Latest / Pod Save America / JD Vance Defends Hitler-Loving Racists

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JD Vance Defends Hitler-Loving Racists · Pod Save America

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  Speaker 1: or going to cookunity.com slash crookedfree. Welcome to Pod Save America.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: I'm Jon Favreau.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: On today's show, we're going to talk about the group
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: chat where young Republican leaders talked about loving Hitler and slavery.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Some big moves in Senate primary races, including Maine. The
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: bad vibes from the Supreme Court on the Voting Rights
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Act and what it means for control of Congress. And
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: why you need to get out there to a No
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Kings protest on Saturday. You'll also hear Tommy's conversation with
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: our friend Brian Schatz about the shutdown and all the
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: latest news. But let's start with what our aspiring American
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: dictator has been up to. Trump has ordered the federal
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: government's vast army of prosecutors and FBI agents to prioritize
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: charging and arresting Americans who have criticized the president, even
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: if there's insufficient evidence that they've committed a crime. Trump's
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: regime has already brought charges against Jim Comey and Letitia James.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: John Bolton might be indicted by the time you hear this.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Trump's IRS has reportedly drawn up a list of left-leaning
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: groups and major Democratic donors. they're preparing to launch criminal
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: investigations into. We'll get to that in a bit. And
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: not only is the White House not denying any of this,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: the president is advertising it from the Oval Office. Here
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: he is on Wednesday, flanked by the attorney general and
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: the FBI director.
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: Deranged Jack Smith, in my opinion, is a criminal. And
• 3:31
  Speaker 5: I noticed his interviewer was, I think that was Weissman.
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: And I hope they're going to look into Weissman too.
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: Weissman's a bad guy. I hope they're looking at Shifty Schiff.
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: I hope they're looking at all these people.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Getting into Pod Save America guests now, Dan. Adam Schiff,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Andrew Weissman. So one of the many concerns I have
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: about all this is the announcement of each new indictment
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: or investigation like generates less coverage and outrage and shock
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: than the last. And then pretty soon, you know, we
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: become numb to all of it. What do you think?
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: I share that exact same concern.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 4: There was huge outrage when Jim Cummings was indicted. There
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: was anger when Letitia James was indicted. There will be
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: a minor furor when John Bolton's indicted. And by the
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: time we get to the point where Kash Patel and
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: Stephen Miller show up to the floor of the Senate
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: to arrest Adam Schiff, it'll be a blip on the radar.
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: This is what Trump has done. It's what he does
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: incredibly well. He takes the extraordinary, the dangerous, the abnormal,
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: and just makes it feel like a part of our politics.
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: He wears down the body politic and just changes the
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: way American life has done. And he has done that
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: on so many issues in so many ways over the
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: last nine months that it's hard to imagine where we'll
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: be three and a half years from now at this rate.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
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  Speaker 1: And I think if you were just a regular American
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: watching all this, you think to yourself, well, I'm not
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Jim Comey. I'm not Adam Schiff. I'm not John Bolton.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not a prominent Democrat. I'm not an official. I
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: wasn't on a legal team that investigated Donald Trump. And
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: you might think to yourself, you know, these cases are bullshit.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Jim Comey and Letitia James, those cases seem like they
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: may get thrown out even if they go to trial.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: It seems highly unlikely they're going to get a jury.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: And so you might think that that's like comforting in
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: some ways. But again, those people are going to go
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: through hell and they can afford lawyers. And once you
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: start getting down the list, right, to people who are
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: prominent but less prominent, And then what's stopping Trump and
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: the Justice Department from saying, oh, some random person who
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: criticized us that we don't like, we're going to find
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  Speaker 1: some dirt on that. It doesn't stop with the people
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: who were responsible for investigating Donald Trump over the last
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  Speaker 1: several years by any means. He's just going to keep going.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Why wouldn't he? What would stop him?
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: If you are someone who, we're not far away from
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: it being someone who organizes in their community to protest Trump.
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: to push back on ICE, right? The people who are
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: running these Facebook or WhatsApp group chats that are helping
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: people in communities know what ICE is doing, right? Like
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  Speaker 4: anyone and everyone is on the table when your belief
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  Speaker 4: is that anyone who opposes the president is dangerous and un-American.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the IRS story. So the Wall
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: Street Journal reports that Trump is getting ready to install
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: loyalists at the IRS's Criminal Investigative Division, which has more
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: than 2,000 agents. These are the people who carry guns.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: And he's doing this to get past, reportedly, all the
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  Speaker 1: IRS lawyers who've been pushing back on investigations into Trump's
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  Speaker 1: critics because they would be illegal, vindictive prosecutions. Scott Besant
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  Speaker 1: is already the acting IRS commissioner.
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  Speaker 3: He's on board.
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  Speaker 1: And they want Gary Shapley to run the criminal division.
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  Speaker 1: He's a loyalist. And he's reportedly already drawn up a
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: list of left-leaning groups. They want to bankrupt him. by
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: putting them through these very long and invasive investigations, as
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: well as individual major Democratic donors they want to put
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: through the hell of a criminal investigation. This seems like
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: a huge fucking deal, incredibly dangerous. I feel like with
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: everything else going on, it's being treated as just another
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: crazy story. What's your level of concern on this one?
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: That basically Trump's second term is a Watergate every single day.
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: This is exactly what was at the core of Watergate.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 4: Nixon drew up an enemies list. He took it to
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  Speaker 4: the IRS. He badgered the IRS to go after people,
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: his political opponents, including left-leaning organizations like the Brookings Institute
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: at the time. When the IRS pushed back, he installed
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: a special task force of the IRS to do exactly this,
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: to go after his enemies. It is one of the
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: things that became, well, it wasn't as big a deal
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: as the break-in. It was one of the core charges
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: of abuse of power that would have led to his
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: impeachment had he not resigned. And Trump is just doing it.
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: And the difference between what Trump does and what Nixon
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: did is Nixon did it quietly. And it had to
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: be ferreted out by Woodward and Bernstein and other reporters.
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  Speaker 4: And Trump is standing up there just announcing these things
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  Speaker 4: for the world to see. But it's the same thing.
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  Speaker 4: It's the same abuse of power. It's the same assault
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: on democracy. It's the same assault on the rule of law.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: But it is what he is doing. I mean, it's
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: incredibly dangerous, right? And this is even more, it's easier
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: to weaponize this against more people than building a criminal
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: case taking it to a jury indictment. You're now just
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: like reading through people's finances, looking for something to go after,
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: making them, getting them audited, doing all these things to
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  Speaker 4: prolong the pain and send a message that is if
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: you criticize the state, if you question the king, then
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: you will pay a price.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: And it's worse in another way too. Like this would
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: be bad and illegal if the IRS was simply targeting
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  Speaker 1: the president's critics and people the president doesn't like For
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: an audit or an investigation, they're trying to go a
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: step further and saying, OK, in order to take away
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: a group's tax exempt status, which for many groups would
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: bankrupt them in order to do that, you have to
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: have an investigation. The investigation goes on for a long
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: time and maybe it's unpleasant for the group. But like
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: at the end of the investigation, you don't lose your
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: tax exempt status unless they actually find something wrong. They
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: are trying to change this so they skip the whole
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: very long investigation part and just are able to take
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: away the tax exempt status much more easily. And they're
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: also sort of shifting the balance of power in the
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: IRS so that all the people in the IRS who
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: are lawyers, who are accountants, whose job it is to
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  Speaker 1: collect taxes and stuff like that are overpowered by the
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: criminal division, which again are the agents with the guns.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: And then you've got Scott Besson also talking about, he's
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: like comparing the hunt for, you know, terrorist financing, which
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: is like left-leaning groups that they're calling Antifa that might
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: find it something. They're comparing it with going after Al-Qaeda's networks,
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  Speaker 1: financing networks after 9-11 on the Charlie Kirk show this week.
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  Speaker 4: It's like, do you think he believes that?
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Like Scott Besson is supposed to
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: be Like, oh, yeah, he brought people comfort, some comfort,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: because it was like, well, this guy, you know, he's
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: not as crazy as, like, a Stephen Miller or these
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: kind of persons. But, like, I don't know what the
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: fuck's happened to Scott Besson. I mean, I don't think
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: he believes that.
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: He's trying to fight people left and right.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's part of it, I guess. That's
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: part of it. Again, I mean, I'm a broken record
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: on this, but don't think I would fund a government
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: and hand my tax dollars or anyone's tax dollars to
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: this IRS so they could do this. Doesn't seem like
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: a good use of money. Doesn't seem like something that
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: I would want to sign off on. Just saying. Just saying.
• 10:54
  Speaker 6: All right.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Let's lighten things up with a headline from Politico that's
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: become the viral story of the week. Quote, I love Hitler.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Leaked messages expose young Republicans' racist chat. Wow. Shocking headline, right?
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe the story's not as bad. Maybe that's just some clickbait.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: So the group chat in question. includes a dozen young
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Republican leaders from New York, Kansas, Arizona, and Vermont, state
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: party officials, government employees, even a state senator. In the messages,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: these Republican leaders joke, put that in quotations, about sending
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: their opponents to gas chambers and loving Hitler, like we
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: heard in the title. They refer to black people as monkeys,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: rape as epic, and slavery as based. There were jokes
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: about people with Indian heritage not bathing, about how you
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: shouldn't get on a plane flown by a non-white pilot,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: and there were slurs, tons and tons and tons of slurs,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: directed towards almost every minority, in addition to black people, Hispanics, Chinese, Jews,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: gay people. Some of the Republican officials in the chat
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: have apologized. Some have lost their positions in the party.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: And a few Republican leaders who weren't in the chat
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: condemned the chat. But one very prominent Republican chose to
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: go in another direction. The vice president of the United States,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: without being asked, just decided to weigh in on the
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: controversy with a tweet where he dismissed the criticism as, quote,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: pearl clutching over, quote, a college group chat. Not a
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: college group chat. These people were not in college. He
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: was later asked about his tweet. And here's what Vance said.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Grow up.
• 12:40
  Speaker 7: I'm sorry. Focus on the real issues. Don't focus on
• 12:43
  Speaker 7: what kids say in group chats. The reality is that
• 12:45
  Speaker 7: kids do stupid things, especially young boys. They tell edgy,
• 12:50
  Speaker 7: offensive jokes like that's what kids do. And I really
• 12:53
  Speaker 7: don't want us to grow up in a country where
• 12:55
  Speaker 7: a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive
• 12:59
  Speaker 7: stupid joke is caused to ruin their lives. And at
• 13:02
  Speaker 7: some point, we're all going to have to say enough
• 13:05
  Speaker 7: of this B.S.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Just to put an exclamation point on this entire episode,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: the day after the story ran, Politico broke another story
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: about an image they obtained from the office of Ohio
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Republican Congressman Dave Taylor in which one of his staffers
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: has an American flag that's been altered to include a
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: swastika pinned on his cubicle. Capitol Police are investigating that one. Dan,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: thoughts on all the pearl clutching that's going on here?
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: Well, let's start with J.D.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: Vance.
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: Because it's hard to think of a more pedantic, less interesting,
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: more morally vacuous response to these sort of outrageous, hateful
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: comments than to say, than to adopt the approach that
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: everything my side does is fine, everything your side does
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: is wrong. It's like he just lacks any thoughtfulness in
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: any way, shape, or form. It would have been so
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: easy to say what was in this was wrong, and
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: also what Democrats have said, like Attorney General Jay Jones
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: of Virginia, was wrong. You could say both things are wrong.
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: That's a very viable thing.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I think both things are wrong.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, they're both wrong.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I think Jay Jones' texts are horrific.
• 14:17
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Crazy.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: It's not that hard to do it. It's not that
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: hard to do it, but he's so simple-minded in his
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: pursuit of approbation from the MAGA set. It's because he
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: knows that he himself- is full of shit, right?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: J.D.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: Vance of six years ago would have trashed this, right?
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: But he knows that he once was a traitor to
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: the cause by calling Trump Hitler. And so he has
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: to bend so far in the other direction to try
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: to prove his maga bona fides. And it's just so,
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: it's lame. It's just so lame. Everything about him is
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: so lame.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: What a journey.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: What a journey.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Goes from calling Trump Hitler to working for Trump And
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: defending people who say they love Hitler. Yeah. That's a
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: real journey. Like all the whataboutism and hypocrisy and all
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: that shit aside, I'm just trying to get into the
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: mind of a human being like J.D. Vance. You see
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: these texts. You see this story. You're not asked about it.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: He was asked about it there after he tweeted about it.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: So no one has asked J.D. Vance about it. And
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: you're the vice president of the United States. he does
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: tweet a lot for, for being a vice president. Um,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: but he still has other things to do. He's not
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: tweeting like 20 times a day and he sees this
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: story and he's like, you know what? I think I
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: need to weigh on in this story. And instead of
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: even making it like we could have had a disagreement
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: with him and we would have if we, if he
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: made this like, okay, this was bad. This is horrible.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: They should not have said this, but I don't think
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: they should lose their jobs.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: And then we have like a, another cancel culture debate,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: and he could, you know, that's his fucking hobby horse,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: and we could talk about that, whatever. Didn't even go there.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Didn't even say, he has not said it was bad.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: He has not condemned the fucking tweets. He has gone
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: right to like, these kids shouldn't have their lives ruined.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Never condemned it. Someone saying Hitler. And then also trying
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: to fucking say that these are kids, and he just
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: keeps trying to say that, like, oh, they're kids, they're kids,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: they're kids. They're in their mid-30s. One of the people
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: in questions is like a year younger than J.D.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: Vance. Yes.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: There is something in online MAGA alt-right world where you
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: get points for defending the indefensible. If you will go
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: where no one else will go, right, then you somehow
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: get points of loyalty to the cause, whatever it is.
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: And so he just jumped right on it and did it.
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: But he did it without thinking. He just like, how
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: can this make, give me some fanboys? And it's just,
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: You just have to have so low regard for your
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: own position in the world to think that's the right
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: thing to do. Like you're the vice president of the
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: United States. You could have influence. You could be a
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: moral leader in some way, shape, or form. But it
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: never even occurs to him to do the right thing.
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: Not for one second.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I will say beyond the J.D. Vance of it all,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: just reading those texts, it's pretty scary. My first reaction
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: was not just like outrage. I can't believe these people.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: It's like, oh, fuck.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: This is the future of the Republican party. Like these
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: people are in positions of authority and that's one group
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: chat of 12 people. And I think we have seen
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: as you get younger in MAGA world these days, then
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: you're actually more extreme, uh, not less extreme. And the
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: idea that we had, you know, well before 2024 and
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: maybe before 2020 that, uh, as the younger generations grew up,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: then maybe it was the boomers who Trump was getting
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: in 2016. And I guess that's true. And that, you know, as, as,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: as the younger generations come of age and vote more
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: than maybe, maybe MAGA will sort of disappear. But this
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: is like a, these, these kids are making like Trump
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: look moderate. Kids, not kids.
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: All they know of politics, let's say they just happen
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: to be conservative leaning, grew up in Republican households, Republican
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: parts of the country. If you are in your 20s,
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: or even if you're 30, all you know of politics
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: in your party is Donald Trump. You remember nothing else.
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: And you probably think of, because of the way the
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: online conversation has been shaped, that everyone else is a
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: traitor to the cause, or a rhino, or whatever else.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: And that Trump is, like, I mean, there was that
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: very infamous Hillary Clinton ad in 2016 about the kids
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: watching Donald Trump. That was a bad political argument.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: It was a bad ad.
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: But there is something to be, like, There is a
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: right point there, which is like the president and political
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: leaders have influence on the American people. And what they
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: define as acceptable conduct takes hold. And he's not like
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: Trump and now Vance are not modeling good behavior for anyone.
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: They're saying you can say or do whatever you want.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: And the more outrageous, the more offensive, the better, right?
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: That anyone trying to stop you from saying anything is wrong.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: And so- Like this is how you end up with
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: people like this. And these people are positions of power
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: and they will positions of power going forward. And there's
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: a lot of people like them.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: And it's also incredible how just bold and brazen they are.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: This is not like someone who got caught on a
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: private chat with their friends and they said some awful, horrendous,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: offensive things on a small chat. This is like 12
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: people who were colleagues essentially, right? Like these are people
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: that you work with that really you probably don't know
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: super well because they're all from, they're Republican leaders from
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: different States. The fucking guy in the, uh, Capitol Hill
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: office and the house office that has the fucking swastika
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: behind him.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: What?
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Like that's, that's, that's on video. That's a picture. What,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: what are you doing? It's in your, it's in an office,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: a public office. This is not like something that's happening
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: underground where people are telling jokes. All right. Because I
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: know you can read it and be like, oh, they
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: were offensive jokes, but maybe it was jokes. It's not
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: really a joke. And it's especially not a joke when
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: you're telling it on a group chat with a bunch
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: of colleagues about how much you want to send your
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: opponents to the fucking gas chamber, hope they kill themselves.
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: Group chat is the technically correct term for this, but
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: it makes it really sound like a bunch of college buddies.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Shooting the shit.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: Which is intentional.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: And that's not what this is.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: If it was a Slack channel, right? Or they said
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: it in a meeting, it would be treated very differently.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: But that's functionally what it is in 2025.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: In case anyone's still wondering where this is all going,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to read the headline and opening paragraph
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: of this story from Wednesday's New York Times. Quote, Trump
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: considers overhaul of refugee system that would favor white people.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: The story starts, quote, the Trump administration is considering a
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: radical overhaul of the U.S. refugee system that would slash
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: the program to its bare bones while giving preference to
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: English speakers, white South Africans, and Europeans who oppose migration. Oh,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and the same day, the Department of Homeland Security tweeted
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: the single word, remigrate. What does that mean, you may ask?
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Here's Wikipedia, quote, remigration. is an originally European far-right proposal
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: of ethnic cleansing via the mass deportation of non-white immigrants
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: and their descendants, sometimes including those born in Europe with
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: local citizenship to their place of racial ancestry. So, you know,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: whatever you do, Dan, do not compare these people to
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Nazis or fascists. It's simply a government trying to keep
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: out non-white immigrants and encourage those non-white immigrants who are
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: already here or who are perhaps descendants of non-white immigrants,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: to leave, to just go somewhere else. That's all, right?
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: This has been a dark pod so far, I'd say.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: And it may get darker yet. But before we get
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: to future darkness, I do want to say that these
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: people may have power right now. And they will have
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: power for a while now, right? For another couple of years.
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: And so they get to implement these policies. But no
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: one should one second believe they are winning the argument
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: or that the country is moving in this direction. Stephen Miller,
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: the people in this group chat, the House staffer with
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: the swastika, they are a minority. They're a minority of
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: the country. They're a minority of their own party. Much
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: of what they believe is an anathema to most of
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: the American people. Has it manifested itself yet in political outcomes?
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: But there has been a severe backlash to this approach
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: to immigration, to pluralism in this country, right? Gallup has
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: been tracking the question of whether immigration is a good
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: thing or a bad thing. The question of whether immigration
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: is a good thing hit its highest level in June
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: of 2025. 79% of Americans believe immigration is a good
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: thing for the country. And that is happening while they're
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: tweeting remigrate, the mass ICE agents are storming the country,
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: they are the most powerful people in this country are
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: making an argument that immigration is bad. They are losing
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: that argument. So if a day comes, and I believe
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: it will come when Democrats have power again, the political
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: environment has been created to pass real immigration reform in
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: this country. Yes, it'll be tough on the border. Yes,
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: it'll deal with gang members and drug dealers and criminals
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: in this country, but will include a path to citizenship
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: for people who've been here for a long time, paying taxes,
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: working hard in their community, And it's because of Stephen
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: Miller and J.D. Vance and these other people. They are
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: losing the argument. They are a small minority of the country.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: They just have a disproportionate amount of power. The country
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: is not moving in this direction politically. It just happens
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: to be that this small minority has power at this moment.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I love your optimism. I love, I agree with everything
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: you just said and the data that you cited. I
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: am wondering why the generic ballot in the midterms is
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: so narrow. Why Spanberger in Virginia is only up by
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: a few points. Mikey Sherrill's only up by a few points.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: I guess I can tell myself a story that these
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: races are about individual candidates and these are not a
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: referendum on, you know, Donald Trump's immigration policy or to
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: the extent that people understand Donald Trump's immigration policy. They
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: think It's about keeping the border strong and secure, which
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: they agree with. It is about deporting undocumented immigrants who
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: are here illegally, which, unfortunately, most Americans agree with, a
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: slight majority agrees with, even though they, like you said,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: in Gallup, favor immigration as a whole. So I guess
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I could tell myself that story. But I don't know.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: When the Department of Homeland Security is talking about, is
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: using a word that means ethnic cleansing, came from the
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: far right in Europe, And everyone's just like, all right, well,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: it could be a close race in Virginia, New Jersey.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Who knows?
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: I heard you and Ezra Klein talk about this on
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: his podcast on Saturday. Saw that pop up in my feed.
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: I knew you were doing the interview. I put in
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: my headphones. I went for a hike. And near the
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: top of the hill, I heard you get into this
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: exact question. And I stopped and I screamed into the void.
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: Because I think the answer is very clear as to
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: why the generic ballot is what it is, why Virginia
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: is close, why New Jersey is close. And it is
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: that right now at this time, the Democratic Party's approval
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: rating is in the toilet. They don't like what Trump
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: is doing. They don't like what Republicans are doing, but
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: they don't trust us. You can see this in YouGov
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: data where they compare it. We see a lot of
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: how people approve of how Trump's handling of things. YouGov
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: a couple of weeks ago asked, who do you trust
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: more on issues, Democrats or Republicans? And Republicans are winning
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: on almost every issue other than healthcare and climate change.
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: And so we are like people want an alternative. We
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: have not given them a viable alternative yet. That is
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: incumbent upon us. That's the difference between a two or
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: three point generic ballot and a seven point generic ballot
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: like we saw in 2018 when the Democratic Party approval
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: rating was much higher than the Republicans. Do you think
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: in 2018- And then we can get, there are specific
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: reasons in New Jersey in particular why that race may
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: be closer than we think it should be. But that
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: I think goes to the broader question of if Trump
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: is so unpopular, if he's doing so many horrible things,
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: if people disagree with the direction the country's going in,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: Why are they not flocking to Democrats? It's because we
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: haven't given the reason to flock to us yet.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Do you think we gave people more of a reason
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: in 2018? Or do you think the party wasn't as
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: unpopular as it was?
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: The party was much more popular in 2018. We were
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: more popular than Republicans. And so we were, if you're
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: looking for an alternative, we were a viable alternative, even
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: for people who would turn around and vote for Trump
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: in 2020 because they wanted to check on power. Right now,
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: people don't know what we stand for. They don't think
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: we are strong enough. to implement what we stand for.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: And until that changes, we could still win the House,
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: but we'll be squeaking it out as opposed to something
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: akin to a 2018 blue wave.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, and before we move on, just a reminder as
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: to who the brains behind this operation is. There was
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: a very revealing comment from Donald Trump in the Oval
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Office this week.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: Let's listen.
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: But I want to thank Stephen Miller, who's right back
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: in the audience right there. I'd love to have him.
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: I love watching him on television. I'd love to have
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: him come up and explain his true feelings. Maybe not
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: his truest feelings. That might be going a little bit
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: too far.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: There he is.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Moderating force Donald Trump. This is part of my theory
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: that in the first Trump term, it was the Committee
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: to Save America. It was all this moderating force around
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: him trying to stop him from being crazy. In the
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: second Trump term, he's the moderating force and everyone else
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: is fucking crazier than him. And I don't think he's
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: a moderating... I'm talking relatively speaking and I think it's true.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: I think we owe an apology to the Committee to
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: Save America.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: No, they should have. I wish they were there. I
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: wish they were there right now. Mattis, was it? Who
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: was the Goldman guy?
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: Gary Cohn.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Gary Cohn, yeah. He was the saner Scott Besant.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Dina Powell. Sorry, Dina Powell. Yeah, no. Would have liked
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of the NSC.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: John Bolton.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Would have liked a lot of the NSC back there
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: right now, for sure. National Security Council. Not these fucking kooks. Yeah,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: so Stephen Miller. Even Donald Trump. Even Donald Trump. Little
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: afraid of Stephen Miller, who is, by all accounts, running
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Homeland Security, the Pentagon.
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: Department of Justice.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: All these fucking moron cabinet officials who are just there
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: for their face on television. And because they can read
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: talking points and have looked good on TV. They're not
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: doing anything at their departments. They are reporting, essentially, to
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Stephen Miller, who is running everything. And he is... As
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: white nationalist as they come?
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: Don't believe us. Believe the implication of what Donald Trump
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: just said.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, Trump has said it before. There was reports
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: that Trump has said it before. I think Maggie Haberman
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: has written this in the New York Times, reported this,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: that at one point Donald Trump was like, oh, no
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: one hates immigrants as much as Stephen Miller. That's not
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: the exact quote, but it's very close to that, actually.
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 29:27
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• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Now, despite all of the fascist or at least fascist
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: adjacent rhetoric and behavior coming from the White House and
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: some Republican leaders, Trump still desperately wants to be known
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: as the president of peace. He is the peace president.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: He's getting some help on this from Speaker Mike Johnson,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: who announced on Tuesday that he's leading a coordinated campaign
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: to get parliamentary leaders from around the globe to join
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: him in nominating Trump for next year's Nobel Peace Prize.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: There's always next year, Dan. And the reason he wants
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: to do this is because, quote, no one has ever
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: deserved that prize more. And that is an objective fact.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: It's an objective fact. Did you know that it was
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: an objective fact?
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah. No.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Fuck Gandhi.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: More than Gandhi.
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah. No.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: King, Gandhi.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: How many bombings did Gandhi do?
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Come on. To prove the speaker's point, Trump posted a
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: video just hours later that showed the U.S. military executing
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: people by blowing up another boat that the Trump administration
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: has claimed, without evidence, was smuggling drugs from Venezuela. Later,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Trump confirmed to reporters that he has authorized covert CIA
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: operations inside Venezuela, which sort of breaks the first rule
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: of covert operations. Not really covert, if the president's confirming
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: it in the fucking Oval Office, Dan. Trump said, quote,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: we're certainly looking at land now because we've got the
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: sea under control. He also pointedly declined to say whether
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: he'd authorized the CIA to take out President Nicolas Maduro,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: though I'm sure he'll spill the beans on that one
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: if they keep pressing him. Even leaving aside the potential
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: ground incursion, just starting a war, we keep getting told
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: that there's a bipartisan concern about these strikes. Where are
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: we seeing that? Is the Hill doing anything? John Thune?
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Mike Johnson doing anything? Any Republicans?
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: I feel like Thomas Massey and Rand Paul have said something, maybe.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: Okay, yeah.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: We're just blowing people up in the water now. We're
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: starting a war in Venezuela because, you know, that's how
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: you get the Nobel Peace Prize. You start wars in Venezuela.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and then Trump today, truth that he basically threatened
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: to send U.S. troops into Gaza.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. He said, yeah.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: He said, we're going to kill Hamas if they don't
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: knock it off, is the new thing.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: I think the Venezuela thing is just like, it's sort
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: of under the radar. And again, I don't know why,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: because it is a war that we're talking about, the
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: potential to start a war. I guess we've already started it,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: because now we're just killing people. The military's just blown
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: up boats. And again, you're like, well, who's on the boat? Oh,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: drug smugglers, narco terrorists. They were coming to America with
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: drugs to poison Americans. Well, A, that's not really a
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: legal rationale to just kill people. But B, where's the evidence?
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: They don't feel like they have to provide it. Breaking
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: news here is from the New York Times. The military
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: commander overseeing the Pentagon's escalating attacks against boats in the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Caribbean Sea that the Trump administration says are smuggling drugs
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: is stepping down, two officials said.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: Do you think he's stepping down because he was being
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: too aggressive? No, probably not. I mean, this is one
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: of those things where in a normal world, with a
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: normal Congress, a normal Congress, there would be pushback to
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: this unauthorized war. No, not from like, you know, you're
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: not going to get it from John Thune and Mike Johnson,
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: but there would be more people like the people who
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: actually work on the committees that authorize these things would
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: have something to say about it. And there'd be demands
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: for evidence. This is like in this era, realm of
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: foreign policy and use of military forces, like one of
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: the rare places where bipartisanship still kind of sort of
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: exists periodically. But then publicly, I don't know that anyone,
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: most people don't know this is happening. And up until
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: the moment we send ground troops there, we do know
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: over the last 24 years here that the American people
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: have a very high tolerance for military strikes that don't
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: involve US boots on the ground.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Do we feel that anyone's nervous about That, you know,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: now when Americans are in international waters or Americans are
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: other places, that maybe other countries are going to say, well,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: if the Americans can just kill people without evidence now,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: maybe we can do the same thing too.
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: That would be a logical conclusion of where we are
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: right now.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Throw that one in a poll maybe.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: See how people respond to that.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: I don't think they'd like it. Not that.
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: Many people have votes.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: On the Tuesday pod, Tommy and Lovett talked about how
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: nearly all of the Pentagon press corps, including Newsmax and
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Fox News, refused to sign the contract that Pete Hegseth
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: was forcing on them. Quick update on that. Here's the
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: lead from The Washington Post on Wednesday evening. The nation's
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: military and defense journalists exited the Pentagon in unison Wednesday afternoon,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: having had their accreditation revoked after refusing to agree to
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: the Defense Department's new restrictions on their news gathering activities.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: White House communications director Stephen Chung then claimed that a
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: number of those reporters actually wanted to sign on to
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: the new restrictions, but were, quote, physically confronted and threatened
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: with retaliation if they didn't walk out, which, of course,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: the reporters swiftly denied because, of course, it's not true.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: How do you think this will change the coverage? Like,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that the reporters did this and stood together.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: And I mean, this is like sort of what we
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: had said with the White House AP situation. Like, why
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: doesn't everyone else walk out? And, you know, there were
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: good reasons not to, but what do you think about this?
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Like what's going to happen now with the Pentagon?
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: I don't, I don't know. I think a lot, I
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: think some of the day-to-day coverage is probably going to
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: be affected. There's, you know, the Pentagon briefs every day.
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: There will not be someone there to, real journalists to
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: ask those questions, right? When like in a typical world,
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: even after like these military strikes, someone, military officer in
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: charge would do a briefing and then you would have
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: journalists who would ask questions. That doesn't happen now. But
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: even the daily or quasi-daily Pentagon briefings will not happen
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: or have real journalists, which I think is a loss.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: Sort of the big stories, the ones that reveal what's
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: actually happening behind the scenes, the thing that Pentagon doesn't
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: want you to know, the things that Pete Hicks is
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: trying to stop, that journalism will continue. Because that is
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: not found by just hanging out in the Pentagon. That's
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: found by developing sources, working with sources, finding whistleblowers, getting documents.
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: And I think that will continue. The bigger problem here,
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: or the more concerning thing, is less like, the actual
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: impact on day-to-day coverage of this Pentagon in the short term.
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: I think it's just like what it says about how
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: this administration views the freedom of the press and what
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: it portends for the White House, the State Department, just
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: for journalists in general who want to cover politics or
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: this administration. I think it's quite, quite concerning.
• 37:34
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing those journalists weren't getting a lot of truth
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: out of the Pentagon when they covered it from inside
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: the building.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I just think you can, there's something to be said.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: This is the remaining argument for like the White House
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: briefing or the State Department briefing is there is something
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: for an on-camera moment where real journalists could confront a
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: propagandist and ask them a hard question and expose the
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: lie if a lie comes. And we will lose that.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Because now most of the reporting that exposes a lot
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: of those lies will be in print because you won't
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: get them.
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: All right, let's turn to the ongoing government shutdown, which
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: if you're counting will be on day 17 by the
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: time you're listening to this. Looking like we're going to
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: be in the shutdown for a while. House is still
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: out of session. Senate Democrats, for the 10th time, rejected
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: the House's funding bill. And the Trump administration has decided
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: to just pay the troops by ignoring the law and
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: diverting money from other parts of the government. Meanwhile, White
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: House Grim Reaper Russ Vogt is still preparing to fire
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: federal employees en masse, telling the press that he expects
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: to cut more than 10,000 jobs and shut down the
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, though a federal judge temporarily blocked
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: those layoffs late Wednesday. One possible end to this shutdown
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: may come from Senator Jeanne Shaheen, a retiring Democrat, who,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: according to Axios, has been leading behind-the-scenes talks with Republicans
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: to find a way out of the shutdown. But at
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: the moment, it seems like those talks have not made
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: much progress. We'll hear more about this from Senator Schatz,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: who spoke with Tommy on Wednesday afternoon. What do you
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: think about the shutdown? What do you think?
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: Where we are?
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Where we're going? Is this just going to last forever?
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: It feels like neither side feeling the pressure all that much?
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's exactly right, is that neither side
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: feels any political pressure. I think by the traditional measures
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: of who's winning a shutdown, both in public opinion and
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: press coverage, the Democrats are winning it. But there are
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: two problems with that. One, the Republicans no longer consume
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: that press coverage. So even if they are losing, they
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: think they're winning, which gives them no incentive to get out.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Of the shutdown.
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: And the other challenge is the shutdown is not dominating discussion, right?
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: It is like you have We've worked in a shutdown.
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: We've covered shutdowns. We've been in looming shutdowns. We've been
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: on the brink of shutdowns. And we've barreled towards shutdowns.
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: And every time, that's the biggest story in the land.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: It's the dominant political story. But it is not the
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: dominant political story this time. In the very first day
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: or so, it certainly was. And I think you and
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: I talked on a podcast about the data that showed
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: that Democrats were really actually kind of winning the messaging
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: wars on this. And I think they still are. But
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: when you look at the data about what stories are
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: breaking through, This one is not breaking through. Like someone
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: tweeted the other day, someone reported to me the other
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: day that there was no shutdown story in the Times,
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: The Wall Street Journal, or The Post, I think maybe
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: on Monday.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: And what stories are breaking through, Dan?
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: Taylor Swift's album?
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Perhaps, yes, that's for sure. Perhaps a paramilitary organization that's
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: terrorizing neighborhoods here in the United States, running through the streets.
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: I mean, we could have this debate again if you'd like.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: We don't have– no, I did.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: Not want to. But there is a fundamental challenge here, right?
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: Which like I told you when we did this that
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: we could probably have a long, hour-long discussion about this.
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: Maybe we would because it feels like, well, this may
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: still be around on our next podcast. But you raised
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: this point, which is the thing that drives conversation is immigration, democracy, crime,
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: issues that go to core of identity, right? Those are
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: the central conflicts in American politics in the Trump era.
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: Healthcare is not that and does not drive that conversation.
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: The Democrats, I will say, I give them credit for
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: they want to make healthcare a bigger issue. Healthcare, they
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: have defined the shutdown on healthcare.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: It is about healthcare.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: A Republican does an interview. They get asked about the
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: Affordable Care Act tax credits. They have done that. The
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: political challenge here is that the issues that drive attention
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: online and drive conversation are not the issues of primary
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: concern to the voters who sit in the middle. And
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: so you have this issue where you can drive a
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: ton of attention, but you're maybe not be persuading the
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: people you need to persuade. Or you can talk about
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: the issues that matter to the people that matter to the,
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: to the persuadable voters, but they'll never hear about it
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: because they can't drive enough conversation. And so you're, it's
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: like this paradox that cannot be solved. And so I
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: don't have the right answer to that. I don't have
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: a solution to it, but I think that is like the,
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: that is the fundamental challenge in democratic messaging right now.
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: It was more of a challenge when Democrats were talking
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: vaguely about democracy. And when you compare that with economic
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: concerns that people had, I think the choice is much
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: clearer on what to focus on. And now all the
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: warnings about democracy have become quite real and tangible and
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: visual to most people in this country. And- It's weird
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: to even call some of the ICE problems immigration based.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: It is about immigration, but it's like American citizens getting
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: picked up off the street and troops in the streets.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: And it's just it's mayhem, you know. And so I
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: do think when you are talking to people about their
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: basic freedoms and constitutional rights, I still don't think there's
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: as much concern because as sort of economic concerns that
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: people have just because ICE and the troops aren't in
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: everyone's town yet. Um, but you know, I think it's,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: I think it's, I think it's gaining in importance for people. I,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: so a couple, I really could talk about this for
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: an hour, but so there's a couple of ways to
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: think about this.
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: One is the, the, I guess the dilemma for Democrats is,
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: do you try to make the issues that you're best
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: on dominate politics? Or do you try to figure out
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: how to win on the issues that already dominate politics?
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: Like that is, that is the core question. That was
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: at the heart of what the Harris campaign struggled with
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: the whole time. And then the other challenge is, and
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: I think we just have to remind ourselves all the time,
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: that unless you follow politics and the news pretty obsessively,
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: unless you live in a city that has seen troops,
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: unless you are a person who is vulnerable to ICE,
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: who knows someone who's vulnerable to ICE, who lives in
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: a community where ICE is present, a lot of the
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: things that cause us to have our alarm bells going
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: off at all times are are just background noise to
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: most people living their lives. And that is, that is
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: the challenge is they are not feeling it in the
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: way that the people who are dialed into politics who
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: are living in the place where this is happening or
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: feeling it.
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: I guess the only thing I'd say to that is
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: the issues that are dominating the news, even if they're
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: not our best issues, there is a way to win
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: on those issues by making our best arguments like that,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: that are on our turf.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: So, um, I always thought that the whole democracy debate,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: freedom was a better frame. I know you thought that too, right?
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: And have written extensively about it. I do think when
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: you're talking about people's basic freedoms to walk down the
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: street without being harassed by federal agents who are armed,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: that stuff does work for us. And I think we
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: have a much better message than Republicans on that. I
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: think It's a message about values that are not only
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: embedded in the Constitution, but are like just everyone in
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: America can sort of like fundamentally understand. So in a way,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: I think that benefits us politically in a way that
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: just talking about immigration, border security, deportations, political prosecutions, all
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: the rest just doesn't as much. That's the only thing
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: I've been thinking about.
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there is an interesting argument here that I've also
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: been playing with about it's sort of, it is like,
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: I don't, the using the term libertarianism is that's incorrect
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: and leaves the wrong impression. But the basic idea is,
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: is Republicans don't want the government to help you in
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: any way, shape or form, right? Does it help you
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: get affordable healthcare? Does it help you make more money
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: to help you get a job? Does it want to
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: help your, help your school be, you know, have your
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: teachers get paid enough to teach in your school, but
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: they want you at the government in your life in
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: every other way, right? They want to know they're getting
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: in information about abortions. They don't want you to ask,
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: Smoke weed. They're taking away your freedom of speech, your
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: freedom of assembly, all these things. And there's just something
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: there for Democrats to adopt. I think it would be
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: quite appealing with a lot of people who are sick
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: of the way politics is going right now. Because what
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: people want from government is Social Security, Medicare, Affordable Care Act,
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: tax credits, all those things. What they don't want is
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: mass dice agents. They don't want someone to tell them
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: what to say. They don't want someone to tell them
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: who to love, who to marry, when they can have
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: a baby, what health care decisions they make. And there's
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: something in that space for Democrats going forward.
• 46:41
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• 48:13
  Speaker 1: longer political discussion that we hadn't anticipated having is now
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: a perfect segue into talking about the midterms.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Perfect.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: Big news in the main Senate race. where Democrats are
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: hoping to beat Susan Collins, finally. Governor Janet Mills, who
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: turned 78 years young in December, is jumping into the primary.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: She'll be taking on oysterman Graham Plattner, a regular guy
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: who came out of nowhere and has been winning a
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: ton of fans, including many here at Crooked. Mills would
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: be the oldest Senate freshman ever seated if she were
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: to win. That didn't stop the only slightly younger Chuck
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: Schumer from reportedly spending months recruiting her. The Democratic Senatorial
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Campaign Committee, which Schumer essentially controls as leader... is backing
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Mills over Plattner and set up a joint fundraising committee
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: this week. Someone also dropped some oppo on Plattner on Thursday.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: CNN published a report with a bunch of Plattner's old
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Reddit comments from his anonymous Reddit handle, where he reportedly wrote, quote,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: cops are bastards, called himself a communist, and said indirectly
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: that rural white people are racist and stupid. This assault
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: on Plattner is making a lot of Democrats pretty mad.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: One of them is you, Dan. You wrote a whole
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: message box about this that everyone should read, but why
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: don't you tell us how you feel?
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: Here's my take. If Janet Mills wants to run for Senate,
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: she should run for Senate. And if she wins the primary,
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: she beat Graham Plattner, she'll be the nominee. I'll support her.
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: I'll donate it to her the next day. My problem
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: is not with Janet Mills. My problem is with Senator
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: Schumer and the DSCC deciding to endorse in this primary,
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: to get involved in an open seat primary, which is
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: not something they do very often. And I just don't
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: understand how you can look at everything that's happened in
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: American politics the last 10 years, and particularly in 2024,
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: and conclude with absolute certainty that the best path forward
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: is to nominate a two-term incumbent 77-year-old governor at a
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: time when people are mad at politics, They're mad at
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: the Democratic Party. They are worried about the gerontocracy and
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: they want change. Like we should at least be- When
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: you put it that way. Well, you just have your
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: mind open to the idea that the way to beat
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: Susan Collins, who is a very hard person to beat.
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: This is not- A lot of times you end up
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: with these generic Republicans in blue states and you just
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: need a generic Democrat to beat them. That is not
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: Susan Collins. She won- Big, when Biden was winning Maine
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: by 11 in 2020, she has been fortunate enough because
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: of the size of this Republican majority to not have
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: to vote for a lot of these nominees, didn't vote
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: for the one big, beautiful bill. And so this is
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: not an easy person to beat. And so you should
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: then at least open your mind's eye to the possibility
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: that the way to beat a strong candidate like that
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: is for an outside of the box idea, for someone
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: to do something different. Because Janet Mills, she may be
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: a great candidate. But she is just a better version
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: of the Sarah Gideon campaign in 2020. It's the same thing.
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: It's an establishment Democrat running as Maine. What if we
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: had an anti-establishment, an outsider, someone with appeal? And just
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: let the people of Maine decide. You don't have to
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: put your thumb on the scale. It's just such a
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: failure to read the room, both to understand politics and
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: to read the room about what people are so mad
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: at the Democratic Party leadership about.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I also, to talk about the CNN piece, I had
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: heard from a few different sources that it was the
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: DSCC shopping this oppo around. I hope that's not true.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: I really hope that's not true. What did you make
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: of the, of the CNN piece? Like, look, I, my
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: thoughts on it were obviously some of those comments, like
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't want those if I was running for Senate
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: to appear.
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: I did like how he dealt with it. He talked
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: to CNN for the story and he talked about all
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: the comments and he was like, I was being an
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: asshole online. He was also under an anonymous handle and
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: you know, he was, saying all this shit. And it's like, it's,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: it's not great. But then he was like, look, obviously
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: I don't think all cops are bastards. I have plenty
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: of cops who are buddies of mine. Like, I just
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: don't think that obviously I don't think all white people
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: or rural white people are racist and stupid. I'm a
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: rural white guy. I don't think I'm racist and stupid,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: you know, like, so he's sort of owned up to
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: saying some of it that he wished he hadn't said.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: And like, I was, I was fine with it. Bunch
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: of stupid comments, whatever. He was an asshole online. Many
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: people are assholes on lines. So I think it's, in
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: the end, it's like one piece of evidence people are
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: going to have to weigh when they're in a primary.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: But like, I don't know, maybe I'm, it didn't bother
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: me as much.
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: It's the response. I've been like really fascinated by the
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: response to Mills being in this race, to my piece
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: about Mills being in the race. I heard from a
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: lot of people who I've not heard from a long time.
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: In one particular instance, the last text I had from
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: this person who works high in democratic politics was them
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: being mad at me about wanting Biden to drop out.
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: which I thought was a notable. It was like the
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: single last time we texted. But like I saw someone
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: post online something like they took the CNN story and
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: they quote tweeted and said like, maybe we could finally
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: learn the lesson to stop falling in love with unvetted shapeshifters.
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: And it's like, okay, let's slow down for a second. One,
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: maybe this just gets my backup because the exact argument
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: that people made against Barack Obama in 2008, right? And
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: let's just, Let the people of Maine decide. Let's find out.
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: Maybe Plattner's a great candidate. Maybe he will implode.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: We don't know.
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: Maybe Mills will be a great candidate. Maybe she won't be.
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: That's why you have primaries. And so the DSCC putting
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: their thumb on the scale to try to rig it
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: for Mills is just, to me, seems like a crazy decision.
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: I thought his responses were good. It's like a normal,
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: well-adjusted human owning up to a mistake. Will they haunt
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: him in the general election?
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: Maybe.
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: But I will say, not everyone has things they may
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: regret saying because the Republican Senate super PAC came out
• 54:02
  Speaker 4: with an ad today with a video of Janet mill say,
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: thanking Susan Collins for all the work she's done for Maine.
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: So everyone has skeletons in their closet.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: Could that, that, and in the end, like which ad
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: is more damaging, uh, you know, Graham Platner, it says
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: he's a communist and that white people are stupid and
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: the cops are bastards or for Democrats in a primary
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: Janet mill says, thanks, Susan Collins.
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: Like who knows, you know, you don't know.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: I know the establishment strategist class, what they are thinking,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: which is what they always do. And they, and they,
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: and they tend to do it in the most smug,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: annoying possible way, as opposed to just like making an
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: argument for people about like, what's worrying them about Graham
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Platner or this.
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: Race, right?
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Like they don't, they, they just try to, they, they're like,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: we're so much smarter than you. Like, this is, this
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: is the tone that I think that the, at least
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: the consultant, the part of the consultant establishment class that
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: are very online, just quite a few of them, like
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: that tone, I think it is not only counterproductive, but it, it, it,
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: it's just, it polarizes people against what they want, right?
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Like it polarizes people towards Graham Plattner. Like I am,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: I am more, I am more supportive of Graham Plattner
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: because of the DSCC. Like you said, nothing that Janet
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Mills has done, but because of the DSCC putting their
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: finger on the race and they're doing it by the
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: way in Michigan too. Which is even crazier.
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: I will not go down this rabbit hole, but that
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: is a five times crazier decision. Because I know how
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: the DSCC ended up in this position. They've been recruiting
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: Janet Mills for months. They had no idea who the
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: fuck Graham Platner was. Graham Platner got in the race
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: and he turned out to really blow up and raise
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: a lot of money and get a lot of attention.
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: And I think there were 750 people at a Graham
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: Platner town hall or rally the other night. But they'd
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: made all these promises to Janet Mills, so they're here.
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: What they're doing in Michigan to get behind Haley Stevens
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: against Abdul El-Sayed and Mallory McMorrow to me is nuts.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: Nuts?
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: That's another conversation for another day, but that decision is
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: even crazier to me than this one.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: And it's like, again, cards on the table. Abdul is
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: a friend. He's hosted a podcast on this network.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: Love Abdul.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Also love Mallory, right? Like she's been a guest on PSA.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: She's great too. The idea that those two candidates are
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: just like, no, we must not have, we got to
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: go for Haley Stevens over those two when the primary
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: is like so far away. And you know, the reason
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: I thought about this is because the original point I
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: was trying to make is that what the strategist consultant
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: class thinks is, and it was sort of articulated by
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: a former Biden administration official I saw on Twitter today
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: because they had like Haley Stevens fundraising numbers. And this
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: quarter she outraised The other two, even though overall she's third.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: But anyway, this quarter she raised that too. And the
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: person tweets, bad day for online vibes candidates. And so
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: they think that these candidates who draw a lot of
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: attention online, generate a lot of grassroots fundraising and excitement
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: from the base, tend to be more progressive. That at
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, these are not the electable candidates.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: It is stupid to support them. And it's just a
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: bunch of dumb lefty activists online who are, who line
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: up behind them. And then when the actual race comes, then,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: you know, we're disappointed because we didn't go with the
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: establishment candidate who's more moderate and maybe more boring or
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: maybe older, but the better bet. Like, and that is
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: their worry. And I'm not saying that in every instance,
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: that worry is misplaced. You can look, you can look
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: back through many different candidates that had a lot, generated
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of excitement online and and generated a lot
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: of grassroots support that turned out to either lose the
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: primary or went on to lose the general election. So
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: I get that. But give it a chance. Give it
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: a chance. That's all. We want to talk to Graham Planner.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: We'd love to talk to Janet Mills. We're very honest
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: about how we feel about these candidates, but if you
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: support primaries, then you have to support primaries all down
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: the line, whether it's a progressive on one side, a
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: young person, an old person, whatever it may be. Which
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: brings me to another question. Another contentious Senate primary is
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: in the making in Massachusetts, where Congressman Seth Moulton just
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: announced he's challenging Ed Markey, who's 79. What do you
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: think of this one?
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: I think this is really interesting. It calls the question on,
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: if you really believe that gerontocracy is a huge problem
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: in the party, then you have to believe it whether
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: the older candidate is liberal or moderate. Look, I like
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: Ed Markey a lot. I think Seth Moulton's pretty interesting.
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: I think it's great that there's a primary here, right?
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: And we should let the, be like, you and I
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: don't get to decide, right, who's better. I mean, you
• 58:40
  Speaker 4: could if you move back and vote in your own state,
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: but you don't vote there anymore.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: I do. I'm from Seth's district, so.
• 58:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: But it's like, I think these older candidates, if they're
• 58:49
  Speaker 4: unwilling to step aside, should face a challenge. And if
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: they win the primary, if that's what the vote, he's
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: on Massachusetts' side, we've looked at it, we heard the
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: argument for generational change, which they did hear Six years
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: ago when Joe Kennedy challenged Markey and they stick with Markey,
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: then that's their choice. But like the, we should actually
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: have the debate, have the primary health, the contest here
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: and out.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: I would just add that. I think this is why
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: sort of lumping everyone into every old person into like
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: the gerontocracy. And this is a problem is not particularly useful. Uh,
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: we have talked many times before about how like Bernie
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Sanders quite old, quite sharp.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: And, Age is a question if it seems to be
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: limiting your abilities in some way, or if it reveals
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: that you have been in Washington or been in politics
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: for so long that you lack fresh ideas or an
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: understanding of where politics is and how it's moved and
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: how communication has moved, all that kind of stuff. Those
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: are all very valid concerns. I don't think you can
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: just go by the number, but I think it's definitely
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: a factor, just like the person's position on issues is
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: a factor as well, right? So I just think it's
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: not all black and white and cut and dry on
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: this shit.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: You just have to ask the question of, can this
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: person do this job six years from now if they're
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: starting at this age today?
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, some less hopeful news on the midterms. On Wednesday,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: the Supreme Court heard arguments in a case challenging Section
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: 2 of the Voting Rights Act, which is the section
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: that allows states to use race as a factor when
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: drawing their congressional maps. Before the Voting Rights Act, southern
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: states would routinely draw the maps so that the black
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: vote was split between districts, which had the effect of
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: denying black Americans representation in Congress. And that's what might
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: well happen if the court strikes down Section 2, which
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: seems quite possible based on what the conservative justices said
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: during oral arguments this week. An analysis by Nate Cohn
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: at the time suggests that Democrats could lose more than
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: a dozen seats in the South as a result. though
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: it isn't totally clear when a ruling will come down
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: and whether these changes might happen before the midterms. We
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: talked about this a few months ago. You called this
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: a five-alarm fire. I don't disagree. What are you thinking now?
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Is it four alarms, maybe?
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: Three alarms?
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: Or are you still at five?
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 4: Is there an alarm? There's not a six alarm, right?
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: I don't think so, unless you want it. Look, it's
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: up to you. No.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: Look, I think it's a challenging proposition to put a
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: positive-ish spin on something you called a five-alarm fire a
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: few months ago. But first, let me stipulate, if this
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: were to come to pass, this is very bad for
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: civil rights, voting rights, democracy, governance, and Democrats. This would
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: be very bad for Democrats. It would give Republicans a
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 4: decided advantage every time the House comes up. But I'll
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: say two things before everyone panics. The first is, We
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 4: don't know how this is going to be decided.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: The hearing was.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: Not encouraging, I would say, but that has not always
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: led to the result you would think. Famously, everyone assumed
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: the Affordable Care Act was doomed after its hearing in 2011.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: It was upheld. Now, it is possible, maybe even probable,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: that this will get struck down. Destroying the Voting Rights
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: Act has been John Roberts' life work and his chosen legacy,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: and so he may do this. The second thing I'd
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: say is, while this will give Republicans an advantage, if
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: they were to push this to the max, to gerrymander
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: as much as they possibly could, there was also a
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: possible boomerang effect, which could make them incredibly vulnerable. Because
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: when you aggressively gerrymander, you basically make more districts Republican,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 4: but you make all of those districts less Republican. Especially
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: in the South, you'll be taking these 70%, 80%, 90%
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: Democratic districts, and you are spreading them out. There's a
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: lot of Democratic voters being spread in Republican districts. And
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: so if the wave is big enough, if the movement
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: we build is popular enough, you can just blow through
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: that and win huge majorities. That's kind of what happened
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: in 2018. And so this doesn't mean that we are doomed.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: I think there are limits that Republicans will be aggressive
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: about it. There are limits to whether they can be
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: as aggressive as Trump would probably want them to be.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 4: So we don't know what's going to happen here. All
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: is not lost. But this is one more really bad thing.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: I think this is another part of the Supreme Court's
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: project to lock in a conservative power in this country.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with all that. My short-term hopeful take
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: is that it feels unlikely that this will affect the
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: 2026 midterms. And the reason why is that they usually
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: hand down their decisions in June and July and At
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: that point, primaries have already happened. Like the Supreme Court
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: does not love sort of upending an election before it happens.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: Certainly after. But like right before it happens. And I
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: do think just the practicality of redrawing maps and legality
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: in some cases in some states right before with like three,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: four months to go before an election. It seems like.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: It'd be logistically impossible.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: Because you'd have to run a primary in every... It's
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: not just adding one new district. You would have to
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 4: redraw the entire map for a state. There would have
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: to be new primary elections in all of the districts,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 4: new general elections. It would be, I think, functionally impossible
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 4: for them to do it before the midterms.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: Now, the courts could surprise us and decide to hand
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: down the ruling early. If we hear news that the
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court has decided the case and is about to
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: announce it, I think that would be bad news if
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: it comes well before June and July, right?
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: I don't think they're going to be like, you know what?
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: These liberals are all pretty concerned. Let's put them out
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: of their misery before the holidays.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: So there's that. Lakshya Jain wrote a piece on this
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: analysis for The Argument, in addition to Nate Cohn's excellent
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: piece in The New York Times. And his analysis basically
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: shows that if Because the other thing that might happen
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: is if it gets struck down, then Democrats in a
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: lot of blue states could continue to gerrymander even further.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: And so we have talked about this before, too, like
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: Kathy Hochul has been threatening to, you know, gerrymander in
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: New York. And we're like, well, that can't happen for 2026.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: But again, if this is affecting 2028 and beyond, you
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: could see that between now and 2028, states like New York,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: states like Washington, Oregon, Colorado even could continue decide to
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: redraw their maps to try to neutralize some of the
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: losses that we get from the South from the Voting
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Rights Act. And basically, Laksha Jain, the analysis is that
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: if Dems, if this gets knocked down and then Dems retaliate,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: then Democrats would need to win the House by 4.8 points,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: by an average of 4.8 points to retain the House,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: which is, it sucks, because that is a- Yeah, it's
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: a lot.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: It's a lot.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: Though I guess it was 4.5 in 2018- Was the, um,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: was that they had, it was the, so it's, you know,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: it's not, not crazy, but not great. Um, so that
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: would be my moderately, you know, the sky is not
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: falling take, even though it's fucking horrible that if this happens.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 4: The other take is also that the, all the districts
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: will have to be redrawn in 2032.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's right.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: So that, that like still, that would be, that's a,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: that's another outcome here, which is that it's just forestalled
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: until then, um, implementation in some way, shape or form.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 4: Or states just don't want, they'll just wait to do it.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: That would also give Democratic states who have to, like
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: New York, who have to jump through a lot of
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: hurdles to redistrict, can get those hurdles out the way.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: We'll have time to get those hurdles out the way
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 4: before 2032. And I would say politics changes a lot.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 4: The maps Republicans just drew in Texas would look fucking
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: bananas in 2012. They would be pro-Democratic maps all over
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: the place. They'd be helping Democrats win because of what
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: they did with Latino voters. And so- the coalition's look
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: entirely differently in 2032, which changes things too. So this
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: is very, very bad.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 4: Don't panic yet.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: And if you want to do something, one thing we
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: know we can do is we can push back on
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: Republican gerrymandering. That's already happening in States like Texas and Missouri.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: We absolutely need to pass proposition 50 here in California.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: It's just weeks away. Where the fuck's my ballot. I
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: got a text that was coming from the, from the
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: secretary of state. Got to look at my house now. Uh,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: Hopefully it's just sitting there, but it's on its way.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: Emily got her ballot. Where's my ballot? Anyway, we need
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: everyone getting their networks excited and ready to vote. If
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: you're a California voter and you're listening to this, which
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of you are, go make sure that you
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: got your ballot. Make sure that your friends have their ballots,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: that people know what they're voting on. And you can
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: find out more about this at votesaveamerica.com slash prop 50.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: So just no excuses on this one. You know, the
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: polls are looking good for Prop 50, but a special
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: election with one statewide ballot proposition is unusual, to say
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: the least, in an off-year election. And so you never
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: know who's going to show up in an election like that.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: So it's really important to get the word out. And
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: for those of you not in California, there's a lot
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: on the ballot in other places, governor's races and legislative
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: races in New Jersey and Virginia, where Democrats are trying
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: to get a trifecta in Richmond. Really important Supreme Court
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: races in Pennsylvania. And in Georgia, two seats are open
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: on the Public Service Commission, which you might be like,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: why the fuck are you telling me that? It sounds minor,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: but the commission regulates energy prices. So it's a really
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: impactful position. And organizing for this will be really important
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: to helping John Ossoff keep his seat in 2026. So
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: we need you guys involved everywhere. And on that note,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: one place you can get involved immediately, like this weekend
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: on Saturdays, is to go to a No Kings protest
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: somewhere near you. As of last count, there are more
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: than 2,500 events spanning all 50 states. Kid-friendly as well.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: We took our kids last time. They made signs. They
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: loved it. There were other kids there. They're very excited
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 4: at protesting. They thought it was great. It was a
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: wonderful experience. It was hopeful and joyous and peaceful, and
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: I highly recommend it.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: I will say we always encourage everyone to get out
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: and protest and to join these events. I think it's
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: especially important this time, partly because it certainly seems like
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: Trump and Republicans are quite afraid of this, and they
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: are trying to call it a hate America rally. They're
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: trying to call us terrorists. the Hamas swing of the party.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, the, the, the shit that they are saying
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: is disgusting. It's coming right, right from the white house,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: right from like top Republican leaders about this event. Uh,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: I just saw Greg Abbott, governor of Texas is sending
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: the national guard to Austin for the protest.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 4: Uh, come the fuck on.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: And like tech and Rangers are going and everything. Cause
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: they're like, we will not be intimidated by these hate
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: rallies and we're going to protect the citizens of Austin. And,
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: So that's Texas. Who knows who else will do this?
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: So first of all, they are looking for violence. They're
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: looking for any kind of violence or any kind of
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: vandalism to try to paint the whole movement, which is
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: going to be hard because no kings, everyone involved in
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: the protest, everyone involved in organizing it says this is
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: going to be peaceful. We want peace. People have said
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: it so many times. Of course, there are always random assholes.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: that do this for a living, that come into protests
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: and fuck shit up for everyone else. And, you know,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: there's always this thing where you were telling everyone, oh,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: everyone go be peaceful and stuff like that. Like, I
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: don't think anyone who is listening to this is thinking
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: about going to a no Kings protest and causing violence
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: or vandalism or burning a Waymo. So I, you know,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: it's sort of useless to even say it, but I
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: do think it is important to continue saying this is
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: a nonviolent protest and to take pictures. take pictures of
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: yourself there, film stuff, post it everywhere. You know how,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: because this is part of what has happened in the
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: Trump era is it's, it's not just political, but it's cultural.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: And there is this belief in the country that Trump, uh,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: that everyone is, that more people support Trump than do.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: And a lot of people are scared and a lot
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: of people don't know that they should protest. A lot
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: of people maybe don't want to speak out because they're
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: worried about all the fucking news that we tell you
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: about every week. And, So I think if you are
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: out there and you go to these protests and I
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: encourage everyone to do that, like take some pictures, um,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: take some footage, share it wherever you can. And that
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: is especially true, by the way, if you are a
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: prominent person who might be listening to this, whether you're
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: in politics, whether you're in entertainment, something else, like the
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: more people see figures that they know and respect out
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: there protesting to let everyone else know this is okay.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: This is normal. This is what we need to do.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: Like the more people we're going to get to join
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: sort of this growing movement to stop Trump's authoritarian power grab.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: So I think it's very, very important to get out there.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: And you can go to NoKings.org. You can go to VoteSaveAmerica.com
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: slash NoKings to check it out. And you can find
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: a location very close to you.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: Last two things before we get to Tommy's conversation with
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: Senator Schatz. We are so excited to announce Alex Wagner's
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: new series here at Crooked. The show is called Runaway Country.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: Alex is going to be talking to the regular Americans
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: caught in the middle of our insane politics, real stories
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: about how real people's lives are being affected. Really think
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: you're going to love it. You can listen to the
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: trailer now. Make sure to tune into the premiere of
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: Runaway Country with Alex Wagner on October 23rd. New episodes
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: drop every Thursday. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: your podcasts or watch on YouTube. Also, some big CrookedCon news.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: You may have heard that our November 6th Pod Save
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: America live show, featuring none other than Jasmine Crockett, is
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: sold out. But there are still some tickets available for
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: our day-long CricketCon event on Friday, November 7th. It now
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: features three stages, and that means even more guests. The
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: latest additions to the lineup include our buddies Jen Psaki
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: and Simone Sanders-Townsend from NMSNBC, Tim Miller from The Bulwark,
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: Representative Pramila Jayapal, Jessica Valenti, Waleed Shahid, Adam Mockler, and
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: Kai Polanco. They'll join Senator Ruben Gallego, Representative Sarah McBride,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: Governor Andy Beshear, Hassan Piker, and many more. Also, we'll
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: be hosting more live tapings of Crooked shows. In addition
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: to strict scrutiny, you can attend live tapings of Hysteria
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: and our subscriber-exclusive show, Terminally Online. That's a lot. There's
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: a lot going on in D.C., Dan.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 4: It's going to be a big day.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: Big day at Antifa HQ. There are only a handful
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: of tickets left. Get yours now at crookedcon.com. And we
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: will see you in DC next month.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 6: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp therapists have helped
• 1:14:16
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  Speaker 9: My guest today is Hawaii Senator Brian Schatz.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: Senator, welcome back to the show.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 9: It's great to see you. We're two weeks or so
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 9: into this government shutdown. Are there any conversations happening between leadership,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 9: kind of rank and file, you know, the gangs we
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 9: used to always hear about that would solve these problems
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 9: or talks with the White House that kind of might
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 9: give you a sense of the endgame at this point?
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 8: We're not quite there yet, but I think what's happened
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 8: in the last maybe five days is the beginning of conversations.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 8: I just really believe two things that first Republicans legitimately
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 8: did not understand the velocity with which this healthcare issue
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 8: was about to smack all of our constituents in the face.
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: And the severity of it.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 8: Because while we were arguing about the big, beautiful bill,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 8: I think they made the assumption that we were exaggerating
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 8: about how much this was going to drive up costs.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 8: And now they're learning that we're not exaggerating and we're
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 8: giving them a lifeline. So they're a little more open-minded
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 8: to talking. But I think Trump's been overseas. And of course,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 8: Mike Johnson won't make a move without Trump. Soon, a
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 8: little less so. He'll let some people have some conversations.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 8: But I would say the last two days have been
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 8: the most constructive in terms of what's our way out
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 8: of this.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: That's good news.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 9: Can you remind listeners what these horribly named enhanced ACA
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 9: tax credits actually do and what the impact would be
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 9: if Republicans let them expire at the end of the year?
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just a subsidy.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 8: I mean, you know, like it just, it just defrays
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 8: the cost of healthcare premiums. So for some people, it'll
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 8: take your premium down from like 150 bucks a month
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 8: to almost zero. And for some people, it really defrays
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 8: the cost in a way that makes it possible versus
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 8: impossible to stay on healthcare. So the average premium increase,
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 8: according to the Kaiser Family Foundation is for more than
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 8: 20 million Americans, is about 114% increase. And so people
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 8: just can't swing that. And the cost of electricity is
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 8: now rising at double the inflation rate. Vegetables up 39%.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 8: Coffee up 20%. Lots of things are getting more expensive.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: But other than housing, health care is usually the biggest expense.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 8: And so driving the cost of one of your most
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 8: essential things up is super unpopular.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: And so I think they want out of this as well.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 9: Yeah, they're doing a bunch of very unpopular things. You
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 9: mentioned the cost of electricity going up. That's happening as
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 9: Trump is killing off all these clean energy projects just
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 9: left and right. I mean, it's just this ideological driven
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 9: sort of attack on the consumer that seems like it's
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 9: going to harm him.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 8: I mean, look, I think Trump has a pretty coherent
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 8: economic philosophy, which is to create shortages and And then
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 8: bail out his friends. And that's what the tariffs are about.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 8: That's what the cuts to food assistance are about. That's
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 8: what the cuts of Medicaid are about. That's what the
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 8: elimination of solar projects is about. He likes it if
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 8: there's less of everything. because then everybody has to go
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 8: and petition the monarch for mercy.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 9: There are some Democrats, I'm sure you've heard this argument,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 9: who kind of look around the country. They see the
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 9: ice raids. They see troops in the streets. They see
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 9: the administration defying court orders. They see this rescissions process
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 9: where no matter what you guys negotiate in good faith,
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 9: the OMB just claws back that money. And they see
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 9: that and they think Democrats shouldn't fund this government for
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 9: any reason, given all those factors.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: What's your response to that argument?
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 8: I think, look, I think on the rescission side, it's
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 8: really vital. If we're going to enact a bill, it
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 8: has to stick. And we have to have some confidence
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 8: that it's not going to be clawed back. Now, one
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 8: of the things I've said to my Republican colleagues is, look,
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 8: if we're going to enact appropriations bills, can you at least, senators,
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 8: House members, I have no hope for. But senators, can
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 8: you at least say to the extent that we've enacted
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 8: this on a bipartisan basis, we're not going to come
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 8: back three weeks later and like cut it on a
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 8: partisan basis? And I think there's some movement on that question.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 8: And I think that would be an enormously positive outcome here.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like the bare minimum they should do.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 9: So House Republicans are on vacation.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 3: They're not in D.C., I don't think.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 9: The White House is using the shutdown as a pretext
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 9: to lay off thousands of federal workers and Trump is
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 9: tweeting out videos where he calls his OMB director.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 3: The grim reaper.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 9: There are times where I look at the dynamic on
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 9: the Republican side, and I wonder if these guys actually
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 9: really want to reopen the government.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: But you seem more hopeful than I am.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 8: I just think there are enough people who hate this.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 8: And I think the assumption that they made about Russ Vought,
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 8: I mean, they're saying they're cutting Democratic priorities, right? They
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 8: cut special ed. They cut substance use treatment money. They
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 8: cut CDFIs, which are these local lenders, mostly for rural
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 8: and tribal communities. And they, in their sort of bubble
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 8: on Pennsylvania Avenue, think those are like Democratic priorities, or
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 8: as they say, Democrat priorities. But it's Mike Rounds, it's
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 8: John Thune, it's Tom Tillis, it's Dan Sullivan, it's Lisa Murkowski.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 8: Everyone's freaking out saying, I don't know what gave you
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 8: the idea that this wasn't a bipartisan program. And so
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 8: I think Russ Vought sort of overplayed his hand. And
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 8: I think as we see evidence that they've overplayed their hand,
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 8: they're going to get even more sort of rhetorically nutty
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 8: because I think people want us to fear the thing
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 8: that has already happened. And I think if the equities
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 8: were a little different, right? If we were saying, hey, look,
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 8: if we move on, then Russ Vought will like cut
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 8: it out, right?
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: That's one thing.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 8: But Russ Vought has been doing all of these things
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 8: all along, and he is not in possession of additional
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 8: new authorities to lay off workers. He's just in the
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 8: possession of a Twitter account where he can say, let
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 8: the riffs begin. And I don't mean to diminish the severity,
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 8: the importance, the illegality, the pain of all of this,
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 8: but it is very hard to negotiate with someone who
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 8: is threatening the thing that has already occurred.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: Good point. Is it Vought? I've been saying vote the
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: whole time. Did I get the Reaper's name wrong?
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: I think it's Vought, but it's fine.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: I guess we don't fear the Reaper, so we're just
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 3: going to say it how we want. Switching gears a
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: little bit.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 9: So the Trump administration recently designated Antifa as a domestic
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 9: terrorist organization. The administration is now threatening to go after
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 9: progressive groups they say are somehow supporting Antifa. I do
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 9: think it's worth noting that that one of the many
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 9: ways the United States combats terrorists is by killing them.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: So that's the context here.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 9: How concerned are you about this kind of rhetoric and
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 9: this Antifa designation being used as a pretext to just
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 9: go after Trump's enemies?
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: I'm very concerned. But there's something that we can all
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: do about it.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 8: I'm sure your listeners and viewers are planning on attending
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 8: a rally on October 18th somewhere in their community. And
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 8: I think what Trump and Pam Bondi and Kash Patel
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 8: want more than anything is bad behavior, right? And flags
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 8: that are not American. And I just think that we
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 8: have to be a movement that is peaceful, that is joyful,
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 8: that is mainstream, that is patriotic. This is not time
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 8: for the, hey, while we're at it, this is the
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 8: most important issue that I've been, you know, I have
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 8: a burning desire to surface today. This is about some
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 8: basic shared humanity that and some understanding of what it
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 8: means to be in the United States of America and
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 8: to be American. So bring your American flags and bring
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 8: your open mind, right? This is not a time to
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 8: poke anybody in the eye. One of the things that
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 8: I think the Trump campaign did very successfully is those
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 8: rallies looked fun to people, right? Maybe not to us,
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 8: but there was a joy to it. People were dancing,
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 8: people had American flags. And, you know, post-COVID, by the way,
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 8: a lot of people weren't even doing gatherings. And here
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 8: was this kind of communal.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: Event.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 8: And so we're now the party that I think can
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 8: reclaim this sense of community, this sense of.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: What it means to be an American.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 8: And we have to welcome people who disagree with us
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 8: about a number of issues to just say, let's fight
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 8: about that stuff later. This is not what the No
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 8: Kings rally is about. The No Kings event is about
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 8: exactly that, that we do not elect a monarch, that
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 8: we have a system of government that we are not
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 8: just like adherent to or that we ought to comply with,
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 8: but we are in love with it, right?
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: That's what makes this place great.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 8: And we have to, even though we're frustrated with the
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 8: leadership of the United States of America, we have to
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 8: reclaim that flag and fly it very proudly.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 9: So are we popping the top and, you know, hanging
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 9: out the family jewels or is that a no?
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: That's a no.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: That is not what I expected you.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 9: To ask me. Look, I try to keep you guessing. No,
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 9: I did want to ask you about the No Kings
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 9: protests this Saturday. I will be attending. But top Republicans
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 9: like Speaker Johnson, they've called the protests a hate America rally.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 9: I think Johnson also said attendees will be from the
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 9: pro Hamas wing of the Democratic Party. What do you
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 9: make of those comments? And what do you say to
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 9: listeners who might be a little nervous about going to
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 9: a big protest? when you got the president sending ice
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 9: goons and, you know, uh, national guard members to American cities.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 8: Just be peaceful, be fearless, um, understand, um, what they
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 8: want is a precipitating event to invoke martial law or
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 8: the insurrection act or some, you know, bogus conspiracy about
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 8: some nonprofit that's like pre-printing signs or whatever it is.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 8: But I think At its foundation, Tommy, what Mike Johnson
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 8: wants to do is talk about anything other than the
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 8: fact that prices are about to go up for health
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 8: care by 114 percent, that vegetables are up 39 percent,
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 8: that coffee is up 20 percent, and that the price
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 8: of electricity is up more than double the rate of inflation.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 8: And so they would love for the conversation to be
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 8: about anything other than what people are facing, mostly on
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 8: November 1st. when they get that letter from their carrier saying,
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 8: your prices have doubled.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 9: Yeah, that will be a nightmare for basically every family.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 9: President Trump, he just brokered this ceasefire and hostage release
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 9: deal between Israel and Hamas. It's unequivocally a good thing.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 9: We're all praying that it holds. But it comes after
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 9: a huge cost and two years of brutal war. And
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 9: politically speaking, Gaza has led to this big dip in
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 9: support for Israel among Democrats. How do you think, if
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 9: at all, the Democratic Party should adjust its policy towards
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 9: Israel in the wake of the war and in the
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 9: kind of anger at the brutal way the IDF conducted
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 9: itself in the Gaza Strip? Like, for example, should Democrats
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 9: vote against providing Israel with billions in a 10-year MOU
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 9: for foreign military financing?
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 8: So I think we have a little bit of a
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 8: luxury of time here. I think it is appropriate for
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 8: people who are Democrats who consider themselves pro-Israel to essentially say, hey,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 8: this isn't what I signed up for. And I was
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 8: one of those who started to vote on those joint
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 8: resolutions of disapproval and other actions to restrict those arms
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 8: because they were not defensive weapons. The security partnership between
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 8: the United States and Israel is one thing, but to
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 8: the extent that Netanyahu was using it to brutalize and
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 8: kill Palestinians en masse, count me out. Now, I think
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 8: the question going forward is how does the Israeli military behave?
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 8: How does the Israeli government behave? And I, for one,
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 8: am willing to readjust in the direction of reestablishing a
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 8: security partnership if they behave well. Now, I don't really
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 8: have a lot of hope with Smotrich and Ben-Gavir there.
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 8: I don't really have a lot of hope with Netanyahu there.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 8: But I think that if we are to reestablish this
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 8: idea that Israel and the United States are partners, We
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 8: have to behave like partners. And I don't think this
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 8: is a never more, we're never going to work with
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 8: you again. It depends who is in charge of the
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 8: government of Israel. Right now, it's people who are explicitly
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 8: talking about ethnic cleansing. Right now, it is people who
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 8: are supporting all of these violent settlers and the kind
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 8: of commandeering of land. and other resources from Palestinians in
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 8: the West Bank. And so count me out of that.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 8: But if there is a new Israel and if there
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 8: is a new policy as it relates to Israel, then
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 8: I'm very interested in what that would look like. But
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 8: right now, my view is as long as Bibi Netanyahu
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 8: is in charge of Israel, I'm very, very unlikely to
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 8: change my position.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 9: As you've seen, too, there's a lot of anger among
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 9: Democrats at AIPAC for demanding that Democrats, you know, sort
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 9: of take the Netanyahu line on everything and for intervening
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 9: in Democratic primaries in particular and going after progressive candidates.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 9: Do you think that Democrats should take money from AIPAC's
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 9: political action committee? And I phrase it that way because
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 9: I To say take money from AIPAC could mean not
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 9: take money from 5 million people who just happen to
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 9: be AIPAC members or supporters. But I think that the
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 9: political action committee is sort of like a direct reflection
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 9: of the values of the organization.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 8: I mean, I don't want to get into like whether
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 8: it's a super PAC or whether it's a, you know,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 8: here's what I would say. I think that AIPAC 15
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 8: years ago used to be a broadly bipartisan organization. You
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 8: could disagree with them or agree with them. But they
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 8: were broadly bipartisan. And I think now they have become
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 8: an arm substantially of the Netanyahu government. And I try
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 8: to maintain a dialogue. I haven't raised a penny from
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 8: AIPAC affiliated folks since my very first race. And after
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 8: the JCPOA, I maintain a functional relationship in terms of
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 8: foreign policy where I have a dialogue when necessary. But
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 8: I just said no thank you to the fundraising side.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 8: but I just think they have lost the plot. And
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 8: I've told them that directly. I have told them that
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 8: this is not making Israelis safe. This is not making
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 8: Israel safe. And this is not making Jews in the
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 8: diaspora safe. And so, you know, that's my view of
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 8: that as that organization. And I'm hoping just like any
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 8: organization that they see the error in their ways, but
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 8: I'm not all that hopeful.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. One more foreign policy question for you.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 9: So The president has put in place this policy of
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 9: having the US military kill suspected members of drug cartels
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 9: traveling in boats off the coast of Venezuela. The US
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 9: has moved a ton of military hardware to the Caribbean.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 9: That includes guided destroyers, F-35s, Reaper drones, thousands of troops.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 9: As we were talking, Ben Rhodes just sent me a
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 9: tweet that says, breaking news, the Trump administration secretly authorized
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 9: the CIA to conduct covert action in Venezuela, according to
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 9: US officials.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 3: It It sure feels.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 9: Like we are barreling towards a regime change war or
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 9: operation of some sort with Venezuela. How concerned are you?
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 9: And what do you think the stakes are here or
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 9: the impact would be?
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: I'm super concerned.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 8: I think we need to be vigilant and we need
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 8: to recognize a regime change war when we see one.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 8: There's a tendency because of history to think regime change
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 8: wars only happen in the sort of in our hemisphere,
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 8: I think it's taking a little longer for people to
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 8: clock like, wait, what the hell are they doing here?
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 8: And what evidence do they have? And under what authorities?
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 8: And by the way, what is the strategic purpose of
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 8: any of that? And if they're doing this on the
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 8: covert side, as well as on the DOD side, then look,
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 8: there should be bipartisan opposition to any regime change. And
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 8: it is very, very difficult to argue that this is
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 8: in our urgent, compelling national interests.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 3: No, it seems crazy.
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 9: I mean, how is America first regime change wars in
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 9: Venezuela and a 20.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 3: Or maybe $ 40.
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 9: Billion bailout for Argentina? That seems, uh, not quite what
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 9: Trump campaigned on.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 8: I mean, although I think if you understand America first
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 8: as whatever Trump says, um, then that's exactly what this is.
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 8: This is people whispering his ear at Mar-a-Lago and he
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 8: does it.
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 9: A lot of buddies of Scott Besant's who work at
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 9: hedge funds that want to get paid out on those
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 9: Argentinian peso bets. Final question for you. So Politico had
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 9: this story earlier this week. It was a leaked group
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 9: chat with a bunch of young Republican leaders. I'm not
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 9: going to walk through all the gory details, but suffice
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 9: to say the comments were extremely racist, anti-Semitic, often violent, misogynistic.
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 9: But my question is about J.D. Vance's response to this story.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 9: So Vance tweeted an image. of a text from Virginia
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 9: Attorney General candidate Jay Jones, where Jones advocated for political violence.
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 3: And then J.D.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 9: Included text from himself that said, this is far worse
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 9: than anything said in a college group chat. And the
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 9: guy who said it could become the AG of Virginia.
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 9: I refuse to join the pearl clutching when it comes,
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 9: when powerful people call.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 3: For political violence.
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 9: So look, I will gladly say that I found Jay
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 9: Jones's text to be nuts and I condemn them.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 3: And I think there's no place in America for political violence,
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: full stop.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 9: But I'm curious what you think the impact is of
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 9: the vice president just refusing to say, yeah, you know what?
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 9: Those comments were out of line and I don't support that.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 9: And like, I'm not saying that these kids, these not
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 9: kids who weren't college kids, I'm not saying these people
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 9: should be canceled for life or need to like go
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 9: to prison somewhere. But like, I just I don't I
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 9: wonder what the impact is of the vice president refusing
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 9: to say.
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 3: You know what?
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 9: I'm not cool with, uh, joking about sending your political
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 9: opponents to the gas chamber.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 8: I mean, not like how hard is Nazism is bad
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 8: and I condemn Nazism. So I just correct one thing, Tommy,
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 8: you know, these are not kids, right? They're grown men,
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 8: 18 through 40 through 40. Um, it's another conversation about
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 8: young Democrats and young Republicans is a little goofy to
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 8: be 39 and considered a young Republican.
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: But in any case, um, Look, I think, you know,
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: why not both, right?
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 8: Why not condemn political violence or violent talk on both sides?
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: I do think J.D.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 8: Is making a, maybe he has no choice here, but
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 8: he's making a tactical error. I think Trump is the
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 8: only politician that can get away with this crazy shit.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 8: And I think that one of the reasons Ted Cruz
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 8: broke with the Trump administration on the question of Jimmy
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 8: Kimmel's suspension cancellation is that Ted understands that Trump is
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 8: singular and can get away with uniquely unconstitutional things. But
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 8: when it comes time to like run in a primary,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 8: someone's going to need to be able to say, look,
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 8: I supported Trump all the way. But when he came
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 8: after your first amendment rights, I was there to stand up.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 8: And I think JD has just decided, you know, no
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 8: enemies to my right. Even if by, by to your right,
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 8: it means actual young neo-Nazis.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: Um, and that is, I.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 8: Think a bet that will not age well. but I
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 8: think he's got no other play. And I also think
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 8: he's now in an information bubble where people are feeding
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 8: him stuff he wants to hear.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 9: Yeah, and look, as much as these guys like to
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 9: point the finger at Democrats and lift up videos from
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 9: protests on college campus and call us extremists, they have
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 9: a real and growing right-wing extremism problem. I don't know
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 9: if you've seen the clips of Nick Fuentes going around
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 9: and the things he says on his show, but I
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 9: would argue that This kind of commentary from these non-kids
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 9: is far more common than it was 10 years ago
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 9: and is becoming kind of coin of the realm in
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 9: a lot of these young MAGA circles.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I don't know that, but I will
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 8: say that, you know, I kind of suspected that some
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 8: of these kids were, you know, I shouldn't say kids,
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 8: these young men were. shit posters and mildly racist and
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 8: everything else, but the sort of extent of it in suit,
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 8: the enthusiasm with which they did it. And, you know,
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 8: the fact that someone was like, Hey, if this ever
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 8: got published, we'd be, we'd be cooked for real, for
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 8: real indicates they know exactly what they're saying and why
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 8: it's terrible. But there's a sort of culture of, um,
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 8: showing that you don't give a shit, right. And it's
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 8: one thing to be like irritated by the requirements. You
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 8: put your pronouns on a zoom or whatever, you know,
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 8: or that like you want to watch Andrew Schultz and
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 8: laugh at all the jokes, even if a third of
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 8: them are technically inappropriate.
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: That's fine.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 8: But we swung a very, very long way from people
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 8: being irritated by like a DEI panel or, you know,
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 8: PowerPoint to now it's cool to say racist shit.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 9: And now it's cool for Pete Hegseth to purge the U.S.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 9: military of, you know, black people and women just because
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 9: he assumes they were all put in there by DEI.
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 3: Like, yeah, the pendulum has flown way too far.
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 9: We're in a crazy place. Senator Schatz, thank you so
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 9: much for doing the show. Best of luck with these negotiations.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 9: We have a lot of, we have hope.
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: I'll be hopeful. But Saturday, no King's protests. We'll all
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 3: be there.
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: That's our show for today. Thanks to Brian Schatz for
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: coming on. Lovett's going to be back in the feed
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: on Sunday. with a conversation with Andrew Ross Sorkin about
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: why big business has been so eager to cave to Trump. Bye, everyone.
• 1:37:54
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