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There Is No Such Thing as Work-Life Balance | Brett Billups · Profitable Christian Business

• 0:15
  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Prophet of Christian Business.
• 0:19
  I am your host, Doug Greathouse, and today's guest is Brett Phillips.
• 0:23
  He's an experienced HR executive, author, and founder of Biblical HR.
• 0:27
  Brett has spent decades leading human resources at a high level, including roles in Fortune 100 companies, as CHRO for one of the largest employee owned general contractors
• 0:35
  in the country, and a CHRO for the world's largest chaplaincy service.
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  He's also the author of Biblical HR, Applying Eternal Truths to Everyday Work.
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  His work focuses on moving HR beyond administration and transactions into a true business driver for work for selection, engagement, and development.
• 0:53
  Today we're going to talk about what happens when biblical principles actually shape the way we hire, lead, develop, correct, and care for people at work.
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  Brett, welcome to the Powerful Christian Business Podcast.
• 1:03
  thank you, Doug.
• 1:04
  It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:05
  ~ so I like to dive right in.
• 1:09
  So you you spent a lot of time in HR, I think decades, right?
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  And can you still walk into a business, a church, a restaurant, basically anywhere, without instinctively noticing how people are being let?
• 1:23
  ~ no.
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  I mean I when you walk in it's it's it's pretty obvious what with the experience that I have, ~ there are different kinds of leaders and it's just fun to watch and see what kind
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  of ~ leadership personalities that are in the organization or in a ~ in a ~ a group of people.
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  And it's ~ it's it everybody's different and every leadership style is different.
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  So it's not
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  All right, all wrong.
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  It's just everybody has their certain style, but it's just fun to to ~ to watch and evaluate and and see how people operate.
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  So no, I can't walk into a room and not not do that.
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  ~ I I c I have another question, ~ kind of like to set the stage, if you will.
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  ~ your company is biblical HR, is that correct?
• 2:15
  It is, yeah.
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  So can you kind of take us on your the path of the journey to that, like how you got started in HR and kind of what directed you ~ towards where you are now?
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  Sure.
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  ~ I've been in HR probably thirty, thirty-five years and I started out in ~ a couple of private companies.
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  And as I I grew I got on with ~ Kraft Foods in like two thousand and one.
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  And that's where I my HR career really kind of ~ took off and grew some ~ meat on the bones, if you will.
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  And I and as I was
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  As I was doing that, I was I I became a Christian a little bit later in life.
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  I thought I was a Christian.
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  I grew up on in the middle of Texas going to church every Sunday and and Wednesday and got baptized when I was twelve years old, but I wasn't a believer, but I thought I was.
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  And then when after shortly after I got married, well, maybe five or six years after I got married, I got really sick.
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  I lost
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  ~ I my liver was shutting down.
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  They took out my gallbladder.
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  I lost 30 pounds off of what I am now and is in the hospital 10 days.
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  And I realized I needed to get more serious about my faith.
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  And my wife at the time was reading Henry Blackaby's book, Experiencing God, and realized that it was a it was about a relationship and not what I did.
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  And what what how responsible I was, or how good an employee I was, or how good a a son I was, any of those things.
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  And and so I I started ~ attending Bible studies and getting more involved at the church and homeschool.
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  We actually started homeschooling our children, and I ~ started getting more serious about my relationship with Christ.
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  And as I grew in my relationship with Christ and grew in my career, I realized that.
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  I I was struggling with how to align my faith with my work.
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  I would go to church on Sunday morning and and listen to a wonderful sermon and wonderful worship.
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  And ~ and then I would just dread going back into work the next day.
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  So I couldn't connect the dots between Sunday and Monday.
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  And actually was becoming bitter at the church because they were not able to give me the tools necessary to connect those dots.
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  And I realized that.
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  That wasn't their job.
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  I was convicted it was my job to connect the dots between Sunday and Monday.
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  So I just started I tried to find resources that would would help me connect those dots.
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  I could find a lot of high level resources like theology of work and faith at work kind of ~ broader conceptual things, but the nothing that would really help me in the trenches.
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  So I just started I started reading and studying on my own.
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  How to deal with the difficult boss, how to deal with the difficult employee, how to do a performance review, how to do an interview, all of those day-to-day kind of employee
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  issues that I was counseling people how to handle.
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  ~ but I wanted to do that from a godly biblical perspective.
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  So I I started studying.
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  I would take a passage of scripture, pull out the biblical principles, and then I would say, okay, using my HR experience, how to apply these biblical principles to this specific
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  situation.
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  And I and and I just started ~ writing on how to do that ~ for my own edification, just to help me about how to deal with those complex situations on a on a daily basis.
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  And that's how I got started.
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  And that's how I
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  and I was encouraged to put those into a book form.
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  And I said, Nah, maybe I'll do it when I retire.
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  ~ but then nah he said, No, you need to a friend of mine who actually was ~
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  He w he had been the CHRO for Michaels, Michaels retail stores.
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  And he said, No, you need to put that in to get that out for people.
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  And I said, Okay.
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  And and so it's out.
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  So it's out for people to to hopefully help them through those situations as well.
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  Nice.
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  We're gonna highlight that book a little later and it's gonna be in the show notes, of course.
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  the funny thing is, ~ right before we came on, Brett and I went through through the questions.
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  I I I send the guest questions every week and it never fails that we start having a conversation and he says something or or the guest says something that triggers another
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  question.
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  So we're gonna get to a lot of those questions that he and I went over before the before the we got on here.
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  But ~ two things I wanna talk about that you said there and ~
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  You said that you ~ were baptized and you felt like you were saved at twelve, I believe is what you said.
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  ~ but it wasn't till later in life that you that you realized you weren't and then you were then you got then you got saved again.
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  Can you tell me what how you felt or what was different between then like I know that might be asking a lot, but what was different when you were younger and you felt like you
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  ~ were saved versus when you actually got saved?
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, it was as I was growing up, I was the oldest of four kids.
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  And I was the responsible older brother.
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  Okay.
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  I followed all the rules.
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  I did everything right that I was supposed to.
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  I didn't wanna ~ and so that's what I thought being a Christian was was just being being obedient was just following the rules based in scripture, being a good person, being a
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  doing all the right things and and
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  And so that's what I was.
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  And so what you were supposed to do at ~ in the ~ Southern Baptist Church was walk down the aisle to the fourth stanza of just as I am and ~ get baptized the next week.
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  And matter of fact, I walked out of the aisle and my two brothers followed me.
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  Yeah.
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  So, and so we all three were down at the front, and the pastor looked down at us.
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  We had a reputation, us Phillips boys had a reputation.
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  And he looked down at us, he said, What are you guys doing down here?
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  What are you boys doing down?
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  And said, We're we're here to get baptized.
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  ~ okay, okay.
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  So then we all three got baptized the next week.
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  But it was just a ~ out of a sense of obligation.
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  That's what we were supposed to do.
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  And so I thought I had I I thought I had checked all the boxes and said, okay, I'm I'm I've checked the box.
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  I've
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  Got the fire insurance and I'm ready to I'm a Christian now.
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  I've done what I'm supposed to do.
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  And and I continued doing that all through high school.
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  And then when I got out of high school, I said, you know what?
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  I am really tired of just being the ultimate responsible one.
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  I was the one at home and I was the one at school.
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  I mean, we had grew I grew up in a small school and I was I they I was so responsible that they they elected me class president.
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  My freshman, sophomore, junior year, and then I was student body president my senior year.
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  It was like I I was the one that was just responsible to get things done.
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  And I'm not doing that to pat myself on the back.
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  It was just that's who I was and that's what I was doing.
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  And so I thought that's what I was supposed to do.
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  And then when I got out of high school, I said, I am so tired of being responsible.
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  And I just, I, I stopped doing that.
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  And I just, I lived the life I wanted to, which was.
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  And a an ungodly life.
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  and when I I even got after we got married, I mean my wife and I got married and we realized both, and we had the same she's the oldest as well.
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  And we realized that it it was not about just following the rules and trying to be a good person.
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  It was about a relationship.
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  And that's when we both realized that we we were not as saved as we thought we were.
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  So
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  if that makes any sense.
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  And so we that's when we realized that it was about Christ.
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  It was about my relationship with Him and not follow because I can't follow all those rules perfectly.
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  I can't do ever all those things perfectly.
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  There's ~ there's no way.
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  And and so it was just it was just such a the difference is Doug the peace
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  Mm.
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  and the joy.
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  Mm.
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  And the release and just
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  the ~ removal of all of those chains of trying to meet the law in my own effort.
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  So that's the difference.
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  I I I love all that.
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  ~ religion.
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  I mean, it it's it's gotten be cliche, religion versus relationship, right?
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  Yeah.
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  but I I love and I I want to put that out there as a challenge to anyone that might be listening and feels like ~ yeah, I I was I was saved ~ at a young age.
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  Just examine your examine your heart and examine if you if you feel like you have a relationship or you're just going through the practices of of of religion.
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  ~ and
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  Hopefully that helps somebody today.
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  So so thank you so much for sharing that.
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  ~
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  welcome.
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  One of the other things that ~ when you were answering that was the compartmentalizing that we often do ~ with our lives, right?
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  You you were trying to figure out how to
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  take Sunday through the rest of the week.
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  Right.
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  ~ and I feel like that that's a danger for a lot of people is they overcomp comp car car I can't even say the word compartmentalize their their their spiritual walk, right?
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  ~
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  so can you kind of talk about your own experience in that and ~ some maybe some insights.
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  Yeah.
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  ~ one of the things that I I I really okay, so here let me give you an example.
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  So about eight or ten years ago, my father passed away.
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  It was suddenly.
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  So it was it was he had had a he had he passed away overnight.
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  And I was on a a business trip down in Houston.
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  And so I had basically had to drop everything and drive home to my
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  mom's house to to to be there for my family.
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  And ~ so that was the priority.
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  So therefore that moment in the next few days and even the next few weeks and even months, there was a huge priority in my life of dealing with the the the after effects and
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  aftershocks of my father passing away.
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  And so
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  I realized then at that point there's no such thing as work-life balance.
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  It's impossible because you can't compartmentalize work and then compartmentalize your personal life.
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  Sometimes one takes priority over the other.
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  But then to take that a step further is that we can't just be a Christian at church in our personal life and then not be a Christian at work.
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  So we have one life.
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  We don't have two.
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  And trying to serve two masters of work life and personal life is number one, it just creates more anxiety.
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  Number two, it's impossible to do.
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  You can't serve two masters.
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  So you have one life.
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  And relying on God's priorities every moment of every day, there that's not a balance.
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  That's a focus.
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  So you can't separate God's priorities into personal or professional.
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  And so I can't do that either.
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  God's priorities are God's priorities.
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  And so when you when you think about that, it's it's just a it's just a focus on what what is God's priority for me today and in this moment.
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  And it's one of the things too that I've been thinking about, Doug, and and I'm sorry, but it it
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  The the concept of praying without ceasing?
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  What does that really mean?
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  What that means is that you're you're you're constantly in the presence of God.
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  So you're constantly in that that position or that positional attitude of prayer with Him because you're aware of His presence in every moment of every day.
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  It's not as you're just driving down the road and your eyes are closed and you're praying.
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  You can't do that.
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  That's not what that means.
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  It's that you're just constantly aware of his presence.
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  It's almost like, you know, when ~ my wife is home, I'm aware of her presence, even though we're not in the same room.
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  I know she's here.
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  I'm just aware that she's downstairs doing something, but we're we're in the same house.
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  But when she's gone, I'm aware she's not here.
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  And there's a difference.
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  I mean, it's like I I feel differently.
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  I miss her.
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  I miss her presence.
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  Even though I'm not in the same room right now, I know she's here.
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  So there's a there's a presence there with God that is we are we are to constantly be aware of and constantly be ~ a part of.
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  And that that changes your your focus a lot.
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  W and when you have that relationship, this game back to the relationship, he says he will never leave or forsake us.
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  He's always there.
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  Yeah.
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  Exactly.
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  that is that is awesome.
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  we have rewind moments on the show.
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  and so I want to call that a a rewind moment.
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  Go back and listen to that, ~ or if you're watching the video, ~ replay that section.
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  because ~ that is so important is that the the pray without ceasing, what does that look like?
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  And you kind of illustrated it perfectly.
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  So so thank you for that.
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  You're welcome.
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  Well let's let's dive back into the H R a little bit.
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  So you've led H R in Fortune One Hundred environments, construction and chaplaincy.
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  Which of those worlds surprised you the most about the people?
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  You know what?
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  I after after working in both ~ the private sector and the for profit sector and the nonprofit sector, if you were to to to look at each of those, what surprised me the most
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  is that is that people are the same, no matter whether you're in the for profit or the nonprofit.
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  People are the same.
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  I mean, you you would have an expectation of them being different from one or the other.
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  But no, people are people.
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  We're all sinners.
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  We all struggle with the same things.
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  We all struggle with our insecurities.
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  We all struggle with our egos.
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  We all struggle with with sin in our life.
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  And it's just what surprised me is I thought, ~ going into the nonprofit world, that'll be just a Christian environment and everything will be perfect.
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  It will be almost heaven.
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  Now no, we're all people.
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  It's just that's I think that's what surprised me, but it shouldn't have.
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  If that makes any
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  sense.
• 17:41
  Yeah, you had I I I totally get that.
• 17:43
  You have you would ha I would have that expectation if I was to walk I would ex just expect experience a different type of people, but no, everybody's everybody is the same
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  and they're all dealing with with life on this on this w in this world.
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  So
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  Yeah.
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  Exactly.
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  We do a fill in the blank question on every Profitful Christian Business Podcast.
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  So your fill in the blank question is a company knows its culture is truly healthy when blank.
• 18:10
  When you hear joy and
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  Yeah.
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  So when you hear
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  little bit?
• 18:14
  Yeah, let's let's dive in on that a little bit.
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  What how do you how do you act when you feel ~ seen, heard, valued, cared for?
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  And it's like what what do you what do you feel and how you act?
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  Well, there's a sense of of peace and security and a a joy and a freedom.
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  And it's like whenever I hear
• 18:42
  Laughter in the halls or laughter in offices.
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  And it's like, there's there are people that enjoy being with one another.
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  And so when you enjoy being with one another, you work well together.
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  And so when you when you hear that joy, and you can you can hear it as soon or hear it or feel it or sense it when you walk in.
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  I've walked in organizations where it's just quiet.
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  You don't hear any talking, you don't hear any laughing, you don't hear any interactions.
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  So that that joyful interaction is how I can tell when a when an organization is a is a healthy one.
• 19:27
  That is amazing.
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  I feel like we just planted a hook because everybody that's listening or watching now, like, okay, that sounds amazing.
• 19:34
  ~ how do we get there, right?
• 19:36
  So I think the the next series of questions are gonna you're gonna help us walk us through how how to get there.
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  So ~ you argue
• 19:44
  that HR should move from an administrative and transactional function into a strategic business driver.
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  What has to change first for that shift to actually happen?
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  Okay, I'm gonna give you the the business answer.
• 19:54
  Okay, and then we can maybe we can dive in on on other answers.
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  So what has to change is that HR has to become ~ a a ~ better student of the business.
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  So HR has to ~ understand what the business is about, how the under ~ how the business makes money, where the business is losing money, and understanding all of the business
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  aspects of that.
• 20:17
  Because what you do from an HR standpoint is that, okay.
• 20:21
  If an organization has certain productivity goals, one, three-year, five-year productivity goals, what is w and and finance and operations they determine, okay, we need to be, we
• 20:32
  need to meet these productivity expectations.
• 20:35
  ~ okay, so how do we use our people resources to make that happen?
• 20:43
  And so, because you can put all the numbers out that you want to, but who accomplishes the goals?
• 20:49
  It's
• 20:50
  the people within the organization.
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  So, all right, so how do we do that?
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  So when you when you look at HR is number one, ~ I go through a a seven step model of of implementation or HR strategy.
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  Number one is the basic compliance fees.
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  So you've got to do everything from a a legal standpoint.
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  Okay, that's that's the base.
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  You understand the laws, federal, state,
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  local, municipality, all of those laws.
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  You understand what those laws are and you comply with them.
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  that's number one.
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  Second is okay, based on my business productivity goals, what ~ is workforce planning?
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  What are the skills and competencies that I'm going to need to meet the business goals one, three year, five, because they're changing all the time.
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  Both professional and technical competencies, what am I going to need to meet these goals?
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  And then what positions am I going to need to meet those goals that that align with the skills and competencies that I need?
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  So that's step one, determining what the skills and competencies are professionally and technically and what positions I'm going to need.
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  Number two is you determine what the you do an internal talent assessment.
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  Do I have that internally?
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  If I don't, can I there are people that I can develop into that, those roles.
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  And so you assess your talent internally and then you do a succession planning chart.
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  You put an org chart together.
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  All right, this particular position, I do have a an immediate successor for that position, but and for this particular position, I don't, but I can develop Joe into that position in
• 22:38
  the next one to three years.
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  But this position, I don't have a successor.
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  So that's a red critical, critical position.
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  So if this person leaves, I don't have anybody that can do that job.
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  So when you evaluate that, ~ then the critical positions that you let's say you need someone in that position a year from now, and you don't have anybody that can step into
• 23:04
  that role, then you have to develop a talent acquisition strategy for the critical hires as a top priority.
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  But then those secondary hires.
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  What am I going to if if there's any of any positions that are yellow, I need to start putting some time and energy and effort into to filling those positions and building a
• 23:23
  database of people at internally and externally that can step into those roles.
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  And then the next step is training and development.
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  I've got to train both internally and externally.
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  If I hire externally, I've got to train them into the organization and then train them in what the dirt.
• 23:42
  their duties and responsibilities are.
• 23:44
  But if I identify somebody on the succession planning chart that can step into that role in the next one year or three years, I've got to start developing them to do that.
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  And so that's a training and development.
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  And then the last one is retaining them.
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  What is you, how do you retain your people?
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  Do you are you are you paying competitively?
• 24:04
  Are you complain ~ are you compensating appropriately?
• 24:08
  Do you have an appropriate
• 24:10
  benefits package?
• 24:11
  Do you have people that are engaged and ~ invested into the organization?
• 24:18
  So that's the that's the people strategy model that I like to bring into an organization from a business standpoint and using those and using biblical principles all along the
• 24:27
  way.
• 24:28
  And I I think what a lot of people might you know that don't know a whole lot about HR might see from the outside looking in is like HR is the compliance department.
• 24:38
  But more s what you're talking about is is totally strategic.
• 24:41
  So with that being said, what is is the training and development the strategic piece or is there more that HR should own?
• 24:50
  I would say it's all strategic because because there are times when ~ organizations they just they they they contact HR when somebody leaves there when, I need to fill this
• 25:04
  position.
• 25:05
  I need you to post this position and and I need to hire a new person for this position.
• 25:09
  Well, ~ okay, but is that the right position that you're going to need a year from now, three years from now?
• 25:17
  And having those strategy discussions.
• 25:21
  prior to just training and development.
• 25:23
  It's all part of strategy.
• 25:25
  So it's all it's it's actually a process that you have to to walk through.
• 25:33
  it's a strategy process, not just each one of those individually.
• 25:37
  It's all collective.
• 25:39
  I don't know how how many people watching, probably quite a few or listening are sports fans, but what I'm hearing there's a lot of sports like stuff that could translate in into
• 25:49
  the business and and vice versa, because when I think about like a professional team, you're always looking you're you're you have that next you're developing that next person
• 25:57
  up, right?
• 25:58
  To fill that that's that starter.
• 26:00
  Yep,
• 26:01
  that that that position and you're and you're looking you're you're looking for future talent all the time, right?
• 26:07
  ~
• 26:07
  so
• 26:09
  That just went through my head.
• 26:10
  Like there's there's so much that they do in sports that also translates to business and an HR and HR
• 26:16
  I would I would say one of the things that I I like to the to tell organizations is that, okay, within a certain period of time, whether it's three years, five years, you've got a
• 26:27
  a an identified bench for every potential position within your organization.
• 26:35
  Yeah, that that's
• 26:36
  strong.
• 26:37
  That's strong.
• 26:39
  Your biblical HR model focuses heavily on three things.
• 26:43
  Selection, engagement, development.
• 26:46
  Of these three, where do you see businesses creating the most avoidable damage?
• 26:51
  Let me okay, so the most recent Gallup survey that was released in twenty twenty-five, I think, it showed that employee engagement was at its lowest level in ten years.
• 27:06
  And the reason for that was that managers were less engaged.
• 27:12
  So as you define engagement, it's individuals that are invested
• 27:21
  And ~ into the success of the organization.
• 27:25
  So are less people that are invested into the success of the organization.
• 27:31
  So what does that mean?
• 27:32
  I mean, that means that ~ it no amount of training or development is going to compensate for someone who is not engaged.
• 27:42
  And if you if you look at if you look at the hiring piece, yeah, that's important, but
• 27:50
  When you when you have individual because because hiring is a two-way street.
• 27:54
  If you've got an organization where people are not engaged and people can get in and the organization has a reputation for that, people are not gonna the hiring piece is that
• 28:04
  people are not gonna want to work for you.
• 28:06
  So I would say that the engagement piece, but I want to go a step further to that.
• 28:13
  Okay, so engagement is people that are invested in the success of the organization.
• 28:20
  But as you as you let's define the the difference between engagement, what's the what's the goal of engagement?
• 28:30
  Okay.
• 28:30
  Then ga is the goal of engagement to to drive revenue or increase profits?
• 28:37
  Or is it to improve the well being of the organization?
• 28:41
  So what's ~ of the of the people in the organization?
• 28:45
  So what's the difference between engagement and well being?
• 28:48
  So engagement is how people are engaged in the workplace.
• 28:52
  Well, being is their overall their their life kind of ~ position.
• 29:01
  Okay.
• 29:02
  And so when I when I tell you that we talked earlier about there's no such thing as work life balance.
• 29:08
  There's no such thing as work life balance for me, and there's no such thing as work life balance for other individuals as well.
• 29:13
  Believers or non believers, people bring, bring their
• 29:17
  They're stuff into work.
• 29:19
  They just do.
• 29:20
  So you can have engagement figures and numbers and you can measure that, but the most impact that an organization has is if you improve the well-being of a person.
• 29:32
  Okay.
• 29:34
  So how do you do that?
• 29:36
  All right.
• 29:36
  So one of the things that I've been thinking of, there's is as I look at the the the Gallup survey results, and I think of, okay, what is that?
• 29:47
  What does that mean?
• 29:48
  What is that, how is that impact an organization?
• 29:52
  I I I think of how to how do you bring and enhance an individual's impact to an organization?
• 30:05
  And so I look at Christ.
• 30:08
  All right.
• 30:09
  I look at what he did.
• 30:12
  All right.
• 30:13
  What did what did he do?
• 30:14
  And there's a there's a lot of talk.
• 30:17
  Doug, about how Christ developed leaders, or what is what does Christian leadership look like?
• 30:26
  And what but Christ in I study all of his interactions as I look at all of the interactions in the Gospels.
• 30:36
  Okay.
• 30:37
  And I compare that to interactions that we have in the organization, in organizations.
• 30:43
  So organizational, the most organizational, according to ~ a ~ number of different studies, most interactions that that organizations have are like in these at a staff
• 30:57
  level, staff meetings, project meetings, or ~ implementation project or whatever.
• 31:04
  It's at that at that level of of of of smaller kind of staff ~ at
• 31:13
  Engagement.
• 31:14
  Okay.
• 31:15
  Like nine to nine and a half percent of the interactions were one-on-ones.
• 31:23
  And then about there was about ~ I think it was 84% fell into that staff meeting kind of interaction or engagement.
• 31:33
  Everything else falled on the on the other side.
• 31:35
  But as you look at Christ's interactions, his interactions with the disciples were a small group was like
• 31:43
  Forty-five percent of his interactions were that.
• 31:46
  Okay.
• 31:47
  And about over almost thirty percent of his interactions were like one-on-one.
• 31:53
  Now it may have been other a lot of other people present during that time, but he was healing.
• 31:59
  He was he was he was working with people on a on a one-on-one basis, and he encouraged people on a one-on-one basis.
• 32:07
  So I started thinking about this concept of workplace discipleship.
• 32:10
  And what does that really mean?
• 32:13
  And it's like, it's more than it is is leadership development discipleship?
• 32:19
  Yes.
• 32:20
  But is discipleship leadership development?
• 32:22
  Not necessarily.
• 32:24
  Christ was more focused on the individual's heart and his relationship with a one-on-one.
• 32:31
  Okay, so how do we foster that?
• 32:33
  And I feel like I'm taking all the time, Doug.
• 32:35
  I'm so I'm but I'm answering the question.
• 32:37
  Okay,
• 32:38
  so
• 32:39
  As you think about workplace discipleship, when I was a CHRO for Austin Industries, the the large general contractor, I would have these staff meetings every couple of weeks, all
• 32:52
  of my HR group.
• 32:54
  And I would have ~ all the people in the HR function on these calls every couple of weeks.
• 33:02
  And then after a few months, I realized we weren't getting anything done.
• 33:05
  And but and my senior leaders were telling me, Brett, they're a waste of time.
• 33:08
  Nobody's engaged.
• 33:09
  Everybody's multitasking.
• 33:11
  Nobody's contributing.
• 33:12
  So I and they were right.
• 33:13
  So I scrapped all of those.
• 33:17
  And I went to weekly one on ones with all of my direct reports and all of my indirect reports.
• 33:24
  It was every half an hour, every Friday, I had one on ones.
• 33:29
  And so I would, I could, I would deal with them individually.
• 33:34
  And I could eliminate obstacles, I could connect dots, I could because one and if because if you don't do them right, it then just becomes an accountability meeting.
• 33:44
  How are you doing on this project?
• 33:45
  What are you doing here?
• 33:46
  And it's like it then that those are not effective.
• 33:49
  But if you really treat them as discipleship opportunities, then the culture of the organization filters through those one on ones.
• 34:00
  It's not just
• 34:01
  You can have a mission statement on the wall.
• 34:04
  You can have an all hands meeting every day, all day long.
• 34:09
  And the leader gets up there and and espouses all of these ~ missions and ~ values and ~ this is what we are about, this is working our organization about.
• 34:22
  But if but if he's not dealing one on one with individuals and sitting down face to face with people.
• 34:29
  then then it's just talk.
• 34:31
  It's ~ the the the culture of the organization manifests itself through the everyday daily interactions and how we deal with people and how we deal with these daily issues and
• 34:46
  situations that come up.
• 34:48
  That's that's the discipleship.
• 34:50
  That's how we disciple.
• 34:52
  And I also liken it to if you think about this there was
• 34:56
  I talked to a guy ~ a a few months ago who had he was a mountain climber and he climbed all seven summits.
• 35:05
  You know what the seven summits are?
• 35:07
  That's the the tallest mountain on each of the seven continents.
• 35:13
  That's that's a that's a goal that some people have.
• 35:16
  And he has done that.
• 35:17
  He's written a book, strong believer.
• 35:19
  And I and I talked to him a lot about this concept of tethering.
• 35:24
  So when individuals, mountain teams, climb up a mountain, they tether to one another.
• 35:30
  Intentionally.
• 35:32
  And there's reasons for that.
• 35:33
  Number one, it's there it's safety.
• 35:36
  But that's also you intentionally tether to the person in front of you, and you intentionally tether to the person behind you, one-on-one.
• 35:44
  All right.
• 35:46
  And you're all going toward the same goal.
• 35:49
  And so you're all walking in the same footsteps.
• 35:53
  You all have to go the same pace.
• 35:55
  Yeah, there's just there's so many different there's so many analogies of a team ~ in an organization going up the mountain together and tethering to one another to do that.
• 36:08
  And you can only do that through one on one workplace discipleship.
• 36:13
  You can't do that with you you can't have a hundred different people tethering together, trying to go up a mountain.
• 36:21
  It's just one on one.
• 36:23
  And that whole concept of workplace discipleship is just something that I've been studying and really kind of trying to drive home in organizations that that Christ worked this way.
• 36:37
  Why don't we work the same way in organizations?
• 36:40
  Amen.
• 36:42
  I'm gonna call this another rewind moment.
• 36:45
  I realize that was long, but but go back and rewind that whole piece because when we asked the when the ~ answer was brought up about the joy, how do you get joy?
• 36:54
  I I I think Brett just kind of filled that in.
• 36:56
  Like ~ one of the key components of getting that joy is the is this one on one discipleship.
• 37:02
  Would you say that?
• 37:03
  yeah, absolutely.
• 37:05
  I mean because you're not only because that's what Christ called us to do is to to love and care for people that he has put in our responsibility.
• 37:20
  So that's and that's where that joy comes from.
• 37:22
  Yeah, when when you invest like I I'm imagining I'm I'm I haven't sat in on one of your one on ones, but I imagine what my assumption is that is all a that's a growth opportunity
• 37:32
  for that person.
• 37:32
  When they come in, you're looking to grow them and that's discipleship, right?
• 37:36
  You're you're looking to grow somebody.
• 37:38
  ~ and when you invest somebody in somebody's growth, that just automatically makes me think, Okay, this this this company's investing in me.
• 37:46
  I want to invest back in the company.
• 37:50
  Yeah.
• 37:50
  And
• 37:50
  so that that increases the well being of the individual, which in turn increases their engagement in the organization, which in turn ~ the the well being of the organization
• 38:02
  improves their personal life, and the engagement improves the health of the organization.
• 38:09
  And could you say in turn that in most situations and maybe it's not one hundred percent, but that drives the bottom line.
• 38:18
  Yeah, it it absolutely does.
• 38:20
  It it's it that's the it it does.
• 38:23
  When you ~ Gallup also did a survey that the most in and the employees that have the highest engagement levels of of of employees within the organization, their their profits
• 38:37
  were two and a half times what other organizations were.
• 38:41
  Now, how do they get there?
• 38:43
  So as I as I started looking, there's there's there's
• 38:47
  do dive a little bit deeper at what are the according to Gallup, what are the organizations that higher that have the highest engagement level do?
• 38:57
  They tr they disciple their people.
• 39:00
  They train their people one on one.
• 39:01
  There's that one on one interaction with them.
• 39:05
  And it's like, there's a pattern here.
• 39:08
  So
• 39:08
  Yeah.
• 39:09
  ~ let's go the name the name of the podcast is Profitable Christian Business.
• 39:13
  I think a lot of what he just just said, pro how do you have a profitable Christian business?
• 39:18
  ~ there's a there's a lot of nuggets in what Brett just just mentioned.
• 39:21
  ~ I'm sure there is a lot of people wondering, like listening or or watching right now that think I don't work in a Christian company, right?
• 39:31
  So
• 39:32
  How do you apply these biblical principles to HR in a way that's practical and credible in a modern workplace, especially when employees may not share the leader's faith?
• 39:41
  One of the things that I tell people in every time I talk is that we were designed and created to operate by biblical principles.
• 39:51
  That's how God created us.
• 39:53
  We just were.
• 39:54
  Now, whether people accept that or not is a different story.
• 39:57
  But when you when you bring biblical principles, I'll give you a couple of examples.
• 40:02
  Okay.
• 40:02
  Thou shalt not steal.
• 40:03
  Okay.
• 40:04
  I mean, you've got company policies that say you can't steal ~ you can't steal company assets, you can't steal company time.
• 40:11
  That okay, so that's a biblical principle.
• 40:13
  ~ but also conversely, let's let's talk about something else.
• 40:18
  Thou shalt not commit adultery.
• 40:20
  Okay.
• 40:21
  There's no company policy against that.
• 40:23
  There's no company, there's no law against someone commit ~ committing adultery.
• 40:28
  However, there's consequences to that.
• 40:30
  I was involved in investigating an individual who was committing adultery on his wife, and people in the organization found out he lost credibility.
• 40:44
  He lost people that were trusting him, ~ people didn't trust him anymore.
• 40:49
  There's there's consequences to those biblical truths.
• 40:55
  Now you can you can bring biblical truth into
• 40:58
  An organization without necessarily calling it this is from the Bible.
• 41:03
  They're just basic universal truths that we all are created and designed to live by.
• 41:09
  So that's how you do it.
• 41:11
  You just recognize that truth is truth, whether you call it a biblical principle or not.
• 41:18
  So it works.
• 41:19
  Yeah, I I I think ~ one of the next things I want to get into is ~ Christian like sometimes sometimes people think Christianity is is soft, right?
• 41:30
  So ~ there there are times for correction, right, and even termination inside of an organization.
• 41:36
  ~
• 41:37
  so scripture gives us a very different view of human dignity than simply treating employees as labor or resources.
• 41:44
  Has that changed the way you think about hiring, performance, correction, and even termination?
• 41:49
  Yeah, it does.
• 41:50
  ~ let's talk about hiring.
• 41:52
  Okay, so you hiring is you've you've got to determine, okay, going back to that model I was telling you about, what skills and competencies am I gonna need to meet the
• 42:07
  organizational goals?
• 42:08
  So you hire and you screen to ~ the technical
• 42:15
  Competencies of the position.
• 42:17
  Okay, so they've got to basically meet the technical competencies of the role.
• 42:21
  Okay.
• 42:23
  But then again, that's just a baseline for entry.
• 42:28
  All right.
• 42:29
  That's to get the initial initial interview.
• 42:31
  But you hire the heart.
• 42:34
  You screen for the competencies and the technical skill, but you hire the heart.
• 42:38
  So how do you get to what a person's heart is?
• 42:41
  All right.
• 42:41
  So, ~
• 42:45
  Okay, so I'm I'm jumping ahead of myself a little bit.
• 42:47
  But ~ when when God told Samuel to look for another king, okay, he said, don't don't look as man sees.
• 42:59
  Man looks on the outward appearance, man just looks at the basis kills, but God looks on the heart.
• 43:05
  So how do you understand what a person's heart is?
• 43:09
  And I like using from an interview standpoint.
• 43:12
  The star method, situation, task, action, result.
• 43:16
  So what tell me about a sit time where ~ someone asks you to do something unethical.
• 43:21
  Tell me about that situation.
• 43:24
  And what did you do about it?
• 43:27
  That was the action, the task or the action piece.
• 43:30
  And then what was the result?
• 43:33
  And then just listen.
• 43:35
  So tell me about a time when ~ you were asked to to to to do something else that may have been outside of your bounds of integrity.
• 43:48
  I was asked to.
• 43:50
  at one time disregard an employee's drug test result.
• 43:59
  And I said I can't do that because that's number one, it's it would be lying and it's unethical and ~ I can't hire them.
• 44:10
  And so I said no.
• 44:12
  So that that's an example.
• 44:14
  So you can get to because ~ past behavior
• 44:18
  is a is the best predictor of future kind of behavior.
• 44:23
  So what have you done in the past?
• 44:26
  And tell me about it.
• 44:28
  And that'll give a better understanding about what someone's heart is.
• 44:31
  Can I can I interject just for a second?
• 44:32
  Because I'm curious about this.
• 44:34
  Have you ever experienced somebody lying in that situation and could you tell that they were lying?
• 44:39
  You you can.
• 44:41
  What I like to do is ask multiple different questions in a lot of different ways.
• 44:47
  Okay.
• 44:48
  So here's how here's here's a couple of things that I like to validate some of those answers.
• 44:54
  Okay.
• 44:54
  So the very first question I ask in an interview is, what do you know about us?
• 44:59
  So if if I hear the answer, well, not much, I ~ I just kind of I just saw what it is on the on the job posting, then they haven't done their research.
• 45:11
  They have not they're not interested in in my organization or working or in investing themselves in the organization.
• 45:20
  They're just interested in a job.
• 45:22
  So if if they say, well, not much, I d I don't don't really know anything, then the rest of the interview is pretty much a formality.
• 45:28
  ~ but if they tell me, yes, I've done my research, here's what you do, here's what here's some here's some things I'm wondering about, and they and they become interested in your
• 45:38
  organization, then you have a pretty good idea about what kind of employee they're gonna be.
• 45:43
  The other things that I like to ask, you can't ask a whole lot of personal questions, ~ but there are some that you can ask.
• 45:51
  I like to ask things like, What are your hobbies?
• 45:53
  What do you like to do outside of work?
• 45:56
  Okay.
• 45:57
  And you'll hear some great responses.
• 46:00
  Sometimes it's well, I'm active in my church.
• 46:03
  That
• 46:03
  that opens the door.
• 46:05
  Or I like to to volunteer at the the children's ward of the hospital.
• 46:10
  Or I like to whatever their hobbies are, that kind of gives you some insight about what they value as a person.
• 46:20
  Where do they spend their time and energy outside of work?
• 46:24
  So those are
• 46:25
  And there's another question that I ask is like, what are your hot buttons?
• 46:28
  What what triggers you emotionally, whether it be what gives you what's what gets you an immediate reaction, positive or negative?
• 46:38
  Like ~ I ~ for for on the negative side, I ~ I get I get upset when tree people try to steal or manipulate the system.
• 46:48
  But then on
• 46:49
  the other side, what gets an emotional reaction out of me on the other side is that I like I I cry at the drop of a hat.
• 46:55
  I mean, so if there's something like an emotional commercial or emotional movie, I I have no problem getting the tissues out and just there's that that gets an emotional reaction
• 47:06
  out of me.
• 47:06
  So that those are some other questions that I ask to help validate what they tell me.
• 47:13
  Okay.
• 47:13
  Well well I I think I kinda got you off track.
• 47:15
  So let's go dive into performance and then correction.
• 47:19
  Okay.
• 47:19
  ~ Christ ~ held people accountable.
• 47:25
  That's biblical.
• 47:26
  And it is biblical.
• 47:27
  That's why he had to come on the cross.
• 47:28
  He holds people accountable.
• 47:29
  There's a justice there.
• 47:30
  ~ But let's look at how he did that.
• 47:36
  So at the woman at the well, all right.
• 47:39
  He held her accountable to her sin, pointed out her sin, and pointed her in a very gracious, loving, kind manner to himself.
• 47:48
  And he purposely did that.
• 47:50
  He went to the well and waited on her.
• 47:54
  But with the Pharisees, it was a completely different story.
• 47:58
  He had to hit them between the eyes with a two by four because of their hypocrisy.
• 48:02
  So he held people accountable, but in different ways.
• 48:06
  Always either in a loving, gracious manner, pointing them to himself.
• 48:13
  But on the with the Pharisees, it was confronting their sin.
• 48:18
  and and putting a ~ and and forcing some kind of of of humble kind of attitude in them because of their pride, try addressing their pride.
• 48:31
  Now, sometimes people choose what they want to do.
• 48:36
  So when you point out, here's how you're not performing in this job, here's what you need to do.
• 48:41
  I'm willing to help and give you the resources necessary to make that happen.
• 48:46
  And either people respond to that or they don't respond to that.
• 48:50
  And then the next follow-up meeting, you're still not you're you're still not meeting the expectations.
• 48:55
  You're choosing to not meet these expectations.
• 48:57
  If you if you the next meeting, if you're if if you don't meet these expectations and you don't meet these goals, I'm here to help however you need.
• 49:09
  If you don't meet them, you're subject determination at that point.
• 49:12
  And it and then it's more of a self-selection process.
• 49:17
  And that's okay.
• 49:18
  A lot of Christians they don't want to take that step because they don't want to be seen as ~ lacking patience, they don't want to be seen as lacking mercy, they don't want to be
• 49:29
  seen as lacking ~ grace or ~ they w are harsh.
• 49:37
  Well, Jesus held people accountable and he but he and he did it in a way that was
• 49:46
  Honoring to God and not to men.
• 49:48
  I I think in that
• 49:49
  it it does and I think what sometimes is missed in in all of this is that that correction is for their good as well.
• 49:58
  ~ even
• 49:59
  if even if you're terminating someone, often that that termination is is for their good.
• 50:03
  Not just for the company's good, but often for that person's good.
• 50:07
  Yeah.
• 50:07
  You're you're addressing and pointing people toward godly behavior.
• 50:11
  And it there's multiple ways that you have to do that.
• 50:14
  Sometimes it's like the woman at the well pointing her toward godly behavior, but sometimes it's the f it the the the path of the Pharisees pointing people toward godly
• 50:24
  behavior.
• 50:25
  Yeah.
• 50:25
  ~ so good.
• 50:26
  ~ I I another question is what is the the biggest lie that leaders often tell themselves about company culture?
• 50:33
  Is that if I just tell people what this culture is about, then it will just automatic automatically infiltrate through the rest of the organization.
• 50:46
  And so if I get up and I make a pronouncement and I determine what the company culture is, and I put it in a as a as a mission statement and in the company manual, or I give an all
• 50:59
  hands meeting and give a presentation deck, as this is what we're about.
• 51:02
  The biggest lie is that they expect people to grab a hold of that and it just infiltrate rest to the rest of the organization.
• 51:11
  And they pat themselves on the back thing, I'm a good leader because I have given the the the mission and vision to the rest of the organization, and then it's their job to to make
• 51:23
  it happen.
• 51:24
  Well, the biggest lie is it doesn't.
• 51:28
  If people don't don't feel like you care about them,
• 51:31
  Or you're invested in them, then it's not going to go anywhere.
• 51:35
  So that's why I I'm I've really started this journey of of workplace discipleship.
• 51:41
  Is that okay, you can you can say it out loud, but then you have to look people in the face and tell them, here's how it applies to you, here's how I care about you, here's how
• 51:52
  I I I want, here's how yeah, I want you to be a part of this organization and how what's
• 51:58
  I want to invest in you, not just the organization.
• 52:03
  And then that filters and they invest in their people.
• 52:06
  It sounds like to me, like and I I I fear that it happens too often in organizations that, you know, they put the mission and values up somewhere and like here here it is, kinda
• 52:15
  like what you're saying now, this is what we believe.
• 52:17
  But you look at the organization and you're like, those don't what's happening in the organization doesn't match those those values and that then that mission statement you put
• 52:25
  on the wall.
• 52:25
  So it sounds like they need not just th not just those words on a wall or you know, handbook somewhere.
• 52:31
  They need an implementation strategy.
• 52:33
  And I feel like
• 52:34
  the I'm talking to the right person if they're looking for an implementation strategy to to help their business ~ either through your book or or or personal consultation.
• 52:43
  So ~ let's kind of segue into that.
• 52:45
  Where can people find out more about you and what you do and how you can help them.
• 52:49
  Yeah, a couple of ways.
• 52:49
  I mean, you can you can go to my website, biblicalhr.com.
• 52:53
  I've got several resources ~ resources on there.
• 52:57
  I've got that HR strategy model I told you about.
• 53:00
  I've also got videos, training videos on how to handle situations from a godly biblical perspective.
• 53:08
  And you can even connect them with me on LinkedIn.
• 53:11
  I put all of those things on LinkedIn as well.
• 53:14
  Awesome.
• 53:14
  So we're gonna put every link that we have for Brett below his LinkedIn link, a link to his book, a link to his his website.
• 53:22
  ~ there's been so many, I feel like we could have Brett back and Brett could drop like 10,000 more nuggets.
• 53:28
  But ~ this has been ~ really filled with really great nuggets if you want to improve the culture of your organization, which ultimately leads to build ~ growing the bottom line as
• 53:39
  well and being a profitable Christian business.
• 53:42
  And
• 53:42
  I just want to reemphasize the word profitable in this.
• 53:45
  Yes, we're talking about profit in the form of revenue, but we're also talking about being profitable for the kingdom of God.
• 53:51
  So, more more so, actually, we're talking about being profitable for the kingdom of God.
• 53:54
  So, if you want your business to be more profitable for the kingdom of God, ~ I highly implore you to check out ~ what Brett has to offer because he's he can help you do that.
• 54:05
  So, ~ thanks, Brett.
• 54:07
  I have we asked one last question because
• 54:09
  ~ I I say this at the end of every episode.
• 54:11
  I don't want to leave any wisdom left on the cutting room floor here.
• 54:15
  So there may have been something on your heart or or you're thinking about right now that you'd like to share with the audience.
• 54:20
  So what is that?
• 54:20
  well, I think I just want to kind of reinforce some things that we've already talked about.
• 54:25
  Number one, we were designed and created to operate by biblical principles.
• 54:30
  Biblical truths work, whether you call them that or not.
• 54:34
  And bringing that to bear every moment, every day of your life, in every situation that you're in is the most important thing.
• 54:44
  Daily bringing those biblical truths to everything that you're doing on a daily basis.
• 54:50
  And asking God what his priorities are versus my priorities.
• 54:55
  If nothing else, those are the major things I don't want you to walk away with.
• 55:01
  Love it, love it.
• 55:01
  Thank you, Brett.
• 55:02
  And until next time, entrepreneurs, keep moving forward.