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Episode #32: Joel's Tips on How to Start a Garden · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that you grow something you like to eat.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times people get so enamored of exotic and strange and all that.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, just what do your kids like?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: What do you like?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's much better to grow two or three things that you like to eat than try to grow a great big variety that um is gonna push your your dietary.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, welcome to Beyond Labels.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Dr.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McKella, with my amazing co-host, Joel Salatin.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Joel, how are you doing?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Sina.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing I'm doing pretty good, I guess.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: We've we we we've had some technical difficulties here this morning.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it uh anybody that knows my uh you know, my anti-technology bent knows that um I just I basically just shut down when the when the computer doesn't do what I want it to do.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I just I just uh close it and go out and get the chainsaw and go cut some trees.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: But we persevered, right?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: 40 minutes later, we got his Zoom camera working.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So goodness gracious.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: So and I'm glad we did because today we have a time-sensitive topic, one of my favorites.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be talking about Joel's tips on starting a garden.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm very interested in getting Joel's opinion because um I have started gardening and stopped gardening for many years now, um, sometimes more successful than others.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And yesterday, my my two sons and I just started gardening again.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So this is perfect timing for us as well.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I have lots of questions for you.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, let's start with something pretty basic.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, Joel, if somebody is now interested in starting a garden, where should they begin?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, such a such a huge question.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, you need to you need to you need to pick a spot.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and you know, light is really critical.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you don't want to go under a shade tree.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, you you want to have for for vegetables, you want pretty full light.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want you don't want shade um in general.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then I I think the next uh important thing is to decide um how big it's going to be.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And my advice is always small.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh smaller is better.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh people get over ambitious.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't done this, man, you know, a four foot by eight foot, a four-foot by literally a four foot by eight foot bed, that's a sheet of a plywood, all right.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um to grow you know several things.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I encourage you to start small.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: The the next thing is just kind of kind of design, layout, that sort of thing.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a big believer in beds, uh, rather than just you know uh uh take a spot and start spading it up.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a big believer in in beds.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: One of the reasons is because it's so child friendly.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you need for your children to know this is garden, this is not garden.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Here's where you can walk, here's where you can't walk.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh, you know, you can, you know, if you're if you're just starting it right now, I mean, obviously you can get a spade and and and uh uh spade some things up, but you know, if you have some um another great way is to um just lay down some uh cardboard.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, okay, so you've got your yard, identify where this is going to be, um you know, get some get some uh uh border planks or something to you know to get you some a little bit of elevation there, uh, even if it's just six or seven inches, but but a clear border uh so that's to clearly defined so the kids know that they don't walk in there and then and then just lay on sheets of cardboard.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: That'll kill the grass, kill the weeds, and kill everything else.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, but but it'll eventually rot, and then you'll have your you know, you'll have your your your uh your place ready and then um and then you know uh uh mulch mulch is is is critical.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you can um you know on that cardboard, obviously, you you want to put some compost and some dirt.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you can't just put compost.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Compost is by itself is too rich.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you need you need dirt and compost.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um uh so put that on the cardboard, you know, it doesn't have to be real thick, uh, you know, six or seven inches deep is is fine.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then the main thing on top of that is you want mulch, and and mulch can be uh wood chips, it can be um uh old, you know, uh a straw, leaves, leaves work extremely well.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh uh I mean you can get you can get something from the garden store, uh, but I prefer to be a scrounger and you can, you know, uh uh scrounge up some some stuff.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh obviously, uh this is more difficult if you haven't thought about this before.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: The the actually the time to start thinking about the garden is in the fall, uh, so that you can do this kind of prep work.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then this time of year, you just plant.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um if if you're trying to prepare, it's it gets a little bit gets a little bit uh uh dicey.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I've made garden beds over the years, just literally laying down uh you know uh a cardboard on sod, you know, your lawn, putting on um a bunch of a bunch of mulch.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the recipe is let sit for one year, and in one year hence, it's going to be this earthworm rich, uh just it let them do the tilling.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm you know, um 40 years ago, if you'd asked this question, I'd say, well, you get your garden tiller and you go out there, you rent a toro garden tiller and you you till this thing up.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and I'm not a I'm not a fan of that anymore.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm uh much more um gentle.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you want to get a tying spade, again, a four by eight is not too much that you can go out there with a tying spade and you can kind of rip up, rip up the sod, you know, and you can have a nice bed.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just just get that sod out of there.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and but again, as soon as you plant, get that mulch on there.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, such quick tips.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well organized.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And this really resonates with me.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: I started my garden years ago with doing the rows, right?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I had mounds and then I even put little pebbles in between the walk, the walkways.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: And just like you cautioned, I started big, like really big.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: I thought bigger's better.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna start growing 80% of all of our food, right?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Totally gung-ho, and ended up just fizzling out.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was just too much with having a young child, and that's when I was getting sick too at the time.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And one time my girlfriend came over and she go, she saw my garden.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: She's an avid gardener, and she says to me, What are you trying to do?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Feed a whole community here?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because I didn't have any concept of how much I needed to plant in order to feed our family.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that that attempt did not work.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: We tried again.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the kids, like you said, they would walk on my mounds, right?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: They would just start pulling out the plants.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was like, no, just pull out the unwanted plant, the weeds.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: That didn't work.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: So this year, what we've done is we've gotten a cedar bed, right?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I didn't want to use um, you know, you can go down and get all kinds of wood, but I didn't want to use wood that's been chemically treated.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we found this non-treated cedar bed.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the boys are old enough now they could help me with gardening.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I have an 18-month-old who, again, will walk all over my dirt and compact it and pull things out.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyhow, we just built this cedar bed.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, like you said, we are I'm also opposed to tilling.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we did not till whatsoever.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to disturb the microbes, you know, the microbiome that's in that soil.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we didn't till, we did what you said, we just you know put down the compost and the soil.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yesterday we just planted some lettuce.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now I have a couple questions for you.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what I'm almost hesitant to hear the answer in case I didn't do it right.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: But what is the ratio that you would suggest of soil to compost?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, it in general, probably uh two part soil, one part compost.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: How high can you go in the compost?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do you could you do like 50-50?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: 50-50.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: It would depend a little bit on how on how broken down the compost is.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's better compost and and uh not as good compost.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so you know, if it's extremely, extremely broken down, um, then you could probably go 50-50.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And some of that depends on your soil, too.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: If your soil's real sandy, uh it's whether your soil is real sandy or clayy.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if it's if it's reddish clay, um then uh you probably can go with a little higher ratio in compost.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: If it's sandier, you probably want a little bit lower because it'll it'll just it'll it'll be too loose.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um yay.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: We did it right.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we did we have compacted clay and we did uh roughly 50-50 of soil to compost, and it's really well um broken down compost.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And if anyone's listening, we're gonna do another podcast a little bit later about um Joel's tips on how to build compost.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I also planted lettuce, right?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I started simple this time, I scaled way down, and I decided to start with just a couple different types of plants and you know, to make it simple for me.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started with lettuce because I remember quite some time ago you recommended to me that if I was ever going to garden, that um I would start growing lettuce.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And do you want to tell our listeners why you pick lettuce?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, lettuce is really easy.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, it's almost bulletproof.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you can and you can get multiple pickings off of it.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not just a one and done deal.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can pick some leaves and and and it'll just continue to produce and produce and produce.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: You if you grow a carrot, you know, you pick the carrot, the carrot's gone.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: But you can go out there and and take some leaves of lettuce and just just continue to, you know, take take leaves as they come on and uh and extend, you know, and and and have a uh like a six-week, you know, six to eight week um production cycle off of the off of your plants.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's not and and and you know, leafy greens are really really really important in your diet.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're they're probably um the other reason is that they're the single biggest contributor to uh salmonella, E.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: coli, all of the the pathogens.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people think when they think about you know, um uh these these uh problems in food, they think meat, but actually it's not meat, it's it's generally the greens.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um the one thing you don't want to buy out of the store is uh leafy greens because they think because they they don't have uh Cena, you can address this better, but they don't have a kill step.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, meat, you're gonna cook it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it has a kill step.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Heat.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Heat is a kill step.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Freezing is also a kill step.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Both freezing and heat can be kill steps in in bacterial proliferation like E.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: coli, salmonella, you know, listeria, things like that.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: But green, leafy greens don't have any kill step.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: They're picked, they're they're you know, they're just washed, they're damp, they're uh cool, um, there is no kill step.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why something like 95% of all foodborne uh bacterial illnesses come from leafy greens.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's probably the single biggest reason to start there in growing your own food, because you can really protect yourself from you know from things like that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'll add one caveat that you know when you get the the lettuce, um like the salad mixes um in the grocery store, like those little plastic bags that have the loose pieces of lettuce in them, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Those those are sometimes um dipped in a chlorine-based solution.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: But the loose, uh, but like if you're getting a head of lettuce, um, I think that's what you're referring to, those are not sterilized, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Unlike those packages that are often sterilized.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: The the the chlorine, the chlorine uh baths in like things like mescaline mix, uh, and those those uh those leafy green cocktails.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the leafy green cocktails are just really, really um whatever, few they're almost fumigated, you know, uh because the industry knows that that's that that's the most vulnerable part of any um of any food system.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um the other thing is to to be very aware of your temperature.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now, uh Cena, you live in Richmond, you're about you're about two or three weeks ahead of us, warmer than us here out in the out in the hinterlands of the mountains in uh Virginia.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so you have a little earlier season.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't have any plants in the garden yet, but we have plants in hoop houses.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you can you can extend your season uh with either cloaches.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, if you're in a cold area, you can extend, you can really, I mean, obviously the the the old tried and true is the cold frame, a true cold frame that's that uses you know uh uh compost and soil and actual glass, and it's earth sheltered.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you you know you dig down a couple feet and then and then it's only sticking up a bit, so you get earth, you know, earth heat uh underneath there, and then you get this uh glass top, and you can actually grow things um, you know, unless you get down to zero, you can grow things almost you cool things.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, uh the the the potted the the bedding plant people, the the the starch people, they love all the people that want to push the season on tomatoes and uh peppers, um, because a lot of times those get planted about three times because they get frosted before um you know, before ready.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if you you know, a simple uh soil temperature thermometer is really a uh a nice little tool to have stick it in there and uh make sure your soil temperature is up there in the you know 60, 65 degree range before you plant uh any of those warm seasons, those uh tomatoes and peppers and and cucumbers and and those frost things.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: But the you know, things like peas, peas, beets, carrots, lettuces, the all pretty much all the leafy greens, uh they are all very cool hardy.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, they love cold.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so as long as the soil is like 40 degrees, uh, you can probably, and they can they can do a light frost.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in fact, uh, you know, things like broccoli and stuff, they can do a fairly heavy frost, actually, you know, down to like 20 degrees Fahrenheit, uh, they'll they'll still survive.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: But even so, there there are things you could like like Rime.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is a this is a polybond material.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a it's a uh webbed woven material like a blanket.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a spun, it's a spun material.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: It breathes, so it lets water in, lets air in, but keeps out uh bugs and it helps to cool so that in the if you're gonna have a uh high pressure system, there's no cloud cover, and they're gonna call for it to get down to you know 28, 29 degrees.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can put that polybond cover.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very light.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's very easy to handle and um and and it's not as not as wind prone as something like plastic.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and you can just throw it over and it'll it'll buy you about 10 degrees of protection simply because it's holding in the daytime temperature in the soil.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Soil's a tremendous heat mass.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So when the so when you have a warm day, let's say it's you know 50 degrees, not a real warm day, but you know, um that that soil will warm up.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can throw that polybond over your over your bed at night and uh on a like a 28-degree night, and it'll it'll stay up there about 38 instead of 28.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: There, and for plants, there's a huge difference between 28 and 38.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, you know, those are the kinds of things you just uh one of the fun parts of gardening is just it it forces you um joyfully to embrace um uh to embrace our whatever, you know, our our awareness, you know, our awareness of what's going on.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we start listening to the weather and we uh we appreciate a nice rain, you know, uh the plants love it.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so it really helps you to um you know to immerse into this uh ecological womb, which is, you know, I I think is the kind of part of the beginning of common sense.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I completely agree.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I've used that um kind of like that blanket that you're talking about.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um I we that actually saved our cauliflower one year.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we had like these half um, they were metal, kind of like these half arches, and we'd stick them in the ground and then we laid the blanket over the top of it.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it did, it saved our our crop um from an unexpected cold cold front that came in.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So those can really be a lifesaver.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it also can save you from a lot of bugs, um and and um, you know, especially things like like cauliflower, is real susceptible to bugs, as is things are uh things like cabbage.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, cabbage is very cool, hardy, um, but it's very very bug prone.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so that polybond can really um uh you know protect your crop.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, Elliot Coleman, who is the guru of gar of organic gardening in in America, um, and I recommend, I highly recommend his books to anybody that's thinking about a garden, the the new organic grower and um you know the four seasons harvest.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he is the he is the guy.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he says he he doesn't even think about growing squash without polybond.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um what he does is he you know he plants, and then he puts that over, and the plants just you kind of put it on loose, and the plants just kind of keep pushing it up and pushing it up.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: They grow fine.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then as soon as he sees a blossom, he takes it off so that the bees can pollinate.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: But by that time, the plant is strong enough that it's not susceptible to squash bugs, squash bugs attack, attack squash plants um young.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: You don't you don't see it, you don't see the damage until you about the time you get blossoms.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's when you start seeing the damage.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: But they have come, they those those little larvae have entered those stems when they're very, very tender and young.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: So uh anyway, yeah, that these these materials are we are blessed today with some really, really cool high-tech, high-tech materials that make gardening uh you know much easier than it was a long time ago.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Cena, how high are your beds?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: You you got these cedar, you got some sort of cedar um uh cedar planks or cedar poles or something.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: How how high are they?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: So mine is about um 10 inches um all around.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it has a little um like ledge around the top of it too, so that I could sit on it, you know.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So try to sit while I'm picking, um, you know, pulling out the weeds and whatnot, because that's one thing that's deterred me in the past was you know, my low back would start hurting from pulling out, spending all this time pulling out weeds.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: So mine has a little ledge around it, so I can kind of sit down as I'm trying to pull the weeds.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: So so I I really encourage uh um higher beds.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, something 24 to 30 inches, even.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, I I really encourage for a number of reasons.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: One is it's one is it gets it away from groundhogs and rabbits.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they they you know they they can't jump up there and and get up there.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and for the very reason you described your lower back to to actually get you something up here more like like table height.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um now, so what do you you know, you got a bed like that?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: My goodness, what are you gonna fill it with?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're familiar with the um the Austrian German principle of Hugal culture, um H-U-G-U-L let me write it down here.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I H-U-G-U-L-K-U-L-T-U-R.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's it's a German word, Hugal culture.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um it what it is, it it is a it is a uh there, they don't actually use it in beds, they use it to make windrows.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you take just junk wood.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Think think about like firewood that that that got old, you know, and it's half rotten.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: uh or or some logs or whatever just just any kind of wood residue branches um you know uh yard waste okay and and you simply you simply pile that um and and that becomes the bulk of your thing and then you fill in with your soil and and and dirt just very very light on top uh uh not a lot and um that way you can very cheaply what i'm getting at is it is if you have a bed that's 30 inches deep uh and you try to fill that you're gonna bankrupt yourself trying to actually you know bring in material to to fill that and so um so by filling it with just junk old scrap wood i mean just anything as long you don't want to chemicals i mean even even old pallets you know that you just bust up as long as they're not you know painted and pressure treated um but just just dump a bunch of uh wood waste in there let that be the bulk of your material and then you just skiff your top uh like you would any any uh little uh bed with with some soil and some and some compost on top um that gets you up there you know in the 30 inch range now now you're basically working on a table and it and it's real real great um you know ergonomically for your you know it it just it's just as real good I've seen people actually actually uh take plastic drums you know uh 55 gallon drums and just cut them in half and put them on legs and just make a garden out of uh plastic drums cut in half you know filled with soil and compost and and um you know a couple uh you know about about uh three three inches of gravel in the bottom with a couple little drain holes you know and um it's amazing i i've i've i i've been in a lot of situations you know we've done a lot of different kinds of gardens and um and there's just really something magical about getting up getting that elevation uh higher where you're you're actually working um you know working conducive to your back and your body um but the the problem is what are you gonna fill it with you know that's always the problem and so this junk would and what happens is this this junk wood as it decomposes and it's gonna decompose very very slowly uh but what it does is it creates a lot of fungus and and and the fungal the fungal bacteria feeds the mycorrhizae in the root structure and so your vegetables their their roots actually come down and they actually entwine into this old wood residue and um and and and you have all those hyphae and those those those um uh filaments running through uh the fungus and it actually is uh uh extremely you know beneficial for your um for your garden plants I love that idea so I and I've seen people do those the plastic barrels um but I'm opposed to growing in plastic so I wouldn't do that one but I love this idea of this race bed um you know with the logs and the branches um because I've put logs and branches down in um other beds that I've created and it did it really enriched the soil and my my crop yields so I love that concept the hurdle the financial hurdle is going to be all the cedar boards to get them up there you know what I mean but like you said if I plan ahead next time right you can you can you can prepare financially for that because that would be that's so much more enticing than having to bend over.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now um in the time remaining I have another question for you so seed sourcing your seeds um I wanted to get your opinion I'm a big supporter of buying heirloom seeds that have also been grown organically like they don't have to be certified USDA organic but just grown organically or regeneratively so so those are the two things main things that I look for buying seeds but what do you say?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah uh absolutely I couldn't agree more um I mean uh uh there are there are numerous seed companies I mean seed saver seed exchanges southern exposure seed exchange john's selected seeds there are uh numerous uh Shumways has a big I mean few few things make you think spring like February when the seed catalogs arrive uh so um there are a few more enjoyable things to do on a on a wintry February day than look at your seed catalogs and start dreaming about uh summer.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: So uh my kids you know how like toy catalogs come in the mail still right legal catalogs we get the seed catalog from Southern Exposure Seed Exchange and my kids look through that seed catalog as though it's a catalog of toys they get so excited picking out what seeds they want to try to grow that year.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's wonderful it is and all the colors and shapes and and uh descriptions I mean it's uh yeah it's a wonderful it's just a wonderful uh thing so uh yeah yeah um uh be be careful about where you get your seeds and patronize uh patronize the companies that are you know that are trying to do the right thing yeah let me close out with one final question going back to that cover blanket that we talked about um since you know we're promoting um organic regenerative um gardening here insects as you mentioned are can be an issue right I've lost many crops to insects and I sometimes I just got tired of picking the bugs off of them you know so I gave up let the bugs have it can is um how you said Coleman uses that that blanket over his squash can I use that blanket kind of as a preventative for bugs over any crop that I'm growing like could that just be part of my you know early preventative um protocol that I use yes yes absolutely it it it it's so light that it actually that the the the plant the vegetables will actually push it up you know that they'll just you can just leave it on there and and they'll you know they'll just they'll just push it up um and one one thing the uh the one thing I want to say too to folks as a tip is to make sure that you grow something you like to eat um a lot of times people get so enamored of of exotic and strange and all that no just what do your kids like what do you like and it's much better to grow two or three things that you like to eat than try to grow a great big variety and of uh that that um is gonna push your your dietary and uh so you know the base the the basics again um you know your your leafy greens uh give you a salad you know uh carrots are real easy um they need to be thinned they can get uh two too uh tight uh beets um if you know the value I mean the the uh the medicinal and nutritional value of beets is huge all that red that that um that color uh is is really um important and then you know who who who can go a summer without growing a tomato plant i mean there is nothing like a homegrown tomato homegrown tomato is like you know the ultimate and i think it's because tomatoes are so tender that that they're very very difficult to grow industrially and transport long distances because they are so tender and uh as opposed to something like you know butternut squash which is kind of it's kind of tough anyway throw that in a box you can put that in the back of a tractor trailer and ship it across the country and it's not all that damaged but but tomatoes you know they are they are made to be um in in real time right now out the back door succulent uh tender so there there's a variety of um uh again the leafy greens uh much more perishable than say a carrot uh carrot or potato all right that that's that's a tougher kind of so think about that and you know what's what's watery uh tender highly perishable you know uh and what do you like those kinds of things um and and most of us most of us about you know half a dozen things is about all that that really fills well concentrate on that you know don't don't push yourself with exotics and weird stuff you know eggplant you can probably live a season without eggplant and um and and so you know play with that and then as soon as you get your garden up and running then start thinking about perennials i mean we i'm I'm an asparagus lover one of the beauties of asparagus is you know it comes back year after year after year you don't have to replant it uh rhubarb we have a huge rhubarb bed on a on a terrace uh out there and I mean it just grows you know it it it again huge huge medicinal nutritional uh qualities and uh very early in the spring for us rhubarb is like the really harbinger of spring when when we see rhubarb coming up we know spring is here and um and so you know those perennials you don't have to plant all the time those are those are great too I know we're out of time but it's been uh great to share with this and um and there is nothing like um nothing like growing your own food picking it and then taking it in to your to your family and enjoying it together.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: I love that I mean now I'm even more inspired that we are going to be successful this year in our gardening.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll just add since I I have young children still one thing they love growing are any kind of root vegetables you know they digging them up like they get their hands in the soil and they're trying to find them and they call it their treasure hunt.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And they get so excited when they pull them out of the ground.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's also kind of a fun thing for the kids to do and it builds their microbiome right as they're getting their hands and breathing in the microbes.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a win win all around.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well Joel, this has been fascinating very helpful and I can tell this is going to be just podcast number one of many more gardening podcasts to come especially as I have more questions.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we appreciate your expertise.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you Joel absolutely