Latest / Mental Health Matters / CASEBOOK: Live Intentionally

Transcript

CASEBOOK: Live Intentionally · Mental Health Matters

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_04: Good evening and welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: Audrey Tang.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_04: My co-host is Judith Crozier, and this is the show where we tackle all things mental health and wellbeing.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: It's a lovely show tonight because we have a very special returning guest.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: You may remember Nina Hobson.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_04: She's a coach.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_04: She has lived all over the world.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_04: And when we spoke to her last, she was preparing to move to Spain.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: She has moved to Spain, and we're going to be finding out how that's been going as well as learning about how she supports women in leadership.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome back, Nina.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's really, really lovely to see you.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Judith.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm really happy to be here.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for having me.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, thanks for coming back.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_05: So we know that you've moved to Spain.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_05: How is it?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's fantastic.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very happy, very, very happy in Spain.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Although I should add, just today, I'm in the UK.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm calling from a little guest house in the UK.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Lovely.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I'll be happy to get back.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, whereabouts are you in the UK?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'll I'm just staying near my work offices.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very fortunate that they very much embrace inclusive working.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm uh not far from Nottingham in the UK, uh, being there this week, and then I'll pop back to Spain tonight.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I'm I'm very fortunate that I get a lovely balance both ways.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: This is a really British question.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: How's the weather?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's fantastic here.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Although I have to say, the last few days have been quite miserable, and I yeah, I have been missing the Spanish sunshine.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: Do you still have sun in Spain?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: Is it is it all just all year round?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the only thing, and it sounds, I mean, it's uh I'm certainly not saying it's a problem because Spanish people complain about the heat um and not and getting excited to use, you know, woolly woolly jumpers and jackets and things like that.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, we do have it's lovely sunshine throughout the year.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, as a friend from California who moved to the UK, she was very happy to have more seasons.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I like both.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna complain.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_05: It's nice though, with your job that you can travel and you can experience all weathers, really, all of the seasons.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_05: And your business is going well in Spain?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I'm very happy.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's taking some time just in terms of the bureaucracy to really feel settled emotionally.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: I feel I'm there, but in terms of logistically bureau on a bureaucratic level, there's a lot more to sort out, and it's taking longer than I imagined.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: I knew it would take a long time, but yeah, it's um it's gonna take even longer than I had envisaged.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's um it's I suppose every country has their own rules and bureaucracy, as you say, and uh just just a matter of getting through that.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I it's it's fine.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think when I first started out, you know, moving to different countries, I expected everything to be done immediately.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and the world doesn't work that way.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's exactly the same in the UK.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so my husband's from Spain, and when we've been in the UK, we've had exactly the same situation, and I think you don't one doesn't really realise until you're in that moment just how long these things can take.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: And personal situations are different for everybody.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you have one form, and then oh, actually you need another, and it can go on and on, and I think on a good day I just roll with it, and on a bad day, yeah, I find it very frustrating, I'll admit.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_04: That's honest and authentic, and that's exactly how we all feel with the bureaucracy anywhere.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly, exactly.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you've obviously moved countries a lot, so you you know roughly what you're gonna face moving to a new country, but it sounds like you face new and different challenges even in Spain.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there are always surprises, and I think there's the logistical surprises of you need this form or that form, but there's also those emotional.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: You you expect to perhaps move back to the UK and you're just going to slot back in, and that's often not the case, um, or move to a happy, sunny country, and then actually things might not be as rosy as you expected.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there are always surprises, good and bad, um, both logistically and emotionally, too.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's really nice to differentiate those two because I think it's so easy for us to think, oh well, I go there on holiday and I have a great time, but it's really different when you're on holiday compared to when you're there to work.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, a hundred percent, Audrey.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we also compare ourselves to other people and perhaps, you know, create these illusions based on social media.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we have expectations and then things don't live up, or indeed things are a lot better than we expected.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just so personal, and I think we only really know when we're in the situation for ourselves.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's really important because there is a huge difference when you are choosing to move somewhere.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_04: So, in a way, you're prepared for all of those changes, and when you're running away, you know, I just need to go somewhere different, I need to uh and take the first light out.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_04: And so what differentiates those feelings?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: How do you know when it is sort of right?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, from my own personal perspective, I think it's about agency.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: So when I feel I want to move here, this is I don't know, and not necessarily a plan, but it's about agency.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: I want, it's about choice versus I'm scared, I'm lonely, um, I feel there's no way out, um, I have to do this for financial, emotional, whatever reasons.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: So for me, yeah, it's a hundred percent about agency.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_04: And and I think it's about recognising that when you are choosing something, or when you're just taking an option that's available.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and and you began to touch on this with coming, say, coming back and slotting back in.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_04: What if you go somewhere and you find you really don't like it and this has gone now beyond the teething problems?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_04: How easy or hard can it be to repatriate?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: Especially because I think you then add the whole I'm going away, and then everyone's like, Oh, I thought you were going, you you've just got that to face as well.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think it really depends.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, on the one hand, I'd say it can be really hard, most of all, just cost-wise financially.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: It can be really tough to move back or to move to a new place, and there are a lot of hidden financial costs and yes, emotional costs as well.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: But I would add, if a situation is just so bad, you know, and we're not talking about teething problems, as you say, like you're really, really struggling, um, just move.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I've been in that situation where I felt really, really was going beyond feeling a little bit uncomfortable or with times or no, this is not for me.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: And within within 12 hours, I was at the airport on a flight, um, I was out of there.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, and I think prior to that circumstance, I'd always say, you know, give it a go, try what you know, to myself.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: But there are those circumstances where I'd say, you know, nothing is worth that amount of suffering.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, go home, go wherever you need to be.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: In my situation, then um, it was feeling very unsafe, and in the pandemic, on top of it, so there was a lot going on, um, feeling my children weren't safe and just got on a flight, and fortunately had those savings to mean that I could get on a flight immediately.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think that was wise advice.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody told me always make sure you have enough money to get home in an emergency.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um something that stuck for me.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: That is brilliant advice.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_04: That is brilliant advice.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we're keeping Nina, we'll be back just after this.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Answer this question, why do you want to change?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you want to change?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to change for yourself or for anyone else?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you want it for yourself, then you obviously you know, okay, I want to change because let's say I want to feel happier.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: What makes you happy?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: So the more you keep asking why, after every time you answer another why, another why, and you come to the answer, and it's so much deeper than what you probably would think.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's always asking yourself why do you want to make this change and who do you want to become?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you make this change, what do you think is going to happen?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And do you have it in you to make that change as you go from where you are right now to where you want to be?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be an easy journey.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have the energy in time?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because also when we jump and make these big changes and we don't follow through, it ruins self-confidence in so many ways you never think possible, and you feel a failure.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: So be realistic.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, no day is going to be the same.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes, like we have going through menopause and periods and all that stuff.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: If one day you have all the energy and developed, the next three days you're in bed crying, sulking.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to give yourself grace.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Remind yourself which phase of life and state of life you are in, and then take action accordingly.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters After Hours.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_04: We're talking to Nina Hobson, and we've been talking about moving to a different country, working in a different country, but we're also now going to focus on your work at Barefoot Coaching.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: You support women in leadership.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: And so, what are some of the common issues that women face personally as much as professionally?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, I support women and men.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very varied job.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's just, you know, one angle of the work.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, supporting women in leadership, in some ways, it's very similar to working with men, you know, a lot of the things showing up.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, imposter phenomena, self-esteem issues, confidence, or looking um for ways to navigate politics within a system.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: But I do think there are some things that are intrinsically different to women and different depending on the cultural context as well.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_04: This is the thing, because um professionally you get systemic differences as well.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_04: Even it's that unconscious bias.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's uh I don't know whether you've been watching, we've all been raving about this programme called Riot Women.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_04: This is spoiler alert.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, there is one bit where one of the officers goes to complain to her superior about on behalf of a fellow female colleague, and the way she says it's about sexual harassment in the workplace.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_04: But she describes the harassment being done to a man, a male officer.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: And immediately the superior is takes notes and is, oh my goodness, okay, that's that's awful.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: And then she said, Well, actually, it's not, it's, it's, it's this woman, and then immediately you see him change, and he's just, oh well, and he even crosses out what he's written, and that's a systemic thing, and now she challenges him, and it's it's a brilliant scene, but you sit there and you sort of think, oh, because it's a woman reporting it, it's okay.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's expected.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_04: Suddenly, if it's a man being harassed, everyone's really interested.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_04: So, how do you navigate that unconscious bias as a woman?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just becoming really aware, and I I wonder as well that that discrimination is not just from men.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: So, in that situation, for men, I've experienced that from women, and I'm sure I perpetuated that, you know, those unconscious biases myself.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: So, the more that we can just gain awareness, and I've said, like, please, you know, pick me up.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm saying something that's inappropriate, I want to learn.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think we all need to learn.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: I've had, you know, men in my life who've been incredibly supportive.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, a uh my boss, when I was working in Angola, you know, pick me up and say, hang on, this is this is not on, this is not right, and yeah, was very, very supportive, like a strong ally.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: Equally, you know, I have had women, you know, exactly the same, you know, strong allies, but also situations where I've thought, oh, hang on, that's systemic bias, that's unconscious bias perpetuated by a woman.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, when I was talking about a situation of discrimination, um, you know, a lot of people had launched into oh, how terrible he sounds like an awful person, and I corrected it's actually that he is a she.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it's just something to, I think, for us all to be mindful of, to question our bias, to slow down.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I know myself, you know, if thinking of email um coming through and you know, making assumptions based on our gender, yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm just more and more um aware.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's lots of great literature out there, um, invisible women um talking about you know uh the bias in data and just the lack of data out there.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm seeing little things with my children at school, the way that they are picking up on biases.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm noticing it more and wanting to talk about it.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I think noticing it, talking about it, and reading up are very good starters, at least.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_04: And that's a good recommendation, Invisible Women.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, just one thing that I remember from that book is about seatbelts.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: They are tested on men.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: And that's why it's more problematic for women.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, they're very uncomfortable and not as safe.
• 13:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: Which is a huge problem when you think about it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, exactly.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and there's a new book as well, Broken Rung, by um three partners at a consultancy firm, and they explore, you know, it's a more recent book and talking about discrimination and what we can do with that.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's got a very focused context, so some people might not feel that you know it's as appropriate, it's very much with from a consultancy basis, but it really did shine a light for me as well.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: So there's some great literature out there.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think reading up, just talking about it and exploring it with more and more people can be really helpful.
• 14:05
  unknown: Agreed.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, definitely.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_05: And kind of linked to that is uh you've you've worked and and lived globally.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: Um are there any cultural differences uh with the ways that uh with barriers to progression um that you've seen and experienced?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think some are quite subtle, sort of under the radar, under the iceberg.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um I know some um colleagues um previously in a in a previous life in Switzerland talking about the that that the obstacle of wanting to have children or indeed not wanting to have children, the expectations put on there in terms of work progression.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: So feeling like they have to stay at home because that is the appropriate thing to do.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure this is changing in a very westernized culture, but feeling um that that is the thing to do, that is traditionally the mother should stay at home with the children and feeling yeah, some level of pushback if that wasn't the choice that they wanted to make.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um I've yeah, recently um worked with um women from ex-communist blocs, Romania, and talking about different expectations put on them very much an expectation to work, get out there, be a leader, and I thought that was really interesting.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: So there are some sort of cultural shifts, if you like.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's changing, um, and I think it very much depends on the individual context, also the work industry.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, you know, working in the tech industry is going to look different to working in medicine or working um yeah, in different fields.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, uh a long answer for it really depends.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's a great answer.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_05: Because it is nuanced.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, and it's interesting to hear as well how things are are are changing, especially as you were talking about in the Eastern bloc where progression is is happening, which is great.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_05: Definitely.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_05: Um so if you don't feel like you fit into a culture, is it as easy as saying, well, I'll move to a different one then, I'll move to a different country?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_05: Um and also where businesses are global, you know, there's a possibility of moving within, yeah, within your company.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: I I think it's changing, but um, the return to office uh it depends on the industry and on the organisation.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: But we're seeing a lot of the return to office, those mandates, so push back against that inclusive working, which we were talking a bit about earlier, um, the need to be back, but also just based on tax reasons.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: So a lot of people telling me to be out of the office location, you know, really being tied to a country, so it's not going to be possible for you to move to whichever country purely for tax reasons.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: So there are some logistical barriers, and I think culturally, I wonder where we are in terms of inclusive working.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Some companies, you know, very strongly going down that route, like you know, where I'm working, but I'm aware we're a coaching organization.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, very much embody that coaching mindset, and you know, do what you need to do and we'll make it work.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we're quite small organization with a big impact, but I think that also makes a difference.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: We have that flexibility.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: If you're a really big organization, yeah, I understand that there may be some more logistical challenges there.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: So sometimes it's not it's not that straightforward.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's always worth asking.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, these things can work, um, but sometimes, yeah, it can be complicated.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's so important to remember tax.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_05: A friend of mine wants to carry on working for a company in the UK but move to France.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_05: But she's realised the tax implications are huge.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_05: On the other hand, a friend of mine is working for a London finance company from New Zealand.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_05: So I think it depends on your company as well, how willing they are to put things into place.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's yeah, and and and also just that ability to work online, thinking of not just time zones, but you know, I find so I come uh to the UK um regularly just to have those corridor conversations, just to get to know my colleagues.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's something that I notice more and more.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I work differently.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: When I'm working um in Spain from home, I really get you know a lot done on a very logistical transactional basis.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I plow through a lot very quickly, if you like.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: But when I'm here, I understand the work that matters and why it matters.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, I'm very fortunate I get that mix, but I understand that that's not possible for everybody based on time zones, tax.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and obviously, you know, if you're in, for example, the medical profession, um, it's not necessarily that easy to work from home.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot of different shifting factors.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think culturally as well, we're changing.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: So lots of with the advance of AI, things are changing, organisations are changing, and I think we're on the cusp of something new, so it's very uh we we're testing the new waters, as it were.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I think right now it does feel like a period of adjustment as yeah, we see where AI is going, we're waiting for the budget in the UK, although we might have already had it when the show goes out.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um so that will be a whole other conversation, but there are so many other implications right now.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, so we are keeping Nina and then we'll be back just after this.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes we put off doing things because we are afraid it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be uncomfortable.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that first gym session, if that's your thing, or that first swim session and it's cold and it's it's it's scary.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you've pushed your own boundaries.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_04: How do we begin to unlock that courage or that drive within ourselves?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's a big question.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a biggie.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so sometimes I wonder uh if I've normalized discomfort and stay with me because that might sound terrible.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: But what I mean by that is that sometimes when your experience has been that the world was built maybe not with you in mind as a neurodivergent human, that your general experience to move through the world is quite hard.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: It sometimes makes hard things easy because you're used to just a level of like, well, everything is mad challenging.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, what's like swimming the channel in the grand scheme of things?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_05: After hours, where we're talking to Nina Hobson, uh having a great discussion um this morning.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_05: Really interesting.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, really interesting.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so something else that you focus on for fulfilment um is volunteering.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_05: So, why is volunteering important and um why is it important to have that as a kind of an extra element to our working day?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think it can add so much volunteering, I think it's uh sorely undervalued.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was reading a bit uh recently about burnout and talking about misaligned burnout, the different types of burnout, including that misalignment.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: So when you feel you're working and you're not working with your values enough, and so connecting with volunteering can be a great route to really yeah, get into those values, align, realign with your values if you like, doing something that's really important to you.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I've just found it great volunteering just to meet other people, you know, particularly moving to new countries, that social network can be really important.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I've just learned so much.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, it is such a gift, like I've learned from such Incredible people, such amazing experiences.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's such a fantastic opportunity that's available to everybody out there.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I can't speak highly enough of volunteering.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's not without complications, if you like, that I'm sure we'll explore a bit more.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I couldn't value volunteering enough.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_05: That's really great, especially going to a new country, as you say, or you know, a community right there.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_05: So if you really want to volunteer um but you're say too tired, or maybe you're quite busy, yes.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_05: How how would you maybe approach volunteering then?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think two things.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: The first is that you you don't have to.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it is just that it's an option, it's you know, don't put too much on yourself.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, right, you know, I've been transitioning to a new world, new country.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't be in the right emotional space to go and volunteer, and that's perfectly okay.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: I also think there's something though about not being too big a deal.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like the word volunteering can sound almost quite um overwhelming.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and there's something I understand for some organization there's a minimum commitment, um, but that minimum really depends.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it might be a three-month project, it might be a one-off.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it really depends.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, perhaps just have a think about volunteering more lightly.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I've helped out with some a while ago with some English language tuition for Ukrainian refugees online.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh and then moving abroad, it wasn't possible anymore, just time zones and myself emotionally I had a lot to deal with.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: So it was great in that chapter, um, and I gained so much from that.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm yeah, just so grateful.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there are things that we can do, slot into that can be very, very useful at different times of our lives, and I think we can really contribute um a lot to society um by being really clear, being transparent about okay, you know, this is my availability, this is what what I want to get out of it, and this is what I can offer.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it might not be um appropriate or helpful as well to an organization.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: So just to be really clear and upfront.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_04: Good point.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's really important because that really links to what I'm gonna ask you next is what happens when some people volunteer for the right reasons, they they know they can commit that time, they want to give their skills, but other people are just there because they need a paper signed, or you know, they just uh someone told them they need yes, CV point.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, how do you manage that group cohesion?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: Because the ones who are working can see when the others are just not, and it it's a real shame.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think it can flux.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think there might be people who go in to sign a form and then actually look back and think, oof, I got a lot out of this and I contributed as well.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: But yes, I agree, and I think that's the challenge for um organisations that work with volunteers to get that level of commitment.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, I I think there's something from the organisation's perspective to be really clear about the level of commitment that they want and that they need to make this to make this a success, and as just as you say, to get that group cohesion um amongst the volunteers and with the in-house staff.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's really important.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: I think that is, and I think, and this is not actually to bash Gen Z because this is not a Gen Z thing, but it's there are organisations which take on very young people, six formers, doing their Duke of Duke of Edinburgh badges and things like that, who don't want to.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_04: This is a CV thing, but they also you've got adults who volunteer who really want to be part of it, and and yeah, it's it's a very difficult group to manage, and so I think you're right, it's about the organisation being very clear and and sticking to those guns.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um what are your top tips, Nina, for a holistically fulfilling life?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_04: So we can still be a work in progress, we can still learn, we can still grow, we're doing things that make our heart sing, but we're also paying the bills.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, I I think um for me at least, being really clear and um about you know what what brings me joy, you know, both in the short term and the long term.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you know, now working as a coach, I think mapping it out on paper, even talking it through with a friend, obviously with a coach if that's available to you, that can be really helpful just to be really intentional about yes, what brings you joy in the short and the long term.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and also thinking about relationships as well.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, a friend recently described me really lovely as a vitamin friend, and I thought that concept is lovely about these vitamin friends, vitamin people in our lives, the people that give you that, you know, that boost for the day, those people that are really important to you, and to nurture those relationships.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think sometimes, particularly moving to a new country, um, you know, we can lose those connections, but you know, we can re-spark them.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, sometimes it's a just a little text message and message to say, Oh, I was um I was thinking about you, reconnecting through a memory.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: So really nurturing those relationships, they're not lost forever, um, can be re-sparked, or indeed connecting with new people.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I suppose top tips, yes, would be being intentional about noticing what brings you joy and nurturing those relationships as well.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, lovely so far, absolutely.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: And intentional is a word that's come up on this show a lot recently, and I think that's very, very important because we're coming to the end of the year now.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_04: 2025 is nearly done, and maybe it's time to think about going into 2026 more intentionally, which would be exciting, and that means thinking about our values.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_04: Nina, thank you so much.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_04: Where can we follow you, learn more about you, connect with you?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm I'm not on social media, but apart from I am on uh LinkedIn and um I'm working, as I say, at Barefoot Coaching now, so very, very happy to connect there.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: Amazing.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: Nina, thank you so much.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_04: We'll head over to Test the Trend.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_04: So for Test the Trend, if you want to volunteer, it's a really great way to boost your well-being.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: You get out, you meet like-minded people, and you support a cause that's meaningful to you.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: But there is a little bit of research you might want to think about first.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: And this comes from the website Rostify.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_04: Ask yourself some or some questions about the organization's role.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: What is the organization's mission and goals?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_04: Do they align with yours?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_04: What are the changes or needs that that organization have?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_04: And how does that particular organization you want to join make a difference compared to others who do similar work?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: And then think about the volunteer experience.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: What tasks or duties might you want to be performing and what is available for you?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: What time commitment is there?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: Now don't worry too much about this because some places will say, oh, just help for events, or maybe they want you to commit an hour a week.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_04: Discuss that with them and you'll be able to go from there.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_04: What are the challenges that volunteers typically face and how are they addressed?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_04: But also think about what you can contribute.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: How do your skills specifically make a difference?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_04: Because you might be able to offer something that your organization doesn't even know it needs.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then finally, think about being ethical and how ethical the organization is.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_04: And ask yourself, well, what steps are taken to ensure volunteers are doing good?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_04: Is there safeguarding in place?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_04: And are there protections for you when you do your role there?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_04: Try those things, think them through, reflect on them, and give it a go because it's a great way to feel great.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: I often talk about the importance of having a purpose, the importance of knowing the impact that you want to make, of finding the people to work with you to achieve your objectives and your goals.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: All of those things are important.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know about you.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you might find that you're doing everything that you can to make things work, to achieve your objective, but it's not working.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: At those times, it's important to pause.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: To pause, to review what you're doing, and to understand the steps.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why isn't it working?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is it something that I am doing?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is it something that my team members are doing?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the pro I mean the processes, the structure?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: What isn't working?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Are there external factors that have changed the economic climate, what competitors are doing?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Was it that what you're doing was in line with a trend, but the trend has changed?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: At such points in time you need to pause, review, pivot, to make changes.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: It could be on a temporary basis that we're just going to do one this this one thing different at this point in time, but then we're going to go back at a later stage.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: But it's important to that purpose, to the vision, to the goals, to the ultimate impact that you want to have, that from time to time you take the time to review, which is why it's good to understand the processes and what and how you do things to be able to stay up to date with what's going on externally, so that you can see what's going wrong and you can pause and make those changes.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't, you might find that you you you fail not because you're not good and not because you're capable or because you've done something wrong, but it's just things weren't aligning to enable things to work.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're talking about our health, our well-being, being our best self, that's not beneficial to you.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it won't also be beneficial to the people you work with or the people you're trying to serve.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's always so joyful talking with Nina, isn't it?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_05: She's so lovely and um just warm and really, really, really nice.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: And and I know in so many places she'd be described as brave.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_04: Brave for going.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: She really gets what it is to just live holistically and live.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_04: And when I say live holistically, it does mean looking at the boring stuff, the admin, the tax, the passports.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like that is part of it.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: But when you've done that, you get the joy of everything that she's she's experiencing, which is brilliant.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_05: I know, I mean, her life must must have been and must still be really exciting.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and fascinating as well because you're meeting so many different people, so many different cultures, and it's absolutely wonderful.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_05: And she just immerses herself into all of them whilst doing all the, like you say, all the boring things, you know, the the bureaucracy which you've got to do.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_05: Which you have to do.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_05: But but how lovely to to then be able to experience, especially at the moment, the sunshine.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yes, absolutely.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yes at all.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry, it was such a British question, wasn't it?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um now she brought up some really interesting points.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_04: One of them was um women making unconscious bias assumptions, yeah, and that does happen.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_04: That has happened um to a colleague of mine.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_04: She went to HR with a problem, and HR pretty much said, Oh, well, we've all been through that, get over it.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_05: No, and it's you can't and and this is female HR.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_05: Whoa.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_05: That that's that's really disappointing.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_05: It's disappointing, isn't it?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_05: Because if they have been through it, then they should know better and not propagate it.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, exactly.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_05: They're kind of enabling it if that if that's how they think they think that those type of issues should be handled.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the other thing she mentioned is um values, which I thought was really interesting.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_04: So being intentional, sort of knowing what your values are.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_04: What are your thoughts on values?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I it's interesting because when Nina was talking about values, I was thinking that makes absolute perfect sense.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_05: You list your values and then you do things that fulfil those values, and I'd never thought of it so simplistically.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_05: Um I mean, I have, you know, we've we've talked about values before, and you know minor kind of honesty and determination, and yeah.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_05: So I was thinking while Nina was talking, how would I live to those values?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_05: I think it would, I don't know, I'd have to give that some thought.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_05: Because but I think that's the key.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_05: That is the key.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, to living a happy, holistic life.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: That's what Martin Seligman says, because he does this thing called values in action.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a questionnaire.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_04: So if you if you want to do it or if anyone out there wants to do it, it's free.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: You'd go to the University of Pennsylvania and you sign, you look for their questionnaires.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_04: So it's just go for values in action questionnaire, University of Pennsylvania.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_04: Google that, you'll find that.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_04: And you have to sign up to the university because they use your data in order to do their own research.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_04: But they don't spam you, so literally you just sign up and that's that's all you do.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_04: And go to the values in action questionnaire, it's character strengths, so it might be called values in action character strengths.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: There are two questionnaires, one is the long one, so you've got to take 20 minutes, and it is 20 minutes, um, or you can do the short one.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_04: And the short one is only, you know, five minutes, it's much faster, but the in-depth is not quite as much.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_04: And it comes up with there's 25 different values.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_04: I I think it's 25, might be 24, and your top five are the ones that you connect with the most, and they might be for me, I've done it, I do it every year, and um love of learning, curiosity, zest, and joy, you know, they they're sort of my top three.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_04: It's quite near the bottom, is things like bravery and um and perseverance and things like that.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and what's really interesting is you then think about how you actually utilise them.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_04: And one thing I realized was whilst bravery is really low down the bottom, I actually use uh zest and positivity to get round when I want to be brave at something.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_04: So sometimes rather than challenging something, I might go, I'm really sorry to bother you, but this has happened.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you just kind of go down a softer route.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_04: So it's not that I'm not brave, it's just I prefer to use the other skills.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, strength.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_04: Strengths, not skills.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but that's a really interesting way of finding out your values.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it also gives you what they look like in action.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_04: But another thing that's quite interesting that I was playing around with ChatGPT after our chat with um Thor, and there I asked Chat GPT to tell me what are some values that are not your basic gratitude, and you know.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_04: And ChatGPT came up with uh something like what one of the examples was stewardship, and then it went on to say, well, stewardship is leaving the world in a better place than when you came into it.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I just thought, well, that that's lovely because it's telling me what the actual thing is I'm doing.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I love that I connect with that.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_05: So that's the use of Chat GPT.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_05: You do do that in your you know, your parenting work and your dance and everything, and and this, but yeah, I try to, try to, we try to, we we try, yeah, but um that's just another way of doing values.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: I love that.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna do that questionnaire.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_04: Just ask, yeah, ask Chat GPT and do the questionnaire, it's great, yeah, it's brilliant.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and there was something else you mentioned as well.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, you know when it's not right for you, that feeling.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_04: Do you two get that feeling?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_05: Um, yes, and I am one that will go, um this isn't for me.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'm off.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_05: So I think there's two different ways of looking at it.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_05: One is is it just too new, or could I get used to it?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_05: Do I just need to try?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_05: The other is this is never ever ever going to work.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_05: Um and if I can bring some pop culture into it, watching Married at First Sight, so MAPS UK at the moment, and um there's quite a lot of that that comes up because people are matched.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, if you haven't seen it, people are matched with people they've never met before.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_05: They get married literally at first sight, and some people uh look at their husband or their wife at the end of the aisle and go, This is never gonna work, and then they end up being the strongest ones sometimes, but then sometimes you you just think no, no, you just have to just go, just leave, because it's never gonna work.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_05: So it's it's an interesting question.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_04: Because that one, um, I there's a little exercise that I teach, it's a mindfulness exercise where you think of different emotions and you feel in your body where you feel them.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_04: So I go through the basics, and maybe we just do this.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think we've got a little bit of time in today's show.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_04: You can do this with me.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so think of I don't want to keep you in a in a negative place, but think of a sad experience.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_04: Just anything that's sad or makes you feel sad, and where whereabouts do you feel that?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_04: Here.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_04: Here, yeah, okay.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_04: We'll all feel it in different places.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_04: So some people feel it in the head, some people in their heart, in their chest, in their stomach.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_04: So, okay, anger.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_04: So an angry experience.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, tight.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, joy.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_05: Just uh um what's it called?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_05: Just uh just everywhere.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um like a big hug.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, where you get I can't think what it's called.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_05: You just feel a warm and goosebumps.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, lovely, lovely.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_05: Kind of top half, yeah.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_04: And confidence, you know, when you've just gone, yeah, that's it, I'm doing that, and and you've done it.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_05: I think weirdly in my spine, because it makes you kind of straighter.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_04: Use that.
• 40:45
  unknown: Okay.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_04: So when you're unsure of something, where are you feeling it?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you're thinking you're asking yourself the question, do I want to do this or not?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_04: Or is it do I just need to get over myself?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_04: Or do I not really not want to do it?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_04: If you really don't want to do it, you're gonna feel it in your spine.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_04: You're gonna feel it in that no, I'm not happening.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: That's not me.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_05: That's really interesting.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_04: Because I feel it here when I'm confident in something, I feel it here.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_04: I can wake up one day and go, yeah, I'm doing that.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, it's it's it's weird, and I and then I do it.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so if I'm shopping and I'm walking around the shop with stuff and I haven't gone to the cash desk and gone, right, I'm buying this now, I don't want it.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_04: That's a really good point, isn't it?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, you just have to take it back, and I will guarantee you I will take it back if I've just been you know.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_05: That's yeah, that's that's really simple.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_05: Really simple.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_05: Simple but effective way of kind of knowing.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_05: Connecting with that, yeah.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_04: So give that a go.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_04: Let us know in the comments how you get on, and have a good night.