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Can England Stop Messi? Bellingham England's Best? | Outside the Box · Outside the Box with Leon Osman and Tony Bellew

• 0:00
  So, did you two end up watching the game together in the end? Because you were rumouring that you were going to get together. No, he never called me back. He never... No, no, no. Mouth, wasn't he? No, no, no. I told him I'd probably be going out. Let's set the record, Steve. And he never gave me a call. You sounded like you were going to have a big one, Tony. And then, what, have you bottled it?
• 0:20
  No, no, I'll tell you exactly what happened. He basically fucked me off and said he's playing golf with his 80-year-old mate for the day. And then he didn't want me there to play golf. So if he didn't want me there to play the golf with me, that means he didn't want me to watch the football with him. So I thought, I'm not going to step on his patch and into his territory. I'll just leave him be. So I went and watched the match with my mates, had a few drinks, and was very much worse for wear the next day. Yeah, so was I, to be fair. Which mates named them?
• 0:46
  My usual suspects, mate, Dansey. Me, Dan, a couple of others, and yeah, seven Guinnesses and brought four of them up. You might not have known actually what happened in the game then. Oh, I remember that. What happened in the game? Because all Dansey and Dansey done was argue all the way through.
• 1:03
  What were you arguing about? Because he's going on that Steven Gerrard at 22 was better than Duke Bellingham. And I said to him, stop it right now. I said he might have been a better player at certain stages, but at 22, he is not better than Duke Bellingham in any way, shape or form. It's a good debate, you know. Oz, come on, stop it now. Oz, stop. Try two. I'm with you, right? He's running games in England. Steven Gerrard, they're doing that for England.
• 1:32
  Yeah, but Stephen burst onto the scene and for club was outstanding. But for club and country, Jude Bellingham's doing it. Jude was doing it for Real Madrid. But Jude's doing it in a way that I don't think any England midfield has done it since Gaza. And I think he's still probably even having more of an impact at Gaza.
• 1:51
  We've never had... Six goals in a tournament for a midfielder. Exactly. We've never had a 22-year-old boy running a tournament for us. It's never happened in the history of the World Cup. And people go on, oh, Michael, it's one game, mate, stop it. He didn't ruin a tournament on his own. This kid has turned up, and I told you so before, and I did tell you he's going to end up England's greatest ever player, and he's well on his way. I mean, he's won the Champions League at Madrid already.
• 2:17
  Steven Gerrard hasn't done that at 20. And there's no sense, I think Steven Gerrard is the second greatest English player ever. I really do. But he'll end up third. He'll end up due billing, Wayne Rooney, Steven Gerrard. There is, for anyone who's older that does listen, there is...
• 2:33
  incredible recency bias. So we know that. I mean, Alan Ball was playing in the England jersey at 21, I think he was, when England won the World Cup, was running the show in the England midfield alongside Sir Bobby Charlton and, you know, go through the times from them. We've had some brilliant players, but everyone just knows what Jude Bellingham's doing now is absolutely ridiculous. And, um, I,
• 2:58
  Oz, explain how hard it is for a footballer of that age to be doing what he's doing because he's running games. And he's doing... Look, his ability... I'm not saying his...
• 3:12
  is better than anyone else. Because if you look at it, probably Paul Gascoigne was better running with the ball. Gerrard was better striking the ball. You know, there are aspects of his game where you'd say other people are better than him. But an all-round game, he is at the very top level. But what sets him apart is his attitude and his hunger and his desire and his...
• 3:31
  his not carefree attitude, but his fearless attitude towards the game of, it doesn't matter how big the game, in fact, the bigger, the better he takes the ball in difficult situations. I know I played in games where they were big games and you, you do feel the nerves that you have to not force yourself to go get on the ball, but you have to make sure that you are participating in the game and you're not letting the game pass you by in those ways. But,
• 3:55
  There's never any fear from him in that way. There's never any doubt that a game will pass him by because he goes and immerses himself in it. He might not play well at every single game, but you always know he's been a part of it because he always takes the ball. I think that's an incredible thing to have. He burst on at 19.
• 4:11
  He's now 23 years of age. He's probably not going to peak until the next World Cup. That's the best. That's the most incredible thing about him. He probably won't be at his best for another four years, which is great for us as a country. Now, I think we've got to the...
• 4:27
  quarterfinals or beyond in the last five major tournaments, semifinals in four of them, finals in two of them, potentially three. It's a really good age at the minute for English football and actually we just need to get over the line in one moment and win the final. And Jude Bellingham could be that man because he's still young and carefree and he plays with a real freedom that I just love to see in an England jersey.
• 4:52
  On that debate that Tony just brought up, because I used to have this debate with my friends, I didn't think Jude Bellingham was as good as Gerrard, Paul Scholes, Lampard, and this tournament has changed my opinion on that. And you're right, though, I think it's the mentality inside of him that is the key difference. But would you have Jude Bellingham over those three players? And let's throw Gaz going in the mix as well, at their prime, from where Jude is at the moment in an England team. Tony, as a fan, how are you thinking about that? Yeah.
• 5:20
  In this team, absolutely. In this team, 100%. I mean, he's assisted for Harry Kane, he finds Harry Kane, so it's not like he's being greedy and it's all about him because you know he's willing to do it. And I think him and Kane work so effectively together, to be honest. I mean, if you was Real Madrid, you'd be like that now, well, I think we should just go and get Harry Kane off Bayern Munich.
• 5:42
  Because you see the way them two link for England. Could you imagine what they'd be doing at Madrid? I know what the names they've got in Mbappe and Vinicius and stuff like that, I know. But it's just that the link-up play, you can obviously see...
• 5:55
  He's had a tough year last year at Madrid. Injuries have played a factor as well. But when he's being utilised in the correct way and played in the correct manner, which he's been doing for England, he is a phenomenon. Like, his all-round ability, as an athletic specimen himself, he moves around and gets around the pitch so well. You look at him at the Mexico game, and he's...
• 6:16
  He was all over the pitch. I don't know what his XG was, but I bet he was in the big numbers, one of the biggest on the pitch. And then, as Ozzy said before, it's his eagerness. Give me the ball. I want the ball. And I always urge the kids when I watch them when they're playing, I always shout to them, want the ball. It doesn't matter what happens, just want the ball and be brave, want to take the ball. It's one thing saying that to kids that are 12, 13 and 14 to want to get on the ball. Be brave, get the ball. But for a man doing it, well, for a 22-year-old kid, he's still a kid.
• 6:44
  And for a lad who's wanting the ball that much in them dangerous areas and them big games, fair play to him, mate.
• 6:50
  Yeah, I didn't even break into the Everton First team properly until I was 22 or 23. And he's the nation's hero, banging them in left, right and centre. I mean, I grew up watching Paul Gasco. And Gasco was probably the one that really got my attention. And John Barnes, to be honest, watching them play. The way they dribbled. I was always about people getting the ball and dribbling past people. It was what excited me. And those two were the best. Gerard Lampard's goals, I mean...
• 7:19
  ridiculous players. Do you know what? I'd love to see, and it's hard to compute, but to see those three I've just mentioned in this environment of England's team, because they always talk, Rio Ferdinand's quite sort of outspoken on it, that the environments that they went to play in, the squads that they went to play in,
• 7:36
  weren't conducive for winning football. They were all playing for themselves. They never became part of a squad. They probably wouldn't have shown all their tricks in case they sort of give them away for clubs. Whereas these lads at the minute, the atmosphere that Southgate's created, that Thomas Tuchel's created, is complete unity. A brilliant environment, it seems, to play. And they're all doing it for each other. There's no sort of hiding away from things. It's an environment to go out and...
• 8:04
  let the likes of Jude Bellingham thrive because it's go and show me your best. Don't worry about failing. Don't worry about the negative that might come with it. Don't worry about the press. Don't worry about all this. Our group will sort of look after you. And I wonder if...
• 8:18
  If that sort of environment would have... Because we had the golden generation, didn't we? They were named, what was that, 2004 till 10, roughly. And to a man, squad-wise, they'd certainly stack up against this squad that's got to the latter stages of five tournaments on the run. Those guys never. But they'd all stack up against it. So was it environment? Was it...
• 8:37
  managers not getting the best out of them? Was it not identifying one person to build your team rounds? Deciding out of those three midfielders who's the alpha and who's the ones that are going to go around it? Because in this team, we know it's the Kane and Bellingham show. It's about getting the best out of Harry Kane. By doing that, Jude Bellingham has a freedom to go play his game because he complements Harry Kane. And because of that, we've now got, I'm sure I read for the first time in World Cup history, football.
• 9:05
  two players from the same team that have scored six or more goals in a major competition, and they're playing for England, which, you know, going to a semi-final must make us and make them feel full of confidence.
• 9:17
  It's happening with Mbappe and Dembele as well. They're bang at it, so you're coming up against them. But ultimately what you're saying is spot on. Like I said, I felt coming into this tournament, it was going to be his tournament, but he's gone above and beyond now. I think there's just no disputing and no debating this kid is the future of English football. You know what? I think a massive amount of credit should be given to Gareth Southgate.
• 9:42
  because he's created this winning mentality. All of them other generations you spoke about, them managers all failed, and if we be brutally honest, he failed miserably some of them. We didn't even qualify for some of them tournaments, which is an out-and-out disgrace with the squads that we've had over the years. But fair play to Gareth Southgate. He deserve so much credit, because he put this winning...
• 10:02
  mentality and the cohesion of the squad back into play for England. I genuinely believe that. And Thomas Tuchel's basically picked up where Gael Salcate's left off. Do you think he left too early? Or do you think he'd be able to do what he should? I think he was just one game. Well, listen, he's been one game away, hasn't he? So, from making history. And I just feel it was unfortunate. You lost on NLC's mates. Come on.
• 10:24
  I mean, that's a 50-50 as it gets. He really did. So I really do feel for Gareth Southgate because I think he's harshly done by and the media just want to criticise and blame everyone when he done so, so well. So I give them all credit in the world. Well done, too. Rightly so. And he left. I think I heard quoted saying that he got to the last final a couple of years back and
• 10:51
  having won a semi-final for the second time as England manager to get us to the final which no other manager in England I don't think had done before winning two semi-finals yes he hadn't quite won the final and he said he got to celebrate for four minutes or something like that it was like single figure minutes he celebrated before the pressure heaped back on him and it all became real and it all became about the next game and
• 11:15
  And he realised that if he was having to only celebrate, he couldn't enjoy the victories properly anymore. He just felt the pressure too much. And...
• 11:23
  I have to take my hat off to him. He was, as Tony said, a little bit of luck. I mean, yes, he's been criticised for decision-making in those big games where he should have been proactive and he was reactive. But he got us into this position now where Thomas Tuchel should hopefully be able to make the difference. But I was going to ask you, you know, Garrett Southgate got the job after coaching the under-21s and the under-20s and coaching the new team. And with modern footballers now, he...
• 11:51
  He sort of haven't done that. I think he was in that crucial stage where you're watching these young players who haven't quite got the egos of the senior players, but he was watching them develop and helping them develop into young footballers. And you look at Argentina, who had a lot of problems after the, I think it was the 2018 World Cup. They give Lionel Scaloni the job after that. And he'd been managing the under-20s and the under-21s as well at Argentina.
• 12:18
  And Diego Maradona came and said it was a disgrace. He would not know what he's doing. Other people complained. He wouldn't know what he's doing. But then he's galvanised this Argentina squad to win the World Cup in that kind of mentality that Gareth Southgate used. And I just wonder whether that's maybe the new pathway rather than these big coaches, your Jose Mourinho's to come in with all of this big, you know, follow me. I've done this for ages and respect, respect. Where the next step is...
• 12:44
  with the way young men and young people develop, not necessarily young players, whether they need someone who's going to help them develop from 20 upwards and know how to speak to that because Southgate was a kick of the ball away. Scaloni won the World Cup and both come from the way. I just wonder what you thought about it.
• 13:04
  Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think Southgate definitely set the culture now that Tuchel's grown upon. And I think Tuchel's squad selection is quite clearly seen that it's about the team getting along together and more about that sort of player management approach than what past managers would have done where it's throw the best players in there. I was probably one of those at the start of the tournament looking at the squad going. I would have wanted some more of the better players who are more technical or can do a bit of...
• 13:31
  a moment of magic in the squad. But I've been proven wrong by Tuchel so far. So, yeah, I'd agree with you, Roz. I do and I don't. I mean...
• 13:44
  I still feel it's hard done by by some of the players who have been left back. But now, I'm not knocking him in any way, shape or form, because he's winning games, Thomas Tuchel, and that's all that really matters. And if we be brutally honest, we weren't at our very best and we're still winning games sometimes, and that's something that I haven't seen from an England team in a long time. We have to be really good to win usually, and...
• 14:07
  In this tournament, we haven't been great at certain times and moments, but we've still found a way to win. And that just looks like someone who's a winner. And that's what Thomas Tuchel is. He's not asked about, does it make sense to play this fella? Why am I picking Madweke over the other players? He just doesn't care. He's just like, I'll do what I think's right for me, what I think's right for the team. And he's going with it. Whereas that's the only thing that anyone can ever knock out Gay Ford. You know, when we played in the last one,
• 14:37
  He constantly kept putting Foden on, and it clearly wasn't working time and time again. He wouldn't remove himself from his formation. Your mate, Phil Foden. Your mate, Phil Foden. He still should be there. I don't care what anybody said. See, I kind of agree, but I'll not quite disagree as such. But one of the things about Gareth Southgate was he was very pragmatic to the point...
• 15:02
  that I didn't so in the past if we go back before Southgate yeah we had to really play well to progress we didn't seem to be able to find those moments where someone would step up like Bellingham and Cayman in this tournament that when you're not playing well you score goals
• 15:18
  And we were always trying to play this open exciting football. I think Southgate did change that. I remember watching some games that were horrible to watch and boring, but we progressed and then it was sort of papered over the performance because it was fine because we progressed and we'd all go, yeah, I think we played, was it Slovakia? And we just about won. In tournaments, we played, was it Germany and won? And just, you know, not great performances, but we got over the line, whereas...
• 15:44
  Thomas Tuchel, after that game the other day, came out and said, I'm delighted with the mentality. He talked about the brilliant mentality, which has been ingrained in this squad now for five or six tournaments. But he criticised the performance. And I've not seen that in recent history. Gareth Southgate wasn't someone to come out and criticise a good win. Because he knows how hard they are to come by in an England shirt. And he didn't do that. So it was nice to see Thomas Tuchel do that. Basically demand the players...
• 16:12
  a little bit more know that so you enjoyed that you thought that was a so that we know what we're seeing yes we're all pleased that through but we all know we don't play well so it was nice to the managers to actually acknowledge that it's not I didn't want us to play I want us to play better but great mentality and great for us to get through I liked it
• 16:29
  So what did you think about Bellingham's response then? Because obviously he had something to say about Tuchel's. There was a miscommunication in terms of what Bellingham and Thomas Tuchel sort of said and were told. The interviewer didn't give Jude Bellingham the full story. So Tuchel was right in terms of, because I think it was Gabriel Clark actually said that
• 16:50
  You know, the question of mentality, how dare you? He was like, that is pure mentality, getting over the line, grit, desire, performance, determination, mentality. These are basically mentality monsters, is the thing I've heard a lot last few days. But then the first question Jude Bellingham got asked was, the manager was really disappointed with that. What do you think? And then Jude's like, well, what? We just got through it. And then you get that response. The question wasn't said in terms of,
• 17:15
  The manager says, oh, your mentality is incredible to have won that game in that moment, but he thinks you should be playing better. He was disappointed with how to play. And I think that in that moment, Jude Bellingham would have gone, yeah, he's right, actually, because we didn't play well. But what a performance still. To understand the question didn't, the way the question was phrased didn't help. And that worries me in terms of, are we trying to find another way of not helping the guys? Are we trying to find another way of dividing the country before this big Argentina game?
• 17:44
  I mean, Tony, you must have been in moments in your career or seen moments for England or anything where you think, are the press helping or hindering? They're always going to try and drive a divide.
• 17:57
  It just makes better headlines, doesn't it? It's mad. Why would you want to even say that this, you know, whatever? Just leave it be. But I think that Bellingham will be smart enough. I think the media don't understand how to take Bellingham yet. They made a narrative around the likes of Raheem Sterling. They make a narrative around other types of players. They haven't created a narrative around you, Bellingham, yet, because I don't think they've actually realised what he is or what he's actually about.
• 18:23
  Whereas they like to create the narrative about other players, managers, whatever, have you? So I think they're still trying to make their mind up on Jude Bellingham because he's such a nice lad, what he's seen from the outside. And I don't really know him, but he seems such a nice kid. You know, every time I see him in the media, every time I see him, he's the one to stop. He's the one to love to do interviews. He's the one to speak to people, you know, talking to people, just general people as well. Not like some of them in the media. He always seems a really nice go-to kid.
• 18:49
  Kind of like Jack Gielish is the really nice go-to. He's just so grounded and so humble. He comes across as that person. And I think the media, as I said, are struggling with how to take him up to now. Whereas with Tuchel, he just won't care, mate. Tuchel just will not care. Nothing is going to bother Thomas Tuchel because he's that long in the tooth now with football management. And at the highest levels, it just doesn't bother him.
• 19:13
  Yeah, I don't think either Tuchel or Bellingham will be phased by that as soon as they walk into the changing room. I find it quite refreshing, the fact that they had a little bit of a difference in opinion, especially like Bellingham coming out and just backing himself and backing his performance. I think you need that type of mentality. That's the only part I didn't see, so I haven't seen what Tuchel said after the game and I haven't seen what Bellingham said. Was that when the Guinnesses were coming back up? They'd fully kicked in at that stage. I was throwing a few shapes out at that stage.
• 19:45
  They weren't wrong in saying, and Thomas Tugger was wrong. It wasn't a great performance. It was a nervy one to watch. We started okay for 10 minutes, and then suddenly we're on the back foot. We're a little bit nervous. Don't know if we took the ball. They took the ball. Odegaard started getting on it, pushing us backwards. They had a lot more shots than us in the first half. They had a lot more, not intent, because we had a lot of the possession, but we couldn't...
• 20:05
  we weren't really penetrating. I think Madweke took a lot of criticism, but he was the, I'm not criticising, to get into their moments and to be playing in these latter stages isn't easy. I've come to the heat in a moment, but it was the opposite of what we just talked about in Jude. When getting the ball in any situations, Madweke and one or two others just seemed a little bit, well, I've got it. I don't want to lose it. It's too hard to run at someone. I'll pass it back and,
• 20:31
  Talking about the heat, but that will have made a difference. I went and played in Miami on a preseason game about probably about 2013-ish. And it was probably one of the toughest environments I played in. And it was, I think we played about seven or eight o'clock at night, not five o'clock in the afternoon, which is what they played at, which would have been even hotter. The heat is just sweltering. It's oppressive. It pushes you down. You feel so lethargic. You don't feel like you can make a run.
• 21:00
  It would have been easier when we were training in the likes of Austria and Switzerland at altitude the week or two before was easier than going to Miami, which is what England found. Going to Mexico, the altitude, because the heat wasn't as intense, they found that manageable. They found they're able to run at the end, but this one,
• 21:18
  I could completely understand it, is just too much. The fact that we went there and played extra time and you still had the likes of Bellingham and people getting around the pitch late in the game was mind-blowing to me. Yes, I know he's got young legs, but the ability to still get up and do stuff in that heat and take the ball, that's why I take my hat off to anybody. And that's why I knew it would be a difficult fixture in terms of,
• 21:43
  When you get the ball, knowing. So Anthony Gordon, the game before, had come out and said I was holding back against Mexico. I really went for it. I knew not to be scared. I knew not to turn back. Go and do something more. And yet quite often in the Miami game, he did just get in and pass it. Well, that was the heat. That was that. I just haven't got the end. I need two more minutes to get my breath back and to get going again. So real credit to them getting through a tough game, especially being behind. I thought the goal just before half-time was crucial. Killed us.
• 22:10
  Yeah. What did you think about the goal we conceded? Gary Neville have a few harsh words about Jordan Pickford. Do you think he was at fault there at all? Or is it just one of those where it's a shot kind of cross and it goes into the back of the net? You best ask Tony. He's a budding goalkeeper, isn't he?
• 22:29
  I'm going to sign you off. Leon, give you an opinion. This is your craft? No, it's not. I'm a punchy boxer. You're the footballer. Come on. He's a centre forward or a goalie, he tells me. So, come on. I'm a forward, but I'm not a footballer. He's the footballer. I'm the punchy goal. I saw you at soccer, eh? You had a good 10 minutes. And it was absolutely horrific. Honestly, of those 15 shots that came your way, you did well to keep one of them out. Yeah, you did really, really well. Brilliant.
• 22:54
  Come on, short face. What did you think? At the time, I mean, it would have surprised him because it surprised everybody. I think, yeah, he's been criticised for not maybe getting his arm up. At first, I thought,
• 23:06
  I thought it was a difficult one for him to save. In hindsight, I don't think he stretches all the way. I think just for a moment, I think he thinks that's a cross. It's going to go wide. And I think by the time he thinks it's got a chance of going in, I think it's too late. Do I think it's a mistake? Partially. Would it have caught most goalkeepers out? Definitely. So it's a difficult one. I think when it comes to goalkeeping...
• 23:29
  This is what I always say. If they do all the basics right and keep out 80% to 90% of the ones you'd expect them to, then I'll always take that of a goalkeeper. And then if they can pull out some worldies here or there, you'll take that. And that was one of those grey area, unexpected ones. No one's expecting it. It reminds you of not quite to the same extent, but the David Seaman one. Well, it wasn't right. To a slight extent. Yeah, I don't think it was as bad as that.
• 23:57
  But it just reminds you, just being caught out by something. I just think it's unlucky. It's not a shot and you're just like, come on. But it is what it is. It's football at the highest levels. It's strange and freaky things happening. Let me tell you, it's quite easy to explain when it comes to Jordan Pickett. He's going to save you far more time than he's going to cost you. Yeah, 100%. It still winds me up.
• 24:19
  And surprises me when he's getting criticism. He's easily the best English goalkeeper in the country. Easily. And potentially the best of all time. He's got to be in the conversation. Just for his longevity. Just for his longevity and his being a part of teams that get to latter stages. And yes, he plays for Everton instead of Barcelona. But...
• 24:42
  He's done absolutely outstanding. He's kept us up single-handedly at times in the Premier League. If we never had Jordan Pippen, we'd have been relegated twice, not once. Yeah. He's been a joke. So, no, I don't get on board with people who say he's not in the same bracket as Alisson and Don Rummer. I think he's up there. I think Alisson's got a rick in him. Yes, he makes some good saves. I think Liverpool bias keeps him near the very top and the amount that there are. Yeah, so that frustrates me. But...
• 25:11
  Here's the big question of the night, because I didn't notice it until it was shown after the game. Did you see the ball hit that wire, hit the camera wire? Did you notice it at all during the game?
• 25:22
  Liam, you're looking blank. You've not seen the press. You still don't even know what I'm talking about. I haven't seen this now. What's this? So England's goal, right? Yeah. When the goalkeeper kicks off just before half-time, you know the way you've got this spider cam with the wires that come from all the corner and it holds the camera in place? High in the sky. Yeah, the goalkeeper kicks the ball and it's going probably into half-time.
• 25:46
  And it seems to hit something and drop at a different angle. It hit the wire and dropped down to, I think it was Elliot Anderson who controls it. Their players are caught out because the flight of the ball changes. He runs up, plays it to Gordon, who plays it to Bellingham, and we score straight away. Their goalkeeper, their manager are running up to the referee, complaining that it hit the wire. Surely.
• 26:06
  When it's supposed to be, we got away with one. And the chip in the ball that registered hitting a hair follicle only last week for Croatia against Portugal, registered a hair follicle, didn't manage to register the change in direction that this ball hit from hitting this wire, which pretty much anyone can see. The chip in the ball just didn't register. I'm not complaining.
• 26:31
  Sometimes you need a little bit of luck to win a tournament. Oh, it is a huge bit of luck. And we did get luck at the time because that couldn't, well, should have, in hindsight, been a free kick to them. And if we don't score before half-time, wow, that is...
• 26:47
  That is an incredibly difficult game for us. I'm not sure if we get over the line. And then Haaland's free kick against Anderson. Yeah, it can be given, but I thought that was generous as well. That could have gone either way. When you consider what's going on in this World Cup and the way referees have been letting things go, I thought, I was saying to the lads, that's not a free kick in this World Cup.
• 27:11
  I said before this World Cup, that's a free kick, but when you're going on what's been going on this World Cup and just judging it by the same standard the whole week, which I think I agree with Oz now, the referee in this World Cup has been brilliant. I've really enjoyed it. Let it play on. Get up, lad. Get off the floor. Stop jumping on the floor, screaming around for nothing. When you've been shoulder barged in the back and you're jumping down on your knee and you've been shoulder barged in the back.
• 27:31
  I think it's been fantastic what the referees have done. So, yeah, I have to say, I think we were most lucky there. What did you think about Jed Spencer's penalty shelves when he came on? Did you see that where he dribbled in and he put his body in front of the wall? Yeah, I thought he did brilliant. I thought it's a penalty kick when it was given. I thought he's bought that because I still believe he's bought it.
• 27:58
  I don't think it's... Look, in England, I don't think that's getting... In the Premier League, I don't think that's getting overturned because I think we've now got to a point where I think that would be beyond the threshold. There's contact, the referee's given it. And I was surprised that it got overturned. I think they're a little bit more... They want to get involved in VAR in this World Cup. The referees are trying to let things go. The VAR are getting involved a bit more, just like the Argentinian goal for the... Sorry, the Egyptian goal that got disallowed for...
• 28:26
  You know, standing on Lizissandro Martinez's toe, brought that free kick back, which was terrible. So they are wanting to get involved. I didn't think it should have been. But having got the goal from the wire and having had Haaland's goal, oh, sorry, that goal disallowed for the Haaland foul, it's...
• 28:42
  My conscience could live with that. My chest, I could live with that one getting took off. It was just, you know, I didn't think we could be too greedy. I don't think it was a pen. And you can't give it off this World Cup, what's been getting given. You can't give that, sorry.
• 29:00
  Well, once it has been given, I don't think it should be overturned. I don't think it's a huge mistake. I think he's done a good run. He's jumped in front, yeah. He's done what defenders do to it. You know, like when a defender's trying to run the ball out in the corner and he just steps in front of the attacker and the attacker barges in his back or gets in his leg and it goes down. It's one of them where they get given all the time in this case to the defenders. I'm not sure they do for strikers, but that one was given. So I didn't think it was enough that you can overturn it, but...
• 29:29
  Hey-ho, I didn't want to be greedy, and we hung on to actually see the game through, which was as nervous as I've been in watching England for a while, to be honest, but it was a good one. I was even more nervous for that than I was for Mexico. Yeah, definitely, definitely. So what are you thinking then ahead of Argentina? More nervous for that? Well, I said that...
• 29:54
  In the last pod, I was more nervous for us playing Norway than Argentina. I thought Norway had some things to hurt us. Haaland didn't quite look himself. Rumour has it that he was ill. He'd been ill for a few days before. That was why they took him off at the end as well. He lacked energy. Maybe that was another bit of fortune if it was for us. I don't know. I think we'll do all right against Argentina. They've got some great players, but they rely on Messi, don't they? He isn't a bad player to rely on, I suppose. We all enjoy watching him.
• 30:19
  I think we might have enough for them. I really do. I don't know what you think, Tony. We need to, mate. We should do. Listen, younger legs. There's one thing that no one can deny. The father time waits for no one. And I don't care how good he is. And he is. He's the greatest player ever. But you can see the legs just aren't there for 90 minutes. It's in short bursts, little moments of magic. And I just feel he's at the most controllable he's ever been right now.
• 30:48
  Oof. I hope we're not talking about that in a bad way next week. I hope I'm saying well done. I just think, compared to him five, ten years ago, you aren't stopping him. Like, he is the unstoppable object, Oz. You're not stopping him. You can put two men on him. He figures it out. He works his way around. But at least now, he's not legging anyone.
• 31:12
  He's not getting it. So it's going to have to be purely something special and magic. And if you put a man on him that doesn't leave him and make him culpable, I just believe that's the way. Like I said, put two on Harland. Just put one on him. Declan Rice, go and take him out the game, mate. He's your man, he's your job. And that might be very daunting to some players, but I don't think it will be to Declan Rice. I think Declan Rice will go, you know what, I'll have a bit of that.
• 31:42
  Yeah, it's a good argument in terms of do you go and man mark him. Because of what you've just said, though, because he doesn't run around that much and he does work in moments, he has real bursts, like bursts. He'll be one out of ten. He'll be walking around the pitch and then suddenly he's giving you a ten out of ten moment. Yeah. I don't know whether it's worth marking them because they don't just appear all up. He's not appearing in random places all over the pitch. He's not.
• 32:10
  sort of, you know, running the game constantly where you literally have to go mark him out the game. He doesn't get himself involved for the big chunks. Do you waste a player by getting him to man mark when this guy doesn't even get involved for 80% of the game? Every player's looking for, like every player literally. That's true, yeah. You get their head up and the first person they're looking for is him and I get it because if we had man, we'd be looking for it as well. But I just think if you've got a man touched tight with him for 90 minutes, I'm sorry, he ain't doing it.
• 32:39
  I think that helps in terms of if they're best players who have got real quality of their own and not actually trying to do things themselves, they just want to look for Messi all the time. Maybe that helps us. Maybe that's easier to stop. That's been the story of the Argentina. They've just looked for them every day. I haven't seen anything. I mean, Portugal weren't even as bad as Argentina doing it.
• 33:00
  because Portugal were at least going to Bruno Fernandes, mixing out, going out wide, looking for different... Whereas every time I've watched Argentina so far, they get on the ball and they look for him. And I'm not knocking, I'm not blaming him, because he's a wonderful player, but it's quite clear to me, I mean, he has to literally...
• 33:16
  turn us back on them for them not to give a ball to him. He has to literally not be in sight anywhere or he's not anywhere for them not to give it to him. Like, they just get the ball, if it's not a Messi, like, you don't know where to go. I think a few of the attacking players have popped up a little bit. Enzo Fernandes seems to have switched on a little bit. Alvarez popped up with a goal. He just seems to be a top player in Argentina, Enzo Fernandes, doesn't he? I don't think, I think he's getting better for Chelsea. I think he's a good player for Chelsea, but,
• 33:44
  The Enzo Fernandez who plays for Argentina seems to be a different player.
• 33:48
  He really raises his game, doesn't he? I thought he was very good for Chelsea last season. Most of the time he played, he was very good. I only know that because he was in my fantasy football team almost all season. And he was picked on a regular basis. So, yeah, I do think he's a very good player. I don't think he'll be at Chelsea for longer, if I'm being totally honest. What do you think about their defence, Argentina's defence? Because I'm not convinced. They've got...
• 34:16
  They've got two very erratic centre-halves who, when they're playing with a steady centre-half alongside them, look absolutely lost and look crazy because they keep doing erratic things next to a steady centre-half. But it seems like if you put two really erratic centre-halves next to each other who could do anything in any moment, it works.
• 34:36
  because they seem to be able to defend a lot better for Argentina because they both do the most random things. They both run here, there and everywhere. They'll run forward, score goals, overhead kicks in the opposition's penalty area. Just things that, you know, when I'm watching Tottenham especially and I'm thinking Romero, he looks out of his depth half the time, but putting him in an Argentina shirt and...
• 35:01
  he just seems to grow six inches and gets two seconds faster in a 40-yard sprint and everything he does just seems to work. I don't mind Lissandro Martinez alongside him. I think he's a decent centre-half, if not undersized, but they just work brilliantly together. I don't know. Maybe the fact that our players know him, know them, know that they can pull them into certain areas, they've played against them on a regular basis in the Premier League, maybe we can take advantage of that.
• 35:29
  undersized is an understatement so he's the only fella you genuinely beat in an aerial challenge mate like you I'm picking I'm picking you I was a big man at corners mate get a good yourself big man I'm picking you just like Alexis McAllister right Alexis McAllister was like that he pops up with a few yeah he pops up with a few headers doesn't he he does I'm not having them at the back
• 35:58
  I think the danger is obviously the midfield to the forwards at the back. Like you've just said, erratic players. And erratic players tend to make big mistakes and crazy challenges. And I just think that Martinez looks like an angry little man, mate. And I just feel when he comes up against Kane, Kane should be far too much for him. Yeah, I think we're all out of smart them.
• 36:18
  Sorry, Liam. How do you feel about the Argentina rivalry? You know, like, it's historic. The Falklands. It's 2000. Well, everything that comes with it, the 66 semi-final, obviously the Falklands, the Hand of God, the Beckham game, there's a hell of a lot of rivalry between the two countries. And yet...
• 36:40
  The stat is Messi's never played a game against England. And my kids have never seen, our kids are 21, and younger Tony, our kids have never seen England play against Argentina. In their lifetimes, it's bad. Michael on that moment against them.
• 36:57
  I think this is our biggest rivalry. I think it's a bigger rivalry than us v Germany. I'm 31, so I would say Germany from my generation is more of the rivalry. So my first World Cup that I remember is 2002 where Ronaldinho scores the free kick. We didn't really have that rivalry with Argentina. I must have been about seven around that time. So my generation haven't really seen that Argentina versus England battle.
• 37:22
  Yeah, and that's what I'm talking about. So I wanted to ask you that. How did you feel? How do you feel about this rivalry? Argentinians...
• 37:33
  We are a big rivalry for Argentina. I mean, you talk about the Falcons. I don't want to get into politics. This isn't a part of politics. But Argentina have only fought one and a half wars in their history. And that was the Falcons against us. They didn't take part in the World Wars. They didn't take part in other things. So they're big rivalries against us. I fought a fellow once called Roberto Balanzi. He'd come over there from Argentina. And I gave him a right good item. But I tell you what, mate, he'd have the biggest gash on me face I've ever seen.
• 38:02
  20 stitches, jammed, guessed it, dropped him twice in the first two rounds. Was on my way to stopping him in the third round. And then he closed his eyes, thrown a left hook, and opened up another arsehole above me forehead.
• 38:15
  My eyebrow, I'm talking to you, 20 stitches, 10 in and out. So that made three? Jesus. Mate, yeah. That's what it does. But yeah, it made unbelievable. I just think we're too much for these. I don't care who they've got, what they're going to do. I just think we're riding the crest of a wave. And I just think this tournament is all set up.
• 38:38
  For us. I think we get past Argentina. I'm not going to say comfortably, but I think we beat them better than we beat Argentina. Because I couldn't see a game without Haaland penetrating us, and I can't believe he didn't, but we found a way. I just think Thomas Tuchel will have a plan for Messi. Because they will see how much the ball goes through him and how much it goes to him. And they will just be like...
• 39:05
  If we shut him down, it makes other players take on the responsibility that, with all honesty, they don't look like they all want to take. I think they're giving him the ball because he's the king, he's the man of the moment, he's the god for them. And I just feel if we can shut him down, who else is going to risk being him?
• 39:23
  Yeah, look, they've got quality players and you have to stop Messi first and foremost. But look, Switzerland stopped him. So eventually other people stepped up and scored goals. If I'm going quality beat quality, I honestly think our team and squad's got more than theirs. I think we've got enough. What worries me is, you know, we're talking about England's mentality to get to where we are. Rightly so, they find a way to win their battlers. They'll go to war. They'll get it all done the way they have done. Argentina have got that too.
• 39:50
  Scaloni's really put that within their squad. They've been behind a good few times in this competition. They were behind by two goals to Egypt with 10 minutes to go. They were behind to Cape Verde a couple of times, going into Exeter. They'll find a way to win. They've got that real naus, hunger, nastiness. Should we call it bending the rules of the game as much as they can?
• 40:13
  They're horrible, Os. They're horrible. Simeone epitomises Argentina. He's horrible. They're just an horrible group. That's what worries me. And we've got to, if we're going to play them, we've got to find a way through that as well. If we are winning the game,
• 40:29
  In the latter stages, they'll get nasty. If we are losing the game, they will frustrate, torment, go down. They'll do all of that. And ultimately, that brings me back to the rivalry. And I would much rather Germany win a World Cup than Argentina. I really, really would. Everyone gets on board with Messi. And you look about Argentina...
• 40:49
  And you look at the history of Argentina, and people have always worn Argentines. They wore a Maradona shirt. Yeah, unbelievable player. Not a nice man, but unbelievable player. Messi, unbelievable player. I think they're the only two reasons you'd wear an Argentina shirt. Argentina's history, again, I'm not going political here, is not great.
• 41:09
  Honestly, go back and do your research on Argentina's history if you want to know about their culture and this. And I'm not sitting here on the pod trying to upset Argentinian people. I'm sure many of them are nice, but the history of Argentina is clouded and you see it pop out occasionally. And our rivalry with them as well. Me personally, this is a huge game, I think. I think we've got to win this. And again, go back, I'd rather Germany won the World Cup than Argentina. I really would.
• 41:36
  That's a big show. There's a big show. Yeah, I'd go the other way on that, or driving Argentina than Germany. But going back to football-wise, I think we'll outsmart them, hopefully. I think our squad is very level-headed. And even if they do try and do the dark arts, I think we've got enough in our team to just let that slide. A little bit like what France did. I know it's a lesser nation in terms of football, in terms of when France played Paraguay. And they just cracked on, did the job. I think we'll do the same against Argentina.
• 42:05
  Doesn't that worry is that that's what we haven't got in England team, the shithousery of other teams? I think Bellingham does it a little bit. I just don't see them jump on the floor. The shithousery stuff, I just don't see them. I don't see someone. Who in the England team are you going to see? Harry Kane's trying to get off the floor before he's even hit it. So who's going to see who's going to jump on the deck and go, he's hit me or he's slapped me or he's kicked me? Like...
• 42:34
  You know what? Let's look at it this way. Remember what David Beckham does with Diego Simeone? I would guarantee you 100% if that was any of the England players in that team, not one of them would have reacted like Diego Simeone. I can hand on Art to say that. In the team of that day, yeah, in the England team we had out that day, I probably agree with that. I think we've changed a little bit. I think Anthony Gordon doesn't mind going down in the moments. Yeah, I'll give you that one. Gordon might do it. I'll give you that one.
• 43:02
  We get out near those situations. He's getting a bit for us. I think he might be the only one of us. I'd say Jordan will do it, if need be. I don't know. I think Jordan's the same. Jordan does it at the right times. Yeah, a little bit of time-wasting. Yeah, but it's time-wasting and all that. That's not shit-housing. You know what shit-housing is. Listen, you audible fucker. Yeah, on set-up.
• 43:24
  and he's done absolutely nothing. I mean, David Beckham basically tickled Diego Simeone's leg. I mean, it was the most pointless thing I've ever seen. He brought his leg off the floor and tapped the other man's calf, and he jumped on the deck like he'd been shot. Harry Kane, I think, sneakily, he's got a little...
• 43:42
  In terms of trying to get people sent off and stuff. Messi's got it in him. And I love that game. I think Kane's got it a little bit in him. I'm not saying... We haven't got it as much as they've got it. But we have got it a little bit. And maybe we need to step up our game. But I don't want to... I'm not sitting here thinking because...
• 43:58
  If I'm being honest, England games in the tournament so far and Argentina's games in the tournament so far have probably been the most entertaining. So put us in the game together, it could be a really, really good game because neither team's strength is defended. I don't want to sit here and wish it's going to turn out into a game of shithousery. And hopefully once someone gets sent off, they ruin the game, don't they? Don't want it to be a pantomime, do we? No, I don't want it to be that pantomime. You can't beat them, join them.
• 44:28
  I'm all for it. No, you're probably right. There will be moments in the game where we have to. There could be a one big moment. I hope we're up for it. I hope we're up to it. But I don't want to sit here and wish for it. No, I don't. But if someone, if Gordon gets done, well, I don't even worry about him. He will 100% do it. If Gordon gets done, he's not getting off the floor. He will roll around for 15 minutes.
• 44:49
  But if someone does Kane and doesn't go in proper, I feel like Kane can get himself out like he's done him. But I suppose VAR now and all this shit, it doesn't really matter, does it? Because VAR's going to go back over it that many times. It makes no sense. I mean, that one with Kwanzaa, that shows you all you need to know. Because that referee didn't even give a free kick in real time. And they went back and completely went over it. And he's banned for two full games. I mean, don't get me wrong. As long as the American boy doesn't get banned and gets a suspended ban. Right.