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Needed or Wanted?: Conversation · Beyond the Sermon

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You're listening to Beyond the Sermon, the podcast of First
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Methodist Church in Collingswood, NJ.
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On our podcast, the goal is not just to share our sermons, but
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to go beyond the sermon and talk about what we're learning and
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what God is doing in us and in our community.
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This fall, we're living in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke,
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and John and learning how to live from our model, Jesus.
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This conversation was inspired by our series The Gospels.
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You can find more information about our church at
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fumccollingswood.org. Thanks for joining us for this
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conversation. So, Scott, you left us high and
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dry for almost a week. Was it worth it?
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Going to Kentucky? Yeah, absolutely.
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Top three things I'm not going to be personal, learning time
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with God, whatever aspects of it.
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I was really glad to have this in person opportunity as kind of
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the close out part of this cohort with these other pastors
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and to get the time face to face with most of them.
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Not all of them were able to make it, but you know, after
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journeying together over these last 9 or 10 months to end
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together felt really right and important.
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So that'd be 1. Part of that was on Thursday
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when we were wrapping up. The last thing was just kind of
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some time in our smaller cohort. There were 4 cohorts all
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together. So time in just our 15 or so
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people at least took time to share kind of where we're at and
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where what we're kind of looking to now that this cohort is over.
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And then we just took time to pray for people, like after they
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shared, we'd take some time to pray for them and all kinds of
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different things were praying. It wasn't like, it's like, all
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right, this one thing for everybody, but some people are
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facing medical challenges, other people who were not sure about
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some aspect of their ministry or one guy's totally changing
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ministries. Like when we started the cohort,
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he was pastoring a local church. And then just last week, he
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moved from Oregon to Illinois to become the pastor, the campus
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chaplain for Olivet University. Wow.
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Yeah. And so being able to pray for
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him and kind of for Commission him into that new ministry.
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And that was a really sweet time.
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And then personally, it's just it was good to see my my sister
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and her family and get a few days with them, even though I
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was in and out a lot, you know, the most of the time that I was
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there. Know it well.
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Yeah, know it. So those those would be my three
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things. So was it hosted at Asbury or
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was it just near? No, most of our time we spent at
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a venue connected to the lead pastors for a house church
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movement, Austin and Maddie Wofford, if you've seen them at
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New Room before. What town?
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In Lexington, OK, yeah, they they lead Arise Church.
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But we did spend the afternoon on Wednesday in Hughes
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Auditorium. And some of the people who had
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been there during the outpouring, even some of the
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people in our cohort who had been students there.
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And we're now there as like worship leaders and our cohort,
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they were sharing some stories and talking about things they
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learned during that time. And it was a sweet time.
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And it was sweet for me to get back into Hughes Auditorium,
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where I spent so much time as a student while as at Asbury.
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Literally. Yeah.
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June will be the 20th anniversary of our graduation.
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Thanks for that. You're welcome.
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But to just to, to be there in Hughes in a place where God has
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spoken to me. And this is a sweet time.
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And to so many, for those that may not know specifically,
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Hughes is the auditorium in which the Asbury Outpouring was
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held and all them the worship and where it started and.
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Yeah, and also where Asbury has very Chapel services three days
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a week, you know. But they do have, I don't know
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if it's the same at the university as it is at the
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seminary, but they have like, I think a Chapel and a prayer room
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in like every building, which is really cool that like literally
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at any point, like, oh, let me find a little space, little holy
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space to be with Jesus. But yeah, I got to go to Hughes
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as well. I didn't realize how close it
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was to where I was taking my classes, like right across the
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road. So yeah.
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Yeah. Well, just like the university
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is much bigger than the seminary.
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So I was like, I don't know where in that mess is the
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auditorium. And so got to go over and there
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was someone just practicing the organ.
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And so I just got like sit there and have the whole space and
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that was really good. Holy time and a good break from
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my classes and just all of the history, even prior to the
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outpouring of just, you know, hear you hearing from God there
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and just knowing the type of people that Asbury attracts.
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And so the amount of people that had encountered God in such a
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holy way in that space. Yeah.
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It's just really, really, it almost seems like Hughes is like
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a launchpad and the into the world.
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Yeah, yeah, because the 2023 out where it wasn't the first time
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something like that happened 19 fourth.
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Yeah, at least 1970 was a big revival that started there in
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Hughes and spread out across the whole country and.
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I think there's on maybe like the 40s that have to.
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Double, yeah, yeah, it's something maybe even earlier
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than that, though. I think 1915 comes to my mind.
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OK, but they talk about it sometimes.
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It's like a deep well and when the water starts flowing it
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knows where to go at Asbury. There's there's just some
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special places that when you step in, it's not because of the
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place, but what God's done in there.
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And yeah, and the really awesome.
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And I'm glad you got to go see your sister, which is nice.
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And this week, tell us about your sermon prep this week.
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What did that look like? My sermon prep this week looked
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like reading through the passage there in Luke on Tuesday and
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then going for a hike. Just kind of letting it, letting
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it sit, letting it linger a little bit and then looked over,
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looked over some notes from a talk I'd heard somebody else
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give on one of the other versions.
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Then in John's Gospel specifically, and realized it
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wasn't really where I was going with this one.
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Although there are some elements that I, I did bring in.
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And then just kind of let that stuff sit on the back burner
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simmering while I was with my cohort Tuesday night and
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Wednesday and Thursday and driving back from Kentucky
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Thursday night and then on Saturday sat down and wrote my
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whole service. That's that's how my sermon
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prepped looked this week. Yeah, because I remember Friday
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night at that Tim's football game, we're like, so you're
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preaching on Sunday. I was like, what?
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Like I'm set for the 2nd and then I could tell why.
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But no, I, I something this year, maybe even like leading
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into summer, it just seems like the preachings been consistently
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at a level that it hadn't been prior.
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And I think there's a lot of factors that go into that.
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But I'm wondering if you've sensed that at all this year,
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specifically compared to the rest of like your career?
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Yeah, no, I do think that's true.
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I was even remarking to someone this morning, they were saying
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something about the sermon and the feel in the room as I was
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preaching. And it almost sensed, it almost
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seemed at certain points that there is like a hush in the room
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and people are just kind of like leaning forward a little bit,
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not quite edge of their seats, but but a little bit leaning.
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They were, they're paying attention.
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They were engaging. They were listening in a way
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that made it clear to me that they weren't just listening to
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my words, you know, And that was that was a beautiful thing to
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see. But yeah, I, I, I definitely
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think I have noticed a difference over these last
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months. And I don't know that I could
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quite put a finger on when it start.
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It wasn't like I could say like, oh, at the start of this gospel
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series or before our, you know, at the start of the summer
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series on doing life together. I don't even remember what was
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before that. Was it Habakkuk?
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Yes. Yeah.
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Yeah. And then before Habakkuk was a
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little bit of everything, right? It was kind of like.
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Yes, when I when I let you break me out of these sermon series.
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Yeah, I think. Yeah, I totally blame you for.
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That memory serves me correctly. I think in the one offs there
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were ones that we're starting to really stand out.
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And then as we got into Habakkuk and the summer series, it just
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felt more consistent. It wasn't like, oh, that was a
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really solid 1. And then like kind of goes back
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like they were just like becoming more and more
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consistent. Yeah.
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If I had to point somewhere, I think I might point back to when
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we did that Altars of Awakening series.
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That's kind of like right before Lent.
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And I don't know that I'd say that Lent felt the same way, but
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there is something that shifted a bit there.
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And I think, I think there's a couple things that feed into it
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and I want to talk about these things without putting myself at
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the center or sounding like I'm Tooting my own horn.
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Toot away, Sarah. But just to kind of help people
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and see where, you know, I think things that have kind of streams
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that have fed into this larger stream.
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One, I think our prayer sessions on Tuesday and Thursday, Tuesday
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nights and Thursday mornings have been part of shifting our
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church. And I, even though it's not
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like, you know, everyone in the congregation is coming out for
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those or whatever. But the, the intentional choice
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to center prayer in that way, even if it hasn't had an impact,
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you know, people in the congregation might not say,
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well, I felt the impact of that. I have felt the impact of that
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and it has shifted some things for me and in me.
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And even even going beyond that further back when we did the
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series back in January, February of 24 when we talked about
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prayer and fasting. You know, I, I shifted in that
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season to trying to make that discipline of fasting a much
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more regular part of my life, which I've tried to do at
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different points in the past and usually stuck with it for a
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little while and then not. But since that January 24, it's
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been a much more consistent part of my life.
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And it's brought me into more intimacy with God, more openness
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to his voice. And I think that has had an
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impact on how I'm hearing from him.
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And then so then the messages that are on my heart are that
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much more coming from Him. And so I think those are two
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things that have kind of contributed to it.
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Anything you've seen that kind of you think might be a factor
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into? I literally those were the first
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two things to come to mind, the prayer sessions.
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And I know you've been more regular with your fasting on
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Tuesdays and I've seen those things.
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I don't want to say keep you centered because it makes it
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seem like you were all over the place prior to, but almost like
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a honing in where it's like, I don't know, terminologies for
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like shooting like arrows and the stuff where it's like, you
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know how there's like the bullseye bullseye and then
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there's like the secondary bullseye.
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So all bullseye. Like I feel like you were in the
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outer 1 And so still great shot better than most people, but
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like it just seems like it's just been honing in more and
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more with your regular connectedness to God and like
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openness to what the Spirit is leading.
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And again, yeah, I think that's the the better imagery because
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you were there before, but it just seems more more honed in.
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Yeah. And then the word that God gave
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me for this year was forged, which I feel like has been
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really true in this season. And this has not been an easy
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year for me. You know, there's everything
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that's going on with the lawsuit.
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That's that's one thing. And then, you know, we entered
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this year with Josiah's diagnosis fresh, you know, the
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week of Christmas. And so this whole year has been
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learning and adjusting and adapting to those new rhythms,
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as well as seeing some some more marked decline in Meg's
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condition. And and so all those things
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could be things that if I allowed them to, would kind of
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beat me down or beat me up or could even, you know, just lead
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me into a very dark place. But with that idea, that kind of
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word over this year of of being forged, I've tried as often as
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possible to let those things drive me to Jesus and let them
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be the the anvil that he's using to hammer out the the rough
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places and shape me more into the person that that he wants me
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to be. Yeah.
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And it's it's coming across and in the sermons and I've it's
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from great to witness that when people think like preaching and
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all that, it's a lot of like public speaking and becoming a
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better public speaker. And I wouldn't say that you've
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necessarily grown exponentially in your public speaking skills,
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but to see how the spirit is leading you and speaking through
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you, that's what's becoming, I think more evident as of recent.
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Because if you look go back like stylistically a year ago, still
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very similar formats and cadence and you know, your pacing and
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all of that kind of stuff, but there's just a, a different
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tone, like you said, even in the space.
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And it's not that like, you know, part of that could be
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contributed by the combining of the services.
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And so that shifts the culture and the, and the feeling within
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the room. But I don't think that's, I
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don't think that's the big tangible thing in regards to
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your sermons that people are recognizing.
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And they better stop getting used to it because I'm preaching
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this week. In regards specifically to this
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week's sermon, I have a couple questions.
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As you went through your five points, one of the things I
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thought was great in the .1 of I know it's not the specific
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wording, but what I took out of it was the ability to discern
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action based on circumstances. And I added, not prescriptive
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action, which I think is so important with the jar of
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perfume, right? Why?
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Simon was thinking to himself, like, what a waste and, you
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know, all that kind of stuff. And it's OK.
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It's not every time someone sees Jesus.
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We need to be dumping perfume on his feet.
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And I think sometimes you'll be like, oh, well, it was good in
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this circumstance. So this is now what all of us
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should do forever and always. And we need to go buy a lot of
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Tom Ford clones and break the bottles and put them on Scott's
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feet. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it.
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I really hate when people touch my feet.
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Well, you know he can just pour it on top of.
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Just saying, yeah. He'd prefer tobacco, vanilla if
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you're going to pick a Tom Ford fragrance to spill on his feet.
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Sure, we'll do that. But this, the sermon also
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brought us back to a question that we had at a staff meeting
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recently that you and I, I know, took time to really chew on.
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I don't even know if we fully came to conclusions, but what is
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most valuable to you? And so I wanted us to wrestle a
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little bit more with that. And I'll give context of my
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answer last time and how I've continued to chew on it as
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people were saying families and for me value it's it's I go try
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and go the levels deeper than that is do I value the comfort
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that my family brings me or do I value feeling like you were
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saying feeling wanted or needed by the animals, right.
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And as I've been studying in my teaching, youth and adults, they
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were talking about trying to relate to seniors, senior
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citizens, empathizing with how quickly the elderly and the even
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within the phrasing and their decline, the changes and things
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they experience and the stuff that they really try to hold on
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to and what they value most. Like value the freedom to drive
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because we've been driving and had freedom to do that.
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The freedom to keep the space that you've lived in for 50
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years and not have to go to another place for a certain care
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that you may need. The freedom to whatever it may
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be, not have to check your sugar regularly or watch your sugars
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and that kind of stuff. And so like there's things that
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when we get to those later years when we have to really face that
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maybe a little more regularly or in big ways where it's like, oh,
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love my family, families number one.
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But then at that age. They were like, well, you need
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to move in with families. Like I'm not moving in with the
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family. It's like, is family really
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number #1 or is there something else that we're holding on to
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that we value a little bit more? And so curious if there's
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anything since our time at staff meeting that maybe has come to
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mind that you recognize as one of your higher values in life.
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Free ice cream does not count. Although surgery on Friday,
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anyone who wants to drop off ice cream for my recovery, feel
20:38
free. Everyone wants to add more
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weight for your new knee to bear.
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Yes, I'm not getting a new knee. It's not a replacement.
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Gosh. Anyway, in the context of of
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this conversation, the the one that's coming, the one that's
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coming up in my heart is my reputation.
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So funny my reputation. So I talked about a youth group
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last night. Is it?
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Pull up the slides later. Yeah.
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How so? How?
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Sister. Yeah, yeah.
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Well, I think one of the things that I've been just like real,
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real time, real time going on. I think one of the things I've
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been realizing over the last few months, and it came out a little
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bit in the in the sermon yesterday, was the idea of
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laying down my reputation and what other people think of me
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for the sake of being faithful to Jesus and all that he's
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asking me to do or say or be. And letting him be the one that
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defends me. And not not making decisions
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based on trying to preserve my own reputation, but making my
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decisions based on faithfulness to Jesus and entrusting him with
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whatever the outcome of that is. I think that's bled into my
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preaching over the last few months in the best of ways.
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I say, how could your reputation get worse?
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There's a lot of ways. There's a lot of ways, trust me.
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Yeah. That we we talked last night
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about reputation. We went to the story of the
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demon possessed man Legion and Chapter 9 Luke Gator knife one
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of those. Gator 9.
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I know it best from Mark 5. But no, you're fine.
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And we, and we touched back on that because it expands a little
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bit more about like the crazy things he was doing.
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And so we were going into, and it's like, you know, when you
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hear the story, it's usually focused on the removal of the
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demons. And I actually ended up cutting
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out and summarizing that chunk of the story, but looking at the
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specifics of how he was viewed, what he was known for, and then
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how people had to recognize the change afterward.
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How he sat at Jesus's feet and was studied under him.
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And then how he went out and shared what Jesus had done in
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his life and talking about how like, what do our A, what do
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people think of us? What's our reputation, maybe in
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different circles or whatever? And does that affect how we view
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ourselves also when we're walking with Jesus, how are we
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to move forward confidently and who he's created us be what he's
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calling us to do without fear of what others are thinking or have
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thought about us, And just to be able to share the good things
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that Jesus has done in our lives.
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And I was really, really good. And I got to share a little bit
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about my previous reputations and also how the thing that
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could have negative connotations pre Jesus, some of those same
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things could be used for good layers.
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So my example was in college, I was known as the distractor and.
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I can see that, Yep. No one wanted to study with the
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distractor for whatever reasons. But when people had any issues
24:31
with school or relationships or life or whatever, they'd call me
24:35
up. We'd spend a day together and we
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would just get away from all of that mess and just give them
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something else to focus on. And so that's what I was known
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for, and it was helpful and good, but without Jesus.
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And it's not that I wasn't a believer at that point, I would
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argue I wasn't a believer. We.
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Have that conversation another time that I was distracting from
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the world, but then not pointing them to Jesus and giving them
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hope and purpose and and good direction.
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And so now as I've been in ministry for, I was like I think
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six years and then the kids were like 6. 7.
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And I was like, well, at least I know when my career ended
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because I'm about to quit, was saying how like been able to see
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God use that where I can help people kind of take a step back
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from all of those issues and then put them on to the right
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path towards Jesus, not just towards my feelings and emotions
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and what I think they should do and get them back into Scripture
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and have that lead and guide them.
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And yeah, so it's been great to see and have witness God use it
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for so much greater than I could have ever anticipated.
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And so using some things that were even even worldly kind of
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good at the time, but really bring it to a place that draws
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people to God. And when I am having deeper
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conversations with people outside of the church, sometimes
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they come to me for advice. There's usually like a a glass
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ceiling where it's like, OK, this is all the worldly advice I
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can give you. If you want to get past this.
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We got to bring God into the equation because otherwise
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you're just stuck and refrain from other terminology.
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But yeah, so that's that's been an interesting thing.
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And, and I think I'll definitely be throwing this podcast at some
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of our youth because I think some of them in various degrees
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and areas of their life are wrestling with stuff similar to
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you in regards to reputation, holding them back maybe from
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doing what they know they should.
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And so that they don't think that it's like, oh, well, I must
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be a bad Christian if I'm not 100% gung ho, no hold bars kind
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of stuff because it's a hard place to fully get to.
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And usually when you think you're there, that means you're
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probably not there. Right, right.
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Yeah. It's a lifelong and.
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Let me just say along those lines, like no part of me is, is
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trying to say that if this is where you're struggling and this
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is what you're hoping Jesus will do, you need to start fasting
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once a week and coming to prayer sessions twice a week.
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That might be what Jesus asks you to do.
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That might be where he invites you to go deeper, but it might
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be something else. It might be that you need to
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focus on solitude or your Scripture reading or giving or
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serving or witness. Like there's so many other
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spiritual disciplines that God uses to form us and shape us.
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Those are just the two that I've felt in the last year or so that
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have, you know, taken me to a different place.
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Yeah, he's always inviting you to go deeper.
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And in each season, it might look slightly different.
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And the one that he just Scott just lifted off listed off a
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handful. The one that you feel most
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hesitant towards might be 1 worth looking into and taking a
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little bit more seriously because it's like, Oh well, I
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can definitely handle this one. That other one.
28:28
Maybe in a decade we'll get to that.
28:31
But take they should all be taken seriously into
28:34
consideration for each and every one of us since we don't have
28:40
well, did Jesus smell like a girl he talked about.
28:46
That segue. Her walking away with the smell
28:51
and we don't know how long it's lasted because it was so much
28:55
strong, rare perfume. So it's, you know, it would have
28:59
good projection and lasting power.
29:03
But it's the same smell on the girl's hair.
29:04
It would have been on Jesus's feet.
29:06
Did he just have like rose and lavender feet for like a week?
29:11
Yeah, I have no idea what it smelled like, nor do I know if
29:14
the 1st century Jewish culture had the same definitions of
29:20
femininity and masculinity that we do today.
29:25
Then. Then I just thought, wow, Jesus
29:28
smells good. He doesn't smell like he's been
29:31
walking down the streets behind the donkeys for the last three
29:35
days. Or, you know, walking through
29:37
the meat market in town or whatever he is.
29:40
Yeah. 1st century life in in Israel.
29:44
There's a lot of smells. There's a lot of smells I can
29:48
guarantee. I'd have to look back in Chosen
29:51
season 5 and the story of Mary and Martha where Mary, it shows
29:58
her going and shopping and trying to find the best perfume
30:02
available to do it. And so you see like the perfume
30:05
salesman and kind of laying out, if I remember correctly, I want
30:08
to say like Jasmine and vanilla was involved.
30:12
OK, potentially in one of the sense maybe might have not been
30:14
the one that she ended up getting.
30:17
But I think they like tried to do the research of like what was
30:19
considered the highest and rarest quality stuff at the time
30:23
in that region. And so if you want to smell like
30:26
Jesus's feet, go watch The Chosen or do some research and.
30:30
See if we can try a cedar wood kind of guy.
30:33
Recreate something. Yeah.
30:36
You had mentioned to me yesterday about theories about
30:40
his potential, the smell from the perfume of one of the
30:43
perfume stories having lasted longer.
30:46
Yeah. Can you remind me?
30:49
That Yeah, yeah, I heard somebody else talk about this.
30:54
The one of the other stories from the John anointing, which I
30:59
think it's John 12/1 to 8 and I think is is where it is.
31:04
He was talking about how would that second anointing taking
31:09
place in that week of Holy Week, you know, somewhere on either
31:13
side of the triumphal entry, thinking about how the scent of
31:18
that perfume would have still been lingering on Jesus as he
31:24
hung on the cross. And that was, that was so
31:27
poignant thought to me. I mean, because for me, like
31:33
immediately there's layers to that of right, he's being mocked
31:37
as a king and not a king. And so to have like a rare fancy
31:40
perfume would be another sign of royalty on him.
31:45
It's the lingering of people worshipping and laying down the
31:49
best for him and then also turning away.
31:51
Not that she turned away from him, but like in general, the
31:54
procession into town and then within a week and then you also
31:58
have this anointing oil preparing his feet for the the
32:04
road that he has to walk down in the the path that God has led
32:10
him towards in that week. Yeah.
32:12
And I think Matthew, Mark and John, each in their own way,
32:16
kind of say that or maybe they put, you know, record the words
32:19
from Jesus saying that what she has done, she has done to
32:23
prepare him for burial. And, you know, knowing that his
32:28
Burrow was going to have to be kind of a rush job because of
32:32
the impending Sabbath coming and stuff.
32:34
And, and, and if you're familiar with the stories from the
32:38
gospels, we we know that's true. He gets pulled down from the
32:41
cross the last kind of the last minute, wrapped up stuck in the
32:45
tomb. And on what we know is Easter
32:48
morning, the women are going to actually give him a proper
32:51
burial to put all the spices and sense and all those things that
32:58
I guess did something to preserve the body or at least
33:00
make it not smell quite as bad as it was decaying.
33:03
And Jesus never got there right, because because he rose.
33:08
And So what she did was enough for what he needed.
33:13
Oh that's good. Well lastly I wanted to cover
33:17
towards the end of their you for .5.
33:21
I have lived out of in out of encounter, not for it.
33:26
And you used one of the quotes that said our prayer sessions of
33:30
God waits to be wanted. Could you elaborate a little bit
33:34
more on that phrase of what that means for God waiting to be
33:39
wanted? Yeah, I think that phrase that
33:44
God waits to be wanted kind of speaks to God's desire not to
33:52
force himself into situations. And and that sometimes in our
34:01
lives, sometimes in the stories of Scripture, God's waiting to
34:06
act until he's wanted. He's waiting to come until we
34:12
want him to come. Not, not every time.
34:16
And I don't think it's some kind of magical wanting meter kind of
34:23
thing where we just have to get our desire up to a certain level
34:27
and then boom, God has to respond.
34:31
But it's like any relationship we have where where we want to
34:35
spend time with the people who want to spend time with us.
34:41
And I think, I think that's what Tozier is getting at in that
34:45
phrase of God waits to be wanted.
34:49
And so we have to wrestle with the question of whether we
34:54
actually want God or if we're just kind of content needing
34:59
him. Well, that's our conversation
35:01
for today, but that doesn't mean the conversation is over.
35:04
We'd love to hear your thoughts on these topics as well.
35:07
To ask a question about anything we've discussed in this episode
35:10
or to join the conversation, you can head over to
35:13
fumccollingswood.org/podcast. Thanks for being part of this
35:19
conversation.