Latest / UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show / Leaving Cargill to Start SeaThrew Marine: Eman Abdalla on How Shipping Can Become More Responsible
Transcript
- Eman Abdalla: I think shipping today, it needs two things and two things only. It needs courage, to stop protecting. Outdated philosophies and processes, just because this is how things have been done in the past. And it needs collaboration big time because no single player can solve all of the industry's challenges by themselves. Shipping is fragmented, but guess what? It has been fragmented by design. Raal: Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of Undocked. Hello Nick. Nick Chubb: Hello, Ral, how are you? Raal: I'm doing great and a big hello to our very special guest this week, Eman Abdalla Emin hello. Eman Abdalla: Hello Raal and hello Nick. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Raal: Well, we're delighted to have, I've only been trying for a year to get you on. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: But I never gave up hope, Evan. That's the main thing. And one day, Nick Chubb: He's very persistent. Eman Abdalla: There you go. Raal: came back and said, yes, you would. But to be fair, you have been busy. And we'll get into what you've been doing now. At the time, you said, well, I'm a little bit preoccupied with my new venture. So we'll find out all about that. But before we do, you're a very well-known figure in maritime. But there will be people out there in our... listen to the show that perhaps are not aware of you. if we could start with a brief introduction of who you are and your current position and we'll go from there. Eman Abdalla: Sure. So yeah, so lot of people are going to get surprised by me saying that shipping actually found me rather than the other way around. I never grew up with a grand plan to spend my life in maritime. Instead, it was all by sheer coincidence. But guess what? Once I entered the industries, I never really looked back. I've spent more than 30 years across maritime transportation, commodity, logistics, and global supply chains. from leading marine and logistics at Emirates Global Aluminium to global operations at supply chain at cargo ocean transportation operating at a scale of hundreds of vessels. And today I am the founder and CEO of SeeThrough based in Switzerland and the UAE. As well, I serve on several boards and advisory roles. across the maritime industry. So Raal: Yeah. Eman Abdalla: yeah, that's the brief version. Nick Chubb: Wha Raal: Well that's it. Nick Chubb: what was the coincidence? You said it you said it was a Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: coincidence. There must I it feels like there's a story there. Eman Abdalla: There is a bit of a story. So yeah, so I grew up most of my childhood in the US and then my dad, my parents were university professors and extremely patriotic and they insisted that we go back. So my Arabic wasn't necessarily that strong. And during university, you know, me trying to pursue a career as a writer, after second year, I was getting a bit restless and bored. So I was looking for a summer job and a good friend of mine said, okay, I have a friend who could offer you a summer internship. I said, great, but in Arabic, the word shipping comes from the word salt. So I was under the impression that I'm actually going to a salt factory. yes, believe it or not. So I go to the interview. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, Ahmed, where is the factory? It's an office and all I see is pictures of chips and stuff like that. It's like, Iman, you're embarrassing me. It's shipping. It's not a salt factory. So yes. Nick Chubb: That's incredible. Raal: Were you passionate to work in salt? Is this an unfulfilled ambition? Eman Abdalla: You Raal: Will you return to salt at Stamford? Eman Abdalla: No, think the closest I'm going to get to salt is through the sea and through maritime and through shipping, let's put it that way. Raal: Compliance in maritime is too often treated as a constraint. Done properly, it's the foundation for better operational performance. The real barrier isn't the regulation. It's fragmented data and inconsistent standards which make compliance manual, slow, and reactive. Standardize the data and strengthen the governance, and compliance starts improving data quality and reducing inefficiency across the fleet, instead of just sitting on top of it. Compliance isn't the anchor holding the fleet back, it's the keel that keeps it stable. And lets you move faster with more confidence. Build compliance into every workflow with insight. Follow the link in the episode description. Eman Abdalla: But yeah, but what an industry. I couldn't have been more fortunate. I couldn't have been luckier, to be honest, because I think it suited my personality and it suited who I am and what is fulfilling for me. Although at that point, because I was only what 18, 19 years old, I didn't even know that this is what I was actually seeking. So no dull moment, extremely intense, extremely challenging industry, yet the most fulfilling. And I've always said, this is an industry that either you love it or you hate it. There is no in-between. Raal: Yeah, it's amazing. We've done a fair few of these interviews now and it does always follow a pattern. It's either family kind of connection somebody, you know, it's in the blood sort of for many generations or it's just an act of complete random accident Nick Chubb: An accident. Raal: that, but what you're saying there really echoes with me because I think very similar thing. I would never have, you know, dreamed of kind of being involved and never even thought about it, the shipping industry, but the minute that I kind of found myself in it. you sort of feel like you found your people or whatever, it? You talked a little bit there about sort of what's kind of kept you interested in shipping But what's kept you in, because that's 30 years, it's that I'm sure they could have gone off in many different directions, like salt, for example, you missed out on that. But like, you know. There's probably a lot of different directions you could have gone in with the experience that you've accumulated. What's kept you in shipping for the last 30 Eman Abdalla: Yeah, think what kept me in the industry is its vast diversity, right? I mean, I've touched and I've worked throughout so many different segments that every day is bringing a new layer and a level of complexity and a new challenge. I started off in the container segment, then moved into bulk, dry, then wet. then oil and gas, then came back to dry. So I think it's the variety of the segments. And then the time also that I've spent at Emirates Global Aluminium, and this was the first time that I actually jumped fence from being on the pure shipping side to manufacturing conglomerate, and to understand and to go into the commodity world and bring those two worlds together. I think that was quite pivotal and that was the most rewarding. And then another big challenge was obviously moving to cargo, a much, much bigger scale and a whole different set of different commodities and different challenges and so forth going into the ag business predominantly because that was obviously the core business that we were shipping and trading. So yeah, it is just so vast. And here I am today with my recent appointment. on the Azerbaijan holding company board. Again, still getting exposed to new challenges, new sets of complexities. Had you asked me a few years ago about the Caspian Sea and its intricacies or the middle corridor, I would have probably been quite, you know, I wouldn't have had a lot of information. But so again, today I'm being faced with new challenges. So it has been extremely. extremely rewarding to say the least. Nick Chubb: I think one of the funny things about shipping is the more time you spend in it and the more you learn, the more you realise you don't know. and I think Eman Abdalla: Yes. Nick Chubb: that's a great example of a of a that's a there's Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: a whole world you know, in in in these little niches of the industry that until you get exposed to them you just don't even know they exist. Eman Abdalla: Absolutely. And also, at what scale are you operating? So throughout the 30 years, I have done from the most, I started off obviously doing the most basic, simple tasks all the way to becoming an executive at one of the largest operators globally and working at quite a macro and strategic level. But with founding my own company, you know, I had to pivot and once again go back to all of the nitty gritty details, things that I have missed and things that I haven't been doing for such a long time. So guess what? Even today with with see through as a founder and as a new company and a new entity, I'm learning things all over again because this is a new venture. And I'm going into areas that perhaps I haven't touched in the past. Raal: That seems like a good time to get into what you are doing now. So let's talk about C2. Let's talk about what is it that you're actually doing there as the business. Eman Abdalla: So see through I think is a culmination of my past 30 years of experience in a nutshell to be honest with you. It was a transition by design. And I'm quite fortunate that after being in the industry for so long and taking on so many different roles, I have been given the opportunity to choose, okay, what am I going to do next? What do I build from here? And it was a conscious decision. And it's interesting because Most of the people that know me and heard about my departure from Cargill, everybody reached out to me and said, okay, are you finally do what you've been dreaming to do, which is to launch my own venture? And the answer was, yes, I don't know how, I don't know where to start from, but this is the plan. So it brings together my experience across cargo ownership, chartering operations, logistics, governance strategy. with obviously execution at the center of it all, to offer something bespoke to my existing clients and customers, a curated service, an end-to-end service. So it's, we're not just a broker. We're definitely not a management consulting company. Instead, we are our customers and our clients partners. we're delivering end-to-end service. And it depends on their requirements. You have some customers that have already quite well established shipping departments, and they need us to come in, for example, to provide them or to develop the strategy and execution plans where... A to Z. Raal: And when you talk about your customers there, just to kind of give people a sense of who typically are your customers. Eman Abdalla: Yeah, yes, the mentions are Yeah. So at first when I launched see-through, I launched it with with one goal and one goal only, which is hoping to to give back. That's number one, hoping to make an impact and to make a difference. And I realized from the onset that the only way that I could do that is to own my own assets and operate my own assets. and then from a timing perspective, obviously, you know, the war happened and started and and asset prices, it wasn't necessarily the right time. So I needed to again be quite agile and to pivot. So I said, okay, although see through is all about we own, we operate, we charter and we advise, okay. If I cannot own immediately right now, I'm gonna operate, I'm gonna charter, and I'm gonna advise. So my customers are everything from ship owners to industrial customers to trading companies. So and everything in between. Raal: That's pretty ambitious for a first venture. Nick Chubb: Mm. Eman Abdalla: Yes. Raal: Is it sort of, you thinking like go big or go home? Is that the thought? Eman Abdalla: yes, yes, absolutely, one hundred percent. I'm you know, I'm on a mission, let's put it that way, and that mission ultimately is to make a difference. Raal: Yes you did actually. Go ahead Nick. Nick Chubb: Just just on that, you you you said to to be able to make a difference and have an impact and and to be able to give back owning and operating is important. And I can I can see the logic in that. But for the for the audience, could you explain why you feel that's so important? Because I I can see if I Eman Abdalla: Yeah. Okay. Nick Chubb: th think about the shipowners perspective, we have a lot of shipowners that come on on this show. and often the I don't want to say the blame, but responsibility for decisions goes back towards the charterers. effectively saying, Eman Abdalla: Okay. Nick Chubb: their hands are tied by decisions that get made by the charterer. It's really interesting to hear someone coming from the chartering world who's saying if we want to have a real impact we need to own and operate. So could you perhaps just explain what are the things that you felt like you weren't able to do from a charterer's seat that you feel you would be able to do as an owner or operator? Eman Abdalla: Yeah, so I'll I'll give you two different perspectives from a from an from an operator perspective. And during my time at Cargo, and although we had one of the largest tribal fleets of over 700 ships, but in the end, we were not the owners and we were not the decision makers. We could influence decision making by having very stringent standards. but at the same time, that doesn't mean that we are ultimately the decision makers. And that in is in respect to safety. seafarers well being and so forth. And my other role at Emirates Global Aluminium, we were pure charters. And that meant that my impact only went as far as the age of the vessel, perhaps the right ship rating, yes. But does that really qualify, you know, the right safety standards? Does that really qualify as seafarer well being and You know, and taking care of the seafarers? Absolutely not. And in fact, because also I sit on the board of one of the largest ship management companies, you know, ironically, the decision making doesn't even sit with the ship management companies. Again, they are a part of the puzzle, but they're not the decision maker. So then I realized that for me to be able to make the right decisions, I actually have to own the asset. It's not a matter of influence. I've been trying to influence as much as I could. But even with through you know, associations, for example, like the Global Maritime Forum, through different conferences, through the All Aboard Alliance, that's great. But these associations and these forums are only representing what, 15, 20 percent, 25% maximum of the rest of the industry. And I've always said it's not about who's in the room and who's agreeing with me. It's actually about how do we implement the change that we want to implement across the wider industry. Everybody that never comes to the room and doesn't even want to listen to this conversation because the only thing that they're looking at is their PL and whether they can afford to make the right choices or not. Raal: I think that strikes me as a very interesting thing to have gone into this venture Eman Abdalla: So I don't see it. Raal: and the first thought not be how can I make all the numbers work straight away, but actually have this broader view. And it doesn't surprise me knowing you because when I first saw you on stage a few years ago, you were representing Cargill and you were talking from a sustainability, human sustainability and broader sustainability, environmental sustainability as well. Eman Abdalla: I'm also the white cars on the head. Raal: You gave a very good presentation there, which is when I came and introduced myself to you. And I knew I could see then that you were very, passionate about this, but you were working within a very big organization, like you mentioned there, 800 vessels that you've got and all that weight of industry kind of heft that Cargill has to be able to, you know, it's not uncommon for big organizations to have that sustainability focus. It's a bit of a different thing to go to what is effectively a startup. Eman Abdalla: So she are Jerusalem. Thanks for explaining so I can Raal: and immediately set yourself those conditions. So can you talk a little bit about that? mean, that strikes me as quite unusual to put that on the masthead from day one. Eman Abdalla: Yeah, I mean, okay, if we're if we're if I'm sitting in front of potential investors, for example, obviously the numbers still have to make sense. Because in the end, if I want to exist, I don't know, 10 years from today or 20 years from today, I have to in the end have a commercially viable business. But at the same time, I think what I'm trying to differentiate myself with by saying and by doing is one should not necessarily compromise the other. there are so many ways for us to achieve our ultimate goal. Our ultimate goal, I was once on a panel. I think it was a a rightship event, if I'm not mistaken, and someone from the audience asked, Would you be comfortable if one of your children wants to go to sea. And I had to be very honest and say no, I wouldn't be comfortable. I have three children and until today, I don't think that our industry is safe enough for me to actually promote and encourage my own children to go to sea so then what is my mandate and what is my goal? My goal is for as long as I'm around, for as long as I am in this industry, is to try to make a difference so that We can be as close as possible that everyone, all the parents out there would actually be proud and comfortable and be able to sleep on night if their children were out at sea. Raal: I think it's a very refreshing perspective. There's a lot of things, lots of people say it, Eman Abdalla: Okay. Raal: they're not perhaps quite put it into operation. now that you are in charge of that and you've got some influence that you wanted, what are the kinds of things that you're doing to ensure that? Eman Abdalla: Like that cars the library so I think number one is how can we use technology to our advantage? some of the things that I had started while I was with Cargill and I'm definitely very, very keen to continue is do we use today's technology to our advantage. drones, for example. how can we avoid having seafarers go into closed spaces that are completely unsoul? how can we use AI and technology to revamp and redesign our business processes? Because that's the real transformation, so that we can make better decisions. Yes, voyage optimization is great to save. On fuel cost, absolutely. And that is obviously linked to D carb, but it should also be as important data collection, intelligence, and making the right decisions have to, in the end, come back to seafarer well-being and seafarer safety. Yeah. You have we have right now, as we speak, a lot of examples where. Owners slash shotters slash traders are actually sending ships in harm's way, knowing the potential risk and not blinking and not thinking twice about it. So I think as an industry, you know, there is a mandate for us to collectively come together. And that's why I think shipping today, it needs two things and two things only. It needs courage, courage to stop protecting. Outdated philosophies and processes, just because this is how things have been done in the past. And it needs collaboration big time because no single player can solve all of the industry's challenges by themselves. Shipping is fragmented, but guess what? It has been fragmented by design. The winners will have to connect that fragmentation. But without losing operational accountability in the end. Nick Chubb: It's interesting you described it as fragmented by design because I feel like there's almost a... shared helplessness between all the different Eman Abdalla: Also Nick Chubb: parties that exist in the kind of maritime supply chain whether it's the owner or the manager or the charterer everyone sort of points at the other stakeholder and says you know it's it's not quite my decision I can't make this decision on my own I can't make this investment on my own and I think your point around courage is interesting because I feel like people for the most part don't necessarily Eman Abdalla: I've done some of this for Nick Chubb: actively choose on day one to sort of make decisions that might put people in harm's way. I feel like maybe it's something that the industry kind of wears people down over time. So I'd be interested to know how do you see that happening? How does an organization sort of end up with a culture where it's, or an industry end up with a culture where it becomes easy or easier to potentially put people in harm's way than it is to make potentially the more difficult decision? Eman Abdalla: Yeah, I heard something very, very simple a few weeks ago and it resonated with me. And I and I want to keep that, you know, at the center of everything that I do. How you do one thing is actually how you do everything. So it it starts with the smallest decisions, but up to the most strategic and important decisions. Is safety embedded into a company's culture? Is safety something that is taken into account in every part of the decision making? fixing a ship is great, but what makes a great trader, a great trader is not just fixing, you know, you know, the time charter rate per day and that's it. No, it's actually going through all the terms and conditions and all of the important clauses. Because that's a different discussion on how long our charter parties are and and and how we need to standardize them, but that's another discussion. But how to make sure that we are when we are negotiating a deal, that we are negotiating negotiating it in in its entirety, but also in all the small details that when push comes to shove, when I'm in a situation, I could actually make the right decisions, that I'm not influenced. Because my hands are tied because of one clause versus the other, that I'm not incentivized to make decisions that are not necessarily aligned with my core values. That that is huge and that's a huge differentiator. That makes a huge difference. And when you start in your day-to-day business, in your operations, in your execution, in your when you're contracting, and then make sure that all of this is rolled up all the way up to your company strategy, I think only then will I feel at least a bit more comfortable that you're heading in the right direction. Raal: thought it was at first an interesting choice of words, courage, but I think just been reflecting on it for a moment. think it's like very often we have a situation where if you try and do something different, you're likely to get punished if it doesn't go wrong, right? If it doesn't go right, sorry. And it's the easy road to keep things Nick Chubb: Thank Eman Abdalla: I think something like one short. Raal: as they always were because no one's gonna sack you for kind of going with established practice and all that sort of stuff. Eman Abdalla: Is gonna work Raal: So I think that for me is a good indication of where the courage is required to actually say, I don't care what we've done in the past, I know it's wrong. I know it's not leading to the outcomes we want to see and being bold enough to put your neck on the line because you don't know whether the new thing you're going to try is going to, maybe has no track record, right? But you believe Eman Abdalla: or not? Raal: it does and you've done your best. Do you think we, would you agree with that? That we tend to sort of stick with these things that we know. Eman Abdalla: Yeah. Raal: We just go through the motions. know they're not right, they it's too. Yeah, we're not brave enough to get away from them. Is that kind of what you meant by courage? Yeah. Eman Abdalla: Absolutely. And and and we are we are creatures of habit, by the way. This is part of human nature. we ha we are naturally inclined to continue doing what is familiar to us and what we have been doing all along. It's extremely rare to find people that want to go out of the norm and not stick to their old habits. And that's why when we talk about change management and when we talk about transformation, for example, what is the hardest thing? The hardest thing is not to have successful pilots, by the way. If you have, I don't know, you know, a new system that you're trying to deploy. No, the hardest thing is to have the wider team adopt a new system and change their habits and change the underlying processes. So when you talk to me about transformation, whether it's digital or any kind of transformation or even decarb. it's not just about, you know, okay, you know, rolling out something. No, it's actually how you integrate it, how you implement it, how you make it part of people's day-to-day new habits. And this even also applies on diversity. How many companies take the box And say, you know, we we've hit our diversity targets, but have they really hit it? Are they integrating the different variety of men and women? Because diversity could either be, you know, by gender or by culture, or or are you actually painting them with the same brush that you already have as a company? Or are you allowing them to be who they are? And benefiting from that new, fresh perspective in your decision making. Nick Chubb: you're raising such interesting areas that I can't constantly carry themes on this show. The whole kind of idea of the show really is maritime transformation. And I'm wondering whether you could actually take us back through your time at Cargill. the things you're talking about are... All of them are hard, they're relatively easy in a smaller start-up organisation because you have a blank sheet of paper. An organisation the scale of Cargill, any kind of transformation is difficult. So what was the organisation like when you arrived? And then what was the kind of journey you went on and what was it like at the time of your departure? Eman Abdalla: So I will talk about specifically about my team in particular. number one, I think Jan is is is someone that I have so much respect for. Why? Because he actually just by bringing me into Cargill, I think that in itself was was a signal to the industry that he is willing to take a risk and bring in someone who's a female, a very different background and so forth, and put her in a big role, taking on quite a significant and substantial responsibility. So that's number one. I've learned so much just by working with him and watching him. so that in itself has been extremely enriching as an experience. Because Jan Dilleman, yes. Raal: This is Jan Dielerman, just making sure, yeah. Eman Abdalla: Yes. And I've always said by the way, it's interesting that as a woman, those that have opened doors for me, the three different most critical times in my career have all been men who've taken a chance. And have made a bet on me by taking me in. So, and that's why on International Women's Day or on Women's Day in Maritime, I always give credit to where credit is due. Yes, it's to the women, but it's to the men that allow us to come into different industries and integrate us and take a chance on us. So that's from from a leadership and from a from an executive management on how Cargill. was within my career as a team. what you build first and foremost is trust and and you enable your team and you allow them the breadth and the width to be able to express themselves and you challenge them and you hold them yes to very high standards while keeping A fundamental layer of empathy to be human in the end. So you know how it is, right? I was I was heading operations, and in any company, not only Cargill in any company, operations is the one department that gets blamed for anything and everything. Blame it on ops, right? And I'm extremely proud to say that after five years, we had worked on. the strategy, we have implemented the strategy, we've integrated everything that we said that we wanted to integrate. And in the end, operations was a department that was respected, that created actually value, and was considered by all of the other departments, especially by trading, as a partner and not just but as a cost center. Changed ops Image completely from a cost center to a PL enabler. Because that's what I told my team. I said the trading team, they go out and they fight within the market to execute a trade. But who preserves that PL? Who enables the delivery of the PL? It's the operator, it's the operations team, it's the claims team, it's the LATime team, it's all of those different areas of execution. come together, they are the ones that actually deliver on the P<unk>L. Because guess what? I can make any voyage calculation look as good as you want it to look, right? But in the end, it's all about the execution. Am I gonna be able to deliver on the 100K profit on the voyage or not? Nick Chubb: I imagine when you set about a transformation like that, 50 % of it is working out. what you're going to do to become a profit enabler. And then the other 50 % actually relies on how you communicate that to the rest of the organization and possibly change the organization's perception of the operations team. Because there's a big difference between being seen as a cost center and seen as a profit enabler. How did you go about that change, of bringing the whole organization with you, I guess? Eman Abdalla: I think first and foremost is for the organization to realize that we are actually listening to them. We are listening and taking their concerns, let's say, on board wholeheartedly, and that we are demonstrating that we are making concrete changes. We're not, it's not just listening with deaf ears. No, we're listening. We're changing, we're making the right changes. And these changes are making a tangible difference. And it's also there were there were changes at at one point within because I think by the time I left, almost two-thirds of the whole organization was reporting into me one directly or indirectly. So that's quite a big responsibility of ocean transportation. So that's quite a big responsibility. And fundamentally, it's it's how do you identify talent? How do you retain talent? How do you attract talent? That's also because Cargill is the best academy for the rest of the world to poach from. That was the truth. Right? Raal: Yeah. Yeah. Eman Abdalla: So how can I, while remain competitive? Right. Because again, if you are such a big well-oiled machine, cost is also extremely important. So if a startup, you know, and you had operators opening up shops right, left and center, especially in in Bulgaria, right? Starting off with, I don't know, three to five employees, of course they can afford to double their salaries. But Cargill, of course I can't. Because I had more than 100 employees sitting in Varna. So we had to be cost conscious, yet at the same time, we had to make sure that we can attract the right talent and retain that talent. And I think the next generation, you know, you young people, they want to know from the get-go what an organization stands for, what impact they can have, and whether the stated values Actually appear in everyday decision making. So while a lot of people say that, you know, that the next generation actually they're not loyal and they change jobs very quickly, I s I have a bit of a different perspection. And I say they don't lack loyalty. They're just simply less willing to give that loyalty blindly. And in today's environment, it's a lot more challenging to attract and retain young talent. Than it was before. We were the generation that we were very happy to stay with the same employer, you know, getting small promotions, but stay within in the same role possibly, or at least in the same organization for the whole career. Today, no. If you're not keeping them motivated and showing them that you are actually breathing in and working towards that purpose, they don't stay. and I think that is also something else that we were extremely good at. Raal: Yeah, I think that was actually one of the themes that you talked about on stage when I saw you up in Edinburgh it was. yeah, Eman Abdalla: Yes. Raal: yeah, it's a big area of mine. really echo everything you're saying there, particularly around that loyalty thing and around people needing to believe and have purpose in what you're doing. And it speaks to that point around transformation as well, right? Part of that transformation is making people understand. why you're doing this, why it matters to the organization and why it should matter to them. It's one of those very simple things that so many people overlook and then wonder why it didn't land. Eman Abdalla: Exactly, and it's interesting because you know, some the way they they lead is okay, you know, I'm an executive at one of the largest shipping Operators in the world, everybody comes to me, I don't go to anybody. But I took the complete opposite approach. You just said that you saw me in Edinburgh. Edinburgh, it was a conference for PI clubs and insurance companies, correct? Some Raal: Yeah. Yeah, Halle Neschenor. Eman Abdalla: and Helen Machinery, some would argue and say, you know, why are you going there? I was going there to bridge, to create and to build a bridge with that part of the industry. And then we went and joined IAPH, for example. Again, that's bridging, you know, creating a new bridge with that part of the industry. Why? Because I'm a believe believer in collaboration, that all of us have to rally around the same causes. And at that time, I was going around to introduce the idea of decarbonization and you know, and and and wind and and so forth, which was a completely new concept from an insurance perspective, from a ports perspective. and terminals perspective, there was a lot of you know, they were a bit hesitant whether they should accept or not, and reservations, and we wanted to bridge that gap. So I was like, Yes, I do represent Cargill, and that in itself has a lot of respect and weight, but that doesn't mean that, you know, I shouldn't be the ones approaching them and building those bridges. And it was extremely useful and very effective. Raal: I've got to say, because you've kind of led me nicely to something that I was thinking about, right? You had this very big role in a huge organization, Cargill. I always say charter is the top of the food chain. know, everyone's looking up to the charters. So it's a very good position for being able to kind of, you know, like you said, get the attention of the people you need for this kind of collaboration thing. But at that point, you decided, well, actually, I'm going to leave all that behind and I'm going to go to a startup. So, I mean, we love startups on the show. We talk about startups a lot, but it's very rare that we get someone who's gone out of that big kind of corporate world where you get nice flights and you're well looked after and driven everywhere. Lots of people being nice to you to being sort of in the, in the cold face there. So could you talk to us about that transition? What was that? First of all, like what made you finally do that jump? and and B what was it like when you when you hit the water as it were? Eman Abdalla: Yeah, so it was either now or never. know, at this point in my career, my family, my age also, I felt that if I don't take this step and I don't do this now, I'm never gonna do it. And as I said in the beginning, everybody that knows me well knew that this has been growing for quite a while. So this is this is why now. and and the and the impact and how it felt. I don't know what to say. I don't I don't know even how to put it in words. I'll try. I mean, it was obviously I felt it takes a while. It it takes definitely a while. to reinvent and to recreate my identity that is detached from the big corporate logo. And it was the first conference that I went to and and I spoke at that it was I had to dig very, very deep to find my own voice and to be comfortable in my own skin. Without that big label. Yet at the same time, what I can tell you is that all the seeds that you plant throughout your career, and if you're a big believer in human connection and you planted the right seeds, and those seeds were authentic and genuine, they will come back to you ten times. And that's what I found. And I felt I feel extremely humbled. by by the support that I got as Eman without the big corporate label. Raal: Yeah, there's always that feeling. I had that myself when I left my last position that yeah, that is the business card that people liked and wanted to talk to. Eman Abdalla: Yeah. Raal: Will anyone ever ring me anymore or ask me anything? It is weird. It is weird. Eman Abdalla: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the other thing also that the reason why I felt that this is definitely the right time is you know, I'm I'm a person who likes a lot of diversity and being asked to sit on different boards solving different problems, that that gives me a huge sense of fulfillment. And it's it's you're not necessarily able to do that when you know when you have a corporate role, not with the same level of freedom, let's put it that way. So that's also very important. I feel that can I have a positive impact you know, with Panama Canal, for example, can I have a positive impact today with Ascon, you know, and develop the middle corridor or Th these are you know, these are big challenges, but they're extremely rewarding. Nick Chubb: You described, Eman, at the beginning, a show, the choice to start See Through, I think it was a decision by design. And I think it's very, very easy for one's career to end up. happening through purely through kind of evolution and very little kind of thought going into how you might design your career out. I know a lot of people listening will be aspiring to go into leadership type roles and I was wondering if you had any advice for people who are either finding themselves at a career junction and trying to make a more intentional decision. or possibly finding themselves a long, long way from a career junction and feeling like their career has drifted not by design. You know, kind how to go about taking a slightly more proactive approach to sort of really thinking about, you know, how you want to be spending your career. Eman Abdalla: Yeah, so a good friend of mine once told me that a job is a two-sided coin. the minute you feel that you are giving, but you're not necessarily getting in return. the same extent of what you are putting in this is the time when when you need to start asking yourself am i in the right role am i doing you know what i'm passionate about but really life is way way too short to to spend it doing something that you are not enjoying and i tell this to my kids all the time i am extremely extremely fortunate to find my passion by coincidence and and to make a living out of my passion. And that's why working for me doesn't even feel like working. But if you're struggling to wake up and you're going, and this was also one of the main reasons why I left Emirates Global Aluminium also, because I felt okay, I've done everything that I wanted to do. And after about seven and a half years, it was time to to embrace and take on a new challenge. so it's it's that difficult conversation. But mind you, I have to tell you, every time I made the decision to move, you know, I I, you know, I hit myself and I was like, what have I done? Why have I done that? You know, I was Raal: Thank Eman Abdalla: I was super comfortable. I was, you know, on on top of the world. Why, you know, and all of a sudden, especially that a lot of my moves came with an uprooting of the family and moving from one country to the other as well. Which adds layers and layers of challenges and complexity. but after a while, is it rewarding and and is it extremely worth it? Absolutely. And I would not change it for the world. All the decisions that I have made and all the changes that I have made, as hard as they were, this is that what made me who I am today. Absolutely. Nick Chubb: I think that's, yeah, it's nice advice to hear, I think, because I think often it's very, very easy to get trapped doing something that you just really don't love or doesn't make you happy. And I think you're right, life is very, very short. But it does require an element of sort of getting over the grief of losing an existing identity to get a new one. Eman Abdalla: And and it's gonna come with a lot of highs and lows and and and painful moments and and awkwardness and and feeling extremely vulnerable and extremely uncomfortable, also. So you know you have to put in the effort and and and you have to lift the weight and it's like going to the gym, you know. I don't know a lot of people that enjoy it, but you ha you have to go through the struggle, you know, if you want to be healthy and fit, I guess. Nick Chubb: all of those questions around identity and shedding an identity to sort of create a new one, I think is a... both fascinating but also it's more challenging than I think people give it credit for. And I think there's also an element of doing that with an organization as well, because, know, taking not just you as an individual, but taking an entire organization through a transition, I think is even bigger. And the big one that springs to mind when I think of Cargill these days is actually decarbonization. You talked about charter party lengths right at the beginning and then said that's Eman Abdalla: No, I said that. Yes. Nick Chubb: another discussion. My view of Cargill is that there has been a lot of work done on how the charter parties are constructed to enable decarbonisation technologies. And I feel like a lot of the innovation actually sits around the kind of legal and chartering aspects as well as around the technology. But I'd love to hear your kind of version of that story and what Cargill did over the time you were there. Eman Abdalla: Yeah, I could take it for the panel tonight. That was me. I'm not going to make it. Yeah, so let me perhaps just start first by giving you, you know, what I think where we are as an industry first, before I get into the nitty-gritty details. I think as an industry we are moving, but definitely not with enough consistency or alignment. we always have a tendency to frame decarb as a future fuel question. And who has the crystal ball, you know, and is it gonna be ammonia or methanol or nuclear or whatever? While, you know, or a combination and and how much of it will be dependent on wind technology. But we always have a tendency to overlook what can be done today through efficiency, planning, and collaboration. So if there is one thing that you know, I will continue to say is that we cannot allow uncertainty about tomorrow's fuel or regulation for that matter to become an excuse for not doing what we could do today and continue over consuming and over polluting. So that's I think that's one of the important things that I just want to mention because we need to be able to cut avoidable emissions today, while at the same time we continue to invest responsibly in tomorrow's fuels and tomorrow's technologies. Cost and responsibility also, they must be shared across the value chain. It's not owner versus charter. It's not charter versus end user instead. You know, it it needs to be shared. and obviously, and hopefully, I'm not gonna, I was gonna say unfortunately, but I'm gonna say hopefully, this will be supported by clear regulation and and incentives in the near future. So You know, just to give an example, the green premium can translate to only about you know, and I say this and I say this a lot, it's 60 cents, 46 cents, sorry, for a pair of shoes. That's the green premium. Can we afford that as as a society? Yes, we can. So then why aren't we pursuing this further? You know what I mean. And I think this is the question that that we all collectively have a responsibility to try to answer by collaborating. Nick Chubb: feel like that comes back to that point I made about shared helplessness, and that actually getting the mechanics in place to enable that extra 46 cents to go onto a pair of shoes feels like such a massive challenge across the supply chain. Eman Abdalla: I have no touch and box. Nick Chubb: no one is quite able to fully take responsibility for it and therefore we just say, we'll let the IMO deal with it or not as the case may be. So what would you say to leaders across the industry around how we should get our act together? Eman Abdalla: Yeah, so I think so you you asked me in the beginning about you know how was it, you know, when I was with Cargill. And I think Cargill, to be honest, as an organization have definitely done their part by investing and testing and trialing a variety, a wide variety of different technologies. and that's something that, you know, that's something that That they should be commended for. But at the same time, like any other company, they have a business to run. And that business has to remain a commercially viable business. Nobody is gonna benefit from one company trying to do more than the rest, but not getting perhaps compensated for it, or ending up with assets. That are not going to be able to get a premium for the investment that they've made. Nobody's going to benefit from that because it's going to be extremely short-lived as a cycle. So instead, focus has to be on: okay, number one, let's agree that with operational efficiencies, we can easily cut another 30 to 40 percent of existing emissions with the existing fleet. Right. That that's today. That's within our control. Again, something that I yes, Rail, go ahead. Raal: No, I was just going to say a part of my frustration often with this is a little bit like I was saying, you get punished for doing, for innovating within the structure and doing nothing, cost nothing. There's this perception in some arguments I get with ship owners when they're thinking about or talking about the costs that they have to bear with this. Like there's the cost of going green and then there's nothing else on the other side. But if we continue as we are, the costs will come. Eman Abdalla: Some decks in the game, but something they're doing, but it's not what's that more than some. Raal: You mentioned you're on the board of Panama Canal. Nick and I covered it the other week on what potential drought does to the Panama Canal and ships ability to pass through it. These environmental extreme weather events are all going to come on the door of ship owners if we don't do something to try and control the environment. Eman Abdalla: So the not to say Absolutely. And that's why we need to focus collectively our efforts on making sure that we have common incentives. Incentives to not, you know, sail fast and wait at different ports. How can we move from an industry that relies heavily on being a black box to an industry that openly shares data? And information for to reduce emissions and to reduce waiting time. Why aren't ports and terminals linked in one way or the other? I always use aviation as a benchmark. an airplane does not take off from one airport unless she is expected at her destination airport, and there is a slot waiting for that plane. Using AI and using technology, shouldn't that be our ultimate goal today? So that we have that platform, we have that transparency, we have that standardization, we have that quality of data that we can make the right decisions. Another, you know, there's a lot of amazing softwares out there for voyage optimization. Zero North is one of them. I said, Great, you're optimizing the voyage from point A to point B. What about the most important part of the voyage, which is at port? Which was I was, you know, while I was still there, I was hoping to connect any voyage optimization software out there with berthing prospects, for example, so that, you know, if you can afford to sail at that minimum speed so that you reduce your waiting time, that this is the right thing to do. But not be competing with other ships, for example. And then go to stand in line so that you can get paid for that time waiting in line. So these are the fundamentals behind how we trade ships and how we fix ships that require courage to be challenged and to get changed. And so they require ch courage to challenge them, and they require collaboration between everyone within one supply chain or value chain. To come together and say, no, let's work on common incentives so that we reduce emissions and improve efficiencies. And then talk to me about what's the future fuel and dual fuel engines and investments to be made. Because in the end, we're gonna all be competing for that hydrogen molecule. We're gonna be competing amongst other industries for that green hydrogen molecule. If it's gonna be too expensive for our industry because these, you know, they're they're they're they're they're gonna be scarce, so be it. But at least I wanna make sure that we are doing our part. Nick Chubb: on that point on collaboration. I totally buy into what you're saying, but I also see so many people talk about collaboration on conference stages and panel discussions. And then we all go back to our day jobs and it just doesn't quite work. And I know from the time... Eman Abdalla: So I dropped it flipped again. So we'll stream out the position of my system. Raal: seaward. Nick Chubb: that you've had at Cargill and I can tell from how passionate you're talking about this that it really does mean something to you and perhaps a way it doesn't mean something to other stakeholders across the industry. from the experience you've had, what makes for really effective collaboration and what causes collaboration to fail? Eman Abdalla: I think the starting point is is is going back to the drawing board, right? And the drawing board for me starts with a load port, a discharge port, load terms, discharge terms, which become a part of a commodity contract. which then translate into a charter party, which then translates into laytime, which then imposes certain actions and behaviors of the operator and the owner and the charter. Right. So how do we bring about change is by going back to the drawing board and having transparent, open, impactful discussions, which by the way, IAPH are actually doing a lot of. And the Port of Rotterdam, for example, is definitely an excellent example of that, is sharing their knowledge and spreading about awareness and leading by example. and trying to change the start start from the from the from the starting point. What is the beginning of the thread? The beginning of the thread, as I said, loading terms, discharge terms, change those first. Make sure that you incentivize ships that are that are coming at the right allocated slot, for example, or or use another way and incentivize ships that are consuming less fuel on a per voyage basis. Charters. Incentivize operators that are willing to sign freight contracts showing you how much carbon they emit on a per voyage basis and make that part of your evaluation criteria. At Emirates Global Aluminium, for example, we had commercial evaluation and technical evaluation. Why not make sure that part of the technical evaluation is how much carbon is being emitted per voyage based on the vessel? Age and size and engine type and so forth. That's a huge differentiator. And another thing which is quite unfortunate is all of the geopolitical this geopolitical scene today and and how you know certain segments are happy that they're taking longer routes. Without taking you know, because obviously this is this is better for them in terms of PL, in terms of cost per ton, but for the industry. for the environment, it's definitely not the right thing to do. Are we doing enough to lobby against that also? Or is that completely under the radar? From where I'm sitting at least, I have felt that this was this so far it was completely under the radar. It wasn't taking the right level of attention and it wasn't being put under the spotlight that, you know, can can you please go back to your original route? Has the threat actually subsided? Or it hasn't, is this something that's being qualified on a regular basis and quantified? So yeah. Nick Chubb: I think it's really interesting that your first response to that, which is very refreshing, was a very simple review that actually wherever you are in the shipping value chain, you exist within a system. Eman Abdalla: maybe a funny button to say this is what you want it was. Nick Chubb: that it's not purely about sort of maximizing your own profit. It's about making sure that the system functions well for everyone. I think it's very, very easy to lose sight of that when you're kind of stuck in the day-to-day of actually kind of operating. Yeah. Eman Abdalla: And and reward that as well. So say, okay, this voyage, you know, we're estimating that we're gonna consume this much fuel and we're gonna emit this much emissions. If if there is a reduction in the whole voyage. And everybody's contributing to contributing to this qualitative change, you know, whatever we save gets split across everyone within that voyage or within that value chain equally, for example. So that could be a way around it. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: think we could probably talk for another couple of hours, we've Eman Abdalla: Yeah. Raal: coming to the end of the slot. So mean, I'm keen to understand with all this ambition, what's next for you and for see-through. Eman Abdalla: what's next? I mean, I think you'll you'll notice obviously that that I've taken a bit of a back step in in you know in participating in conferences and and appearing a lot and so forth. And that's because I'm just, you know, between between building see-through and not building see-through for today or for tomorrow. But hopefully building a platform that would last well, well beyond my time, as well as, you know, my board positions. And first and foremost, being a mother, I already have my hands full. And the one thing that I can tell you about being an entrepreneur is, you know, in corporate worlds, I felt that I was a queen. You know, I walked into the office and, you know, you have resources right, left and center to do everything that I wanted to get done within the corporation. Whereas obviously today the team is much smaller. and you know, and it's like having a new baby, right? That needs your attention 247. So I'm taking, you know, I wouldn't say baby steps because I actually think that we've achieved quite a lot in the past year or so. It hasn't even been a year yet. I think we've achieved definitely quite a lot. I'm very, very proud of what we achieved so far. But being an entrepreneur means that you know, I have to just continue building at the right pace, making sure that I fortify the foundation as much as I can. As I said, to build something that will last well beyond my time. So so yeah, that's it. Nick Chubb: appreciate you taking the time to talk to us about it because it's been an absolutely fascinating conversation. So thank you. Eman Abdalla: Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Raal: there will be people listening who may be interested to find out more about you or get in touch with you. Where can they find out more? Eman Abdalla: Sure. we there's our website obviously seethrumarine.com. they can send us an email. there's operation at Sea Through Marine or commercial at Sea Through Marine. So yeah, they can just go on the website and they'll definitely know where to find us. Raal: Brilliant. Well, we wish you Nick Chubb: awesome. Raal: the very best of luck with everything. Really, really Eman Abdalla: Thank you, thank you. Raal: excited to see how it all takes shape and it will be great for everyone to see you back on the circuit now. Now you're ready to come back. Eman Abdalla: Yeah. Nick Chubb: You Eman Abdalla: Yes. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure, guys. Appreciate it. Raal: Thanks. Nick Chubb: Thanks, Eamonn.