Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Gorgeous Podcaster, Husband Murdered by Stalker

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Gorgeous Podcaster, Husband Murdered by Stalker · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a wildly popular and beautiful
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Speaker 1: Seattle podcast. Her and her ex Google engineer husband murdered
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Speaker 1: and they're one point six million dollar home. But why
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Speaker 1: I mean, Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thanks for
0:31
Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation in series x
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Speaker 1: M one eleven. First of all, take a listen to
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Speaker 1: our friends at ABC. Police say this man, thirty eight
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Speaker 1: year old Ramine Hoda Karamzi, stalked, shot, and killed podcaster
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Speaker 1: Zori Sadegi and her husband Active Paus situation. A neighbor
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Speaker 1: says their security camera caught the commotion overnight. There was
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Speaker 1: blood curdling. Investigators say Hodo karam res I listened to
1:00
Speaker 1: Sadegi's live podcast for people who speak Farsi looking for
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Speaker 1: jobs in the tech industry, and befriended her through a
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Speaker 1: chat app. They communicated, but things quickly escalated. In the
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Speaker 1: first homicide in the city of Redmond since twenty twenty one,
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Speaker 1: a crazed stalker obsessed with the woman killed her and
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Speaker 1: her husband before turning the gun on himself. This is
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Speaker 1: the absolute worst outcome, you know, for a stalking case.
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Speaker 1: Police Chief Darryl Lowe says, this man thirty eight year
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Speaker 1: old Romaine from Texas is the suspect. He came to
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Speaker 1: the neighborhood and this red truck Tuesday overnight. The suspect
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Speaker 1: broke into the home via bedroom window, that bedroom being
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Speaker 1: the mother's. She did encounter the suspect. She was aware
1:44
Speaker 1: of what was occurring, and she knew or realized that
1:48
Speaker 1: she needed to get out and get help, police say.
1:50
Speaker 1: The mother of the wife ran for her life to
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Speaker 1: a neighbor's house to call nine one one. When officers arrived,
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Speaker 1: the mother and neighbor led them to the home. As
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Speaker 1: officers approached the front of the home, a meal later
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Speaker 1: identified as the husband of the victim was seen in
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Speaker 1: a doorway. How did this whole thing unfold in a
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Speaker 1: happy marriage and a wonderful podcast as it were? How
2:13
Speaker 1: did this guy get to them? With me an all
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Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know right now?
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Speaker 1: But first I'm want to go to Isabel Vincent, investigative
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Speaker 1: reporter for The New York Post and author of Overture
2:26
Speaker 1: of Hope, Two Sisters, Daring plan that saved Opera's Jewish
2:31
Speaker 1: stars from the third Reich okay wow to that. You
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Speaker 1: can find her at Isabel Vincent dot com. Isabel, thank
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Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. Now I understand
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Speaker 1: that the victim, this gorgeous young woman is Zori, somehow
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Speaker 1: met the killer in a podcast. I've also heard it
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Speaker 1: described as a chat room. Which one was it? Do
3:02
Speaker 1: you know us about? Well, from from everything that I
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Speaker 1: that I could see, it was a chat room. She
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Speaker 1: met him. They developed a kind of online friendship that
3:15
Speaker 1: started to turn very dark when he kept calling her um.
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Speaker 1: He started to call her husband UM. And we're talking
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Speaker 1: like at one point he called her the suspect called
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Speaker 1: her a hundred times a day UM. And you know,
3:32
Speaker 1: one of the things I want to stress is that
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Speaker 1: this woman today he she had just had back surgery
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Speaker 1: and she was practically immobile. UM. So from November of
3:45
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, we see that she contacted the police
3:49
Speaker 1: because she started to get really concerned about this and
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Speaker 1: then at you know, at a at one point, the
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Speaker 1: trucker shows up at her home with some flowers. Oh
4:01
Speaker 1: my goodness. You know, hold on, Isabel, Guys, you're hearing
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Speaker 1: the voice of Isabel Vincent. I'm sure you know her well.
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Speaker 1: Investigative reporter for the New York Posts and author of
4:12
Speaker 1: an incredible book with me. Renounced psychologist out of Manhattan,
4:17
Speaker 1: Karen Stark an expert in this field. You can find
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Speaker 1: her at Karen Stark dot com. That's Karen with a
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Speaker 1: See Karen. How is it that people become attached seemingly
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Speaker 1: over the internet. This is she's a well known podcaster.
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Speaker 1: But they're in a chatman was where they first met.
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Speaker 1: How does that intimacy bond build up, or at least
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Speaker 1: on the part of one of them. It is kind
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Speaker 1: of delusional, Nancy, the one person stock in person, the
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Speaker 1: one on the internet. It begins to imagine that there's
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Speaker 1: more to the relationship than is actually happening. So suppose
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Speaker 1: you and I close friends, right, and we're talking to
5:02
Speaker 1: each other, and then all of a sudden, I decide
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Speaker 1: that I'm your best friend. You could do without me.
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Speaker 1: I've got to be with you all the time. And
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Speaker 1: it's a real attempt to control and be dependent on
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Speaker 1: the other person. Well, we're hearing Isabel Vinca describe how
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Speaker 1: they meet the chat room, and he identifies this podcaster
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Speaker 1: and he becomes obsessed with her. With every case, when
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Speaker 1: you're trying to establish what happened you first look at
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Speaker 1: your victim. Who is your victim? Is your victim a prostitute?
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Speaker 1: Is that how she met the killer? Is your victim?
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Speaker 1: An addict? Is the killer? Her supplier is your victim?
5:45
Speaker 1: A dope dealer? Is she supplying dope? Is your victim
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Speaker 1: involved in any nefarious activity? You look at that first,
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Speaker 1: and believe me, this woman was examined every which way.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Dave matt a crime
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Speaker 1: online dot com. Zora Sadeggi and her husband Mohammed Nasai,
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Speaker 1: we're active on social media. They posted about their love
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Speaker 1: of science fiction. They posted about progressive politics and human
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Speaker 1: rights in Iran. They posted about their love of technology.
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Speaker 1: Both Sadeggi and Nasare were software engineers. Nasri blogged about
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Speaker 1: his efforts to get a job at Google in twenty seventeen.
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Speaker 1: He did, and he worked there for five years before
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Speaker 1: going to Amazon. Sadegi worked at Promontory Mortgage path until
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Speaker 1: it closed doors late last year. While Sadegi has been
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Speaker 1: looking for a new job, she was also a podcaster
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Speaker 1: of sorts, curating a chat room on the app Clubhouse
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Speaker 1: for Farsi speaking individuals who like Sadegi. We're trying to
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Speaker 1: find jobs in the tech world. To say the couple
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Speaker 1: was successful would be accurate. Married since twenty eleven, they
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Speaker 1: bought a one point six million dollar home in Redmond, Washington,
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Speaker 1: famous for being the site of Microsoft's headquarters. You know
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Speaker 1: when it's come like that, Isabel Vincent joining us from
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Speaker 1: the New York Post. They sound like a perfect cup. Well,
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Speaker 1: I mean, I know, believe me, I know Isabel from
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Speaker 1: trying so many homicides. When you look at people on
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Speaker 1: the outside, it looks like a Hallmark movie, but it's
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Speaker 1: not always that way. I mean, look at her. She
7:15
Speaker 1: looks like a model, the beautiful brown eyes, the perfect brows,
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Speaker 1: her hair's back and as my daughter calls it, a
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Speaker 1: messy bun, perfect teeth. I mean, she's gorgeous. The husband
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Speaker 1: also handsome, and these beautiful futures in front of them.
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Speaker 1: You know who it's reminding me of Isabel. It's reminding
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Speaker 1: me of Scott Peterson, because I said at the trial
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Speaker 1: every day and many people Isabel, not me, but many
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Speaker 1: people thought Scott Peterson is so handsome. He's got a
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Speaker 1: college degree, he's got this beautiful, perfect smile, he's a
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Speaker 1: golf phenom. He's got this beautiful wife home. Okay, I'll
8:01
Speaker 1: admit I looked in the windows of the home. It
8:05
Speaker 1: looked like a dollhouse, Isabelle. It was beautifully decorated, Lacy
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Speaker 1: Peter Peterson had done this beautiful job on it. They're
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Speaker 1: expecting their first child, a baby boy, loving and laws
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Speaker 1: and parents. I mean, it was perfect, right, and then
8:24
Speaker 1: pop sat the picture of Amber Fry, who I've spoken
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Speaker 1: to many times, A lovely young woman, beautiful mistress. She
8:32
Speaker 1: had no idea he was married. So what I'm saying
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Speaker 1: is they look great, and they had this awesome up
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Speaker 1: and coming career happening to them, and at one point
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Speaker 1: six million dollar home. I mean, you think what could
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Speaker 1: go wrong? I Am I missing something, as Sabell. Is
8:49
Speaker 1: there something darker, nefarious going on in their lives that
8:52
Speaker 1: we don't know about? No, I think they were the
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Speaker 1: successful couple. I mean, looking back at public records, they bought.
8:58
Speaker 1: They bought their home in April of twenty twenty one.
9:05
Speaker 1: The home's beautiful. It has two fireplaces, it has a bar,
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Speaker 1: beautiful deck, several bedrooms in a very posh neighborhood. And
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Speaker 1: they it looks like they have been in the United
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Speaker 1: States since about twenty and fifteen. That's the earliest letter
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Speaker 1: there Isabelle. I know you're an incredible investigative reporter and
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Speaker 1: now author, but I need a shrink quickly. Karen Stark,
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Speaker 1: do you remember I don't know if it's still in
9:31
Speaker 1: the air, maybe and rerun somewhere, Jackie. Maybe you were
9:34
Speaker 1: sitting though the Martha Stewart Show, a program that would
9:39
Speaker 1: come on in the afternoons. Had to be a really
9:41
Speaker 1: long time ago, because I would watch it when I
9:43
Speaker 1: was trying cases. And this is why Karen start. She
9:48
Speaker 1: had some kind of oh was at Turkey Hill or
9:50
Speaker 1: Turkey Farm or something like that where she had a
9:52
Speaker 1: Please look it up, I need to remember. Anyway, it
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Speaker 1: was beautiful and she's perfect, and she would make all
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Speaker 1: these you know, special dishes and decorating tips, and I
10:02
Speaker 1: would be sitting there surrounded by homicide trial files, and
10:06
Speaker 1: for thirty minutes, I would just be lost in this world. Okay,
10:10
Speaker 1: same thing happens when I go on Zillah. Okay, I
10:13
Speaker 1: look and all these times I think, wow, that'd be
10:16
Speaker 1: a great backyard for the twins, or this or that
10:19
Speaker 1: I could just see us all gathered around this table
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Speaker 1: or that that den looks so great with the huge
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Speaker 1: screaming TV. Do you hear Isabel Vincent describing their home?
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Speaker 1: I do, yeah, and I'm thinking, wow, that sounds great,
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Speaker 1: and you know, it's just shattered by this crazy person.
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Speaker 1: And I'm staying crazy in the lay sense, not the
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Speaker 1: legal sense that comes and ruins their life. Did you
10:44
Speaker 1: hear what she said? Nothing the fairy, They're just minding
10:47
Speaker 1: their business. Isabel Vincent actually just scared me because it's like,
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Speaker 1: no matter what you do right, you can still be
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Speaker 1: a victim. People have Oh wait, I think I hear
10:58
Speaker 1: someone jumping in its sky to be either doctor Jensen,
11:02
Speaker 1: Lee Newbecker, Paul's like or Matthew Mangino. Who is it.
11:05
Speaker 1: I'm betting on Mangino. Well, it wasn't mean Nancy, But
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Speaker 1: I would like to say that, you know, oftentimes when
11:11
Speaker 1: we look at victims, we look for a connection somehow,
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Speaker 1: you know, something that they did that that may have
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Speaker 1: put them in a situation where they were in peril.
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Speaker 1: But it appears in this case that there is nothing
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Speaker 1: that these um, this young couple did to put themselves
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Speaker 1: in peril. Uh you have I was crazy? I disagree?
11:36
Speaker 1: This is Lee Becker Jampan guys with me is Lee
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Speaker 1: new Beecker, president of Enigma Forensics. That sounds impressed. I
11:45
Speaker 1: can't really tell what that means, but I like Enigma
11:48
Speaker 1: and I like forensics. He's at Enigma Forensics dot com. Lee,
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Speaker 1: go ahead, Well, if you're going to be online, once
11:55
Speaker 1: you put your personal cellphone number out there, you open
11:59
Speaker 1: yourself to master VELAs called me. Well, just let me
12:06
Speaker 1: finish here. In the chat rooms, people commonly share things
12:10
Speaker 1: you can find. If you have your personal phone number
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Speaker 1: out online, you can quickly locate where someone loves it.
12:16
Speaker 1: Nanswer your assistant that I spoke with. I showed her
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Speaker 1: a picture of her home. I showed her a limited
12:22
Speaker 1: amount of how you can be stocked. Well, wait a minute,
12:24
Speaker 1: who are we talking about? All right? Booker, Okay, per
12:29
Speaker 1: quit looking Rachel up online? Right there, I was demonstrating
12:33
Speaker 1: to her that she should get a Burner phone or
12:36
Speaker 1: a Google phone number to add a buffer. Hey, question
12:38
Speaker 1: to you, Lee new Becker, Lee, You're absolutely right. I
12:42
Speaker 1: assume you've read Don't Be a Victim by Myself, which
12:45
Speaker 1: talks about online dating and what you should and should
12:47
Speaker 1: not do. The same goes for everybody. So question do
12:50
Speaker 1: you and I want you to answer this once and
12:53
Speaker 1: for all. Can unadjore as B track through a cell phone? Yes, yes,
12:59
Speaker 1: A lot of people think it's got to be a landline.
13:01
Speaker 1: That's absolutely not true. You're absolutely right. You can quickly
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Speaker 1: see a Facebook all your friends and family, and people
13:09
Speaker 1: can blackmail and extort you. So you really got to
13:11
Speaker 1: be careful with your number. That's how I find people. Yes,
13:15
Speaker 1: it is. I tend to agree. You know. The reality
13:19
Speaker 1: is the algorithm that are out there today are always
13:24
Speaker 1: looking to connect data points. They take a phone number
13:27
Speaker 1: with an address and they put it together. And I
13:29
Speaker 1: can tell you, in the ten years of directly mitigating
13:33
Speaker 1: stalking suspects from killing women that they're threatening to kill
13:37
Speaker 1: every single time that suspect had information that the victim
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Speaker 1: did not think that they had and as a matter
13:44
Speaker 1: of fact, swore that they didn't have access to but
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Speaker 1: they did. Right. That's how journalists track people all the time,
13:50
Speaker 1: as looking through the friends, you know, That's how I
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Speaker 1: do it, looking through friends and comments on Facebook and
13:55
Speaker 1: all social media. I mean, people don't think that that's
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Speaker 1: you can act actually trace a whole life through that,
14:02
Speaker 1: and I end up doing that every day. Yeah, so
14:05
Speaker 1: you're hearing the voice of the vestigative reporter from the
14:07
Speaker 1: New York Post Isabel Vincent, and she's absolutely right. I
14:11
Speaker 1: want to get back to who are the victims in
14:14
Speaker 1: this case? Take another Listen to Dave matt from crime
14:17
Speaker 1: online dot Com. Sadegi's chat room on Clubhouse opened her
14:20
Speaker 1: life to many new contacts. One of those was Trucker
14:23
Speaker 1: Ramine Codor ram Razahi. He began taking part in the
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Speaker 1: online chat room in late twenty twenty one. The truckers
14:30
Speaker 1: started emailing Sadegi and messaging her to talk about the podcast.
14:34
Speaker 1: It wasn't long until the new friendship took a bad turn.
14:36
Speaker 1: Todor ram Razahi escalated his contact to the point where
14:40
Speaker 1: Sadegi became uncomfortable with the content of the messages and
14:43
Speaker 1: how often. Once he reportedly called Sadegi over one hundred
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Speaker 1: times in a single day. Sadegi tried to cut off contact.
14:51
Speaker 1: She blocked him on WhatsApp, Telegram, Instagram, and on her
14:55
Speaker 1: phone Calls application, but he began to start contacting Nazari.
15:00
Speaker 1: There are also reports that he would show up at
15:03
Speaker 1: the couple's home unannounced with gifts. Sadeggi filed for a
15:07
Speaker 1: restraining order. Karen starts psychologists joining us out of Manhattan. Karen,
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Speaker 1: when you, for instance, like she did, blocked him on asta, Facebook, Twitter,
15:16
Speaker 1: does that enrage the person or does that help? Well?
15:21
Speaker 1: And then you want to do it, but it does
15:23
Speaker 1: enrage the person because he already is feeling rejected. He
15:28
Speaker 1: decided that he had a close relationship with her and
15:33
Speaker 1: so in their friendship, all of a sudden she's rejecting him.
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Speaker 1: And look at this Nancy. He's able to get in
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Speaker 1: touch with her husband who is and making an attempt
15:43
Speaker 1: to be kind to this guy and explain that she's
15:47
Speaker 1: allowed to reject him. But he's turned this into he's
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Speaker 1: in love with her and she does not want him?
15:54
Speaker 1: And what did he do wrong? Okay, only go to
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Speaker 1: Isabel Vincent. What is clubhouse? What is that clubhouse? It's
16:03
Speaker 1: like an online chat room where people get together and exchange,
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Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of information. So this is a
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Speaker 1: form of a chat room. And can I tell you something.
16:13
Speaker 1: I'm all for chat rooms. I was in a chat
16:16
Speaker 1: room when I had the twins and I was trying
16:19
Speaker 1: to find out tips for how to feed them, how
16:21
Speaker 1: to get them on the same sleeping schedule. It was very,
16:24
Speaker 1: very helpful and to make some actually lifelong friends in there.
16:28
Speaker 1: But it's very Matthew Mangino, former prosecutor and author of
16:34
Speaker 1: The Executioner's Toll. Listen to this the crimes, arrest, Trials, Appeals,
16:39
Speaker 1: and Last Meals and final Words of forty six people
16:43
Speaker 1: in the US. I read it just because I wanted
16:45
Speaker 1: to find out about the last meals that said. I
16:49
Speaker 1: didn't listen to the last words, man, Gina, because I neither.
16:51
Speaker 1: Probably all lies anyway, like I didn't do it that
16:54
Speaker 1: kind of thing. I mean, Gino, these chat rooms. While
16:58
Speaker 1: I have been in chat rooms and asleep before, I
17:02
Speaker 1: have had so many cases linked back to chat rooms, Jackie.
17:07
Speaker 1: Can't we even count, just off the top of our heads,
17:10
Speaker 1: how many people were identified and stop through chat rooms.
17:13
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, No, especially young girls. But because those
17:17
Speaker 1: are the ones we typically cover because they're so easy
17:20
Speaker 1: to victimize. But Matthew, chat rooms they're like the devil spawn. Well, right,
17:26
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's no question that there are predators
17:29
Speaker 1: in chats, people who are trying to uh, you know,
17:33
Speaker 1: make some connection with people because they have some uh
17:37
Speaker 1: you know, criminal intent they have some idea that they
17:41
Speaker 1: that they want to take advantage of, whether it's young
17:45
Speaker 1: people or vulnerable people or just generally people who are
17:48
Speaker 1: on the internet. But but you know, the thing that
17:50
Speaker 1: concerns me is, certainly you need to be careful. But um,
17:55
Speaker 1: you know, just because someone has a digital footprint, just
17:58
Speaker 1: because somebody has their name out there and is in
18:02
Speaker 1: a chat room, you know, overseeing some conversation or has
18:08
Speaker 1: a podcast in which they express certain views, doesn't mean
18:13
Speaker 1: that that person necessarily, you know, should be fearful that
18:19
Speaker 1: they're going that there's some predator out there who's going
18:21
Speaker 1: to come after them, or that they shouldn't have that
18:24
Speaker 1: digital footprint, they shouldn't be involved on the internet because
18:29
Speaker 1: they could become a VIC. But you know what, you
18:31
Speaker 1: know what, Matthew Mangino, you are reminding me of something
18:35
Speaker 1: my husband does, and now my son's doing it. I
18:37
Speaker 1: immediately called him on it. For instance, I'll say, could
18:41
Speaker 1: you speed up? You're joving like a grandma. Okay, you're
18:45
Speaker 1: going nineteen miles an hour. I can see that on
18:47
Speaker 1: my ways. Speed up And he goes, well, do you
18:50
Speaker 1: want me to run those people down in the crosswalk?
18:52
Speaker 1: Isn't there a happy medium? Can you go faster than
18:55
Speaker 1: nineteen miles an hour and not run over the people
18:57
Speaker 1: on this side and this crosswalk? So Paul Zy with
19:01
Speaker 1: me former police commander Albuquerque star of their domestic violences
19:07
Speaker 1: stalking unit and order of stop him from killing them?
19:13
Speaker 1: You can find them at stop Him from Killing Them
19:15
Speaker 1: dot Com. Paul Zike, there's got to be a happy
19:18
Speaker 1: medium when you're in a chat ring, you know there
19:21
Speaker 1: there is. And the thing I have to disagree with
19:24
Speaker 1: Matthew is that you know, you have to realize what
19:28
Speaker 1: society is and who's out there. Yeah, I heard him
19:32
Speaker 1: say that, Paul Zie, you shouldn't be afraid of everybody
19:34
Speaker 1: to chat ram. Why not go ahead? I'm telling you
19:37
Speaker 1: right now that you know what's happened with the Internet
19:40
Speaker 1: and social media and you name it is connected everyone
19:43
Speaker 1: to everyone, and not everyone is of sound mind, not
19:47
Speaker 1: everyone you know, has even common sense. And in this case,
19:52
Speaker 1: the obsession, the unbelievable, relenting obsession in some of the
19:57
Speaker 1: statements that were made directly to the husband were extreme
20:02
Speaker 1: red flags and you got to be ready for that
20:04
Speaker 1: if you're going to put yourself out there. Time stories
20:19
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. I want to go to Lee Newbecker,
20:25
Speaker 1: President Enigma Forensics. Lee, as all of my co workers,
20:29
Speaker 1: friends and family know, the after one phone call. On
20:33
Speaker 1: the second call, I'm like, what did you not tell
20:35
Speaker 1: me the first time? What? Don't look at me like that, Jackie,
20:39
Speaker 1: Because by the second phone call, I'm like what because
20:41
Speaker 1: I assume there's but this woman's getting hundreds and hundreds
20:45
Speaker 1: a brage of calls and emails and texts every day. Amazing.
20:51
Speaker 1: Now I was looking for a little more from you,
20:53
Speaker 1: like how to not let that happen? Yeah, well, certainly,
20:57
Speaker 1: Like like I recommended all your staff they should be
21:00
Speaker 1: using buffer phone numbers when they're calling your prospective guests
21:05
Speaker 1: on the phone. Because oh, and you know what, I'm
21:06
Speaker 1: glad you said that buffer phone. There's actually an app
21:09
Speaker 1: is they're not leaning Backer, where you can keep your
21:12
Speaker 1: same phone. You don't have to run out and get
21:13
Speaker 1: a burner phone, but you can have another phone number
21:18
Speaker 1: on your phone and use that for people you don't
21:22
Speaker 1: want to have your phone number and your regular phone
21:25
Speaker 1: number for everybody else. Isn't that true? Yeah? Yeah, there's
21:28
Speaker 1: an app called Burner that's available on both the iPhone
21:32
Speaker 1: and the Android phone platform. That's the name of the
21:35
Speaker 1: app Burner, and it's a subscription of a year. But
21:39
Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll want to pay for that twenty dollars
21:42
Speaker 1: or so for the app for your steps, just to
21:44
Speaker 1: protect them because that number, when you look it up
21:47
Speaker 1: the Burner numbers, I can't find anything off the Burner phone.
21:50
Speaker 1: But once you use your real cell phone, then people
21:53
Speaker 1: can servail you. And you don't want people knowing who
21:56
Speaker 1: your kids are. And I mean, Nancy, you're a high
22:00
Speaker 1: a file person. If someone wants to stop you, they're
22:02
Speaker 1: going to stop your family. You know, your family has
22:05
Speaker 1: to be careful too with their online footprint using pseudo
22:09
Speaker 1: names for Facebook. You know, if you're going to use
22:13
Speaker 1: your real cell phone number on Facebook, just know that
22:15
Speaker 1: if anyone gets a number, they can quickly they can
22:18
Speaker 1: see more data about you because Facebook assumes that they're
22:22
Speaker 1: trusted if they have your phone number in their contact let. Yeah,
22:25
Speaker 1: and that's what Isabel Vincent was just telling us. Author
22:28
Speaker 1: an investigative reporter in New York Posts that's actually finds
22:30
Speaker 1: people when they don't want to be found. How she
22:32
Speaker 1: finds out about them. Doctor Jeffrey Jenson and joining me.
22:36
Speaker 1: Professor Forensic Pathology, Director of Autopsy and Forensic Services, University
22:40
Speaker 1: of Michigan Medical School and medical former medical examiner, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin.
22:46
Speaker 1: Doctor jess Let's bring it all home. We're talking about
22:49
Speaker 1: meeting people in chat rooms and hiding your phone numbers.
22:52
Speaker 1: How did these two victims die? Well, it sounds like
22:56
Speaker 1: it was a gunshot. Wounds that were that were inflicted.
23:04
Speaker 1: Even it sounds like the the the husband was seen
23:10
Speaker 1: in front of the house. And I guess my question
23:12
Speaker 1: is is where is law enforcement during this period of
23:15
Speaker 1: time where this poor woman's being stalked? I can answer that,
23:20
Speaker 1: Doctor Jeffrey Jenson. Romaming to circle back to Jensen on
23:24
Speaker 1: the cod cause of death and what they endured. Let's
23:27
Speaker 1: answer doctor Jeffrey Jensen's very astute question. Take a listen
23:32
Speaker 1: now to Kanya Whitworth, GMA. Police say that Romine could
23:38
Speaker 1: a ram Razahi met Zori Sadegi under false pretenses on
23:42
Speaker 1: the popular streaming for him Clubhouse. Sadegi initially befriending the
23:47
Speaker 1: suspect thinking he was looking for a tech job, even
23:50
Speaker 1: meeting him in person, but eventually he became fixated. His
23:54
Speaker 1: actions and activity escalated such that the victim became concerned
23:59
Speaker 1: for her safety numerous times throughout twenty twenty two. By
24:03
Speaker 1: December she reported him to police, and earlier this month
24:06
Speaker 1: she applied for a protection order. Oh my goodness, thanking
24:10
Speaker 1: she was helping him pursue a tech job. They mate
24:14
Speaker 1: in this chat ram on Clubhouse. She actually met him
24:18
Speaker 1: for lunch to launch her coffee to talk to him
24:23
Speaker 1: at his request about finding a job in the tech world.
24:29
Speaker 1: Now take a listen to our friends at k I
24:31
Speaker 1: R seven. The suspect had been stalking Zoe Rae for
24:34
Speaker 1: more than a year, so as I understand it. In
24:37
Speaker 1: one of the reports, she reported over one hundred contacts
24:41
Speaker 1: in a single day. Zoe Ray is a software engineer
24:44
Speaker 1: who ran a live podcast style chat account on the
24:46
Speaker 1: platform Clubhouse. Police say that's where the suspect, who is
24:50
Speaker 1: from Texas, met her and developed into a stalking situation
24:54
Speaker 1: that rapidly escalated. The couple got a protection order against
24:57
Speaker 1: the suspect, thirty eight year old Ramine To karam Rosari.
25:01
Speaker 1: Court documents show pages and pages of instances of the
25:04
Speaker 1: suspect contacting Zore and her family and friends, even coming
25:08
Speaker 1: to their home there were instances where the individual did
25:12
Speaker 1: show up at the location previously bearing gifts. How far
25:17
Speaker 1: did he have to travel to Isabel Vincent INVSTI get
25:20
Speaker 1: a reporter New York Post and author How far did
25:23
Speaker 1: he have to travel to get to her? Well, he
25:25
Speaker 1: was living in Houston and so so quite far. And
25:33
Speaker 1: one of the things that hasn't been mentioned is that
25:35
Speaker 1: that order of protection was not served on him because
25:39
Speaker 1: the police said that, well, he's a trumper. It's hard
25:42
Speaker 1: to pin him down. So that was one of the
25:46
Speaker 1: problems in this case. And when you are you get
25:49
Speaker 1: a protective order PO TPO in one state. Here they
25:55
Speaker 1: are in Redmond and he is in Texas. You have
26:01
Speaker 1: to get cooperation of Texas authorities or wherever the suspect
26:06
Speaker 1: is living. And for them, unless they know any better,
26:09
Speaker 1: it's not a priority Lee and it's total be us.
26:13
Speaker 1: They can't find a trucker, they all have all come trackers.
26:16
Speaker 1: All law enforcement he has to do is go to
26:18
Speaker 1: their employer and seeing where the imperiod exactly. It's just
26:22
Speaker 1: that simple. But from state to state, for instance, a
26:25
Speaker 1: Redman needed to communicate to Houston how important this was,
26:30
Speaker 1: and then they needed help because hey, look, cobs are
26:33
Speaker 1: trying to track down murderers and rapists and child moles
26:37
Speaker 1: molesters and armed robberies, and they get to notice, how
26:40
Speaker 1: here's a TPO find the guy and serve him. That's
26:43
Speaker 1: like way out on the list, who's jumping in go ahead?
26:49
Speaker 1: One thing? Also his background, I mean I get a
26:51
Speaker 1: quick background track to him and his former way a
26:57
Speaker 1: woman named Neda misbahi Um. She stued him for divorce
27:03
Speaker 1: in January twenty eighteen. There were children in I wonder why,
27:07
Speaker 1: and there were allegations of domestic abuse. So here's like
27:12
Speaker 1: a profile that you know, maybe the police didn't take seriously.
27:15
Speaker 1: I don't know. Hey, Karen Starr, you know who this
27:18
Speaker 1: is reminding me of. I know you're going to remember
27:21
Speaker 1: this woman Lisa no Act, the astronaut, the female astronaut.
27:26
Speaker 1: So she has an affair with her love object who
27:31
Speaker 1: actually had later gets a girlfriend. She travels all the
27:36
Speaker 1: way across the country wearing adult diapers so she doesn't
27:41
Speaker 1: have to slow down. Her name is foreverlink with adult diapers,
27:44
Speaker 1: so she can't attack the girlfriend like her love I'm
27:49
Speaker 1: just gonna go, oh, well she's dead now I'll be
27:51
Speaker 1: with you it didn't work out that way at all.
27:54
Speaker 1: But someone so obsessed they're willing to drive thousands of
27:57
Speaker 1: miles to get to you. Go hey, Karen start Well,
28:00
Speaker 1: it's not logical, manthing, because they're not thinking sanely the
28:04
Speaker 1: way that they would be. They're actually believing that there's
28:07
Speaker 1: more happening, that there's more closeness and intimacy than actually exists.
28:12
Speaker 1: And unfortunately in this case, no one took it seriously enough.
28:18
Speaker 1: Well wait a minute, they did go to court to
28:21
Speaker 1: get that protection order, and that takes them doing Yet
28:25
Speaker 1: then it wasn't delivered. Guys. Listen to dd Son, the
28:30
Speaker 1: victim shares her fears, saying messages to me have been
28:34
Speaker 1: the cause of anxiety and insomnia for me. They include
28:36
Speaker 1: him crying and begging for me to pick up him,
28:39
Speaker 1: threatening to burn himself, and the tree in front of
28:41
Speaker 1: my house. She also says, mister Koto Karamasari has bursts
28:44
Speaker 1: of anger and is completely delusional. These illusions make me
28:48
Speaker 1: fear for my life and the lives of my loved ones,
28:50
Speaker 1: and there's more. Listen to Gma the order, detailing a
28:54
Speaker 1: pattern of disturbing behavior, including calling Sadegi a hundred times
28:59
Speaker 1: in a single day, crying and begging to speak to her,
29:02
Speaker 1: showing up unannounced at a convention she attended in Colorado,
29:06
Speaker 1: even threatening to burn himself and the tree in front
29:10
Speaker 1: of Sadegi's house. The software developer calling the alleged stoker delusional,
29:14
Speaker 1: writing he won't let me go, and the only thing
29:17
Speaker 1: that will make all of this stop is if he
29:19
Speaker 1: killed himself or died. Now on our friend, Frank Thompson
29:25
Speaker 1: describes voicemails left, even hiring a jazz band to play
29:32
Speaker 1: outside the victims home. Listen. The petition for a protection
29:38
Speaker 1: order filed on March third, says Romine would leave the
29:41
Speaker 1: woman voicemails more than ten times a week, sending gifts
29:44
Speaker 1: and flowers to her home, even saying he hired a
29:48
Speaker 1: jazz band to play outside her house for two hours
29:50
Speaker 1: but then called it off. The documents said the suspect
29:53
Speaker 1: would also leave her husband twenty messages a day. He
29:56
Speaker 1: even found her friend's addresses and phone numbers without their permission.
30:00
Speaker 1: You know what, everybody on this panel is correct. This
30:03
Speaker 1: was of the highest priority, but according to authorities, they
30:07
Speaker 1: couldn't quote pin him down. Take a listen to Fox
30:10
Speaker 1: thirteen Chief Low says, it was challenging serving the order
30:13
Speaker 1: to Romine because he was a long haul truck driver,
30:16
Speaker 1: always traveling the country for work. It was difficult to
30:20
Speaker 1: i'll say, pin him down to a location. It wasn't
30:22
Speaker 1: as though he was local and we had a local
30:25
Speaker 1: address to where we could either do surveillance or find him,
30:28
Speaker 1: serve the protective order, et cetera. He was in a
30:30
Speaker 1: different state, traveled across the country as part of his employment,
30:34
Speaker 1: so that was the biggest challenge. Prime Stories with Nancy
30:51
Speaker 1: Grace chief Low says, it was challenging serving the order
30:59
Speaker 1: to who I mean, because he was a long haul
31:01
Speaker 1: truck driver, always traveling the country for work. It was
31:05
Speaker 1: difficult to i'll say, paying him down to a location.
31:08
Speaker 1: It wasn't as though he was local and we had
31:10
Speaker 1: a local address to where we could either do surveillance
31:14
Speaker 1: or find him, serve the etc. He was in a
31:16
Speaker 1: different state, traveled across the country as part of his employment,
31:20
Speaker 1: so that was the biggest challenge. I believe our someone
31:24
Speaker 1: say bass which I agree, was that, Yeah, this is
31:27
Speaker 1: Lee Newt from Forensics and I want to comment on something.
31:30
Speaker 1: We live in one of the most surveiled environments better.
31:33
Speaker 1: You boot your laptop to take the picture of your face.
31:37
Speaker 1: It does better facial recognition. There's the ability out there,
31:41
Speaker 1: the n and stay could find it. Why aren't we
31:44
Speaker 1: using the means here? If we're going to be surveiled,
31:47
Speaker 1: let's at least stop the crying. Is this Paul or Matthew?
31:50
Speaker 1: It's Faul, go ahead. So this is why I wrote
31:52
Speaker 1: the book. You know, law enforcement is reactionary at its
31:56
Speaker 1: very core. You call, we come, we fixed, we leave.
31:59
Speaker 1: The reality is stalking offenders. They fit into a category
32:05
Speaker 1: of very violent individuals that we don't understand. One this
32:10
Speaker 1: happened over a full year. Two it started consensually. Three
32:15
Speaker 1: it started to ratchet into an area of obsession, focused
32:20
Speaker 1: aggression and threats to kill. Now, you threatened to kill
32:23
Speaker 1: himself first, and so that's the only way it would stop.
32:26
Speaker 1: When you start hearing threats to kill. And it's in
32:29
Speaker 1: and around stalking cases. There's been many studies that say
32:32
Speaker 1: ninety percent of the time when a woman is murdered,
32:35
Speaker 1: it's the man who's stalking her. And I wrote the
32:37
Speaker 1: book to help cops, prosecutors, judges and everyone understand these
32:42
Speaker 1: people mean what they say. Doctor Jeffrey Jenson with me
32:47
Speaker 1: autopsy and forensic expert, Doctor Jensen, I know that you
32:53
Speaker 1: have conducted many, many thousands of autopsies, and typically homicide
32:59
Speaker 1: victims are women, minorities, and children. Many of the women,
33:07
Speaker 1: I would say, the vast majority of women are killed
33:10
Speaker 1: by someone already in their lives. It's not like an
33:13
Speaker 1: attack or ambushes them on the sidewalk. Yes, that does happen.
33:18
Speaker 1: The typical domestic killing is the person close to the individual.
33:26
Speaker 1: Many times there's um what I would describe as overkill,
33:30
Speaker 1: some demonstration of you know, facial and head trauma that
33:35
Speaker 1: the individuals are actually trying to trying to destroy the image.
33:40
Speaker 1: I guess that being said, what kind and with all
33:44
Speaker 1: the threats, what kind of of actions did this family
33:49
Speaker 1: take to protect themselves? Well, another great question by doctor
33:53
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Jensen. Take listen, I are cut ten. The police
33:56
Speaker 1: chief says they were trying to track down the suspect
33:59
Speaker 1: to serve ast warrant and that protection order. Today, this
34:02
Speaker 1: vehicle was towed from the neighborhood. Police believe it's what
34:05
Speaker 1: the suspect was driving. Last this is the absolute worst outcome.
34:10
Speaker 1: The suspect was a trucker, and police say that made
34:12
Speaker 1: it difficult to pinpoint his location. The chief says the
34:16
Speaker 1: detectives had been working with the couple to tighten security
34:18
Speaker 1: at this home, like doing things like adding cameras, and
34:21
Speaker 1: say that they did everything right, trying to protect themselves
34:25
Speaker 1: and more from Cairo. Listen, that suspect, we are told,
34:28
Speaker 1: broken to the couple's home through a bedroom window. You
34:31
Speaker 1: can see this is still a very active scene crime
34:33
Speaker 1: scene tape as well as police still here. That is
34:35
Speaker 1: the home we were talking about. I'm told the victim's
34:37
Speaker 1: mom managed to escape to a neighbor's house to call
34:39
Speaker 1: nine one one, but police believe the couple was shot
34:42
Speaker 1: by that suspect. This is victim every detective, every police
34:47
Speaker 1: chief's worst nightmare. The murder victims are Redman residents, thirty
34:51
Speaker 1: three year old Zobra Sadeghi and her husband, thirty five
34:54
Speaker 1: year old Mohammed Mulada Nasari. It's shocking. It just seems unrea,
34:58
Speaker 1: that's something like this good happening in our neighbor. Matthew
35:02
Speaker 1: Mangino with me for more. Felony prosecutor now author, Matthew Mangino.
35:07
Speaker 1: It seems to me the couple did everything right. Well,
35:12
Speaker 1: they did what they needed to do, and that was
35:14
Speaker 1: to seek a protective order. But you know, Nancy, there's
35:19
Speaker 1: nothing magical about a protective order. You know, certainly it
35:23
Speaker 1: gives the authorities some leverage if this suspect would come
35:28
Speaker 1: around their home. But if you're if you're a crazed,
35:31
Speaker 1: obsessed individual, you're going to defy that protective order, whether
35:37
Speaker 1: you know it's there or you don't. And I'm really
35:40
Speaker 1: concerned that was there enough done in terms of law
35:43
Speaker 1: enforcement getting an arrest warrant, getting that warned out where
35:49
Speaker 1: authorities in other states, whether it's Texas where he resided,
35:53
Speaker 1: or other places, are looking for him as someone who's
35:57
Speaker 1: been charged with the crime. Active orders a civil order,
36:03
Speaker 1: certainly it's a great concern, but it doesn't have the
36:06
Speaker 1: same effect necessarily on law enforcement as an active warrant
36:10
Speaker 1: for somebody's arrest. Well, I'm curious why he wasn't charged
36:14
Speaker 1: with stalking, the felony of stalking. Isabel Vincent joining me
36:19
Speaker 1: from the New York Post and you can read her book,
36:22
Speaker 1: Overture of Hope. Isabel. I'm curious why he wasn't charged
36:28
Speaker 1: with the felony of stalking with a grand jury. That
36:31
Speaker 1: takes about literally five minutes, and then there would have
36:35
Speaker 1: been a warrant for his arrest. And we know what
36:37
Speaker 1: vehicle is driving. You know, I can't answer that, but
36:40
Speaker 1: you know, if you read her, you know, if you
36:42
Speaker 1: read some of the things today he said. And again
36:45
Speaker 1: I stress that she's much more of a vulnerable victim
36:49
Speaker 1: here because she's recovering from back surgery. She can barely move.
36:53
Speaker 1: And she says at one point, I haven't been able
36:56
Speaker 1: to open the curtains in my bedroom out of fear
36:59
Speaker 1: of him being side watching me. I mean, how much
37:02
Speaker 1: more do you need than not, um, you know, for
37:04
Speaker 1: the for the police to take more action. We should
37:09
Speaker 1: have been paying that phone, Nancy, and knowing where he
37:12
Speaker 1: is from the pings on his cell phone. In addition
37:15
Speaker 1: to that, something you see systemically throughout the nation, we're
37:19
Speaker 1: not doing surveillance like we need to be. If you're
37:21
Speaker 1: not in front of that house, is that red truck
37:23
Speaker 1: pulls up to do what he's going to do, You're
37:26
Speaker 1: you're out of the game. And surveillance on the home
37:31
Speaker 1: would certainly have had the best opportunity to stop this individual,
37:35
Speaker 1: and the ping would give you an idea when he
37:37
Speaker 1: was starting to close distance, we didn't do it. You know,
37:40
Speaker 1: I read that quote he threatened to end her marriage,
37:45
Speaker 1: isabel Vincent. I assume that is to suspect threatened to
37:50
Speaker 1: end the victim's marriage. Yes, and he actually he said
37:55
Speaker 1: to her, you know, I'm you know, i am My
37:58
Speaker 1: other marriage ended because of domestic abuse. I'm a violent person,
38:03
Speaker 1: like he told her all of these things. U And
38:07
Speaker 1: you know again, where was the where was the alarm
38:12
Speaker 1: on the part of the authorities. And maybe one one
38:15
Speaker 1: of the other things they could have done is hired
38:17
Speaker 1: private security. I don't know, I'm just putting it out there,
38:20
Speaker 1: Doctor Jeffrey Jenson. What did these victims experience as they died.
38:26
Speaker 1: You've heard Isabelle describing uh, the female victim, Zori's back surgery,
38:34
Speaker 1: she could totally even move when she was murdered. Well,
38:37
Speaker 1: I would imagine there was just a feeling of total
38:40
Speaker 1: um surrender, panic and just a impending horror of their
38:47
Speaker 1: impending deaths and um, you know, without personal protection or
38:54
Speaker 1: some other knowledge that there was help on the way,
38:58
Speaker 1: they would have just had a total feeling of loss
39:04
Speaker 1: and the inability to protect themselves. The thought that this
39:08
Speaker 1: could have been stopped if a formal stalking felony had
39:14
Speaker 1: been lodged against him, and then he would have been
39:16
Speaker 1: out on a warrant, not a TPO temporary protective order
39:22
Speaker 1: could have, would have should have. There's nothing we can
39:25
Speaker 1: do now. The victims are dead. He's dead, took his
39:30
Speaker 1: own life, so there will be no justice. All we
39:34
Speaker 1: can do is think about how we can protect other
39:38
Speaker 1: people from this happening to them. Nancy Grace Kind story
39:44
Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye, f