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E343: New Zealand Skincare Panel Discussion · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
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• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to Super Anarchy.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is a wonderful and very, very special episode.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I am so thrilled and so honored to have had this opportunity and privilege.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I can't wait to just dive in.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: But before I do, I want to give you a little preface.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is going to be a panel discussion and it's going to be revolving around the amazing, amazing brands that we see coming out of New Zealand year after year.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think New Zealand is known for just how rich of an environment it is geographically.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, there's so many natural reserves, um being near the water, the, you know, even the thermal waters and the sea, there's just so much, you know, potential there in terms of scientific discovery, um, in terms of healing.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I can't wait to dive in.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, I want to begin by introducing you guys to the brands that are being represented here today and um the founders.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll begin with uh Anihana, which uh we have Sophie Cooper here from Anihana.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um we have Brianne West of Athek, um, Dion Nash of Triumph and Disaster, Anthony Gadston of Asano.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm I'm very excited, guys.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so honored to be hosting all of you.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks for having us.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_05: Great to be here.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm I'm actually starting.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, anyone can get started.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps, you know, we can go down the line as I introduced everyone.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sophie, I'd love for you to start us off, you know, and just tell us.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I really want um to get like that little bit of information about each brand and what you guys are really, you know, um, you know, aiming to fill, like the gaps you're aiming to fill with your uh wonderful visions.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So if Sophie, maybe you could start us off with Anihana and where you began your journey and what you were hoping to accomplish with your vision and you know all the good stuff.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sure.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm a bit of a podcast newbie, so I'm a bit nervous, but thanks for having me.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um my my journey started about six years ago.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was a florist for 10 years and I so I've always loved creating beautiful things.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was working for a lady that owned a soap manufacturing business.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I used to sell the soaps and the bath bombs with the flowers.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, an opportunity arose.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I just happened to be eight months pregnant at the time to buy this manufacturing business.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I jokingly said to my husband one night, shall we buy it?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: And um, yeah, a couple of months later we had a new business and a new baby.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a very, very full-on busy time for us.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so we carried on contract manufacturing, soaps and bath bonds for other customers.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then about a year and a half into that, we created our own brand.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: We were originally called R, so AAA H.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's it's kind of came from the the sound you make when you jump in the bath at the end of the day.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, being a busy mom and uh and a new business owner was quite stressful, so it was kind of my go-to, relaxing thing at the time.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then a year ago, my my husband joined the business full time.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we decided to do a full rebrand, so a new name.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so now we're called Annie Hannah, which is also our daughter's middle name.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it was it's really it's got a really um strong connection to our family values.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it represents, you know, when when my husband joined the business, and also I was pregnant with my daughter at the time when I started it.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's also Aiden, my husband's late mother's maiden name.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then yeah, as as as the the business grew and my kids, I guess I really started thinking more sustainably.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: I I realized that I grew up using soap bars, so did my parents and my grandparents.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I really wanted to, you know, carry on that tradition and teach my kids that they can, you know, make better choices.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then we developed the the solid hair care range and the solid moisturizers, so um trying to reduce um you know packaging by putting it in compostable packaging.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um and really my vision is just it's really around self-care and taking that time for you.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, one of our most popular products is the shower steamers, and it's just that kind of in-spa-like experience.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um just to relax and yeah.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: As far as I know, I mean, I feel free for anyone to comment.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: New Zealand is known for some of the best spas in the world, right?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like that's amazing that you're kind of giving us a piece of that, you know, at home.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: Especially in the last few years, I think people have been um forced to be at home.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: So it's kind of just taking that spa experience and and treating yourself to a few a five, 10 minute break.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, absolutely.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Sophie.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I um I want to want to think uh uh Brienne.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Brianne, if you could uh introduce us to your brand and just uh kind of walk us through what inspired you and what led to the creation.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I had uh it was just fairly new at university, um and I had just started and sold a couple of businesses that were um uh basically uh the only point to those businesses was uh money making.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: And uh well I was I was studying biology and chemistry at university, so I had some some interesting skills and I I really wanted to combine a couple of passions.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: One which was business, uh the other which was uh my passion for the environment, and I've always had this belief that business is the way to solve so many of our social and environmental problems uh if we do business fairly and equitably, right?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted uh to do something a little bit different to the previous two companies and create a product that not only reduced and removed a lot of the consumer waste, so uh we produce bars of pretty much everything in your bathroom and to a degree your kitchen, like shampoo, and bars like Sophie and Anihana, but also um a few other bits and pieces like concentrates.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And um but I wanted to operate that business as ethically as possible as well.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: So um everything from being palm oil-free to uh using direct and fear traded ingredients and just see how far I sort of could push this ethical model, ensuring that the business was still financially sustainable.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Started in my kitchen, had absolutely no idea what I was doing, um, made probably more mistakes than good decisions, but um luckily I met some incredibly clever people along the way, and and throughout the teak has just grown and um become a bit of a um a much bigger organization than I probably ever imagined.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we're now available in 22 different countries around the world.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I just had this vision, you know, in the kitchen I wanted to rid the world of a million plastic bottles by 2020.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we hit 10 million by 2020, so it grew a little bit faster than we imagined.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um now the goal is to save half a billion plastic bottles but by 2030.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: But what I I guess the bigger thing for a TIK is beyond making, you know, beautiful hair and skincare products, is really encouraging consumers to demand more of their brands and inspiring and showing other businesses that it's totally possible to operate in this way that considers all stakeholders, including the environment, but is still a business that grows fast and is financially sustainable and profitable.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so that's that's sort of our mission and vision and where it all started.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the sustainability component.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was actually reading about how New Zealand is kind of um, you know, really a front runner when it comes to you know just educating people on the sustainability aspect.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that that's tied into your brand.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think now more than ever, there's definitely a page from that book that we could all, you know, really take and learn from.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: So um really, you know, hats off to you for creating that.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh that's marvelous.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think New Zealand is um is a front run of the environmental movement just because of what we're surrounded by in terms of you know natural beauty, it really doesn't get much better than this.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Deanna, I I would like to um ask you to do the same about triumph and disaster and tell us all about how that became.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: I I believe you are a professional cricketer, yes.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to also hear about that.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I was.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_05: I'm not anymore.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_05: That's uh seems like another lifetime ago, but that's um yeah, in the the back in the the dirty old 90s, that's out.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm showing my age, but um uh it's um it's definitely a relevant part of I guess my the brand story.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_05: So Triumph and Disasters, um, you know, it's a masculine skincare brand.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and we started what 2011, 2011.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_05: So um, and uh for me or my introduction to business was quite late.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_05: I I retired from sport when I was 30, uh, and then I I ended up working for a New Zealand vodka brand called 42 Below, which um was my sort of business 101, if you like.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and that was a exciting time in New Zealand business.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_05: They were sort of a young, adventurous company sort of trying to take on the world in vodka.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_05: So um, you know, pedaling booze was uh my my uh it's a long way from skincare, but it was a really great um introduction to sales and branding and and sort of learning about business for me.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um and I guess the the evolution from there was for me to try and do my own thing and take those learnings and apply them to my own business.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_05: So um that I resigned from that role at 42 Below, which was I was marketing director there um after seven years of that.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_05: And then um I was sitting in a and decided I want to do my own business, and I was sitting in a uh my last meeting in a an agency in New York, and the young, the sort of cool hip young guy with a with a vest on and a sleeve arm sleeve tattoo um pulled out a moisturizer during the meeting.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember thinking it was a woman's moisturizer, and I remember thinking um, oh, I've that that I can do better than that.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_05: That's um I because I and I I felt with cricket we because it's played outdoors during the day.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_05: Um in the 90s, I had used you know women's moisturizers myself because there were no men's ones, um, and I had to hide them in the bottom of my cricket bag for fear of getting um exposed as a uh uh moisturiser user by my teammates.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_05: So I thought, well, um, and I sort of ruminated on this on the plane on the way home from from New York, um, and I thought, you know, something strange has happened, you know.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_05: My grandfather had all these pots and lotions um that he would use, but my father had a literally a spray can of shape cream.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_05: That was the extent of his uh bathroom um grooming routine.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_05: And I thought, what's happened over the years?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_05: Why have we lost this as men?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um and so that was sort of genesis of the idea.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and then I I started to think about what what it meant to be from New Zealand.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_05: And um, so initially my I just thought, what if I can re replicate my own morning routine um of how I use you know this the woman's skincare I was using at the time, and I thought, well, there's a reason I like that moisturizer, it's fast to apply, it's quickly hydrates and it's on and gone.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_05: And so therefore, you know, men don't want this tactile, sort of heavy moisturizers that maybe are good for foundations to go over or whatever.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so I thought, well, I there's some Intel or knowledge there that I can apply and give it myself a competitive advantage in the in the space.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_05: So that was the sort of original idea.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_05: The name itself um came from um a triumph and disaster comes from a Rudyard Kipling poem called If, um, which is advice about how to be uh from Rudyard Kipling to his son, um about how to be how to live a good life of humility and and honor and and sort of how to be a man.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_05: And um one of the lines is if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_05: And the last line is you'll be a man, my son.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_05: And I think um what I was trying to do, I I sort of was trying to articulate in my own way to New Zealand men in particular, you know, how to um lower the barrier to entry, you know, like there was this, I guess at the time when I when I was developing the brand, uh, you were called a metrosexual was the term that you are referred to as a male if you use skincare, which was sort of a sticky sort of term, which didn't really mean anything, but definitely didn't have a positive connotation.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and so I thought, um, you know, how do I you know destabilize that idea?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_05: And um I thought, well, the one thing we do is we all shave, so if I can make it rational for guys to use it to extend the shaving into protection and cleaning um your face and protecting your face, then you know that might be the core of a routine.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_05: Um and I thought, well, that comes from handed down advice, which um you know was that my father gave me the poem, but the idea of how to build a routine is handed down advice.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_05: You might watch your dad or your uncle or your brother or your granddad shave, and you know, that's how you learn.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_05: So it all seemed to fit together.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_05: And of course, the name felt sort of um uh resonated even if you didn't know the backstory.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: I love that, by the way.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Dion, this the truly hats off to you for that.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, I to this day, after all the brands I've interviewed, I kid you not, it is so difficult to make men understand that you're going to lose your sense of what you consider to be manhood, or I don't know what the right word is, if you use products that are for care, you know, for care of the largest organ of your body.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, what you've said here and articulated so wonderfully is exactly the message that I wish, you know, every young man, every, you know, grown man, anyone could really hear.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, the skin is an organ, you know, and we have to take care of it.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And for you to really kind of go on this journey and and do it, especially as you know, uh a professional athlete, your background, you know, that's that's a huge statement.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I really commend you for that.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need a lot more of that, honestly, in this industry.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, thank you.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean, it's been a long journey and it's there's a lot lots to it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_05: But um, you know, we I think there's a really healthy message there about masculinity, not just for men, actually, just masculinity as a a concept.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_05: And and I think that there's you know, trying to give that some really positive attributes is is important for it for all of us going forward.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now, um, Anthony, I would love for you to tell us about Asano um and what kind of you know sparked the vision and what led to the brand.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: Great, thanks.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: Well, great to be here today.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, three of my favorite brands, so good to see you guys.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so we started um we started the business actually 22 years ago, um, showing my age.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and literally with uh we started with men's hairstyling products.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, one product we started making it in the back of a barber shop um um at nighttime um and had friends around for beer and pizzas to um to pack the products.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_04: So our sort of our skincare journey really started in an unusual way.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um we built up this business, some couple of great brands in the men's um skincare and hair care space, but really uh the sort of step change for us in the business.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, about nine years ago, our our wonderful wives were looking for um um great natural products, they were getting much more aware about this that the problems having with synthetic products um in your skincare.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and they couldn't find anything that was sort of accessible and affordable.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_04: And so we had set up this great factory, we had cosmetic chemists, um, and they really encouraged us and pushed us along um to look at this in the category.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um so we launched the Sano brand yeah nine years ago with six products.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um we're now you know about 12,000 stores worldwide, um about 200 products within the range across multiple categories.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um and it's been a it's been a pretty exciting journey.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um we've been, you know, most of our sales are in Australia at the moment.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: We've been launching into the US over the last couple of years.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um and you know, for us, we're just passionate about um you know offering a natural alternative to some of these synthetic products that are out there, some of the multinationals who have been very slow to to offer uh good formulations at affordable prices.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um and uh and sustainability has been a really key focus for us over the last couple of years as well.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: And in everything we do, we try and do it more sustainably.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, I and that's uh see, that's the thing is like I really, really value that about um just New Zealand in general.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think there's a lot of um awareness, a lot of conscientious, you know, buying, like the consumers are more conscious of this idea of you know, we need to be uh be kind to our environment, you know.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I say that that's because the land is beautiful.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've been to New Zealand, I absolutely love it, it's absolutely gorgeous.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I can imagine if you live there, you don't want to ruin, you know, what's so perfect, um, which is nature.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I also I wanted to ask you actually, Anthony, because I know that you guys are um very independent in the sense that you have an in- you have in-house chemists, um, you know, you have a lab on site.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that to be extremely, extremely interesting because the more and more I dive into skincare brands, I realize that you know, a lot of it is outsourcing or a lot of it is kind of this like cookie cutter model that many brands adopt, right?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's um for me, I feel like that that's counterintuitive to uh true innovation.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love for you to speak on that experience a little bit, if you could, um, about having some assets.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_04: I think um uh you know one of our competitive advantages has been our speed to market and our innovation.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_04: We've got an amazing group of cosmetic chemists with international experience.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, we've got great sales and marketing people that can see trends coming.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_04: As we all know, you know, natural skincare, um, that you know, it's evolving so quickly, you know, that it's accelerating even the last couple of years.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: There's so many new brands coming to market, um, a lot of D2C, uh, a lot of trial is um what it what's what's difficult at times is trying to determine what's actually a fad and what's a trend.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_04: And and and the important thing is not to chase all the fads because they tend to come and go very quickly.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but for us, you know, it has been a real advantage having our own our own factory um based in Auckland.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it means we can identify trends, we can get products to market within six to nine months, which is pretty quick these days, um, compared to multinationals, where they can be researching for you know two, three years at least before they get something to market.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: So that certainly has been an advantage.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: And because we don't contract manufacture for anyone else, it means we can just focus solely on on the brand and the consumer.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: Everything we do is really focused on on how do we service the consumer better, how do we um develop products that are going to really resonate with them.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: And so a lot of research goes into that.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: But um, yeah, certainly having having our own factory is a is a huge advantage.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can imagine.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's truly the you know, it's the way to go.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I really believe that.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: I in terms of like the future of skincare and the future of beauty products, I think there need to be more options available to amazing entrepreneurs that allow them the creativity, the creativity and the creative freedom to um, you know, customize more, you know, according to their vision rather than the vision of a manufacturer.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm very passionate about that topic because I think a lot of brands fall into that hole of, you know, well, I have to do what the manufacturer is telling me.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, that's defeating the point, you know, of you having a vision.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: So um yeah.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, it is, but it is uh it has been a 22-year journey to sort of get there.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's um it's um having your own factories, you know, creates a whole, you know, whole nother set of things to worry about.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_04: But um, but yeah, it certainly is an advantage.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I want to actually, you know, take this to a more like overall panel discussion where I'd love to hear everyone's um viewpoint on this uh idea of what is natural, you know, what is natural um, I guess, sourcing and using natural ingredients.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Sophie, I would love for you to get us started, you know, in your own um mindset, like what do you consider when you think of that word and when you think of it, especially as an entrepreneur?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I know that you mentioned your mother, and I I am you know very curious because these days I notice that a lot of children's uh products, whether they're bath products or whatever, they're also leaning towards this idea of natural ingredients.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I would love to get your take on that.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if you could get us started with this uh this discussion.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sure.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's a good question, and and my opinion on it has definitely changed over the six years since I've been making um products.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think um natural was certainly very like kind of like a buzzword a few years ago, and people were looking for natural products.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: But the more kind of learning I've done, um you know, I'm not a chemist at all, and I've tried I've formulated products myself, then it was a lot of trouble and error, and I've looked at ingredients and I've made a lot of mistakes, and I've kind of looked at whether it's an Natural or not, and I've kind of come to the realization that just because it's natural doesn't mean it's good.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, for example, you know, um a mica that we you can use to colour cosmetics and and um products, it's it there's a lot of um children mining for them in countries that you you know, and it's not ethical, so it's more around I would personally be looking at the like if it's sourced ethically and whether you can actually get a lab-made synthetic version, um, which is just as good and maybe naturo identical, but there's no children harmed in the mining of it.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, definitely would be looking more around the sustainability and ethical sourcing, what on and I wouldn't make a decision on whether to use an ingredient whether it was just 100% natural, because you know, natural it doesn't necessarily mean good.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but then you know, it's it's just a lot of learning.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm still learning as I go, so I I might be wrong on some of those points, but that's just my my opinion at the moment.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think it makes a lot of sense, and I like that you tied in the word sustainability because I think the real question should have been worded differently from my end in terms of natural yet sustainable, you know.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, Brianne, I would love for you to add to this uh discussion about that because you know I know sustainability is at the core of your brand, and um, you know, what does that really mean in terms of ingredients and sourcing them to be as safe as possible and you know, all of those things that we want to know as consumers.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, Sophie's bang on.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Natural is a buzzword that is largely meaningless.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, natural does not mean safe.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, arsenic is naturally occurring, and you definitely don't want to rub that on your skin.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, natural as a as a descriptor is is not as helpful as consumers have been led to believe, and unfortunately, it is a word that has been greenwashed into meaninglessness.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a lot of ingredients are they may be if you source it naturally, again, as as Sophie has said, it's not actually the sustainable version at all.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of ingredients that people believe are natural are actually made in a lab to a uh to be nature identical.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's actually a really complicated question.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when I formulate products, uh, whether an ingredient is natural is irrelevant.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: What it needs to be is uh have no scientific evidence or even sort of hints or concerns that it has um any problems for human life, but also the environment and health in general.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's also got to be sustainably sourced and ideally as possible.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um so if it's something that's grown, so directly traded or or fairly traded.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's just that natural doesn't mean anything, and it's uh it's it's a it's a funny thing we've got really caught up on because as soon as you dig into it, you realize, oh no, that is actually not a helpful thing at all.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the the number one thing people want their skincare to be is effective, right?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: You're not buying something just very few people are going to buy something just because it's natural, they want it to work, and a lot of uh the more natural variants of ingredients, um for example, natural or retinol or bacutiol, I think that's how you say it.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've never said it out loud on a podcast before, so that will that will be horrendous.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um Bacuchiol is, you know, it's it's touted as natural retinol, but it's it's nowhere near as clinically effective.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it really depends what you want.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: I understand people's concerns that synthetics made in a lab sounds like it's chemicals, and that you we've a lot of consumers have been educated that that is really dangerous and harmful.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: But what you need to, of course, remember is that everything is chemicals, and it chemical is not good, bad, or otherwise.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: It just simply is.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, water is one of the greatest solvents on earth, uh, but it's really quite important for life.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a hard question to answer because it's a very complicated subject matter, and it uh it's a hot bum for a lot of people and a lot of brands.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to actually ask you also as a follow-up, you know, how does the vegan conversation come into all of this for you?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, creating a sustainable brand and then also having it be vegan, like how is that has that been difficult or has that just been in synchrone, you know, in synchrony with uh you faded out there for me at the end, so hopefully you didn't add anything on there.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: But um uh in terms of veganism, uh I don't see why you would need to add animal products into cosmetics personally.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it hasn't ever been anything that we've ever really thought otherwise around.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's just again, it just is.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's something I there's no need to use animal products in cosmetics for me, end of story.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's very easy to avoid, in my opinion, again, rightly or wrongfully.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Dion, I want to ask you um from a different angle actually about this, because this conversation I think has so many different layers, and I think it's important for us, especially the male consumers out there that are listening, um, to talk about this idea of sustainability and what that means for them and how high that ranks, you know, on their list of things they look for in products.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now, um, have you had any kind of you know data given, you know, feedback to you that uh tells you about the male consumers and what they're looking for in terms of sustainability or uh whether it's you know natural or or whatever the buzzwords are, you know, has anyone kind of commented on that from your consumer base?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_05: Uh yeah, it's definitely increasingly becoming um more important and the consumers are definitely becoming more aware across the board.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I mean, I've always taken the viewpoint though that I mean it's just the baseline, you know, to be clean, to make the cleanest products you can and the safest products you can is is sort of like uh, you know, the the baseline point.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I I always come back to what we're trying to do is make the best skincare we can, uh, that's better than all the other skincare.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_05: And and the but of course that has to be part of that equation has to be that it has to be good for the environment, good and sustainably sourced and and made and and have an ethical side to all of it.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_05: It's impact.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_05: But you know, we've always said right from day one, you know, 11 years ago, ashes to ashes.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_05: So everything we use, every product we make washes off once you jump in the shower.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_05: So it all ends up down the downstream.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_05: And so, you know, everything flows to the sea.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_05: I love those.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and you know, you walk down the streets and you see the drain pipes and it floats, everything flows to the sea.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_05: And it applies so perfectly to skincare and hair care products, um, and and anything really that you're putting on.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and so I think that that idea, if you know that everything is flowing downstream, that it just puts a uh an onus on you as a man as a brand and as a manufacturer to be making things that aren't toxic and aren't going to be creating you know impact downstream that that that's avoidable.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_05: So I think like that there's sort of just a baseline, and I think New Zealand brands generally, I I think um, you know, what Sophie and Brian have said, it is a really complex, the more you get into, you can get tongue-tied around natural and and the whole thing.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_05: But I think that probably the easiest way is to step step back from it and say, you know, what we're all trying to do.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_05: And I think what New Zealand brands generally are just really, really um upfront about is sort of traceability and and sort of an earnest sort of um transparency with which we're creating our brands.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_05: And we're trying to collectively as a country do the right thing because we are so aware of the impact.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and I think that you know that that's the message I would try to get out there is you know, there's always new technologies, there's always cleaner, safer uh evolutions of the ingredients you're using.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_05: And I think part of being a good uh business person or brand uh in this space is that you are constantly reviewing, evolving, and refining um and trying to be uh you know better both from a performance level, um, but also from uh you know your your footprint and and the impact you're having.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you brought up some really, really excellent points there, um, especially you know concerning New Zealand, because you know, it's it's always been my hypothesis that you know because, you know, for example, in the West, you know, America is so landlocked, right?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So many of our states are still landlocked, there's not a lot of water around us.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're always looking at, you know, kind of the same thing all the time, versus New Zealand, where the, you know, the geography is just so diverse and there's just so much to see and and really actually observe, you know, as a human being.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think the impact of um, you know, understanding what we're doing to the earth and what we're putting out there and what that leads to downstream is actually more so in the face of the consumers.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I wonder if that translates, you know, in terms of how uh people are manufacturing things here versus, you know, somewhere like New Zealand.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, a lot of times I think when you don't see it firsthand, it kind of escapes your memory and it escapes your, you know, your foresight.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I would love for you to actually anyone, um, anyone here to comment on that in terms of what the actual culture is like in New Zealand when it comes to just people being more aware and being more mindful.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I think we, I think we uh have have our own versions of greenwashing.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_05: I think we have challenges too of uh working with manufacturers who who maybe aren't as on board with with the direction and probably want to cut some corners.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_05: So I think you know the the the challenge for us is to live up to the reputation that maybe New Zealand has but needs to to to live up to a little bit more.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_05: So I think we you know we have our own set of challenges.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_05: We're certainly, I think, as consumers and and and brands very much um aware of it and want to live up to it, but there's a job to do here in terms of um making sure all of the um the vertical parts of that process from packaging and to manufacturing to you know even our distribution channels are are living up to it.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_05: And and the job's not done.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_05: I'm sure the other um everyone else on the call would agree, but um, you know, it it's definitely a collective effort needs to be required to to live up to it and and put it and hold ourselves up to that standard that we as a country we want to be held to.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, absolutely.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for for that.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I completely agree.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think everyone can really, you know, learn from that.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Anthony, I want to ask you, you're gonna get this, you're gonna get this angle from me because you do manufacture your own line and you know, you do have the lab.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I really want to get your um just perspective, you know, about the hurdles, the challenges, or even, you know, the triumphs, you know, about of really creating a line that is sustainable, that is ethically sourced, and all of these great words, you know, how has that been for you?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, being different, being kind of on your own, you know, and not having someone else that's doing the work for you, you know, what's that been like for you?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_04: So I think um, yeah, the conversation certainly has changed since we launched the brand.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's about, you know, safe for the environment, of course, but safe, safe for people to use.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think that's that's really important.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um the sustainability piece often gets confused with uh with safe and natural in terms of formulation.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it's it really comes down to effectiveness.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_04: I think, you know, um I think we certainly are ahead of the world um in in terms of formulations, in terms of expectations around sustainability.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, there's a lot of decisions we have to make.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um and uh you know, a lot of uh it often costs a lot more money to manufacture and to source you know, packaging and draws from around the world that are more sustainable.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, at the end of the day, we we as a team, as business owners and as a team want to be proud of what we do, um, and we want to, you know, we want to lead the charge in terms of the world around um ethically um formulating and sourcing.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um so yeah, I think yeah, it certainly does put a bit more onus on us um to do that work.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we're we're in our second year of an independent um sustainability audit, which we which we publish and um and it's available online for anyone that wants to read it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_04: And um we certainly we've made some massive strides in the last couple of years.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um there's still work to do, but I think being just open and transparent about that, um, you sort of know where you are and where you want to head.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's really, really important.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_04: We'd encourage any uh any other brand to do that.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: And we've got we get a lot of kudos of for doing that work um with the retailers we deal with around the world.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's that's lovely.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think that's you know, I think the work once you start it, I think it the impact it has is you know, you you if you live to see it, that's wonderful.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Many times, you know, many companies I've seen um even in the past, you know, the the good work that they begin, you know, it oftentimes lasts for many, many decades.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the the fact that you're taking lead on this is truly wonderful.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think, you know, for me, my my biggest question to all of you really is about, you know, what is the the ideal for the New Zealand consumer?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what do they want?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, as entrepreneurs, how has that been for you in terms of delivering, in terms of making sure that you know the customers are getting what they want?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what are things that they prioritize?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know we talked about sustainability, but what are some of the other things that are prioritized in New Zealand in terms of just everyday, you know, customers and consumers?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe uh Brienne, you can get us started with that.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Customers want a product that works, you know, and they want it to, uh, and this is true of all uh products rather than just skincare, but they want something that works, but also says a little bit about who they are, which is obviously why designer brands are um as popular as they are, because and why Apple is as popular as because it tells you it makes the person buying it feel like it's telling other people who they are.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's the whole point of branding, right?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um so first and foremost, they want a product that works, but they also want something that aligns with their values.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, sustainability is a huge deal for many, many people, Mateiro.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it is a it is a benefit, it is not the sole reason for purchasing, though, of course.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it is just an additive.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then there are the other things that people do look for, let's say, quote unquote, natural ingredients.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they do want something that's uh there is a lot of uh movement against plastic, for example.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, some of the uh options that are being used instead aren't necessarily the best.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's an interesting, another more complicated discussion, as most sustainability decisions are.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: But people want something that works that they can use without guilt because unfortunately a lot of the you know, the massive multinationals now um are putting all the guilt onto consumers for being sustainable.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, it's brands and businesses who need to take responsibility for producing sustainable, safe, healthy products.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the consumers' responsibility to feel guilty for creating these environmental crises.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, so it's it's really not hard.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: You just you do the beauty of being um uh TIC is is a fairly um D2C-led brand.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: We do have um, you know, lots of retailers around the world, but we are D2C first and foremost is our priority.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it does mean we've got that really close relationship with our customers.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, they'll constantly send in product requests and we understand what it is they want us to address with certain ingredients or or product formats or packaging types or what they do and don't like.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think that's a real benefit of a D2C model, or DC first model, I should say.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, at the end of the day, what customers want is not overly complicated, it's just New Zealand, uh New Zealanders in particular are uh super environmentally focused as a generalization, and they want brands that they can trust, you know.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: If a brand can engender trust and loyalty, you have fought and won a major battle.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a worldwide thing too, you know.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think everyone really wants that tried and true brand that they can stick to.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and this really actually leads me to my other question.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then this is for you, Sophie.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to know because I know you founded your brand in your kitchen in the sense of you know, you've really put it together and um it's it's really from the beginning to the end your vision.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering about the science, because for me as consumer, science is very important.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I really when I shop for brands, I look for is it scientifically um efficacious?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is it something that makes sense um physiologically, you know, or does it make sense for me to be using this?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: So what are those, um what has that meant for you as an entrepreneur, as a brand creator, um, in terms of making sure that what you've you've created and what you're putting out there um kind of is in support of that?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it doesn't have to be published papers or clinical trials.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: I just mean like in general, overall science.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly, that's a hard one for me because uh my my product testers are my my kids, my my staff, um my friends and family, and it it was a lot of trial and error.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it's something I'm learning about as as we go.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we were lucky when I bought the business, we inherited well, bought all these amazing formulations um so that all that work had been done before.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then it really was about, for example, with the the shampoo bars.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um it was really about looking at the ingredients and making sure that it aligns with our values.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: There was some ingredients there that I wasn't comfortable in using, so it was it was made it easier for me instead of starting from scratch um with a whole product, it was more about just change tweaking them a little bit to make them um one that they work well and the ingredients align to our values.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, for example, like um so it included sodium low sulfate as the this um detergent, and so we swap that for a milder alternative.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um but you know, as as we grow, it's definitely something I'm keeping in mind to get more support on, um, make sure that the products um have stability testing, which it's all we're all going through that process now, um, especially as we start to export as well to the US and Australia.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, it's a learning journey for me, for sure.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it makes sense.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I asked you wasn't, I'm sorry if I put you on the spot a little bit there.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't it wasn't for that, it really was because I I wanted to kind of hone in on the point of, you know, I think good science begins from just, you know, pride and true consumer experience.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, especially you had brought up the idea of shampoo bars, right?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I'm a huge fan of that um kind of product because for me, I I'll I'll be honest with you guys, you know, when I first started using certain shampoos, I was breaking out profusely, you know, it was like impacting my whole health, you know, my skin health, and then how I felt about myself.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized that, you know, just because a brand that is huge, you know, it's a mega brand, billions of dollars behind it, doesn't necessarily mean that they're doing something scientifically right.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because clearly my skin is showing that, you know what I mean?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So when I say like if it if it's scientifically backed or if it's scientifically viable, it's my my real question there is, you know, has there been a positive review and a positive reaction by the consumers?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because um, you know, now that we're approaching this field of dermatology more and more with skincare, people are getting more curious.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these kind of topics come up, you know, people ask about that.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is this going to make me break out?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is this shampoo gonna really work for me for my scalp health?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I know alopecia is on the rise again, you know, it's it's like these kind of things.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I always ask these questions because, you know, for everyone listening out there, if you want safe options, you know, you don't always have to go for the brands that are like super medical tape everywhere, you know what I mean, and like medical like labeling and stuff.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, sometimes you just have to go for the brands that um, you know, maybe you found like, you know, just by accident, by a happy accident.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And if it works, it works.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that's scientifically viable.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: If it works, it's scientifically viable.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think that we definitely take a lot of feedback from our customers, and you know, for example, our soap bars, which we we actually make the soap base from scratch ourselves, and um, it's quite a high coconut oil content.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: And the feedback we get from you know, uh mothers using it with for their children saying it's the only soap they can use because other soaps make their the them break out in eczema.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and just you know, getting that feedback is just kind of validated that we're we're making products that people like and they don't break out using them.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um and yeah, I yeah, just listening to the customer.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Coconut oil is actually really great, by the way.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad that you brought that ingredient up because I have been trying, I keep you now, I've been trying to convince people about how great of an ingredient this is.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because when I, you know, when I was younger, and even in India, I'm from India.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, in India, the common uh natural practice and cultural practice is to use coconut oil for babies, you know, for young children and as a hair massage.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason they do that is because it's the safest oil that you can use for children, it doesn't have any detrimental effects, you know what I mean?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: It it leaves you with a nourished scalp, a nourished, you know, overall healthy scalp.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I I love that.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you have that in your product.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sorry, it's in nearly all of our products.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's a great ingredient.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Dion, I have a I have a question for you, and that is really about this idea of um, you know, I read a paper a while ago which was about um just natural fragrances or just you know certain things that attract I guess male consumers to products and I want to ask you are any of your products fragrant you know do they have fragrances because I know that um when we're talking about natural the problem is that you know most consumers don't realize natural fragrances are actually the leading cause of allergic breakouts versus synthetic fragrances and um this always is very interesting to me when I look at the male consumer because I know men are very you know there's a whole different mindset there.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_05: So I would love to get your feedback on you know what are some of the things that you had to really kind of you know uh I guess weed out or filter out when you were creating your products um in that way yeah um sorry I forgot I had whether I had my mute on or not um yeah the um we we we do use um fragrances and in some products uh at quite low levels but we've we think that the fragrance is actually a really important part of of skincare especially for men um you know it's one of the things that if you feel like it smells good when you're putting it on as opposed to uh you know something that puts you slightly off that that initial experience is really important um but we have gone out of our way to use um either either the ingredients of the fragrance so things like peppermint or or or mint extracts and things like that at really low levels or we've gone and and um used uh you know um low levels of fragrance that that we've practiced on and and feel really confident in um but we've always tried to make them herbal and earthy in in in terms of our tone so our overall fragrance feels very natural uh in our ingredient and I think that it that having a uh almost a a point of reference for a fragrance for your brand is is quite important.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_05: It just sort of helps uh ground you in one place.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_05: So we don't add fragrance if it if we don't feel that the product needs it.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_05: So for example you know a scrub which has really great clays and volcanic ash and and just smells really great anyway um you know we would never add anything to that um likewise you know a peppermint um shampoo or something like that whereas uh you know maybe a pomade which um has a slightly more synthetic fragrance we might uh add something in there so I think it um you know it definitely it's something that we believe a fragrance is important but with something that we try to make sure we've done all the due diligence we can so that there's no adverse effects but we've never we've never had any feedback to that effect.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah no that's wonderful and I'm glad and I and I'd ask for that because I feel like with men you know for the feedback I've gotten at least from just my listeners and stuff it's like you know if it smells manly whatever that means they're more likely to use it rather than if it smells like flowers and you know just uh you know jasmine lavender and stuff so yeah I mean that's interesting that's interesting um I actually uh you know I think my one of my biggest questions and this for you Anthony I one of my big questions is you know what are some of the ingredients and I and I think actually this for everybody here you know the whole panel um what are some of the ingredients that are native to New Zealand that you've really found to be uh very unique and very very um efficacious for your products um that you utilize um in you know what whatever you're creating any examples you could give us yeah um so I'm not the uh I'm not the formulation expert here but um but we've um we've used ingredients Harakiki flax extract um which is uh which is which is a great extract I think that part of the challenges um with using New Zealand native ingredients when you're exporting around the world is that it's it's a lack of awareness around the world and there's quite an education piece that needs to go around that um but um but wherever we can we do you know we've used um manuka honey um extract uh harakiki you know there's there's a whole bunch of um sorry what i was gonna say about the fragrances is your dion um with triumph and disaster has done a phenomenal job with your fragrances and when you you know when you look at consumers when they see a product and the new product first thing they do they look at it and they smell it and it's just such an important part of the business and and part of the product experience as well so yeah yeah sorry I was just gonna say and also I think like there are some really as Anthony said the challenge of New Zealand ingredients is quite often they are unknown but there are some amazing ones out there.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_05: There's um you know things like punga fern which is a native fern which has got the polysaccharide chain in it which is um Lucas Meyer French company came down and did a whole bunch of studies in the 80s around some of the native herbs and and and plants in New Zealand.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_05: So there's some great sort of science there that we've can draw on and and they and it's the efficacy is there.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_05: But the challenge as um Anthony points out is a small country and quite often them um these are best known and from their Maori names and um that doesn't always translate so it's a hard thing to sell but there's definitely some amazing um base ingredients kawaka is another one and Horopito which is the I think the oldest flowering plant in the world and its defense system is just a chemical that runs through its leaves.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm sure a lot like all of all of our brands all use these products that it's definitely part of our culture to to try to use them.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love that and you know uh Anthony you had brought up something about the education aspect of like um importing or like you know exporting products like I I would love uh for both you Dion and you know Anthony for you to comment on that what do you think is uh really lacking there in terms of education you know when it comes to bringing New Zealand based products out of New Zealand and into like you know for example United States or the UK like what is what do you think is the big um hurdle there?
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_04: Are there any like regulations around it or or how does that work um yeah there's there's there's definitely um regulation regulatory challenges um you know there's the rules aren't the same in New Zealand and Australia versus the US for example uh particularly in California um so there is some challenges around that yeah yeah I think it's just the weight of weight of voice you know I think the the honey industry in New Zealand's done a great job for Manuka as a as an ingredient and Manuka now is is that's extended into many more categories as an ingredient and the properties of it.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_05: But you know from a on a cosmetics scale where you know as a country we're a very small uh and new player so so just trying to get that time that voice out there and and constant messaging it just takes time and I think money as well.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely absolutely and I think um from from our point of view we're seeing you know consumers are getting educated you know at home on social media with celebrities they're going in a store looking for certain ingredients and they're shopping by ingredient and in a lot of cases particularly in skinky um and um and trying to fight that sort of that wave of information that consumers are getting um can be a bit of a challenge so you do definitely need to formulate with uh you know with ingredients and with trending here ingredients that that people understand when they're walking in store and then bombarded by a myriad of brands.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right right now I know with Manuka it was a big trend for a long time it was everywhere literally you know all over TikTok all over um you know Instagram and I always used to wonder it's like you know well I think I think one of my biggest problems is and you know this is a great uh panel for me to mention this in is this cultural appropriation aspect where it's like you know the the due diligence has to be done when it comes to giving credit where it's due.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um you know even though New Zealand is a small country as you mentioned um Dion it's it's not it doesn't mean that you don't give credit where it's due.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I oftentimes I'll see you know some great ingredients you know that do come from different parts of the world and you know maybe those parts of the world are not as recognized in the skincare space as much as they should be but at the end of the day you know we have this terrible toxic environment that takes place where um you know those ingredients kind of get um stolen in a way you know and and everyone kind of takes credit for that.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I I really you know that bothers me a lot.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I would love to get you guys' opinion on that in terms of have you noticed that have you ever witnessed that happening with New Zealand based ingredients or you know is that just something that I mean maybe I'm going crazy now only I'm noticing it certainly it certainly does happen.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_04: You know we've seen um uh a US multinational um in mass markets and mass retailers in the US you know appropriating you know manica honey um with a with a cultural story behind it as well which um which we found um a little bit distasteful but um but yeah it does happen you know um you know particularly when uh consumers are shopping on trend manufacturers are looking for those trends and they'll just they'll look for whatever whatever's really going to resonate with the consumer right right well I would like to thank um everyone here you know thank you so much for uh being part of this panel you know so if you brand Dion and uh Anthony this has been so lovely to chat with you to learn from you um I'm a huge fan of New Zealand like I said and you know it sounds like everything that you guys are doing and your visions are truly extraordinary and it's it's been such an honor to host you for this panel discussion.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for having us it's uh it's an honor to be talking about these guys and girls so thanks for having us yeah thank you so hopefully you learned everyone's founding stories sorry sorry it's been an honor and everyone listening I really hope that you've learned something here um if you want to check out all of the brands I'm going to tag everything in the uh art assets for this episode and I really encourage you to check out each of the brands and really do a deep dive you know and and learn about not only the brand but also the culture of New Zealand and the and the ecosystem and all the wonderful things that contribute to creating a very uh sustainable and healthy brand.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you know stay tuned for that and definitely leave us your comments keep this conversation going if you have any questions at all for you know any of the uh panel participants here definitely leave them in the comments section and I'll pass them along but again thank you so much and I will be back next time.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 54:47
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• 55:54
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