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What I've Learnt - Robert Kenn · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, life is like the ocean.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: It can be calm or still and rough or rigid, but in the end, it is always beautiful.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's a quote by Jerry Lopez, which is also featured in the book that Robert Ken has just written, which we're very thrilled to include.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's Wisdom from the Ocean, and it really is.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: It has some incredible wise words and lessons learned, which is very thematic for this podcast.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, Robert, I'd like to welcome you to the What I've Learned podcast to discuss your book and your mission to learn from the ocean.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Dave, and thank you so much for having me on your show.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Absolute pleasure.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you talk about how we've all been exhausted from life, and I think that's a very strong theme in many people's life journeys, and particularly with the sort of the advent of social media and the influx of constant pressure, which seems to be ever-present.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us what where this mission to explore the surfer world and the ocean as a as a sort of a realm of lessons learned that we can apply to our lives.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Where did this all start for you?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: It all started at a function.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was chatting with a friend.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: We're both in our 50s and we were lamenting of where we were in life and where we thought we'd be.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then a couple of weeks later, I was talking to a surfer down at Malachi Beach about this whole aspect.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: And he talked to me about something that he'd learnt from the surf out in the ocean that he'd then taken into his day-to-day life and how that had actually made a difference for just daily living on the land, not out in the ocean.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I just thought that's just a great analogy.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I I chatted to him and I decided, actually, I'm sure there's lots of other surfers with similar viewpoints that they've come across.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I I ended up just talking to surfers up and down the northern and southern beaches of Sydney, and and the wisdom that they all had really was quite remarkable.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and for me it was around finding, you know, you know, my my friend and I've been talking about, you know, in our 50s, we go, don't you wish there had been a book when we're in our 20s?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, 20s and 30s that had said all this stuff, but you know, we spent 20, 30, 40 years learning, if only we'd known earlier.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's why I thought, well, people were now in their 20s and 30s, you know, they their struggles are so different to what mine were.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't have social media, we didn't have phones, you know, there were photos, everything, but that they're struggling with so many different things.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I talked to you know, different surfers, you know, to find stories which are relatable and realistic to today's current challenges.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, um do you recall what the nugget was that that they that triggered this that that your friend mentioned to you?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember what it was that they had learned, what the lesson was initially, or or what inspired them?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was even with my friend.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: We were talking about how just you know there's so many things going wrong in our life and it's all overwhelming.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I was chatting to surface about that, and and it was he who just said, actually, I'd had that in my life when it just felt like I'd been hit by wave after wave after wave.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: One or two ways you you can cope with.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: But when you've just been hit constantly, you know, one or two things going wrong in your life, and and he talked me through where he'd been at, where he was just so overwhelmed with so many things going wrong, and then what sparked him to look at that differently, and then he took that into his daily life to go, okay, I have got all of these things.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: What's one thing I could do which starts to eat away at them?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and you know, for me, that was the nugget of going, you know, that yeah, as you say, a nugget that was truly gold about what he was saying.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going, okay, what you know, I'm sure other people have similar stories, and the more I spoke to in different servers, that their different viewpoints was was way better than anything that you know, if I tried to write a book on my own, I could never come up with it.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really clever, but also there's there's so much of the sort of the analogy can be expanded.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, you talk about exhausted by one of life's waves, or maybe it's turned into a rip.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: We struggle to sleep afloat, crippled by the fear of the unknown, hesitant to dive in.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I love all the the parallels between living life and what sort of what the ocean presents.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so many nuances that, you know, just even in the the terminology that that are reflect that's reflected, which have that sort of oceanic theme, you know, or that water theme.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh absolutely.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I mean, for me, as you say, one of the ones was about about you know surviving life rips.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and you the the the turf had talked to me about how you know every rip is a perfect analogy for there's circumstances outside of your control um that you can't change what's happening to you.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um but the only thing you can change is how are you going to respond to that?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, and are you just gonna react to it uh and and get caught up in it?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and his his analogy to me was saying, you know, it is don't drown battling things you can't change.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you may need to change direction.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this like with Rick, you either swim across it, or you may even just go, I've got no idea, I'll just go with the flow, but don't die battling and exhausting yourself with my life.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: This shouldn't be happening in my life.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, well, with situations here, how how do I now look at it in a different fashion?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and it it is that yeah, a lot of you know, for each of them, it was also just you know, following the flow of of life and situations, um, and not just say not giving into stuff, uh, not saying, Oh, well, there's no point, uh, but also not not beating yourself up all the time about, oh, this is all my fault, um, because that's not going to help you find your way through.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's if you take the absolute analogy of a rip, what they say is don't fight it, right?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Don't is that correct?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they basically say don't because you will exhaust yourself and you'll drown.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's obviously just an exam what you were just outlining, and and clearly in life that's quite challenging to do as it is in a rip, because your natural what you know, if we've ever been in a rip, which I have and I'm sure you have, where you just think, well, your natural response is to fight it and to get back to shore.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, you're meant to go out with it, and and then once it sort of subsides, you then can get back, which is just goes against everything that your nature tells you, doesn't it?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's could be it's completely counterintuitive.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: So as you say, yeah, and it's the and and and with the rip, you know, the best thing was the other with the Al I say became angry, and his first things he said to him was, Don't panic, stay calm, you're okay, mate.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and it was enough to just take him out of that whole panic.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and and and then he's that situation.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you know you, you know, I've I've had situations where out of the blue things have suddenly happened.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and you know, as you say, one's instant reaction almost is to fight against it, you know, of no, if it shouldn't be this way, uh, and I'm gonna battle to make sure it's not, rather than going, okay, don't panic, pause for a moment, uh, just recalibrate and you know, do I just go over flow and see where I pop out, or do I try to swim across this situation or go around the situation?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as you say, it's taking that moment to not panic, pause and go, okay, yeah, my instant feeling is to against this, but that it's probably not gonna help.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so for you, were there specific um sort of incidents?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, by the age of sort of in uh in in middle age, most people have been through some pretty major things, whether it's you know, divorce or or financial stress, or I mean, it's it's unlikely that most people have not had something to navigate by middle.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: So really, was there something specific, or were there a number of things, you know, that you experienced personally that sent you on this sort of seeking of um survival skills, really, is what you've been looking for.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's probably two that come to mind.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I mean, the first one was literally I was in a relationship where everything seemed to be going fine, and then suddenly on a Saturday morning, my partner turned to me and just said, Look, Rob, I I I don't really don't know quite how to say this, but I don't think I want to spend my life with you.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and it was a bolt out of the blue.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: I I literally was like a bunny of my headlights.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I had no idea where this came from.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and also it was it it wasn't triggered by any particular thing.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but she just had a gut feel that you know for us to be together for the future wasn't right.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it wasn't something either of us had done wrong or anything that happened, but it it was that, you know, for me, it was you know the instant reaction is to battle against it, to go, well, well, why not?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, it must be me.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure it's something I can do better.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, what is it?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but eventually it was coming to a realization of I I've always had this belief that if you if you have a strong gut feel, you should follow it.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now, unfortunately, this wasn't my gut feel, uh, this was hers.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but you know, if if I stand with my philosophy, I should go, well, if she's got a strong gut feel, she should follow it.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it does impact me, but you know, clearly, you know, this isn't gonna work.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: I I can't battle against her decision.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and but what it led to for me for for that instance was um the aspect of at the same time, and another couple I knew were were breaking up, and I was chatting with with Alexis, and she said that she she was seeing a counselor who was making a massive difference for her.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'll be honest, I always thought counseling was something which, you know, other people uh it wasn't something it'd ever been for me.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I thought, well, you know, yeah, yeah, what have I got to lose?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I I went along and literally I just I met this brilliant counsellor just once a week for four weeks.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it wasn't a lifetime of counselling, and it wasn't covering, you know, you know, my birth and you know, it all multiple stuff.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: But in about four weeks, I'd learned a different way of looking at myself and a different way of looking at the situation.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and I suddenly I realized actually seeing a counselor is a bit like, you know, I'm pretty good with my car and mechanical stuff.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Except something major goes.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: I go, I take it to the mechanic because he knows what he's doing, he's got the tools, you'll get it done very quickly, and it's all and seeing her was she had all the tools of of things and way language I never had heard of, or ways of looking at things.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and she really was somebody who said, Well, you know, here's a way of looking at things, and it's tools I could then take away and use myself.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and it you know, it made a massive difference.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, yeah, still took a while to get used to it, but it changed my whole viewpoint of stuff.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: And and for me, that was you know a key turning aspect of going, yeah, don't you know when when Ms.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Surfer then talked about the rip and don't battle your circumstances, I thought, actually, yeah, that was right.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was I was trying to battle it and I found a way.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, if only I'd known to look at it that way then.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: But that's really interesting too, because I think you touched on something that's important, which is often it's men that that sort of are reticent to seek help, as we know from the stats, but also just generally culturally, it's becoming more much more acceptable now.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone talks about it.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, for a long time, men have never had those access to those tools or be considered um in any way uh sort of it's something that the bloke world doesn't necessarily navigate.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: What I like about this surfer sort of analogy or this this notion is I think a lot of the men, a lot of men would relate to that as well as women, but the surfer mentality of the ocean and the the sort of the physicality I think is really powerful of navigating quickly and going and seeking help or using the toolbox.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because I always say to my children, you know, just put in your backpack, you've always got it.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I mean, I come from a very a family where my father was a psychiatrist.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: We grew up with everyone has therapy.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's just what you do, right?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has most people don't, right?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And most so the fact that that you did that, but then beyond that, you've gone on to seek an understanding through this series of interviews and through the surfer world.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: That may that doorway may have also not opened had you not looked at the counseling option as well.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's sort of exactly, exactly.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and I mean, there's one of the you know one of the other chapters touches on a a surfer who was similarly in trouble in the ocean.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and and he reflected on a uh a pro surfer he knew who got caught in a bad situation and just put his hand up because in surf, you put your hand up if you need help, if you need someone to come out and help you, yeah, another surfer will come or a lifesaver.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and he reflected on the fact that this guy who was a pro-surfer and everyone looked up to was have the strength of mind and and courage to go, yeah, yeah, I I'm putting my hand up and asking for help.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and it's that aspect of you know, men, as you say, don't talk about these things, they don't talk about stuff.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: You as you said, you you grew up in a family where these things were talked about.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up in a family where you know, we we we talked about what do you think about something?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: We never talked about feelings.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Never talked about feelings at all.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: It it wasn't until I got into my twenties and I was in you know a relationship, and and I suddenly came to understand, you know, you know, my partner was saying to me, so what do you feel about this?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, I I don't know what you mean.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I actually found it was a case of not only was I not really so connected to my emotions, I didn't have any language for it.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have any words or you know, words of language to describe a feeling because we'd always just spoke about what do you think about this?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yes, surely good.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Carry on, you know, stiff up a lip.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: It was a whole English background of you know, carry on, don't don't worry, but you know, you know, your life's falling to pieces, you know, just keep going.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, no need to talk about it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you you're right, it it there is this whole aspect of a of a very male culture around the world, and particularly in Australia, you know, but for guys just you know they don't talk about stuff, they just get on and they they do stuff, um, which you know can be so detrimental.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that realization for me uh that yes, talking to you know your friends, yeah, you know, someone who knows how to talk through this stuff, you know, and it and so and also an aspect for me about talking to my counselor was it wasn't talking to a friend, it was talking to someone I could be open and honest with because it would never get back to anybody else.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was a professional, professional relationship.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what's really also interesting is that I think the irony of you as an English sort of Englishman who's been raised with some sort of with, as you outline, a different perspective on feelings, goes and interviews surfers on the New South Wales coast in Australia, who are all about, you know, that sort of that that whole thing about how they survive and thrive in the ocean.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's something really beautiful about that circle and how that's where you found some solace and understanding and shared in the book.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think the other thing you touched on, which I find really interesting, we talk you talk about mastery and fear.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, never excuses saying you're learning to master something first, own your fears and mistakes and enjoy the art of trying, failing, and trying again, which is actually how you learn to surf, yeah?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because you can't gotta be this sort of fear to get in the water, and then you've actually got to fall over like a gazillion times.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's you know, uh and and the thing I found, yeah, for surfers, you know, they understand the aspect of the idea where they'll get better at something is by constantly falling off away, falling off the board, trying and trying and trying and trying, and not worrying about how they look in front of everybody else.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yet in day-to-day life, it it's so easy to get caught up in oh, I'm I'm in the corporate world, I should be careful about what I do.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I can't be seen to make a mistake.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, in in in lots of people's lives, they are afraid of looking silly and stupid in front of others.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and therefore, yeah, I mean, I I know myself I fall into the terrible aspect of going, I I need to absolutely be master this before I view it out in public.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then it was that whole fear of making a mistake, which which held me back and you know, it sort of made me less spontaneous.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't until I got into my 20s and 30s and started to feel a bit more confident about okay, well, actually, you know, it turns out, you know, I thought everybody else was watching me and waiting for me to no one's watching me and caring, they're worried about themselves.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um to work that out.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's sort of interesting because you know, you you know, when you speak to young people, they're very much they're very worried about how they are perceived.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Although some of I find ironically, social media's made them a little bit less like, I don't really care, I'm doing me.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of them are quite open about things.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes my kids will say, Why wouldn't why wouldn't you just discuss that?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, I don't know, we come from an age, particularly in our generation, where, you know, that wasn't, and it's not just a male thing, but there's a general sort of, you know, well, you just manage, you know, well, whereas then uh like everyone puts it up on socials, which I'm on a lot now because of what I do.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, I sort of love this.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the Wild West, but it's sort of great.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like people are raw, and I think there is, while there are some damaging elements, there are also the positive is that there is an honesty to failure.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's an honesty to so what?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: It fell over.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, and and and there's an authenticity.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's spontaneous, but put things up, there's an authenticity about who they truly are.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they they they they they've learned this aspect of well, you can't put things up because fake and isn't your real life because actually, you know, people see through that.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: So they are learning to be all authentic and and and and even just putting stuff up, they're learning to be creative.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and to my viewpoint, that's great because there's all those neurons in my mind, which uh, you know, I I got a creative outlet, you know, which isn't I don't need to be an artist or have a career in the creativity, but I know it's gonna help, you know, with just just my general viewpoint on what.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's right.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I love the I love this comment.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, waves change, and so do people.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be afraid of being dumped and remember it's never too late to find love.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's also very relevant too, because it's sort of like it's almost like you have to we know as young people, you generally have a few boyfriends or a few girlfriends or whatever, and you go on the journey, and so what, you break up and then you move on.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you're in midlife, it it's sort of expected that that that can't happen.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and I know lots of people who've repartned and found love once they accept whatever lessons they needed to learn from the previous experience and helps them to so I don't know if that happened for you, but it's it's certainly an interesting notion that people change just like waves, like the ocean.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the same every day.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and and and I I agree for me, it's a case of going, yeah, I've been in relationships where at the beginning everything was fine, but then you know, over a couple of years, you find actually both of you are slightly changing in directions of what you want to do, or or you know, you're still finding out even in your 20s and your 30s, and actually even later, you're still finding out who the who on earth are, who who am I?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and therefore people change, and and that there's you know, there's nothing wrong with that.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's a case of just saying, Yeah, actually, we we we have a different viewpoint of life and want to go in a different direction because we can still stay great friends.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I I've stayed great friends with most of my previous partners, um, because we enjoyed each other's company anyway.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: But we both go, you know what, Leo, long-term, you know, you know, we shouldn't be living together.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: We you know, we we will have better lives in a different direction, but we can still stay friends.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and it was you know, it was one of the servers here he was talking about.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that you know, when you're out there, you have to commit to a certain wave.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: You can't just wave, wait for a perfect wave, you could be there for weeks uh and try it and drown.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but if you see a wave and you think, actually, this could be really for one, you commit to it.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: You don't just hop on for a second, you you commit to this wave, and as you go along, you may find this wave dumps you because it decides, you know, it's had enough.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, or you may decide after a while, yeah, I'm going to come up with this one.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you might find that actually, uh no, this is the one that's going to take me all the way to the shore and this is this is you know great, you know, and doesn't matter if, as you say, if your 20s, your thirties, or your your sixties and seventies.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's still accepting the fact, but we're still all learning.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, life, you know, it's the other thing I learned from some of the surfers is they say it doesn't matter how many years I've been out surf, it's still learning.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and again, I I've come to my understanding, yeah, in life, you know, I'm now in my 60s and I'm still learning stuff and and I'm really enjoying it.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And evolving.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that makes sense.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I love this other little comment.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone is equal with a wetsuit on.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: In in the surf, it's completely classless.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's mentorship, friendship, and guidance.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Your wealth or lack thereof is irrelevant.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's your conduct that says it all.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really interesting too.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: What did you learn about that aspect from the surfing?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, from Berserf, I love that.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and it was the you know, everyone's absolutely equal.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter if you're a millionaire or if if you're if you've just come from center link this morning, um, it's your behavior and how you are is what says most about you.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and in the surf, nobody cares.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and and I also found that aspect of you know, that mentorship and that guidance is they they all the surfers I spoke to, I I gave this real sense of there's a huge generosity of assistance and mentorship and make you know whether it's female or male or whatever, of of They they just all have a very generous spirit.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they don't really care about your background.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and it's that equality which I just you know I I love that aspect of it.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's one of the reasons I moved to Austral to Australia.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, from the UK.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: I when I first came here in my my mid-twenties, I just thought, you know, wow, this is almost compared to Britain, this is a classless society.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's a money society.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, you know, it's not completely classless, but but compared to other countries around the world where things have been in ingrained for thousands of years into that culture, um, it is much more classless here.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and it's that generosity of spirit, that generosity of you want to set up a business doing that, fantastic.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Give it a go.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good audio.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, wish you the best.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, whereas in in England, I mean, oh well, I'm I'm sorry, your family hasn't done that for 18 generations.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Don't be so silly.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's so different.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh it's an interesting, I mean, I think that's true.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, you know, there are elements, I mean, it's a once again, we're a changing society, but I I love the the notion that in the surf everyone's equal.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and there's another little lesson I saw invest in life like a surfer.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: You get the best ways by turning up every day.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, you'll get a better return on life if you work hard daily versus just trying your luck, chasing a whim, and showing up when you want something.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I love that notion that consistency can sometimes reap the rewards you need, even if you can't.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit like the gym or whatever you do, you can't be bothered, but you go, well, I've just got to keep going.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very much surfing philosophy.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something else that's yeah, it is one of the surfaces, you know, surfers, surfers don't just go, you know, on this day in you know, on the 8th of November, I will turn up and have my best surf, yeah, and I'll do it once a year.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, then they don't do that, they go consistently every day.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes the weights are good, sometimes the weights are bad, but uh you know, on the unexpected days, but just have the fantastic ones.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: So there's that consistency where you're then there for opportunities to arise, for situations to occur.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's so it it can be in the workplace or it can be with the people, it can be relationships.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: If if you're consistently you know doing things and making the effort, you never know when serendipity will suddenly appear, uh, and an opportunity arises, which would not have happened if you hadn't consistently been turning up, you know, to you know, the choir you've joined, or consistently turning up to work, uh, or you know, it it's you know, all different aspects of life um that that keeping going when sometimes you really can't be bothered, but it's going, well, you know, who knows when it's gonna lead?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so but just finally, what what would be a highlight um experience for you in doing this book?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Was there a particular surfer that stood out to you or somebody that sort of I mean, obviously you met a lot of surfers, but what was the highlight for you?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Was there an anecdote that or a person that really just left you with some major gems of wisdom?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: Was the the the one we we talked about mastery and how it it wasn't until their forties when they realized that actually their their drive to be a a master in something before they did it publicly and before or before they pursued it through work.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: It did that one really struck a chord for me because it it it it made me really reflect on the times where I I will easily fall into that of, oh actually, no, I need to learn a little bit more before I do that.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I need to do a bit more research before I do that, right?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: I need to practice, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's um it was a really helpful one for me to go.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, yeah, that's that is some that's one I really need to keep an eye on and keep in check and and constantly go, no, I need to be a bit more, you know, I do need to be more spontaneous.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: I need to go with the flow and go, yeah, I yeah, I'll I'll give this a go now.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm happy to make a mistake and and and and you know fail publicly, doesn't matter.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, I'd I'd say that you know that was the standout surf and and and the overall, overall standout, I think for me was uh when I started the book, I spoke to another author and said, you know, recommendations and the best advice they gave me was don't say the book as your destination.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that's for key bean.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy the journey along the way.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and he was spot on because yes, this took an awful lot longer than expected.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but in doing the book, and and it's almost like the consistency of turning up, I I would meet I met people who I otherwise would never have met and got to know if I hadn't been writing the book.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and some of those friendships, which you know, some of them weren't even surfers, they were related to other things.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I if I hadn't been doing the book, I wouldn't have met them.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the journey along the way has been fantastic.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've learned so much about myself and other things to consider.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so to me, that aspect is uh as well as surfers, it's been the other people along the way have just been you know great for me.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, to use the analogy, sometimes you've just got to dive in.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and to be honest, I mean, I started this podcast five years ago now, and I just dove in.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I didn't I wasn't I didn't know what I was doing, and it wasn't like there were lots of podcasts at that time.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was it was very new, and I really just literally jumped in and it's become now something I've met so many people, I've learned so much.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm on my this is 360 interviews.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is like an it's a similar thing where if I'd spent too much time harbouring, am I gonna be good at this?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Am I gonna do this?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do I know what I'm doing?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: All of that, which does play on your head, but then actually I've evolved, I've learned, I've grown.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: There are resources, and in a way, I just had to dive in.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been so rewarding and continues to be.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not a dissimilar experience.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that our listeners, um, as part of um, we have a beautiful, loyal listenership, and I've met so many people along the way, and I'm sure they're going to enjoy this wonderful interview and uh lessons learned out in the ocean.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, where do they get the book if they would like it?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is it available online or um uh yes, uh on on online it's on www bespokexp.com.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: And hopefully later be on Amazon, but I'm just trying to Amazon System and which is a whole new learning curve for ocean.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, wisdom from the ocean.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Robert Ken, for joining us.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh really enjoyed the chat, and I wish you luck and continue the the journey.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Deborah, thank you so much, and um, thank you so much for having me on your show and and carry on with yours.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've been listening to some of yours just early this week and I love them.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: So absolutely brilliant.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Take care.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share lessons learned, rivers crossed, mountains climbed.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: We love our shared humanity, and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time at the Waterflip Podcast.