Latest / The Mental Health Evolution / Ep 39: Brain Science for Better Leadership with Dr. Lisa Riegel

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Ep 39: Brain Science for Better Leadership with Dr. Lisa Riegel · The Mental Health Evolution

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) This podcast is part of the Frederick podcast
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network.
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Learn more at listenfrederick.com.
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Welcome to Mental Health Evolution, a podcast about
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what's changing in mental health and why it
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matters.
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I'm your host, Rachel Harrison, inviting you into
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honest conversations with people from all perspectives in
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the field, clinicians, tech founders, investors, insurance companies,
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and all the folks in between.
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Let's explore what's working, what's not, and what's
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next.
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Welcome back, everyone, to the Mental Health Evolution
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podcast, where we are talking about how the
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landscape is quickly evolving in the mental health
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industry.
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And today we are joined by Dr. Lisa
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Riegel, a leadership strategist, researcher, and author who
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has spent more than two decades helping schools,
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organizations, and leaders understand one powerful idea, that
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real, lasting change starts in the brain.
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Lisa is the creator of Neural Well Framework
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and the 8C Commitment Framework, two approaches that
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translate brain science into practical, actionable strategies for
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building cultures where people feel engaged, supported, and
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capable of growth.
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She has worked with school districts, healthcare organizations,
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and leadership teams across the country, and she
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is the author of several books, including her
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most recent Aspirations to Operations, A Leader's Guide
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to Making Transformative Change Stick.
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Her work is grounded in a simple but
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important insight, most change efforts fail not because
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people do not care, but because the systems
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and environments around them are not designed with
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the brain in mind.
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And that is exactly what we're going to
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dig in and explore a little more today.
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As always, before we talk to our guests,
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we're going to bring up some relevant articles
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related to our guest topic today.
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These may be helpful for listeners who want
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to learn more about this topic and dive
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deeper.
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All articles will be linked in the show
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notes, so you can reference them later if
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you'd like to as well.
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The first article that I'm referencing is called
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Stanford Researchers Investigate How the Brain Changes with
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Different Learning Experiences, this from the Stanford Graduate
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School of Education.
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And researchers at Stanford's Graduate School of Education
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partnered with a local school to study how
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educational experiences actually change the brain's neural circuitry
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in real time.
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Working with students from kindergarten through eighth grade,
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they found that specific school experiences shape and
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tune the brain circuits that are foundational to
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reading, math, and attention.
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The research points toward a new model of
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educational neuroscience, one that moves beyond labeling students
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by performance level and toward understanding why they
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struggle or succeed at a biological level.
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The next article is called Seven Workplace Challenges
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for 2025.
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And this is Gallup's research finding that U
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.S. employee engagement hit an 11-year low
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in 2024, with overall employee satisfaction also returning
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to an all-time low record.
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The report identifies a widening gap between how
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managers think they are leading their teams and
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how employees actually experience that leadership, with 50
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% of managers saying they give weekly feedback
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while only 20% of employees agree.
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The findings make a clear case that change
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in engagement cannot be driven by strategy alone,
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which is precisely the problem that Lisa has
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built her career around solving.
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And lastly, an article, or actually a book,
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I should say, by Dr. Lisa Riegel, Aspirations
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to Operations, A Leader's Guide to Making Transformative
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Change Stick.
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And that brings us here to our guest,
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and she introduces the 8C commitment framework in
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an operational and strategic approach she has refined
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over nearly two decades of working with organizations.
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The book is grounded in brain science and
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built around a central argument.
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Leadership training too often inspires people without giving
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them the tools to actually follow through.
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And again, real change requires aligning the brain,
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the people, and systems all at once.
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That does not sound like a small task,
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Lisa.
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I'm ready to dive into this.
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So she's here to walk us through this
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a little bit in practice.
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So welcome, Lisa.
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Thank you.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Of course.
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So I would love to hear, as we
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get started, just a little bit about you.
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How did you get interested in this specific
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type of work?
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Where did this kind of neuroscience and being
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able to integrate that with leadership and how
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to best support people in the workplace and
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in the school systems and organizations kind of
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come to be for you?
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So I have a very crooked career path.
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I graduated, my first degree was in English
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literature.
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And so I was studying the psyche of
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characters, right?
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But when I graduated, I ended up in
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sales because there wasn't really a clear pathway
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out of English literature.
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So I kind of took what I could
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get.
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And so I worked in several different tech
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sale companies.
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So I worked for the company that it
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was the technology prior to OnStar when the
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startup had it.
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And then I worked with a company that
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was sold automatic greasing systems for semis and
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off-road construction equipment.
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And then I worked for a human resources
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company.
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So I worked at these different companies.
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And so I had lots of different examples
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of leadership.
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I was successful by all the metrics that
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you're supposed to use.
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I had money, I had a car, I
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had a house.
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I did all the things you're supposed to
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do.
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And I was miserable.
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And I was, why am I not happy?
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And I started thinking, you know, happiness, I
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always grew up in sort of the belief
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system of happiness and success were intertwined, and
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they're not.
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And so that was my first initial kind
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of foray into what's wrong with me because
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I'm not happy.
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And then looking at different leaders that supported
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me different ways.
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I basically quit everything.
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I had my quarter life crisis.
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I quit everything, went to Florida, walked around
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for a couple weeks with a backpack and
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just did a total reset and said, I
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got to start over again.
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I was engaged, said, I don't want to
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do that either.
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So called that off, quit my job.
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And I came back and I said, I
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want to work with kids.
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I want to bring people to their potential.
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I want to help people be happy.
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So I went back and got a degree
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in education and I taught for nine years.
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And then I moved into leadership, had the
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opportunity to do my doctorate on leadership out
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of Ohio State.
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And I was really interested in the human
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side.
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I think that a lot of leadership programs,
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as I went through leadership programs in my
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master's degree and doctoral degree, and then when
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I was teaching those programs, were so focused
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on the structure and the systems.
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And we are not actually focused on the
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people.
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So I always talk about policy shape change,
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but people make change.
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And so how do we help people feel
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fulfilled and happy and supported in their jobs?
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Because when they feel a sense of belonging
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and they feel appreciated and they feel a
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sense of capacity or efficacy, they're happier at
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work and they do better.
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You referenced that Gallup article.
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I read recently two thirds of the American
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workforce is burned out and it's impacting their
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mental health.
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And so disengagement in the workplace is a
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real problem.
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And I think leaders are not prepared with
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the knowledge and the tools that they need
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in order to engage that human system.
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And so that's become my life's work, is
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to really help people be better leaders so
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that at the end of the day, the
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workplace is more joyful and fulfilling and more
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effective.
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I really like that.
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You know, I feel like it's interesting as
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the mental health field has gone through a
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lot of changes in general.
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I think that this industry also experiences high
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levels of burnout and it is a very
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people focused profession and industry.
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Right.
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So that's interesting as well.
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But I think that some of these principles
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might still be really interesting to think about
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how it integrates with some of these systems.
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So I'm excited to dive into that.
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And I love sort of your personal interest
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and journey and seeing some of the through
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line of all of that.
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So let's start with this idea that real
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change begins in the brain.
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That's what you talk about.
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For us as mental health industry people, that's
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not a strange concept at all.
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You don't have to you don't have to
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argue with us or explain how that works.
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But tell me more about what you're talking
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about specifically in the brain and how you
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kind of break that down.
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Yeah, so our behavior, whether it's academic behavior
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or social behavior or workplace behavior is the
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intersection of our biology and our context.
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And I love that you brought up that
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Stanford study because it's talking about how the
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context of learning is actually shaping the biology
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of the brain.
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And so when we understand that biology and
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context are really fueling our behavior and that
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a lot of the decision making we're making
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is in the unconscious part of our brain,
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it is our biology keeping us safe.
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It's our biology keeping us alive.
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It's not actually decision making in the part
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of our brain that is conscious.
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So if we understand that when we see
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people behaving a certain way, we look at
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the problem differently and we start to say,
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OK, there's something in their brain that is
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saying this is dangerous or it's not psychologically
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safe or whatever it is, that it may
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have nothing to do with what's going on
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in this moment.
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But it's how the brain is associating this
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moment with a pattern of moments from their
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past.
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And so as a leader or a teacher
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or a parent or a friend or spouse
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or anybody, when you see somebody in a
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state of stress, I think oftentimes we immediately
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jump into this is about me and it's
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not about you.
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It's about that person's brain and how it
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has associated the experience in the moment with
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the experience in the past.
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And quite frankly, the way our brain forms
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perceptions is, you know, we can all be
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at the same exact event and have a
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wildly different experience.
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And so there is such a reality, right?
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My reality is my perception of reality.
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And there's a lot of biology that's involved
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in taking real sensory data and perceiving it.
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So that biology piece is critical.
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And then at the end of the day,
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as leaders, we have ultimate control over creating
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and shaping a context that is safe, supportive
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and proactive.
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I call it a neuro well context.
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So the work that I do with leaders
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is really helping them to understand themselves better
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so that they are staying, you know, the
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conscious part of their brain, that executive function
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is firing and they're making more conscious decisions.
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And then also how do they apply that
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brain science to the context so that they're
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creating this neuro well culture for their employees?
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Yeah.
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So what have you seen as you've started
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to implement this in different organizations?
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What are some of the common reasons that
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people struggle?
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What are some of the things that help
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fix the mindset or the organization or the
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culture?
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The first thing I would say, and this
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is the first C in that eight C
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framework is culture.
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And what I see a lot is that
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companies spend a lot of time and money
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and resources on words, but a word salad
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does not make a culture, right?
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Culture is built off the actions, off repeated
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routines and the way we do things here.
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And I see a disconnect a lot of
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times between the culture as it's defined and
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the culture in how it's enacted.
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And so working with the leaders to say,
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how do we actually live these values?
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What does it look like?
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And one of the questions I always ask
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leaders when I start working with them is,
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what do you want to see?
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What is your desired state?
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And then the next question I say is,
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well, what do you see or what do
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you hear when that desired state is happening?
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And you would be amazed how few can
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actually answer that question.
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And that's where like aspirations to operations comes
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in.
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Ah, you have operational training, you have aspirational
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leadership, but you don't have operational leadership of
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how to take that dream and turn it
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into a reality.
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And then you think about even a lot
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of leaders that have gone through like MBA
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programs, or, you know, those programs are about
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business administration.
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They're about the structures.
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They're about, you know, KPIs.
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They're about profits.
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They're about the numbers.
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They don't have a good string of classes
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about the people, the human system.
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So you end up with a lot of
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leaders that have a lot of technical competencies,
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but they don't have those interpersonal ones.
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And I would argue that as AI becomes
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more and more integrated into our systems, anything
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that's algorithmic, AI can do faster and more
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efficiently than we can.
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And so when you start to look at
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even the leadership training that we currently have,
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it's teaching you those algorithmic processes, right?
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You want bigger profits.
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You want a bigger customer base.
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Here's the steps you take to get there.
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That knowledge and that skill is going to
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become less important in the next 10 years
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because we're going to have AI do it
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for us.
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So that human system is going to become
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ultimately so much more important for effective leadership.
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Yeah, that is, that's a lot of good
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thought process there, I think.
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What are some of the gaps that you
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see with leaders and the human interaction?
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You mentioned kind of training around systems and
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processes, but as you start to teach your
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framework, are there any specific barriers or challenges
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or mindsets that you find that are difficult
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or hard for people to embrace a different
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way of doing things, I guess, is what
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I'm asking.
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Yeah, I think it really starts with some
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self-discovery.
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So if you have leaders who are not
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willing to be self-aware of their own
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brain and how it operates and how it
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processes, because, you know, we have an identity.
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If you're a leader in a company, you
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have a certain set of beliefs about what
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a good leader is.
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And I always laugh because when I was
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teaching leadership courses, one of the assignments that
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we had to give the students was to
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write their leadership platform.
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And I always thought that was a really
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dumb assignment because your leadership platform should be
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like one sentence, I lead in a way
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so that others will follow, right?
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So your leadership platform, if you're a good
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leader, then that means you know your people
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and you can support them and you can
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communicate with them and you can rally them
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so that they will follow.
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It doesn't really matter what you believe.
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It matters what your people need.
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So I think that's a big barrier is
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if a leader has that mindset of they
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should just do what they're told or they're
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just lazy or if they're not willing to
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look at their own brain and their own
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self-awareness of the things that they have
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as their biases, it's really hard to help
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them then grow self-awareness on their teams.
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So a lot of times my work starts
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with one-on-one, let's get to know
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you as a leader, you know, where are
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your strengths, where are your weaknesses?
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And I ask certain questions and I can
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tell pretty quickly which of the C's they're
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missing.
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So there's eight C's.
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The first one's culture.
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The next three are really planning C's.
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So it's clarity.
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It's that what do you see, what do
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you hear?
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It's coherence of does this fit with your
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values?
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Does it fit with the other things you're
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doing?
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Are you implementing a software system that's going
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to be in conflict with another one that
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you have?
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So now people are doomed to fail no
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matter what they do.
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And then there's a cadence piece.
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How quickly can your staff change?
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And then there's two engagement C's, which are
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collaboration and coaching.
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And there's two sustainability C's, which is communication
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and celebration, which oftentimes is one of the
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weakest C's for leaders.
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But I'll hear leaders say things like, well,
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my people just hate meetings.
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And I'm like, people don't hate meetings.
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They hate dumb meetings.
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They hate meetings for a purpose, right?
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So that to me tells me right there,
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we're going to work on how you structure
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your meetings.
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And one example of that is like I've
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sat in, you know, some companies do like
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the huddle meeting once a week.
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There's half the people on this meeting that
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have no reason to be there.
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And I was actually traveling with my and
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they had a company that did these huddles.
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And we were in a different time zone.
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So we were playing euchre, having dinner, and
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they would just put the huddle on in
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the background.
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And I was like, do you guys need
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to log into this?
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And they're like, no, it's the dumbest meeting
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ever.
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And they're like, we'll get on for like
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15 seconds, and that's all we need.
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And I was like, okay.
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So we stopped playing cards.
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They did the meeting.
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They came back.
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We played cards.
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We ignored the rest of the meeting.
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So yes, people hate those meetings.
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So some of it is really the nuts
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and bolts of structuring so that people feel
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autonomy and accountability and some empowerment.
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So that's kind of the sort of structures
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that I work with leaders on improving.
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Yeah, I like that idea.
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I'm curious, as I hear you talking about
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this, do you find any differences based on
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the size of organization?
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Yes.
15:42
Yeah.
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The bigger the organization, the more important it
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is to really define the, I always talk
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about it like a highway, like the senior
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leadership in any organization gets to decide where
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the highway is going.
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They pick the destination, they pick, you know,
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the route they're going to take to get
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there.
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But then they have to decide how wide
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or how narrow are we going to make
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the guardrails.
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And I think that oftentimes in bigger companies
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gets really, really fuzzy.
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And so figuring out like, where is our
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autonomy for decision making?
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And where are those guardrails?
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And then having your management leadership, you know,
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at the manager level to really understand that
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because I've been in so many meetings before
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where the manager's trying to explain to somebody,
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hey, here's the decision that was made.
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Here's what we need to do.
16:26
You know, just trying to clarify expectations with
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a directive.
16:29
And the meeting divulges into, you know, we
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shouldn't have been doing this.
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Why are we doing this?
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And trying to deconstruct basically the decision that's
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not theirs to make.
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And it creates a negativity in the culture.
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It creates disengagement.
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So having really clear boundaries of at each
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level, what's the autonomy at that level, but
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also what is the accountability at that level?
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And so when you're able to do that,
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then you have a system where if I'm
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doing within the bounds of what I have
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autonomy to do, and I know that I'm
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going to be celebrated for it, because accountability
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doesn't have to be a bad word.
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I mean, it can also be like, we
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can celebrate, look, we said we were going
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to do this and look at it, we
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did it, right?
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And so if I have those two things
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clear in my mind, then at the end
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of the day, I can get in my
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car and say, I did a good job
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today.
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But if everything's fuzzy, and I don't know
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if I'm stepping on somebody else's toes, or
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I get super creative, and then I get,
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you know, batted back down, then I get
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in my car and I don't feel good.
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And so to me that those structures of
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understanding with clarity, what are we trying to
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accomplish here, and then also understanding that balance
17:30
of autonomy and accountability can make a big
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difference in engaging the humans in the system.
17:35
Yeah, yeah, I think that's very true from
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what I have seen in organizations that I've
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been a part of.
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And having that clarity and having those clear
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boundaries, and even just as you're talking about,
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like, whose decision is it?
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And understanding like, like, where you say those
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guardrails and where are the freedoms and where
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aren't they?
17:54
And that's how the system is designed.
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But that clarity, I do find that a
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lot of people that are upset in a
18:02
job often can be lack of clarity in
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that way.
18:05
Right.
18:06
Well, and then they start to fill in
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with assumptions, you know, he doesn't like me,
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or they never appreciate me.
18:11
And the reality is, it's a clarity of
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intention or clarity of structure.
18:14
One thing I teach leaders is there's four
18:17
different types of talking.
18:18
And we need to be intentional about that,
18:20
because so much of the disengagement happens in
18:22
a poorly run, collaborative space, right?
18:25
So the example of like, a decision has
18:27
been made, and you just we just need
18:29
to understand what that means for us, that's
18:31
a directive.
18:32
And so if a leader starts with, hey,
18:33
I got some directives, these are decisions that
18:35
have been made on high here, you know,
18:37
the purpose of this conversation is to clarify
18:39
how this impacts us.
18:41
Then there's dialoguing.
18:43
Dialoguing seeks to understand, and dialoguing is like
18:46
a brainstorm, nothing's wrong, let's just figure out
18:49
all angles of the issue.
18:50
Let's think of intended and unintended consequences.
18:53
Let's just get it all out there in
18:54
a big, messy, you know, brainstorm.
18:56
What I see happen a lot is you've
18:58
got, you know, one person in the group,
18:59
maybe an extrovert, who's a loud mouth, or
19:01
somebody who has an informal power in the
19:03
group, says their opinion, everybody shuts down, and
19:06
then they're like, okay, well, I guess that's
19:07
what we're going to do.
19:08
And the other people in the room know
19:09
it isn't going to work.
19:10
But we don't actually seek to understand the
19:12
issue, because the leader isn't facilitating it as
19:15
a dialogue.
19:16
And it erodes trust in the group and
19:17
erodes interpersonal relationships within the group.
19:20
And then you have another type is a
19:21
data analysis.
19:23
And the expectation of that is to understand
19:25
your gaps to test your theory of change,
19:28
right?
19:28
And I think a lot of times data
19:29
is used as a weapon instead of a
19:31
tool.
19:32
And so if you have a data analysis
19:33
section, and if you've clearly identified what are
19:36
the adults in the system, what are we
19:37
doing, right?
19:38
Not if you're in a school, not the
19:40
kids, or if you're in a business, not
19:41
the customer or the whoever you're working with,
19:44
what are we doing?
19:45
What do we have control over doing?
19:47
That's your theory of change.
19:48
And so then the data serves to say,
19:50
did our theory of change work or not?
19:52
Versus you guys didn't produce well enough, right?
19:55
So it changes the way that we consume
19:58
that data.
19:59
And then the last is a And the
20:01
discussion is meant to decide.
20:03
So to make a decision is the purpose
20:04
of a discussion.
20:05
So once you have a dialogue and you
20:07
really understand things, you've looked at your data,
20:09
you've created your theory of change, now you
20:11
have a discussion to say, okay, let's clarify.
20:14
What are we going to do?
20:15
What does it look like?
20:16
What does it sound like?
20:17
How are we going to implement it?
20:18
And at that point, then you go through
20:20
a consensus process so that everybody there has
20:23
agreed that this is what they want to
20:25
do.
20:25
And that doesn't mean they love every single
20:27
thing about it.
20:27
It means I can live with this.
20:29
I'll do my part.
20:29
I won't sabotage.
20:30
And so even just putting some of those
20:32
collaborative expectations in place by defining how we
20:36
talk, you can create a space that's much
20:38
more psychologically safe for your employees.
20:41
And you're going to get better ideas out
20:42
of them.
20:43
You're going to get better productivity.
20:44
You're going to get more engagement because that
20:46
decision-making process has occurred correctly, where a
20:51
lot of times what I see is the
20:52
decision-making process, there's no understanding of where
20:54
the autonomy and accountability ends.
20:56
And so people have great ideas, but they're
20:58
not their ideas to have.
20:59
They're not at the level that's making that
21:01
level of decision.
21:02
So then they're honked off when that decision
21:04
doesn't reflect their input.
21:07
When the reality is their manager should have
21:09
never asked for that input.
21:10
They should have started with like, here's the
21:11
non-negotiables that were decided up high.
21:13
Here's why they decided them this way.
21:15
This is our work.
21:16
This is our playground to design.
21:19
Yeah.
21:20
Wow.
21:21
I just love that.
21:22
That makes a whole lot of sense.
21:24
And then do you see that that lack
21:25
of defining the type of discussion and how
21:29
things are communicated, a piece of burnout?
21:32
Or what would you say when people are
21:34
talking about work burnout and expectations, like in
21:37
that Gallup poll of leadership feedback and all
21:39
those things, where do you think all of
21:41
that starts?
21:42
So I think it, again, it plays into
21:45
the different types of C's.
21:47
So it can start with a culture where
21:48
I don't feel like I belong.
21:50
That's not an inclusive culture.
21:51
So I come to work every day.
21:53
And you know, our brain, like, it's like,
21:54
if you walk in a room and you're
21:55
like, oh, these are my people.
21:56
You open up and you're excited and you're
21:58
ready to participate.
21:59
Where if you walk in a room and
22:00
you're like, ooh, these are not my people.
22:02
You kind of shut down.
22:03
And from a biology standpoint, your body starts
22:05
to go into a little bit of a
22:06
stress mode, right?
22:07
So if you're going into work every day
22:08
in an environment where you don't feel that
22:10
sense of belonging and collective identity, then that's
22:13
your first problem.
22:15
The second problem is really those planning C's.
22:17
I don't know what you want from me.
22:19
I cannot make this change this fast.
22:21
It doesn't make any sense to me.
22:22
Or you've asked me to do something that
22:24
literally contradicts something else you're asking me.
22:26
So I'm failing either way.
22:27
So sometimes it's a performance clarity issue.
22:30
Sometimes it's a coaching and collaboration issue.
22:33
My voice isn't listened to.
22:35
I feel bullied by somebody else who's a
22:38
louder voice or has more informal power, or
22:40
the coaching that I'm receiving doesn't really support
22:43
me.
22:43
And I hear this all the time.
22:44
We just need more support.
22:46
What does that mean?
22:47
And oftentimes they can't actually define what that
22:50
means.
22:50
They just don't feel like their manager appreciates
22:53
them or supports them.
22:55
And that usually is a cry for either
22:57
we don't make decisions together, or my voice
22:59
isn't heard, or it's I don't even know
23:01
what you want from me, and it changes
23:02
every day.
23:03
And then the sustainability is the communication which
23:07
can erode any of these C's.
23:08
Or it's also the celebration.
23:10
And I think that's a big one.
23:12
My dissertation actually had a whole component on
23:14
celebration and leadership.
23:16
And leaders can have very high expectations and
23:18
forget to celebrate.
23:19
Or they do these big kind of, everybody,
23:21
we brought you in lunch because you guys
23:23
are awesome.
23:23
Well, that's not an authentic celebration.
23:25
That's lunch.
23:26
And people appreciate it.
23:27
But when you tie, when you create an
23:29
actual strategic celebration program that's tied to your
23:33
expectations, you actually build collective efficacy on your
23:36
staff.
23:36
And when your staff has collective efficacy, they
23:39
have trust, they have a sense of accomplishment,
23:42
and they work harder, they work more productively,
23:45
and you get more out of them, and
23:46
they have less burnout when they're working as
23:48
a team in an effective team.
23:50
So I think each of these C's plays
23:52
a role in that burnout.
23:54
And I think, again, it starts at that
23:56
leadership level of being a self-aware, self
23:59
-regulated, self-controlled leader.
24:01
And you can't be in control if you're
24:03
not self-aware and self-regulated.
24:05
So it really does start in the brain.
24:07
Those three things, though, Lisa, I think are
24:10
so true, but that's a big lift.
24:14
Right?
24:15
It is.
24:16
You know what, though?
24:17
It doesn't have to be.
24:18
So I work with leaders on simple things
24:22
they can do.
24:22
They don't have to go to weekly therapy
24:25
for two years to uncover who they are.
24:27
There's little things that they can do on
24:29
the surface that can help them understand their
24:31
brain better.
24:32
And then to understand why their brain functions
24:34
that way, they might want some therapy or
24:37
some real exploration into their past and their
24:40
patterns.
24:41
But my role, because I'm not a therapist,
24:43
I go in and really work with them
24:44
on, let's uncover the patterns.
24:45
And then you can decide whether you like
24:47
those patterns or not, or whether you need
24:49
to really process why they're there.
24:51
But understanding how the brain works, understanding how
24:54
our body feels, I think that people don't
24:56
have good mind-body connection, and they don't
24:59
know how they feel when they are angry,
25:03
or when they are feeling like they don't
25:05
belong, or when they're feeling joy.
25:07
So some of what I do is I
25:08
do exercises with people to develop their own
25:11
mental health self-care routine that is really
25:14
about, like, one of the things I tell
25:16
them is set your timer for a half
25:17
an hour when you're at work.
25:19
Every half hour when that timer goes off,
25:21
just take a pause, take a couple deep
25:23
breaths, maybe do a vagal nerve exercise, maybe
25:25
rub your neck a little bit, stretch, stand
25:27
up, look out the window, whatever, for, like,
25:29
90 seconds, and then sit back down and
25:32
get back to work.
25:33
And you do it every half hour.
25:34
If you set your alarm like that for
25:36
after a couple weeks, your body's going to
25:38
learn every half hour, I'm going to crave
25:41
a deep breath, or I'm going to crave.
25:43
And so, like, I've done this for years.
25:44
And at this point, about every half hour,
25:46
I notice myself just, like, rolling my wrists,
25:48
or I take a deep breath.
25:49
It's unconscious at this point, but it keeps
25:51
my baseline stress level down so that I
25:54
am regulated so that when something comes at
25:57
me that is going to be stressful, I'm
25:59
not already at a three or four, and
26:01
this is going to shoot me into the
26:02
stratosphere.
26:03
Yeah, yeah.
26:04
So there's a lot of simple routine type
26:06
things that people can do to help build
26:08
some of that.
26:10
So as we are nearing the end of
26:13
our time in this conversation, I'm curious, what
26:16
do you think is the most important thing
26:18
for leaders, and maybe specifically leaders in the
26:21
mental health space, since that's who we're talking
26:23
to, to know, to do, to embrace today,
26:27
if you could just sort of pick out
26:29
one thing that would be useful or helpful?
26:31
I think the most important thing is that
26:34
when we see people out of control, we
26:38
are not talking to that person.
26:41
We're talking to an unconscious part of their
26:43
brain.
26:43
And I think we oftentimes make assumptions that
26:46
people know what the right choice is and
26:49
are choosing not to do it.
26:50
Sometimes they don't know what the right choice
26:52
is.
26:53
Sometimes they don't have that choice because their
26:55
biology has taken over and they are in
26:57
a reactionary state where they're just, you know,
27:00
the unconscious part of their brain is saying,
27:02
I got to keep you alive, you're in
27:03
danger.
27:04
And so I think by just understanding that
27:06
any behavior is biology and context.
27:10
And so when we see behaviors, looking at
27:12
them through that lens to say, this may
27:14
have nothing to do with the reality of
27:17
what I'm experiencing right now.
27:18
And so it gives you a little bit
27:19
of grace and space and empathy for people
27:22
when they're out of control, instead of having
27:24
conflict and being angry with them.
27:26
And then I think the other piece is
27:27
we have so much power to shape a
27:30
positive context.
27:31
I tell people all the time, the solution
27:33
to pollution is dilution.
27:35
And we have a lot of negative filters,
27:38
biases, beliefs in our brain that impact the
27:40
way we see our reality and the way
27:42
we perceive that and the way we perceive
27:44
others.
27:45
And so if we have all these negative
27:46
filters, the way to counteract them, we can't
27:48
necessarily remove them, but we can add more
27:51
positive ones.
27:52
So the brain goes, well, there's some bad,
27:54
there's some good, but I still need the
27:56
thinking part of the brain to weigh in
27:58
to help me know how to react.
27:59
Because if all we have is the negative,
28:01
then that limbic part of the brain that's
28:03
there to keep you alive and safe takes
28:05
over.
28:06
That's great.
28:07
Well, Lisa, thank you so much for being
28:09
our guest today.
28:10
It was great to hear about your book
28:13
and the way that you work with leaders
28:15
in a way that supports neuroscience.
28:17
So thank you for that.
28:18
I love especially your pieces on the mind
28:20
-body connection.
28:22
Yeah, well, thank you so much for having
28:23
me.
28:23
And if people want to link with me
28:25
on LinkedIn, please don't hesitate.
28:27
I love to hear feedback and have coffee
28:30
chats with people who are just interested in
28:31
the work that I'm doing and want to
28:33
share what they're doing.
28:34
Awesome.
28:35
Well, we will be back next week to
28:37
discuss more issues relevant in the mental health
28:39
care community.
28:40
Thank you for listening and bye for now.
28:44
Thanks for listening to the Mental Health Evolution
28:47
podcast.
28:48
Join the conversation, find us on social, send
28:51
us your thoughts, and tell us what you're
28:53
seeing in your corner of the mental health
28:55
world.
28:56
Until next time, stay curious and keep evolving.