Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 3 Tots Drowned Dead, Mommy Suspected Drunk, on Boardwalk

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3 Tots Drowned Dead, Mommy Suspected Drunk, on Boardwalk · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A nine one one call
0:15
Speaker 1: detailing three children unconscious on the beach. Where was mommy?
0:23
Speaker 1: A far distance away on the boardwalk. I'm Nancy Grace.
0:29
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
0:32
Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation in series XM one eleven. In
0:35
Speaker 1: case you were wondering, the three children are not unconscious,
0:40
Speaker 1: they're dead. Take a listen to this. Earlier this morning,
0:44
Speaker 1: at about one forty am, officers from the sixtieth Precincts
0:49
Speaker 1: responded to an apartment at thirty three twenty five Neptune
0:52
Speaker 1: Avenue in response to a nine one one call placed
0:56
Speaker 1: by a concerned family member who was at a different location,
1:00
Speaker 1: and the caller indicated that she was concerned that her
1:03
Speaker 1: family member may have harmed her three small children. Officers
1:07
Speaker 1: responded to that apartment. They received no answer to a
1:11
Speaker 1: knock on, and inside the building they were met by
1:13
Speaker 1: an individual who identified himself to be the father of
1:15
Speaker 1: one of the children, who expressed similar concerns and said
1:19
Speaker 1: that he believed that the woman and the children were
1:22
Speaker 1: on the boardwalk here in Coney Island. The officers began,
1:27
Speaker 1: along with other officers from the sixtieth precincts, a search
1:31
Speaker 1: for the woman and her children that involved canvassing the boardwalk,
1:35
Speaker 1: the beach, the streets of Coney Island, Coney Island Hospital,
1:39
Speaker 1: and her own apartment at thirty three twenty five Neptune Avenue,
1:42
Speaker 1: where the officers found the door unlocked. The door found
1:45
Speaker 1: the door unlocked. Frantic calls regarding the three children with
1:53
Speaker 1: me an all star pound to make sense of what
1:54
Speaker 1: we know right now for someone to go out to.
1:56
Speaker 1: A special guest joining us is Gabrielle van Rouge, National
2:00
Speaker 1: correspondent investigative reporter with The New York Post. You can
2:04
Speaker 1: find her at Gabrielle Fonrouge dot com. Gabrielle, thank you
2:07
Speaker 1: for being with us for those people that have never been.
2:10
Speaker 1: Could you describe the Coney Island boardwalk? Thanks for having
2:14
Speaker 1: me on, Nancy. And you know, the Coney Island boardwalk
2:17
Speaker 1: is what you think of when you hear the word
2:20
Speaker 1: boardwalk and beach. You know, right nearby we have Luna Park,
2:23
Speaker 1: we have an amusement park. You've got the boardwalk, you've
2:25
Speaker 1: got the restaurant, you go to bars, and then of
2:27
Speaker 1: course you're a the beach. You have you know, a
2:29
Speaker 1: decent beach for New York City. Tons of people are
2:32
Speaker 1: there every summer. You know, it's really just the kind
2:35
Speaker 1: of an idyllic place has everybody saying. Tom Hanks in Big,
2:40
Speaker 1: the movie Big, where he's a little boy and he
2:42
Speaker 1: wishes at a vending magician on Coney Island. He wishes
2:51
Speaker 1: on the boardwalk, he wishes to be quote Big, and
2:54
Speaker 1: then his wish comes through that night and the movie
2:57
Speaker 1: goes through and in the end, not to spoil it,
3:00
Speaker 1: to go back to the Coney Island boardwalk to find
3:03
Speaker 1: the It's about the size of a refrigerator, vending machine,
3:07
Speaker 1: with a magician, a sorcerer, and he is trying to
3:11
Speaker 1: become a kid again, a child again. That's the Coney
3:15
Speaker 1: Island board walk. Yeah, if it's beautiful, it's fun. There's restaurants,
3:20
Speaker 1: there's arcades, just slight. Gabrielle Fanrou's just told us, so
3:26
Speaker 1: what in the h eight double l is mommy doing
3:31
Speaker 1: on the boardwalk while her children are lying dead on
3:36
Speaker 1: the beach. Take a listen. You were earlier hearing our
3:41
Speaker 1: friends at the NYPD. That was Chief Kenneth Corey. Now
3:45
Speaker 1: take a listen to more. The search continued for approximately
3:48
Speaker 1: ninety minutes until the officers, in response to an additional
3:51
Speaker 1: nine one one call, were directed to Brighton sixth Brighton
3:56
Speaker 1: sixth Street and Regalman Boardwalk at that location, and the
4:00
Speaker 1: officers found a thirty year old female believed to be
4:03
Speaker 1: the mother of the three children. She was accompanied by
4:06
Speaker 1: other family members, but not the children. The search now
4:11
Speaker 1: intensified aviation units, harbor units, and additional canvases of the shoreline.
4:17
Speaker 1: Let me go straight out to Robert Crispin, joining US
4:19
Speaker 1: private investigator, former FED with the Federal Task Force for
4:24
Speaker 1: US State Department of Justice. D Ea, it goes on
4:27
Speaker 1: and on. Now he is with Crispin Special Investigations. Robert,
4:33
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us as always. You know,
4:35
Speaker 1: you think you've seen it all, right, That's what I
4:38
Speaker 1: always say. Well, I've seen it all. I've seen it all,
4:42
Speaker 1: and then another case comes along and we realize it sadly,
4:46
Speaker 1: we have not seen it all. Three dead children, three
4:53
Speaker 1: dead children, one of them seven, that's Zachary, father in
4:59
Speaker 1: the me, Liliana four and Oliver three months different. Father, Crispin.
5:08
Speaker 1: Three dead children. You ever seen that before? While I've
5:11
Speaker 1: seen two, Nancy, I saw one. I saw one go
5:14
Speaker 1: into the water, and the little the little brother try
5:18
Speaker 1: to go in after and savor and they both round.
5:20
Speaker 1: Let me rephrase my question, as I like to say
5:23
Speaker 1: in court when the witness does not respond the way
5:26
Speaker 1: I want them to. Have you ever seen a triple
5:29
Speaker 1: child homicide? I don't mean a natural disaster or an
5:33
Speaker 1: accidental drowning. Three children murdered, three children murdered, and where
5:41
Speaker 1: is mommy walking the boardwalk with the restaurants and the
5:46
Speaker 1: vending machines and the games. Cops immediately race to the
5:52
Speaker 1: home and they find the door open. And let me
5:55
Speaker 1: understand this. Gabriel fan Ru's jorder moved from the New
5:57
Speaker 1: York Post. The father, I guess it's the father of Oliver,
6:02
Speaker 1: possibly little Ona as well. He's just kind of wandering around.
6:06
Speaker 1: He goes, yeah, I'm really worried about them. Do I
6:09
Speaker 1: have that right? Yeah, that's about right. You know. The
6:12
Speaker 1: cops showed up, They went to the apartment door, nobody answered,
6:15
Speaker 1: the door was unlocked, and I guess they ran into
6:17
Speaker 1: the father, and we believe it's the father of Oliver.
6:20
Speaker 1: I guess somewhere else in the building. What he was
6:22
Speaker 1: doing is unclear, but he expressed similar concerns, and he
6:26
Speaker 1: told police, I think they're on Coney Island Beach. So
6:29
Speaker 1: he's worried. What's he doing wandering in the house. I mean,
6:32
Speaker 1: if I'm worried about my can I tell you what
6:34
Speaker 1: happened the other day, Gabrielle? The other day? Of course,
6:39
Speaker 1: I have every entrapment possible on my children's minds and computers,
6:44
Speaker 1: blah blah. And I got an alarm from Bart that
6:48
Speaker 1: John David, my beloved only son. The F word popped up,
6:54
Speaker 1: and I went, honey, I got in that car. I
6:58
Speaker 1: draw what I was doing, and got in the car
7:01
Speaker 1: and went to his school and pulled him out of class.
7:05
Speaker 1: I took him outside. So the reception, he was very
7:07
Speaker 1: prim and proper, could not hear me, dropped the F word,
7:11
Speaker 1: and I said, John David Lynch, did you write the
7:15
Speaker 1: F word anyway? No? His little face got totally white.
7:20
Speaker 1: Of course, he's six five of what I'm talking about.
7:23
Speaker 1: And I said, look at this, and I looked through
7:25
Speaker 1: it and somebody had sent him a rap song and
7:29
Speaker 1: the rapper said the F word. I'm like, okay, never mind.
7:35
Speaker 1: I was really just coming by to say hi, okay,
7:37
Speaker 1: come bye. Bye bye. So he had not done that,
7:40
Speaker 1: but I was worried. So I got in the car
7:44
Speaker 1: that minute. I did not delay and went over there.
7:49
Speaker 1: You know, So he's worried about the children's safety, not
7:54
Speaker 1: about a tween dropping the F bomb. He's worried about
7:58
Speaker 1: their safety, and he's just held back in the house.
8:01
Speaker 1: That's what we know. You're sure, yes, that's exactly what
8:04
Speaker 1: police told us. I mean, he was encountered him in
8:07
Speaker 1: the building. He expressed similar concerns as the other relatives
8:10
Speaker 1: who had called in earlier that morning, saying, you know,
8:13
Speaker 1: we have concerns that she may have harmed the children.
8:15
Speaker 1: He had those exact same concerns and told police that
8:18
Speaker 1: they're probably on the beach. Why he was walking around
8:21
Speaker 1: the building what he was doing is unclear. Okay, the children,
8:26
Speaker 1: my twins, they're not children anymore, Gabrielle Fanraige. Lucy's five three.
8:31
Speaker 1: She's taller than me. I just found out the other day.
8:33
Speaker 1: I'm not six three, he's six five. I still made
8:38
Speaker 1: them wear a little life jackets when we went out
8:42
Speaker 1: on the water, barely fit John David. My point is
8:49
Speaker 1: the father knows they're at the beach. He's quote worried
8:52
Speaker 1: about them, but he's kicked back in the house with
8:55
Speaker 1: the door wide open. Okay, you know, let me just
8:58
Speaker 1: move on. But Gabrielle found raised joining us in the
9:01
Speaker 1: New York Post who called nine one one to start with,
9:04
Speaker 1: do we know we believe it was a sister. It
9:07
Speaker 1: was definitely one of her relatives, and then also another relatives.
9:10
Speaker 1: There was multiple nine one one calls from multiple relatives
9:13
Speaker 1: throughout that morning and where were they? Were they all
9:15
Speaker 1: at the beach or were they somewhere else? Some of
9:17
Speaker 1: them were at different locations, and one of the relatives
9:21
Speaker 1: eventually found. Multiple relatives eventually found her on the beach
9:25
Speaker 1: and were there when cops arrived. So where they were
9:28
Speaker 1: when this all started is still part of that investigation.
9:31
Speaker 1: But they had called from different locations and some of
9:35
Speaker 1: them eventually wound up with her on the beach. Guys,
9:37
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Tracy Strayhan at NBC four.
9:40
Speaker 1: The kids were found unconscious near the water's edge by
9:44
Speaker 1: thirty fifth Street, and despite life saving efforts, were pronounced
9:47
Speaker 1: dead at Coney Island Hospital. Tragic news to the neighbors
9:52
Speaker 1: now grieving their loss. Not only people in the building
9:55
Speaker 1: everybody and Coney Islands talking abodied. You know when it
9:59
Speaker 1: involved kids, you know that's close to home. There is
10:04
Speaker 1: at least one or more officers right along the shoreline
10:07
Speaker 1: where those children were discovered. And we're also hearing reports
10:10
Speaker 1: that the children's mother is undergoing a psychological evaluation at
10:14
Speaker 1: a local hospital. No charges have been filed yet in
10:18
Speaker 1: this case. Okay, so mommy, instead of being a race
10:21
Speaker 1: to the police precinct, is sent for psychological evaluation. And
10:28
Speaker 1: I'm very curious why is that whenever a mother murders
10:32
Speaker 1: her children that she's sent for a mental exam. I
10:37
Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to our cut thirteen.
10:41
Speaker 1: This is Brandon Todd Fox four, Dallas Fort Worth. And
10:45
Speaker 1: you may be wondering why am I hearing from a
10:47
Speaker 1: reporter in Dallas Fort Worth, same exact scenario. Listen to this.
10:52
Speaker 1: The fame pianist arrived home Thursday morning to find his
10:55
Speaker 1: five year old and one and a half year old
10:57
Speaker 1: daughters dead. Is a strange wife stabbed inside their Benbrooke home.
11:02
Speaker 1: Sofia Sikankova is recovering from stab wounds. Hollandenko arrived to
11:08
Speaker 1: pick up the kids and found her. According to police
11:11
Speaker 1: in an extreme state of distress, then went back to
11:14
Speaker 1: a bedroom and found the bodies of both girls. He
11:18
Speaker 1: is not considered a suspect at this time. One of
11:20
Speaker 1: the responding officers immediately recommended that the wife undergo a
11:24
Speaker 1: mental evaluation when asked if her wounds were self inflicted,
11:29
Speaker 1: the stab wounds were made with a knife. But that's
11:31
Speaker 1: about as far as I can go with him. Time
11:45
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Let go to John W. Deal
11:51
Speaker 1: to bring him in. He's a high profile lawyer joining
11:53
Speaker 1: out of Winter Park, Florida, author of the method Proven
11:57
Speaker 1: Techniques for Winning jury trials? Is it John wdal dot com.
12:02
Speaker 1: He is representing Zenia Gonzales. You'll remember that name. She
12:08
Speaker 1: was commonly known as Zanni. Then nanny that's who taught
12:12
Speaker 1: mom Casey Anthony blamed for her missing child, Kelly whom
12:18
Speaker 1: taught mom killed. She blamed a person she's never met
12:22
Speaker 1: and claimed Zanni the nanny took the baby as a babysitter.
12:28
Speaker 1: Deal took on that case, John Deal, Thank you for
12:30
Speaker 1: being with us. Is it unusual how the mom murders
12:34
Speaker 1: the children and then she has a superficial knife wound
12:40
Speaker 1: and she gets mental evaluation while they get embalmed at
12:45
Speaker 1: the funeral home. Yeah, I mean, you've seen this a lot.
12:48
Speaker 1: In fact, I was thinking of it going way back
12:50
Speaker 1: to the Andrey Yeah, where the woman had drowned her
12:54
Speaker 1: children and then presented it in Sanny the un the fans.
12:57
Speaker 1: I think she was convicted but then retry and you know,
13:02
Speaker 1: found not guilty, very reasoned insanity. It seems sort of
13:05
Speaker 1: disproportionate as far as the evaluations. But if I was
13:09
Speaker 1: defending the case, I obviously would want to be raising that,
13:12
Speaker 1: and I'm sure the police want to rule out that
13:15
Speaker 1: potential defense is why they're going in and getting her
13:17
Speaker 1: evaluated right away. Yeah. You know, Andrew Yates has a
13:20
Speaker 1: whole nother ken of worms who very carefully plotted out
13:24
Speaker 1: the killing of her children. Waited for her husband to
13:26
Speaker 1: leave to go to work, a lot to all the doors,
13:29
Speaker 1: and then took one child at a time, I believe,
13:32
Speaker 1: starting with the baby, because the oldest child would understand
13:38
Speaker 1: what was going I can't remember her order of how
13:40
Speaker 1: she killed them, but there was a reason. Then she
13:43
Speaker 1: dried them off and laid them on the bed called
13:46
Speaker 1: lineman when I killed my children. Yeah, so that's a
13:51
Speaker 1: stark dichotomy, John Deal, because every time a mom murders
13:57
Speaker 1: her children, we just not me, but others naturally the same.
14:02
Speaker 1: She must be crazy? Correct? Correct? I do not agree
14:06
Speaker 1: with that, And in this case, isn't it true? Gabrielle
14:10
Speaker 1: van Rouge joining us a New York Post that she
14:14
Speaker 1: actually called the mom in this case, actually called her
14:18
Speaker 1: family and indicated she intended to harm the children. Beforehand,
14:24
Speaker 1: she had made comments to family that left them concerned
14:27
Speaker 1: that she would harm the children. What her exact statements
14:30
Speaker 1: were and if she expressed that intent, I still think
14:33
Speaker 1: it's part of that investigation. But as soon as you
14:36
Speaker 1: know the deed had been done, she did it. Consess
14:38
Speaker 1: to relatives, I drowned all three kids. That's what we
14:41
Speaker 1: have from our law enforce and sources at the NYPD.
14:44
Speaker 1: You know, to you doctor Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, well known
14:48
Speaker 1: psychiatrists joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, She said,
14:51
Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com. One of her expertise is
14:57
Speaker 1: postponed depression. You know, doctor Angie, I understand about depression.
15:04
Speaker 1: I don't understand as much as you do, of course,
15:07
Speaker 1: but that is not insanity. Depression is not insanity under
15:14
Speaker 1: the law. Insanity under the law, which is based on
15:18
Speaker 1: the quote old McNaughton rule, which is common law, which
15:22
Speaker 1: is case law not codified, such as a statute that
15:25
Speaker 1: we brought over from England with us. Okay, the Anglo
15:31
Speaker 1: Saxon jurisprudence on which our legal system is founded. The
15:38
Speaker 1: old McNaughton rule, also known as the insanity defense, is
15:44
Speaker 1: that you do not know right from wrong at the
15:47
Speaker 1: time of the incident. I don't see how depression makes
15:53
Speaker 1: you unaware of what is happening when you drown your children,
15:57
Speaker 1: your three children, and when they find her hold on.
16:01
Speaker 1: Isn't it true, Gabrielle van Rouge, that she was wet,
16:05
Speaker 1: her clothes and body were wet, the children were soaking wet,
16:09
Speaker 1: they were drowned. Isn't that true? She was found when
16:13
Speaker 1: she was found by police, she was soaking wet, their
16:15
Speaker 1: foot in a bathrobe, and the children were found along
16:18
Speaker 1: the shoreline. So, dodger Angie, are you arguing to me
16:22
Speaker 1: that depression makes you what blackout and you don't know
16:26
Speaker 1: what you're doing? Now? I will say, Nancy, there are
16:29
Speaker 1: time you can actually become psychotic. If your depression is
16:34
Speaker 1: bad enough, you can become psychotic, whether or not we
16:39
Speaker 1: call this crazy. I didn't ask you that I know
16:42
Speaker 1: you're an MD. I'm just a JD. I'm not asking you,
16:45
Speaker 1: doctor Angela Arnold, to interpret the law. I'm asking you.
16:49
Speaker 1: Are you telling me that you can be so depressed
16:52
Speaker 1: you don't know you're murdering someone? Your depression can get
16:55
Speaker 1: so bad that, yes, you can become psychotic and out
16:59
Speaker 1: of your mind and and not no reality from non reality. Yes,
17:07
Speaker 1: I don't really know what you just said in the
17:09
Speaker 1: sense that I don't know that that was responsive to
17:11
Speaker 1: my question. So, Dancy, what I'm saying is, don't tell
17:14
Speaker 1: a bunch of psycho babble at me. Okay, just please,
17:16
Speaker 1: if you could just answer yes, No, are you telling
17:19
Speaker 1: me you can be so depressed you have no idea
17:22
Speaker 1: what you're doing? Yes? What do you make of the
17:25
Speaker 1: fact she told her family beforehand she was going to
17:27
Speaker 1: hurt the children, she drowned them dead, and then she
17:30
Speaker 1: told her family I drowned the kids, So she wasn't
17:33
Speaker 1: out of her mind when she did it. She knew
17:35
Speaker 1: what she was doing. That's what I make of that.
17:37
Speaker 1: Did you just say she knew what she was doing. Yes, okay,
17:41
Speaker 1: I'm surprised you would admit to that, because otherwise you
17:46
Speaker 1: would be stuck in the position I was just waiting.
17:49
Speaker 1: I was spinning my web, waiting for you to fly
17:51
Speaker 1: into it. You would be in a position of arguing
17:54
Speaker 1: temporary insanity, which nobody really believes, because I know that
17:59
Speaker 1: temporary any means I'm perfectly sane at this moment, at
18:02
Speaker 1: this exact moment. And then I see this ballpoint pen,
18:05
Speaker 1: I go crazy and leap over all the equipment in
18:09
Speaker 1: the studio and stab Jackie in the net and she dies,
18:13
Speaker 1: and then I jumped back in my seat and continue
18:17
Speaker 1: with the program. I guess I would have to argue
18:20
Speaker 1: in that ten minute exchange that it took me ten
18:25
Speaker 1: minutes to stab her dead with this pen. I was insane,
18:29
Speaker 1: and then suddenly I came back to myself. I was
18:31
Speaker 1: no longer insane, because let me get this right, Gabrielle Finers,
18:36
Speaker 1: just go with me on this. She's sane enough to
18:39
Speaker 1: boo boo boo boo boo boo boo, Hi, I'm going
18:42
Speaker 1: to hurt the children, kills the children, and then says
18:47
Speaker 1: I killed my children. She goes to a phone calls home, calls,
18:52
Speaker 1: somebody says she's going to hurt the children. She murders
18:56
Speaker 1: the children, and then she is back to herself again
19:00
Speaker 1: and says, I just killed the children. You know. The
19:02
Speaker 1: exact comments that she made to family are unclear, you know,
19:06
Speaker 1: but they were left with the impression that she would
19:09
Speaker 1: harm them. Whether or not she actually said I had
19:12
Speaker 1: plans to harm them is still part of the investigation.
19:15
Speaker 1: I have not heard anything about her specific remarks. But
19:19
Speaker 1: they were left concerned, that's for sure. Whatever she said
19:22
Speaker 1: or however she appeared, they were worried that she was
19:25
Speaker 1: going to hurt them. But afterwards she absolutely confessed. That
19:29
Speaker 1: is a subtle but important distinction, and I'm glad you
19:32
Speaker 1: made it, because for all we know, we don't know
19:34
Speaker 1: her exact wording. We know later she said I kill
19:37
Speaker 1: the children, two words to that effect, but before she
19:41
Speaker 1: may have says something like I can't take these children anymore.
19:44
Speaker 1: They gotta go. Something like that, not the specific words
19:49
Speaker 1: I'm going to kill the children, but enough to make
19:52
Speaker 1: the family concerned she was going to harm them. What
19:56
Speaker 1: really amazes me, as in everybody just did nothing, nothing,
20:02
Speaker 1: and now the children are dead. I want you to
20:06
Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut eight This is Our
20:10
Speaker 1: Friend at NBC. Four NYPD officers stood alone the Coney
20:14
Speaker 1: Island shoreline at sunrise, the place where three young children
20:19
Speaker 1: were found unresponsive and later pronounced dead. The person being
20:23
Speaker 1: questioned about the crime their mother, who was found shoeless
20:26
Speaker 1: and roaming the boardwalk about two miles away. The way
20:30
Speaker 1: it happens sad. It's really sad because she could have
20:33
Speaker 1: got help, you know, maybe she was in too strong
20:37
Speaker 1: to get the help. About four forty two this morning,
20:41
Speaker 1: the officers discovered three children, a seventy year old male,
20:49
Speaker 1: a four year old female, and another female was approximately
20:53
Speaker 1: three and a half months old on the shoreline here
20:57
Speaker 1: at the water's edge at West thirty fifth Street in
21:00
Speaker 1: Coney Island. The officers immediately initiated life saving measures, including
21:05
Speaker 1: CPR on the children, and they were rushed to Coney
21:08
Speaker 1: Island Hospital, where they were regrettably pronounced de ceased. Just
21:12
Speaker 1: thinking about one of the old children, in particular, Zachary,
21:15
Speaker 1: at age seven, His football coach had begged the mom
21:20
Speaker 1: for Zachary to come back to football, and she wouldn't
21:24
Speaker 1: let him, and he could go to football practice after
21:30
Speaker 1: school it was either three or four days a week,
21:32
Speaker 1: and then they would get him supper. I guess they
21:37
Speaker 1: all had supper there at football practice something like that,
21:41
Speaker 1: and he loved it so much, but the mom said no,
21:46
Speaker 1: he could no longer play football or have dinner with
21:49
Speaker 1: the team. And they just the little team got together
21:54
Speaker 1: when they found out about Zachary's mother killing him and
21:58
Speaker 1: released balloons into the air and all screened up to
22:01
Speaker 1: the clouds by Zachary, we miss you. I'm just thinking,
22:06
Speaker 1: you know my children at that age seven, which is
22:14
Speaker 1: so precious and wonderful, much less you know the other
22:18
Speaker 1: two children you have, Oliver just three months old, Liliana
22:24
Speaker 1: four being killed, murdered by the one person that is
22:31
Speaker 1: supposed to protect you, but of course not in this case.
22:35
Speaker 1: Mommy was two miles away on the boardwalk when their
22:39
Speaker 1: bodies were found. I want to go straight out to
22:41
Speaker 1: Katherine Maloney. Doctor Katherine Maloney, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County,
22:47
Speaker 1: That's Buffalo. You can find her at Nicols City Forensics
22:51
Speaker 1: dot com. Doctor Maloney, thank you for being with us.
22:55
Speaker 1: One thing I've always hated is the thought, I mean,
22:58
Speaker 1: we're all gonna die. There's really not usedn't even thinking
23:00
Speaker 1: about it. It's going to happen. But a lot of
23:05
Speaker 1: people say the one way I wouldn't want to die
23:07
Speaker 1: is and for me, it's drowning. I'm just trying to
23:11
Speaker 1: imagine what these children went through. I mean, they very
23:15
Speaker 1: likely put up a struggle with their own mom. I
23:18
Speaker 1: don't know if they realized what was going on. I
23:21
Speaker 1: mean and Andrea Yates, she had a tiny little baby
23:24
Speaker 1: infant I think was named Mary, who even as a
23:30
Speaker 1: tiny baby, put up a struggle and you could see
23:34
Speaker 1: bruises all over her body where Andrea Yates held her
23:37
Speaker 1: down forcibly in the water to drown her. What actually
23:41
Speaker 1: happens to a human body when they are drowned, I mean,
23:46
Speaker 1: they know what's happening. Well, thank you for having me, Nancy.
23:50
Speaker 1: With the drowning. Generally, what will happen is that water
23:55
Speaker 1: will fill the airway, preventing air from getting into the
23:59
Speaker 1: person can't breathe, and then when they can't breathe, eventually
24:03
Speaker 1: the oxygen in their blood will be depleted and then
24:06
Speaker 1: their brain will suffer irreversible damage. It's a relatively even
24:12
Speaker 1: warm water, it's a relatively longer process. It would probably
24:16
Speaker 1: take several minutes while the person is still conscious, kind
24:19
Speaker 1: of like with a choking so that the death would
24:24
Speaker 1: be relatively prolonged. Just thinking about it not being anything
24:28
Speaker 1: like getting shot, where you bam, the moment the bullet
24:31
Speaker 1: hits you, it's over, and I don't know what you
24:34
Speaker 1: really even feel if you're like prest a shot in
24:38
Speaker 1: the head, or you're hung the moment, well, not really hung.
24:44
Speaker 1: Let's go with a bullet. But in a drowning case,
24:48
Speaker 1: they knew what was happening to them. They very likely struggled,
24:52
Speaker 1: and they knew it was Mommy. Would you agree with that, Catherine.
24:57
Speaker 1: I think they definitely would have been aware of what
24:59
Speaker 1: was going on. I'm sure it must have been very
25:01
Speaker 1: confusing in a case like that. What kind of CPR
25:04
Speaker 1: would have been administered? So the CPR on the beach,
25:06
Speaker 1: the idea is that you just want to get the
25:08
Speaker 1: heart pumping again and then try to get the water
25:10
Speaker 1: out of the airway. So that's I'm sure what officers
25:15
Speaker 1: were doing at the scene as they called nine on
25:17
Speaker 1: one to get an ambulance to respond all the talk.
25:19
Speaker 1: Gabrielle fanroge A regarding Mommy possibly being depressed isn't it
25:26
Speaker 1: true when police arrived they thought she was drunk. Yes,
25:31
Speaker 1: that's true. And also relatives when they originally called nine
25:35
Speaker 1: on one, they were they were concerned that she might
25:37
Speaker 1: be under the influence of alcohol or drugs. And when
25:39
Speaker 1: Copps founder, she did appear to be intoxicated, and she
25:43
Speaker 1: was certainly in a daze. She wasn't communicating, she was
25:47
Speaker 1: kind of just kind of out out to launch really
25:50
Speaker 1: for lunch, for a better way. What are you going
25:52
Speaker 1: to do with that attorney, high profile lawyer John W.
25:55
Speaker 1: Deal joining us out of Winter Park. Let's say she's
25:57
Speaker 1: your client. You're going to go with d deep depression,
26:01
Speaker 1: and suddenly you find out the cop says she's reeked
26:05
Speaker 1: of alcohol. Yeah, that's that's gonna be a major problem.
26:08
Speaker 1: I think probably I would try to develop like a
26:11
Speaker 1: schizophrenia type of situation, only because the family had said
26:15
Speaker 1: that she had gone off the grid and then acting radically,
26:17
Speaker 1: well what wait, wait, wait wait, because I learned something
26:22
Speaker 1: completely different going off the grid. Yes, she dumped all
26:26
Speaker 1: her social media, she wouldn't take a lot of her
26:28
Speaker 1: relatives calls, but acting erratically. One relatives said, yeah, she
26:33
Speaker 1: liked a party. I knew she liked to, you know,
26:36
Speaker 1: drink a quote a little bit and be with different guys.
26:41
Speaker 1: But I never thought she was crazy. I never thought
26:44
Speaker 1: she'd murder her children. Is that what you mean by
26:47
Speaker 1: acting erratically? That's what I would present obviously, that this
26:51
Speaker 1: would all be whatever mental disease or is. I mean,
26:54
Speaker 1: you got to play the cards as you find them.
26:57
Speaker 1: But it's the voluntary intoxication is probably ablematic, Yeah, because
27:01
Speaker 1: that's not a defense. Absolutely not. No, everybody in the
27:04
Speaker 1: Fulton County Courthouse would be dancing down Main Street right
27:07
Speaker 1: now because it all say I was drunk, I was drowned.
27:12
Speaker 1: Let me out of here. You have to prove that
27:15
Speaker 1: it's the mental disease or defect that you have makes
27:17
Speaker 1: it so you can appreciate right and wrong. But if
27:21
Speaker 1: somebody is drinking and that's why they say they can't
27:23
Speaker 1: appreciate what was going on, that is not a defense.
27:26
Speaker 1: So it's going to be a difficult challenge for a
27:28
Speaker 1: defense attorney to try to reconcile the voluntary intoxication with
27:33
Speaker 1: whatever insanity defense they try to put together. I mean,
27:36
Speaker 1: you know what about that, doctor Angie Arnold, Because your
27:39
Speaker 1: claim is psychosis stemming from postpartum depression. And I could
27:46
Speaker 1: see postpartum depression because the oliver is just three months old.
27:50
Speaker 1: But when cops say your days and they think you're drunk,
27:55
Speaker 1: there's a big difference in being days from depression or
27:58
Speaker 1: psychotic break and being run. That's right. And you know
28:01
Speaker 1: what that's called, Nancy, That's called medicating yourself. She was
28:05
Speaker 1: self medicating with the alcohol. I can promise you I
28:07
Speaker 1: don't know that that's what I would call it. Guys,
28:09
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Elijah Westbrook at CBS.
28:13
Speaker 1: Two authorities say when she was found her clothes were
28:16
Speaker 1: soaked and she was barefoot. Her statements to police eventually
28:19
Speaker 1: led them to believe she had something to do with
28:21
Speaker 1: the drowning. More than an hour later, the kids were
28:24
Speaker 1: found just off A thirty fifth Street in the water, unconscious.
28:27
Speaker 1: The kids were rushed to Coney Island Hospital, where they
28:30
Speaker 1: could not be saved. We did go ahead and ask
28:32
Speaker 1: police if there was any sort of history between the
28:35
Speaker 1: family and Child Protective Services, and as we speak, that
28:38
Speaker 1: is being looked into. For now charges or pending against
28:42
Speaker 1: the mother. To Robert Crispin, private, an investigator with Christmas
28:45
Speaker 1: Special investiations. Barefoot, bathrobe wet sounds like she kicked her
28:52
Speaker 1: shoes off to go in the water kill her three children,
28:56
Speaker 1: came out and put on a bathrobe. It does, and
28:58
Speaker 1: let me tell you it. You know, we're talking all
29:00
Speaker 1: those legal mumble jumbo. Let's talk about the actual homicide
29:04
Speaker 1: of three kids and her being mentally evaluated. And I
29:07
Speaker 1: think what they mean by the mentally evaluated they took
29:11
Speaker 1: her down. You know, that location is just littered with
29:15
Speaker 1: video cameras, and you know, they may already have a
29:19
Speaker 1: very good handle on what happened, and this whole thing
29:21
Speaker 1: may be caught on tape, which I'm sure probably is,
29:26
Speaker 1: and I think they probably what they did in Layman's
29:29
Speaker 1: turn is data Marchment actor or the banker actor, and
29:32
Speaker 1: I think that's where they're saying they did their mental evaluation.
29:35
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking that they got the confession or they
29:39
Speaker 1: got the spontaneous utterance. I mean, I don't know to
29:42
Speaker 1: the family member. Maybe she spontaneously uttered something to law
29:45
Speaker 1: enforcement we don't know about. But my take is they
29:49
Speaker 1: either saw the totality of what she did, it's caught
29:53
Speaker 1: on tape, and they Marchment actor because of either the
29:56
Speaker 1: alcohol or the drugs clearly a danger to herself, her others,
30:01
Speaker 1: or they baker acted her. And I think you're going
30:03
Speaker 1: to find out as time goes on. This is what's
30:05
Speaker 1: going to unfold. And the worst part about all this
30:07
Speaker 1: is this goes back to see something, say something so
30:10
Speaker 1: many times. So many of these tragedies can be avoided
30:14
Speaker 1: because when you go out and you interview these witnesses,
30:17
Speaker 1: they tell you things that they knew, they heard the statements,
30:21
Speaker 1: but they did nothing. You know why, because people just
30:23
Speaker 1: don't want to get involved anymore. They just don't. And
30:26
Speaker 1: it's sad. It's sad. And let me tell you, do
30:29
Speaker 1: you think that these kids knew what was going on? Absolutely?
30:32
Speaker 1: The last breath was taken out of them with the
30:35
Speaker 1: most horrific view of their mother as she plunged them
30:39
Speaker 1: into the water and killed them. If that's what she did, horrific,
30:43
Speaker 1: I will say I would like to jump in and
30:45
Speaker 1: say something. I don't think that we can totally blame
30:49
Speaker 1: other people for not saying something and doing something. As
30:52
Speaker 1: it said, As it said in one of the pieces
30:55
Speaker 1: about her, she had totally gone off the grid and
30:58
Speaker 1: wasn't really communicating with her family and I will tell y'all.
31:01
Speaker 1: Oftentimes that is what people will do when they are
31:07
Speaker 1: you know what. They don't want to talk you about
31:08
Speaker 1: it anymore, They don't want to get any help, they
31:10
Speaker 1: don't want to take any medicine. And it is so
31:13
Speaker 1: hard to go out to disagree with that, Nancy completely.
31:17
Speaker 1: You know what, I wouldn't disagree with me because I
31:20
Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about, because I deal with this
31:23
Speaker 1: every day. Okay, well, okay, I've also worked in thomicide.
31:26
Speaker 1: Is this deal or is this crispin crispin? Okay, hold
31:30
Speaker 1: on a second, So, doctor Angie Arnold, you say you
31:33
Speaker 1: deal with this every day. So when was the last
31:34
Speaker 1: time you prosecuted a tip of homicide? I'm really interested. Well,
31:37
Speaker 1: here's the thing there. Do you want to know when
31:41
Speaker 1: the last time was I had to talk to a
31:42
Speaker 1: police officer because they were we were trying to get
31:44
Speaker 1: somebody ten thirteen or Baker acted as he called it.
31:48
Speaker 1: I want to know the last time a tip a
31:52
Speaker 1: week ago you went to the court and prosecuted. But okay,
31:57
Speaker 1: so when you say I've handled this, no, actually you haven't.
32:01
Speaker 1: You have haddled cases where there is a legitimate mental
32:05
Speaker 1: illness that is your expertise. And this woman may be
32:09
Speaker 1: mentally ill. And if so, okay, you know what, try
32:15
Speaker 1: to call the police on somebody. Get on. I'm still
32:18
Speaker 1: hearing it. Okay, thank you your expertise, doctor Angela Arnold.
32:23
Speaker 1: And yes, I know you are a renowned psychiatrist. You
32:27
Speaker 1: know more about the human psyche than I could ever know.
32:30
Speaker 1: You know more in one digit about it than I know.
32:34
Speaker 1: I do, however, know about child homicide. If this woman
32:41
Speaker 1: is metally ill, that I want her in a hospital
32:44
Speaker 1: where she can be treated. If she was drunk and
32:49
Speaker 1: tired of raising her children, I want her to go
32:52
Speaker 1: to jail the rest of her life at the very
32:55
Speaker 1: least what I am concerned. Also Robert Crispin, Doctor Angela
33:00
Speaker 1: Arnold also said that you can't totally blame the people
33:05
Speaker 1: around her. I also agree with that. However, what about
33:09
Speaker 1: the people that lived with her, the people that feared
33:14
Speaker 1: for the children taking Listen to our cut one. This
33:18
Speaker 1: is Tracy Strayhan NBC four. Police say a worried family
33:22
Speaker 1: member called nine one one just after one thirty this morning,
33:26
Speaker 1: fearful that the thirty year old mother could have harmed
33:28
Speaker 1: the kids. A seven year old boy, four year old
33:31
Speaker 1: girl and a boy just over three months old. But
33:35
Speaker 1: when officers arrived at the Sea Rios houses on Neptune Avenue,
33:39
Speaker 1: no one answered the door and it was unlocked. A
33:41
Speaker 1: man who claimed to be the father of one of
33:43
Speaker 1: the children later surfaced. They were met by an individual
33:47
Speaker 1: who identified himself to be the father of one of
33:49
Speaker 1: the children, who expressed similar concerns and said that he
33:52
Speaker 1: believed that the woman and the children were on the
33:55
Speaker 1: boardwalk here in Coney Islands Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
34:17
Speaker 1: So they've got the sister worried about the children's welfare,
34:20
Speaker 1: You've got the father of the children worried about their welfare.
34:23
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut twenty five. This is
34:26
Speaker 1: Kevin ricon CBS two. Folks here in this community, they're
34:29
Speaker 1: devastated to hear about what happened. I spoke with a
34:32
Speaker 1: number of neighbors who knew these kids and who knew
34:35
Speaker 1: their mother. They say, by all accounts, it felt like
34:38
Speaker 1: she was trying her best, which is why it's all
34:40
Speaker 1: the more shocking to know that those kids are gone.
34:43
Speaker 1: Early Monday morning, police embarked on the ninety minute long
34:46
Speaker 1: frantic search for three kids along the shoreline. They got
34:50
Speaker 1: a call from a concerned relative who believed the children
34:52
Speaker 1: were in danger. Cops found the mother, thirty year old
34:55
Speaker 1: Aaron Murdy, barefoot and soaking way. Her kids were eventually
34:59
Speaker 1: discovered for two miles away on the beach at West
35:02
Speaker 1: thirty fifth Street in Coney Island. Many neighbors told me
35:06
Speaker 1: there were warning signs. This man says the kids were
35:09
Speaker 1: left with family for a bit and wonders why they
35:11
Speaker 1: came back. Now I can see you just snap because
35:15
Speaker 1: we all have problems. Police tell us that the mother
35:17
Speaker 1: called family to say she intended to hurt the kids
35:21
Speaker 1: and didn't say why. Okay, let me clear something up.
35:25
Speaker 1: Can we unmute? Doctor Angela Arnold? And I want to
35:31
Speaker 1: bring in John Deal on this, the lawyer, John Deal.
35:35
Speaker 1: There's no such thing as snap. That's true under the law.
35:39
Speaker 1: That's not real. Now. I know there was a program
35:42
Speaker 1: called Snap, and they always featured women that would kill somebody,
35:48
Speaker 1: and they quote, just snap. That's not a defense under
35:51
Speaker 1: the law. No, No, it's not. I mean getting set up,
35:53
Speaker 1: having a hard time, getting frustrated, not able to think
35:57
Speaker 1: ends me. That's absolutely not a mentalism for deep. You'd
36:00
Speaker 1: have to show that there was some mental issue going
36:03
Speaker 1: on that made it so she couldn't appreciate what she
36:06
Speaker 1: was doing. And I think that's really going to be
36:08
Speaker 1: the whole question in the case. I want you to
36:09
Speaker 1: take a listener, cut twenty one, and I want to
36:12
Speaker 1: hear from doctor Angie Arnold on this This is Ed
36:15
Speaker 1: Browley sixty minutes. It was the most horrifying story of
36:19
Speaker 1: the year. Five children from a middle class family in Houston,
36:22
Speaker 1: Texas murdered drowned one after the other in the bathtub
36:26
Speaker 1: of their home. The oldest was seven, the youngest six months.
36:30
Speaker 1: The confessed killer was their mother, Andrea Yates. Or cases
36:34
Speaker 1: evoked both rage and sympathy across the country. Why did
36:38
Speaker 1: she do it? No one disputes that she suffered from
36:41
Speaker 1: bouts of postpartum depression with psychosis, a serious mental illness
36:46
Speaker 1: brought on by childbirth and the demands of parenting. Doctor
36:49
Speaker 1: Angie Arnold, how would or would you differentiate this case
36:53
Speaker 1: from that case. I know a lot about the Andrea
36:58
Speaker 1: Yates case, and I don't know much, but I don't
37:01
Speaker 1: know anything about the background of the woman who just
37:03
Speaker 1: recently drowned her three children. What do you make of
37:06
Speaker 1: the claim in Yates that she was suffering about supposed
37:10
Speaker 1: part of depression. That's true, and I will also let
37:13
Speaker 1: you know that she was not being treated properly at all.
37:18
Speaker 1: I remember the husband got really mad when I asked,
37:22
Speaker 1: why did you move the whole family into a converted
37:26
Speaker 1: school bus? Because she was trying to raise all these
37:30
Speaker 1: children living in a bus. That's not all You've got
37:35
Speaker 1: that case where I believe that Yates did have a
37:40
Speaker 1: mental defect. But then you have the case of Julie Schinneker.
37:46
Speaker 1: Take a list an hour cut twenty two. This is
37:49
Speaker 1: how she looked hours after being arrested for shooting her
37:52
Speaker 1: own children to death, both thirteen year old Bow and
37:56
Speaker 1: sixteen year old Calyx. We're star athletes and star students,
38:00
Speaker 1: and we now know. It was just a few months
38:02
Speaker 1: ago when Calix filed a police report saying her mother
38:06
Speaker 1: slapped and hit her in the face and even busted
38:08
Speaker 1: her lip, but that case was later closed, even though
38:11
Speaker 1: reports show Shenneker admitted to hitting her daughter because she
38:15
Speaker 1: talked back. It's the same reason she told police she
38:19
Speaker 1: wanted her children dead, a reason many find as sick
38:22
Speaker 1: as their murders. In that case, police discovered a detailed
38:27
Speaker 1: plan to murder the children in riding, purchasing a gun
38:32
Speaker 1: far in advance, using that gun the day of the murderers.
38:36
Speaker 1: Police also found her drinking, as in this case, we
38:42
Speaker 1: believe the mom had been drinking. Anna Scheneker sitting out
38:46
Speaker 1: by the water in a bathrobe to Gabrielle fawn Roue's
38:52
Speaker 1: national correspondent, investigative reporter with the New York Post, what
38:58
Speaker 1: happens now? So, you know, a couple of things. One,
39:01
Speaker 1: the NYPD has uncovered surveillance footage that shows her entering
39:07
Speaker 1: the beach area with her three children and then leaving
39:09
Speaker 1: without them. So we've got that going on. And you know,
39:13
Speaker 1: with this psych evaluation that she underwent. You know, in
39:15
Speaker 1: New York, we don't have the Baker Act, we don't
39:18
Speaker 1: have the March for An Act, we don't have anything
39:19
Speaker 1: like that. And this wasn't a court ordered psychiatric evaluation.
39:23
Speaker 1: If you're in a state like New York, and if
39:26
Speaker 1: you're locked up at a precinct at the NYPD, all
39:29
Speaker 1: you have to say is you know, I want to
39:31
Speaker 1: hurt myself or scratch yourself on your arm and they're
39:33
Speaker 1: going to ship you off to the psych ward. You know,
39:35
Speaker 1: that's just basically how it goes. So it could have
39:37
Speaker 1: been a comment she made, could have been an action
39:40
Speaker 1: she did against herself. So she's been to underdrage the
39:42
Speaker 1: psychiatric evaluation. And right now the NYPD is canvassing for
39:47
Speaker 1: surveillance footage. They already have some of it. Our law
39:49
Speaker 1: enforcement sources tell us they're going to get more. They're
39:52
Speaker 1: interviewing witnesses, and they're going to try to build a case.
39:56
Speaker 1: You know, right now, I believe she's considered a person
39:58
Speaker 1: of interest in them in the kid's death. We're going
40:02
Speaker 1: to need to get an autopsy as well. Pops won't
40:05
Speaker 1: usually drop charges until the vis medical examiner finishes their exam,
40:10
Speaker 1: determines the exact cause of death. You know, it confirms
40:13
Speaker 1: that it is in fact a homicide and death committed
40:15
Speaker 1: or caused by another person, and then after that, you know,
40:18
Speaker 1: we're probably going to see some pretty fifth charges if
40:21
Speaker 1: the investigation leads that way. It's very hard for a
40:25
Speaker 1: lay person, a non medical caregiver to understand a mother
40:33
Speaker 1: killing her own children. The only way many people can
40:42
Speaker 1: grapple with that is to believe the mother must be insane,
40:49
Speaker 1: because is there anything strong or on earth than a
40:54
Speaker 1: mother's love for her children. I don't think that there is.
41:00
Speaker 1: This woman is mentally ill. She needs to be away
41:05
Speaker 1: from a general population. In a jail, they would just
41:09
Speaker 1: abuse and take advantage of her. She needs to be
41:13
Speaker 1: in a mental facility where she can be helped. If not,
41:20
Speaker 1: God have mercy on your soul. Nancy Grace CRN's story,
41:24
Speaker 1: signing off goodbyes