Latest / Off the Clock, On the Rocks with Abby and Kate / Episode 6: Horrible Bosses | Off the Clock, On the Rocks

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Episode 6: Horrible Bosses | Off the Clock, On the Rocks · Off the Clock, On the Rocks with Abby and Kate

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Tea.
0:00
unknown: Okay.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: Mocktail edition.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Off the Clock on the Rocks with Abby and Kate, where work ends and real life begins.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: What is on the rocks for us today?
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Yours isn't on the rocks.
0:14
SPEAKER_02: It's not on the rocks, but we are having some delicious green tea with lemon.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: Green tea with lemon.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: And I made a nice little mocktail with zero pellegrino blood orange, sprite, and some orange liquid death.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: Yay.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: But it is on the rocks.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: Today's episode is about horrible bosses.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: Just kidding.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: It's about I mean that could be part of it, but it's about people quit bosses, not jobs.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk about leadership, bosses, how to be a good leader, bosses and people we've had in our past.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: And this is like the on the clock version of off the clock on the box.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Very much so.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: We were both people leaders for the yeah.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a long time.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Long, long time.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and now you're like a big, big people leader lady, you know?
1:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which is different.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: Um big people that you lead, but you also have a good experience to speak to.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: So let's start.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the worst boss you've ever had, no naming names.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: No naming names, I think.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: But like what made them a bad boss?
1:29
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah yeah, yeah.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: I think that was the reason why I left our former company.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: Um because as we mentioned before, we had the choice um to either step down or to um or to take a severance.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: And in my situation, I went from a very supportive environment to I think a place where I think you would assume at first glance it was trial by fire, but then you realize that there was a lot of toxicity um in a thing.
2:02
SPEAKER_02: Long story short, I had three bosses that I I guess reported to, officially one on paper, but three that made collectively decisions for our department.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, there was one who was the one who um hired me at the time and um we didn't have a like a personal relationship, and I I had worked with them in the past, but never in a capacity where they supported me for a really long time.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: I just knew of them.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, so we didn't have that very close relationship.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: But I think the reason why it made them a really bad boss is because when I first met them, I had a perception that they were really go-getters and people who take action and take charge, and they're gonna, you know, be the voice of the employee or whomever they're they're in charge of.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: Um but when I went into that space, it was almost like I met a completely different person.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: And um there were times where there were comments made in front of me and my leaders of this is what I would do, but you're the boss, so like it's up to you.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: And that wouldn't be a decision, like the decision they made isn't or the one I would make.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: I would go a different route because we are very different.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, so then you're kind of just forced to go with what they said because you report to them, right?
3:20
SPEAKER_00: Well it puts you in a weird position when they're like, Well, this is what I do, but uh do your own thing.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: But there's like lack of empowerment and like trust in why they hired you to do what you did.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: And that was like my first thing, and I was like, you know, maybe like this used to be their team, maybe like that's like the relationship there that I hadn't yet built with them, so I get it.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, but when I brought it up and I gave them feedback, they're like, oh, I never said that, I don't remember.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: Ugh, I hate that.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Like total deflection, lack of ownership and accountability for your own stuff.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: Like, if you're gonna say something, especially as a leader, you expect people to remember it because you're their target focus, right?
3:58
SPEAKER_00: If things go wrong, you're the boss, you have to deal with it.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: If things go right, they did it, you know?
4:03
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's like a lot of people don't look at it that way, but that's very much like, oh, like I'm just gonna like reject your.
4:10
SPEAKER_02: And I knew this person had like, I wouldn't say issues, but I remember the very first time we met, it was like, I'm not a good people leader, I'm a I'm a numbers person, I'm analytics, and you cannot and you I value that because it lets me know like how you're gonna look at certain situations, what approach I can take.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: But when I heard that and then you had this, it and to me it made it seem like you were trying to look good in front of the employees, you put me in a really shitty situation, and when I confronted you, it's almost like I forgot, so let's forget about it and move on.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's no longer a matter, and I've moved on from that, so you should too.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: And that was that like that was the first of a couple of things that happened.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: So I think ultimately where I was very unhappy is if I don't have the trust in my own leadership to be able to go to them, um, then I'm I I disconnected at that point.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay, then I won't check out yeah, I won't go to you anymore.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: It's okay, I'll figure it out.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: Which kind of puts you in another bad position because then you're on on like an island yourself making your own decisions, whereas like there's no follow-up support, you know?
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: Like you need the backup.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think like when I from a leadership perspective, when I've led people, I want people to be able to make mistakes and I want to challenge them and push them.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: But when they make mistakes and they they make a decision and it maybe doesn't go the way that you know I I would have expected or they would have expected, or according to plan, you need to be there to like help pick them up and let them learn from it versus just walking away and being like, Oh, I knew you were gonna fuck that up, because then that completely ruins the relationship, you know.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, my worst boss of all time, I remember, I'm not gonna name names, but it was in early on in my like beginning leadership career at our previous company.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: So this was probably now 14 years ago, and it was uh my first like second team I worked on, and I worked under him.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: He was like the salaried employee, I was like the the senior rep at that time.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: And I remember how the biggest thing is how he made me feel about stuff.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: So he was like very much a person of like, I'm not gonna take ownership or accountability for anything, and if something goes wrong, it's your fault, not my fault.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things I remember him doing, because I was very active and engaged with like the people and what was going on, I like to be up and about, and I was like getting them all started for the day.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: We were like, they were all getting logged in, and you know, first calls were starting to happen where you're sensing out like how people are feeling for the day and like who I need to pay attention to and who's gonna need help and and all of that.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: So I'm kind of like doing my rounds like that.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, he had cut and it was like Monday morning, and he came in with a two sticky notes stuck together, like he had made like a list and then stuck the second sticky note to the first one.
6:55
SPEAKER_00: And it was all of the things that had gone wrong that he wanted to make my fault.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: And so as I'm going around checking in on the team, he's following me around with this sticky note, like reading off the stuff that he felt was my fault.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: And all of it was stuff he should do as like the salaried employee, as the coach of that team, as the leader of that team.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: And it was very easy for him to just say, like, oh, I'm gonna deflect all this on you, you should have done bit, bit, bit, bit, which were all his responsibilities.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of like where it started to go bad.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: And then I think he felt a little bit, I'm not sure if he was like upset or threatened or frustrated by me in general, because our manager would come in to visit us or to check in on the team, and he would only come in when he was there to like check on what was going on.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: But when I was there by myself running the team, which was frequent because he would take a lot of time off or leave early to go and do stuff with his family, which is fine, but he wouldn't report it his time off.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: He would like like kind of cover it up so I was covering for him.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: So when I was running the team by myself, the manager never came by.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: And I was wondering, I'm like, well, is it because he doesn't trust me or whatever?
8:04
SPEAKER_00: And I'd asked him at one point, I was like, why don't you come in when I'm there and when it's just me by myself?
8:11
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, Well, because I know you have it, like I know you'll be fine, but when he's there, I have to double check.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: And that was another one of those indicators where I'm like, oh, you know, yeah, and then he said something to me that I mentioned this on another episode of what we were talking about.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: And there was um an and my goal always was, and this is pivoted now some somewhat, but I always wanted to see how far I could get in the company, how high up I could go.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: Like it was like VP or nothing kind of thing, you know?
8:39
SPEAKER_00: And um at this time I was like starting this this career, I was making a name for myself, and and you know, I think had a body of work that spoke to like what I was capable of doing at that time.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: And this admin administrative assistant position posted, and he was like, You should apply for that.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Like you should be in an admin.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, what?
9:01
SPEAKER_00: And to me, no shade against admins, that's a very hard job, right?
9:04
SPEAKER_00: But it was not what I wanted to do.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be a people leader, I wanted to not have an individual contributor role, I wanted to like influence large groups of people.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: That was my goal.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: He wanted to keep you hush, he wanted to diminish me, yes, right?
9:16
SPEAKER_00: And so it was like every little thing that would happen is a way of him like trying to smush me down or diminish my perspective, perspective, or my options.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: And then the manager always obviously saw something in me, right?
9:29
SPEAKER_00: And he was he told me that.
9:31
SPEAKER_00: But this guy just was like, every time there was like a training or something where it's like, okay, about leadership, where it's like, imagine your worst boss of all time.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: He's always the one that comes up in my head.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: And it fucking bugs me, you know?
9:44
SPEAKER_00: And then recently, after the layoff, and I was posting, like I've been doing my own business.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: I post I post leadership and career advice on online, and I posted on this video for this one day, um, and he commented on it and he was like, I always knew that you'd be able to like like it was him that did it.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, you PON, you know, like, and it's just he keeps coming back, you know, where you don't like go away.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: It's like guilt.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what it is, but I think they know.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: I think they enjoyed it.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: When they're a bad boss.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that there's a a feeling of threat that people have when they see somebody else doing what they can't do, you know?
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Like it's like that whole old adage of like if you can't do, teach.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, if you can't do, then maybe you're a leader.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, that's not what a leader is.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: I had a bad peer.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: My bad peer that she um, I think um, how can I explain this?
10:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, I got really good at influencing, and I got very good.
10:56
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, you were you were my boss at that time, so you were kind of teaching me the ropes of that.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: Once I got to a point where I got really good at my job, I always needed to kind of similar to gay, I needed to have a next challenge to look forward to.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: And she had challenged me to do more um work with my peers if I wanted to move up, because essentially you're gonna be coaching and developing them, right?
11:18
SPEAKER_02: So they need to see that you're up for the challenge and that you can um get their buy-in.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: If you can move your peers, you can move employees, exactly.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um and anything and everything I did on the front end, super nice, very nice, very respectful for me.
11:36
SPEAKER_02: But then I would hear some of the things that she would talk about behind my back and some of the things, and I really do think that because she made a comment that things seemed to always be handed to me, I ended up not getting like it was gonna stir up a little bit of like a different view with the team, but I I really worked really hard for everything I had, and it was really hard for her.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: So I think the way that she would try to put She was also not a hard worker and expected everything to come to her easily and wasn't willing to put in the effort or the time or implementing it.
12:11
SPEAKER_02: Essentially, she she went around having this narrative that everything just came easy to me, that you gave me everything, that um, and that wasn't the case at all.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: Like I worked very hard.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: I took my development very seriously.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: The whole point of this episode is we're talking about like why people quit bosses and not jobs, right?
12:31
SPEAKER_00: And I think the the theory and the idea behind that is that people in your workplace can be more way more influential than the job your job itself, right?
12:40
SPEAKER_00: The job could be something you're capable of doing that you actually enjoy doing, but when you have a bad leader or even a bad peer, it could be so toxic that it's like, I'm not gonna do this anymore.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Even though it's something I'm capable of, it's good money and I I could do a great job at it.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the whole point of like people quit the job the boss, not the job.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: And that's the importance of having like a great leader, you know?
13:04
SPEAKER_02: I think so.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: I think one of the things that stands out to um to me is that I I know that the reason I left the former company was because I didn't want to be in that environment any longer, and I didn't want to be with the boss who was not gonna be supportive, who didn't take any accountability, um, who was only gonna scrutinize our team when we were doing bad, but never gonna recognize the good things that we did or the effort that we were making, right?
13:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, never took the time to give me feedback.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: It was always you're doing great, but then I would get the feedback from their leadership of hey, where's this at, or what are these things going on?
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Where nothing was constructive or helpful to help you grow, even the positive should have some constructive.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, never was like that.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: But I will say that when when when I left um my former our former company, it's very interesting that people that reach out to you that you made an impact for, and it is always something along the lines of you made the job more bearable, or because of you, I was able to stick it through.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't know how long I'm gonna hang on to here.
14:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, I had somebody come to my house.
14:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, she literally came to my house and she was like, Hey, I just want to check in on you.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, work is very crazy, right?
14:17
SPEAKER_02: And it had been maybe a couple days, like it hadn't even been that much more time to where you really feel the rift of the transition um with the decision that they made.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: And she came to my house and I was a little taken aback, and I was like, Well, do you want to come in?
14:32
SPEAKER_00: And she did.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: She came in, she sat down on my.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: I think I'd be weirded out.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: I think the fact that she knew where I lived, because I had never told her, um, that was a little strange, but very strange.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: What?
14:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but she came into my house and she's like, hey, like, I just wanted to hang like not hang out with you, but I just want to check in on you.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Oh, I'm doing great.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: Like, I I gotta figure things out.
15:01
SPEAKER_02: I just knew that this was no longer a good fit for me.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't think I could have grown in the place or where the company was going.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: It would it's not where I'm aligned.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: And she's like, Oh, okay.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, I just want to let you know that you know it's it's really tough out there, and everything you taught me, like I really appreciate it, but I too am gonna start looking for another job.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if she I think she's still there.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I don't I didn't follow up with her, but it is because she crept you out by coming to your house or creeped me out by her.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: Well, I just you know it she wanted to have a friendship, and obviously I never um very much the same.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: I keep things at work very separate, but it it was appreciated and it it talks about the impact that you had with people, validation, and even now, you know, one of my really great peers, Jay, if you're watching, him and I had a very um pretty cool relationship where I think it was a little bit of a challenge for me to give him feedback, but he ended up being a super great leader.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: Um and landed in a really good spot, yes, yeah.
16:05
SPEAKER_02: Congrats to you.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think at a situation like that, I I would assume I would consider myself a really good leader.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: You kind of have those moments where you're like, man, I'm really happy that I at least got to make an impact on that person.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, or that I at least like like I I know it's not just me that you stayed the job through what I'm happy that I was able to help you, or maybe there was a difficult time in your life and I could at least relate with you.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: Because it there were a lot of times where I would help my peers and my team and do their work for them a little bit, but I knew that one of them had to go to their kids things, like somebody had to like a family member had an a doctor's appointment, so I'd be like, Don't worry, take your time, you're not gonna fall behind.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: I got you.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that's like such a good characteristic of a leader because there's a time where you have to step in.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: But there's also a time as a leader where you don't step in and you let them figure it out.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: But but when you talk about like building rapport and building trust and really solid relationships in which somebody is willing to work for you and work very hard for you, it's because they know that you're gonna be there to pick them back up, right?
17:08
SPEAKER_00: And they know that they can trust what you're saying.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think you mentioned like not being able to get feedback or that's a huge thing I hear from a lot of people.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: They're like, I have no idea how I'm doing.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what it is about leaders that are afraid.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people who are afraid to have conversations or afraid to have difficult conversations or to tell somebody how they're really doing.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, here's what I think you do really well.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you were able to do these things more effectively, oh my gosh, you would be, you know, even more effective.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: But having those types of conversations hard for people.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: And the people that I would say have been some of my best bosses I've ever had have been very capable and caring and willing to have those types of conversations.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: Like I think I I was in uh previous interactions in my old version of myself, was very emotionally reactive.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: I was like, my anger led me, you know?
18:03
SPEAKER_00: And I, and I would like, I I remember times where and people would just say, oh, she's gonna say what's on the top of her her mind all the time.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: And you can always tell what I'm thinking, my face shows it.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: I've gotten some comments about that, like when you're talking about the whole um umbilical cord thing, they're like, oh my god, your face.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: But um but my anger would lead me, and when I was really frustrated about something or I felt my team was slighted, specifically that, because I would go into mama bear mode where I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna rip this person apart because they did something to my people, because I took that very seriously.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had a boss that was like, if you keep doing that, like not only are you gonna probably not work here anymore, it's gonna be detrimental to your whole life.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: And they gave me this amazing mentor, Nancy, who is the best, she's amazing.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: I still love her.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: She gets a Christmas card from me every year.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: We talk every once in a while and she's delightful.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: But um, she's taught me so much about how to regulate my emotions, how to regulate my anger, how to communicate in a way that was conducive to people being able to grow from it.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Instead of me being like showing that side of it, I can still have the emotion, but I need to choose how to uh react to it and how to move forward from it.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: And not only did she show me that, which changed my whole life, I've been able to teach that to so many other people that struggle with that.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: And so I see that from a leadership perspective of having comfortability, having a very difficult conversation and saying the thing that somebody else isn't gonna say to you, and the thing that's gonna really be the pivot point of like you could be way better.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: And that's I think what makes a good leader is they see potential in you and they push you to something that you know don't think you're capable of, and they're willing to support you and give the resources to get you through that point.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: And if they didn't care and they weren't a good leader, they would avoid the conversation, and that's the whole point, right?
19:55
SPEAKER_00: If they're not willing to give you the feedback, there's a challenge there.
19:58
SPEAKER_02: I think so, but I think to simplify it, a really bad leader.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for simplifying it.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: I'm always too wordy.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
20:07
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you set a really good example of what a good leader is, and it really comes down to just caring.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, you can do things in a you can present them badly, and I and I think I learned that from you.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to be perfect at what you do, you just have to be willing to take accountability that man, I didn't do this right, that wasn't my intention.
20:25
SPEAKER_02: Here's where I was trying to go with that.
20:27
SPEAKER_02: And you can always learn.
20:28
SPEAKER_02: It is we will always be ever learning on whatever it is that we're focused on.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: But to the complete opposite of that, a really bad boss is somebody who doesn't care.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: They don't care to give you feedback, they don't care to talk good about you, they don't care to see you succeed, they don't care about anything that happens to you.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: And nine times out of ten, they're not good at their job, so all they can do is talk really bad about the people that are underneath them, and that's the only thing that I've seen.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: They're egotistical, they only think about a title, that is all they care.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: And typically they end up just thinking about numbers and how do we get here?
21:04
SPEAKER_02: And they start doing shady stuff, and you can just sense that from a mile away.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: So I think the biggest thing I try to portray, and one of the things that I'm really it's a really big one uh for my team right now is that you have to have a safe space, you have to have a place where there's gonna be some grace.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh nobody's gonna let you, you know, fall and hit your head.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna let you fall and, you know, maybe, you know, scrape yourself a little bit.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna take care of that, and then we're gonna teach you how do we how do we get back up and how do we do it again, right?
21:33
SPEAKER_02: But then how do you pay it forward and teach somebody else who may be in your shoes one day and you're trying to bring them on board?
21:40
SPEAKER_00: Such a good point.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and you collaborate and you grow together, and eventually, really good leaders have a very easy job because their people are doing the work that they're supposed to be doing.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: I always thought, like, if I could teach my team to think like the level above them and to act in that perspective and eventually put myself out of a job, that would be the Ideal and my team could run itself, then the performance always happens.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: Like I never ever worried about meeting numbers.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, I'm not a numbers person.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't like them, hating to tell you, I hate accounting, bank related, anything.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to mess with anything numbers related.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: I hate it.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: But I move performance by moving the people.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: And when you care about the people, and I love the th the fact that you said give them a safe space to be in, right?
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Because people are gonna make make mistakes, and a lot of what drives people is job security, you know, the fear of losing my job.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: And I can't tell you how many times I've I've heard that from people who don't get consistent coaching or don't get consistent feedback, and then their boss calls them in.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, am I getting fired today?
22:41
SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: What did I do wrong?
22:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, but when that conversation is consistent, like if I I remember meeting with all of my people every single week.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: And so it wasn't like a scary thing if something came up because we were always talking.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: So no matter what, I knew what was happening.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: But the more detached you are, the more fear there is.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: And when people feel fear, then they're not gonna work as hard.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna always be a self-protection mechanism.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna tell you I made a mistake because you could use it against me.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna push myself to achieve that next level because what if it doesn't go right?
23:13
SPEAKER_00: And you need to give them a safe space to make the mistake and to fail, but also be able to save them through that and teach them through it through it because that's where the development happens, you know?
23:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: I love that part.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, talk about like the thing that you found is like your best leader or your best boss.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you feel like that was?
23:31
SPEAKER_02: Ah, is she setting herself up?
23:33
SPEAKER_00: It can't be, it can't be me.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: You have to pick somebody else.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: It can't be me.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm not asking about me.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm the best.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: Stop it.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: No, I I really do think that you you helped me a lot.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: I I I catapulted significantly.
23:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think the person who saw it in me was one of your former peers.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, but she we were in such a very interesting time in our business at that point where she was stretched very thin.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes, and she pretty much just told me I trust you enough to lead this that I'm giving you.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: And I did, but I never looked like I never had the opportunity to.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I always I was always thankful for her pushing me out of my comfort zone, but it was never like a development or mentorship.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: I just was appreciative that she saw that in me and she pushed me to do it because I'll be honest, I was at my job for years, more than five years.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: I was just an agent and I was okay with that.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: I worked a significant amount of overtime because that's what drove me.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: Like financial stability was something that I was really like and I did my job really well.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, so if you are very self-sufficient in our previous department, you you can get away with a lot.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's a lot of trust in that, which is okay.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: But I think she saw that in me, and then very quickly you stepped in when I started moving up.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: And I think through you and I working together, there were um there were certain situations that stand out to me.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the very first things where I knew, and it was like a very like, should I do it, should I not?
25:14
SPEAKER_02: And I was honestly more pissed.
25:16
SPEAKER_02: Um so I I wasn't going with the intention of giving feedback.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, but essentially what had happened is I had just acquired this brand new team.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: There was this girl who was gonna report to me, she was our our our team lead at that time, and um, she was running this side project, but she eventually ended up coming back to her position and she reports to me now.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: And I had very, you know, I wanted to set expectations, here's what it should look like, here's what I want you to do, here's like what we're focusing on the team.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: But every time she was dissatisfied with something, instead of coming to me because she knew my answer, she would go to Kate.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: And she would go to Kate all the time.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: And then eventually it got to the point where I was more frustrated than anything.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: And I went up to Kate and I said, Hey, here's what's happening, here's the directive that you're giving her, or the direction that you're giving her.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: It's not something that I'm aligned with, but if you want her to report to you, I will answer any questions and I'm gonna send her your way.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember this at all.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I remember this.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: I hope so.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: Because it sounds good.
26:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is where things changed, the dynamic changed between us because I was pretty scared and I was super new.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's it was like me being in charge of a team.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: And when I told you that, you were it it took you a couple days.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't right away.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, I processed it.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you came back to me and you said, You're a hundred percent right.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: I'm taking away your opportunity to lead her and give her guidance.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna redirect her back to you every time she comes to me.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: Since then, I was able to kind of help her overcome some things.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: I still think that she had a little bit of development that she got she had to go through because she wasn't all the way like emotionally.
26:58
SPEAKER_02: There was a lot of uh, you know, emotional reaction that was happening there.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: Um but it wasn't until that point where I was like, ah, okay, like she's gonna re she she has some sort of level of respect for me, even though I report to her and I appreciated that.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: And then I started to become more, you know, attentive to what do you want, or what are your expectations, or or how do I do that?
27:24
SPEAKER_02: And once I figured out my job, I think you and I both realized like there's significantly more than I can do, and then you just started challenging me.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: And then yeah, it was it was that to me was a I will never forget that time.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad you remember it because I don't remember it at all.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: I was like, um, but there's like a I think a lot of times you mentioned earlier too that like some people will come to you and be like, oh, this situation was so impactful to me.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think of them the same way because to me it's like okay, this is just what I do, right?
27:55
SPEAKER_00: But they're individual things for each of these people that were very impactful for them.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people have said stuff like that to me, but to me, you know, I'm just doing what I need to to to serve the people that that I have, right?
28:08
SPEAKER_00: So to me, they're not as memorable because it's just like, okay, deal with it, right?
28:12
SPEAKER_00: But I do think that there's two things that you mentioned that I think are worth talking about.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: One, there's the humility and willing to admit that you're wrong.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think when you go up to somebody and especially somebody that reports to you or is one of your your um your people on your team, um, being able to say I was wrong and I messed up and I shouldn't have done that is such a valuable thing.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Because when you show your weakness and your mistakes and your failures to your people, it builds trust in a way that they're willing to be very vulnerable back to you, right?
28:43
SPEAKER_00: Because you they know it's not like, oh, she's perfect.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, I've screwed up a lot of times.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: Like there's so many things I've screwed up in my life and especially at work in so many learning lessons, but being able to share those things has helped help that relationship.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: So that's, I think, very important.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: And then the other thing you said that I think is a huge thing for a leader is giving them, and this was my peer that you're talking about, but giving them an opportunity, the people that you see who have something in them that they may not see is giving them a seat at the table before they're ready for it.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: When they are not in the room, how are you speaking about that person?
29:17
SPEAKER_00: How are you talking about them?
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Like I find that so important because if the the people that you report to don't get daily interaction with the people on your team and it's through you that they see them.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: If you're not speaking and advocating for your people and talking about their successes, who else will?
29:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: And you have to go in and you have to talk and celebrate these things.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things I used to do is we had this this director always had an open door, and I would always go in there and we would chit-chat, but I'd use those opportunities to highlight my people, the growth that my people had in a very informal way.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like a sit-down, like, tell me about your team.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: It was more like, oh my God, the coolest thing just happened.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, this person did this thing.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: And what you're doing in this that roundabout way as a leader is you're advocating and you're celebrating your people, but in a way that doesn't sound forced or um like out of context, right?
30:11
SPEAKER_00: It's just like, oh, this is cool and it's awesome that they did it.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: And you're implanting these ideas consistently in your own leadership about the successes of your people.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: So when they apply for something or something comes up for them, or there's an opportunity, they already know enough about what they've done through these little conversations that you can be like, oh, this person's gonna be great for it.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a huge part of being a leader is advocating and speaking for your people when they're not there.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: But I think when you do give them credit publicly, like that only boosts their confidence.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: And you can say like they're big cheeser and they come up with even better ideas, they want to contribute more, they want to collaborate.
30:48
SPEAKER_02: So I think that's always a really good thing to to have.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: Like both sides of that same coin, too, right?
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of people who say, like, oh, I don't want to be celebrated publicly, and maybe it's because they're yeah, maybe it's because they're like they're insecure or they're quiet or whatever.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: But those are the times where even if it's something where you know they don't say they don't want to be celebrated publicly, if you're advocating to your boss about somebody, and then you let them know, hey, it'd be really cool if you swung by there and just told them, like, hey, I heard that you did this great thing.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: So like they're still getting celebrated and they hear that somebody else is being talked about talking about them in a positive way, and that that also does those things.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: So, how can you like showcase your people publicly, privately, and advocate for them?
31:31
SPEAKER_00: That's what makes to me a very good leader that I would follow until the ends of the earth.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: And there's been people who've put me in those positions much sooner than I was ready for, who have uh have seen stuff in me that I wasn't quite prepared for.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: One that I remember, her name was Dre.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: She was fantastic, she was crazy, crazier than me.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: And like, that's saying something.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: But um, she was super cool, and I remember her giving me um so many things.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: I was like a new leader, and she was like, Okay, can you do this?
32:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'd be like, Yep, yep.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: And I was always saying yes to her, always like, yeah, I'll take that on.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: And finally it got to the point where I was like so buried in shit that I had said yes to.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: I finally was like, I can't do that.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Oh, finally.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, What do you mean, finally?
32:18
SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Oh, I've been doing this to see when your breaking point was.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: How much are you gonna take on?
32:22
SPEAKER_00: Or are you gonna stand up and say, I can't do that?
32:24
SPEAKER_00: That and that I learned so much from that.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, be realistic about what is it you're capable of doing, and don't just say yes to please somebody, do the best job you can, but be realistic with your time and your commitments.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like I've taught some other people that through that roundabout way, which is like you're saying about like you pass it forward, like you learn something and you're like, oh, that changed my life.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: And then you see somebody else do something and you're like, I'm gonna help that, you know, and I, you know, push them in a in a certain way that's good for them.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I agree.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: Learning lessons, you always try to move forward.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: When it comes to a leader, what's better?
32:58
SPEAKER_00: One that micromanages or one that's completely absent.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: I think that's hard.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so hard.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: They're both really bad qualities.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have one I would pick.
33:08
SPEAKER_02: I think the one that leaves me solo would be the one I would go with.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Me too.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: That's what I would pick.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: Because the micro, I've had a micromanager and that is not fun.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: You feel like there's no freedom.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes everything and anything you do is wrong.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's never up to their standards.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: If you do good, they pick it apart.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: If you do bad, it's your fault, and they just come at you.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: So I think if you leave me alone, at least I'll if I do something wrong, I'll figure it out.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: And at least I'm by myself, yeah.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not like overwhelmed.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's one of the things people say a lot is like, oh, I don't want to be micromanaged.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: There's two sides of that.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: There's the times where you're not doing your job well, so you have to be inspected a lot, which no leader wants to inspect that much.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: No leader wants to be sit, no good leader, wants to be there being like, oh, are you doing the things that you said?
33:56
SPEAKER_00: So as a as an employee or as a as a person in general, do what you say you're gonna do, right?
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Follow through.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: Don't give them a reason to micromanage.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: But got leaders that are up there and just like don't trust anything and don't allow their team to do anything and are always involved is like very overwhelming, you know.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: So I would as well pick, please don't get away from me.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, get the fuck away from me.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: I had a boss one time, this new she was brand new, and she'd come to um the site from like a completely different state, and she hadn't really done that job before, and I was very, very bless you, thank you, salute.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: She has allergies, hence the T.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, but she um had come to come to town, hadn't been in that position before, but I was like very at that point had a very good track record of like performing very well.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Like my teams were great, and she was like so involved in everything I was doing, and I was irritated.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, step back, lady.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: Like you're you not only are you harsh on my mellow, you're like really piss pissing me off.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't do what I need to because you're always there, like overwhelming me.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: And I went to my mentor Nancy and I was I was bitching about this boss of mine, and she said, Have you sat down and had the conversation of like here's what I need to be successful, and I need to know what you need to be successful so that we can work well together.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, No, I use this all the time now, but at that point I'd never done that.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: And so we sat down and we had it out, and I was like, I think at one point previous to that, we'd had like a I was still dealing with my anger.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: I I had think I had raised my voice at her and I'd backed out of her office because I was so overwhelmed by like her.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: And so we sat down, we had this conversation.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: I said, I work best when you trust me and allow me to do what I need to, and if I have a problem, I will come to you with a problem, but I need you to show up right then, right when I have the problem, and then otherwise I need you to leave me alone, and I do very well that way.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: And she she explained to me what she needed from me, and I'm like, we can make those things happen, and it was perfect after that, but it was like having a very difficult conversation to get through to it because she was still learning, so she was trying to learn from me, and I didn't know that, so I just thought she was just like in it, you know.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: I see, but because we didn't communicate that I was making assumptions, she was making assumptions, and we had like a metaphorical dick measuring contest happening.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: You were probably measuring, she was just trying to learn.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know, I who knows, but I was measuring for sure.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: But I think that's important to you because I remember um you say that which part it's important to you to be trusted, yes, uh I because you I remember there would be um a lot of situations where I would go to you and I'd be like, Oh, this is kind of what I'm facing.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: And then she's like, you just need to go up to your boss and you need to tell them, let me do the job I was hired to do.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: Like that was something that's redundant for you.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: So I think having the trust in your ability is something that's very crucial for you to be successful in your role.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: And I think I've proven myself a lot.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: So, like, look at the the body of work I have, the experience that I have, and know that I will do well for you.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
37:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the same thing, like as a leader.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: And I remember like a lot of my people, you included, would come to me and ask me questions, and there's certain things you just are not allowed to say yet, right?
37:23
SPEAKER_00: There are certain things that I have to hold back, and there'd be times I'd be like, Trust me, I'm working on it, and I'm gonna get it figured out, and then you'll know.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: But it's like that part's important too, because I'm always working on the back end trying to get what I need to done, but I always you can't always share it.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: So give me the give me the trust to know I got your back, and then when it happens, it's like she was doing what she said she was gonna do, so that's important to me too.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but good bosses be a good boss, not a shitty boss.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: Are we ready for rapid fire?
37:52
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
37:53
SPEAKER_02: All right, do bad employees create bad bosses?
37:57
SPEAKER_00: No, bad bosses create the bad employees.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: I believe that wholeheartedly because the your job as a leader is to flex to the people that you work for, and I've always thought that.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not your boss in a way that or I'm not a leader in a way that like I'm better than you, I'm here to serve you and support you.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: And so I need to be able to flex every muscle that I have to do individual things and focus on individual people in the way they need to be taken care of best.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: So if you don't have a boss that's invested in you, that's where the bad employee comes in.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: And you're a bad employee, we could say bad employee, but that's with lack of coaching, follow-up, accountability, conversation, support, direction.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: So if I can be there and I can provide you the things that you need to be more effective, then I will make you better than you ever have before.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: And then you'll grow into something, and that sounds bad, but like you'll grow into something with that support that you didn't know you were capable of.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: But if you're a bad boss and you put all that stuff on the employee, it starts with the boss every time.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: And then I think that's where you determine is it a skill issue, which you should overcome with everything that Kate just said, or is it a willingness issue?
39:02
SPEAKER_02: And then that's how you determine if it's a performance issue.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: But essentially it'd be a good litter, uh, good leader because they tried everything they needed to.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I don't feel bad about firing people if I've done all I can.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: Because they they need to bring them up.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: They fire themselves eventually.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Right, they need to bring themselves to the table, and if they don't, we'll work through it.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: But if I've done all the things I can and you haven't done it, then bye-bye.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't feel bad.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we'll talk about firing people on a future episode.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've fired so many people in my life.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: I run into them all the time, and everyone's nice to me.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, isn't that weird?
39:34
SPEAKER_00: That is very interesting.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really weird.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: Okay, is this a red flag or not a red flag?
39:40
SPEAKER_00: Your boss regularly sends emails at midnight.
39:43
SPEAKER_02: That is a red flag.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: Yes, tell me why.
39:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh, that is a red flag because I don't sell email send emails at night, and that lets me know that they're thinking about something, and then I'm just I don't I don't like that.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Or they have no time management or work-life balance or can't cut off.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not good.
39:58
SPEAKER_02: They're gonna expect me to do the same one day, and I'm gonna be like, oh no, no, no.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: No, thank you.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: I think that's what the guy with the sticky notes was doing was like tracking everything on the weekend and then trying to make me feel bad for it.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, buddy, but no.
40:12
SPEAKER_02: Have you ever had an employee question your leadership?
40:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: Really?
40:17
SPEAKER_00: All the time.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: So many.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: One that stands out.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that there's one that stands out.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that when there's a level of competition and a somebody that doesn't understand you very well, um, there is that questioning thing where they push back or they they question what you do.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: And that's happened to me when I've taken over new teams.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, when I have somebody on my team that's older than me and they report to me that's happened.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, and in one specific case, I had this guy who his name is Larry.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: He's passed away now, but he taught me a lot in my early leadership career.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: But he was much older than me, probably 30 years older than me.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: He um was in the frontline position and had this experience before, but he was like incredibly challenging to work with.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: Like everybody who had had him on a team before was like, watch out for Larry.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, like he's gonna be a pain in your butt.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: And I was brand new, hired in as like my first salaried position at this company.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: And I um took over the team, and he was what they said very hard to work with.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: And I was young at that point, much younger than him, and there was this like battle, and he was he was always saying like how he would do it and how he like different things, right?
41:37
SPEAKER_00: And um, so I was like, hmm, how do I get through to this guy, right?
41:42
SPEAKER_00: And how do I like build a relationship with him?
41:45
SPEAKER_00: And so instead of it being something where I was like, I'm gonna force you to see me in that way, what I did with him was I would ask him questions, right?
41:53
SPEAKER_00: Like, how would you approach this?
41:55
SPEAKER_00: Or if this came up like and we were in this situation, how would you coach that person or what would you say to them?
42:01
SPEAKER_00: And while I didn't agree with the majority of the things that he said, what started to happen is he saw that I valued his opinion.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: And so the wall started to break down little by little.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: And um then he was became a lot easier for me to work with because he knew that I valued his opinion.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: I didn't always use what he said, a lot of times I didn't, and we would have good conversation about it, but every once in a while I would do the thing that he said, and it was just like very reaffirming for him.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: But at the same point, what I was able to do was show him value and be able to turn it into a better relationship.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: And he worked so hard for me after that.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: Everybody was like, We're putting Larry on your team, and I had him on my team for years, um, years and years.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: He was sweet, sweet, sweet man after that.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: That's so inter that's a very interesting strategy, I think, because you didn't end up doing what he wanted.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: No, no, but like we had good conversation about it.
43:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, you know, like tell me your perspective.
43:06
SPEAKER_02: Here's what I think about it.
43:07
SPEAKER_02: I get it.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's like every once in a while, even if I didn't like the idea, I would I would try it because then it shows him that I am actually listening to him.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: So, and I mean, again, we're gonna make mistakes and we're gonna learn, so there's nothing wrong with that.
43:21
SPEAKER_00: I have an opinion on this one.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, agree or not, agree.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: A good boss doesn't need to be liked.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: I agree, and I will tell you why you taught me that.
43:32
SPEAKER_02: That's really like the question.
43:34
SPEAKER_02: I have like such a strong opinion on this.
43:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, I remember, and you would say this I think more than once.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: You were like, I don't care if you guys don't like me.
43:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm here to do my job.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: And if that means that I have to hold you accountable or we're gonna have to do things this way, that's what it means.
43:52
SPEAKER_02: But I think what I learned and what I took away from it is that the people who value you and respect you.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: They will always have the tough conversations that you don't want to hear.
44:03
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes those are the most crucial conversations that give you the opportunity to change the direction that you were going to go down.
44:11
SPEAKER_02: Like if it wasn't for that person, I think you set an example of I had somebody pull me to the side and it's like it's not even about work.
44:18
SPEAKER_02: Like this is gonna be a detriment to your own personal life.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: You have those moments where you can kind of sit and reflect and you almost appreciate them.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: But now in in my current situation and where I'm at, I think that kind of like parenting, there's some things that you have to do that your your kids will be resentful for in the moment, but will thank you for later.
44:40
SPEAKER_02: And that's the same thing with leadership.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: There may be things that they don't understand or they don't see just yet, but eventually that learning moment or that teaching moment that they're gonna walk away with is gonna give them so much knowledge to then be able to do something more, you know, much better or more successful.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, agreed.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: Couldn't have said it better myself.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I say that to every team I've ever worked with.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, every single time.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: And all of them I end up liking.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: And all like for the majority, they all come out and we and it's great, and I'd love to be able to like everybody that you work with, but uh my question for you is have you ever had to enforce a policy you didn't agree with?
45:21
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: How's that?
45:23
SPEAKER_00: Shitty.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: I think like moral morally it's hard because you're there as a leader as a product of the company, and that's what I would think about, right?
45:33
SPEAKER_00: So my morals and my my political opinions or my religious opinions or whatever don't always mesh, and they're not gonna always mesh with the company that you work for.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: And there were times where I would have to do things or enforce policies or processes or even have conversations that wouldn't be something I would do in my personal life.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: And I I struggled with those things from the perspective of they don't feel genuine to me, and I feel like I'm um not aligned with like who I am.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: But at the same point, what I had to do is have find a way to be honest with the person about whatever the thing was that was changing or whatever the process was or whatever the conversation I had to have was.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: But you can do it in a way where it's not necessarily like this is what I believe, but here's what we have to align on, right?
46:26
SPEAKER_00: Like this is what the direction is for the company, the process, the policy, the plan.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: And while there's uh some challenges here, let's figure out how we can make it work together.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: And um, I always came at it from a relationship standpoint, from a trust standpoint, and from an honest standpoint.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: But I wouldn't necessarily say anything like I don't agree with this because then it gives room for dissension.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: And my job as again a product of the company and for the company was to be able to move people towards the cultural direction that they had.
47:00
SPEAKER_00: So good.
47:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not easy, and I like that I don't have to do it anymore.
47:04
SPEAKER_02: No, but I think you call something out that's super important, and if there's somebody else going through something similar, you kind of have to, and and you kind of help me see that too, right?
47:14
SPEAKER_02: We're here to do a job.
47:16
SPEAKER_02: So once we step in that door, we're kind of we're supposed to carry forward the values of the company or the direction of where the company's going or whatever it is that they may be.
47:25
SPEAKER_02: And behind closed doors, as a leader, you have to be that advocate of here's why I don't think this is right, or here's why this is not gonna work, or here's the impact that this decision is gonna have.
47:36
SPEAKER_02: Maybe not a direct impact on what we're trying to achieve, but an indirect impact on X, Y, and Z.
47:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and that is your responsibility, and you'll take that back on you know, whoever you need to speak to.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: But I think it is important to kind of think yourself and and remove your identity from the job, which is something that I really struggled with.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: Like I always you were not the position, you were not the job, you're not the company.
47:59
SPEAKER_02: I essentially I I think what ended up happening with me is that I treated my job the way I wish I would have been treated growing up, and that was really painful to realize because when I left, it was almost like this weird moment of silence that you process because there's no more emails coming through, there's no more, nobody's checking on you.
48:21
SPEAKER_02: No one needs you.
48:22
SPEAKER_02: No, nobody needs you, nobody's checking on you, nobody's talking to you.
48:25
SPEAKER_02: And they move on.
48:27
SPEAKER_02: The people that you thought would reach out never reach out, and that's how I was approaching leadership, and I made it such a part of my identity that when I did come face to face with those situations, I was significantly more reactive, and I was coming from an emotional place rather than removing the emotion, focusing on the fact and having more of those alignment conversations.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: Yep, I think that's such a fair point, and I think a future episode too would be talking about that connection between like the job and yourself.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: Like you are not the job.
49:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very much so.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: Have you learned more from a good boss or a bad boss on how to be a leader?
49:08
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
49:09
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I've learned a lot from from both, but I think the one that scarred me the most was my bad boss.
49:16
SPEAKER_02: Always it's always like, I'm never gonna do that.
49:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then you're like, I hope I'm like I never am in that position, or unintentionally do things to somebody that maybe they did.
49:27
SPEAKER_02: And I I really do think that not everybody, I mean, some people are out there with like bad intentions.
49:34
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
49:35
SPEAKER_02: I do think nine times out of ten, like nobody goes into work trying to have a really bad day or make somebody else's day longer.
49:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: So I think you unintentionally do that, but then man, you learn what not to do, what not to say, how not to act, all the things that you don't like, you're like, I do not want to do that.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
49:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
49:55
SPEAKER_02: All right, our last question Have you ever stayed at a job longer because of a good boss?
50:03
SPEAKER_00: I've there's multiple positions, maybe not like jobs, like like at different companies, but there's differ different positions I've had that I've stayed in way too long, like past learning and growing, so it was safe and I was comfortable, and the boss was good and I knew what to expect, but there was no challenge, and I ended up staying.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: I can remember two specifically where I was there probably two years too long each.
50:26
SPEAKER_00: Where I like my growth stagnated, but it was just safe and and I trusted who I was with.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening or watching Off the Clock and On the Rocks with Abby and Kate, and joining us for this episode around bosses and how to be a good leader.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: And hopefully, you took away something.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, so thank you so much, and cheers to next time.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: We'll see you next time.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: See you next time.