Latest / The Future of Canadian Curling / Episode 3: The Truth We've Been Avoiding
Transcript
- Kyle Jahns (00:05) I'm Kyle Jahns, and today we are talking about changing ice conditions with Curling Canada CEO Nolan Thiessen on the Future of Canadian Curling podcast. So picture this: we're in the sixth end, and we've been curling really well so far. You got a good feeling for kicking out of the hack, you're controlling your weight, the release feels crisp, but you miss. You didn't change your preparation, you didn't change your delivery; it was something external. In this case, the ice conditions changed. We as curlers we know we can't control those ice conditions, but we can adapt. A good curling team, they make those adjustments when necessary, whether that's changing the ice or throwing more weight. Now, in this analogy, a sports system can also face external factors beyond its control, and instead of doing the same things and expecting different results, it too has to adapt to these changing metaphorical ice conditions so that we stop hogging the rock and owing a Round of drinks in the lounge after the game. So, Nolan, the ice conditions of our sports system are changing, and we'll get into that. But if you've read chapter three of the Future of Canadian Curling series, which if you haven't yet, please do check it out, curling.ca slash future of curling. You are probably dying to know, just like me. Nolan, did you really hog a rock during a broadcast TSN game? And did Vic Router shame you when they came back from break? Nolan Thiessen (01:34) Yes, I d I actually I I mean I absolutely did. I absolutely have have hogged s have hogged rocks. I also remember one where Carter burnt it. Yeah, I'm frying you here, Carter. Carter burnt it, and I remember getting a message from Blake after because Linda had said, Well, Nolan had a red light at the hog line. And Blake texted me, and he said, You red-lighted. And I, Blake, you curled with me for five years. You know, I barely I let it go like top twelve. Like, that was Carter; Carter burnt it. And he said, Yeah, no. " But yeah, I have definitely had the hogged rock situation and the other one that not a lot of people know of, but the fifth-end mop. And then, as a lead coming out for the first draw, and it's like a half a second faster, you go to throw that guard to start the sixth end and all of a sudden you realize that is going to be back twelve. So I've had Kyle Jahns (02:33) Mm-hmm. Nolan Thiessen (02:34) That happened before too. Kyle Jahns (02:36) Well, you use this analogy to introduce a much bigger idea: strength in our sport isn't necessarily the same as sustainability. So what kind of made you feel like this was a Canadian curling truth that we needed to hear right now at this time? Nolan Thiessen (02:56) I think it kind of started right when I first started working in curling, and there were so many conversations about playdowns and playdown processes and all of those situations. And then I started looking at the numbers, and I compared the number of competitors who play, like, just play in competitions, not actually who's at nationals, but the number of people who play in competitions. versus the number of people who are registered curlers. And then on top of that, the number of people who are potential curlers or who curl like once in a season. And the number is like 3% of the regular curlers are competitors. And we kept talking about the strength of our system is how full the playdowns are. And I kept thinking we're thinking about this wrong. The strength of our system needs to be How full are the facilities where our game is played? And whether that's a competition, like an actual play down, or whether that's some sort of a fun event or a fun something that just brings people in and creates that community that we've been talking about, I j I just thought we're thinking of this in the wrong light. We're thinking of one piece of a much larger system. And that's sort of where I first saw that data was the first time that I started thinking, we're looking at this a little wrong, and we need to figure out a way to look at this in a different light. Kyle Jahns (04:33) And I think that's pretty true. I think of how numbers used to be based on, you know, how many people were competing in playdowns and like back in the early days of the Brier, the sixties and seventies, that's just like that's what the clubs thrived on having, and that's what they based it on. Nolan Thiessen (04:51) Right. And and it was you know, it was amazing when everyone who entered, you know, a men's league and a women's league in Canada or a mixed league played in play downs, right? Like if you entered a league was cause you also then went in play downs and then that's when we had, you know, clubs that went into regionals that went into zones and went into, you know, a provincials or a territorials and then leading to the nationals. That being said, there's a ton of people now who are members of a club, and their reason for being a member of a club is not just for that play down process, right? It's for so much more than that. And a lot of times it's they actually don't want to play in that super competitive piece of it. there's this talk of, you know, this is what the play downs look like thirty or forty years ago and and we've seen this gradual change in how the play downs are played and and we just keep hoping for something instead of worrying about what it is right now and how do we maximize both avenues of play downs and a competitive structure, but also grassroots and recreational and that sense of belonging and community. Kyle Jahns (06:01) And so that I think kinda leads into the next thing that I wanted to talk about, which was what has actually changed since those days. I mean, we live in a very different world from Back then where you know everyone's attentions are maybe shorter, everybody's bouncing like all these different commitments. There's so many other activities that you can do that aren't necessarily related to curling or other sports. So like everyone's attention is is divided, and I think that has led to people wanting to maybe experience the sport, but not in the same way that we used to. So what's kind of changed over the years that you've noticed Nolan Thiessen (06:40) it's more than just me, right? This isn't just I've noticed it. I think you hear about it when you when you go sit and talk to people in clubs and club development and you know, just various leaders, you know, lives are different. Parents schedule their kids' lives and then schedule their own lives and and there's oftentimes their kids' lives are so busy that why would they want to take their one day out of the week that they get to be at home and then also go out and do something, right? I think where we live as Canadians has changed. If you look at stats can data between the number of people who lived just in a rural defined as rural community versus more urban centers, that has changed as well. volunteering, right? The idea of I'm gonna I'm gonna like I think they call it micro volunteering, right? People still want to volunteer like Human beings still like to give back to things that they that that really matter to them, right? So it's not as though people don't ever want to volunteer, but how they do it and what they get out of it, there should be a a larger sense of accomplishment as opposed to just doing this, otherwise, this place is gonna crumble. those types of things have changed. And then, you know, we s we've we see it with that future sport commission report that came out. Sports are funded now for both things, right? They're funded to get people to play sport because we're a better nation if people play sport and belong in sport. But then they also want the high performance realm, right? So they're not they don't want one or the other. And just seeing all of those factors and understanding what the data was telling us about the number of people who play in play downs, I think for us it's just We first have to change that mindset that as long as we look after play downs, everything else will be okay. And then once we change that mindset, then we can have the real conversation about how do we how do we deliver our sport that that can be different, right? Like what is done at a club in Toronto or Calgary or Vancouver is different than what is done at a club in Brandon and Elbow, Saskatchewan and Kenora, Ontario and and those types of places, right? So it's just changing the conversation and and focusing on what what can actually move the needle for everybody. Kyle Jahns (09:11) And you bring up, I think we we discussed talking about some uncomfortable ideas in this chapter and going forward, and one of them is resiliency is not a strategy. curling's always been remarkably resilient, right? A club has a problem, volunteers go out and fix it. They are tight on money, they just host a fundraiser in the community, they get the money, they they put it in, you know, they know a guy who can fix the ice compressor. Why isn't that enough anymore? Nolan Thiessen (09:43) Well, just 'cause I mean you we s you see it eventually eventually g you know, goodwill and hard work and you know, hoping for you know, the a a certain grant to come in. you know, eventually you hit the point where, you know, you can't deliver the sport for a while until all that funding comes in, right? There's just a lapse in in sport delivery. I think it's not enough to just say, well, we'll fix the problem when it's there. there's a lot of way that we deliver our sport in this country that people need to take a step back and go, okay, what do we need to do five years from now? What do we need to do 10 years from now? Therefore, what do we need to start planning on today? What what needs to change today so that 10 years from now we can make this change, right? Kyle Jahns (10:31) We were just talking a little bit about What's a curler, right? It's not just the people who are invested in in play downs, but those who experience curling So for for maybe those who don't understand, like or maybe question it, what is a curler to you? Is it someone we register numbers in regards to people who just walk in the door and try curling once through through an event? And like how important is kind of that more casual curler to the total ecosystem Nolan Thiessen (11:02) Well, I mean like yeah, anybody who curls in a season or participates in our sport in some way is a part of our ecosystem, right? Our ecosystem is not just registered members. I look at I look at other sports, right? Like I I consider myself a golfer. I'm not a member of a golf club anywhere, right? And I think that's the sa that's a similar thing that I love our sport to be able to to do more of people say I am a curler and it might be I go in two spiels a year, one for work and one with my friends, or you know, there's always a local, you know, there's a local spiel that, you know, I'll go in and support the club every year. And it's my one weekend that I curl every year. You're you're still a curler. You're still contributing to the system, right? I think that's those are the types of things as well. And then how we measure retention. is an interesting question that I love to s discuss, right? How many people do we bring in? How many people do we expose and and share our game with? And then how for how how many of them stay in year one? How many of them are still there in year two and three and four? those are are the metrics and the and the the way to create Just a di a different way to think about our game and think about what we're delivering and not just concentrate on one aspect and and think this is the only metric that matters. I like saying to people when I say if if in ten years from now we had ten percent less facilities, but we had ten percent more curlers than we have today, would you take it? And I think everybody would. Nobody wants it to be their club, but everybody would. and that's exactly what I mean is sitting there going, making sure that bringing people in. Providing them experiences that that that they believe is important to them and makes them feel good about being a part of the system is as is as important and to everybody as just saying, how many leagues do I have and ha and are they full? Kyle Jahns (13:19) Have a future discussion on grassroots, but one of the things that I love and have seen at some curling facilities that I want to see in more across the country are like little sectioned-off windowed leagues where it's maybe like a six-week commitment instead of a full 24-week commitment. Because personally speaking, I've had so many people Throughout my entire life being like, I love the idea of curl. Like you're a curler, that sounds fun. I've always been interested in it. And then it's like, yeah, you you'd you want to be part of it. But then I kind of get a little stuck. It's like, I don't know how to actually introduce you to the sport because you either have to commit to a 10 to 12 week learn to curl, which by the way, I think is a wonderful thing for people who want to commit to that. But there's also people who just want to step on the ice, maybe get a quick 30 to an hour crash course and just go and throw some rocks in a fun environment with some music playing in the background and focus on the social aspect instead of necessarily what the scoreboard says. And curling does not have that at a majority of the of the facilities around Canada. Nolan Thiessen (14:32) Yeah, I was at a str a Strat Plan discussion with with our director of club development a couple of years ago and he said an interesting line that I I kinda giggled at when he said, you know, as a sport, often we bring people into into a a learned curl and then we try to get to sign them up for a league and it it's kind of the equivalent of asking someone to marry you on the first date. And he said, you know, like somebody who has slid on curling ice, you know, twenty times and had an super enjoyable time at a learned to curl, and then saying, Are you are you willing to play twenty two of the next twenty four weeks eight ends of curling i is a scary proposition, right? Do we still need those long right? Like Absolutely. We still need like I'm a part of a every Thursday night league in in Edmonton. That's what I want. That's how I want to participate. my teammates may kind of laugh because my job d does have some Kyle Jahns (15:43) Every Thursday, sure. Nolan Thiessen (15:44) yeah, every every Thursday's a a loose term. but Kyle Jahns (15:47) Every third Thursday. Nolan Thiessen (15:48) that but that being said, I I think providing those opportunities for short easily You know, people can make a commitment, people can look at their calendar and go, I can commit to the next four weeks. It's hard to sit there right now on October eighth and say, I can commit to it every single Thursday through the end of March. I think there's a lot of people who just say, I I I can't, because if it hasn't been a regular part of your life, it it's it's nerve-wracking to be able to do that. So I think that's That's exactly right. I think there's a lot of opportunity there for our sports system to provide different opportunities for people, right? It's not sitting there going, we can't have the twenty-four week league. It's saying we need to have this and this. Kyle Jahns (16:41) so Nolan, the other thing that we discuss or that you discuss in this chapter, but we collectively, curling, you kinda make a point that curling needs to go to therapy. It has a bit of a self-esteem issue. I say that jokingly, of course, but there there is a little bit about that. Can you talk me through that concept? Nolan Thiessen (17:01) Yeah, I mean I I I say how we're on we undervalue ourselves. to just think that we're just delivering a sport for Canada to play is undervaluing what we've been for, upwards of two hundred years in this country. We've had curling clubs that have provided like to me, all of our facilities in this country. are our community hubs. any place that I've lived in my life where I can feel a larger community pride, it it's infectious. And encurling that is exactly that, right? When you walk in the doors and someone welcomes you and you b you' you feel a part of of something bigger because you know you're you're a part of a of a community within your your wherever you live. You know, I think that's the value that we're providing to Canada, right? We're providing we're providing Canadiana, we're providing national pride, we're community building in in large and small communities from coast to coast to coast. thinking that we're just providing a sport where people slide a stone up and down the ice and sweep it. I think way undervalues what we actually are. Kyle Jahns (18:20) It's kind of like I compare it to being like the humble friend who, you know, they they do a lot of great things, but they don't necess and contribute a lot to your life, but they don't necessarily tell anyone about it. They don't brag. They don't wanna become across as like cocky or that type of thing. But I think that's kind of the narrative shift and also this how we, all as curlers in Canada and part of this community, need to shift how we talk about it. And I know you've said this in the past as well, is we gotta stop talking about it being a dying sport and talk about no it brings it brings value, it brings connection, it brings all these other things that other sports don't bring. And that's the story that we need to tell. Nolan Thiessen (19:02) And you know, we're lucky enough to be a sport that you can start at any point, right? It it provides true sport for life for people, People can start curling at any age and they can be a part of a community for a really long time. you know, my baseball career is overcause my elbow doesn't work. Do I love baseball? Do I wish I could throw a baseball as hard as I did when I was 17 for the rest of my life? Absolutely. But I can curl. I can't curl as good as I used to, but I can curl for the rest of my life. Right. And and and when I can't get in the hack anymore, I'll, you know, be able to slide the stone up and down the ice. I I look at different opportunities that I've I've had that showcases this. And I was thinking about this when when you asked the question. The last Brier I played in was in 2016 and in Ottawa. And less than a week later, the following Friday, I was in the Miami-Manitoba Curling Club, and I was playing in a Bond spiel with my grandma, who had a stick, and my two cousins who had curled probably ten times combined in their life. And then me, who was playing in the Brier seven days before that, right? And we're on the ice playing against families and we're playing against, other teams that were like grandsons and granddaughters all the way up to grandparents or parents and their kids. And I remember thinking even at the time, how amazing is our sport that somebody could do this, right? Like, How amazing is it that we can provide that? And that's what we need to value as much as, the medals and the number of people in play downs and and all those other things that that matter, absolutely, but the real underlying piece of it is that. Kyle Jahns (21:07) You had asked a really powerful question at the end of the chapter that if curling disappeared from your community tomorrow, what would be lost beyond the game itself? What would your answer be? Nolan Thiessen (21:22) Well, I mean, y you look at society, you you made the comment earlier in this in in our conversation about, you know, people with their, you know, cell phones and and and being more connected to the world but at the same time never more disconnected. And losing places like curling facilities where people are allowed to come together and have human interaction and and that sense of that sense of being a part of something larger, that's what you lose. That's that's what's gone w when you lose those facilities. And, you know, that community and that community pride is and nation pride is so important and the thing that we want to continue to encourage people to to really focus on as much as just saying, well there's no more curling in town. No, there's the community the the community and community pride is lost when when when you can't provide those opportunities. Kyle Jahns (22:29) So you mentioned that we're at a crossroads. what do you think the actual choice is for us right now at this point? What are what are the two avenues we're looking at? Nolan Thiessen (22:40) I think if if we just think that the consumption patterns of our sport from thirty, forty, fifty years ago are recreatable today, then we will then I think in a lot of places in this country we'll slowly erode. if we start thinking about how we can provide different consumption for our sport and different ways to be a part of it, you know, not removing what we've always done, but then adding more to it. thinking about how we plan, invest, and deliver in our sport. you know, I think we're gonna build even more community and we're gonna have even more you know, pride when someone says, I'm a curler. and that's those are those are kind of the two paths. Like I I've always said, you know, I don't think curling is going from eight hundred and fifty facilities to zero in this country. You know, but it would be it would be a shame if if it was only in urban centers or if it was only in rural centers where you could where you could curl. I think it needs to be it needs to be in both and it needs to provide that that community hub however it means. And as I said that community hub in an area of Edmonton or that community hub in the Miami Curling Club that I was talking about is is different and that's okay, that but they're still providing that community hub. Kyle Jahns (24:05) If our listeners could take one thing away from this discussion today, Nolan, what would you like that to be? Nolan Thiessen (24:15) Be just open your mind to be able to think differently. Don't don't don't look at our sport as well, this is what I remember it as, so therefore it's in decline. Look at it and sit there and go, There's still a ton of people in this country who curl. just be able to think differently, be able to sit there and say, How do we plan and how do we deliver our sport differently in the future? so that it remains strong.