Latest / CRYPTO 101 / Ep. 744 The Next Trillion Dollar Market Coming to Crypto Rails with Derivnex

Transcript

Ep. 744 The Next Trillion Dollar Market Coming to Crypto Rails with Derivnex · CRYPTO 101

• 0:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, ladies and gentlemen, here we are live with George Harrington CEO of Derivinex, we're at the Audi Summit.
• 0:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Great to see you.
• 0:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Great to be here.
• 0:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's, yeah, Audi's.
• 0:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's nice.
• 0:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think we're going to get a little bit of rain, but here we are, you know, this is a event sponsored by the tie.
• 0:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're really excited to have George with us to talk about Derivinex incubated by DRW.
• 0:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we got a lot of questions to go through.
• 0:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so before we get too deep into it, George, introduce yourself, tell us a
• 0:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sure.
• 0:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, recent joiner to DRW have been with the firm for just about three months now.
• 0:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Prior to that, I spent eight years at MSCI, it was global-headed derivatives, a big index company, and looked after their whole derivative portfolio of features, options, OTC.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Before that, I spent ten years with Bloomberg where I was head of global markets, built a lot of their trading platform and trading technology, swap execution facilities, multilateral
• 1:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And basically, was working actively between MSEI and DRW on the ability to take an OTC transaction to put it on chain.
• 1:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nice.
• 1:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Focus was to get a standard indexed 12-return swap and have that basically routed on to the can't-to-network and then move into digital settlements.
• 1:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: So either tokenized assets, stablecoin, or whatnot for all of the cash flows that go on
• 1:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: In the market, there's been certainly iterations that have looked at it, but I think that the formation of traffic players around canton number one and then a rowing acceptance of stable point and tokenized deposits as a medium of transaction really was sort of like, you know, the bell that the time is now DRW decided to create a company to do this.
• 2:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're in the process of, we're in build mode right now.
• 2:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have a team of about 15 developers who are working way actively on it.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: We just hired a head of operations.
• 2:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're actively looking at stuff.
• 2:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: A few CTO candidates now.
• 2:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully that will get done soon.
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah.
• 2:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're,
• 2:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: The thing that we're super excited about is that we keep finding new use cases.
• 2:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So certainly, as an idea of W, we have an active equity swap portfolio, it trades like quantitative investment strategies, some total return swaps.
• 2:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're starting to get into single name swaps, which are growing in popularity.
• 2:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then there's the commodity world.
• 2:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's the rates world.
• 2:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's the crypto world itself, of course.
• 2:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of greens hashure, a lot of OTC activity.
• 2:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's the use case after use case after use case keeps coming along.
• 2:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're pretty excited about the whole venture.
• 2:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome.
• 2:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess my first question just off the bat, hearing about your background, MSCI and several other Wall Street heavy hitters, why crypto and why now?
• 3:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, what kind of was it about this industry where you said, you know what, I'm gonna take
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe even the career risk of jumping over to this wild west asset class or the unknown.
• 3:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about that decision.
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so very specifically for index players, right?
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of activity going on in the index space around things like hyper liquid that you see different iterations of
• 3:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: tokenized funds, so whether it be an index fund, whether it be, you know, a deposit that's backed by an index, and then also index providers putting their IP on chain either via tokenized asset or directly, right?
• 3:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you think about, you know, I said P500 futures, you know, S&P 500, S or S&P, I should say was the first mover in terms of putting their license index onto hyperliquid to allow
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: They'd also done activity where they created a new index and their working was the partners on that side.
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it was very clear to me, sitting at my desk at MSCI that this time was real because in the triadfi world of derivatives, we've been going to conferences for.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: more than 10 years.
• 4:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's been blockchain, it's coming, there wasn't really sort of the tokenization sort of drive, you know, at least until the last couple of years.
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then it really started happening right now.
• 4:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: There were venues where these things were trading.
• 4:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: You obviously saw, you know, see me and another start to launch obviously, you know, Bitcoin futures, but also allowing for perpetuals.
• 4:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that was really the bell for me.
• 4:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, okay, if you're going to create a
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: gives you exposure to the index, and you could do it on a defy exchange, but you are getting the exact exposure that you want.
• 4:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: How does that affect the ETF world?
• 4:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: How does that affect the mutual fund world in terms of these exposure or standard features, right?
• 4:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Which again, we did very well at MSCI with those, but Perps was a new thing.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, dove deeper into it, really sort of saw what
• 5:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: know, these tokenized transactions can do velocity capital really is a huge factor, especially if you look at a firm like a DRW or firms like us, so yes, you know, have been a lot of growth in that area, velocity capital is huge in terms of settling everything atomically, you know, on trade aid or are we set date for a swap or something like that?
• 5:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: But then furthermore, you know, as the industry expands, being able to do things like single name, single name swaps or even in index swaps, but you've got a lot of reset points.
• 5:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you're digitally settling in the money's moving, you know, on that same day versus a T plus one or a T plus two lag, these are these are game changers.
• 5:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that we've really looked at or I mean, DRW is always really looked at, you know, what's gone on in crypto, you know, and then for track five players, the security of the blockchain, the digital record keeping versus, you know, what today is still a lot of emails and, you know, Chaseers being sent around in terms of what happened, you know, where are we on this
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Excel spreadsheet, what's in the basket?
• 6:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Having to trust some guy who might even be a competitor that you're facing on, that's right.
• 6:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just taking their word for it, right?
• 6:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So now digital record, digital record, all through the life of the swap, the value is there.
• 6:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, again, velocity capital.
• 6:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
• 6:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, atomic settlement, all on T or on whether it's reset date maturity date, that's those were game changers for the OTC and this is huge because like a lot of people think, oh, so if I wire and I don't get it till tomorrow, if I ace it, it's not that big of a deal.
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that's because it's your hundred dollar wire to your body.
• 6:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, when you're dealing with billions of dollars, you know, every single day, it's in transit.
• 6:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a crew in interest.
• 6:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not being able to be leveraged.
• 6:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can't, you know, turn it into what you want to turn it into, it's also read deployment, right?
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's actually, so especially in equity, and we just came out of the earnings cycle and you saw the incredible numbers.
• 6:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: His story.
• 7:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 7:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So with the volatility that we're seeing, if you, if you move the money cycle up by a day, a day and a half, that just means there's more opportunity.
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So.
• 7:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think widely the industry sees that now, and also, again, where you look at, where you look at, especially in the equity world, because a lot that most of it's unclear in the equity world is all unclear to no T.C., that is the lowest hanging fruit where we can help solve problems.
• 7:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think you're the perfect guy to ask this question, too, because I've been dying to ask somebody.
• 7:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if you could comment directly on the suit, see a me, or I think it's see a me as suing the SEC for their proliferation of perpetual futures.
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were trying to protect dated futures and all that kind of stuff.
• 7:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why is the perpetual swap or the perpetual future?
• 7:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why is that so important?
• 7:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: What does it do?
• 7:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is it on lock that dated futures, dated options really couldn't in the incumbents are just like freaking out about this?
• 8:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, well, the easiest answer is that those futures all are rolling.
• 8:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 8:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's money for them.
• 8:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Every time you roll it, every single time.
• 8:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the role is a key part of the future's industry and a per never mature.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 8:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you put on the exposure.
• 8:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're gaining, I mean, it's basically a purpose as they is an undated total
• 8:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: where you're getting the return over your life of your holding and therefore you're not going through the rolling cycle.
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that, you know, for for traditional exchange, they see their castle melee, they also see that they're either they need to move in a dot, but it also it for sure is is is competition coming directly into their space.
• 8:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 8:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And also, you see that, I mentioned S&P before, so the biggest equity future on CME is on SPX.
• 8:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then obviously you've got the SPX now trading on HyperLick with.
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there, I'm sure if you're sitting in that chair, it's like, what do we do?
• 8:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got some risk on here.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, is the perpetual future just as safe?
• 9:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it just as risk manageable as a dated contract?
• 9:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it depends on your venue, right?
• 9:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: And also, you're risk for appetite.
• 9:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that where,
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you look at the traditional exchanges and that's why you are seeing a lot of motion around perpetuals.
• 9:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think SGX was the first, at least like one of the same as 40, I think it works.
• 9:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're just one of the first ones to do pubs.
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is a lot of activity at CME itself, at I said other exchanges.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I do think you will see a run into that space around around perpetual futures.
• 9:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's the rolling concept, moving around the world now.
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: How does the pricing structure change?
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not really sure.
• 9:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do know for sure that, like when you're looking at a tripod by side, whether it be an acid owner, an investment manager, hedge fund, I think that they're going to be, there's going to be varying levels of caution into going to real defy exchanges for purps, because again, there's been hundreds of years of history of these things work right.
• 10:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: They can manage a financial crisis,
• 10:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: know, the waterfall, the false scenarios, work, you go back to the GFC, right?
• 10:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: None of the exchanges, you know, where core work crumbling, so I think that it will still take a while for real, real traditional players to move into Perps on D on D via exchanges.
• 10:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you find yourself having to do a lot of explaining about what happened October 6, October 10th, Binance, all the perpetual futures, you know, they went to zero.
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: They had auto liquidations, you know, when you're talking to clients and stuff, do they say, well, how could that not happen to your product?
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So really, really, really not at all, and that's because we are, we're very much in the OTC world.
• 10:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: All of the transactions that we're going to do are still based on, is that it is the LEI to LEI.
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, so it's great that down for our audience.
• 10:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, so based on the, the, the we go swap agreements between the counterparty.
• 11:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they just, so they know each other.
• 11:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Guy, so there's KYC, or your client, AML, anti, anti money laundering.
• 11:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they're still, they still are falling back on their traditional onboarding.
• 11:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you think about a DRW and a Goldman Sachs, right?
• 11:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: We already have these agreements in place.
• 11:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: We have exactly our platform will recognize those agreements.
• 11:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And basically say that these two counter parties, they know each other, they've established trading relationship, they have this in-tradify world today.
• 11:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now they're going to move on to can't talk.
• 11:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to enable each other on a fully private network.
• 11:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you're not going to get a tree coming in from someone that you have not already agreed upon.
• 11:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've looked back at that, you know, traditional arrangement.
• 11:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: But now you're on chain.
• 11:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 11:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're on chain.
• 11:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've got the privacy and security of Canton and then you're moving into the digital settlement.
• 11:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 11:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: You agree to say, we're going to have to use USDC, USDT tokenized treasuries, whatever the acid is that you're going to utilize.
• 12:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: All of those are agreed upon by the counter parties.
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you're we're really not in the retail exchange.
• 12:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're not we're not we're not if we're not
• 12:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're not doing anything with perps ourselves at this point time, so we're not really running into, oh, you're introducing risk, right?
• 12:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a matter of really it's a matter of okay, you know, the value of this seems really clear to us and you know, how can we deploy it.
• 12:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what we're doing is we're looking at our pipeline of build.
• 12:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And right now, we're focused on a lot of this index product and we're partnering with some of the Oracle's that are doing the index tokenization services to pick up an MSCI index, a S&P index, footsie, whoever it may be, get that actually into the smart contracts.
• 12:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: We also actually read in the legal
• 12:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: the legal IP rights of the index itself.
• 12:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not allowing trades on where there's no correct license, extracurricular place and that obviously we get the trade on chain and we're doing the digital settlement.
• 13:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not we're not we're not really going down a path of more risky paths.
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not getting pushed back on that front.
• 13:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: love it.
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now tell me, you know, before we kind of get into current market dynamics, there's a platform you've mentioned a couple of times called Kanton.
• 13:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And many of our listeners, I'm sure know about Kanton, the CC token.
• 13:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's something that kind of took the world by storm last year and has a lot of momentum into this year.
• 13:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: It has, you know, some of the, if not the most,
• 13:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: National settlement volume for all the different real world assets and tokenized assets.
• 13:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So tell us a little bit about what Kanton is maybe why you chose that instead of something like Ethereum or Solana and then we want to get into some of the current market dynamics.
• 13:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, I mean, very, very clearly the the big factor there for us was was security and privacy.
• 13:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right.
• 13:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, in, in, in, in, in, triad firewalls, uh, you know, whether it's major banks, um, uh, ask managers as a known.
• 14:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Before you get to efficiency, before you get to anything, it's security privacy, or number one and opposite, right?
• 14:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
• 14:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, obviously, you know, in a lot of blockchain, they're open networks, right?
• 14:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is not an open network, it is a private network.
• 14:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, going back to what I was saying before with that full entitlement layer of, we know each other, we're entitling one another on this platform.
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that brings a lot of valuable security.
• 14:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Also, all these firms have major compliance requirements to know who we're going to be transacting with.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's all been done for regular traditional OTC swaps.
• 14:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we sort of carry that through.
• 14:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was the easily the highest value.
• 14:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's also where you sort of look at what's going on with Canton, it's where a lot of the major players are, they're a big sponsor here, they're a big sponsor here.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: but they're all so that's like where the where the stratified players are going right.
• 14:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I will say from a functionality standpoint, we are building it that we can we we could go to a different blockchain if clients wanted to use it, they wanted the onboard to swap through it, they wanted to do the digital wall connectivity.
• 15:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that's where we're open to that, but we're starting with Ganton for our first 10 full trades and we'll see what happens.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: makes it ton of sense.
• 15:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then kind of around out the conversation, you know, a lot of the listeners are, you know, folks who have been invested in, you know, Bitcoin Ethereum and several of the other coins and ever since October, I'm in the boat with you guys.
• 15:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's been tough.
• 15:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I know that when the asset prices are down, that's when institutions really lean in because, you know, you guys have been around the block.
• 15:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: You've lived through repressions and recessions.
• 15:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: You've lived through these market cycles.
• 15:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the folks who are trading crypto just by the nature of it being, you know, a newer asset class, they're young kids.
• 15:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're, you know, straight out of college.
• 15:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're in their first second or third job.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, from your view, and I'll, I'll give you my view, because I'm not sure if I want to see if I'm on the money or not, but like there's just been so much competition for capital, right?
• 15:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like tech investors have a limited amount of attention, limited amount of capital.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they've been chasing the hop-all of money, which has been AI.
• 16:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, a little bit of robotics, a little bit of this in that.
• 16:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: But like back in, you know, 2017, 2021, it was like crypto was really kind of the only, you know, investable, like, you know, really techy sort of thing, I guess, kind of.
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, why are market prices down so much, especially against a backdrop of like, you know, rates have been high for a while.
• 16:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, I'm not trying to dodge, but I'm not really hard for me to speculate on the sort of spy-demand cycle around crypto itself.
• 16:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think there's a lot of going on.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: You were talking about can't time coming before, so that I think there's a lot of migration of capital going on that you're seeing in the crypto space.
• 16:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: So well, obviously, the biggest story, you know, sort of the pullback on Bitcoin, but money has moved into different directions.
• 17:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think people
• 17:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's like millions of them now.
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, exactly.
• 17:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then also, I think that the other factor, I think is that there's a lot of more, there's a lot more adoption of stable, right?
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you look at USDC and USDT, let's trade it out of the right.
• 17:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, okay, like, this is a crypto, this is a digital asset.
• 17:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: That I'm not getting exposure to massive volatility.
• 17:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.
• 17:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I get very similar to what we're doing in OTC.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you get the benefit of having it on the chain.
• 17:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: You get the benefit of having a atomic settlement, but you're not riding the riding roller coaster of a true crypto asset in terms of the spied man dynamics of it.
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's no pegged to the arrow or pegged to the arrow whenever it is.
• 17:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's my view, but again, that's not a deer.
• 17:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna be a view, don't hold me to it.
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, you know, kind of enclosing, you know, bull market or bear market, you guys are going to be building.
• 17:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, do you prefer one of the other?
• 18:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you like that, you know, there's not a bunch of retail frenzy and that you guys could use put your heads down and build or you kind of excited for that next wave and how are you going to think about it.
• 18:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: volatility, I think volatility keeps eyes on the space, right?
• 18:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so we are in that period right now.
• 18:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's obviously like, as you mentioned, equity markets are strong, crypto markets have pulled off a bit.
• 18:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: But eyes are very, very clearly on the space.
• 18:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: And last week, you saw the, you know, sort of the series of trades that went through DTCC, you know, hitting canton for treasuries, and there was actually a
• 18:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: that were done in that space as well, too.
• 18:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: There was some CTF trades that went through from the equity side as well, that were digitized and also it can't done as well.
• 18:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's a much, much sense of broader adoption that we're going through right now.
• 18:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of building going on in terms of like node setup, digital wallet connectivity.
• 18:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: All those things are very exciting for us to see, because those are sort of the,
• 18:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, that gray elbow yellow wise turning to green lights in terms of like, okay, these guys are actually ready to move into these type of transactions for sure.
• 19:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: On that note, I saw last week Larry Fink was talking about he's like, over the CEO BlackRock next 12 months are gonna be big for digital assets he was saying.
• 19:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, all right.
• 19:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're starting to get little inklings and breadcrum trails from the men up top that you know guys the crypto market isn't dead forever Right, just dead for now, but it's gonna come back roaring We're starting to see some green shoots in the market.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So George really appreciate your time everybody check out Derivenx and Hope you enjoy the rest of your stay here in The North fork of New York.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks price happy to be here