Latest / Replay Reviews / The Wolf Among Us - Episode 5

Transcript

The Wolf Among Us - Episode 5 · Replay Reviews

0:00
Well, should we get started on episode 15, the wolf among us episode five?
0:06
Cry wolf.
0:07
Yes.
0:08
Should I do the out of context summary?
0:10
Let's hear it.
0:12
In this episode, the crooked man peeps in FBM, Collins beer gets warm waiting for
0:18
the elevator and Bigby's magic clothes make a convenient return.
0:23
So in the opening scene, we're now in the crooked man's lair where Bigby is
0:27
told Georgie is the killer.
0:29
The crooked man tries to lure him onto his side and a fight breaks out leading
0:33
to a chase that ends with Bigby catching Georgie and Vivian at the pudding and pie.
0:38
Remind me to never drop a cigarette because apparently that's an act of
0:42
aggression as soon as Bigby drops the cigarette, Jersey pulls a gun on him.
0:47
It's almost like a, like the beat drops, except it's a cigarette that drops.
0:53
Yeah, he's always smoking.
0:54
So if he drops a cigarette before it's done, maybe that's a bad sign.
0:59
The crooked man says that he's not trying to control Bigby.
1:03
Do we buy that?
1:04
Honestly, I think it's just a way to manipulate the situation.
1:08
Yeah.
1:08
And then moving forward, something I noticed with him is he likes to twist
1:13
other people's words and then not give them a chance to refute it.
1:17
To take that literally, that just means he's making people's words crooked.
1:21
Crooked?
1:25
Here comes Kathy.
1:28
Okay.
1:28
So here's the thing.
1:30
I told you that when I was rewatching this to get the summaries, I can't
1:34
believe we missed it when we watched it.
1:36
Georgie pulls out a pack of Huff and Puffs.
1:39
Wait, no.
1:42
How did we miss that?
1:43
It's at 407.
1:44
Let me, wait, sorry.
1:46
Do you mind if I go and-
1:47
Yeah, it's in the drive.
1:48
I want to watch it.
1:52
No, how did we miss that?
1:53
Wait, in our defense, it was like half a second.
1:57
So they could have like zoomed in.
2:01
Well, that's what I like is that so subtle.
2:03
So you have to be looking for it like we are.
2:05
And I remembered that he, that he smoked a cigarette there.
2:09
Okay.
2:09
And so I went back to see what it was because I also noticed later when they're
2:14
at the Put-in-Pie, there's a cigarette machine and it has Sure-ettes, which
2:18
we know Nerissa smokes, and it has Huff and Puffs.
2:22
So I was thinking, this was before I noticed that he's pulled out the Huff and Puffs.
2:27
And so this is why I went back to go look.
2:30
And so my question was, he must be the one that smokes them.
2:33
Otherwise, why would they be in the machine if nobody likes them?
2:37
Because everyone keeps saying, oh, that's a shit brand.
2:39
So it's him.
2:41
And then if we remember in the last episode when Nerissa is with Bigby in his office,
2:46
she says to him, I thought you were the only one who smoked that shit
2:50
brand or something along those lines.
2:52
So was she trying to point him in Georgie's direction right there?
2:55
Do you think?
2:56
I, I'm trying to think, because did Faith ever mention that to Bigby too?
3:02
Maybe it's both her and Nerissa.
3:05
I do think that she's trying to clue him in about it.
3:09
Cause why would she be bringing that up?
3:11
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
3:13
I feel like she's almost saying what we've been saying, which is if you find out who
3:17
else smokes these cigarettes, like you'll find your guy.
3:21
Confirmation.
3:22
We were on the right path with the Huff and Puffs.
3:25
It did lead to the killer.
3:26
It did.
3:27
And it's funny that because didn't other customers at Pudding Pie notice that too?
3:32
Like are anyone around Georgie, like do you think they would have spoke up to Bigby
3:36
saying, oh, hey, you and Georgie both smoked the Huff and Puff.
3:40
Do you think anyone else knew?
3:41
I think the only reason Nerissa said anything is because she knows that they both
3:46
smoked them and she's involved in this situation.
3:50
So I don't think anyone else would have had any reason to say anything.
3:53
I think that was just all Nerissa could say in that moment to sort of point him.
3:58
But here's my question with it being Georgie.
4:01
It seems like it's him, but wouldn't killing them hurt his own bottom?
4:06
Line for his business?
4:07
Probably not.
4:08
I do feel like the Pudding Pie is just a front for him to look like he has a job
4:14
in the source of income, where do you think that his biggest source of income is from
4:19
carrying out the Crooked Man's orders?
4:21
And then building off of that, the Crooked Man says that Georgie misinterpreted
4:26
his instructions and that's why they were killed.
4:30
B.S.
4:30
Agreed.
4:31
If it was a misinterpretation, then why did he let it happen again with the
4:35
Crooked Man again with Lily?
4:37
He's just trying to continue the persona of looking like, oh, it's not my fault
4:43
and everything, but I do think that his intention was to kill off every single one
4:49
or have someone do the hit for him.
4:52
Moving forward in the scene, Bigby stabs Georgie when Georgie comes at him with a
4:58
knife, and this was not a choice.
5:00
So it's something the game made you do.
5:03
And when Bigby realizes what he's done, he says, holy shit.
5:07
And so my question for you is, is this an indication that he
5:12
isn't always a hundred percent in control?
5:15
I do think that Bigby is in control, even though he looks surprised at stabbing him.
5:22
And I think it's because he's doing it out of self-defense.
5:26
He's not initiating and trying to like stab him with intent of like, I'm going
5:33
to kill you.
5:33
I hear you, but it kills him.
5:37
It was a pre- he disarms him, turns the knife and stabs him.
5:41
He could have thrown it.
5:43
He could have thrown Georgie.
5:45
I mean, yeah, heat of the moment.
5:47
What's going to happen is going to happen.
5:49
But I feel like his reaction, it loves saying, holy shit.
5:52
He seems surprised, I guess.
5:53
I guess that makes sense.
5:55
But it, for him, it's probably like, I either killed Georgie or Georgie
5:59
continues to hurt more people.
6:01
Yeah.
6:02
And then do you think since he was partially transformed, do you think he was stronger
6:08
in that moment than he realized?
6:09
And so the stab went deeper than he intended it to go.
6:13
I mean, if you're going to stab some of you, you're going to do it right.
6:16
Anyways, it doesn't matter if he's strong or not.
6:20
And so, I don't know.
6:21
I'm not really familiar with stabbing people, but I do think that being a wolf only
6:28
means that he's stronger and not necessarily that you lose control.
6:33
I think it got away from him a little bit.
6:36
I don't think he lost control.
6:38
It probably did.
6:38
But I think it was just, I think it was more than he intended to do.
6:43
He probably just forgot how much stronger he is in wolf form versus human form.
6:49
I think to lose control, he had to like lose his mind a bit.
6:52
And I don't think it ever gets to that point where he loses his mind and his choice
6:57
of what to do.
6:58
But this conversation leads me into my next question, which is why does everybody get
7:04
so hurt in this fight when fables can take so much damage?
7:08
At the very beginning of this game, they fall out a window.
7:11
They get an axe to the head.
7:12
Everyone's just fine and dandy.
7:15
Everyone seems like out of commission after this fight, and I feel like they should have
7:18
been able to take away more damage based off of what we've seen so far.
7:22
I think part of it has to do with their will to live.
7:25
I think if you're willing to keep fighting to live, maybe you're going to live longer.
7:31
Okay.
7:31
So you think like if they had gotten to Swineheart, maybe everyone would have been okay.
7:36
I think if they didn't want to live and even if Swineheart was there to heal them, they
7:40
probably wouldn't have survived it.
7:42
It just seems like a little bit of a plot hole to me because of how much damage we've
7:47
seen characters take and now all of a sudden it's just...
7:49
Woody took a hammer to the head, to the skull, and he was still fine.
7:54
This tiny little knife to the gut and immediately dies.
7:58
So Bigby is transformed and chases after Georgie and Vivian.
8:04
And then he finds his entire outfit in his size on a laundry line next to him.
8:10
They didn't need to add this in.
8:11
I know why they did so that we're not wondering, oh, why is he clothed again?
8:15
But I feel like this is even more unrealistic than him just magically having his clothes on again.
8:20
I feel like they should have just left the cut where it is and not do the clothes and
8:24
then the time break, which means that, oh, he probably went home, showered, cleaned himself
8:29
up, and then showed back up.
8:30
That would have made more sense behind the scenes.
8:33
Or even just put different clothes on him like he found.
8:36
Why was it his exact outfit?
8:39
It bothers me.
8:40
Or just go buck naked.
8:42
That would be so much more interesting.
8:44
That would be so much more intimidating though, if we're being honest.
8:47
I think so with like what, a wolf dog?
8:51
Well that, but just, you have to be pretty unhinged to just confront someone just butt naked.
8:58
I mean, I mean, if you wanted to flaunt it, you could.
9:03
Don't, don't tell me you wouldn't be more afraid of a situation like this.
9:07
They were fully nude.
9:09
Here's the thing.
9:09
If they're used to seeing Bigby like that, then they probably wouldn't be intimidated.
9:14
But for the first time, I think they would try to like avoid eye contact or lowering
9:19
the eye contact.
9:20
There's just something crazy about someone not carrying their naked in a situation like
9:24
this, especially.
9:26
I don't know.
9:27
Well, I mean, didn't, didn't we just have like the naked, the naked bicycle march?
9:31
Yeah, but that's different.
9:33
That's an event.
9:34
Like this is like someone's coming after you and they're all so naked.
9:40
Is that not more terrifying?
9:42
And he's like pretty hairy too.
9:45
Okay, moving on.
9:49
So he catches up to them.
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Georgie says that Faith and Lily tried to pull a runner on the crooked man.
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And this is why he ordered their executions.
9:59
And we'll learn more about that later.
10:00
But then Georgie says to Bigby, you can't know what it's like at the end of the day.
10:05
You're just like him referring to the crooked man.
10:08
What do you think he means by this?
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And do you think it's true?
10:12
If you're talking about in terms of leadership where they're more the authoritative
10:18
figures, where they want to really drive the direction.
10:22
So for the crooked men, it's like, I say this and you better carry out my orders.
10:27
And Bigby's like, I say this and I'm the law kind of thing.
10:31
It makes sense to make that kind of comparison.
10:35
But if you're talking about their morals and everything, then I don't think they're similar.
10:39
I think Georgie would be wrong about that.
10:42
I agree.
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And I think Georgie's saying a lot of things that he'll regret.
10:46
Well, he doesn't have a lot of time to regret them, but I think he does.
10:49
And the next one is revealing that Vivian is the origin of the ribbon spell and that
10:56
removing her ribbon is the only way to break the spell.
11:00
Quick question.
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Who ties the ribbons onto like Faith and Lily and everyone?
11:05
I guess it's more just the logistics of how does that work?
11:08
Did a witch cast a spell on ribbons in the tie or does Vivian have the ability to
11:14
cast a spell or the, you know what I'm saying?
11:15
Like, how do you make it?
11:17
It's just out of curiosity.
11:19
I don't think we know how Vivian ended up with it, but Georgie says that she used her
11:24
ribbon to make more of them.
11:26
So that was all her, but I don't know how it originated.
11:30
But then yeah, she decides to free the rest of her friends and removes the ribbon from
11:35
her neck, at which point she dies.
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Cause she was pretty emotional leading up to this.
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Do you think this was more out of sacrifice to actually save those girls and give them
11:46
freedom or is it more about her finally taking control because she seems pretty upset that
11:52
people use that ribbon to control her?
11:54
I think it's a mix of both where it's just taking back control to end her self-suffering
12:02
and the other girls can finally have their own freedom.
12:06
And maybe she, I don't know, she really regrets doing everything in the first place.
12:11
Well, this brings us to our first so long of this game.
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What is Vivian to you?
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Is she a mother of Spectre or a mother of ****?
12:19
I want to clarify a few points first is the intention behind tying the ribbons and putting
12:26
curses on those girls.
12:29
Do you think she was forced to do it?
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Like even though it was still kind of her choice or do you think she just like, I'm
12:36
going to suggest it and I say we pretty much silence these girls or like, I want to choose
12:40
these girls because I hate them and I'm going to like make them suffer.
12:43
So I guess it's the intention of I'm just going to force it on you or they're like, they
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willingly let her tie that ribbon around their necks.
12:51
Yeah.
12:51
So from my understanding, her and Georgie were sort of partners when they created this
12:56
place and the ribbons were, I don't know, both of their ideas or just hers or just his,
13:03
but it sounds like they both agreed to it and it was sort of a selling point, like discretion
13:09
is our guarantee as far as like which girls, I think once the crooked man sort of took
13:14
over, it seems like everyone who owed him money, he would have them working at the puddin
13:20
pie.
13:21
I think the third part is that do you think those girls knew that there was going to be
13:25
a curse placed on them the moment they get the ribbons on their necks?
13:29
I don't know.
13:30
It's a good question.
13:30
I don't know if they were told the severity of the situation.
13:34
If they remove them, they die.
13:37
I don't know.
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I find it hard to believe that anyone would agree to that though.
13:40
Before Vivian dies, I say that she's a mother just because she knows these are going to
13:46
be the consequences.
13:47
She's subjecting someone else to the same kind of pain she's in.
13:51
So I feel like that there's a lot of malicious intent behind that.
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Even though she's selfish and kills herself because she doesn't want to be in that pain
13:59
and suffering anymore.
14:00
She also recognizes that it releases the girls from their curses so they can take off their
14:05
ribbons.
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So I think on the spectrum of like mother and mother respect her, she starts in the
14:12
mother zone and when she ultimately sacrifices herself to help save the girls and to spare
14:18
herself some more pain, she moves up to the neutral area with the hint of mother.
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You know what I'm saying?
14:26
It's that not quite to like zero, maybe like negative one.
14:31
Like a smidge of mother-f*****-ness.
14:35
Yeah, I'm pretty close.
14:36
I think I'm a little more harsh on her just because she basically imprisoned them.
14:42
They couldn't speak freely.
14:43
She should have known better.
14:45
You know, she has been living with this.
14:47
She knows the risks involved and the fact that it started just for like a selling point,
14:53
that's pretty shallow to me.
14:55
And it just shouldn't have taken her this long to release them from it.
15:00
At the first death or even the first threat of death, you start thinking of a way out.
15:04
And I know that at this point, the Crooked Man was involved, but she could have done
15:09
this a long time ago.
15:10
I mean, obviously it wouldn't be an easy choice, but I mean, how do you not foresee this
15:15
happening?
15:16
So yeah, for me, she is a mother-f*****.
15:19
I guess with that, you're kind of like, oh, I'm not going to let her go.
15:21
So yeah, for me, she is a mother-f*****.
15:28
You do bring a really good point that she should have known better and she could have
15:33
broke the spell earlier.
15:34
Don't know if this is going to be true, but I think had Georgie not been in her life,
15:39
she would have been different.
15:40
A lot of the influence, the negative influence probably was with Georgie just seeing how
15:46
he treats the girls like Nerissa in the beginning.
15:48
Maybe you're right that she is more of a mother-f***** because it was pretty selfish in
15:55
the beginning.
15:56
Up to the very end, she was still very selfish.
16:00
And then she decided to go like, you know what, I'm going to call it quits.
16:04
Yeah. And then when she does that, it's sort of reactionary out of feeling betrayed by
16:08
Georgie and then feeling again like she's not in control.
16:11
So even the act of that, which you could say is selfless, it still feels like she was led
16:17
to make that decision by selfish motivations or by just being hurt by people, which isn't
16:24
fair. Does that bring us to Georgie?
16:28
Yeah.
16:29
Do you want to dive into it?
16:30
Yes. The first question is he puts so many people in danger, like all the girls and
16:37
everything. I mean, yes, he was also partnering with Vivian, but he also did seem like he
16:42
had a lot of say in the way it was going to go. His unwillingness to help cooperate, just
16:49
stalling and preventing Baby from bringing justice, that itself is already a reason why
16:54
he's a mother-f*****.
16:56
I agree. I think we've definitely got another mother-f***** here.
16:59
Yeah.
17:00
I mean, first off, it appears like he did kill two people.
17:03
So that's a pretty strong pull to the mother-f***** direction.
17:07
But second, he never even takes responsibility for his part in everything.
17:11
Oh, yeah.
17:12
Even if the crooked man is the real villain, his hands still did this.
17:17
He could have said no.
17:18
Right. Exactly. He could have said no.
17:21
And then even you could still admit, he says, yes, I killed them.
17:24
So what? It should be more like I thought I was going to die, but I wish I hadn't done
17:30
it. He never really took responsibility.
17:32
It never seemed like he felt regretful at all.
17:36
So that bothers me.
17:37
Or even regretful when he throws hateful words and pretty much throws Vivian under the bus
17:42
and everything. He acts like he's in love with her and all Romeo and Juliet by letting
17:47
himself die when she dies and everything.
17:49
But if he really loved her or had still some good intentions with her, which I doubt that
17:55
he has any, he would have apologized for hurting her or explained himself.
18:01
Yeah, exactly. That was my last point.
18:03
Like he throws her under the bus and turns his back on that relationship.
18:06
That seemed like it was pretty strong.
18:08
So, yeah, exactly.
18:09
You're right. And then she just drove him.
18:11
Here in this intense car chase with a werewolf.
18:15
And as soon as he gets his back into a corner, he turns on her.
18:21
That's so wrong. And then, like you said, he doesn't have an explanation.
18:24
All he says is I didn't mean it.
18:26
OK, then what did you mean?
18:28
So, yeah, for me, he's just definitely mother.
18:32
Mother. And then also, I briefly mentioned it, but he dies.
18:37
So Bigby has now killed somebody.
18:40
There are a lot of other people you could have killed if you had so chosen
18:45
earlier in the game, but this one's not a choice as far as I know.
18:50
Going back to the point that it takes a lot to kill a fable.
18:53
So in a way, I almost feel like Georgie killed himself in a way
18:59
where he didn't continue to fight to live, because I still am convinced that
19:02
if he wanted to live, he could have.
19:04
But I think it's just like he chose to die.
19:08
I don't agree.
19:10
But that's OK.
19:12
I mean, I think maybe if he'd gotten to Swineheart, he could have been saved.
19:16
But I think he would have bled out no matter what.
19:19
And then I had another thought, which you'll probably disagree with.
19:23
But when the stabbing occurs, this is right after Bigby finds out that he is the killer.
19:28
So do you think there is even just a little bit of anger in that stab or even just vengeance?
19:35
Or if you want to call it justice for these women?
19:38
I don't I still don't understand how that's a fatal wound, you know, like, yeah.
19:43
Me and like Woody took an axe to the head to the skull and survived.
19:48
Like, I don't I watch this again and I don't understand how it's fatal.
19:51
That's why I feel like we are disagreeing on this is because it seems like it shouldn't have killed him.
19:56
So I think that's why you're leaning on, oh, he chose to die and I'm leaning on.
20:01
I think it's a plot hole.
20:03
OK, yeah, I guess, yeah, we both agree that, yeah, it seems like it shouldn't have killed him.
20:08
Mm hmm. And so my my argument is if this is not a plot hole.
20:12
And this was my question, do you think since he learned Georgie was the killer,
20:15
there is maybe a little bit of loss of self-control due to to anger because he found out that he killed them?
20:23
I think not only is it anger, I think it's anger mixed with setting like as the law enforcer,
20:29
he's also seeking revenge on his behalf.
20:32
It's not just his anger, but it's everyone's anger and he's the one carrying it out.
20:38
Yeah. Moving on, scene one.
20:41
Mm hmm. OK, so Bigby arrives at Shepherd Metalworks after Georgie said he would find the crooked man there.
20:47
Bloody Mary attacks him and the crooked man is taken into custody.
20:51
This was such an intense scene, the fight scene.
20:53
Yeah, there's not a whole lot of notes because most of it's fighting.
20:57
But my first note is just Georgie sells out the crooked man, which is a fatal flaw in the crooked man's design.
21:04
If he has to keep sacrificing people like this to save himself sooner or later, he's going to have no one left.
21:10
Either he's turned everyone over or enough of them have seen that happen that they're like, well, I'm going to be next.
21:16
And then they leave. But then that brings up a question.
21:20
Can they leave? Can you just leave the crooked man's inner circle?
21:24
I think in a way, because I feel like the crooked man would have not needed anyone else.
21:30
Like he would have kept recruiting people, especially with people who owe him and everything.
21:34
He could have kept recruiting people, not very competent people, but he could have.
21:39
So I think it's fine that if he kept killing people and probably to the very last person,
21:44
he's just going to be the one who ends it and kills that person.
21:47
Yeah. And do you think his design works until Bigby and Snow are in control?
21:54
Because we know he had Crane in his pocket.
21:56
So did it just take someone actually pushing back for his structure to start falling apart?
22:04
I don't know. I don't know where you're leaning on this one.
22:07
What do you think? He weirds me out.
22:11
He does. Because I feel like he's losing control, but he's acting like he's not.
22:17
But in that opening scene, you see some people start to push back like Vivian.
22:22
And then also we hear him through the door before Bigby gets in there,
22:25
that he's planning on trying to get Bigby on his side.
22:29
And that's clearly not working. And he starts to get angry.
22:33
The crooked man starts to get angry in that opening scene.
22:36
But then later in this scene, when he confronts Bigby, he's all calm again.
22:42
And so I get weirded out by him because I think it's starting to crumble now that some force has been applied to it.
22:49
But he's either just not willing to admit it or he's pretending it's not happening.
22:54
I think he's in denial. I think that's maybe our third option is that to get where he is,
22:59
he must have had some pushback in his experience. Right.
23:02
So I feel like this one, I think deep down he knows it's crumbling,
23:05
but he's just in denial that he thinks he can still talk his way out, that people are dumb.
23:10
Yeah. And we'll see that in the last scene.
23:12
Yeah. I honestly, I do think that he knows it's crumbling.
23:17
He knows it's like he's going to lose it. And the only way he can cope is to pretend that he still has enough power to make other people believe him.
23:27
Bigby enters the building and we see a board with a bunch of pictures thumbtacked to it.
23:32
And I listed them out. We see the picture of Bigby in snow.
23:39
We also see an image that was also in Lily's box of belongings from the trip trap,
23:44
showing what appears to be Nerissa, Faith, and a third woman who I'm assuming is Lily, but we don't have confirmation on that.
23:52
Then there's a picture of Holly in snow, a picture of Bigby outside the pawn shop after that fight because he's all bloody.
23:58
And then there's a picture of Faith whispering in Bigby's ear and then the two of them talking.
24:04
And one last picture of Faith yelling at Nerissa.
24:08
So I don't know what those tell us. And I think we'll go back to this either at the end of this episode or in the summary,
24:14
because it confuses me. It confuses a lot of my theories that I have.
24:18
When you read that, like the whole Faith yelling at Nerissa, I am curious what it is about.
24:24
So then we get to the fight between Bigby and Bloody Mary.
24:28
And a few notes on her character. It seems like she can basically teleport anywhere at any moment.
24:35
And she can multiply. It seems like we get down to the last one, the true Bloody Mary.
24:41
And it seems like Bigby, in his true form, by the way, which is a giant wolf, kills her.
24:46
Can we be sure she's really dead? Can we be sure that that was her?
24:50
You know, what's to stop her from creating all these clones and then just teleporting away?
24:56
That's the thing. We don't know if she's dead or not.
24:58
I agree.
24:59
And here's the thing. She's actually stronger than Bigby in a way, because in that original fight, she ends up not killing him.
25:07
But I feel like she could have, she wanted to. And I feel like she's smart enough to not let herself be in the position Bigby was in.
25:15
Yeah, I hate her, but she's really smart. And that's why I feel like she's still out there. We may never know.
25:22
And then after this fight is over, Bigby's back in his human form.
25:28
And we have an AABM, an almost-almost booty moment.
25:33
Although, the Crooked Man is kind of peeping at him from that window, so I think for him that might have been an FBM.
25:39
Full booty moment.
25:43
But that brings us to scene two, unless you have any more notes on scene one.
25:46
Nope.
25:47
Bigby and the Crooked Man make it to the Witching Well chamber, where Snow and many members of Fable Town are gathered for the Crooked Man's trial.
25:54
And the crowd is undecided until Larissa shows up and seals his fate.
25:58
I honestly don't think the Crooked Man believed he did wrong. He believes that he's the hero. It's all about how he helps the people.
26:07
And he believes that he's their savior. And so, yes, partially he's in denial, but it's also because he still thinks he's doing the right thing.
26:17
I think he maybe even originally started out that way, you know, being good. Along the way, he realized how much money he could make.
26:27
Or it was always sort of about control and sees this as, I know it's right for you, so let me control you.
26:33
No one person can know what's right for everybody. And then that's when he might start to lose control of someone.
26:39
And that's when forcing people into debt and all of that starts.
26:42
And I think at some point he realized that he's a really good manipulator, so why not just continue that and to get people to do what he wants?
26:50
My first note is just Snow says that she's glad he made it back in one piece. And then they just smile at each other.
26:57
My other note, what side is Bluebeard on?
27:01
Like he's been so shady this whole game and now he's all gung-ho, kill the crooked man.
27:07
And I kind of thought he was on his payroll, so I don't know what to think of him.
27:10
I actually think it's because Bluebeard wants to take his place.
27:14
Between Bluebeard just being way too happy to want to smash these brains and he's just obviously he's doing everything for his personal gain.
27:26
He was criticizing why Snow got to be where she is and be the self-elected leader.
27:32
So I think he's just jealous and trying to protect his spot by making sure no one gets to have any more power.
27:39
So when the time comes, he can be the most powerful.
27:42
Yeah, the only way I can make sense of his character is that he's just doing what's right for him in every situation.
27:50
In this situation, it's best to have the crooked man out of his way because that's someone more powerful than him.
27:55
It seems like he's power hungry.
27:57
It seems like he doesn't really have a side.
27:59
It's just what's best for him.
28:02
I get so annoyed at the crooked man when he keeps interrupting and cutting off Snow.
28:09
And then he even says, I didn't mean to interrupt.
28:12
It's like, yes, you did.
28:13
100 percent. It was your intention.
28:15
Then shut up if you don't want to.
28:16
Right? Like quit, dude.
28:17
I just interrupted you.
28:20
I was just interrupting you as I was making my comments.
28:22
No, it's perfect.
28:25
It's so annoying, though.
28:26
I'm surprised Bigby didn't snap earlier.
28:29
Snow didn't say, well, then stop interrupting me if you didn't mean to interrupt.
28:33
Yeah, he does finally say let her finish.
28:36
It's too late, though.
28:37
He should have done that like second.
28:39
I wish you had given me the option to slap him.
28:41
Yeah, it might have, but I'm pretty sure it didn't.
28:43
I oh my gosh, so annoying.
28:47
And then she starts reading off.
28:48
I'm pretty sure everyone.
28:49
Sorry, go ahead.
28:51
I was going to say, I'm pretty sure everyone would slap him like if they had the option
28:55
to.
28:56
100 percent.
28:57
Everyone would be like, slap him.
28:58
He's the worst.
28:59
But then Snow starts reading off the charges against him.
29:03
And this is when she says the term forced prostitution.
29:06
And this has kind of been a question for us.
29:08
I think we've sort of decided that these women are in debt and they get sort of dragged into
29:12
the prostitution.
29:13
But we've never really had confirmation until now.
29:18
And then following that point up, he makes the argument, when your government abandoned
29:23
you, I was there to look out for you.
29:25
Who's the real villain here?
29:27
Because we have talked about the government failing, but at that time, the government
29:32
was Crane.
29:33
I feel like he separates himself from the government, though.
29:38
He's his own entity and everyone else is another entity.
29:42
Yeah.
29:43
He's controlling Crane and we know the business office wasn't doing anything to help.
29:48
So do you think that was the crooked man's design?
29:51
The business office can't help you, so now you have to come to me.
29:54
So do you think that was all part of his plan, making the government look like they're incapable
30:00
or not wanting to help people?
30:02
I think so.
30:03
And I think he probably was the one who would be spreading rumors and gossiping saying that,
30:08
oh, Bigby's the worst.
30:10
Don't go to Bigby.
30:11
He sucks.
30:13
Prince is here and he says that Faith was manipulated and that she didn't want to go
30:18
into prostitution.
30:20
So we just keep getting confirmation, even though the crooked man seemingly is starting
30:25
to sway some of the crowd.
30:28
Oh man, and I just have to mention the low blow when he compares Snow to Crane.
30:35
Oh.
30:36
At that point he was desperate to make people hate Snow or to start planting seeds of doubt
30:44
in Snow's credibility.
30:45
Yeah.
30:46
It almost seems like a childish little swipe at her.
30:49
I think this is exactly how it opens up for Auntie Greenleaf to want to jump in because
30:55
she already doesn't like Snow.
30:57
It's a way of giving her the opening to try to turn citizens against Snow.
31:02
Yeah, exactly.
31:03
And that is when Snow starts to own up to her mistakes.
31:07
This comment from the crooked man that leads to Auntie Greenleaf questioning her, I think
31:12
it sort of backfires because it shows the crowd.
31:15
She is self-aware.
31:16
Well, that's the thing is that the crooked man's only used to being around people like
31:21
Georgie who will never own up to their mistakes.
31:24
And he doesn't do that.
31:26
He thinks everyone is similar to him where they're probably not going to own up to their
31:30
mistakes.
31:31
He backfires, he's not used to seeing people like that.
31:33
My question is why is Auntie Greenleaf so quick to protect the crooked man?
31:38
So yeah, this is kind of interesting to me because she's not the one that you would expect
31:42
to stand up and say, let's not kill him.
31:45
I don't know if she's still just grateful to him for getting her tree and allowing her
31:51
a way to get income.
31:53
I think they're in cahoots.
31:54
I think that she might be the next crooked man.
31:58
I just don't trust her.
32:01
Then Nerissa shows up, the spell's been broken and she seals the crooked man's fate when
32:06
she says she was in the room when he ordered Faith and the Lee to be killed.
32:12
And they decide to lock him up.
32:15
Well, Bigby decides to lock him up.
32:17
And then he says, you're going to take the word of a stupid.
32:21
And then she cuts him off.
32:22
And I want to know a stupid what?
32:24
What was he going to say?
32:26
Prostitute.
32:27
I hate to say this, but I'm pretty sure he was going to say a stupid word.
32:32
And it seems like as he's getting more desperate, he's starting to get a little more childish
32:36
and just kind of nasty and less eloquent.
32:39
And I think this is the height of him just losing control, losing the crowd, losing support.
32:46
He's grasping at straws.
32:48
Yeah.
32:49
They're trying to decide what to do with him.
32:51
And Nerissa makes a suggestion of having Bigby decide because they appointed him sheriff.
32:55
He is the only appointed official.
32:58
And so my big question with this is it seems like a lot of citizens fear Bigby, but then
33:04
they appointed him sheriff.
33:06
I don't really understand that.
33:08
I think it's they fear him for what he can do to them, but they don't fear him for what
33:15
he does.
33:16
OK.
33:17
But they don't mind him doing all the dirty work for them.
33:20
It's pretty much the same as Beast thinking that Bigby is such a terrible person.
33:26
And when the time comes, they're like, hey, can you just kill him so we don't have to
33:29
pay back your debt?
33:31
So it's pretty like they're pretty much hypocrites that they fear him, yet they want him to do
33:35
his dirty work.
33:36
But they're going to judge him when he does do dirty work for them.
33:40
Later in the next scene, he'll say, it's never enough for them.
33:44
So yeah, I think you're onto something.
33:45
I think they have these things they ask him to do, but then they're mad when he does it
33:51
because maybe it scares them.
33:52
It's not even them.
33:54
Snow.
33:55
Snow too.
33:56
Yeah.
33:57
Yeah.
33:58
With the dust settled, Bigby sends off the fables headed to the farm, including the crooked
34:01
man who Auntie Greenleaf has turned into a crow.
34:04
Nereza makes a confession to Bigby and leaves him dismayed.
34:08
Again, what is with Bluebeard?
34:12
Does he now have a job at the business office?
34:15
I thought Snow thought that he was up to something.
34:18
So what the heck is going on?
34:19
I don't know.
34:20
I feel like, I don't know if Snow's just having a dumb moment of like, you know what, go ahead,
34:26
I'm tired, come help me.
34:28
Or if it's like, keep your friends close, but your enemies closer, and she wants to
34:32
keep an eye on him at all times.
34:34
Yeah.
34:35
I feel like we never find out his involvement in all of this.
34:38
And I don't know if, you know, if we had gone to Crane's apartment first and seen him burning
34:42
stuff, if that would have explained it.
34:45
But it seems pretty clear that they hint that he's involved with something, that he's up
34:49
to something.
34:50
And I feel like we never figure out what that is.
34:54
I'm bothered by the fact that we don't know if it's potentially Auntie Greenleaf, Bluebeard,
35:00
and the Crooked Man actually all partnering something even further behind the scenes,
35:04
or maybe Bluebeard is the real puppet master.
35:08
And Auntie Greenleaf is helping Bluebeard manipulate the crooked man.
35:13
I think something's going on.
35:16
And I think that we either missed it, or made choices that made us miss it, or we just never
35:23
know.
35:24
I feel so sad for Colin, because it's being sent to the farm, possibly turned into bacon.
35:29
I couldn't figure, I didn't think he was.
35:31
Well, at first I thought he was.
35:33
But then at the truck, Toad asks, where's Colin?
35:37
And I chose to answer, how should I know?
35:39
And it was either like, how should I know, or I think something like, he's not going
35:44
to the farm.
35:45
So it seems like he's not going.
35:48
Because I feel like the way Colin gives him attitude kind of shows that he's mad at Big
35:55
B.
35:56
Yeah, that's what I felt too.
35:57
Yeah.
35:58
The other thing is that it could just be an act, and it's actually Big B helping him,
36:02
but they need Colin to pretend like he's mad or something, just in case someone's watching.
36:06
You know, does he wink at him?
36:08
I think Colin winks at him.
36:10
Hold on.
36:11
Wait, are you watching it?
36:12
Yeah, let me watch it again.
36:14
Okay.
36:15
He winks at him!
36:17
Wait, wait, what time is it?
36:20
5815.
36:21
How did we miss the Colin wink?
36:24
What?
36:25
He winks!
36:26
Let me watch it again.
36:29
Wait, okay, I completely missed the wink.
36:32
So did I.
36:33
Wait, where's he walking to?
36:35
I think he's going to Big B's apartment.
36:37
He's carrying a six pack or like a five pack.
36:40
Yeah, and that was my thing is first of all, he complains to Snow about not having thumbs
36:44
and not being able to work, but somehow he gets his mouth around a six pack.
36:48
And then what is he just waiting outside the elevator for someone to come by and it opens
36:52
so he can hop in?
36:54
He's not going to the farm then, right?
36:56
Mm-mm.
36:57
He isn't.
36:58
It's an act.
37:00
The wink, dude.
37:01
Yeah, we both missed it.
37:03
Wow.
37:04
We missed the wink and the huffing puffs.
37:07
This is why we rewatch when we have questions.
37:09
I don't have anything in tone to risk, so do you have anything about Toad or Toad Jr.
37:14
Yeah, well, Toad Jr.
37:16
He's so cute.
37:17
I feel so bad.
37:18
I know, Toad yells at him.
37:20
I know, and here's the thing.
37:21
Do you think that it's the right choice to force the people who can't afford Glamrs into
37:27
the farm?
37:28
For now, I understand it because there is the risk of someone seeing this and then everyone's
37:35
in danger.
37:36
But I do think that the system is rigged against these kind of characters, like Colin said.
37:42
The conversation between Nerissa and Bigby, it's actually really nice and to end on the
37:48
note where almost full circle where Faith goes, you're not so bad to Bigby.
37:56
In the end, it just reaffirms that Nerissa agrees that Bigby isn't that bad and it's
38:02
nice to, for the first time, really have the change in perspective where his conversation
38:07
is led by someone who has faith in him versus someone who's afraid of him or doubts him
38:13
or wants to use Bigby for their own selfish reasons.
38:17
Or you see him, I don't know what's up with Snow and him with that relationship, but it's
38:22
pretty toxic in my opinion.
38:24
So it's actually nice to see someone who genuinely thinks of Bigby as a good person.
38:29
Agreed.
38:30
And he even says, I don't know where we stand right now, I think she's sort of in denial
38:36
that she likes him.
38:38
And then with everything that's going on, she's just not been very good to him.
38:44
So hopefully that'll change because he definitely likes her, but I agree.
38:49
Nerissa being so honest with him and then also, like you said, reaffirming that he's
38:55
not doing the wrong thing.
38:56
It's great.
38:57
I think he needed that.
38:58
And then yeah, she says a couple things.
39:03
First off, she lied.
39:05
She says she knows that it was the Crooked Man, but she wasn't actually there when he
39:11
gave the order.
39:12
That might have changed the outcome of what happened with the Crooked Man.
39:16
And then that raises the question, is it right or is it wrong to lie for justice?
39:22
Like, I guess we don't know for sure.
39:25
She does what the truth is, but do you think she did the right thing or is it a little
39:30
questionable?
39:31
This is the same issue that you face in reality too with the justice system too.
39:38
Not trying to get too political, so please don't come at me.
39:42
We've all seen making a murderer.
39:45
It's just the thing is, honestly, I haven't seen it, so I'm just going to ignore that.
39:52
Not everyone has seen it.
39:53
But anyways, well, the thing is that how much of a technicality do they have in their town?
39:59
Do you need all your T's crossed and I's dotted or is it like my word, good enough?
40:07
It's almost like in those situations where you have evidence, but you tamed it incorrectly
40:11
and all of a sudden that evidence becomes invalid.
40:13
The evidence still points to the truth, but the process of doing it is wrong.
40:17
And sometimes you question like, is the means to an end worth sacrificing everything in
40:23
between and stuff?
40:24
So in a way, long story short, I think she did the right thing.
40:29
So much of what we learned in this game is just it doesn't have evidence.
40:34
The only hard evidence we have is the Huff and Puff connection, cigarette in the room
40:40
and Georgie smoking them.
40:42
And then the last one is the picture of Crane and Lily.
40:45
We get confirmation here that she stole that.
40:48
So those are really the only three facts we have.
40:51
Everything else is just something somebody said.
40:54
Well here's the thing, I think to build off what you're saying is that had Nerissa not
40:59
did what she did and she knows that there's so few evidence out there, Justice would have
41:05
never been served for Faith and Lily.
41:07
He would have gotten away with it and she knows that, she knows there wasn't enough
41:10
evidence.
41:11
She knows what was going to happen.
41:13
So this was the only way left for her.
41:16
But then she says that she left Faith's head to get Bigby's attention.
41:21
And then if you remember, he found a scrap of jeans fabric at the scene.
41:26
And so when I was playing this, I remembered that and I wasn't paying attention to the
41:30
dialogue because I was just like looking at her pants to see if there was a piece missing.
41:35
And you can't see any of it missing, but then one of the dialogue options is that piece
41:39
of fabric.
41:41
So I think we can say with fairly good certainty that it was a piece of her jeans and that
41:47
she did leave the head there.
41:49
Well, what the jeans thing though?
41:52
I think we've only ever seen her wear a dress like that outfit.
41:56
I don't think we've ever seen her wear anything different.
41:58
Yeah, I think maybe it's just when she's not working.
42:04
Then she walks away and says, you're not as bad as everyone says you are, which we earlier
42:10
heard Faith say to him.
42:13
And then this spurs a plethora of memories and realizations for Bigby.
42:19
We hear multiple familiar voices and lines from the game and it is confusing.
42:25
And I think we're going to save figuring this out for the summary.
42:29
I think we've got a lot of rewatching to do.
42:31
Yes.
42:32
So I'm excited to really look into all these quotes.
42:36
Me too.
42:37
I had the exact same reaction.
42:38
It's like, what is going on?
42:39
And we watched it together.
42:40
I was trying not to say too much.
42:42
I think we really do need to listen to it line by line to analyze what it is.
42:47
But I have an episode look back real quick before we finish.
42:51
Nerissa convinces Fabletown to allow Bigby to make the choice on what to do with the
42:56
Crooked Man.
42:58
Did she play a long game here by gaining Bigby's trust?
43:01
And then in this moment, she sees her opportunity to sort of cash in on that because we know
43:06
she lied about the Crooked Man.
43:08
So I was just curious because she's the one that ultimately convinces everyone else to
43:14
let him make the decision.
43:16
And she's also the one who gives the evidence people were looking for.
43:21
So it seems like she kind of manipulates everybody with this lie.
43:25
I think there's two parts.
43:26
So the first part is letting Bigby choose to decide.
43:30
And I don't think it's like she's manipulating people to let Bigby make the decision.
43:36
I think the decision always rested with him as the share.
43:40
So I think it's just her standing up for Bigby in that moment to clarify that he can make
43:44
the decision.
43:46
And then as for the giving people the evidence that she needed, I think yeah, that part did
43:52
have some manipulation in it.
43:54
Feels weird because it had to have happened otherwise he would have been set free.
44:00
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
44:03
And I mostly agree with you.
44:05
It's more so I have questions about it.
44:08
She pulls that lie, puts the decision in his hands.
44:12
I don't necessarily know if that was out of manipulation, but more out of mutual trust
44:17
maybe.
44:18
But then also would she have trusted him to make that decision if she hadn't lied about
44:23
hearing him or the deaths?
44:25
And then at the end of the game when she confesses the truth to him, is that just sort of like
44:32
her coming clean and apologizing to him?
44:34
I think they have mutual trust, but I think she did sort of take advantage of it in that
44:40
moment.
44:41
Yeah, I think there is no other way about it.
44:43
She had to take advantage of him.
44:46
If she didn't make that lie, do you think she still would have advocated to have Bigby
44:50
make that final decision?
44:51
I think that's the question of how deep does the manipulation or taking advantage, whatever
44:56
you want to call it, how much of it was intentional.
44:59
But the fact that she sort of confesses the truth to him makes me think that she feels
45:04
a little guilty about it.
45:05
At least not about the crooked man, but about putting Bigby in that position where he made
45:10
a decision based off of a lie.
45:14
Well cigarette count?
45:15
Yes.
45:16
Oh my god.
45:17
What did I say?
45:18
You said six.
45:19
There were three.
45:22
My game total guess was 17.
45:25
He smoked 18 and one cigar.
45:28
So I think I was two away, but I mean I did play through it before we started watching.
45:36
We'll summarize it next week.
45:37
We'll try to get to the bottom of this confusing Nerissa situation.
45:40
If you still have questions on that ending.
45:47
We might not figure it out, so you might be very let down, but we're gonna do our best.
45:53
Prepare yourself for disappointment.
45:55
And that way we can over deliver.
45:56
Alright, you want to count us off?
45:59
Yep.
46:00
Voice recorder on one.
46:02
Three, two, one.