thirty two, verse eight, that was all
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: intended to take dominion of the earth away from the
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: children of Adam and Eve, to steal our birthright. Yes,
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: like Esa trying to convince us to set like in
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: the garden. You know you can be as gods. Just
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: simply do this thing. It's like Esa giving up his
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: birthright for a bowl of beans. That is us. We
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: have sold our birthright for a bowl of beans. But
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: a day is coming when God will redeem the earth,
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: will redeem everything, a new Heaven and a new Earth
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: Revelation twenty one.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: It's a bookend. Gary.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: Chaos made their formless and void in Genesis one one, one, two,
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: and in Revelation twenty one to one, where there's a
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: new Heaven and a new Earth and the sea was
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: no more. The sea is the biblical representation of chaos,
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: primordial chaos, tiamat lo tan yam Leviathan. In fact, the
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: word in the Canaanite for the chaos dragon Yam, is
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: the Hebrew word for c That is not coincidental.
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: No, the sea was no more.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: It's mentioned separately in Revelation twenty one because at that
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: time we see the fulfillment of Isaiah twenty seven, verse one.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: In that day, the day of the Lord, the Lord
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan,
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: slay the dragon that is in the sea.
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: That's the ultimate fulfillment. And Donna Redemption.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Really brought an excellent, I think, sidelight into this. Talking
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: about the archaeology that's lately been discovered and the symbology
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: of the serpent and what's being illustrated. It all comes
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: together into a well a horrific picture.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Tom's ultimate goal for both the book and the documentary
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: What his heart Beat Was, And this was our last
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: project together. He wanted so bad to say science sees
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: a very old Earth. What if it's really old? Okay,
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: let's say that it is. Science is fine young Earth,
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: or see a very young Earth. Well, if the Earth
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: was restored six to ten thousand years ago, fine, then
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: the layers that they are studying are also very true.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: What if everybody, scientists, theologians of both the young and
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: old Earth categories. What if everybody is actually observing the
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: same thing, and I have a feeling that sooner rather
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: than later, a lot of that's going to converge. So
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of times people would say, well, why would
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: you even talk about void Earth? Why would you even
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: talk about what happened in the first two verses of Genesis?
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Why aren't you preaching Jesus. Let me tell you something.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Jesus gets important fast when we understand that the redemptive
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: act of God happened that early, and that the Bible
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: can be trusted for its alternate truth. That is what
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Tom wanted to do. All voices merge in this moment
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: where we're all observing the same thing. We need to
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: stop arguing, get harmonious and understand that Jesus is absolutely
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: at the center of it all. This is a lot
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: more evangelistic than we might think.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Amen. Wow, Derek, Sharon, they are great dish there.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: That's okay. I'm sorry, it's okay now. I would never
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: interrupt you, but I'm.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Glad you did. Sharon is your wife, yes, and she
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: is watching us right now, and I'm glad she is.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: It's been a great discussion and we must do this
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: again sometimes